2017 86 vs 2013 BRZ - What you need to know | Everyday Driver
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- We're big fans of the 86 platform (FR-S, 86, BRZ). With the release of the mid-cycle refresh for 2017, we set out to see and feel the changes side by side. A 2013 Subaru BRZ represents the car as it was first released, and a brand new 2017 Toyota 86 represents the refresh. We were surprised by what we discovered.
For more from us, Subscribe!
Videos on Thursday.
Podcast "The Car Debate" every Tuesday and Friday wherever you get Podcasts.
Thanks for watching!
Isn’t the point of this car to not be powerful? Like the AE86? Great handling and drivers car? Does no one see this?
Ikr
Maybe but also if BRZ had more power it would compete more with wrx. I dunno. I would just get a miata or a wrx. This is like a practical miata subaru?
These cars are powerful enough, you just have to unleash the power, car s come out from factory with alot of power restrictions.
@@cmhidalgo that's exactly why I want one. Miata would be cool but aside from myself, I cant fit anything in it.
People just want more power, that’s it. NOBODY talks about this on the MX-5, and yet...?!
these motors rev out to 7500... if you at 3krpms and you "dont have enough power" DROP A GEAR!!!!
Drop the car
As a BRZ owner I can testify this IS the case. Just drop a gear!
7400*
ToastyClam mines 7650 :)
Hmm.. a 370z also revs to 7500rpm (8000 with a reflash) and yet you don't need to drop a gear when you wanna overtake someone on the highway. Why? Because it has this thing called "torque"
Who cares about features in a sports car? As long as you have a cup holder and an aux port. You have nothing to whine about.
javon player umm, I care about the features in a sports car, it adds to the models.
Features would help make up for the complete lack of power lol
@@sporkinstien6571 have you driven one?
@@giampieroilbello5373 obviously not
I don’t have a cup holder lol
The 86 is supposed to be a fun car not fast. I think it's awesome.
Actually is very fast in mountain windy roads.
@gilbert martinez i'm so sick of guys like you that thinks every sports car should have a minimim of 500 bhp and who thinks others aren't entitled to like different things.
@@dariusfabian6404
Mee?? I'm not like that.
I own a 86 and its a pure sport car.
Purest than many overpower cars
I never says somthing like this
@@GastonMaqueda he meant the other guy
@@GastonMaqueda my bad it was meant for that tool Gilbert Martinez
They drive the poor 86 like it's a Corvette! Haha 3000rpm and petal to the metal? No!
Drop 2 gears and on 7000 rpm just before the turn you will see the unicorns :-P
You'll see the taillights of cars passing you. Unless you mean better, more fun cars when you say unicorns.
I'd spend my whole time driving that just trying to get to the fkn speed limit... not exceeding it... I gap them all the time in my 100% stock Fiesta ST... They hate it lol
I totally agree, sure its not a fast car but cmon i was thinking the same thing, they overexxagerated by not downshifting.
jrzez it's because the 86 is a driver's car not for Americans who like straight line speed 😂
@@Mr.timecapsules You have to stop generalizing americans as if other people around the world haven't had the same complaint.
The lack of hp was kinda a feature for me. I wanted something that was fun to drive, meaning shift gears and make turns. To get the most outta this car you need to shift
I also like how I don’t accidentally go way too fast, it is not fast but I have no problem getting to whatever desired speed quickly. I don’t want to rack up tickets
Also this car wouldn’t come in this price point with much more hp, I am very happy to have something this fun to drive at this price
I feel this, sometimes I like to wring out a car without going too fast, I drove a mazdaspeed3 and I actually wished it had less power because I can’t stay on the turbo for very long before I’ve gone from 60 to 80. In the city I can barely step enough to get the turbo in the ideal spot for sound. I’d like more time to hear the turbo spooling without going that fast.
Exactly this. This is a fun car not a overdone car.
its a freaking NA engine... 4500rpm and up is where you want to be... it is not a drag car... it needs tight roads with plenty of turns not more power... made up issues guys, made up issues.
this is simply not understanding the car and where it comes from...
Mike G 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 THANK YOU!
"The new 86 looks *TOO* good"
"Why doesn't it have a turbo? No AWD? Ugh...it doesn't sound gurgly enough...it handles too well."
Mike G YESSSS!! FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT!
Yes! Finally! Someone who gets that the BRZ/FRS/86 is not for drag!
flooring it at 3k rpm in 5/6th gear? do you not know how to drive a stick?
Eddie Suen he was doing it as an example. Showing that the 86 isn't a torque monster especially down low. Also showing the terrible torque dip. Im sure he knows lugging the engine is bad etc.. etc... and down shifting is more efficient etc.. etc..
UEL header and an ECU tune basically eliminates the torque dip. UEL and tune was the first pair of mods I did to my 2017 BRZ.
if you've driven this car you would realize this would happen in any gear. If you floor it in 2nd or 3rd between 3500 and 4500 it just gets louder but you don't accelerate any faster. It's so weird that people who have never looked at the torque curve have asked me about it without any prompting after they drive it.
The reason they used 5th was because they were trying to show the torque dip for video. If they did it in 3rd or 4th it would get through it pretty quick and it wouldn't come across correctly.
The Jacoyay it's not supposed to be the same as the ae86 is just gets half of its name from there because it's sort of a spiritual successor in that it's relatively lightweight, naturally aspirated and has an FR layout. The other half of the name comes from the 2000GT, which it's also slightly based on
my non turbo bmw perfectly accelerates from 2k rpm, why toybaru cant? its a petrol with valvetronic, disa and two vanos systems that let me have max torque from 2,2k rpm. brz is performance oriented vehicle, why they showed some nissan micra engine in it?
I really like the brz. But the problem is you go to a Subaru dealership and see you can get a WRX for the same money. They need to get the price down to help sales.
Youn Gu I totally agree with you there. My sister has a brz, and I like it. I almost picked one up when they first came out, but ended up with an s2000.
Same can be said for the wrx. becomes the same problem. The WRX is just a more appealing car to most people. 4 door, more power, awd... etc
agreed. After test driving a BRZ and FRS back in the day I've concluded this car feels more like ~$20k than $27k
Youn Gu my problem with it was that as a whole, the car basically felt like any other cheap japanese economy commuter except the interior has tackier plastic than usual and happened to be rwd. didn't feel special at all to justify the price
Youn Gu I see your point. It was a 3rd car for me so it didn't need to be practical. If you are going to daily drive it the brz is a better choice. But for a weekend/track car the s2000 is the better choice.
Chassis and balance is very hard to improve, so them perfecting that from the get go is more important. Simply adding good tires and doing an engine back exhaust + tune takes away almost all negativity from this car. Yeah it's still low on power, but it's always meant to be a momentum car. Keep speed up, drop a gear, and turn in. That's how this was meant to be driven and as you said, it's a blast to drive.
Look at me! I can floor the throttle in 4th gear from 35 mph! For no reason!
Measuring acceleration of the car when driven in the wrong gear as just as much of a "only makes difference on paper" comparison as Toyaburu's decision to add 5 horsepower. *Of course* if you're the kind of driver who's going to drive that way this is the wrong car for you today just as much as it was in 2012.
We agree with you that long pulls in one gear are not where this car excels, or the best way to drive it. However, it is an effective way to discuss the full extent of the torque dip, and the fact that it's grown - so that's the reason we did it here. If you've seen any of our other many pieces on our long term 86/FR-S, then you know how much Todd liked his car and drove it to maximize the strengths of the platform. Thanks for watching!
@@EverydayDriver lol..."Damn this torque dip is annoying. Let's floorboard the car in 6th gear at 3000 rpm to exacerbate it."
@@EverydayDriver Just picked up a used '13 FRS in H8R orange "hot lava" and agree with Todd's assessment. What a fantastic car for 2 lane backroads in Wisconsin. Does not pull like my '04 wrx with a worn out 5 speed shifter. Even used, the 6 speed is tight and driving position more sports car like. I have an old S14 240sx that has the same wheelbase, weight, etc. but can't compare to the driving experience. The previous owner had installed an ARK exhaust system that sounds amazing when you wring out the NA engine to redline.
Drive the car in Japan and most of Europe....no problem. Drive it in most of North America.....big problem. As an 86 owner in Texas I can say it’s slow as balls except in the winding roads outside of Austin.
too many straights?
Well people in America like racing in straight lines and V8's lol.
Here in TN those cars dominate roads like the Dragon and Devil's Triangle.
I live in the Pacific Northwest and love my BRZ. I'll take an 86/BRZ over a V8 muscle car any day.
We really don't have many curvy roads here in Texas they're mostly straight highways. I wish we had more curvy roads to be honest.
The 2013 looks better lol...
"Hmmmm I'm in 6th gear going 45 lemme floor it and it should go up to 80 almost instantly"
Used BRZ + Turbo = The Win
= Blown motor.
that's why you build the motor LOL
The Edlebrock supercharger would work nicely, too. 50 state legal.
BRZ+Built Motor+ITB= S2000 killer
@ImBarryScottCSS Not if you shoot for a reasonable 300 HP setup.
I am happy with my Frs, I changed tires and put some lightweight wheels! Feels very light and balanced. Sometimes the torque diff is there but, the happiness I have riding it it’s more.
I wish they were more specific about the changes and less opinionated, it's a comparison not a review.
Emoji for constipation 😂
made me spit out my coffee :D
haha this one had me rolling.
Looks good to me and the back looks sexy as heck.
😖😖😖😖
I was offended but it was still funny haha
I drove a 2016 and a 2017. I ended up buying the 2017 because the handing was better, and it had steering wheel controls for infotainment and information screen. The newer car also seemed better assembled. No rattles and squeaks. The power complaint is not entirely without merit, but you just learn to drive it right, and then it doesn't really matter. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat. Of course, I would keep my 2003 Miata hardtop if I could go back in time, and these guys aren't NB fans either, so clearly we like different things.
Actually, Todd owned one of these and I still own one, so we definitely love the platform. We just don't think the new one is different enough to pay the premium for differences that in many ways made the car worse (torque dip for example). It's still a great car and we highly recommend them as well as the NB Miata. We just don't fit in those.
I just bought a 2017 Toyota 86M without test driving it, I've had it for about a week AND I FREAKING LOVE IT! You guys and your FRS series literally sold this car to me not the salesman. DON'T WORRY I'M PUTTING MICHELIN PILOT SUPER SPORTS ON IT!
Congratulations! We're very glad to hear you got an 86 and so enjoy it, and pleased to have been part of the process. Thanks for watching and enjoying what we do.
You sound pretty happy with two guys who spent a whole video telling you that you made a mistake.
Toyota doesn't want to invest the money to give it more power because it hasn't been a big enough sales success. But, it hasn't sold in great number BECAUSE it needs more power.
But it's not like it would take much R&D for Toyota to increase the power in this car; they already purchase the resources in bulk. They could easily share a turbo that is used on a different model or go bonkers and put the Camry V6 in.
When has Toyota ever made stock high horsepower cars? Not counting Lexus. Also, V6 would NEVER happen, as this car's crown feature is it's Ferrari 458-beating super low center of gravity, which is possible only due to a flat Boxer engine mounted very far back and very low in the engine bay. Nevermind the extra weight a V6 would add to a car that is designed to be very lightweight.
To your first question, well, actually they have and still do for normal cars. My 2007 RAV4 has 269 hp, a 2018 Camry can come with 267hp. These, of course, aren't really impressive numbers today, but they are high for normal cars. Now, I agree, these cars should stick to the 4 cylinder engine; it just needs turbo power. Although, ask anyone who has V6 swapped a miata and they'll tell you how enjoyable it is.
gman1912 The current WRX uses a variant of this engine with turbo boost to make 268 hp. Put that engine in this car with good tires and you have a rocket on wheels. Release it as a more expensive "STI version" or something similar. The parts are already there without the need to do expensive engineering.
But... I'm not sure how much better it would sell with more power. How many people would take this over a Mustang or Camaro if it had 268 hp? Or even 300? You buy a pony car because you want a pony car. The Nissan Z no longer seems to be very relevant. So the 86 is only really competing with the Miata, which is also a momentum car. The gap to the next "level" becomes pretty steep -- Stingray and Cayman. The reality is that sports cars don't sell because y'all don't buy them.
Ah, the old catch-86. Oops, I mean catch-22.
For years and years I was dead inside. I had forgotten the sweet sensation of ripping on a back road. After buying my Brz. I have rediscovered the love for driving again. I feel the love for cars again. Every time I get behind the wheel I fall in love all over again and remember than not just a machine but a deeper connection. The simple thing to just drive on back country road is my happy place. Awesome video guys. Love your work!
shift to a lower gear for fucks sake! it ain't a friggin audi turbodiesel. "torquedip torquedip blablabla" it doesn't necessarily need more power, you just need to understand how to drive it. i'm not even a 86 owner, but i've driven one more than once and it's great and powerful enough for what it was made for. I, as a porsche owner and fanatic, couldn't think of a better new car to buy at around 30grand. though i'd also prefer the "pre-facelift" version.
Keep in mind that Todd owned and drove one of these daily, commuting, canyons, and track for two years. If you've seen any of our other films on the car you know how much he enjoyed it. The intention here was to stay in one gear to show the engine's characteristics and how they relate to each other. Of course downshifting is the way to go - but that wouldn't have allowed this demonstration. We hope that clarifies. Thanks for watching!
TheWolvesCurse I was thinking the same thing, it’s suppose to harken back the low budget underpowered Toyota’s of the 80’s. Third gear was the only gear for hills.... SHIFT.
Up the power, up everything seems to be the review, until it’s what competing with jags and m3’s?
Nobody is suggesting something that absurd. The car would be significantly better with the turbo version of its current engine, which already exists in the WRX with nearly 270 HP.
For around 30k? Get a 370z, a wrx, a 2015+ mustang.
Got a 2016 GT86 myself. Bought it as its my dream car but also for fun and yes my daily car. For me its perfect. Got big enough boot/ trunk I never have back passengers I just use the back seats for extra storage if needed. Car has more than enough power for me and super fun to drive. Mostly go down twisty roads on my way to work and the car is perfect for that.
Try driving it at sea level and it won't feel so slow. Any naturally aspirated car will struggle in high altitudes.
True
Thats what I loved about my supra turbo. However, my 2012 scion tc didn't do bad on hills at all.
Am I the only one who likes the new 86 design?
I do too
86 is cute looks car.
Don’t care what anyone says my 2019 86 is far from slow period.
Same!
Except the tailight
Buddyclub tailight looks nice but has a problem with the plastic,its melting and not durable in long term
Valenti is the only choice
I drove the car and though the power is only average, its the most fun I had driving a car in a long time. The way the steering tells information of the road, and the ride is just outstanding. Yes there is a lag with the engine around 3,500 rpm, so you just down shift to 2nd gear and there you go. A couple of things to mention that improves the car performance and enjoyment.
1. The 86 offers the 18" wheels which I would take over the standard 17" tires.
2. TRD (Toyota Racing Development) brakes, TRD air filter and intake are options to add to the car which will provide enough improvement to notice, though not a big difference.
3. There is also a TRD exhaust system which helps the engine sound more like a sport car without being too loud.
I will take the 86 in red please.
the car doesn't need more peak power (although that would be nice), it really needs a broader torque curve. Miata's (NC and ND, 86's most direct competition) kill it in this department, their powerband are at least twice as big
I agree. It has a hayabusa power curve almost. Not quite, but it also doesn't quite weigh 500 lbs.
So I own an 86 and can say it's a blast to drive, I also work at Subaru so I've driven BRZ's of essentially every model year, trim, special edition, you name it. There's enough improvements that you should go for a 2017 model year of whichever body style or interior you like better.
@mcharleau I got the cheaper of the 2...which was by far the BRZ in my Canadian area...wonder what you ended with?
The interior of your BRZ is like my '13 GT86 (German spec) and I like the climate controls a lot better than the new ones on your 86. Also I agree with your thoughts about the steering wheel: old one, no controls, better!
I think what the 86 needs is a smaller engine with a turbocharger slapped into it. Don't need a huge amount more horsepower but it needs a fair bit more torque. If not it's gonna get the shit kicked out of it by MX-5s still.
On a road race, adding a turbo removes the linearity of acceleration. It's make it harder to control the throttle to the exact level needed to get the fastest road time. You're thinking of a drag race. Even when guys strap a turbo and race non turbo time, the time margin is very small, which proves that a turbo is not what this car needs for a road course.
@@pcguru2000 To me it looks like this car needs nothing but a good driver. It's 100% a drivers car with everyday driving qualities. The spirit of the 86 was never to be fast, it was always about momentum and 200hp isn't too shabby for a car that weighs like 1200kg and has such an amazing chassis. The original miata barely made 100hp and yet it was beloved by everyone who owned one.
The "lag" at the 3500-4500RPM rev range is greatly exaggerated as well. Does it exist? Yes. Is it a problem if you want to go fast? No. Odds are, if you want to push the car to its limits, you will be at 5000RPM+ at any given time. The whole point of a low HP sports car is that you are the one doing that heel toe down shift into 2nd gear, floor it out of the corners and rev it to the limiter. I've driven AMGs, M3s, M5s and so many other performance cars, but the magic behind a low HP sports car is something else. Flooring it on the highway gets boring eventually, pushing your own limits doesn't. I've had more fun in my Peugeot 206 on B roads than in any other vehicle. Slow car fast is always more fun that fast car slow. Drag racing from traffic light to traffic light involves no skill and is only about bragging that you have a fast car.
@@hileutewie totally agree
Those big, wide, american roads you are driving on are not what those cars were designed for - you should find some new roads. Europe is full of them but i suppose that isn't practical.
Owning both and working on Zenki and the new Kouki models - The new one is much improved and has a lot of upgrades. I think back to when the 2002 WRX first came out and it was released with 227 and everyone was so excited - This car is not about the power - Yes it can use more power and thats what mods are for :)
This ^
I’m glad someone else said it, the front design of the 86 is definitely a downgrade
It's definitely an upgrade to me. Bought the 86 over the brz because of it. More people buy 86's over brz. For 2019, brz sold 2334 cars vs 86 sold 3,398.
I would rather spend $25,000 to $27,000 for a stock FRS/BRZ/86 and spend $5000 on a top of the line turbo kit than spend $30,000 to $32,000 on a half baked OEM turbo solution and I am sure that most enthusiasts would agree.
Brian Glenn I would rather spend $12k on a used zenki FRS/BRZ/86 and spend $12k on a 2jz transplant, rather than a $27k stock 86.
Added: Putting a turbo kit on a stock BRZ/86 high comp engine will last you about 50k miles...if you are lucky.
Yeah put a big heavy brick in the front of a well balanced car, that sounds like a great plan. Also the compression is static. if you boost this car you are changing the valve timing to adjust the dynamic compression ratio. I personally know someone with a supercharged BRZ that has over 75k on it and it's still running great and superchargers increase intake temp more than a proper turbo kit.
BlakeJoy Any motor including the famous BRZ with the Ferrari motor is better than that POS boxer motor, imo. If you increase hp, you will need to upgrade to a heavier and beefier rear end. Go whine about balancing to Ken Gushi's FRS competition car with a 2jz brick why don't you? It's been proven for he past 5 yrs.
Buy the time you finish tuning it and upgrading parts you are looking more like $9000 and even then it is only a matter of time before you brake something and you will still get smoked by a 32k Mustang GT. If you want a more powerful car.......just buy a more powerful car. For 32k you can buy a sweet used Boxster or a new BMW2. The 2 is better than the BRZ in every way till you max both cars out. Then and only then does the BRZ have a slight edge.
85corolla 2jz swap? You should never drive an 86 or even own one if you only drive for the straights, a true driver attacks corners, not straights
As someone who came from driving an old 20 year old beater with probably less than 100 horsepower all my life this car feels like a lambo to me 😂 it’s PLENTY fast enough and if you accidentally press the gas too hard it will snap your neck back a little
86 is my daily drive now.. 😌 Just waiting for the time to tune it.
I've owned both an FR-S and a BRZ. And to me, there's no reason why the price on these cars are so high.. It's really a 19k car, tops.. It's fun to drive, but for the price, you might as well get a 370z, wrx, hell, even a new mustang.
Ever since Scion brand died and renamed as the "86". The price of that car keep going up year after year. Not to mention the b.s. "special edition" models like 2017 860 edition or the 2019 TRD edition. Racing stripes and bremo brakes like that will make a huge difference. Heck 2018 model didn't even lasted 8 months, just roll out 2019 86 models.
I own one of these cars and I think it's the last video you should make of them. Too much coverage! Although it was interesting to know that the new one feels slower. We owners know how cool these cars are. If you want more power, it is an easy fix.
This car does not need more power it’s a modern corolla 86 the point is if you want to make it fast and as a drift car you can do that because it’s a very easy car to mod and if you don’t then you don’t need more power for a daily driver
Welp, just boost to 250whp and it should be fine.
I have this car. I LOVE THIS CAR!
I think you guys are too hung up on the power if the car. You mention it too often. It's handling is superb, better than superb. And it seems to take a back seat to your complaints about power.
I live in a small town, very very small town. Full of tiny one or two kane roads that twist and wind and make full 180 degree pin turns.
I've yet to see some good ol murican 400 horse power mustang not drop down to 45 miles per hour.
It's all about that handling. For the well informed people who buy this car for said handling, they use it for the tight turns at high speed.
Your review undersells the main purpose of the car. It feels like you don't get the point.
Like comparing a nintendo switch to a psp pro and clamoring abaout the loss of power and leaving the portability as an afterthough. Completely missing the point.
We hope you've watched our other quite extensive coverage of this car - Todd owned one for a few years, loved it, and still recommends it constantly on our podcast. He enjoyed the FRS he had for its handling and praised it over a series of videos. He also discussed the things he didn't like - as we do with every car. This video is more focused on the changes in the mid-cycle refresh and the lingering power output question was something Toyota claimed to address. We fully agree that power is not the point of this car and we hope you enjoy Todd's long term ownership videos of his orange FRS. Thanks for watching!
@@EverydayDriver
Thank you for answering. In all honesty I am not saying you or your costar dislike the car personally. My point is that your review is giving off the wrong impression of this car, although that is your personal opinion. However, for the people who are fans of this car you seem to be making a fuss out of something that others considered a non-issue at worst and a selling point at best. Meanwhile downplaying the main purpose of the car which is it's maneuverability and balance.
Doesn't look good on your car review. You seem to get lot of complaints on frs/brz/86 reviews because of repeated mentions and laments over horsepower on a car designed for drifting and tight turns.
+EverydayDriver while I understand the view of this piece, I was hoping for more. There is a Performance Pack BRZ. There is a tS coming. THAT would have been the conversation I wanted to hear. Still hearing about the increased torque dip was an interesting point, as I would have thought it would have lessened.
One more with the PP and the Chance's BRZ flashed... all of them with good tires? :)
dowroa normally mine is flashed. I have OFT stage 1. I thought the car felt broken when I flashed it back to stock lol
Too bad the ts didnt add power
love my 2012 GT86. its fun and does everything i need to have fun and enjoy it.
when will you guys start reviewing cars again? i feel like I haven't seen one in forever
In japan it was call the Toyota 86
In the USA it was call the subaru BRZ
So basically the same because Toyota and Subaru came together to built this machine
The Toyota 86 was the Scion FRS in North America before 2017. The BRZ always existed in North America as the BRZ.
We know more about chassis dynamics, and power to weight ratios,weight distribution, damper stiffness, spring rates, gear ratios, final drives, coefficient of friction, and aerodynamics, than the entire R&D departments of Toyota and Subaru combined. Ok.....
Owner of an 86 here. Yes, there is a torque dip. Do I mind? No. If you understand the concept of this vehicle, that is designed to whip around corners and use it as such, you absolutely have a TON of fun with it! In corners I can easily keep up with some (bad) M3 drivers ;)
The 2013 brz looks better, looks like a porsche. The 2017 on the outside I do not like the design.
They really uglied this car up SOOOOO badly, it's damn-near heartbreaking!!
I feel like the main reason power was kept down, was to continue to keep the price down. As well, the manufacturer basically figures if the end-user wants more power, they certainly can attain that via the aftermarket.
Edelbrock makes a badass supercharger for these cars, folks.
Terry Hesticles the brz looks the same as it does in this video. The frs was changed to the 86 that is in this video so if anything the frs got uglier
Anyone seen the new 86 generation 2 design loool
I like this better tho
David Ly it looks good but its still concept cause its 2 years out but i am all in for the 2.4 L engine
Toyota says........ Hey guys, Let's build a sports car that doesn't sports car!
That comment is epic and shows Toyota failure. According to RoadAndTrack "In the postwar era, a 'sports car' was any car that seated two, had a soft top, and could be used for competition. ... That same car with a permanent hardtop was considered a 'Grand Tourer' ... a Scion FR-S to a Mustang to an Aston Vanquish would serve the would-be Grand Tourer well and so we can call them all 'GT cars.' "
Odd that you're complaining about a lack of power and flat spots without mentioning YOU ARE AT FLATFOOTING IN A HIGHER THAN CORRECT GEAR AT 8200-9000 FEET ALTITUDE in the relevant shots. That will always be an issue in a NA vehicle. Downshift, problem solved.
Shini Gami yes, the elevation plays a hand in loss of power but it doesn't make a difference with where power comes on in the rev range.
uhhh... when i cruise at 78 mph, the RPM is in the edge of the torque dip on a 2017. Any downshift skips the dip. It also has a better final drive so that downshift does more and cruising is at a higher rpm
Youn Gu Passing in new york city means aggressively cutting someone off and dominating them like a bitch. You need burst acceleration. We dont pass on highways here. There is no mandatory lane and we have no passing lanes. It all in and out cutting off and psychology. Always drop the gear sometimes two gears and punch it.
Dorian Gray LOL so true about driving in NYC. No rules or passing lanes. You wanna pass, you basically push other cars around with your mind.
Interesting how you guys are the only ones saying this. Maybe you’re the only ones being honest. The torque dip worsening really surprised me considering the improved final drive ratio. Guess the used market is where it’s at.
Clearly the hosts lack engineering knowledge. The 86 is not a hot rod
Wtf is wrong with these guys??? Like honestly? The brz,86, frs is sort of a “canvas” it’s built for tuning and modding it. It’s fun stock around curves but it’s not a Porsche... it’s 30k for fucks sake
they need to bring out a WRX/STI trim with the imprezza engine, it would actually make it a worthwhile car
In Japan, they're gonna get a BRZ STI BUT with only upgraded suspension and handling. No power still. lol
Why does everyone have a problem admitting that this car's drawback is that it's slow? I LOVE the 86/brz, it's my dream car that I'm saving up for right now. But I know it's slow... from the factory. It has an amazing chassis that is just BEGGING for more power, and that's great because the aftermarket is very healthy and it's a great platform to introduce tasteful mods too. There have been a lot of great slow driver's cars, like the miata, but slow is slow.
That new front is gorgeous.
These complaints are so overkill. Just buy the car, reflash the ECU and squeeze 10 hp and 10 Nm out of it, fix the torque dip, put a sport air filter and titanium exhaust, remove rear seats for lowering weight, put forged lightweight rims, coilovers, improve the interior with leather, alcantara and whatever you like, then enjoy one of the best(and underrated) cheapish sports cars ever made. It's true that the cars has flaws, but the core of it, engine, chasis, steering are Godlike for this price range(also good reliability), the rest can be improved in tuning shops. The other way around is not possible, having poor chasis, balance, terrible reliability and just adding a turbo on an already fragile engine won't fix the issues, it will make them worse. Bottom line is: this car stock is good, not great, but with 5000 dollars of improvements it can become one of the best because the core is there, you just need to fix those small issues.
OMG SOMEONE FINALLY THINKS THE SAME THING I currently own a 14 frs ... I was worried putting 225/40/18 with more grip the car won’t be fun .. I can nail it with so much confidence thro corners this car still puts a smile on my face even after 2yrs of ownership ... I test drove the new 86 and it felt slower and indeed that torque dip was worse and whenever I told anyone about they were like no way it’s not possible because of the shorter gears ... overall great car love it
People don't seem to understand that gears don't change the where the car makes power, they jsut help you get through the power band quicker or slower. Curious what tires you went with? I have Conti Extreme Contact DW on mine (the white one). They aren't PSS but they are a lot better than those Primacy o-rings.
First thing I did was put 235/45/17 pilot sports on my BRZ and I couldn't agree with you more. There's two specific corners on my daily commute: A slightly cambered 90 degree sharp-ish bend and an off-camber slightly uphill 90 degree sweeper. Where other cars need to slow to 35 km/h and 60 km/h I'm happily going through at 55 and 80. And not a tire squeal to be heard.
I also changed the stock rims for traklite rims. Can't say for certain but they feel about half the weight of the stock rims. Less rotational mass = better acceleration and braking and with 200 hp ... every little helps :D
exactly, I did the same along the pch 1 to malibu in my gen3 cam driving spiritedly with my buddy's frs and we were rolling along some long sweepers and short switchbacks no problem. fun drive if you haven't done it
Did you coilovers ?
Bishoy Kamel did you coilovers ypur car ?
The used market for these cars is saturates with salvage titles from crashes. Tell me again why you need more peoer when you cant even handle the 200 it has.
Someone mentioned that in San Diego , the Mazda rx gets head turns and the Toyota 86 is generic but it's the opposite here in the East Coast . It's the Mazda RX that's generic. The west coast and east demographic is different . My Toyota 86 turns heads and begs question like "what kind of car is this ?" I swear , when my Co workers first saw it 11 of them ( females and males, yes I counted ) was like "wow, this is nice " or "I'll drive the hell out of this car" that was their reaction. My ex - boss who owns three Porsches did a double take. And complimented the car. He caught me off-guard. No joke. Two days ago , I was at hooters as I was walking towards my car I saw an older couple looking at my car , the husband had his hand and face pressed against my window as he was trying to see if it has back seats. And the kicker is this, they have a red Mazda rx. I have no regrets. This is a bad ass car for the price point. It's not perfect. Dear Toyota : bigger rims and better tires should be standard for this car, better speakers, and add 50 HP would be wonderful. I will but it again.
Totally unrealistic review. No one drives this type of road in their daily drive.
We buy this car for the fun daily drive.
the 86 would be awesome with like 250, 260 hp
Yes
Which would add $5k
Toyota is making a new one it’s coming out with 260
Why are you not test driving the automatic?
What is the issue? All I see in cars reviews is the manual version when I can't do anything with that. I only drive automatic.....
If only this car would've had a 2.5 with, let's say, 40hp and 50nm more, people would've loved and bought it way more
Not me .......take 20 hp and get rid of the torque dip. Make it 200 pounds lighter and I am happy , I am glad they snatched the awful nav out for 17. If going to a 2.5 adds weight or and cost Subaru can keep it. I am the target demographic.
A snail atleast
Subaru probably has to think about selling the STI at a different price point, too. If they made the BRZ TOO good, then that might take away sales from the STI. It's a market segment decision and not a performance decision, I'm guessing.
What people does not understand with this car is that it’s a blank page for people who wants to modify it, you can easily modify the motor and have 300hp, i’ve even seen à 450hp GT86. It’s just a basic sport car that you can modify at your will till it’s your sport car.
They do not understand what a "tuner car" means. The low price point means having additional budget for mods. It's why their channel from 2007 only has 300k subs when other channels made after 2010 have 1m+ subs.
I'm on my second set of Pilot Super Sports in stock tire size for the BRZ. Corners like a beast but if you want to still kick it out, just push it harder.
Shambler you kept the rim stock ? I'm seriously thinking about upgrading the stock tires to those pilot super sport. Huge difference when hard long cornering ?
I don't like to kick it out.
Yes. Unfortunately I don't have any hard numbers, but what I can tell you us that with the Primacys I couldn't keep up in the corners with my friend that has a 2011 335i. With just changing out to PSSs in the same size, I take corners faster than him now. It provides that extra level of grip but still lets you have fun. If you really want it "on rails" though, you may want to up the tire width (I believe 225 is the widest you can go on the stock rim), or possibly go for wider wheels and tires overall.
Shambler thank you !
Todd's old FR-S had PSS tires on it. They were 225/45r17s. The white BRZ here (mine) has Continental Extreme Contact DW in the same size. The PSS are better but the Contis are a little less expensive.
the original 86 only came with 128 horsepower, and people still whooped ass with it... and you guys are complaining about 205 horsepower?
I prefer the 86
Everyone shits on the 86's revised front bumper. I think it looks great and its why i want the 86 over the brz or frs
As a car enthusiast that recently left the comfort of my mothers free living and was looking for a newer dependable car to get me to work that also had to be sporty and manual, I opted for a 2013 frs. After many previous miatas I am very happy with my decision. It has done everything i have asked of it from groceries to backroad blasts to my highway commute to work while getting 30mpg. As far as everyones gripe with power, As I have come to learn the car and the torque dip (for now). I think its still extremely useable and fun. Even for the 13 grand i paid for it. I am very pleased and look forward to modifying the car. Ive owned miatas, 350z, mazdaspeed 6. And this FRS is still my favorite.
We're thrilled you like your '13 FR-S. Great choice, and Todd loved his as well. Thanks for watching!
People complain about power with these cars but it’s still got 90 more horsepower than my POS Saturn
Had an FR-S myself for roughly nine months. Had it not been in an accident and totaled, I probably would have driven it until the wheels fell off. It’s slow and uncomfortable on long road trips, but it gives you so much confidence drifting around corners. Such a fun little car, and I hope Toyota and Subaru agree to a second generation... hopefully with a turbo?
Ben Schrader what car do you drive now that the frs is totaled?
If I am not correct, please correct me but did Subaru released BRZ Turbo.
I'll now correct you by saying no they didn't release a turbo brz. It's engine the fa20 has been released in a turbo form in the wrx, though.
brian b I seriously thought about just getting another FR-S, but settled on a Mustang Ecoboost.
Would it be accurate to say you drive on lots of straight roads and can have almost as much fun pushing a mustang to the handling limit, and obviously more straight line fun?
People don't understand this car, it's cheap, everything is balanced for you, no balance tuning required (the hard stuff), and it doesn't cost you much to insure b/c of the power output and the fact it *TECHNICALLY* has 4 seats. This car was made for enthusiasts to throw a FI kit on it and go. While keeping the cost to own low. Cheap car, reliable engine that handles boost well, near gutted interior to keep weight and price down, it's perfect. Just buy a bolt on SC from jackson racing. Done.
1:05 - "The front end of this car looks like the emoji for constipation" HAHAHAHA! I totally see it!
86 isn't perfect, but it really made me want to get in a proper sports car again. I agree, used over a new one. Opted for the s2k instead, cant beat the convertible or the sound.
Throw a flat 6 in there
Or flat 4, like the original 86
@@GlassStatus that's what's in it.
@@chosenideahandlethat's a 4 cyl boxer engine
GlassStatus a boxer is flat lol.
@@chosenideahandle no shit I'm talking inline
If you want power get a supra. This cars designed to be fun and feel sporty, ots not a muscle car
And this is why I got a WRX...lol.
Kelvin Jan good decision!
makes no real sense comparing the two. The WRX isn't a sports car, and I don't think anyone goes rallying with a BRZ.
So I sold my FRS and got a 996 911. +300 lbs +145 hp +122 ft/lbs torque. With the IMS/RMS resolved for what I sold my FRS for I loved the car but there are better options.
True fan boys would take out the turbo and sell it if these were fitted with turbos..
you go on about the tq dip so much, from 5:30, but its a manual, if u aren't accelerating till higher revs up hill, then downshift.
Todd owned a FRS for a while and talked about the torque dip extensively, while still loving the car. It exists in the middle and most commonly used portion of the tach. We demonstrated in a middle gear, so yes, we could have shifted around it... but you have to encounter it in 1st every time you leave a stop. Owners will either have to live with it or tune it out. It was enough of an issue for Subaru and Toyota to change engines for the second generation. Thanks for watching.
I really don't feel like the lack of power is the main issue. It's just a rubbish engine. I think if it was a screaming Honda engine with 'only' 200 horsepower people would be super forgiving because it's fun and can make you excited even though it's not that fast. This engine though, this engine is not exciting. It sounds shit, the torque curve is an actual joke (have you seen a modern BMW torque curve? Come on guys...) and the power is low, it's a bad engine and that breaks the car for me I'm sorry. I know the chassis is good, but for me cars come to life only when they have both the chassis and the engine, just one is not enough.
uh. it has a massively lower center of gravity than german cars. no one can drive which is why they desire speed on a straight away to make up for it.
Dorian Gray I disagree on the "massive" lower center of gravity. You can install an inline 4cyl engine by reconfiguring the subframe and motor mount to achieve similar goals.
You make valid points. Unfortunately there is no other RWD option for non minion sized people in this price range. The twins make ok power they just have that horrible torque dip where most people drive and they sound like crap. Soo.........You have to change the exhaust or intake to get acceptable sound. Doing an open flash tune will make the car more responsive with even better top end. If you are willing to void your warranty and unequal length header will give you fantastic sound wile eliminating the torque dip and adding even more top end.
The Hyundai grope makes nothing....nothing that even approaches the handling and precision of the BRZ/86 at any price point. Even BMW only has the 2 and it outperforms the BRZ out to 97% of its capacity but The BRZ is a BETER car when maxed out at 100% of its capacity and beyond. AS a former owner of the wonderful N/A 3.0 six 128i and x328i no drivetrain BMW now makes interest me.BMW has become the ultimate marketing machine..
Thats why even the little fiesta st shits all over this car. Its got enough of all the good bits to make a super fun car and it never gets old it just makes you laugh every time you drive it. Even a FWD is fine as i did all my drifting years ago.
Yuri, Full on balls out the Fiesta St is both slower to 60 mph and has a lower top speed than the BRZ. Even on high performance summer rubber it cant quite keep up with the BRZ running economy tires around the track. The Fiesta is an excellent performance car car bargain and a blast to drive but it also lacks the long term reliability, safety and resale value of the Subaru. The St also looks like the box the BRZ came in. The St is FWD. A very well balanced fwd but still fwd.
Having said all that in the REAL world the ST is faster 90% of the time and the base st is about $5000 cheaper after discounts than the base BRZ. I would much rather have a stripped BRZ vs a loaded St.
Another video with lots of people talking about sports cars that don't own sports cars.(comments section to be clear obviously the guys of everyday do)
One reason for low sales . Low sales aren't good for enthusiasts or our cars.
The torque dip got even worse?
Only Toyota!
masterwhopper414 Supra... lfa... yeah nothing Subaru ever made beat those cars
i truly believe it is better. It is more flat, which makes you not feel the exiting of the dip. it has 5 more torque, within that range as well, and the lowest part of the dip is less pronounced. It is a really easy car to drive not in the dip. Regular traffic it has power from 2500-3500. About to pass? it revs safely to 7400. Dropping a gear at 3500 will put out pass the dip. Every car I have driven that has even 350+ hp i dropped the gear to pass, preparing it. IT just cant do long pulls in first to 7400 for dragging.
Power definitely comes on later in the new car.
Not true at sea level on 93 octane. The new car has a slight dip of about 600 rpm with more top end.
While power is effected at higher elevations, the curve remains the same whether you are at sea level or 9000ft like this was.
Lol what your paying for is the R&D and balance of building the car. The WRX has more power but doesn't have the balance the BRZ has. Now if you want versatility and hp numbers go WRX this car is ment for those car that responds to your driving experience. This car was built to be a drivers car like the Trueno 86 of the past. Comparing apples and oranges. As far as the front I think it looks aggressive like a shark. The old fronts look to similar to most cars like a Mazda speed to plain.
chanhuor my sentiment exactly. The front on the white car looks like old Mazda the front on the red car looks sent aggressive . And don't let me mention the back of the new car. .. sexy fat ass . Great looking back bumper. I love my Toyota 86.
It makes absolutely Zero sense they didn't add a minimum of 30hp/30tq to new refresh
With an NA engine?
Rainer Blessing, yes sir. Even if they had to produce a more aggressive cam, larger mm throttle body, a factory shorty style exhaust manifold, a much freer flow factory exhaust system, & program the ECM to have little to no rev limiter, etc..
Rainer, trust me bro, they could've easily added 30hp out of that N/A engine
Soon2Be Fulfilled easily done with a catless header and stage 2 tune
Donald Johnson, right on
Trust ME, you know very little about commercial engine design. Any one of the suggestions you make would add up to enormous amounts of testing and R&D to satisfy putting a warranty on it. This is why refreshes rarely get engine work (unless it's lifted from another product). Brb while I retool my lines and pump a fuckton of money into a car that barely turns a profit.
It makes absolutely perfect sense that they didn't make significant changes to the engine, because they are a business, they understand money/time/risk, unlike you.
I think the 2016-2020 models look better than the 2022 models just wish they had to 22s power but mods can fix that
Do FD swap (4.8) and you will forget the dip
My co-worker with a highly modified BRZ commutes home at a pretty good pace after work at 3am whilst I cruise in my Integra. One night I left early, he catches me 30mins into the commute, and we do a simple roll race from 50mph-90mph. We could not believe how bad his car lost vs. a STOCK H23A swapped Integra. It was terrible, like a dozen car lengths terrible...
lol you just stated you vs'd the care on the one thing it is meant to not do... race in a straight line.. lmfao its common sense, this care isn't for speed and you just think that what, it is somehow going to beat ur car cause it looks cooler or somehting lmfao? its about handling. the brz would destory your car on a track, track times are what matters unless your some hick who likes to drag race. such a stupid comment lmfao. or try to drift ur integra vs the 86 lmao. like each car is made for certain things, not just go fast in a straight line. cant mention how stupid your comment sounds my god.. EVERYONE KNOW ITS SLOW ON STRAIGHTS LMFAO. u must be so impressed with your integra lmfao.
Patrick De Freitas You think a momentum car from 1994 should be faster? Not sure what rock you grew up under, but Integras are slow...built to commute and handle well.
Sergio Aguirre You crack me up. Go rub your Honda pillow to sleep.
Probably didn't downshift.
Let me guess: by "heavily-modded", you mean Rocketbunny wide-body kit, heavy 19 inch wheels with 10 inch tires, an air intake and a catback.
i hate people who complain about power. toyota built it to be a corner carver if you want power with no balance get a mucle car or something else toyota was trying to catch the spirits of the old 86 (no power), sport 800 (really no power), and 2000 gt (not really any power) but what these cars did have where amazing chasis that would make them amazing in circuit racing cause they didnt need to loose as much speed as the faster cars through a turn. which in turn made these cars fast with absolutely no power. so please people if you dont like the 86 cause "its slow" dont get it, its not for you its for people who know how to drive cars and push them to the limits in corners. people who think power is number 1 key in a car dont deserve to drive this car. no matter how much you caomplain toyota will never ever change it cause their vision was their low power sports cars 86, sport 800, 2000 gt.
I only have two gripes with this car and they sadly outweigh all that rwd chassis goodness; shitty plastic interior and underwhelming straight line performance for a 26k car. If Toyota/Subaru decides to address those issues I'd be the first one in line at the dealer happily ready to get into debt
This car isn't meant to be driven fast in the straights, despite the guys constantly showing video of them trying to do that and then complaining it's too slow.
thats always the fanboi excuse lol (don't get butthurt, I still appreciate the well balanced rwd chassis) I spend a significantly larger amount of time in freeways and traffic so this is definitely not the sporty daily I'm looking for
That's not a "fanboi" excuse. You ever drive a mountain road full of actual curves and almost figure 8-like turns in this car?
If you know what you want and this isn't it then just move on, lol, don't make a complaint that it's a worthless 26k car because it's not as fast as you want in the straight line.
I agree. As someone looking to get a new or lightly used car soon, it's hard to justify picking this over a hot hatch that would be faster and have a significantly nicer interior.
I think we'd all be happy if somehow the price went to 20k. Then it would be unarguably a godsend to enthusiasts: the less wealthy who could then afford it in place of a corolla, and the ones who would have more money to improve it and finish washing away what they find wrong. Used prices would adjust as well.
Or for 30k: a sweet flat 6 barely changing weight etc. and making 200 ft lb and 260 horse with no torque dip. Not to make it a good car; it already is, but to make it more obviously worth the money.
Obviously these won't happen :(
My closest hope is that what's being sold now will continue to be made and the price won't rise despite inflation, making it cheaper that way.
You want more power on this car ? That’s what mods are for, just saying…
yep, new one looks worse, and 5hp? really? Geez, I continue to feel that the S2000 is a MUCH better (and "real" sports car, vs a kids car) compared to this, and it is was done almost 20 years ago.
The S2000 most certainly is superior than this car.
If the s2000 is a 9/10, the brz is a 5/10
Absolutely. It's painful that all these people think the 86 is a sports car. By the same logic, so is a Civic.
Steve C it’s painful to know people like you effect public policy.
Sure, because people like you want to tell your high school friends how cool your mom's Elantra sports car is.
I have a 16 FRS, I like it better than the refresh front bumper and better than the brz front bumper. I know opinions are subjective but to me, it’s the original FRS all the way.
so they lug the engine and say "wow dis weak af lol"
Wish you compared the 2013 BRZ with the 2017 BRZ performance package instead.
I understand the need to keep this car Naturally Aspirated... I do... but man that engine sucks. It's been what 15 years since honda put that 240HP inline 4 in the s2000 and subaru/yota give us this? Dont get me wrong at 18K im a customer all day... but at 26K HAHA... A hyundai Eltra sport would dust this for 3 grand less not to mention the automatic is a DCT.
TheCarChannel yeah but the S2000 was $35,000 new back then and reached up to $38,000 all spec'ed out. Adjust for inflation to today's money and the S2000 would be more than $40,000 if still sold as a new car today.
Find me ONE new 100hp/L NA engine from the past 5 years. Or even 10 years. You can't. No one seems to understand the fact that fuel/emission regulations are a completely different ballgame now, or as ProjectM97 points out, the S2000 would cost well over 40k as a new car today. Enjoy your Hyundai.
Absolutely no one will be cross shopping a rear wheel drive sports car to a front wheel drive compact sedan. If u want value priced sedan with some sporty bits to it then Elantra is a solid option. If u want a sport coupe with that handles great and a Lexus, MB or BMW, etc simply isn't in the budget (prices can easily get to $40k-$50k+), then this $25k to $30k car makes sense for that money.
daiheadjai Fords 5.2 voodoo
Good example - I should've specified the pricepoint. We haven't had the same types of engines in the same volumes as the 2zz or B18C etc. since the mid 2000s.
If you want more power buy a more powerful car :/
Or Tune it yourself :D