@@EverydayDriver Yeah, I noticed this was a shot that wasn’t much necessary but you guys went the extra mile to set it up. I’m loving these videos. I own a 22 BRZ and didn’t know the difference until now. I’m hoping ECU gets cracked soon, I want to tune closer to the GR and see what simple bolt ons will do.
I saw a japanese video in youtube, they tested both brz and gr86 in track. the brz beats the gr86 and got better lap time. they explain the differences as follow: the brz is more stable and has better control which makes it better for time attack where the gr86 has faster throttle response and more over steer which makes it better for drifting.
Went with the Subaru. Ease of ordering, price (no markup/add ons) and because early reports were that it was a little softer/quieter. Super happy with it.
Had a 2016 BRZ, now have a 2022 BRZ. This thing is sooo much better as a daily. The seats are way more supportive and ergonomically correct and the suspension is way more compliant. I went with the BRZ for the same reasons as you and I do not regret it at all. Ordered exactly what I wanted, waited a few months, paid MSRP with no BS games or markup, drove away happy. Subaru FTW!
I ended up buying a 23' BRZ even thought I prefer the look of the GR...mostly because I had a horrific experience at the Toyota dealer and a very pleasant experience at my local Subaru dealer.
Buy the duckbill if you want. I’ve seen it for $400-500 and you can install it yourself. Thing is I’ve only seen red, black & white. I went with black on my sapphire, think it looks cool and the car kinda needs it. The front…well I think you’ll warm up to it. I did, it’s not bad at all in person, tbh I like the shape of the vents and the bottom lip on the Subaru more, I’ll probably get a mesh grill when available, but the little shark teeth is a nice touch. Both are good looking cars. And suspension can be changed, ECU will take a bit of time it seems. Also the front plate on the Subaru is in worse place me thinks, mesh seems cleaner.
Always enjoy the refreshing perspective you two have on cars that literally every youtube channel gets to drive. The difference in ECU tuning is fascinating.
I didn’t know the ecu tuning difference existed honestly. I personally haven’t seen that anymore until now and I did google it and found an article from the drive where Subarus planning manager said they had different ecu tunes
The best part is getting out of the gym, full of adrenaline and driving it hard and getting those perfect clutch catches and drifts on street turns. It’s so much fun. I own a sapphire BRZ with a black ducktail.
Grats on the first car purchase! I'm at the front of the waitlist at my local Toyota dealership and they have me down to reserve the Special Edition that's supposed to be here in fall, but I'll admit - they can tempt me with that Neptune Blue... Of the available colors, you definitely chose the best one!
@@G_P_G It's a 860-unit 10th Anniversary trim. It's a GR86 Premium, but with forged wheels, the GR exhaust system, and an orange paint that is exclusive to it. Raiti's Rides did a walk-around of it when it was unveiled back in June if you want to see it - Toyota also has it on their site, but it's still in their "Upcoming Models" section since it comes out in the fall.
The reason the power graphs look different is because the scales are different, not because the engine tuning differences result in the torque and power curves shifting in the RPM band and crossing at different points. Look at the relative magnitudes for torque and power at 7000 RPM on the two graphics. We know both cars make the same peak power at 7000 RPM. Since Power is Torque x Rotation speed, that means both cars are also making the same torque at 7000 RPM, but the Toyota's graph would lead you to believe it's making significantly more torque than the Subaru because the scales are different. If talking about power in horsepower and torque in lb-ft, the curves always cross at 5,252 RPM if you use the same Y axis scale for power and torque. If using power in kW and torque in N-m, the curves will always cross at 9,549 RPM if the Y axis scales are the same for torque and power. If the curves cross at some other RPM, it's because torque and power aren't being plotted on the same scale. The Toyota's torque scale starts at 100 N-m but their power scale starts at 0. Subaru's graphic doesn't have numbers on the Y axis, but based on the cross-over point at around 4,800 RPM and the and the relative magnitudes of the torque and power curves, my guess is that their torque and power scales both start at 0 and their power scale is 2x the torque scale. If one car feels peppier than the other, my guess is that it's due to a difference in throttle pedal calibration. Toyota may give more throttle opening earlier in the pedal. Or it's placebo effect.
Completely agree. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the engine tuning is virtually identical. The throttle maps are clearly different. I’ve had several cars with configurable throttle maps and the “perceived” effect can seem quite dramatic. It’s mostly an illusion though.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used. That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
Toyota has acknolodge that they tweaked the throttle body response to be less linear. The GR86 seems more spirited than the BRZ due to more throttle from less accelerator pedal travel. Some people seem to like this and others complain on the track that it is harder to achieve the right partial throttle with the GR86. I have seen no evidence from Subaru and Toyota that the have seperate engine tunes. Noting the time and cost required to meet regulatory requirements, I doubt that the extra money would be spent on this. It is more probable that both Subaru and Toyota colaborated to tune this FA24D, especially noting the mix of Subaru and Toyota technologies on this engine.
@@itsthemetho I believe it. A quick fix for BRZ owners would be to buy a Pedal Controller that can make the throttle less or more sensitive. Toyota GR86 and Subaru BRZ are both virtually identical besides an absolute minuscule level that no one would notice.
I really didn't know which to choose (aesthetically, I like bits of both). I didn't realize there was such a difference that I probably would have just bought whatever was available. I'm so glad you guys made this video!
They are clearly justifying their purchase in this video. Don't fall for it. Purchase the one YOU like the most, not the one these guys are biased towards because they purchased one.
The green is sweet. I know Todd likes Skittle colors, but the dark green gets my vote for appearance. As an autocrosser I'd be curious to see a run down from that perspective between the 86 and BRZ. I suspect the difference would be minimal but it would be interesting. When placing an order in October 2021 there was no way to know how the two would separate their version. It came down to the Toyota dealer no having any information and Subaru being able to give me an order and ETA. With today's supply chain I suspect there is very little cross shopping via test drives. We all take our guess, order, and hope.
HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5252 Since HP is a calculated figure derived from TQ, they will always cross at 5252rpm. If Subaru‘a graph shows otherwise, it is either not a legitimate representation of the curves or it represents alternative units (eg Nm and KW) that cross at a different rpm because the formula is different.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
As a 1st gen owner, I really appreciated your back to back comparison of the 1st generations on track, back in 2012 or 2013. The differences between the setups of the cars, though subtle, are there, and I'm so happy you've done it again for the second generation. I wasn't sure which one I would like more in the second generation (can't drive them without deposits locally), but your comments make it pretty clear: the 86 has more energy, which is what I want in a driver's car. ....now the real question: the brand new GR86 or a used 987 Cayman? I have a feeling you'll be addressing this in a future video!
@@patrickbateman7122 As a former 987 Boxster owner, former 2013 BRZ owner, and current 996 owner, I will say the new car is pretty freaking great. But yeah, difficult choice for sure. Early 86/BRZ vs 987 I chose 987 all day. The new GR86 though? That's a more interesting comparison.
@@phattyhales tbf i haven't driven a GR86, they sold out in 30 mins here in uk but someone can get me a test drive although i can't buy one 🤦♂️ will be interesting to see if its the car i always wanted it to be but i have doubts. I just don't think flat 4s make good sports car engines..
Going from my 2020 performance pack BRZ to a 2023 base GR86 very soon... I am so excited! Car gets to the port tomorrow. So glad since I've started my engineering career I have listened to all of your advice and enjoyed this platform, and completely owned up to having the disease.
@Trizair Buy it. It is a better car in every measurable way... except fuel economy, but if you don't drive with a lead foot, you can get very decent fuel economy. I went from the top trimmed last MY 1st gen to a base 2nd gen and it feels every bit as refined inside, as well. And, finally, unplug the sound. Sounds fine under 4k, but wow, it's bad above that.
First of all, I loved this comparison - very thorough and nuanced. There's a funny moment at 12:40 when Todd says "on the right canyon road, you may never need to brake" and almost immediately at 12:47 there's a shot of car's brake lights flashing :). I didn't know if you planned that intentionally.
IKR, their videos are among the best GR/BRZ videos. I think the one that competes is the hagerty GR one, but this one kinda packs more information and the hagerty has more fun driving (180 drive off, and lots of drifts) and funny moments.
I love them all. Interesting to see they’ve actually put some thought into the feel and didn’t just slap the parts together. I will say though…. I like the front of the first gen just a bit more. It looks sharper to me. I think it’s the more horizontal approach. Looks are subjective of course.
A good friend of mine ordered an identical BRZ in December and took delivery of it in June. Before it even left the dealership, he installed coilovers, a brembo big brake kit front and rear, unequal length header, full exhaust, short throw shifter and a few JDM bits (he's a Subaru master tech). As a former owner of a '13 BRZ Limited with a few mods, he let me drive it on some local twisty roads while he road in the passenger seat. You guys...oh my God, I drove that car as hard as I felt comfortable on a public road...I scared him a little bit. The whole time, the car remained DEAD stable and planted, very neutral in corners and the tires wouldn't even squeal...it just refused to let go. And you're absolutely right about the overall feel of these cars, that BRZ felt so much more solid and "finished" than my '13 BRZ did. second-generation
Thanks for your detailed explanation of the differences. The GR86 is not necessarily the better car. It is better for the two of you based on your preferences. While I agree that the GR is the better car for the two of you, your detailed explanation of the differences helped me decide that the BRZ is the better car for me. I have put down a deposit on a BRZ, based in part, on your reviews.
Thank you so much for your videos and your channel. Whenever i consider cancelling my pre-orders here in Australia, i watch your videos and im reminded why i love driving and my enjoyment of sports cars. I look forward to my GR86 arriving in March 2023. Thank you
Great report. Ya made me think, maybe I made a mistake ordering a BRZ, BUT I am 66 with replacement knees and a back held together with titanium. I ordered a stick, so the added sophistication of the Subaru will be welcome. I get amused by BRZ owners who look down in the Subaru.
As of your posting, I'm very happy with 10 y.o. 1st gen. FRS. I truly appreciate the way you both refer back to the gen 1 cars. Mine has seen the road course a few times and looking forward to a few more times. Back in the day, with my '68 Coronet 440 R/T, I did live 1/4 quarter mile at a time. The problem was that started riding motorcycles, to which Muscle can hardly compete. Had this affordable design been around at that point in time, I might be a retire Race Car Driver. It would be nice to drive the canyon roads that you show, but I'd be happy to run US 129 in TN with you and talk about fun.
This boxer engine are so good on long distance driving. I don’t feel fatigued at all. I’ve driven 2000 miles for 19 hrs straight I wasn’t even exhausted when I got to my destination.
@@AGZTGAMING I ended up trading it in, the car is amazing and so much fun to drive, it just doesn’t offer much room. I bought a 2022 Mazda3 Turbo. Having the extra room has been great plus the overall ride quality of the 3 is way better, but it’s a different beast.
you guys are my favourite car reviewers, good shots, always in depth with the little details and really good at vocalizing and getting your point across that's easy to understand. Keep up the good work! That overhead shot with the 2 cars driving by was satisfying how coordinated you guys were
Just traded my 2018 brz for a neptune blue gr86. Took two years to get it in this colour. Hoping to make it a forever car, your video here was what sold me the most on it and i dont regret it. @@EverydayDriver
Fantastic video, gentlemen!! I desperately want one of the new GR86es in Hakone Green with the bronze wheels and tan interior! Please, PLEASE Toyota, in Hakone green!
I rented a GR86 on Turo. It’s much faster much a stock FRS. Has 45 whp more than previous gen had (170whp vs. 215whp). My modded FRS has full exhaust, tune, and e85 and the GR86 stock is still faster. Infact I just saw a video of a 2022 BRZ beating the new 2022 WRX in a drag race, and the WRX has the same engine with a turbo (and more weight). Second-gen cars are officially not slow anymore.
@@moldyrefrigerator same here with the frs. I was stage 2 but it was an automatic and I always felt it’d be more fun in manual. I want a Neptune premium manual next time around hold the extra rtv please.
So it sounds like you should buy the BRZ for the better suspension, then take it to your local Toyota dealer and have them disable the fake engine sound generator and reflash the ECU with the GR86 tune. This will give you the best dynamics of both cars. Then, depending on how you feel about the looks, you either live with the Subaru's front bumper and lack of rear spoiler, buy an aftermarket bumper and spoiler, or try to fit the Toyota front bumper and rear duck bill spoiler and paint them to match. Problem solved!
Personal preference, but I'm not a fan of either the small or extended duckbill spoiler on either vehicle. That element of the design has not grown on me at all. Hoping there will be some other spoiler options down the road. I still think overall the first gen BRZ was a better looking vehicle, and the second gen they started throwing on more garish items to jazz it up such as the odd side rocker fin things. Those have at least grown on me a bit. The loss of the round tail lights though, I am shedding a tear, lol.
My choice is the BRZ 2023 Limited as my new daily driver. I prefer the suspension from what I've heard, the idea that the same motor makes more power for Toyota is obviously a tune or something that can be overcome. Can't wait for my new car :D!!!! Also I can actually get a BRZ good luck with a GR.
1st Gen Subaru BRZ owner here. Okay it's more like Gen 1.5 because it's a 2019 after they updated the engine in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. What is sounds like is that the 1st Gen Toyobaru Twins (R.I.P FRS) are Windows Vista and the 2nd Gen Subayota twins are Windows 7.
The problem is that these two doorknobs didn’t notice that the subaru doesn’t have the y axis scale, so they misinterpret it as showing a different crossover point. They don’t really understand torque, hp, and what the graphs show. So, they think the graphs show a difference- instead of most likely being scaled differently, and then they claim that backs up their subjective impression of a difference. It doesn’t back them up, and even if their impression is correct, it could easily be differences in throttle tuning - in fact that’s much more likely.
Look closer at 11:38. One graph has zero torque at the bottom (not marked), the other has clearly marked 100 Nm at the bottom. Different scales. The crossover of HP and torque curves is defined by what scale and offsets you use when plotting.
@@Rob165x The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
I don’t understand the comments about the torque and horsepower graphs crossing at different points. 5,252 is always the point in the rev range on a dyno where horsepower and torque will cross paths. Google it! So whatever you guys are saying makes no sense!
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used. That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
@@datacipher Was thinking same. I kept wondering what was going on. My son has a 24 GR and I have a 23 BRZ. The power is identical. The only difference I felt was the throttle response was peakier down low on the GR where as in my BRZ it feels more linear. The handling feel is really splitting hairs.
Excellent video! Very interesting to know the differences are more pronounced than in the first gen! And as others have noted, the editing and camera work is superb!
My son who has a 23 BRZ recently visited me, and he’s rarely going to concede anything, but the first time he got on it he immediately said that my GR 86 feels faster. The torque/ HP graph diff surprised me. There May actually be something to it. My opinion prior to seeing that, was that even these guys “fell” for the trickery of how Toyota putting most of the throttle in the first third of the pedal (which honestly I’m not so sure I like) . As it feels like it goes so willingly with little throttle. But the trickery there, is that the rest of the pedal, there isn’t much there. But if that curve showing the torque flattening out quicker in the BRZ , while the GR86 rises further may be creating a true feeling vs just trickery, or a combination of both.. What do you guys think??
@@boldcitycc The BRZ has a much more linear throttle curve, which is preferable to anyone who actually likes canyon running or taking the car on track. Toyota put all the throttle response in the first 43% of pedal travel and it just completely dies after that. Terrible tuning to make the car seem faster to people who are easily fooled. It has no place an enthusiast car and is more suited to a base Corolla.
Great vid...it would be cool if you guys would be willing to drop the oil pan on your GR86 and check for silicone as part of your ownership experience.
I’m confused. “Nice to see such a broad difference”, and “if we’d driven the BRZ first we wouldn’t have bought it”. And in the next breath but “the level of nuance we are talking about…”. I get the suspension differences, but I wonder if the actual engine difference between the two is primarily throttle mapping? That can certainly make a car feel more urgent.
As mentioned specifically in the film, Paul thought there was a bigger difference in the cars than Todd did, so you’re comparing two different peoples assessment. And the power difference noted was apparent at partial or full throttle, the BRZ feeling a bit more labored than the 86, and more similar to the first Gen. Thanks for watching.
@@EverydayDriver I’ve haven’t driven the GR86 yet (it is still to be released here) but I have driven a 2014, 2017, and 2022 BRZ and the new FA24 doesn’t remind me of the old FA20 very much at all. It feels a lot more refined and less gravelly and doesn’t sound like it hates being revved (unlike the FA20). The BRZ’s FA24 still has the slightest dip and you can just feel it in line with actual dashboard graph but the moment it crosses the Power curve (which in 2nd feels like half a second or less later) it takes off all the way to cutout. There is zero sensation of “falling in a hole” like you get with the FA20. With respect to the new BRZ’s suspension compared with the old one, there’s a fair bit more supplenesses to it which makes it less of a handful on bumpy backroads and a bit more liveable around town. It feels a bit like the old BRZ with a dash of ND MX5/Miata and way more structural stiffness than both of them. I think it’s an improvement. The new BRZ still works great on track out of the box too.
Have you heard of the Silicone issue affecting the 2022 BRZ, 86, and WRX ? I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter. My car is actually an affected car and have seen silicone on the oil dipstick and there are plenty of other people online now talking about this on forums and uploading videos of them looking into their oil pick up tube.
This was filmed before the recent online discussion of the RTV issue. We’re sorry to hear you are affected. We have discussed it on our podcast and will continue to as it develops but so far the online coverage makes it seem guaranteed, while the number of cases is small. Of course we will be following along, but also driving our car. Thanks for watching.
That is terrible, silicon on the oil😲. I had an old '80s car's engine destroyed because on a rebuild the mechanic was careless with the silicon application on the engine heads.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
Its the first time that any reviewer points out that the tunning of the engine on the BRZ and GR86 are different, and that the Toyota 86 gr performs better than the Subaru BRZ in this aspect. Most of the reviewers only point out that the only difference were in the suspension components, and that one of them was arriving to the tests with DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid to better withstand the track abuse.
I went BRZ route because of markups on GR86. I am planning to put on every STI accessories that come out that improves handling starting with flexible v bar. Not going to do any engine related mods for warranty period but I assume the response would be fixed with a tune.
May I ask which add ons have you done? I’m looking to order one very soon. I was just thinking the same thing. I Tune any car I drive except my tesla so Subaru seems to work better for me.
@@TUGRA14 I went for short throw shifter, sti knob, footwell illumination kit, auto dimming mirror, cargo tray, all weather mat in my order. After that I have installed spare tire on the car.
When they first came out I was 100% team GR86 for looks. The BRZ has grown on me sooo much. It looks more sleek and mature, the 86 is starting to look tacky imo. Can’t go wrong with either.
Same here. That ginormous half fake grill is getting old very quick to my taste. At first I liked the GR86's looks better but now the BRZ's friendly smile is winning me over.
Agreed - just in the few months I've been seriously shopping both cars, the 86 front end has already started aging badly to my eyes. I always thought the "dimples" on the BRZ looked better than the inlets on the 86, and I see the smile more as an evil grin anyway. Probably due to previously owning an ecstatically happy 2010 MS3.
I own the BRZ and hear all this hype about the GR grill, but in person, I like the BRZ vent shape more and I like the bottom lip on the BRZ more. And the shark fins on the grill make it a little more aggressive than otherwise. If anything I’ll consider a mesh option if it releases, but I think the bigger grill on the GR changes the hood line a little too much, it makes it feel more 90’s JDM, yes, but we’re not in the 90’s lol. I think changing the bumper to the GR one is too much a stretch. Suspension & eventually ECU tuning will make these mechanically identical. And I already got the duckbill. Btw…I don’t think the fog lights fit on the GR86 😬 I think those are cool.
I'm happy with the BRZ grill, it has more character, the GR86 looks more common and the vents look like a design from all the other econo Toyotas. I person the BRZ front looks wider and lower, a bit weird maybe but I'll take weird over normal!
In Australia the highest spec GR86 in manual is approximately 11% more expensive than the equivalent spec manual BRZ Here Toyota is pricing its manual and automatic the same. Pricing for the automatics here, GR86 vs BRZ is negligible. We also aren't being offered the extended ducktail as standard on the top spec GR86 but do get a no cost interior option of red stitching, carpets and door trims. Would be interesting to know if the 11% Toyota tax would change the reviewers opinions.
You guys do know that torque always crosses HP at 5252rpm due to the formula used to calculate HP being-Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5,252. Likely the scaling of the graphs is different or you are dealing with some display tomfoolery.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
One of the best comparisons of the twins out there! I‘m on the waiting list for next year for the GR…. Can’t wait and I will push my MR2 roadster even harder until then
Boxer engine often has an oil leak. It costs $2000 to fix it in Japan. Some people paid $4500 for engine trouble. Subaru doesn't sell much in Japan because it takes time and money a lot after all.
@@hoopofficial4371 except Toyota will turn their channel / internet presence upside-down until they find one instance of high reving the car to deny any warranty claim.
@@deniscdyck That was a dealer that denied that one claim that made it all over the internet. Toyota has since investigated the incident and overturned that dealer-denied claim and are honoring the warranty anyway.
drove both.. they're ABSOLUTLEY DRASTICALLY OVEREXAGGERATING about the differences between the power. watch them even race in a straight line its essentially equal.
Thank you for your sanity. They repeatedly state they've moved the torque/HP crossover when every freshman engineer can tell you it has to be 5252rpm for all engines ever
The BRZ is actually a little faster. The difference in tunes is obvious if the graph can be trusted, but yes they worded it poorly. Same crossover, different curves.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used. That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
Think the gr86 looks much better then the 2nd gen brz, and it feels much better driving stock not as comfortable but more firm and tailhappy like it should be. The gt86 always had the best guages, but the 1st gen subaru had better interior and exterior quality.
@@shawnskates I almost went BRZ for that reason. Decided on GR86 “roll the dice” wait then the FTV Issue which is obviously both so I pulled out all together. Can’t deal with a ticking time bomb. Slight exaggeration I know but you get my point. 🤣
@@hoopofficial4371 not to mention the markups. Honestly I think it's a great video but based on other reviews you would be hard pressed to drive a BRZ and walk way thinking it's a boring car that is boring to drive like they did here it seems a bit sensationalist to be honest they do the same in other videos great videos but definitely has some whiffs of sensationalism. Alot of RUclipsrs bought the BRZ over the GR86 and love it
@@ftr911drvr agree. I drove 2hours to test drive two used ones (one of each). Unfortunately, both were automatics. I did notice a difference in the auto shift programs but both cars weee simply a blast to drive. I like GR86 front and duck bill. A little more value when you look at the upper end trim since BRZ doesn’t include it.
Wow! I've watched SO many reviews of these cars, and nobody has noticed that the ECU tuning is different, and better in the 86. I assumed they'd be identical. Perhaps because most of the other reviews were of the individual cars, not back to back. Great job deep diving into these cars, and thowing the previous gen in there for comparison too. I've got the '17 BRZ with performance pack (Sach dampers, different wheels, Brembo brakes), and it was the first year with the shorter gearing and the (mighty) 5 HP and torque bump. It's fun to drive every time I get in and has been bullet proof. That said, still casting the sideways glance at the new gen. Perhaps when supply chain isn't such a circus. This will be good information to help choose between the BRZ and the 86. Thanks!
@@moldyrefrigerator I did some digging - its not a different tune, its a different throttle map. The GR86 is more aggressive and the BRZ is more linear. Its actually something you can change right now with a throttle controller.
'The handoff between the torque and the horsepower'. Guys, what you feel is the torque. What you're feeling is the shape of the torque curve. The crossover is to do with the units of measurement. There is no such things as transition between torque and HP - torque is what you feel all through the rev range. A car with a good amount of top end horsepower means it can maintain the torque higher up in the rev range. Otherwise, great vid as always.
Great review as always guys. However, the graph in the Subaru showing torque and horsepower is just wrong. It's not mathematically possible to move where horsepower and torque cross. HP = (TQ x RPM)/5252. So it HAS to cross at 5252. Very strange they would do that.
@@DanielC.959 It is a bit of that - you can tell by the way they didn't really cover the superior suspension on the BRZ, but to be fair there is a different throttle mapping on the cars, with the GR86 being more aggressive under partial throttle. Not entirely sure if everyone likes that (a bit harder to drive in carparks lol), and certainly there is no difference in throttle mapping at WOT.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
With the first Gen I prefer the look of the BRZ. With the new generation Toyota absolutely killed it with the styling on the 86. The differences in appearance between the new brz and 86 are subtle, but imo the 86 is stunning. The first time I saw one in person I was almost drooling Very torn as I’ve been looking at a bunch of 2014-17 brz and 86s planning to buy one… but my heart just pulls me towards the GR86 so strongly
I think you're the only media outlet so far, mainstream or otherwise, that has mentioned a power delivery difference between the new twins. Everybody else has concentrated on the suspension and handling, and it appears they've simply glossed over the bit about the engine tuning. Given your experience with the first-generation Toyobarus since 2013, and that you've rightly pointed out the visual differences shown in the onboard power vs torque graphs, I'm inclined to take your points seriously. Regarding the "this feels faster" sentiment - I think it was Keiichi Tsuchiya, in his comparo/review for CARPRIME on the Sodegaura circuit, who got closest to sharing your conclusion. However he also focused on the handling differences. Great work, guys.
I think this is greatly due to the elevation we're at. Up here you really get to feel the power band better than you can at sea level where most of the other outlets are. The lack of air exaggerates the torque curve a little bit. It's why we complained about the torque dip so much in the previous gen because when we review cars at 7000ft+ you REALLY feel these things.
@@Onewheelordeal The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
I went from 2013 FRS to 2015 Mustang Eco to 2018 Kia Stinger 3.3T and as i wonder about having a 2nd car, i cant help but want my first sports car back. Might end up in my garage in the next several years...
In this comparison, Todd discusses the crossover of Torque and Horsepower as a changeable / movable thing. We know it is a fixed reality in engines. His comments are intended to relate the difference in feel between the two cars power delivery. However, it's a mistake we regret. Thanks for watching and point it out to us.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
That overhead view of the two cars meeting at the apex at 9:05 - brilliant shot!
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed!
@@EverydayDriver y'all need to Google about the 5252rpm torque/HP crossover that's a law of math
@@EverydayDriver how many takes to pull off that timing?
@@EverydayDriver Yeah, I noticed this was a shot that wasn’t much necessary but you guys went the extra mile to set it up. I’m loving these videos. I own a 22 BRZ and didn’t know the difference until now. I’m hoping ECU gets cracked soon, I want to tune closer to the GR and see what simple bolt ons will do.
This. was going to comment the same thing.
The 86/BRZ platform is a public service.
Amazing that they exist at all.
Smile 😊
A diamond in a world of poo
I saw a japanese video in youtube, they tested both brz and gr86 in track. the brz beats the gr86 and got better lap time. they explain the differences as follow: the brz is more stable and has better control which makes it better for time attack where the gr86 has faster throttle response and more over steer which makes it better for drifting.
I’ve seen other track comparisons where the BRZ was quicker, so I think it’s close enough that a track can suit one car more than the other.
@@dr.magnanimous8973 The Drift King is going to like a more tail happy car. It probably better suits his driving style.
It’s called buyers confirmation bias
Its the other way round. 86 is 1 second faster than the brz.
@@subiesnacks8446 Here yes, but not at every track
Went with the Subaru. Ease of ordering, price (no markup/add ons) and because early reports were that it was a little softer/quieter. Super happy with it.
Had a 2016 BRZ, now have a 2022 BRZ. This thing is sooo much better as a daily. The seats are way more supportive and ergonomically correct and the suspension is way more compliant. I went with the BRZ for the same reasons as you and I do not regret it at all. Ordered exactly what I wanted, waited a few months, paid MSRP with no BS games or markup, drove away happy. Subaru FTW!
@@soilent9618 where did you bought your subaru with no markups?
@@davidsky826 Bryan Subaru in Metairie, LA.
Hey Ak! Is it true that if you order from Subaru, it will be made and shipped from Japan, as opposed to being on a waitlist with Toyota?
Same here man. I also prefer the front of the brz over the GR. Recently added the sti front lip 🤙🏽
I ended up buying a 23' BRZ even thought I prefer the look of the GR...mostly because I had a horrific experience at the Toyota dealer and a very pleasant experience at my local Subaru dealer.
A 20k "market adjustment" will do that to you.
have 2023s started shipping out? mine arrives in November
@@davey9090 - i havnt heard anything yet.
Buy the duckbill if you want. I’ve seen it for $400-500 and you can install it yourself. Thing is I’ve only seen red, black & white. I went with black on my sapphire, think it looks cool and the car kinda needs it.
The front…well I think you’ll warm up to it. I did, it’s not bad at all in person, tbh I like the shape of the vents and the bottom lip on the Subaru more, I’ll probably get a mesh grill when available, but the little shark teeth is a nice touch. Both are good looking cars. And suspension can be changed, ECU will take a bit of time it seems. Also the front plate on the Subaru is in worse place me thinks, mesh seems cleaner.
@@davey9090 ordered mine in April. My 2023 brz will be here next month
The drone shot of the cars going opposite directions was so cool!
Always enjoy the refreshing perspective you two have on cars that literally every youtube channel gets to drive. The difference in ECU tuning is fascinating.
I didn’t know the ecu tuning difference existed honestly. I personally haven’t seen that anymore until now and I did google it and found an article from the drive where Subarus planning manager said they had different ecu tunes
@@JttM199 Very interesting
Yes my brz feels completely different from my dads gr86.
The shot @9:12 at the 180° turn with the cars coming opposite directions...... Awesome!
I finally picked up my own GR86 Premium, manual, in Neptune Blue yesterday. First car I ever bought, and I love being in it so much!
The best part is getting out of the gym, full of adrenaline and driving it hard and getting those perfect clutch catches and drifts on street turns. It’s so much fun. I own a sapphire BRZ with a black ducktail.
Grats on the first car purchase! I'm at the front of the waitlist at my local Toyota dealership and they have me down to reserve the Special Edition that's supposed to be here in fall, but I'll admit - they can tempt me with that Neptune Blue... Of the available colors, you definitely chose the best one!
@@Dreznin what is the special edition? that's news to me
@@G_P_G It's a 860-unit 10th Anniversary trim. It's a GR86 Premium, but with forged wheels, the GR exhaust system, and an orange paint that is exclusive to it. Raiti's Rides did a walk-around of it when it was unveiled back in June if you want to see it - Toyota also has it on their site, but it's still in their "Upcoming Models" section since it comes out in the fall.
The reason the power graphs look different is because the scales are different, not because the engine tuning differences result in the torque and power curves shifting in the RPM band and crossing at different points. Look at the relative magnitudes for torque and power at 7000 RPM on the two graphics. We know both cars make the same peak power at 7000 RPM. Since Power is Torque x Rotation speed, that means both cars are also making the same torque at 7000 RPM, but the Toyota's graph would lead you to believe it's making significantly more torque than the Subaru because the scales are different. If talking about power in horsepower and torque in lb-ft, the curves always cross at 5,252 RPM if you use the same Y axis scale for power and torque. If using power in kW and torque in N-m, the curves will always cross at 9,549 RPM if the Y axis scales are the same for torque and power. If the curves cross at some other RPM, it's because torque and power aren't being plotted on the same scale. The Toyota's torque scale starts at 100 N-m but their power scale starts at 0. Subaru's graphic doesn't have numbers on the Y axis, but based on the cross-over point at around 4,800 RPM and the and the relative magnitudes of the torque and power curves, my guess is that their torque and power scales both start at 0 and their power scale is 2x the torque scale. If one car feels peppier than the other, my guess is that it's due to a difference in throttle pedal calibration. Toyota may give more throttle opening earlier in the pedal. Or it's placebo effect.
Completely agree. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the engine tuning is virtually identical. The throttle maps are clearly different. I’ve had several cars with configurable throttle maps and the “perceived” effect can seem quite dramatic. It’s mostly an illusion though.
Sounds reasonable to me, they already bought the GR86, confirmation bias.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
Toyota has acknolodge that they tweaked the throttle body response to be less linear. The GR86 seems more spirited than the BRZ due to more throttle from less accelerator pedal travel. Some people seem to like this and others complain on the track that it is harder to achieve the right partial throttle with the GR86.
I have seen no evidence from Subaru and Toyota that the have seperate engine tunes. Noting the time and cost required to meet regulatory requirements, I doubt that the extra money would be spent on this. It is more probable that both Subaru and Toyota colaborated to tune this FA24D, especially noting the mix of Subaru and Toyota technologies on this engine.
@@itsthemetho I believe it. A quick fix for BRZ owners would be to buy a Pedal Controller that can make the throttle less or more sensitive. Toyota GR86 and Subaru BRZ are both virtually identical besides an absolute minuscule level that no one would notice.
I really didn't know which to choose (aesthetically, I like bits of both). I didn't realize there was such a difference that I probably would have just bought whatever was available. I'm so glad you guys made this video!
They are clearly justifying their purchase in this video. Don't fall for it. Purchase the one YOU like the most, not the one these guys are biased towards because they purchased one.
@@denisdyck8800They explain why each one is different there's really no biased in this review you're reaching
The green is sweet. I know Todd likes Skittle colors, but the dark green gets my vote for appearance. As an autocrosser I'd be curious to see a run down from that perspective between the 86 and BRZ. I suspect the difference would be minimal but it would be interesting. When placing an order in October 2021 there was no way to know how the two would separate their version. It came down to the Toyota dealer no having any information and Subaru being able to give me an order and ETA. With today's supply chain I suspect there is very little cross shopping via test drives. We all take our guess, order, and hope.
Just got the 86 and I’m in love.
HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5252
Since HP is a calculated figure derived from TQ, they will always cross at 5252rpm. If Subaru‘a graph shows otherwise, it is either not a legitimate representation of the curves or it represents alternative units (eg Nm and KW) that cross at a different rpm because the formula is different.
You sir are out here doing the good work. Crazy to be automotive "professionals" that don't know that basic law
Or the scale on the graphs are different in the 86. This was very weird on how they worded it.
This needs to be pinned. I was about to comment the same thing. Doesnt seem like EverydayDriver understands the relationship between the two
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
As a 1st gen owner, I really appreciated your back to back comparison of the 1st generations on track, back in 2012 or 2013. The differences between the setups of the cars, though subtle, are there, and I'm so happy you've done it again for the second generation. I wasn't sure which one I would like more in the second generation (can't drive them without deposits locally), but your comments make it pretty clear: the 86 has more energy, which is what I want in a driver's car.
....now the real question: the brand new GR86 or a used 987 Cayman? I have a feeling you'll be addressing this in a future video!
Cayman, that should not be questioned
@@Carlos.Rivera haha as a past owner of BRZ and GT86 i would rather have a cayman any day of the week 🤣🤣
@@patrickbateman7122 As a former 987 Boxster owner, former 2013 BRZ owner, and current 996 owner, I will say the new car is pretty freaking great. But yeah, difficult choice for sure. Early 86/BRZ vs 987 I chose 987 all day. The new GR86 though? That's a more interesting comparison.
@@phattyhales tbf i haven't driven a GR86, they sold out in 30 mins here in uk but someone can get me a test drive although i can't buy one 🤦♂️ will be interesting to see if its the car i always wanted it to be but i have doubts. I just don't think flat 4s make good sports car engines..
If you can afford the maintenance on a Cayman I can't imagine the GR86 being more enjoyable. But I can't, so GR86 for me lol
Going from my 2020 performance pack BRZ to a 2023 base GR86 very soon... I am so excited! Car gets to the port tomorrow. So glad since I've started my engineering career I have listened to all of your advice and enjoyed this platform, and completely owned up to having the disease.
@Trizair Buy it. It is a better car in every measurable way... except fuel economy, but if you don't drive with a lead foot, you can get very decent fuel economy. I went from the top trimmed last MY 1st gen to a base 2nd gen and it feels every bit as refined inside, as well. And, finally, unplug the sound. Sounds fine under 4k, but wow, it's bad above that.
I’ve been WAITING for this comparison. Thank you so much E.D.
First of all, I loved this comparison - very thorough and nuanced.
There's a funny moment at 12:40 when Todd says "on the right canyon road, you may never need to brake" and almost immediately at 12:47 there's a shot of car's brake lights flashing :). I didn't know if you planned that intentionally.
What a beautifully videod episode , great shots,creative angles. This video boys is a work of art, one of your best!
IKR, their videos are among the best GR/BRZ videos. I think the one that competes is the hagerty GR one, but this one kinda packs more information and the hagerty has more fun driving (180 drive off, and lots of drifts) and funny moments.
how ironic, all of my car options that I'm considering being reviewed in one video! this is great! thank you guys
I love them all. Interesting to see they’ve actually put some thought into the feel and didn’t just slap the parts together. I will say though…. I like the front of the first gen just a bit more. It looks sharper to me. I think it’s the more horizontal approach. Looks are subjective of course.
I’m sure there will be a conversion soon enough lol
This is the video that needed to be made. Thank you so much for getting all these cars together and sharing your thoughts. Cheers!
the hakone color combo is honestly sweet af
A good friend of mine ordered an identical BRZ in December and took delivery of it in June. Before it even left the dealership, he installed coilovers, a brembo big brake kit front and rear, unequal length header, full exhaust, short throw shifter and a few JDM bits (he's a Subaru master tech).
As a former owner of a '13 BRZ Limited with a few mods, he let me drive it on some local twisty roads while he road in the passenger seat.
You guys...oh my God, I drove that car as hard as I felt comfortable on a public road...I scared him a little bit. The whole time, the car remained DEAD stable and planted, very neutral in corners and the tires wouldn't even squeal...it just refused to let go. And you're absolutely right about the overall feel of these cars, that BRZ felt so much more solid and "finished" than my '13 BRZ did.
second-generation
Thanks for your detailed explanation of the differences. The GR86 is not necessarily the better car. It is better for the two of you based on your preferences. While I agree that the GR is the better car for the two of you, your detailed explanation of the differences helped me decide that the BRZ is the better car for me. I have put down a deposit on a BRZ, based in part, on your reviews.
Thank you so much for your videos and your channel. Whenever i consider cancelling my pre-orders here in Australia, i watch your videos and im reminded why i love driving and my enjoyment of sports cars. I look forward to my GR86 arriving in March 2023. Thank you
Congrats on a year of ownership! How does it ride on our roads?
@Golas23rd ended up with a BRZ. Its amazing fun to drive at al speeds. I dont need more power. The road and tyre noise is quite loud on the highway...
Thanks for everyone who worked on this videos. Great camera work. I would love to see these guys do some track battles or review a challenger
Great report. Ya made me think, maybe I made a mistake ordering a BRZ, BUT I am 66 with replacement knees and a back held together with titanium. I ordered a stick, so the added sophistication of the Subaru will be welcome. I get amused by BRZ owners who look down in the Subaru.
As of your posting, I'm very happy with 10 y.o. 1st gen. FRS. I truly appreciate the way you both refer back to the gen 1 cars. Mine has seen the road course a few times and looking forward to a few more times. Back in the day, with my '68 Coronet 440 R/T, I did live 1/4 quarter mile at a time. The problem was that started riding motorcycles, to which Muscle can hardly compete. Had this affordable design been around at that point in time, I might be a retire Race Car Driver. It would be nice to drive the canyon roads that you show, but I'd be happy to run US 129 in TN with you and talk about fun.
Great comparison, Thanks for the push to go buy one! Only 500 more miles to go till its broken in and I can fully explore the limits.
I own a 2022 Neptune Blue GR86 and love driving it everyday, I find reasons to just go for a drive.
This boxer engine are so good on long distance driving. I don’t feel fatigued at all. I’ve driven 2000 miles for 19 hrs straight I wasn’t even exhausted when I got to my destination.
Great job guys!! Another quality video and honest critique of the cars driven!!
Travis's Dad (learning to drive manual)
Good back to back gentleman. I am glad to see someone shared with us why they are different. Now to go drive em. (:
The styling of the GR86 is what made me buy one.
looks good specially in person....brz kinda has smiling look
Was it worth it? Any issues so far?
@@AGZTGAMING I ended up trading it in, the car is amazing and so much fun to drive, it just doesn’t offer much room. I bought a 2022 Mazda3 Turbo. Having the extra room has been great plus the overall ride quality of the 3 is way better, but it’s a different beast.
@@Scott-mu4xw awesome good to hear but did it cause any rtv issues while you had it?
Man, I have to say that the production values of your videos are really high. Super sharp and professionally done.
Glad you like what we do and we greatly appreciate you watching!
This production is right up there. Well done, guys. What a great content here.
Thank you. We appreciate you watching!
you guys are my favourite car reviewers, good shots, always in depth with the little details and really good at vocalizing and getting your point across that's easy to understand. Keep up the good work! That overhead shot with the 2 cars driving by was satisfying how coordinated you guys were
Thank you for your kind words and generous support! We're glad that our efforts resonate with you, and we're thankful to have you watching!
Just traded my 2018 brz for a neptune blue gr86. Took two years to get it in this colour. Hoping to make it a forever car, your video here was what sold me the most on it and i dont regret it. @@EverydayDriver
👏👏👏For the shot at the 9:05 mark.
Fantastic video, gentlemen!! I desperately want one of the new GR86es in Hakone Green with the bronze wheels and tan interior! Please, PLEASE Toyota, in Hakone green!
Fascinating that the differences are so discernable!
They are not.
I had a 2013 FRS. I saw a GR86 last night. Now I want one again.
I rented a GR86 on Turo. It’s much faster much a stock FRS. Has 45 whp more than previous gen had (170whp vs. 215whp). My modded FRS has full exhaust, tune, and e85 and the GR86 stock is still faster. Infact I just saw a video of a 2022 BRZ beating the new 2022 WRX in a drag race, and the WRX has the same engine with a turbo (and more weight). Second-gen cars are officially not slow anymore.
@@moldyrefrigerator same here with the frs. I was stage 2 but it was an automatic and I always felt it’d be more fun in manual. I want a Neptune premium manual next time around hold the extra rtv please.
So it sounds like you should buy the BRZ for the better suspension, then take it to your local Toyota dealer and have them disable the fake engine sound generator and reflash the ECU with the GR86 tune. This will give you the best dynamics of both cars. Then, depending on how you feel about the looks, you either live with the Subaru's front bumper and lack of rear spoiler, buy an aftermarket bumper and spoiler, or try to fit the Toyota front bumper and rear duck bill spoiler and paint them to match. Problem solved!
Personal preference, but I'm not a fan of either the small or extended duckbill spoiler on either vehicle. That element of the design has not grown on me at all. Hoping there will be some other spoiler options down the road. I still think overall the first gen BRZ was a better looking vehicle, and the second gen they started throwing on more garish items to jazz it up such as the odd side rocker fin things. Those have at least grown on me a bit. The loss of the round tail lights though, I am shedding a tear, lol.
Already at 12k Miles Love this Car! Keeps me goin!
My choice is the BRZ 2023 Limited as my new daily driver. I prefer the suspension from what I've heard, the idea that the same motor makes more power for Toyota is obviously a tune or something that can be overcome. Can't wait for my new car :D!!!! Also I can actually get a BRZ good luck with a GR.
1st Gen Subaru BRZ owner here. Okay it's more like Gen 1.5 because it's a 2019 after they updated the engine in 2017 if I'm not mistaken. What is sounds like is that the 1st Gen Toyobaru Twins (R.I.P FRS) are Windows Vista and the 2nd Gen Subayota twins are Windows 7.
HP and Torque always cross at 5,252 RPM so I am not sure what is meant that they cross at earlier or later points.
The problem is that these two doorknobs didn’t notice that the subaru doesn’t have the y axis scale, so they misinterpret it as showing a different crossover point. They don’t really understand torque, hp, and what the graphs show. So, they think the graphs show a difference- instead of most likely being scaled differently, and then they claim that backs up their subjective impression of a difference. It doesn’t back them up, and even if their impression is correct, it could easily be differences in throttle tuning - in fact that’s much more likely.
I prefer the frs because of the better steering, lighter, cheaper and more readily available aftermarket support.
Thanks to bringing to light the differences between the cars - kind of the first mention of the power delivery differences.
It's because there isn't one.
@@Jaylyons1 ? I mean I saw the graphs. One meets with HP at 4700rpm the other at like 5600.
Look closer at 11:38. One graph has zero torque at the bottom (not marked), the other has clearly marked 100 Nm at the bottom. Different scales. The crossover of HP and torque curves is defined by what scale and offsets you use when plotting.
Everyone’s zeroing in on a graph. They mention it sure, but the feel is different. Put em on a dyno and let’s get some real data shall we?
@@Rob165x The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
I don’t understand the comments about the torque and horsepower graphs crossing at different points. 5,252 is always the point in the rev range on a dyno where horsepower and torque will cross paths. Google it!
So whatever you guys are saying makes no sense!
Thank you thank you thank you, I'm all over these comments trying to let ppl know
Came here to say this- something is amiss here.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
@@datacipher
Was thinking same. I kept wondering what was going on. My son has a 24 GR and I have a 23 BRZ. The power is identical. The only difference I felt was the throttle response was peakier down low on the GR where as in my BRZ it feels more linear. The handling feel is really splitting hairs.
Excellent video! Very interesting to know the differences are more pronounced than in the first gen! And as others have noted, the editing and camera work is superb!
So glad these cars exist!
The differences sound like some pretty heavy confirmation bias tbh lol
My son who has a 23 BRZ recently visited me, and he’s rarely going to concede anything, but the first time he got on it he immediately said that my GR 86 feels faster. The torque/ HP graph diff surprised me. There May actually be something to it. My opinion prior to seeing that, was that even these guys “fell” for the trickery of how Toyota putting most of the throttle in the first third of the pedal (which honestly I’m not so sure I like) . As it feels like it goes so willingly with little throttle. But the trickery there, is that the rest of the pedal, there isn’t much there. But if that curve showing the torque flattening out quicker in the BRZ , while the GR86 rises further may be creating a true feeling vs just trickery, or a combination of both.. What do you guys think??
@@boldcitycc The BRZ has a much more linear throttle curve, which is preferable to anyone who actually likes canyon running or taking the car on track. Toyota put all the throttle response in the first 43% of pedal travel and it just completely dies after that. Terrible tuning to make the car seem faster to people who are easily fooled. It has no place an enthusiast car and is more suited to a base Corolla.
Thank you guys! After this video, I have finally made up my mind about which one to get!
so which one will u get?
That shot at 9:05 is so good!
This kind of car about Balance in Money, Performance, Power and Fun is so rare these day. I'm kinda glad we have this two.
So if you gave the BRZ the same ECU map as the GT86 you'd have the same responsiveness and the better chassis with lighter steering?
Yep, I drove the GR86 on track for 4-5 laps, and got that “I should buy one” feeling. Great comparison!
Great vid...it would be cool if you guys would be willing to drop the oil pan on your GR86 and check for silicone as part of your ownership experience.
That dark green looks amazing on the old one
I’m confused. “Nice to see such a broad difference”, and “if we’d driven the BRZ first we wouldn’t have bought it”. And in the next breath but “the level of nuance we are talking about…”.
I get the suspension differences, but I wonder if the actual engine difference between the two is primarily throttle mapping? That can certainly make a car feel more urgent.
As mentioned specifically in the film, Paul thought there was a bigger difference in the cars than Todd did, so you’re comparing two different peoples assessment. And the power difference noted was apparent at partial or full throttle, the BRZ feeling a bit more labored than the 86, and more similar to the first Gen. Thanks for watching.
@@EverydayDriver Here's a thought. Race them against each other.
@@EverydayDriver I’ve haven’t driven the GR86 yet (it is still to be released here) but I have driven a 2014, 2017, and 2022 BRZ and the new FA24 doesn’t remind me of the old FA20 very much at all. It feels a lot more refined and less gravelly and doesn’t sound like it hates being revved (unlike the FA20). The BRZ’s FA24 still has the slightest dip and you can just feel it in line with actual dashboard graph but the moment it crosses the Power curve (which in 2nd feels like half a second or less later) it takes off all the way to cutout. There is zero sensation of “falling in a hole” like you get with the FA20. With respect to the new BRZ’s suspension compared with the old one, there’s a fair bit more supplenesses to it which makes it less of a handful on bumpy backroads and a bit more liveable around town. It feels a bit like the old BRZ with a dash of ND MX5/Miata and way more structural stiffness than both of them. I think it’s an improvement. The new BRZ still works great on track out of the box too.
@@EverydayDriver Interesting! You are the first reviewers that noticed that engine tunning difference 👍
@@EverydayDriver The difference is throttle tuning. You guys should know this.
Thank you, great comparison and very interesting conclusion.
I happen to like the look of the BRZ much more so than the gr86 ..its nose looks way nicer with its vents and inlets vs the gr86...to each his, own
You guys are really Gud at exaggerating stuff. Always go for the OG, which is the BRZ
These guys deserve to have way more subscribers than what they have.
As usual awesome video guys. Great feedback on all three cars. The more I watched the more I want one. Just not the right time.
Have you heard of the Silicone issue affecting the 2022 BRZ, 86, and WRX ? I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter. My car is actually an affected car and have seen silicone on the oil dipstick and there are plenty of other people online now talking about this on forums and uploading videos of them looking into their oil pick up tube.
This was filmed before the recent online discussion of the RTV issue. We’re sorry to hear you are affected. We have discussed it on our podcast and will continue to as it develops but so far the online coverage makes it seem guaranteed, while the number of cases is small. Of course we will be following along, but also driving our car. Thanks for watching.
@@EverydayDriver I appreciate the response! Is there a link to your podcasts by chance?
@@isaacmagana7078 the podcast can be found in whatever podcast outlet you prefer to listen through.
@@phattyhales awesome thanks !
That is terrible, silicon on the oil😲.
I had an old '80s car's engine destroyed because on a rebuild the mechanic was careless with the silicon application on the engine heads.
Love the forest green color with that bronze combo!!
Horsepower and torque always cross at the same number given the same units. In horsepower and lbs/ft they cross at 5252.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
Its the first time that any reviewer points out that the tunning of the engine on the BRZ and GR86 are different, and that the Toyota 86 gr performs better than the Subaru BRZ in this aspect. Most of the reviewers only point out that the only difference were in the suspension components, and that one of them was arriving to the tests with DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid to better withstand the track abuse.
I'm looking forward to the end of mark-ups era on the GR86 and I'll buy one at MSRP or less. 😉
Today is my Birthday, the Toyota 86 is my favorite car ever, and I couldn't have asked for a better gift! ❤️😩🙌🏻
Happy Birthday, and thank you for watching!
@@EverydayDriver Thank You! It is a great video! 🙌🏻✨
I went BRZ route because of markups on GR86. I am planning to put on every STI accessories that come out that improves handling starting with flexible v bar. Not going to do any engine related mods for warranty period but I assume the response would be fixed with a tune.
May I ask which add ons have you done? I’m looking to order one very soon. I was just thinking the same thing. I Tune any car I drive except my tesla so Subaru seems to work better for me.
@@TUGRA14 I went for short throw shifter, sti knob, footwell illumination kit, auto dimming mirror, cargo tray, all weather mat in my order. After that I have installed spare tire on the car.
Great comparison, guys!
When they first came out I was 100% team GR86 for looks. The BRZ has grown on me sooo much. It looks more sleek and mature, the 86 is starting to look tacky imo. Can’t go wrong with either.
Same here. That ginormous half fake grill is getting old very quick to my taste. At first I liked the GR86's looks better but now the BRZ's friendly smile is winning me over.
Agreed - just in the few months I've been seriously shopping both cars, the 86 front end has already started aging badly to my eyes. I always thought the "dimples" on the BRZ looked better than the inlets on the 86, and I see the smile more as an evil grin anyway. Probably due to previously owning an ecstatically happy 2010 MS3.
I own the BRZ and hear all this hype about the GR grill, but in person, I like the BRZ vent shape more and I like the bottom lip on the BRZ more. And the shark fins on the grill make it a little more aggressive than otherwise. If anything I’ll consider a mesh option if it releases, but I think the bigger grill on the GR changes the hood line a little too much, it makes it feel more 90’s JDM, yes, but we’re not in the 90’s lol. I think changing the bumper to the GR one is too much a stretch. Suspension & eventually ECU tuning will make these mechanically identical. And I already got the duckbill. Btw…I don’t think the fog lights fit on the GR86 😬 I think those are cool.
I'm happy with the BRZ grill, it has more character, the GR86 looks more common and the vents look like a design from all the other econo Toyotas. I person the BRZ front looks wider and lower, a bit weird maybe but I'll take weird over normal!
GR86 looks way better than the BRZ and this is coming from a Civic Si owner.....The front end of the GR86 looks way more aggressive
I'm glad I picked the one I initially liked the most. Thankfully I don't have to regret a GR86 over the BRZ.
We need a gen2 hakone edition with a couple TRD performance mods added in !
Thank you guys for this video. This is definitely extremely valuable information for anyone shopping these two cars which I am.
In Australia the highest spec GR86 in manual is approximately 11% more expensive than the equivalent spec manual BRZ Here Toyota is pricing its manual and automatic the same. Pricing for the automatics here, GR86 vs BRZ is negligible. We also aren't being offered the extended ducktail as standard on the top spec GR86 but do get a no cost interior option of red stitching, carpets and door trims. Would be interesting to know if the 11% Toyota tax would change the reviewers opinions.
Thanks for the in depth comparison... Now my mind is made up!
You guys do know that torque always crosses HP at 5252rpm due to the formula used to calculate HP being-Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5,252. Likely the scaling of the graphs is different or you are dealing with some display tomfoolery.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
This video just solidify my decision on buying the GR86!
The second generation GR 86 looks so nice. I want one.
One of the best comparisons of the twins out there! I‘m on the waiting list for next year for the GR…. Can’t wait and I will push my MR2 roadster even harder until then
Thanks for the great content and I was so bummed to have missed you guys during your Pilgrimage trip
Glad you enjoyed. Thank you for watching!
Boxer engine often has an oil leak. It costs $2000 to fix it in Japan. Some people paid $4500 for engine trouble. Subaru doesn't sell much in Japan because it takes time and money a lot after all.
Are you guys concerned about the RTV sealant issue? Hopefully Toyota/Subaru can address this before the engine possibly dies from oil starvation.
Todd and Paul recently discussed this on a podcast episode.
@@phattyhales oh nice, will check it out. Thanks!
@@harris7963 I will save u some time. Basically said they will just drive it and deal with it if it occurs. In Toyota they trust.
@@hoopofficial4371 except Toyota will turn their channel / internet presence upside-down until they find one instance of high reving the car to deny any warranty claim.
@@deniscdyck That was a dealer that denied that one claim that made it all over the internet. Toyota has since investigated the incident and overturned that dealer-denied claim and are honoring the warranty anyway.
I really like how the new BRZ looks.
drove both.. they're ABSOLUTLEY DRASTICALLY OVEREXAGGERATING about the differences between the power. watch them even race in a straight line its essentially equal.
Thank you for your sanity.
They repeatedly state they've moved the torque/HP crossover when every freshman engineer can tell you it has to be 5252rpm for all engines ever
The BRZ is actually a little faster.
The difference in tunes is obvious if the graph can be trusted, but yes they worded it poorly. Same crossover, different curves.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
That they try to use the graphs to validate their subjective impressions is pathetic. Any actual difference is likely due to throttle tuning - as many have pointed out. Wish they’d just own up to their mistakes.
Yaaaaaaaas! New everyday driver video day!
Think the gr86 looks much better then the 2nd gen brz, and it feels much better driving stock not as comfortable but more firm and tailhappy like it should be. The gt86 always had the best guages, but the 1st gen subaru had better interior and exterior quality.
Torque and torque delivery is so underrated
When you're about to decide and they come out with a video so you can change your mind.
But…. At least you can spec out and order a BRZ. Toyota allocation process is ridiculous.
@@hoopofficial4371 agreed. They want $1000 down just to have first come first serve. Toyota is struggling to meet demand.
@@shawnskates I almost went BRZ for that reason. Decided on GR86 “roll the dice” wait then the FTV Issue which is obviously both so I pulled out all together. Can’t deal with a ticking time bomb. Slight exaggeration I know but you get my point. 🤣
@@hoopofficial4371 not to mention the markups. Honestly I think it's a great video but based on other reviews you would be hard pressed to drive a BRZ and walk way thinking it's a boring car that is boring to drive like they did here it seems a bit sensationalist to be honest they do the same in other videos great videos but definitely has some whiffs of sensationalism. Alot of RUclipsrs bought the BRZ over the GR86 and love it
@@ftr911drvr agree. I drove 2hours to test drive two used ones (one of each). Unfortunately, both were automatics. I did notice a difference in the auto shift programs but both cars weee simply a blast to drive. I like GR86 front and duck bill. A little more value when you look at the upper end trim since BRZ doesn’t include it.
So enjoy your channel.
Wow! I've watched SO many reviews of these cars, and nobody has noticed that the ECU tuning is different, and better in the 86. I assumed they'd be identical. Perhaps because most of the other reviews were of the individual cars, not back to back. Great job deep diving into these cars, and thowing the previous gen in there for comparison too. I've got the '17 BRZ with performance pack (Sach dampers, different wheels, Brembo brakes), and it was the first year with the shorter gearing and the (mighty) 5 HP and torque bump. It's fun to drive every time I get in and has been bullet proof. That said, still casting the sideways glance at the new gen. Perhaps when supply chain isn't such a circus. This will be good information to help choose between the BRZ and the 86. Thanks!
Who cares about the tune, once they crack this ECU, real ones are just gonna slap it with a better OFT or EcuTek tune anyway.
@@moldyrefrigerator I did some digging - its not a different tune, its a different throttle map. The GR86 is more aggressive and the BRZ is more linear. Its actually something you can change right now with a throttle controller.
I'll keep my new second gen factory spec since I've modded the hell out ofy GT86
'The handoff between the torque and the horsepower'. Guys, what you feel is the torque. What you're feeling is the shape of the torque curve. The crossover is to do with the units of measurement. There is no such things as transition between torque and HP - torque is what you feel all through the rev range. A car with a good amount of top end horsepower means it can maintain the torque higher up in the rev range.
Otherwise, great vid as always.
Great review as always guys. However, the graph in the Subaru showing torque and horsepower is just wrong. It's not mathematically possible to move where horsepower and torque cross. HP = (TQ x RPM)/5252. So it HAS to cross at 5252. Very strange they would do that.
Yes it’s called BS, and buyers confirmation bias
@@DanielC.959 It is a bit of that - you can tell by the way they didn't really cover the superior suspension on the BRZ, but to be fair there is a different throttle mapping on the cars, with the GR86 being more aggressive under partial throttle. Not entirely sure if everyone likes that (a bit harder to drive in carparks lol), and certainly there is no difference in throttle mapping at WOT.
The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
With the first Gen I prefer the look of the BRZ. With the new generation Toyota absolutely killed it with the styling on the 86. The differences in appearance between the new brz and 86 are subtle, but imo the 86 is stunning. The first time I saw one in person I was almost drooling
Very torn as I’ve been looking at a bunch of 2014-17 brz and 86s planning to buy one… but my heart just pulls me towards the GR86 so strongly
I think you're the only media outlet so far, mainstream or otherwise, that has mentioned a power delivery difference between the new twins. Everybody else has concentrated on the suspension and handling, and it appears they've simply glossed over the bit about the engine tuning. Given your experience with the first-generation Toyobarus since 2013, and that you've rightly pointed out the visual differences shown in the onboard power vs torque graphs, I'm inclined to take your points seriously.
Regarding the "this feels faster" sentiment - I think it was Keiichi Tsuchiya, in his comparo/review for CARPRIME on the Sodegaura circuit, who got closest to sharing your conclusion. However he also focused on the handling differences.
Great work, guys.
I think this is greatly due to the elevation we're at. Up here you really get to feel the power band better than you can at sea level where most of the other outlets are. The lack of air exaggerates the torque curve a little bit. It's why we complained about the torque dip so much in the previous gen because when we review cars at 7000ft+ you REALLY feel these things.
They also talk about moving the torque/HP crossover and that's impossible because it's always 5252rpm for everything due to how HP is calculated
Now this is a loremaster.
@@Onewheelordeal The problem is that the doorknob reviewers don’t notice there is no y axis shown on the brz, and they don’t understand hp, torque, and what the curves really show. If subaru scaled the y axis differently (almost certainly since it doesn’t cross at 5252) then it won’t cross at the same point. That’s just an illusion of course. It would mean that at the point of crossover in the brz graph hp doesn’t equal torque since a different scale was used.
I went from 2013 FRS to 2015 Mustang Eco to 2018 Kia Stinger 3.3T and as i wonder about having a 2nd car, i cant help but want my first sports car back. Might end up in my garage in the next several years...
In this comparison, Todd discusses the crossover of Torque and Horsepower as a changeable / movable thing. We know it is a fixed reality in engines. His comments are intended to relate the difference in feel between the two cars power delivery. However, it's a mistake we regret. Thanks for watching and point it out to us.