'what do you think about skepticism in general?' -I think it's not only the most intellectually honest position, but also the healthiest position in pragmatic terms. Scepticism shoehorns a 'gap' of thought between stimulus and response, so that we don't react in pat, non-thinking reflexes - we stop to consider; we act with more awareness and spontaneity.
Thank you for these two videos. I thought I was Christian, and firm in my beliefs, saved. And then the Jehovah Witnesses started showing up. And no matter how much I politely refused, they ignored me and kept coming back. I began to feel like my driveway belonged to Kingdom Hall they showed up so often. I asked to be put on a do not call list. That didn’t work. My pleasant refusals turned into barely respectful refusals which turned into righteousness, my beliefs better and kinder than theirs. But still they persisted. Weekly, several times a week...they beat a path to my door. So I turned to the internet to figure out how to get rid of them. Most of those suggestions didn’t work. Then I started watching the documentaries, saw all the denial, the rampant sexual abuse, the fact that...in order to practice their religion, they had to constantly involve non-JWs in order to remain in good standing. I was outraged that they used me merely to fill in their own scorecards, and that they were just so misguided and wrong. If they would just be regular mainstream Christians they would be far better off. And then I realized I was beginning to dehumanize them the way they were doing to me. And suddenly...the Emperor had no clothes. I have a lot of work to do, and no, it’s not comfortable, but there is no way to UNSEE the naked Emperor. So thank you for your videos.
I’ve heard a rumor that a sure way to keep JWs away is to post a sign near your door: Jehovahs Witness Apostate, or even just “Apostate”. Sort of like garlic against vampires. Unless I’m very much mistaken. Try it.
"..everything feels so pointless.." This kind of thing makes me rather indignant. Bullies like C.S. Lewis assert over and over again that the fundamental 'reason' for life is to participate in a relationship with Christ/God. The reaction to this, to someone who's been indoctrinated, is that if there is no divine being to relate with, there is no purpose to life. What a terrible lie to tell to children, regardless of how well-intentioned the proponents of this lie are.
The other day I was talking to my dad (who is a Jehovah’s Witness) about our differing beliefs. When I explained my belief that there is no true tri-omni god when we look at the world around us, his response was to get a troubled look on his face and half scream, “well if there is no god and no higher meaning for us then what is the point of anything? We might as well have never lived at all.” It almost made me bawl hearing him say that and seeing how much the idea of what I saying truly scared him. Subjective personal meaning in one’s live is a priceless freedom to me having been raised in a high control group, so I have only pity for the people that truly feel as my dad does.
@@GraceGrimoire yeah, I used to feel that way. I was taught that God was necessary for life to have meaning, and when I began to have doubts about my faith it terrified me, not just because I was questioning things I had believed all my life, but because I thought that if there is no God, no higher purpose or plan, then life was meaningless. Thankfully I was able to get past all that, and I’m happier now then I ever was as a Christian. But I still resent that I had to be put through such painful all encompassing disillusionment to find the truth, and it’s so insidious that so much of the guilt and shame I felt was entirely unfounded, and was only present because of what I had been taught to believe from birth.
5:07 Not to mention the fact that, if a christian is mortally sick and recovers, all this does is increase the chance that they'll eventually lose their faith and end up in hell. One of the things that kept my faith going so long was the stories my father, a pastor, would tell me about the supposedly miraculous healings he had prayed for and observed. But several of those people, I learned as I grew older, later became arrogant or complacent and rejected their faith, believing that they had recovered on their own. (Which is true, as it happens.) My point is, why snatch people back to this terrible planet, where their faith is in danger and where they experience suffering, if we believe that upon death they will be transported to a mystical paradise where their salvation is never in danger again and they experience nothing but bliss? Praying for a fellow christian to survive a life threatening experience is actually, from a logical standpoint, a selfish and borderline sadistic action. Much better to let them die instead.
I've read many replies to this video that go something like, "Nothing is objective. Everyone has their own reality (beliefs) they live by." This type of statement is used to make religious claims and atheistic claims equal. But the truth is, while there is a degree of subjectivity to every experience, they are not all subjective. They're not even mostly subjective all of the time. There are experiences that we can share with people in which each person can independently validate what occurred. If 5 people witnessed an event, and they all told the same story without any communication between them, then certainly the experience was not completely subjective. This video is making the point that beliefs should be based in verifiable evidence. True, we all have biases and subjective opinions given us by our upbringing, which Theramine admits in the video. Like he said, it's disingenuous to say that all statements/facts/beliefs are equally subjective, because they are not. The whole point of science is to distinguish between what is perceived to be true, and what is actually true.
How can belief or faith be based on fact? People believe what they want to believe. I do not believe science can prove or disprove there is a God .*Subjective view point* I really do not have a problem with people believing or not believing in God. I do not think this is about science though, it is about belief. If you want to justify your belief by using science go ahead. why should belief be based on verifiable evidence? it is not necessary to belief. What is verifiable evidence, something that can be refuted? Equally subjective was not a word I used subjective yes. Everyone starts from a subjective point of view, a hypothesis.
Why should beliefs be based in evidence? Because if there is no evidence supporting your beliefs, then what you have is nothing more than wishful thinking? What do you base your beliefs on? The word belief maybe a bit of a misnomer here, but the point is there are many things we all except as true tentatively, because our knowledge and experience seems to suggest that it is so. I call that belief, not faith. When it comes to believing a god exists, this "belief" is entirely based on faith. There are many arguments that people present as "evidence" that this god exists, but they all fall way short of evidence. There are varying definitions of faith, but the unifying idea is that faith is believing something for which there is no evidence, usually due to some inner conviction. Subjective feelings and experiences, while personally meaningful to the individual, do not and cannot prove that the individual's interpretation of the experience is accurate. As a matter of fact, in a court of law, eyewitness account is considered one of, if not the, most unreliable form of evidence there is. Humans are badly prone to remembering things wrong while fully convinced they are remembering correctly. That is why we have the scientific method, to independently and objectively evaluate evidence and have it reviewed by multiple people to ensure the absence of bias.
+Carol I know this is 3 years old. But I want to insert my 2 cents: *why should belief be based on verifiable evidence? it is not necessary to belief.* Because it is useful to do so. Would you go into a operating room because the "surgeon" sincerely believes he is qualified, even though he just woke up to that belief? This is actually a matter of survival. If you don't base a good portion of your beliefs onto reality you will just not live to tell the tale or be destructive to other. thousands of breatharian/witch doctors/homeopath coocoo payed this price
Here we can differentiate between belief & knowledge. A common epistemological definition of knowledge is true, justified belief. If you have faith, defined here as faith without evidence, then you don’t have knowledge of the phenomenon, since even if it’s true you’re not justified in believing it. That’s a rough argument for brevity
'where does it say in any actual religion " if they dont believe in me they should be cast away or hated"??? no where' - Where are you getting this from? "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" is one of MANY bible quotes used to cast out unbelievers.
On behalf of me and Qualia, thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed the death videos. It was heartening and moving to see people engaging with that tender subject so readily and openly. Salutations from across the pond! Theramin.
Thanks. The internet wasn't around when I was breaking out of my childhood indoctrination, so it's great to have that tool now and for us all to be able to share our thoughts on these issues.
Well, that's misquoted, and it's disputed whether Rossetti said anything to that effect, though it's attributed to him. But in any case, the sentiment is nonsense. As an atheist myself, I have an appreciation for my good fortunes without feeling any need to thank any false entity or personification.
'The atheist Delusion! .... If we follow the chain of causality back, we will ultimately reach the primary cause. Let us say that cause is not God, but matter. Tell us who created primary matter.' -Do you see how the question 'who created primary matter' already presupposes that someone created it? The default isn't that someone made it, unless proved otherwise. The intellectually honest default is 'We don't know, until we have evidence of what happened'. Is there a problem with 'We don't know'?
Absolutely lucid and wonderful. I'm sure it will be over many believers' heads but I'm sure it does much to educate and inspire the atheist community that has to deal with them, which is always a good thing.
This is great. I get so caught up in the physical sciences (damn you, Thunderf00t!) that I often neglect looking at the psychological aspects of religious belief. Great video! Thank you!
The image that comes to mind with this transition is waking out of a coma - the exhaustion of using unused muscles. I think there are often 3 stages of reaction: a) wanting to sink back into the coma [attached to the past]; b) remain on the bed [detached from the past]; c) inspiration, perhaps from goals, to build up and move on [embracing the future]. I think we move through these stages at our own pace. Hopefully, knowing we're not alone can help. I wish you well. ;8)
I've always noticed that there was something just slightly different between the various research scientists who have taught my college classes and the very dogmatically religious (or just anti-science) people I've met, but I've never been able to put my finger on it until now. I guess that the difference is that scientists accept that they do not know something currently and that they need to do more work.
Thanks gavtronics - I'm glad the concepts came through to people. I did a lecture on this a couple of years ago and the audience struggled. I was quite shocked, because the congruence concept had really facilitated my thinking on a lot of social phenomena. But I thought I'd try again here - and most people seem to have had no trouble with it!
while watching this, I had a candle lit in my room. and out of nowhere it started flickering and burning brighter. my immediate thought was: it must be a sign from God or a ghost. I've been an atheist for about 3 years now, and it sucks that religion is still burned into my brain
Don't be to rude to yourself... this kind ognf thing can happen to people that never believed in anything. :) While cleaning my new houses, I heard voices. First though: "that's the neighbours", but, seconds after: "no, that's not possible! Ghosts?" I almost slapped myself, searched was what happening (I was not sure searching it aline was a giid idea) and found out it was the wind through an aeration whole in my kitchen. I swear I had been in surnatural panick if I hearded the "voices" for the first time in the middle of the night...
Man, your videos are just great. I love the way you present your point calmy, yet determined. If I wasn't an atheist already, your videos would help me become one. Cheers mate and keep up the good work!
I'm glad I discovered your videos. They're wonderful. You're clear and concise, your graphics illustrate your points, rather than being a distraction (like some I've seen), and you don't have loud music competing with your voice. Well done!
'Just posted this on an FB page I co-run: I fucking hate pseudoscience. Cheers!' -Thanks. Though I'm not on FB, I fucking hate pseudoscience too. I made a video devoted to that specific subject earlier this year called: 'science' of the gaps.
Thanks PoDReligion. I wanted to get these big videos out this weekend, but I look forward to having some space for a good sit down with a cup of tea, and watching all the videos that you and others have attached!
Love the videos, all really interesting. I steer clear of religion, and have considered myself an atheist several times in my life. However, I have started to think Atheism is also just another belief system, another label, within which distortions occur. I find atheism can only ignore and distort the countless accounts of paranormal experiences people claim to have, e.g. out of body experiences. Often saying these are tricks of the mind, and disregarding them. Like religion, aheism seems to...
Atheism is about lack of belief in any god. Nothing more, nothing less. Atheist can still believe in supernatural without contradicting themself - heck, some sects of religions like buddhism are atheist, since members don't believe that any god exists. Church of Satan is bunch of atheists who troll christians, protect people from abuse by misuse of religious freedom, and want to have community with rituals and traditions. Most atheists are sceptics, too, so they don't believe in supernatural because believers haven't given any piece of evidence that supernatural exists. There is no evidence that out of body experiences etc. are caused by anything supernatural, only claims. Why should we think, that when theist claims that something divine paranormal thing (like "holy" ghost talking to them) they has misunderstood cause of their experience and there is other explanation, but when someone claims that some other paranormal thing happened (like out of body experience) we should think that their understanding of cause of their experience is right instead of there being other explanation? Why should we take people's word that cause of their experience is right cause, since we know that people have misunderstood what causes their experiences? Is it really that atheists are dogmatic, or that you have changed faith from religious to paranormal/spiritual, aka you're dogmatic?
Thank you kindly Bobbie. ;8) I've just had so many messages from people responding to stuff on here and talking about their doubts, I really wanted to do something to honour that - one of the many upsides of the internet is the way it reaches right into your living room/bedroom, so that people going through this stuff don't have to feel quite as alone.
After months of watching your videos, I still can't fully express how much I am in awe and grateful w/ your videos. This is another brilliant way of explaining and reinforcing my non-belief. The first one (atheism as a null hypothesis) is just as amazing as this one! I'm actually just a borderline atheist but I deeply appreciate your videos. Kudos to you and to your twin. Our numbers are growing and I can feel that humanity is evolving into something more compassionate and integral.
These videos are absolutely brilliant. Your experience and your eloquent reasoning provide something I think alot of people need. Refreshing to see someone reaching out instead of shutting out. Keep it up!
Thanks Lihiro - for your comments on *both* videos ;8) There've been some productive, honest exchanges on this - from people in various groups. My feeling is all forward movement - particularly movement away from irrational fear - is good, so it's been very heartening. Cheers! Theramin.
Thanks cjdlguy - particularly for that word 'clarity'. I gave a lecture on the congruence Venn diagram a couple of years ago and I gathered people struggled with it a little. And I had a lot longer than 8 minutes there, so I was dubious about using it here. But I think it's a remarkable model - that allows us to examine our denials and distortions privately - without threat of external judgement. If this video's communicated the concept effectively, I'm really chuffed! ;8)
Thanks Zigiwy - I'd wanted to do this diptych for a while, and with the PMs I was getting it seemed the right time. THe subsequent correspondence I've received from even more people currently in transition, as well as those who've been through it already, is encouraging too!
@redrubberball First this video is not talking about knowing there is no god - but having a lack of belief, which is appropriate considering the absence of any evidence. So let's be clear about that context. Second, I've had it put to me that I'm filtering out 'god' before - I addressed that in my video 'A private religious experience' and subsequently in 'Seeing isn't believing'.
I was going to make videos using psychological models to address religious beliefs. Now I don't have to: I couldn't do better than this. Keep up the good work, TT.
Thanks, great video! A few months ago, a friend was asking me what comfort there was in atheism. I told him that I no longer suffered from the cognitive dissonance that I felt when I was a Christian - the "Person-Centred Theory" explains this more eloquently. Thanks, again.
To TheraminTrees, Thank you for taking the time to answer. I believe that Schemas is indeed what I was looking for :) Schemas is a fascinating concept which would suggest that the more we use a particular schema it would have a stronger and faster mental impact.
Damn you're good at this, Theramin. I've caught myself channeling your tone and mode of discourse in arguments recently. Your videos are very much appreciated.
Theramin Trees, I cannot tell you how deeply you and Qualia Soup have impacted my way of thinking. You put things in such a rational, eye-opening way that one cannot at least question his/her belief system without watching these videos. I particularly enjoyed your videos on death, and how to help cope with its impending inevitability. With complete sincerity I say THANK YOU! Please do not stop making videos. Love from an Atheist in America.
That was beautifully articulated. My conversion, and following, up until now, did not and has not gone deeply into "why I believed", it has been more about why I did not and do not believe. This was very insightful and helps me understand the "why I believed" question. Thank You.
I just want to say this: Your videos are FANTASTIC! I've seen a few youtubers who deal with creationism or religion, and several do an excellent job. None, however, have quite the same style, nor angle, that you do. I find the psychological angle very interesting, and the relaxed and calm style very appealing. Best of all, the visuals and the script support one another and make for REAL CLEAR presentation. Keep up the awesome work, and THANK YOU!
Snap - I voiced that very feeling in the video, of something feeling very wrong, because I never 'experienced' a god the way others seemed to claim. I wonder just how many others have felt that way.
Already the theist distortions have started trickling in - always curious about what shape they'll take. I relate to what you say about sharing with the atheist community, some say I'm 'preaching to the converted' - not so: it's ALWAYS about sharing ideas. Cheers Evid3nc3.
As with Bailey above, thank you HurricaneHeidi! I've raced to get these two videos out this weekend, itching to watch the videos other people have put up about their own deconversion - that means yours! ;8)
Thanks Abbey - I'm glad it came over. I did a lecture on these concepts of denial and distortion a couple of years ago, and people generally seemed to find it hard to grasp, but I thought I'd put it out there. ;8)
I love the visual showing the conflict in beliefs and experience. I would argue that science isn't as unscathed by preconceptions as many would like to believe. As social animals, we are still inclined to make the science fit our beliefs. There are many scientific "facts" that I am not allowed to challenge without encountering the pushback attributed to the religious in the video.
Can you give examples? Not that I'm accusing you of being disingenuous but most of the times where I've seen folk claim this, it is in regards to things so self-evidence that even I, as a scientifically illiterate person, can explain how they've misunderstood the data.
I really do idolize you. Thank you for bringing so much comfort to those who are going through very hard times. You are a great role model (mentally- I cant judge you morally as I dont know you) and an amazing teacher. Please continue sharing your mind with us.
Thank you for this video. I saw both videos and realized i went past all the stages in less then 30 days at age 12 after both my mom and dad died of different reasons around 56 days apart. I think you should be a teacher in some collage and be a religious teacher or philosophy because of the way you describe things and it's Very good.
Hey Peter -and thanks for attaching your deconversion video. Although I've already seen it, I want to view it again with all the other deconversion stories people've attached to this video. The internet is a great resource for sharing - one many of us didn't have at the time. ;8)
What i love the most about this video is that it can (and should) be applied to all of life. Motivating your own beliefs in this way is what leads to moral integrity. Thank you for an insightful video!
The content, style and format of your videos is brilliant. I think its the complete absense of hostility thats so important in helping people to learn that scepicism is a good thing. Kind of tragic that they need to be made though.
Awesome video! I've been on the religious skepticism track for a while now, and riding it pretty hard, and I have not heard of anybody thinking this way. Very cool stuff you've got.
Fabulous video! You're amazing. I love the part about religionists' fanatical scepticism only when it comes to empirical data which oppose their dogma beliefs and fairy tales, but not to their scriptures themselves.
By pointing out the very tools used by incongruous thought processes, you have made it very difficult to distort or deny this information. Thank you for making this.
As eloquent and insightful as always Theramin. The double standards of people when it comes to evidence of God and sceptical evidence is frequently astounding.
[cont] We can talk about the inherent contradictions of the 'hell' concept - eg, as shown in the video, torturing its children cannot be the act of a 'benevolent god'. But if you want to talk about proving/disproving its existence, you then need to bring in 'burden of proof' and falsification/falsifiability. a) it's the burden of proponents of an entity/phenomenon to prove its existence - not the burden of its critics to disprove. b) the concept is not falsifiable.
I sat with various religious folks over six weeks batting bible quotes back and forth when I was in my teens - knocking back counters to every sentiment, showing a case of the reverse. The bible is *beyond* ambigious. It has everything in there to validate any number of philosophies. These days, I'm as interested in the bible as I am in any random prose generator. I'm far more intrigued by how people use it - the particular sentiments they draw out for themselves.
You certainly know how to get the grey matter working in people. The best part of it is that your presentation of facts and intelligent reasoning leave no stone unturned. There is no argumentative path to follow, because it all makes such perfect sense. As an aside, I've recalled this experience before, but will reiterate it because it's kind of pertinent to part of this video...
That really tickled me this morning. On your question of Job, I think I've only made a glancing reference to that vile story - in part one of 'there are no gods'. Your comparison with an abusive relationship is very apt - and I think one of the big parallels is this notion of 'love'. If someone asserts it's 'love' they're feeling towards someone, when they torture, or facilitate the torture of that person, then fuck their perverted 'love'.
@IrishNickO Actually, congruence can refer to congruence between self and ideal self, or between self and experience. Carl Rogers wrote about both, and wrote explicitly about the very model used in this video, saying that experiences running, quote, 'contrary to conditions of worth are perceived selectively and distorted .... or are in part or whole denied by awareness'.
@Golkarian The metaphor 'self-structure' as presented in P-C Theory deals with our pattern-searching mechanisms, building networks of associations between our experiences. Sometimes associations we make by ourselves will be dubious because we've over-generalised or attributed cause to correlation, etc.. Living alongside other pattern-seeking humans, we take on some of their associations too - again, some will be dubious, and sometimes forcibly imposed. Hopefully we unlearn a lot of it.
Great way to explain psychology, I've never got the ideas explained so clearly. It had always been presented to me like the T.V. guru who can read minds just by watching your shoes. Always thought there was something off, now I know what it was.
@nidhidhian I would first qualify 'self torture', because that downplays the fact it was provoked and maintained by others. Regarding supernatural entities, I'm getting into that in a three part video I'm doing soon. One of the points I'll be making is about the epistemological vacuum around supernatural ideas - and the need for epistemological tools if there is to be discussion beyond personal belief.
@mdiem Showers and Zeigler-Hill looked into compartmentalisation and integration within the self-structure - if you're interested, a reference is: Showers, C. J., & Zeigler-Hill, V. (2007). Compartmentalization and integration: The evaluative organization of contextualized selves. Journal of Personality, 75, 1181-1204. Cognitive dissonance evokes a conscious tension - edge of awareness or pronounced awareness, as opposed to denial/distortion which are seen more as happening outside awareness.
@Antimidation Thanks. I know some people shy away from the word 'convert' in this context - but it really just means changing from one state to another. Personally, my favourite word is 'de-programming' - which conveys an active indoctrination which was then overcome.
'By pointing out the very tools used by incongruous thought processes, you have made it very difficult to distort or deny this information.' Thanks Antipodal! Although, a brief scan through the comments will reveal the distortions are already surfacing .... ;8)
I myself am unable to be an atheist because of numerous daily personal experiences I have had with God, some of which came out of deep soul-wrenching experiences and sincere searching for truth! I try to understand those who do not know Him so I appreciate the straightforward reasoning Theramin put out. I do not pretend to be able to explain everything God is and does, but I know enough to satisfy my own heart and mind and I hope that of others! May God reveal Himself to seekers like Theramin!
It's a pleasure. The older videos might be older to me, but feel new to the viewer. Ideally, I'd like to be able to respond much more often than I can - I enjoy the interactivity.
Hey Larry! ;8) Glad you enjoyed it - I'd been wanting to do a 'transition' video for some time, just to lay it all out transparently and put to rest all the silly, ignorance-born theories about atheism stemming from immorality/rebellion, etc..
It's interesting just how similar this is to my own transition to atheism, and experience. I too started rejecting faith only after I realized I was failing to defend it. ...Though it was my older brother that I was arguing with, not a teacher. Great video by the way.
Why thank you Aaberg ;8) I'm already seeing some distortions in some theist comments. Qualia is working on a collection of new videos, which he plans to uploads over the next couple of months.
@SyKmGl You said you wished I thought critically about my assumptions. I do. You've now said assumptions are being made that are false. If you don't specify what you're referring to, I don't know what you're talking about. So, please state these assumptions, using quotes - not inferences, not what other atheists have said or might say, but what I've said. I'm not wasting my precious time denying things I've never said, and other people can defend their own position.
@jazztutorial 'Einstein also claimed that everything he came up with was from sleep, and excessive day dreaming. Yet if someone said they dreamt that God existed, an atheist might selectively deny this.' -You can't use this as a criteria - I have ideas in my dreams that work out when I wake up. But I also have dreams that are utterly unrelated to reality. The dream isn't the qualifying factor in DNA - its observable existence is.
At 5:30 - This is how religious traditions have been formed. And it is not only following other people and repeating what they said. It is more like playing Chinese whispers. In the chain, we have some defective links, like misunderstanding someone's else metaphors and, here and there, some deliberate lies. And we have ended up with fantastic stories about Muhammad recorded in Hadiths 150 years after Muhammad, we have ended up with some gossips and fabrications about Jesus recorded in the Gospels, we have ended up with untrue stories about Moses and Rabbi Akiva, and misinterpretations of the Torah recorded in the Talmud. Some ideas in the above "sources" may be inspiring, but you need to be very critical while reading them.
![false equivalents | qualiasoup & theramintrees [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/e-2WZsP6LA0/mqdefault.jpg)
![false equivalents | qualiasoup & theramintrees [cc]](/img/tr.png)
![that's a red flag? but I do that.... [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NkLM8HTYY1g/mqdefault.jpg)
A healthy scepticism of science -is- science.
EXCELLENT
Emphasis on *healthy*
Yes thank you!!!
😬
I would say a healthy skepticism of scientific conclusions, but not the scientific *method*, is science.
'what do you think about skepticism in general?'
-I think it's not only the most intellectually honest position, but also the healthiest position in pragmatic terms. Scepticism shoehorns a 'gap' of thought between stimulus and response, so that we don't react in pat, non-thinking reflexes - we stop to consider; we act with more awareness and spontaneity.
Thank you for these two videos. I thought I was Christian, and firm in my beliefs, saved. And then the Jehovah Witnesses started showing up. And no matter how much I politely refused, they ignored me and kept coming back. I began to feel like my driveway belonged to Kingdom Hall they showed up so often. I asked to be put on a do not call list. That didn’t work. My pleasant refusals turned into barely respectful refusals which turned into righteousness, my beliefs better and kinder than theirs. But still they persisted. Weekly, several times a week...they beat a path to my door. So I turned to the internet to figure out how to get rid of them. Most of those suggestions didn’t work. Then I started watching the documentaries, saw all the denial, the rampant sexual abuse, the fact that...in order to practice their religion, they had to constantly involve non-JWs in order to remain in good standing. I was outraged that they used me merely to fill in their own scorecards, and that they were just so misguided and wrong. If they would just be regular mainstream Christians they would be far better off. And then I realized I was beginning to dehumanize them the way they were doing to me. And suddenly...the Emperor had no clothes. I have a lot of work to do, and no, it’s not comfortable, but there is no way to UNSEE the naked Emperor. So thank you for your videos.
Interesting story and I hope your journey is revelatory. Thanks.
So ... did you get rid of them?
I’ve heard a rumor that a sure way to keep JWs away is to post a sign near your door: Jehovahs Witness Apostate, or even just “Apostate”. Sort of like garlic against vampires. Unless I’m very much mistaken. Try it.
I was already an atheist when i found your channel but your videos did stretghen my thought and opions with proper evidence and explinations
"..everything feels so pointless.."
This kind of thing makes me rather indignant. Bullies like C.S. Lewis assert over and over again that the fundamental 'reason' for life is to participate in a relationship with Christ/God. The reaction to this, to someone who's been indoctrinated, is that if there is no divine being to relate with, there is no purpose to life. What a terrible lie to tell to children, regardless of how well-intentioned the proponents of this lie are.
The other day I was talking to my dad (who is a Jehovah’s Witness) about our differing beliefs. When I explained my belief that there is no true tri-omni god when we look at the world around us, his response was to get a troubled look on his face and half scream, “well if there is no god and no higher meaning for us then what is the point of anything? We might as well have never lived at all.” It almost made me bawl hearing him say that and seeing how much the idea of what I saying truly scared him. Subjective personal meaning in one’s live is a priceless freedom to me having been raised in a high control group, so I have only pity for the people that truly feel as my dad does.
@@GraceGrimoire so your dad was brainwashed to think that only thing worth of anything is kissing his god's ass? 😔
@@GraceGrimoire yeah, I used to feel that way. I was taught that God was necessary for life to have meaning, and when I began to have doubts about my faith it terrified me, not just because I was questioning things I had believed all my life, but because I thought that if there is no God, no higher purpose or plan, then life was meaningless.
Thankfully I was able to get past all that, and I’m happier now then I ever was as a Christian. But I still resent that I had to be put through such painful all encompassing disillusionment to find the truth, and it’s so insidious that so much of the guilt and shame I felt was entirely unfounded, and was only present because of what I had been taught to believe from birth.
5:07 Not to mention the fact that, if a christian is mortally sick and recovers, all this does is increase the chance that they'll eventually lose their faith and end up in hell. One of the things that kept my faith going so long was the stories my father, a pastor, would tell me about the supposedly miraculous healings he had prayed for and observed. But several of those people, I learned as I grew older, later became arrogant or complacent and rejected their faith, believing that they had recovered on their own. (Which is true, as it happens.) My point is, why snatch people back to this terrible planet, where their faith is in danger and where they experience suffering, if we believe that upon death they will be transported to a mystical paradise where their salvation is never in danger again and they experience nothing but bliss? Praying for a fellow christian to survive a life threatening experience is actually, from a logical standpoint, a selfish and borderline sadistic action. Much better to let them die instead.
I've read many replies to this video that go something like, "Nothing is objective. Everyone has their own reality (beliefs) they live by." This type of statement is used to make religious claims and atheistic claims equal. But the truth is, while there is a degree of subjectivity to every experience, they are not all subjective. They're not even mostly subjective all of the time. There are experiences that we can share with people in which each person can independently validate what occurred. If 5 people witnessed an event, and they all told the same story without any communication between them, then certainly the experience was not completely subjective. This video is making the point that beliefs should be based in verifiable evidence. True, we all have biases and subjective opinions given us by our upbringing, which Theramine admits in the video. Like he said, it's disingenuous to say that all statements/facts/beliefs are equally subjective, because they are not. The whole point of science is to distinguish between what is perceived to be true, and what is actually true.
How can belief or faith be based on fact? People believe what they want to believe. I do not believe science can prove or disprove there is a God
.*Subjective view point*
I really do not have a problem with people believing or not believing in God. I do not think this is about science though, it is about belief. If you want to justify your belief by using science go ahead. why should belief be based on verifiable evidence? it is not necessary to belief.
What is verifiable evidence, something that can be refuted?
Equally subjective was not a word I used subjective yes.
Everyone starts from a subjective point of view, a hypothesis.
Why should beliefs be based in evidence? Because if there is no evidence supporting your beliefs, then what you have is nothing more than wishful thinking? What do you base your beliefs on? The word belief maybe a bit of a misnomer here, but the point is there are many things we all except as true tentatively, because our knowledge and experience seems to suggest that it is so. I call that belief, not faith. When it comes to believing a god exists, this "belief" is entirely based on faith. There are many arguments that people present as "evidence" that this god exists, but they all fall way short of evidence. There are varying definitions of faith, but the unifying idea is that faith is believing something for which there is no evidence, usually due to some inner conviction. Subjective feelings and experiences, while personally meaningful to the individual, do not and cannot prove that the individual's interpretation of the experience is accurate. As a matter of fact, in a court of law, eyewitness account is considered one of, if not the, most unreliable form of evidence there is. Humans are badly prone to remembering things wrong while fully convinced they are remembering correctly. That is why we have the scientific method, to independently and objectively evaluate evidence and have it reviewed by multiple people to ensure the absence of bias.
+Carol
I know this is 3 years old. But I want to insert my 2 cents:
*why should belief be based on verifiable evidence? it is not necessary to belief.*
Because it is useful to do so. Would you go into a operating room because the "surgeon" sincerely believes he is qualified, even though he just woke up to that belief?
This is actually a matter of survival. If you don't base a good portion of your beliefs onto reality you will just not live to tell the tale or be destructive to other. thousands of breatharian/witch doctors/homeopath coocoo payed this price
Here we can differentiate between belief & knowledge. A common epistemological definition of knowledge is true, justified belief. If you have faith, defined here as faith without evidence, then you don’t have knowledge of the phenomenon, since even if it’s true you’re not justified in believing it. That’s a rough argument for brevity
Carol, you literally described gullibility.
'where does it say in any actual religion " if they dont believe in me they should be cast away or hated"??? no where'
- Where are you getting this from? "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" is one of MANY bible quotes used to cast out unbelievers.
On behalf of me and Qualia, thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed the death videos. It was heartening and moving to see people engaging with that tender subject so readily and openly. Salutations from across the pond! Theramin.
Thanks. The internet wasn't around when I was breaking out of my childhood indoctrination, so it's great to have that tool now and for us all to be able to share our thoughts on these issues.
Well, that's misquoted, and it's disputed whether Rossetti said anything to that effect, though it's attributed to him. But in any case, the sentiment is nonsense. As an atheist myself, I have an appreciation for my good fortunes without feeling any need to thank any false entity or personification.
Unquestionably, your videos present the best, most unemotional, most well-thought-out discussions on atheism.
'The atheist Delusion! .... If we follow the chain of causality back, we will ultimately reach the primary cause. Let us say that cause is not God, but matter. Tell us who created primary matter.'
-Do you see how the question 'who created primary matter' already presupposes that someone created it? The default isn't that someone made it, unless proved otherwise. The intellectually honest default is 'We don't know, until we have evidence of what happened'. Is there a problem with 'We don't know'?
TheraminTrees ?
Absolutely lucid and wonderful. I'm sure it will be over many believers' heads but I'm sure it does much to educate and inspire the atheist community that has to deal with them, which is always a good thing.
This is great. I get so caught up in the physical sciences (damn you, Thunderf00t!) that I often neglect looking at the psychological aspects of religious belief. Great video! Thank you!
The image that comes to mind with this transition is waking out of a coma - the exhaustion of using unused muscles. I think there are often 3 stages of reaction: a) wanting to sink back into the coma [attached to the past]; b) remain on the bed [detached from the past]; c) inspiration, perhaps from goals, to build up and move on [embracing the future]. I think we move through these stages at our own pace. Hopefully, knowing we're not alone can help. I wish you well. ;8)
I've always noticed that there was something just slightly different between the various research scientists who have taught my college classes and the very dogmatically religious (or just anti-science) people I've met, but I've never been able to put my finger on it until now.
I guess that the difference is that scientists accept that they do not know something currently and that they need to do more work.
such good points in this. Maybe one day you could do a 'best of TheraminTrees' video, with all your strongest points back to back.
You have a fantastic voice. I do hope you consider additional creative mediums where you get to use it!
Thanks gavtronics - I'm glad the concepts came through to people. I did a lecture on this a couple of years ago and the audience struggled. I was quite shocked, because the congruence concept had really facilitated my thinking on a lot of social phenomena. But I thought I'd try again here - and most people seem to have had no trouble with it!
while watching this, I had a candle lit in my room. and out of nowhere it started flickering and burning brighter. my immediate thought was: it must be a sign from God or a ghost. I've been an atheist for about 3 years now, and it sucks that religion is still burned into my brain
Don't be to rude to yourself... this kind ognf thing can happen to people that never believed in anything. :) While cleaning my new houses, I heard voices. First though: "that's the neighbours", but, seconds after: "no, that's not possible! Ghosts?" I almost slapped myself, searched was what happening (I was not sure searching it aline was a giid idea) and found out it was the wind through an aeration whole in my kitchen.
I swear I had been in surnatural panick if I hearded the "voices" for the first time in the middle of the night...
Man, your videos are just great. I love the way you present your point calmy, yet determined. If I wasn't an atheist already, your videos would help me become one.
Cheers mate and keep up the good work!
@TheraminTrees
Good point. I think I agree
I'm glad I discovered your videos. They're wonderful. You're clear and concise, your graphics illustrate your points, rather than being a distraction (like some I've seen), and you don't have loud music competing with your voice. Well done!
'Just posted this on an FB page I co-run: I fucking hate pseudoscience. Cheers!'
-Thanks. Though I'm not on FB, I fucking hate pseudoscience too. I made a video devoted to that specific subject earlier this year called: 'science' of the gaps.
TheraminTrees thank you for all the videos you put on. they help me understand the world a lot better than I used to. and it helped me a lot.
Thanks PoDReligion. I wanted to get these big videos out this weekend, but I look forward to having some space for a good sit down with a cup of tea, and watching all the videos that you and others have attached!
Love the videos, all really interesting.
I steer clear of religion, and have considered myself an atheist several times in my life. However, I have started to think Atheism is also just another belief system, another label, within which distortions occur. I find atheism can only ignore and distort the countless accounts of paranormal experiences people claim to have, e.g. out of body experiences. Often saying these are tricks of the mind, and disregarding them. Like religion, aheism seems to...
Atheism is about lack of belief in any god. Nothing more, nothing less.
Atheist can still believe in supernatural without contradicting themself - heck, some sects of religions like buddhism are atheist, since members don't believe that any god exists. Church of Satan is bunch of atheists who troll christians, protect people from abuse by misuse of religious freedom, and want to have community with rituals and traditions.
Most atheists are sceptics, too, so they don't believe in supernatural because believers haven't given any piece of evidence that supernatural exists. There is no evidence that out of body experiences etc. are caused by anything supernatural, only claims.
Why should we think, that when theist claims that something divine paranormal thing (like "holy" ghost talking to them) they has misunderstood cause of their experience and there is other explanation, but when someone claims that some other paranormal thing happened (like out of body experience) we should think that their understanding of cause of their experience is right instead of there being other explanation? Why should we take people's word that cause of their experience is right cause, since we know that people have misunderstood what causes their experiences?
Is it really that atheists are dogmatic, or that you have changed faith from religious to paranormal/spiritual, aka you're dogmatic?
Thank you kindly Bobbie. ;8) I've just had so many messages from people responding to stuff on here and talking about their doubts, I really wanted to do something to honour that - one of the many upsides of the internet is the way it reaches right into your living room/bedroom, so that people going through this stuff don't have to feel quite as alone.
I don't really remember how I become atheist but I think it's after I read Jed McKenna's books. "No belief is true"
After months of watching your videos, I still can't fully express how much I am in awe and grateful w/ your videos. This is another brilliant way of explaining and reinforcing my non-belief. The first one (atheism as a null hypothesis) is just as amazing as this one! I'm actually just a borderline atheist but I deeply appreciate your videos.
Kudos to you and to your twin. Our numbers are growing and I can feel that humanity is evolving into something more compassionate and integral.
❄❄❄
Thanks for posting
These videos are absolutely brilliant. Your experience and your eloquent reasoning provide something I think alot of people need. Refreshing to see someone reaching out instead of shutting out. Keep it up!
Thanks omegavalerius, both for the compliment and the resonant imagery. All the best.
Thanks Lihiro - for your comments on *both* videos ;8) There've been some productive, honest exchanges on this - from people in various groups. My feeling is all forward movement - particularly movement away from irrational fear - is good, so it's been very heartening. Cheers! Theramin.
Thanks cjdlguy - particularly for that word 'clarity'. I gave a lecture on the congruence Venn diagram a couple of years ago and I gathered people struggled with it a little. And I had a lot longer than 8 minutes there, so I was dubious about using it here. But I think it's a remarkable model - that allows us to examine our denials and distortions privately - without threat of external judgement. If this video's communicated the concept effectively, I'm really chuffed! ;8)
Thanks Zigiwy - I'd wanted to do this diptych for a while, and with the PMs I was getting it seemed the right time. THe subsequent correspondence I've received from even more people currently in transition, as well as those who've been through it already, is encouraging too!
@redrubberball First this video is not talking about knowing there is no god - but having a lack of belief, which is appropriate considering the absence of any evidence. So let's be clear about that context. Second, I've had it put to me that I'm filtering out 'god' before - I addressed that in my video 'A private religious experience' and subsequently in 'Seeing isn't believing'.
I was going to make videos using psychological models to address religious beliefs. Now I don't have to: I couldn't do better than this. Keep up the good work, TT.
Thanks, great video! A few months ago, a friend was asking me what comfort there was in atheism. I told him that I no longer suffered from the cognitive dissonance that I felt when I was a Christian - the "Person-Centred Theory" explains this more eloquently. Thanks, again.
To TheraminTrees, Thank you for taking the time to answer.
I believe that Schemas is indeed what I was looking for :)
Schemas is a fascinating concept which would suggest that the more we use a particular schema it would have a stronger and faster mental impact.
Damn you're good at this, Theramin.
I've caught myself channeling your tone and mode of discourse in arguments recently.
Your videos are very much appreciated.
Theramin Trees, I cannot tell you how deeply you and Qualia Soup have impacted my way of thinking. You put things in such a rational, eye-opening way that one cannot at least question his/her belief system without watching these videos. I particularly enjoyed your videos on death, and how to help cope with its impending inevitability. With complete sincerity I say THANK YOU! Please do not stop making videos. Love from an Atheist in America.
That was beautifully articulated. My conversion, and following, up until now, did not and has not gone deeply into "why I believed", it has been more about why I did not and do not believe.
This was very insightful and helps me understand the "why I believed" question.
Thank You.
Amazing video as always, it's almost a crime that you don't have more people watching these.
Hey, thanks GreatGig! It's been funny doing another 'talkie' after concentrating on music for so many months! ;8)
I just want to say this: Your videos are FANTASTIC! I've seen a few youtubers who deal with creationism or religion, and several do an excellent job. None, however, have quite the same style, nor angle, that you do. I find the psychological angle very interesting, and the relaxed and calm style very appealing. Best of all, the visuals and the script support one another and make for REAL CLEAR presentation. Keep up the awesome work, and THANK YOU!
Snap - I voiced that very feeling in the video, of something feeling very wrong, because I never 'experienced' a god the way others seemed to claim. I wonder just how many others have felt that way.
Already the theist distortions have started trickling in - always curious about what shape they'll take. I relate to what you say about sharing with the atheist community, some say I'm 'preaching to the converted' - not so: it's ALWAYS about sharing ideas. Cheers Evid3nc3.
Very good video, then again, I wouldn't expect anything else from you TheraminTrees. Already looking forward to the second one you're uploading today!
Lines like 'You think too much' are a gift for the obvious opposite reply! ;8)
As with Bailey above, thank you HurricaneHeidi! I've raced to get these two videos out this weekend, itching to watch the videos other people have put up about their own deconversion - that means yours! ;8)
I love the citations. Rational and logical, yet approachable. Love the theremin at the beginning btw.
Thanks Abbey - I'm glad it came over. I did a lecture on these concepts of denial and distortion a couple of years ago, and people generally seemed to find it hard to grasp, but I thought I'd put it out there. ;8)
I have watched countless videos on atheism and they are all great.
This video is the absolute best I have ever seen!
AMAZING!!!!!!!
I love the visual showing the conflict in beliefs and experience. I would argue that science isn't as unscathed by preconceptions as many would like to believe. As social animals, we are still inclined to make the science fit our beliefs. There are many scientific "facts" that I am not allowed to challenge without encountering the pushback attributed to the religious in the video.
Can you give examples?
Not that I'm accusing you of being disingenuous but most of the times where I've seen folk claim this, it is in regards to things so self-evidence that even I, as a scientifically illiterate person, can explain how they've misunderstood the data.
I really do idolize you. Thank you for bringing so much comfort to those who are going through very hard times. You are a great role model (mentally- I cant judge you morally as I dont know you) and an amazing teacher. Please continue sharing your mind with us.
Thank you for this video. I saw both videos and realized i went past all the stages in less then 30 days at age 12 after both my mom and dad died of different reasons around 56 days apart. I think you should be a teacher in some collage and be a religious teacher or philosophy because of the way you describe things and it's Very good.
Top notch Theramin. Simple (yet complex), precise and very, very true. It saddens me that many people won't learn a thing from it.
An absolutely FIRST CLASS video!
Hey Peter -and thanks for attaching your deconversion video. Although I've already seen it, I want to view it again with all the other deconversion stories people've attached to this video. The internet is a great resource for sharing - one many of us didn't have at the time. ;8)
What i love the most about this video is that it can (and should) be applied to all of life. Motivating your own beliefs in this way is what leads to moral integrity. Thank you for an insightful video!
I saw this posted on someones journal, and I found this to be a very nice watch. Thank you for taking the time to map out all of this!
The content, style and format of your videos is brilliant. I think its the complete absense of hostility thats so important in helping people to learn that scepicism is a good thing. Kind of tragic that they need to be made though.
Awesome video! I've been on the religious skepticism track for a while now, and riding it pretty hard, and I have not heard of anybody thinking this way. Very cool stuff you've got.
Fabulous video! You're amazing. I love the part about religionists' fanatical scepticism only when it comes to empirical data which oppose their dogma beliefs and fairy tales, but not to their scriptures themselves.
By pointing out the very tools used by incongruous thought processes, you have made it very difficult to distort or deny this information. Thank you for making this.
As eloquent and insightful as always Theramin. The double standards of people when it comes to evidence of God and sceptical evidence is frequently astounding.
[cont] We can talk about the inherent contradictions of the 'hell' concept - eg, as shown in the video, torturing its children cannot be the act of a 'benevolent god'. But if you want to talk about proving/disproving its existence, you then need to bring in 'burden of proof' and falsification/falsifiability. a) it's the burden of proponents of an entity/phenomenon to prove its existence - not the burden of its critics to disprove. b) the concept is not falsifiable.
I sat with various religious folks over six weeks batting bible quotes back and forth when I was in my teens - knocking back counters to every sentiment, showing a case of the reverse. The bible is *beyond* ambigious. It has everything in there to validate any number of philosophies. These days, I'm as interested in the bible as I am in any random prose generator. I'm far more intrigued by how people use it - the particular sentiments they draw out for themselves.
You certainly know how to get the grey matter working in people. The best part of it is that your presentation of facts and intelligent reasoning leave no stone unturned. There is no argumentative path to follow, because it all makes such perfect sense.
As an aside, I've recalled this experience before, but will reiterate it because it's kind of pertinent to part of this video...
Cheers wrongwayup - and welcome to the channel.
That really tickled me this morning.
On your question of Job, I think I've only made a glancing reference to that vile story - in part one of 'there are no gods'. Your comparison with an abusive relationship is very apt - and I think one of the big parallels is this notion of 'love'. If someone asserts it's 'love' they're feeling towards someone, when they torture, or facilitate the torture of that person, then fuck their perverted 'love'.
@IrishNickO Actually, congruence can refer to congruence between self and ideal self, or between self and experience. Carl Rogers wrote about both, and wrote explicitly about the very model used in this video, saying that experiences running, quote, 'contrary to conditions of worth are perceived selectively and distorted .... or are in part or whole denied by awareness'.
I’m glad I found your channel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
@Golkarian The metaphor 'self-structure' as presented in P-C Theory deals with our pattern-searching mechanisms, building networks of associations between our experiences. Sometimes associations we make by ourselves will be dubious because we've over-generalised or attributed cause to correlation, etc.. Living alongside other pattern-seeking humans, we take on some of their associations too - again, some will be dubious, and sometimes forcibly imposed. Hopefully we unlearn a lot of it.
Wow! I am truly amazed...a very exceptional video....I look forward to your next videos....
I love these videos. They're like good poetry to me - each time I watch one of them, I understand something new about its message.
This is very dense, to the point, and reflects a very good understanding of thought patterns so typical that they are not easy to concieve. Thank you.
Great way to explain psychology, I've never got the ideas explained so clearly. It had always been presented to me like the T.V. guru who can read minds just by watching your shoes. Always thought there was something off, now I know what it was.
Thanks for the food for thought TheraminTrees. You've got me ready to take a trip to the library.
@nidhidhian I would first qualify 'self torture', because that downplays the fact it was provoked and maintained by others. Regarding supernatural entities, I'm getting into that in a three part video I'm doing soon. One of the points I'll be making is about the epistemological vacuum around supernatural ideas - and the need for epistemological tools if there is to be discussion beyond personal belief.
Best two video I've seen on atheism in a long time.
@mdiem Showers and Zeigler-Hill looked into compartmentalisation and integration within the self-structure - if you're interested, a reference is: Showers, C. J., & Zeigler-Hill, V. (2007). Compartmentalization and integration: The evaluative organization of contextualized selves. Journal of Personality, 75, 1181-1204. Cognitive dissonance evokes a conscious tension - edge of awareness or pronounced awareness, as opposed to denial/distortion which are seen more as happening outside awareness.
@Antimidation Thanks. I know some people shy away from the word 'convert' in this context - but it really just means changing from one state to another. Personally, my favourite word is 'de-programming' - which conveys an active indoctrination which was then overcome.
'By pointing out the very tools used by incongruous thought processes, you have made it very difficult to distort or deny this information.'
Thanks Antipodal! Although, a brief scan through the comments will reveal the distortions are already surfacing .... ;8)
I myself am unable to be an atheist because of numerous daily personal experiences I have had with God, some of which came out of deep soul-wrenching experiences and sincere searching for truth! I try to understand those who do not know Him so I appreciate the straightforward reasoning Theramin put out. I do not pretend to be able to explain everything God is and does, but I know enough to satisfy my own heart and mind and I hope that of others!
May God reveal Himself to seekers like Theramin!
Watched both 'transition to atheism' and this vid, and they're both excellent.
Subbed!
Thanks BaileysBeads - been a rush getting both vids up this weekend, but I'm looking forward to viewing your video response!
I cannot give this video enough stars! Great job!
It's a pleasure. The older videos might be older to me, but feel new to the viewer. Ideally, I'd like to be able to respond much more often than I can - I enjoy the interactivity.
Hey Larry! ;8) Glad you enjoyed it - I'd been wanting to do a 'transition' video for some time, just to lay it all out transparently and put to rest all the silly, ignorance-born theories about atheism stemming from immorality/rebellion, etc..
It's interesting just how similar this is to my own transition to atheism, and experience. I too started rejecting faith only after I realized I was failing to defend it. ...Though it was my older brother that I was arguing with, not a teacher. Great video by the way.
An excellent companion to the personal journey to atheism - top class!
You are one of the most eloquent people on RUclips.
Why thank you Aaberg ;8) I'm already seeing some distortions in some theist comments. Qualia is working on a collection of new videos, which he plans to uploads over the next couple of months.
@SyKmGl You said you wished I thought critically about my assumptions. I do. You've now said assumptions are being made that are false. If you don't specify what you're referring to, I don't know what you're talking about. So, please state these assumptions, using quotes - not inferences, not what other atheists have said or might say, but what I've said. I'm not wasting my precious time denying things I've never said, and other people can defend their own position.
Beautiful work, Link! No surprise there. I've come to expect clear and concise thinking from you.
@jazztutorial 'Einstein also claimed that everything he came up with was from sleep, and excessive day dreaming. Yet if someone said they dreamt that God existed, an atheist might selectively deny this.'
-You can't use this as a criteria - I have ideas in my dreams that work out when I wake up. But I also have dreams that are utterly unrelated to reality. The dream isn't the qualifying factor in DNA - its observable existence is.
At 5:30 - This is how religious traditions have been formed. And it is not only following other people and repeating what they said. It is more like playing Chinese whispers. In the chain, we have some defective links, like misunderstanding someone's else metaphors and, here and there, some deliberate lies. And we have ended up with fantastic stories about Muhammad recorded in Hadiths 150 years after Muhammad, we have ended up with some gossips and fabrications about Jesus recorded in the Gospels, we have ended up with untrue stories about Moses and Rabbi Akiva, and misinterpretations of the Torah recorded in the Talmud. Some ideas in the above "sources" may be inspiring, but you need to be very critical while reading them.
Thanks Dualranger! Glad you enjoyed it ;8)