What is Parasitic Design?
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Parasitic design, systems within games that leech from the core mechanics and require support from other systems to function yet never become main, meaningful parts of the gameplay experience.
Temporary systems added to provide empty timesinks, easily removable distraction systems designed to placate players.
However once players realise a system is parasitic, they'll often stop using it because they realise it takes yet gives nothing back/
MMO games are guilty of this in almost every major expansion, systems you just KNOW won't be relevant in the next expansion.
Thanks to the Patreon supporters and Twitch subs for keeping the channel going :D
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It’s good that Josh explained about the mug, otherwise there could have been a misunderstanding!
Ah yes, having the numbers on the back were entirely to explain what it was not. I wouldn't have been able to understand without him explaining it. Thankfully he cleared that up.
He wouldn't want you to think he was calling Callum Upton a mug after all
@@bopsie55 You mean you CAN'T drink from Callum? I'm so confused!
@@pyrix British slang. It's calling someone a fool
Guess Callum got "mugged" by josh
Josh : *Talks about Parasitic Design and uses Warframe Footage*
The literal parasite infestation augment in the Warframe System : *Sweats profusely*
And all of it while fighting the infestation. Oh the irony!
Oh yeah, the Helminth on my ship is quite nervous now.
Well the helminth system's introduction was great IMO. Somewhat lazy but added a needed variety of builds, some new skills and uses for the stockpiles of resources laying arround.
That latest invigorations addition though? Yeah, don't think it can get more parasitic than that one
To be fair, at least DE is trying to synergize their systems, emphasis on trying they definitely haven't succeeded yet and there's a long way to go before that becomes a reality but still, better than just abandoning every extra system and forgetting they even exist.
@@AmaresHappyGamingFamily trying is kinda an overexagerration... with de its one step forward two steps back.
The best example from Warframe was, for nearly 4 years, Archwing. Sepperated space missions where you had to level up some rocket wings, a new ranged and melee weapon, get new mods, and for what? 1 or 2 resources that affected the rest of the game. It has taken them until the last couple of years to start integrating it more properly. There's now an item that let's you call it down and use it on the Open World areas, with a boss added late in Fortuna's life cycle we got a way and reason too call down Archwing ranged weapons for use. Railjack made it so you use the archwing to travel between the ships and boarding objectives or even fight manually (would not recommend as you'll get bombarded from all angles in those missions). However with Fortuna they added another new system; a hoverboard, for mobility and tricks. However since Archwing is usable in open world, and most weapons and abilities don't work on the hoverboards, they are pointless. So the quest for the most recent warframe requires you to grind trickpoints with this system to complete. For hours. And hours.
I might be a bit of a normie but I like the k-drive and the tricks for the vent kids.
Sorry but k-drives are there for new players.
@@xyzen9673 That's not the point. The point is it takes resources from other game modes to support it but doesn't support any of them back in return.
I have several thousand of hours in Warframe
I have never upgraded any Archwing stuff. Only used it when it was necessary.
@@SwedetasticGames Agreed. K drives are useless because in terms of mobility, archwings are far superior. Yarelli was added simply to force people to use K drives, because no one used them prior (and no one uses them now because Yarelli is trash). Pure archwing missions were trash, and that's where railjack comes in to save the day.
TLDR: K drives are trash
Josh, Sir….been a gamer for 24 years and never heard the phrase “parasitic design”….didn’t hear toxic design until riot games started calling their entire player base toxic….
The phrase might be new, the concept for sure isn't.
it's like content islands but fancy
It's for sure a new phrase. I would say as well that the concept is quite new too in the grand scheme of things. Like consider how many years current game designs has existed compared to the invention of games, and it hasn't really existed for that long
The term Parasitic Design has been used in MtG for over a decade and probably more than 20 years, Mark Rosewater (the head designer of MtG since 2003) has been using it in articles about MtG and failed designs since at least 2009. It doesn't see much use outside design circles, in part because most developers do not want to attract attention to the limited long term scope of something they've put out.
I aint never hoid of it
WoW throwing the baby out with the bathwater, after each expansion was always one of the more annoying things for me.
They introduce the skeleton of a system, slowly refine it throughout the expansion, then throw it away.
Was never a fan of pet battles/collecting but I'll never argue that the whole system wasn't a great addition to the world.
Mage tower and class order halls could have been a solid addition to carry forward and expand upon. Minus the awful decision of making each player the "leader" of said class.
They don't even make meaningful cities anymore, which I get. However, they have a city that they can literally teleport!
Imagine if Dalaran was slightly expanded upon each expansion, eg. add a little extra chuck to house the current covenants/factions.
and most of the time the system is only "completed" at the very end when it's soon to be killed off, so people only get to spend a short time with the system that was actually envisioned by the devs
That's why I quit buying Blizzard products. That and the fact the entire company is toxic. Found a nice WotLK repack and I'm fine with letting friends on my server.
Class order halls were seriously the best, I loved them so much
I think its a good thing that they throw out the expansion mechanics otherwise the game would get bloated with systems on top of systems that people would have to deal with to balance out their char. My problem with it is how bad and unbalanced they usually make these systems and how slow they are to fix it's problems. The shadowlands systems that I dealt with before quitting were soo inconvenient to deal with on an hourly basis and the covenant choices were soo infuriatingly unbalanced you would think they were trying to ruin their own game and drive everyone away.
@@CrowbarOfJustice I think they already did that with most of their player base.
Now that I understand the concept, I feel like the Sims series (also: some Paradox titles) is a masterclass in parasitic design. I never had a word for grafting new, partly-redundant mechanics onto a game and then forgetting all about them when grafting even more redundant mechanics onto that corpus. Now I do. Thank you for that.
100%
The first place I heard the term was in regards to Magic: the Gathering. There, it was the idea that a new set's mechanics just relied on you playing more of the same cards from that set, not the other ones currently available in the format. It can definitely be like that with the Grand Strategy stuff from Paradox, for sure.
Though for Paradox, they are trying to simulate specific historical structures, etc. So a parasitic system isn't always a bad thing there.
To be fair at least paradox are still updating systems. Stellaris is going in a better direction now it has a dedicated team tweaking old content to make it work better
"I know we have Cooking and Gourmet cooking, but let's add Baking. Oh, and Juice making"
What's even worse is that the Sims way of gouging their playerbase for ridiculous amounts of money to get the complete product is becoming the standard in simulation games as a whole. Selling expansion packs and DLC is fine when there's a substantial amount of content added, but at some point we should be asking if some of that stuff should've been part of the base game or free updates. For example Cities: Skylines is an amazing game, but if you want all the DLC it's going to cost you the equivalent of 4 full price AAA games. Train Simulator games have so much paid DLC you are probably better off buying a real train.
Perfect example of Parasitic design in Warframe, Archwing when it first came out. It was literally a system on its own that required resources from the base systems of the game to exist. The actual archwings themselves could not be called in to regular mission, and the arch guns and arch melee weapons couldn't be used in regular mission either. It wasn't until Plains of Eidolon that Archwing found another use as a great mode of transportation, and it wasn't until the Profit Taker fight from Fortuna and Orb Vallis that we could summon arch guns to use in normal ground combat. It's not really parasitic anymore, but it also wouldn't affect much if it was straight up removed.
Yeah archwing is such a gimmick thing back then, and its pretty resource with not much to do. Until the "open world" map is released.
Railjack was 100% that on release, now it's like 80% that, so baby steps i guess? I'm still waiting on that railjack team + ground team cooperation they were supposedly testing in Scarlet Spear event.
Archwings and doggos, that's when I played for the last time. And every time I'm tempted to reinstall I think about whatever time-sink they've added to farm and stale progression and it discourages me. I'd be fine with new frames, weapons, environments and enemies but there always has to be a new dumb system gating the content behind bazillions hours of grind -_-;
Even now it's mostly parasitic. Free Roam Archwing use is heavily hobbled by homing missiles which ignore player defences and are given to every other enemy while Railjack Archwing is hobbled by game balance heavily favouring the Railjack itself. Archwings definitely have a point now that they never really had originally, but they're still very superficial - as evidenced by the stagnant state of their balance and lack of weapon/mod variety. Digital Extremes have a long list of parasitic systems which they consistently ignore in favour of adding new ones. As much as I love Necramechs, we didn't need ANOTHER new parasitic system when one of the old ones could have been integrated into the game better. Atmospheric Archwing Melee seemed like the natural next step, but even Necramechs can use that.
I don't think this assessment tells the whole story. Archwing, like many things in Warframe, was implemented in an alpha/beta state. It was incredibly clear that DE wanted to integrate Archwing into the game, the intro quest for Archwing is a merger of on-foot and on-space combat. Jordas Verdict beautifully integrated the two, even having some mechanics that remind me a lot of what Railjack has started to become.
The problem was that DE gave up on it. Implementing Archwing was fine, the failure wasn't in the idea itself, the failure was in the followup.
I just realized that the entire Destiny 2 season model is based on parasitic design. They're continuously adding temporary systems that leach on the game base shooting mechanics and lore (which are very very good), just to give the players short term goals and keep them hooked until the next season. Now I fully understand why I abandoned Destiny 2.
This can also apply to Raid specific armour mods.
They don’t interact with the core game, and only do stuff while inside the raid, and take away from your ability to use other mods.
Now you feel how us WoW/mmorpg players have felt for the last decade. :'( It's honestly sad because the engine is there, the game is there and the mechanics that are amazing have been there.
I really don't think it applies to Destiny. Adding new activities is not really "leeching off of the shooting mechanics" because by that logic any new dungeon, zone, quest etc. Introduced into any game ever would qualify as Parasitic.
@@godqueensadie They're not just adding new activities, they're deleting old ones. They're making stuff you grinded for hours effectively useless. If you return to the game after some time it's like you're back to square one. And where's all the content I paid for or grinded for hundreds of hours of my life? Completely gone or rendered useless, because hey, come grind some more on "new" content that will be irrelevant six months from now.
@@thebaffman4898 They have to do it that way. From what I understand the sunsetting of content is to keep the game playable and not bloated. The remove content to keep the game size down and every time they add something new it needs to work with everything else. Also now all that armor you grinded for you can use as ornaments, so I think they did a good job of addressing the sunsetting issue.
"Hey, wouldn't this be cool?" is one of the most innocuously dangerous sentences in design. Not just game design.
Then ask "is it practical? does it work well?" It helps
Loved hearing about this! I've been homebrewing a lot of equipment and mechanics for DnD 5e, and it's refreshing to take a look at what I've written and adjust accordingly.
I was thinking about this in terms of D&D 5e as well. Although i will point out that in an RPG mechanics that enhance Roleplay, or simulate specific roleplaying aspects feedback into the Immersion. So RPGs work a bit different than Video Games.
E.g. i was thinking about adding the Heat Mechanics from MCDMs Arcadia magazine to the game. They help simulate stolen items and fences/smugglers. The game could easily exist without them. But they help simulate the imagined reality, and complications of selljng stolen items. They also introduce new Characters to the PCs and help immersion into the world. So i think they are not so much parasitic, as they are complex.
Have you considered not playing DnD
It's also worth pointing out that a mechanic being parasitic doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it has the potential to feel bad in certain contexts. If you're just homebrewing stuff for a game and think a bunch of bloated and unrelated systems will be really fun to mess around with for a campaign or two then there's absolutely no reason not to do that if everyone else is on board, if the end result is fun then it was good game design. Parasitic mechanics are mostly an issue in professional products since they're affecting a much wider audience (many of which might not be as into them) and have budgetary issues continuing to support those new systems in the future which leaves them abandoned, but homebrew gamers can just keep adding more onto anything they like at any time.
MTG's Splice mechanic for example didn't work out in the official sets because almost every card with it was bad and they stopped printing Arcane cards altogether after that so there were never any new ways to support them. However, many custom card designers have revisited the keyword since then to make content just as fun and rich as anything else you might find in MTG. It's not that the concept was fundamentally flawed, it's that the execution of how they introduced and maintained it within a consumer product was botched horribly. There's a good lesson to learn there but it shouldn't be "I should never try to have fun with anything that seems like parasitic design ever again."
Ah yes.. warframe's loot islands. This has been the form of content we've been getting since before I started playing in 2018. On the bright side, DE has started to interconnect them.
indeed. so far the tiny connections here and there really elevate the content. of all the mmo devs they are the ones that are willing to make the most bold changes. other exception is ff14. but that was an entire rework
@@cirescythe Warframe is well known to NOT make bold changes, wtf are you talking about? They constantly add random crap that that abandon weeks later and only come back to it to milk it a bit more later on.
@@magnolia549 I think you are talking about fixes to existing game systems. Let’s use some examples shall we? Movement 2.0 adds a movement system that allows players to move at 5x their previous speeds, changing the entire core movement and combat gameplay. Operators, adding a new type of playable character and allowing you to switch between them at will. Railjack, adds a ship and space combat.
Obviously we can debate about how well these new systems have been received but you cannot argue about them being bold. These type of changes to the core game you don’t see even in sequels of games, much less the game itself.
@@AzureRoxe reee reeee REEEE you say? sorry i dont speak whiney vet
@@magnolia549 adding a whole melee combo system, complete movement rework, complete archwing rework, adding new intro tutorial missions, ditching the whole railjack component system to replace it with a mod system that is more in line with the rest of the game and so on. thats the stuff i can think of off the top of my head. but ye. keep screeching cyberkaren
I think what is the best thing in the world is that even though I discovered you through Asmongold....the channel growth after the initial discovery has been so organic and it has been so joyous to watch the Patreon list grow ever larger. You deserve every single moment of the success and attention Josh. Nothing but likes from this side of the pond.
Same boat as you. Discovered him through Asmongold and dove into his "Worst MMO" series. Definitely a great channel and deserves more subs.
I think Josh started showing up for me after I watched a few of AOGs videos. I watch asmongold sometimes, but pretty much only on twitch. Either way, it's a huge plus to my feed.
I randomly came across this channel. Most likely due to watching other similar content. RUclips algorithm was like, "this might interest you". And I'm glad I found this channel. Josh definitely deserves everything he's gotten.
I found Josh because I was searching for videos reviewing Wizard101.
I discovered Josh through Asmongold as well...the funny part is I really like Josh and am already bored with Asmon because he feels so fake.
This is exactly* what Destiny does with its Seasonal Artifacts and Seasonal Systems. Each season, you level these things up over a few months, and while they do have many different uses, they are completely thrown out at the end of the season. Very frustrating.
*edited from "excellent"
I'm glad Bungo stopped removing seasonal activities but potentially not having breach and clear next season is going to sting.
This is part of why I didn't wanna keep playing Destiny. You level whatever artifact you get for the season to get mods relevant for that season and then at the end none of it mattered. Warframe's somewhat bad in this regard, but at least they didn't make Nightwave progression irrelevant after every new season.
Individual Seasonal Artifacts definitely might appear parasitic, but the game's seasonal nature is so deeply ingrained into the core gameplay loop that it gets kinda ambiguous. It's like PoE leagues in a sense, except you only get reset to a certain baseline instead of entirely. And I can understand why they do it this way - players have actually rather little room for building their power in comparison to most other games, and there isn't that much of a difference in performance between somewhat optimized gear and minmaxed godrolls. It keeps the game's balance from becoming a runaway train like it is in Warframe, but it also means players don't have all that much to chase after without the seasonal content.
@@vflitz For sure. My main issue with the system comes down to having seasonal mods. I understand from a gameplay perspective, but it is very much a feeling of, "Alright, you hit 10/10 power, now each season, we will give you up to a 12/10 with the artifact, then set you back to 10/10 so you can do it again next season, with different guns and abilities." At this point I am only really playing the game for the lore/story and gameplay, because trying to reach the top is so meaningless.
I miss the days of hitting that max, and then having the bar truly raised with the next expansion. That brings in power creep and a whole new can of worms though, so there has to be a compromise I suppose.
@@ghostassassin1107 That's what I mean though, now everyone is using a single temporary mod as a crutch, and next season, there is a good chance itll vanish back into the ether. For me, knowing it is temporary ruins the point of it for me.
"Garrisons in Draenor", "The artifact weapon", "Heart of Azeroth", *All of these gave me sudden PTSD*
Now when it comes to Warframe, i suppose that's a bit of a double edged sword, isn't it? Now i havn't been playing as long as some folks have, but i have played long enough to see how "at odds" many of the systems are with each other. Kitguns, K-Drives, Zaws, Railjacks . . . *Necramechs* . All of that honestly creates a weird bloat to the game. And the fact that it's not connected in a "good" way to the rest just creates even more problems. Zaws and Kitguns are *stupidly* good examples of this. Both of them require materials that you can get/harvest in the open world areas, and some of those materials are not exactly *easy* to acquire. It's become only a little easier recently with the fact that there are Thumpers in the Plains of Eidolon, of which there needs to be something similar for the Orb Vallis, and even Deimos isn't AS egregious with requiring you to fish or mine your eyeballs out. You still probably need to fuckin' do those, but still. Even Railjack is an . . . interesting beast that kinda got stuck in the muck of "how the fuck do we get this to work???"
Getting your own spaceship, flying it around, and blasting the shit out of multiple things sounds awesome! And that's the point of the problem. It *sounds* awesome. But take a step back and look at the mountainous process of MAKING your own ship, let alone getting it geared to an "okay" point and the humongous matroshka doll that is the mods and all that and it gets rather problematic. And i can go on for AGES about the Mod system and how they're either "non relevant" or just *break the entire fuckin' game* . But setting all that aside, Railjack was originally supposed to be a way to "connect" the sort of "content islands". Which as we all know, didn't fuckin' work.
And i think that just goes into the sort of odd problem of Warframe. A lot of the well . . . *everything* is held back by the fact that a lot of it can either be "missed" or "ignored" by a majority of players. Like i love Archwing as much as the next guy but i can freely admit that there needs to be a better way to integrate that gameplay loop into the rest of the fuckin' game. And the problem is that i KNOW they can figure out how to fix these problems. It's just a problem of oversight.
*Nothin' but blissfully ignorant giraffes*
I agree that k-drives have absolutely no reason to exist other than "futuristic skating", because you'll have the archwing to use as transport eventually, so it negates the initial proposition of k-drives.
Now, I'm not very sure how zaw and kit guns work fully, but I thought they existed mostly for people to keep gaining mastery after they maybe cleared everything else. I dunno if the game has enough regular items for max mastery, but since they keep adding more, perhaps now that system is actually irrelevant, aside for maybe some fun or unusual builds.
Necramechs on the other hand I think are a good system because they allow a player to be powerful without having endgame gear, and are used like tanks. If you combine them with Wukong or umbra, they can be useful for certain events. I do agree they should receive more support, more mods and weapons and things like that, but I think the necramechs have their place
@@xxOnigiri99 Zaws and Kitguns are primarily for customized weapons that feel/do what you want, not what the game says is right, you can find equivalent weapons for each kind you can build, but the novelty of making your own makes it worth keeping imo. There are more than enough weapons & warframes to get to MR30, and they've added an additional system to compensate.
K-Drives were for fun and lel's, and should have stayed that way. Originally it was just gonna be a side thing you could do if you wanted, but with Yareli they've made it a system you HAVE to participate in which ruins the original idea: Space Ninja on a space skateboard is hilarious.
This is all my opinion but I didn't really find doing the Rising Tide quest to be a "mountainous" process and getting good MKIII RJ guns, hulls, etc. didn't seem very problematic since I just clicked "Join Any Squad" in Veil Proxima which helped get me good amounts of MKIII RJ parts and the respective resources needed to craft them. Granted, I did get my own RJ (which I happily called Bugframe Airlines) before RJ 3.0 so I guess that's an important factor to take into account.
Garrisons could be salvageable, if not as a player housing, at least some sort of base a player could return to. After moving from Draenor, it could be your own personal space, offering commodities of your choosing
@@ar3klis Garrisons damaged the game the moment they were added into the game and were a really bad feature in the first place.
My entire guild thought they made the game feel more like a single player game and not an mmo, trying to turn them into something else might not make them better either as there will be some who will complain why they cant go back to being able to farm mats in them still and do everything from them as they made things easier.
Though maybe they should have just stuck with garrisons and doubled down on them as they seem to want to cater to a more casual audience anyway....
Just to add on to this and play a little devil’s advocate. A lot of companies in the tech space particularly gaming have really high employee turnover rates. So there’s high demand for content but people at the company might not be the same that built the initial system, have entirely different ideas or are so short staffed that putting improvised things on top and fixing it later is the go to method to supply demand and keep stakeholders happy.
Essentially, these days you’d have to plan a game and about 10-15 of content in advance to be able to keep up the level of intricacy and synergy. Not to speak of how incredibly expensive it would be to put out fully realized and tested content compared to “most viable” content that’s fast, cheap and can be adjusted later without touching core mechanics if the player base doesn’t accept it.
I’d like to use Warframe as an example of why this is a bad excuse. The trend of Warframe updates is always the same, some new content is added with inevitably new resources to gather and the devs decide to make it so only that one new activity will have that resource. These activities have all too frequently prevented you from using your arsenal in them and the gimmick of the activity can rarely be used in wider play. It costs nothing to let people use the hoverboard in any mission type or any other gimmick they have introduced over the past decade and yet the core gameplay loop has not expanded to accommodate more than one of these gimmicks and only after an egregious amount of farming.
You made me realise something about the Heart of Azeroth (I quit WoW in 8.1, returned in 9.0 and then quit for good). There was no reason for it to exist. They could have kept the azerite armor but removed the heart and the only thing that would change would be that it would be less annoying. Like really, it would just cut down on the useless grind and that's it. But there is another thing that I recently realised about WoW. It's not a game, it's a checklist. Tones of systems designed only to extend the playtime without giving back anything to the game, chores you have to do not to fall behind that will be irrelevant as soon as the next patch comes. Even mythic+ (which I liked in Legion) is this way, there is no real reason for the keys to regress. It's only to extend the play time.
A buddy of mine referred to this as keeping players running on that hamster wheel.
I am still playing,but I couldnt agree more. I log in only to do my checklist in order to raid properly. I dont log in because "I want to play it for fun" for quite some time now. Yet I still hang on because of my guild.. but it just doesnt feel good anymore ;_;
WoW is all about milking its playerbase. Gotta keep em players chasing "something" so that we can milk more $$$ right? Give em the carrot on the stick.. and let them chase it.
I hate what WoW has become in terms of game mechanics and story. The game's aesthetics and music are incredible and the questlines, dungeons, and raids are always fun to do, yet to even appreciate that stuff you gotta slog through all of the bullshit that exists because Blizzard just doesn't give a shit about making meaningful gameplay loops and systems to begin with. The fact that they even cut down on the grind by making all of the previous xpacs optional to go through is shocking as is. If only End Game wasn't such a mess to deal with.
Part of the problem was there was no reason to throw out the Legendary weapon system of Legion. The Legendary weapon actually fixed one of the core issues in WoW of your primary weapon being too important for stats and damage for melee. Plus with its item level determined by the enhancement slots the system could have indefinitely scaled up and merely made each new expansion unlocking a new set of transmogs (and if they made legion the primary level zones acquisition problem solved) for your legendary weapon and maybe 1-2 new signature abilities with some expansion enhancements. (such as say a skill that made you deal more damage or apply a debuff to azerite elementals)
I hope Bungie devs are watching this. Seasonal Activities? Seasonal Vendor Ranks? Seasonal Artifacts?
Seasonal Deletion Of Content People Paid For Only To Sell More Content That Will Also Be Deleted?
Josh talking about Runescape - "The combat system is based-" I KNEW IT
Parasitic features are, in some ways the lesser evil. Especially in long term games like MMOs. The other options are to build these systems as integral which will take so much time that when the new feature or expansion is released, no one is left to play it. Or it represents such a drastic shift in core loops that a large portion of the playerbase will not take to it well. And unlike these parasitic designs, these integrated ones can't be ignored.
Add to that the complication of monetization, and you have to stratle the line between community segregation or expansion invalidation.
Other issue is that full integration means fiddling with core game systems that generally are barely functioning.
This. This video is a good intro to the idea but it's sadly lacking the full perspective. If you have a constantly updating game, parasiticism is a feature, not bug, because if you keep on expanding the integral systems, eventually the learning curve will be too high. New players will have to learn every aspect of an interwoven system before getting the hang of the true game experience. Parasitic systems are basically a way to modularize game-design. Thus you should be looking at it as "is this specific solution an appropriate trade-off?" rather than "avoid this at all costs like the plague".
@@lekhakaananta5864 Very much this. There are plenty of times where it's just another way to milk money without actually contributing anything worthwhile, just like dlcs selling what should have been base content, but there are appropriate uses.
Yeah, I can name some parasitic design elements that I enjoy from WoW. The problem (I think) is when it is just wildly egregious, like the Heart of Azeroth, and takes over the game for a while. Then the whole game feels like a futile exercise in "build it up only to tear it down", build it up, tear it down. Your effort feels (and is) meaningless, and it's _easy to recognize it as meaningless._
9:25
@@lekhakaananta5864 I humbly disagree. A new expansion doesn’t need a fundamentally and integrally change the mechanics or gameplay loop, it just needs to interact with it in a meaningful way. Expanding the gameplay can mean more than adding core mechanics that players have to keep track of. Take Minecraft, for example. When they added shulker boxes, it wasn’t a completely new system, but rather an expansion of the inventory system. It only interacted with one system of the game, but did so in a way that meaningfully changed the gameplay. Even when they add a new mechanic, like enchanting, it’s not a one and done deal. Over time they kept expanding on it with accompanying mechanics and added integration with other systems.
Besides, making sure mechanics are clear and readable to new players is part of a game designer’s job as well. Choosing when and how to show players new mechanics that integrate into the game’s systems can ensure that players aren’t flooded with information, and this is the case for any game
I was so blown away by Path of Exile when the Betrayal syndicate came around and completely overhauled the mentor (I think that’s what it’s called, with Niko and the lot) replacing all of the old mentors and making them a part of this new enemy faction, it tied together the past few league mechanics into the endgame, while contextualizing the removal of the old mentor system, and using that contextualization to create a brand new system.
"Remember the Heart of Azeroth?" *eye twitches* Don't remind me.
Edit: You literally just described the "borrowed power" conversation that's been going on in the community for years.
Yeah, parasitic design is a better way to call it so the idiots who still defend Blizzard systems understand
Yeah, it just further cements how I have felt about Blizzard the past few years now. Basically, they keep doing things that cause talent to leave the studio (with the recent lawsuit just accelerating it) and leaving overworked underpaid abused devs to take their place, leading to a massive drop in quality, as evident by their output in recent years.
Convenants, Hearth of azeroth, legendaries, wod ring, Class halls, mop cloak. All goes into this definition. Funny enough all of that could be in the game in a more productive way lol. WoD garrison is still the only place i use because of the AH i have there.
@@rickroll9705 I will miss cata if not for this reason alone we still had real legendary gear and it did not really mess up the game.
Yeah I had never heard the term "parasitic design" before. After he used the "borrowed power" systems from Wow as examples of "parasitic design" I then understood the meaning.
Warframe is an amazing game to analyse, there's just so much done right and so much done wrong, pretty sure every game design student should go through the game's history.
8 years in and you think others would learn right! Anthem, Avengers, Godfall, Planetside the list goes on.
@@BuzzaB77 Planetside has had such a sad and fucked history, it was even on life support with like two or three devs for a while, now they're just trying to patch up the Frankenstein Monster they were left. I think PS3 needs to start getting into the prototype phase now so that they can actually transition sooner rather than later.
@@MeatyZeeg PS3 is never going to happen. I forget the company that bought SoE, (Bluehole maybe?) is never going to do anything with it. They are just milking the husk they got for cheap.
A shame, I think right now is the perfect time for an MMOFPS to shine if done right. Technology can kinda handle the concept now without the dire compromises both PS and PS2 had to do to just function.
@@Keldiur EG7 bought them but maybe a year or more down the line if PS2 proves their players interest then maybe we might see it. One can only hope.
I like to describe Warframe as "unconventional" to gamers who don't know it. Even when game mechanics/systems are sticking to convention, there are usually tantalizing signs that the designers actively gave thought to the "why" of those particular traditions.
But some of my favourite experiences in Warframe seem to be results of lucky accidents. Some outside constraint occasionally has forced Digital Extremes' hand, and then, apparently, they got unusually creative working around those constraints and/or weaving them into the game.
For example, some of today's core movement mechanics started out as "clever use of game mechanics" discovered by resourceful players. Instead of viewing those as exploits and disabling them, Digital Extremes sat down and asked themselves: why are players liking this thing so much? They were open to the possibility that it was a genuine improvement of player experience ... and it was, so it became standard.
There are a precious few extremely unconventional things in Warframe that no sane game designer would ever consider for even only a heartbeat. You will know them when you encounter them. Eventually. Too soon and too late. You will understand what I mean.
This is one of the biggest things that has seen my interest in WoW fade. WoW constantly adds new systems, and then scraps them after one expansion, only to add even more. In Legion, we had Artifact Weapons, Legion Legendaries, then we had the Netherlight Crucible. In BfA, we had the Heart of Azeroth, Azerite Armor, and then we had Azerite Essences, and then Corrupted Gear. In Shadowlands, we have Covenants with Covenant Abilities, Soulbinds with Conduits and Conduit Energy, and Shadowlands Legendaries. These will almost all certainly be retired in the next expansion.
You also get new systems that seem to ONLY exist for an expansion, like the Netherlight Crucible, Corruptions, and Domination sockets/gems. It's baffling.
Can i throw in rep specific stuff for one area like the Klaxi stuff? Just stuff that would work in that area and ONLY while you were out and about. No like benefit in Heart of Fear or something....
This mentality of adding random things till something works is why I can't get into many mainstream mmo's, it's straight up not good game design.
I'm in 100% agreement that the game relies way too heavily on borrowed power. However, I also think having something unique per expansion is really cool. I actually really liked corruption from a thematic standpoint (obtaining corruption was another story ... awful), but it made sense in the context of the story and didn't make sense to keep it when it was over. Not only this, but remember, good ole staples like tier sets are also borrowed power. We've had them since Classic, and every tier in every expansion we happily discard them for the next tier's more powerful updates.
So the idea of borrowed power isn't a flawed one. They just have to stop designing all forms of power progression around it and they also need to stop being so poorly designed. I mean, Azerite Gear in BFA, conduits in SL have to be some of the worst designed borrowed power systems you can think of. But legion artifacts on the other hand, I actually really liked those. They added a lot of fun to the game play, not just with fun abilities, but cosmetics as well. And loosing them at the end of the expansion felt bad. Where as opposed to the end of Shadowlands, I can't wait to get rid of coventants/conduits. Uhh, so bad.
So hopefully, blizzard can get their heads on straight. It would be nice to see some of the current core game mechanics added to, and it would be nice if there are any borrowed powers systems, they don't completely define our classes or the core game play loop.
Fingers crossed that we can retire WoW alltogether.
One problem with synergistic systems is that they tend to increase complexity. Many people cannot handle high levels of complexity. Those people become frustrated as they start to fall behind other players as complexity increases. Of course, there are other players that need complexity to not become bored. Therefore, there is a bit of a balancing act.
I came expecting a discussion of microtransactions and found something much more interesting.
Also this explains alot of how Destiny 2's been updated over the years.
Applies to Warframe as well.
For warframe, the whole area on Cetus (first open world) was made to unlock Tenno abilities (josh didn't get there in main story). So cetus is 100% worthless until you complete almost all the main story, yet they let you go there and feel the confusion
indeed. they did a lot for new players but a bit more progress gating would be good. but i can see their problem here. if they gate it new players (like josh) will assume there is not much lore, worlds, systems etc. if they frontload all the story stuff without the gates within the story you wont have the whole journey feeling and most likely play the whole story in one big chunk leaving you with all the grindy bits without story breaks. i think the best way would be (which they seem to want to do) is to add more relevant story quests and then maybe make it so new players can experience the base systems quicker
Cetus should be locked until you get the point in the story where you actually need it IMO, it doesn't really make sense otherwise, the early game also needs to be a lot more on rails with the story, there are certain bitter warframe veterans content creators who claim the problem with the game is that DE panders to new players too much and that DE need to pander to old players, but the truth is the opposite. DE does nothing but put in new systems to pander to veterans and nothing to improve the new play exerence at all. playing warframe in 2021 as a new player is like a 3rd grader sitting in on a quantum physics lecture
I know right. why didin't they just gate all the open worlds off until you get your archwing? that would make total sense to me. WHen they did the new cutscene for deamos with you flying in i thought they might change it but nah. shame. what a mess of a sturcture that game has.
It's not a Cetus only problem. Same happens to Orb Vallis and Railjack, all those braindead grind for nothing relevant outside of those areas.
I really love these analytical videos about ingame systems / design / UI. Keep them coming, never get boring. And if you need another "worst MMO", play Crowfall ;) I can give you a 10 day key to test it out for free, if needed.
Ooooooh man i would love to see him play Crowfall. Pls josh
Thank you, Josh
I was going to introduce a parasitic homebrew mechanic into my D&D game.
Now i know i have to tweak it a bit so it has a nice synergy with the rest of the game's mechanics.
I just discovered your channel and wow! As someone who develops video games AND plays them this is the perfect channel. I am blown away by the constructive criticism you apply in your content. It is so refreshing to see un-biased honest opinions and instead of saying a game "sucks", being able to point out what even the worst games do WELL, and how they could've hit the mark better on other mechanics. It's such a good combo of having a "game designer" hat on while you review, while also keeping the player in mind and ensuring the mechanics are enjoyable. It's difficult finding reviewers that are able to do both. Keep up the awesome work, the effort you put into these videos is hugely appreciated and very informative!
Im so glad you congratulated callum on his charity stream! and certainly not the Three hundred and thirty eight million, two hundred and thirty eight thousand, five hundred and ninety three coins he lost in a shameful defeat dueling you. Keep up the positive vibes!
That mug is a special attack right at callums heart
Everything about parasitic design perfectly describes Destiny2 seasons. and I'm a huge Destiny fan
I feel like dead-end design would be a clearer name, but good explanation of an interesting concept.
To the World of Warcraft stuff, as a hardcore player, I definitely agree that the systems are garbage. They're super overcomplicated for no reason. But I don't think it's as black and white as "oh blizzard is just lazy, good system hard 2 make"
The thing you gotta remember is that each expansion is essentially a reset. If the cloak from pandaria, garrison from WoD, artifact weapons from Legion, and heart of azeroth and cloak from BFA were all relevant in the latest expansion... I want you to just think about that. That would insinuate that each expansion requires players to play the last, which is just silly. That isn't to defend these borrowed powers, these parasitic systems. They're bad and I'd argue that they're killing the game. It's so hard for new players to break ground in the game because the systems are way too overcomplicated. I'm just saying, I see why they exist, even if I don't like it. And I think it will take a fresh set of developers and some trust from upper management to break the mold.
I agree, the feature creep would be insane. I don't even think parasittic design and borrowed power is all that bad in WoW's case. Artifact weapons/heart of azeroth are fancy gear pieces that give you new abilities. I loved them, especially artifact weapons.
And I doubt they scare away new players, cos I started playing in Legion. For me, the most overwhelming "new" max lvl feature was raids 😅
"Do you remember the Heart of Azeroth?"
Well thanks for waking up my "CHAMPYUN, AZEEROTH HAS WUUNDS DAT NEED EELIN" PTSD. That system was sooo bad.
Nevermind me, i was just passing by looking for that wow related comment 😂
"AZ'ROTH CRIES OOT IN PEHN" will echo in my nightmares
Not only parasitic design, but also creeping features, and the three of them were unbalance, broken and hard to grind, f*** the azerite armor, screw the escences, and especially go to the s***y hole were you came from corruption system
I must say, I've felt there was something off about Warframe for ages now, a lot of us have. But I feel since Josh made these reviews and especially this video, I'm beginning to understand why some things about it felt so off. I also think that's why I like one of the newer systems they added, because it does take, but it also gives back. It's more like it's an improvement of the way the game plays, which is a thing that I already liked, it works well with the modding system and makes for some fun builds, but I do feel they could stand to inter-connect some of the systems more and make them more valid, that bridge could be what makes a terrible, obsolete mechanic into a fun mechanic.
Also, my first thought when it comes to this was that there's this really old game mode in Warframe that is one one node, with 1 purpose, to get a single warframe and you can tell it's been forgotten. The newest warframe Yareli uses a k-drive (Hover board) which was added much later, she was added very recently, and K-drives are kinda janky as it is. In this game mode you constantly lose armour unless you're in a safety bubble, however, because a k-drive is counted as it's own entity, when you're on Yareli's k-drive, even if you are in the safety bubble, you lose armour. A small oversite but a tell tale sign that the game mode has been forgotten, they relied on it registering what is and isn't a warframe in the bubble for stopping you losing armour but they didn't think that they'd have to make it work for the k-drive too.
Anyway, that's enough of my micro QA on warframe's newest frame, great video as always!
This is what happens when you kitbash 2 abandoned features together. Infested salvage canister mechanic is unfortunately way better than existing mechanics for excavation or mobile defense and nobody realized it or did anything to improve the old game modes that break all the time due to existence of one thing making or breaking the whole mode.
This perfectly explains Guild Wars 2 Living World seasons.
8:55 I understand the point you're trying to make here, but it did not affect combat a *slight* bit - it affected combat a great deal. It was absolutely huge, especially after the 7.2 patch. If you didn't have it to a certain level, you couldn't get invites to groups for high-level dungeons, raids, or rated pvp. It was made absolutely essential by the sheer and massive power it had.
While warframe suffers from Parasitic Design a lot they recently started to interconnect some systems to better work with themselves.
Back in 2019 you basically played Railjack missions to improve railjack and get railjack resources. Remove railjack and nothing happens.
With time they added other types of Railjack missions, where you need to play on foot, making your gear actually matter (other than Railjack armaments), vowen in Relic farming from normal missions into Railjack missions and added the finale of Liches/Sisters bossfight within Railjack missions.
There is still a lot of work to connect other system islands of warframe i feel like they know what their problem is and they actually take some steps to fight it. I just wonder if they'll keep fighting it instead of perpetuating their previous mistakes. Time will tell.
i think they will keep fighting it. they adressed the issues multiple times and said that they arent happy with the content island situation. thing is as a very very fair free to play game they HAVE to add new things regularly or they can shut down. so ye i can see why correcting missteps takes more time as they got to split their dev time
I just wish they didn't kill the solo levelling from old railjack in the process, it was the only option i had to level up my amps, companions and a bunch of useless gear
Notice how, after ignoring Railjack, they're only doing this NOW, YEARS later.
I hope they connect the operator system because its 100% useless.
This creates a new problem
Many systems in warframe are underdeveloped or abandoned because of that, no one wants to play them
For example: throw archwing into a piece of content and watch the people groan
11:40 So I'm nitpicking here, re: Dungeoneering, but resource dungeons came out like three months after initial release, and were always part of the plan as it was described to us if I'm remembering correctly. And I think it's also worth pointing out that the skill itself launched with rewards that fed back into the main game in a major way; the Bonecrusher and Charming Imp were considered major QoL improvements, even before the addition of items like the split dragontooth necklace which, coupled with them, now practically define the Slayer meta.
And like. There's also the fact that Dungeoneering training was a decent, if inefficient, way to train skills if you didn't want to just do the same repetitive task over and over. And the Chaotic Weapons are still a pretty consistently important part of the gearing process, although they're no longer nearly as powerful (comparatively) as they used to be. I don't think the description of Dungeoneering as parasitic was ever warranted; it always fed back into the core gameplay loop in a major way. I don't want to speculate on the motives of its critics in general, because I only argued with a few dozen of them, but I got the very distinct sense at the time that many of them were just irritated at the more active style of gameplay, and were claiming that it "should have been a minigame" because they didn't want to interact with it at all.
My first experience with that concept was realizing the player housing system in World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor was a parasitic design implementation and always had been before it launched. It may not have turned out the way it did if the goal was to incorporate it into the core gameplay. Didn't know at the time that they were planning on every expansion having its own systems that disregard the previous ones.
With me I was thinking about those when I first started hearing about upcoming artifacts in Legion...I was like who the F cares about the literal Ashbringer when they're just gonna steal it from us at the end of the exp.....
It was around mid TOS when I heard about the upcoming theft of all artifacts when some stupid ingame pos made me unsub and never play after that month.
Although was/still on classic every so often I refuse to pay blizz for more parasitic systems and less fun content.
This is key to my enjoyment of ff14.
They DO have parasitic design, but they are content islands (Bozja, Eureka) and they are never, ever, main expansion content. They are a side course with cosmetic rewards and part of the relic grind quest, which ARE a big power boost, but it is also optional? I just finished my grind this expansion and got a small but significant dps boost. Wouldn't shave a single minute for any of my raid clears though, better position would be way better.
I am getting more raids, more dungeons, more story, and they all work with the core systems.
Like all things in life, moderation is key.
They also offer a lot of lore value, too. A lot of optional content have amazing storylines with them so it doesn't happen in a vacuum
Even the relic weapon grind is optional unless you want the absolute best possible weapon
You have to go throw a lot of effort to get your relic weapon better than what you can just buy at a marketboard
Dont forget that even after EW comes out something like Bozja is still going to be the fastest way to level. from 71-80
Bozja isn’t really that parasitic as the relic weapon encourages engagement with legacy content,
Bozja provides an alternate EXP source like PotD,
it’s treated as a silo to intentionally keep the grind away from the core game systems,
And the major primary rewards are a side story and 3 dungeons that help develop elements from stormblood and endwalker.
You're really getting some mileage out of the Warframe footage lol
if you notice, he's going through the once awake quest. he's actually playing the game which is nice
How does this channel have under 500k subs at this point? He always offers actual information, he doesn't feed into hype or hate, and he's got a great speaking voice.
I never subscribe to anyone. Likes/Comments sure but never sub.
Your video has a very valid point: the sticker parasitic design is great feedback from players how they feel about in most cases an addition or update of life game.
Where the term is out of depth is actual game design used to create games. The name parasitic suggests something negative, but the reality of maintaining a game for years simply means, that you need to add also dead end systems, which are just modules on top existing experience. It's impossible to constantly add systems and content with synergy. The players need novelty and it's always about compromise between time and resources, complexity, current game ecosystem and business goals of the game.
It would've been neatospagheeto if Josh had used "symbiotic" rather than "synergistic" to contrast with "parasitic"
Parasites are symbiotic. What people refer to as Symbiosis is called Mutualism.
@@tkgwildfire5339 You actually got me to look it up, and you are correct in the biological canon, but when referring to things outside of biology symbiosis always carries the connotation of mutual benefit, if not outright interdependence.
@@nuclearsynapse5319 Synergy is the correct term. Not only has it been a tech buzzword since at least the early nineties, but it implies a feedback loop to produce maximum satisfaction for both parties-which is considerably greater than a mere mutual benefit.
Plus, I don't think you've managed to separate parasitism from symbiosis at all simply by bringing it out of biology. Symbiosis is the overall concept of which parasites are a part of. Mutualism isn't a mutually beneficial parasite, it's a mutually beneficial symbiosis. For example; you wouldn't label the birds that clean crocodile teeth a parasite, but it is a symbiotic relationship. A parasite is the harmful member of a parasitic symbiosis; like those crustaceans that replace a fish's tongue (don't look it up, it's nightmare fuel). In fact, I don't think I've ever come across an example of symbiosis being used outside of a biological context, let alone it ONLY meaning mutually beneficial.
Maybe in the context of business... but even then I wouldn't say both parties are actually receiving mutual benefit like you're assuming. More often than not it's one party getting 99% of the benefit, while the other party gets 1% benefit plus 50% more annoyances. In fact, the only times I've seen it used that way in business was when one party was actively trying to screw over the majority of the other party and convince them it was a good idea (like company take overs, or restructuring firms that only ended in MASSIVE layoffs for employees that needed those jobs and jobs being eliminated that ultimately were needed by the company so it ends up having to fold-YAY, short term profits! Am I right?). That scenario is very much like a parasitic relationship. I mean a tapeworm will help you lose weight... it might kill you too, but that could be worth the risk, right?
Perhaps you could give an example of a symbiotic, genuinely mutually beneficial (without risking a parasitic nature evolving from it) relationship outside of biology to illustrate your point.
A thing I appreciate about Oldschool Runescape is they go far out of their way to try and not add parasitic things. A lot of the new items doesnt totally replace others and is a best at a niche thing or requires another boss drop to combine to make it so that it doesnt totally replace the old.
I guess most of that appreciation goes to the community since the content added into the game is voted on by the community.
So for the warframe players that didn't get what he was referring to, the many islands DE has created are Parasitic design.
And a whole lot of other garbage, and railjack.
All mission variants for factions technically also fall into that category.
Most content for the last 8 years falls into that category.
No. Resources unique to them are. Stuff that removes or doesnt use the core gameloop (AW, railjack, etc) and not connecting it are (railjacks initial plan of being able to hop planets and missions and send assistance to people in matchmaking for example would turn it into a actual core instead of parasitic tho useless system it currently is).
It was hilarious to see that old thread in the forums Hayes showed for a couple seconds in which OP was saying there's no power creep and giving as an example Soma and Marelok. Both of which got power crept to hell and back couple years later by the AOE fiesta we've had since. Hell, they even got power crept within their own weapon classes up until recently: Tiberon Prime, Kuva Hind, Kuva Karak, Tenora Prime, Arca Scisco, Pandero Prime, Kuva Seer, Tenet Spirex, Zymos. Then Soma got Hata-Satya and that mod alone made it climb to the top of its weapon class yet again!
"Warframe has had minimal problems with this". Suuuure 🙄🤣
For reference: Soma and Marelok were so good at the time that most didn't bother using other weapons. That itself was power creep. Same applied to Boltor and Acrid way back when. OP's explanation on what Power creep is was completely off.
@@HejC8xmRICWgUCj1dhPvhTFX IIRC the same happened with the Tonkor Grenade launcher. I remember playing waaay back when and the Tonkor with the right mods basically decimated everything. Then it got nerfed into the ground and I think a new grenade launcher took its place with required a different set of mods to make work. This was a long time ago however.
I've seen this in Destiny 2 as well up until the time I stopped playing. A lot of gimmicky mods and items you have to charge and use that were only useful for that Season. Weapon sunsetting in general also seems really counterintuitive to the fact gun stats were randomly generated, so you had to grind so much just to get the right perks for them, only for them to be irrelevant down the line.
That mug twist was *_priceless_*
It would be amazing if developers would realize that stepping back to a previous patch isn't a horrible, destructive decision. If the update is hated, undo the update. Don't stack more updates and patches on bad content.
FACTS
Like when you paint and do a slight mistake. Then try to fix it by adding more. And it just gets worse and worse until you want to throw the whole thing in the trash.
Because it's not possible or reasonable. An update is more than just what the people don't like about the update. There are core stuff modified under the hood that they don't want to lose or rebuild, which may represent like 70% of an update. The stuff you see as a gamer is just the tip of the iceberg.
@@OneSek1 so changelogs are inaccurate? And why is it impossible to undo a change? Not saying it's easy, no update is, but it is possible to remove what people don't like and keep what works.
@@Jeagan2002 If you're talking about changelogs for people that play the game, on a technical stand point, obviously not. Even 'technical' changelogs won't always tell you the whole story.
Is it impossible to undo a change ? It depend what it is :
- a whole expansion ? yes, but then you'll have people asking for a refund
- a whole update ? possible and easy but you lose also all the bug fix, potential core system change made under the hood, etc => not reasonable
- a core feature in an recent update ? need a lot of time and effort that won't go into your next planned feature => better try to tweak it or make it bearable until you have the time to replace it/ remove it in the next big update/expansion
- a side feature ? depend how much this feature is linked to you core system (both technical and gameplay) => doable but depend how much this side feature is problematic to the experience. If players can ignore it, should you spend time removing it "now", etc many questions are to be asked to take the final decision.
- a small feature ? usually they do remove or change them if it's problematic
- a bugfix causing more problem than it solve ? hotfixed in the week usually
Technically speaking, everything is possible, with money and time, but you may not have them, specially time, that's where it may become "impossible".
Community asking change are features, those features are given priorities. The people that survey the community estimate how much it matter to them (the community), then a myriad of other factors comes in :
- how much this feature is needed for the integrity of the studio (stuff about quality standard, security, etc)
- how much is it critical for the players (annoying, blocking, upsetting, bearable, etc)
- it is just a new feature
Then they look at the cost, not money wise, but at a complexity level first, complexity will determine the time and thus money it will take to bring this change. Complexity is both about the technical part the functional part (read gameplay/story/etc). The functional part for example is : if we remove this feature, how many system are impacted in the gameplay, that will also need to be tweaked/updated again ? On the technical part, you can have things that you really want to fix/change (think security issue, like cheater, botter, etc) but it's extremely hard to find a solution that won't do more harms than it helps, or it maybe just ask for huge core system rebuild.
Finally, they take a decision considering those 2 factors priority/cost, and schedule it or take action for future changes to resolve the issue. As you can guess, there are a lot of items/feature that are already scheduled, so features/items with middle to low priority and high cost will be delayed. In your schedule, you also have different types of feature : bugfix, new feature, remake, system core update, security stuff, etc.
That's why you can see them remove something that became a problem just a week ago but not change something that have been asked for years.
Anyway, I went on en essay, hope it helps to understand the complexity behind decision making in development.
I've been gaming for almost 40 years and have never heard this term.
Because it's just stupid bullcrap that scumbags made up that doesn't apply to video games at all.
How did I know, the title "Parasitic Design" was going to prominently feature WoW?
Oh, because I played the game and felt it first hand.
Turtle wow "a vanilla+ private server" is a great example of why killing all content that came before by making expansions to wow was a mistake.
Turtle wow is basically vanilla wow but with A LOT of added content. Survival skills like camping, gardening,player housing, couple new races,content that blizzard planned but cut, more world bosses, new reputation vendors, a permadeath challenge mode with lots of cool rewards for hitting 60, new areas, hundreds of new quests,about 1300 new items, ability to become a diplomat and play with members of both factions,new raids are on the way and all sorts of stuff like that without increasing the level cap and therefore keeping all content relevant.
There is an important point missing. Parasitic Designs can be useful for developers to see player's reaction to such a system. They can use them to get a feel what players think about it and then integrate it fully if it's received well. If they already implement it into the game completely and it flops, it will be hard to take it out again and you will loose players. The problem is usually taking the time to actually integrate these systems fully, because that would take time that you could fill with other ideas to keep people interested. This is a point where a good management is actually needed. One that identifies what's working and what should be worked on even if it takes time.
When you mentioned parasitic design "existing in a vacuum" I instantly thought of Plains of Eidolon in Warframe. People could argue that you can acquire arcanes from there and that there is some weird story content there but I personally feel that it adds little to nothing to Warframe. Does it look great? Absolutely. Does it feel great to play? Nah. The fun in Warframe is making ridiculous builds that work well with the mods and the kit of your warframe and exploding everything on your path.
The story bits we get every now and then with quests and Warframe releases are absolutely brilliant, tho.
I thought of that instantly too lmao. The argument for arcanes being acquired from tridolons isn’t even that solid, because if poe + arcanes were just removed, would that affect the main game THAT much?
PoE Fortuna Deimos
Railjack
Kuva liches
Sisters of Parvos
All are parasites to the game yet they are good the problem is that they are islands of content that once done u never return to them
PoE/Fortuna/Deimos/Railjack feels like something we could just remove right now with little impact, but it helps with making future quests and you get rewards that work outside of it. As seen in the future story preview, open world adds flexibility when adding new content and old systems will be expanded sooner or later.
The plains didn't seem like an extraneous system - more a new way to experience the same gameplay.
You have all the starchart, with people to kill and loot to collect, then you have an open landscape - with people to kill and loot to collect. Same gameplay, different location - and it lets you flex different builds and items that you don't usually when running through missions everywhere else. ...but then you get to all the open-world specific systems which ARE parasitic - I had fun with fishing, but how does that translate to the star chart? Mining? Hunting on Orb Valis? Sure, some things are being mixed between the open worlds, but half of the game still doesn't care that you have a nice K-Drive.
So while the "open worlds" aren't necessarily parasitic in concept, everything done with them is either parasitic (new mechanics only relevant here) or feature creep. (new resources that can only be obtained in a certain way)
At least, that's my view of things.
@@pablohoney2971 I'd disagree with the current iteration of railjack and some of the open worlds.
Old Railjack had the best way to solo-level most gear and companions, as the xp earned by the ship was shared. New railjack is a "all arround" farm, that is decent for everything yet excels at none.
Fortuna T4 bounties are the only way to farm Fieldron/Mutagen Mass/Detonite injectors without any timer restrictions, Deimos T5 bounties have a pretty high endo payoff with the least amount of risk and investment of the other endo farms. PoE deserves to be on the list tho ... It has uses but nothing unique.
You want parasitic design? Add K-drives in it.
Throughout watching this video my mind was just going "This is basically Railjack" every time. They literally could take out Railjack from Warframe and nothing would change.
Imagine if you could use your railjack in arcewing missions. I thought that was what it was gonna be before it came out
@@dwarvernbard9782 That might actually make archwing better as well
Actually, first thing my mind ran on was Necramechs. Still no reason to build one. And yes, I do understand Orphix Venom is a thing, but it's a dead gametype atm because it's impossibly difficult even with a group (a group thats hard to find because no one wants to touch that gametype).
@@dwarvernbard9782 that was the plan. Remove the Archwing Nodes and replace them with a slice of Railjack.
The most famous game i know that adopts this system is Destiny 2, while the complete opposite is Guild Wars 2, yet everyone sleeps on it.
And here we are with the lead dev of Destiny 2 taking over blizz...and people wonder why M+ / Vault are a thing.
Its why i uninstalled d2 lol
Funnily enough I was just thinking how many times Anet has been guilty of creating parasitic systems in GW2 given how often they release features just to abandon them such as dungeons, gliders, raids, and potentially soon fractals in their pursuit of mounts of strikes.
Rather than "Parasite Design", I would call Destiny 2 design philosophy as "Cannibal Design": it keeps cannibalizing itself by removing original content in the game, and it sells it back to you as "brand new" (aka sunsetting, DCV, re-using same exact gun models/armor models over and over, reskin of old activities), which only serves to pad out content droughts, just because they cannot keep up their own enstablished seasonal cadence and make enough "brand new" content to keep you engaged with the game, each season.
What this tries to achieve is that developers have some breathing room to make as few new content, but adding so much old stuff (think like reprised guns from D1 or sunsetted guns from D2) and called it new, so you (as a player) won't complain for the lack of new content (spoiler: content drought is still very much a problem), but it lowers the quality of the game as a result.
This is pretty much what I feel about Destiny 2 as of right now, and yes there are some elements in Destiny 2 that could be classed as "parasite design", but I feel like Destiny 2 always struggled to find an identity within gaming, hence so many stupid decisions have been made as a result.
Because it just isn't that great of a game. At least when I played it for the few months after it released. Their expectation for "endgame" content is that you would basically level up different playstyles (their idea of horizontal progression) and chase different armor sets that were functionally no better than the ones you already had, they just looked different. So unless you were super into world PVP it became very stagnant at end game.
Now, I'm not sure how much has changed in later expansions of whatever, but for a more traditional MMO player who is used to vertical progression mechanics, the game falls pretty flat pretty quick.
Discussing parasitic design while fighting the infestation in Warframe.. well done sir.
Yeah Steve, the former creative lead on Warframe, definitely is a "hey wouldn't that be cool?" guy
I really hope Josh keeps playing warframe, although I understand its problems very clearly. I just want his reaction on the storyline, where ninjas in space is no longer ninjas in space but something more.
Before watching: “Hm, what’s Parasitic Design? And why is a WoW character in the thumbnail?”
After watching: “Oh, I see! And oh… I see.”
What about the mastery system from GuildWars2 living Storys? They feel like you just need them for the maps you get with the actual update. Next Update there are new masterys and the old ones dont care.
But there are some masterys you really need: gliding, mounts
That's why I stopped playing GW2. ☹
@@Shauma_llama Same here, I've been tempted to come back to GW2 but then I remember masteries and just get frustrated. I appreciated their dedication to not raising the level cap, but I don't think masteries were exactly the way to go, at least not in the ways they integrate them (or don't integrate them, as it were).
@@Jovian12 raising the levelcap and powercreep is not the way guildwaes works. Thats why i prefer this over other games.
On the other hand the masteries are "okay", at least from the addons. I dont like the masterys from living storys. But either i dobt have a better idea for implementing
First video I've seen of this RUclipsr. Immediately bombarded with a monologue about liking games in an uncomfortable amount of detail while also staring straight at the camera and holding a mug of presumably one's own face.
Noticed I've been binging your videos the last couple days, so have my sub!
So, diadem in FFXIV.
That's a great mug, and he's totally not gloating.
The Diadem (and the rest of the Firmament) is still a leveling zone that's almost as relevant as it has always been. I started playing in like 5.3 after Ishgard restoration was officially completed and I still had good reason to go there. There's substantial xp to be had, and there are mounts, dyes, outfits, and miscellaneous collectables there to collect. I actually still go back to the Firmament to level my remaining crafters and pick up some rewards.
Relics.
While the Eureka and Bozja storylines have merit on their own, you could say the whole "grind for relics" part is parasitic.
(even more so for ARR and HW relics)
I was just leaving a comment about that. Eureka is weird because you could say it's dead end content that's not endgame relevant like Dungeoneering was (I played RS2 when that launched), but it's similarly arguable that both are attractions in theme park MMOs and justify their existence for the sake of playing them. I liked Dungeoneering because I viewed it as an alternate endgame activity like all the PVP stuff. It's a thing to do because you like it; not to get things to use elsewhere.
@@diersteinjulien6773 The relic is an issue in and of itself. It can be considered a core of Final Fantasy more than XIV specifically, but the game system makes the relic a shiny stick whose major purpose is glamour. Debatably BiS for raids for people that don't go for early kills, as they basically function as catch up gear (and can be really good in that role, especially if you can meld them five times and they get good stats on top of that).
I should have specified 3.1 Diadem, cause that's the only one I set foot in. If memory serves (and I could be extremely wrong, it's been years), it was basically a map with fates and some gathering points, with enemies occasionally popping on a poor gatherer and one shotting them, since the gathering nodes were absurdly close to monster spawn locations.
It was made relevant by a mount or two, maybe a minion, and the gathered items being relatively important. Without those, a lot of people would have happily ignored its existance, and most did just that. It was just running from a fate to another fate, much like original eureka, minus the fancy lore. After a couple days of having fun with the new fates and enemies, it got old really fast, and there was really nothing holding you there.
At the very least, this is what I remember of that.
Warframe is such a good example of that. Great video, as always.
I’m not sure if you have played Destiny 2, but this entire video explains the seasonal model of Destiny 2. I’d love to see you do it for worst mmo ever since it is along the same lines as Warframe.
I stay away from any sort of media that can be simplified with a “it gets good after *insert insane number of hours here* “ and this is why
That mug takes bragging to a new height, I love it :D.
Warframe has so many parasitic systems. The whole junction system was added YEARS after the fact. Suddenly, instead of just clearing a path of levels, including some required boss and story levels, and then being able to move on to the next planet, you suddenly had these roadblocks that prevented you from progressing until you fulfilled certain requirements, such as crafting things, finding x amount of lore pieces, killing x number of certain enemies. And all those started at 0 for me, even if I'd killed thousands of them before. Finding lore was a pain, because people like to rush through levels, and the lore doesn't spawn in the same place every time. You just kinda have to get lucky. Some of the required things I had to craft were things I'd already made, but had to remake just for the junctions.
I left the game and took a break before they were added. I had some story quests that I was gonna do, as well as some other bounties (I forget what they're called, but things like the Loki mission). But suddenly, while I had some levels on the planets unlocked, I had to go back and clear junctions to make any new progress. It was terrible, did nothing to augment the gameplay, and only served to waste my time. I was barred from enjoying the story at my own pace by dumb requirements.
The game is a lot of fun, but I haven't played since.
After playing it for over 5 years i know DE is one of those companies without anyone actually dedicated to explaining things in the game. The junction system was their first attempt to have some game knowledge required to progress and not just use the same shitty one weapon and frame for the whole star chart whilenot learning to mod or fight a boss etc. Then they added nightwave with challenges that need to explore different things in the game to get a series of one off per season rewards and some repeatable rewards in the weekly shop alongside and after. They reworked a few major system to simplify them and streamline the experience must theyre not anywhere close to done with that process.
Cant wait for Asmon to react to this, especially after his rant about how WoW system designers are (in)competent. :-)
PepeLa
good to see he's still playing warframe
Is that a good thing? No,seriously it is?
*Sad to see he's still playing warframe
He's caught the bug. He says he plans to at least get to the second dream and the war within.
@Xpectra32 As he said in his Warframe video (and myself with something like 800+ hours in the game) the jumping shooty parts are great. For anyone interested in warframe, my suggestion has always been: Play the game as your turn-off-brain and relax game. Something to kick around for an hour or two; keep engagement with it lowkey.
Trying to grind through all the content to "beat" the game or have the "best" equipment/builds is just going to cause you to burn out; especially doing it solo.
@@j5mello1 Yeah, I just put a podcast in the background and grind, unless it's a story mission.
Hearing Josh mention Warhammer tabletop in this topic stung a little, but I don't deny it.
Hey I’m so glad I found your channel! I normally don’t watch a ton of gaming channels despite loving games and mmos because I really hate the style of just shitting on a thing and not being objective that happens or the converse where someone only praises a game and doesn’t talk about the flaws and issues it has. I also love how you bring up so much analytical stuff as well and make an effort to understand things from the dev side!!
Anyway this isn’t really a comment on this video content specifically but I just wanted to say a big thanks and great work for making great content!!!
I never got the need to feature add so much with MMO's. I don't know about most people but for me the "Draw" of an expansion is simply new areas, new enemies, new story content, and miscellaneous customization expansion. If devs have something on the rare occasion that can really enhance the core gameplay then cheers that's fun in moderation ever once in a while, but it's not on my list of priorities.
Since you mentioned Warframe, I'd also like to point out a case of Warframe integrating an initially parasitic design.
Long time ago, they added a new mission type - Archwing. You float around in space with a jetpack and shoot stuff. Your warframe mods don't matter, you have to use a different weapon and different abilities, and it removes the best part of the game - the movement. And predictably, it was very poorly received.
Years later, they added open world areas, and now you could research and build item that allowed you to use archwings to move around the open maps quickly. And then they added awesome open world bosses, that required archwing weapons to take down. And even later, they added railjacks, spaceship battles, and you could use an archwing to leave the ship, and enter enemy ships and hijack them, or sabotage an enemy base. And they added cool archwing animations in some missions, and now it is a valuable (if still not a fan favorite) part of the game.
You know what's parasitic? The Endo cost to max out Primed and Galvanized mods
I think I now realize why every new summoning system inteoduced in every new Yu Gi Oh anime get weirder and weirder.
Thing is the anime usually just moves on to the next summoning system for the next series, but the systems stay in the card game, to the point that if you stop playing for a few years you will find the game almost unrecognizable when you join back.
As someone who's been playing Warframe for close to 7 years now, I gotta say that I'm glad you've recently taken your time to play this game and are starting to point things out.
Often, valid criticism like yours gets written off as "nostalgic veterans don't like where the game is heading" simply because many of us have played for a long time. Hearing this from someone like you who is new to this game, yet has many points of reference from experience with other games is refreshing.
Your recent videos haven't gone unnoticed by the player base, many of them welcoming your opinion.
Now, regarding what you said: I agree. As you've already noticed, Warframe suffers from feature creep quite a bit. And as of now, many of those features are parasitic. In fact, I can already name plenty off the top of my head: RailJack, Necramechs, Archguns, Archmelee, Eidolons/Orbs, Conclave, Amps, Hacking minigames, Parazon mercy... I could probably come up with double that.
However, since you've not experienced the history of this game, I'd like to shed some light on how this has gone down in the past.
First of all, it is worth mentioning that DE reliably fulfills two unspoken promises. One of them being "it'll be properly integrated to fit into the game eventually". Looking back at when they introduced Archwing in 2014, it didn't really add anything meaningful to the game. In fact after grinding out everything Archwing-related back then, I completely forgot about its existence. But just when I started saying "it's a niche mechanic that will get removed eventually", DE doubled down and integrated Archwing in various ways. Most notably into Open Worlds, the Grineer sealab tileset and RailJack. While it's still somewhat isolated (because DE strictly limits where you can deploy it), I've recently often had situations where I thought to myself "man, I wish I could deploy my Archwing right now". Same goes for other mechanics that have since been refined. Something similar applies to the Operator, Open Worlds etc.. which didn't fit in at first but have since been tied into the core mechanics quite nicely.
Occasionally, DE releases features that are secondary, yet fit right in immediately. Arbitrations, Helminth, Liches/Sisters, Relics and probably more come to mind. And rarely, DE manages to make a core mechanic obsolete, like they did with the Void. It used to be THE place to farm Prime items. Now it's a place you visit only when you need a very specific resource exactly once every couple months.
The most infuriating part during all of this is that it often falls on deaf ears. Warframe has a very dedicated community (this is now the norm for many bigger games, but before 2017 this was pretty much unprecedented) and a lot of brilliant minds that want to see the best possible version of this game. Yet with all this creative input (both positive and negative), DE often struggles to take a cue. It usually takes someone as big as TotalBiscuit (who GREATLY influenced until his passing, may he rest in peace) or maybe SkillUp to leave an impression on DE. Here's hoping you're able to achieve what many of us players never will.
Also: HaVE yOu dOne ThE sEConD dReAM aLrEAdY?
Hacking and Parazon actually arent simply due to mods applicable. They are extremely bare bones but they feedback loop back in. Now if only the parazon blood for energy mod wasnt at the END OF THE BLOODY STARCHART OPPOSITE OF WHERE IT SHOULD BE.
Liches meanwhile are still EXTREMELY parasitic, they dont synch back in with the core gameloop actively asking you to focus on them, their rewards are elongated 1 time/you dont hunt liches for the lich itself and how unique it is, you get them for the ephemera or weapon to 60% and stapled on a entire mod QTE system that does nothing outside of liches along with set a 5 forma resource sink.
The issue with "it'll be properly integrated to fit into the game eventually" is the "eventually". As you correctly pointed out, Archwing sat around pretty much unused and isolated from the main game for _years_ and several major updates until someone at DE finally could be arsed to take a look at it again. They're too much chasing the next shiny thing and don't care enough about going back and polishing older systems. It's like DE _as a company_ has ADHD.
I've quit Warframe … uuh, two or three years ago. And looking at Josh's footage, it feels like nothing has changed. And at the same time I know that if I started the game up again, I'd find half a dozen new systems that Steve got really excited about on stream at some point, that I'd have to learn for a story quest and because there's yet another resource hidden behind them that I need to craft the latest frame. And that's all they contribute to the game.
Counter point. Final Fantasy 14 constantly adds parasitic systems in every major patch but they are considered as one of the high points of the game. Eureka, Bozjan front, Firmerment, Squadron missions, Deep Dungeon. The reason they are considered good is because most give a tangable reward while doing it and a clear end goal at the end. Most of those systems help level alternate jobs and crafting skills. All have unique cosmetic, emotes, mounts, or weapon skin rewards. Despite being effectively dead and abandoned content, there is still a point.
Parasitic design features in Warframe: Vasca Kavats (they get your pet sick every time you go to the plains of Eidolon at night, and interfere with the vomvalyst spawns you need), universal vacuum, the color palette system, the way the affinity system gives you LESS affinity toward your weapon when you are getting kills with it or when you are doing most of the killing, most things in dojos, collectibles like Kurias and cephalon fragments, 99.9% of all mods, legendary cores, universal medallions, the Theorem Arcanes, most of the weapons in Warframe being mastery fodder, Kuva Siphons (Steel Path is a better way of farming Kuva now), the Crossfire "mission type", most of the nodes in the star chart, literally every archmelee weapon, K-Drives (especially that you can mod them, but who the hell does?), Transference Static, Darvo, and most items that can be equipped in your gear wheel.
I actually don't mind parasitic mechanics when done well. They can add a new way to play without messing with existing synergies and power levels. They are a way to keep things fresh without power creep. Although not always done perfectly, magic has a nice system for parasitic mechanics. In standard they are powerful but won't affect older formats, unless people really love the mechanic. In which case they can add supporting cards later down the line after the oriningal mechanic rotated out of standard.
I don't play MMOs and so this term is brand new for me. But I do TTRPG homebrew, quite heavy homebrew at times, so this instantly had me feeling paranoid I was guilty of this. But as you explained it I realised that I was actually fixing parasitic design. I never had a name for it and just saw it as fleshing out a forgotten mechanic and making it work outside of it's tiny space. But that is it seems, the definition of fixing parasitic design. I still recall the mindblow I had when I came up with a solution to a problem that as it turned out, was already in the game rules, but tucked so far away in one of the side rule books. They fixed it, but seemed almost ashamed of the fix. And then there are the oddities where they themselves put something into the game twice with different names, as if their own staff are also not realising something is already in. I picked a real mess of a game to try and fix.
Naturally it gets to a point where you think "I should just make my own game" but I did try that already. Amazingly, it's not actually less time consuming. I'm just lucky I'm doing this with something where I even can do this. MMO fans are entirely out of luck unless they have coding knowledge. But TTRPGs are exactly the kind of thing where 'coding knowledge' just means knowing English, and so you can change everything and anything.
I also used to make fake magic cards in an attempt to create more synergies among the sets. It seems that's been a part of me for decades. It's nice having a name for what drives me to be such a homebrewer. Not sure how I've never heard this term before. Great explanation!
Just love how you how you stated dungeonering from RuneScape, I still kinda feel that way about it today, even though it has been less, but it’s still needs more work to be less parasitic.
"What is Parasitic Design?"
*Shows Warframe*
Fitting.
Josh, have you ever considered covering Destiny? It's not quite a "full" mmo, but it seems to be trying to be. I ask because I'd be curious to see your analysis. As much as I love Destiny, this video puts a name to an issue I've had with destiny for a long time now, and I wonder what else you'd surmise given your ability to compare to other MMOs and live services.
Great video!
Plus one for a Josh/Destiny video
if he covers Destiny, he *has* to cover their straight up deletion of content people paid for, only to say "yeah buy this new expansion that we're gonna delete in 9 months".
@@erickschusterdeoliveira2662 im not sure but was content deletion motivated by reducing file size? Destiny seems the classical example of big file size big studio game full of assets that dont actually do much besides look pretty and take up space. I cant run it or afford so I wont play it myself in foreseeable future.
@@635574 it seems the main reason is story continuity surrounding the crow and Cayde 6's death. The next expansion they are archiving is forsaken so they don't have to keep explaining Cayde's death in each expansion...
@@erickschusterdeoliveira2662 Actually, the reason for the deletion was because Destiny swapped to a newer engine regarding some content generation and those old planets/areas were incompatible. So they temporarily removed them and are now converting them to run under the new engine. Bungie recently put up a statement that some vaulted maps are nearly done and will be returning soon (though how "soon" that means I have no idea).
My dude didn't blink for a full minute at the start of the video...
And here’s me blinking every ten seconds
Comfirmed. Josh is a robot.
He never blinks.
At some point i started wondering if parasitic design was just another word for every thing Blizzard has done in Shadowlands.
Bald one, I summon you to react to this!
It's not an MMO but what you described fits The Sims 4 pretty perfectly.
Around the 8 minute mark moving forward for litteral minutes, all I could think of was Pokemon.
For 5 generations the base game was preserved but added to within the ruleset. In gen 6 they added mega evolutions. Then they added Z-Moves. Then they added Gigantamax. But, strangely, these are all used in competitive play. Furthermore, they can have a significant alteration on meta picks based on which pokemon can use these benefits, but are not *always* selected. It's hard to sucinctly put into words how dramatic this effect is, and how deep it runs. Even so, it also feels quite tacked-on and not always thought out.
im now reminded of so many different things from mods to special events
This is exactly how I'd describe Destiny 2. A large part of the reason I've stopped playing it.
Us: "I hope every game designer, programmer, and player watches this video."
* Blizzard has logged out of RUclips *
Josh explaining parasitic design while playing Warframe, the absolute king of parasitic designs, also called "content islands" by the community.
Gotta love the irony
Any expansion is parasitic according to the explanation of parasitic design here, since removing that expansion still keeps the base gameplay. Perhaps we should just get one warframe, one primary weapon, one secondary and one melee and go kill enemies on one single map. Anything else is parasitic. No mods. No arcanes. No operator. No levelling warframes or weapons. It's all parasitic.
@@latjolajban81 Your logic doesn't make sense. Parasitic design implies that the new content feels or play in a very disconnected manner from the core gameplay aspects of said game.
Using Warframe as an example i can clearly show you the difference:
Lunaro, Conclave, K-Drives and once upon a time, even Archwings/Aquawings, could be described as parasitic designs, they don't add anything useful, interesting to the table while depending on the core aspect of the game and being completely disconnected from it.
While Kuva liches/Sisters of Parvos, new cinematic quests are all symbiotic designs, adding extra content that works in tandem with core gameplay aspects.
Operators remained in a pretty grey area during years, until The War Within came out as a core gameplay increment and even so, remained very disconnected until DE fleshed out the Focus system.
That being said: New content that feels part of the game is not Parasitic, content islands are Parasitic design.
as soon as you started talking about OSRS+RS2 i too very quickly remember the backlash when dungeoneering was first introduced.
Something important to note - about, at least, card games, as MtG has proven - is that expacs will almost always provide some form of parasitic mechanics at their inception, especially when taking only the Standard environment into account. It's the *degree* of how parasitic it is that matters. For the two examples you gave, it's actually a good example for either end. "Samurai matters" cards, in the context of Kamigawa block, were definitely parasitic by nature, as previously there weren't any Samurai to work with, and so decks with those cards were automatically limited to cards from Kamigawa block... for obvious reasons. But, at the same time, these same cards were meant to play in either a Sealed environment, or a Standard environment with the expectation that Mirrodin was going to rotate out soon. Creature-type matters cards aren't really that egregious, since it's always a possibility that you could see a surprise return, and to do so is, design-wise, simple. It's less that "Samurai matters" was a problem, and moreso that "Creature-type matters" is common across sets as a whole. Gimmickry? Yes, but ultimately not a waste of cardboard, as fleshing a creature type out is easy - even weird ones can see surprise returns in ones or twos later in the game's life.
Splice onto Arcane, on the other hand? Well, it required something that had really not been toyed with before - subtypes on noncreature spells. That, already, was a bit of a red flag - new creature types is easy, we've seen those before, and we can expect them to come up often. But this was weird. Not only that, but it required both *specifically* a gamepiece A (a card with Splice onto Arcane) and gamepiece B (an Arcane spell in-hand) along with the mana to do all of it. Not only was there a weird new instant/sorcery type entirely, but there weren't many of them, and they required another card to even make said subtype worthwhile. They could have made this non-parasitic by designing certain spells as Arcane in the Ravnica block that was in standard afterwards, but alas no such attempt was made. Another solution would have been to make Splice a non-Arcane-specific mechanic, which eventually they did try in Modern Horizons, with Everdream, which is literally Evermind except you can cast it and it Splices onto any instant or sorcery.
The idea isn't that you should never make parasitic mechanics - in fact, mechanics that bring new ideas to the table often will start out parasitic. It takes effort from the designers moving forward to continue to use that mechanic and flesh it out so that it can remain relevant for as long as it is needed. As you mentioned Dungeoneering from OSRS was parasitic by design - but that doesn't mean it wasn't fun, nor that it should never have been designed. It's just that the promise of "We'll flesh this system out" needs to be followed-up on to make sure that the system does eventually become synergistic.
That was the great blunder of Splice ultimately. If it was 'splice into type' (With types being Instant, Sorcery, ect) then it would have legs in terms of use and design.
WoW is the epitome of parasitic design in MMOs.
Every .x patch brings in a new power system, and they all get dumped in the next expansion.
*Path Of Exile has entered the chat.
Literally every new season mechanic is pure parasitic design, going by the definition Josh put forward in the video.
PoE gets away with it though, because Seasons are *intended* to be temporary. However, a great number of "season" mechanics end up integrated into the game as a whole, leading to massive feature creep. If they stuck with the original intent of "season mechanics are intentionally temporary," it would be fine, but they didn't.