I'm a home brewer and ran into this issue before it had a name. Nowadays, to avoid it, I use ALDC and "secondary" with hop oils. Keeps the frustration out. I whirlpool at 150F BTW. I love to see that sheen of oil on the cooled wort!
Dry hopping after the completion of fermentation can lead to the issue of re-fermentation during transport or at the customers. To avoid this, we often use the hop-creep effect with bio-transformation yeasts and low-amount dry-hop(1-1.5g/L)during primary fermentation, and high amount(6-8 g/L)during later stages of fermentation(1.5-2plato before fg)
Hi there. Are you a brewer ? I’m too and I would like to discuss about your process. I have some hop creep issue in fermenter. And would like to discuss some tips. Thanks bro.
A (soon to be pro) brewer friend of mine makes some of the BEST hazy IPA I've ever had. He adds a small % of maltodextrin to the boil (about 2.5-3%). So on homebrew scale that is 8 oz in the boil. It adds a fantastic mouthfeel to the beer. I had a hazy I wasn't happy with, and I actually diluted 8oz of maltodextrin in water and added it to the keg. It improved it a LOT. Not the ideal way, but I was desperate.
Hi. I haven't practiced all 3 solutions I'm about to write here... but this is the science I studied: If you leave any tiny amount of yeast in the beer, and you dry hop it while cold, then at any point of time if the temperature of beer raise (while in storage in the package) a second fermentation will occur ! This is due to tiny amount of sugars in hops (can be neglected), and mainly to enzymes contained in the hops that will hydrolyse some of the polysccharides / dextrins in the wort or in the young beer and turn them into fermentable sugars, so any yeast still present in the beer will find food to eat and go through a second fermentation. If this happen in the fermenter, then no problem, but if it happend in the package they it will result a problem mainly of over carbonation. So the 3 solutions I know are: 1- If dry hop was made at cold temperatures, you shall never allow the temperature to raise after packaging (not guaranteed because once the packaged beer leave the brewery you cannot really control the storage conditions at your distributors). 2- get rid of all the yeast completely through a sterile filtration or pasteurisation or a centrifuge (if you are allowed to use sterile filtration / pasteurisation. Centrifuge have other challenges with heat and oxygen ingress). 3- allow for a the hop creep by harvesting the yeast (optional), depending on flocculation abilities of the yeast. Normal harvesting after a cold crush will not get rid of all the yeast; some will remain in suspension, then dry hop before you reach the fg (and the temperature shall be adequate to the yeast to work, so it is definitely higher of the cold crush temperature). then you cold crush (again) to dump any remaining yeast and hops trubs resulted from the dry hop. This way you allow the second fermentaiton to happen in the fermenter before packaging. Again this is the science I leaned, I haven't tried to practice all 3 options so I cannot give practical details. (the way we do it is the third option, because for artisanal beer we are not allowed to sterile filter nor pasteurise) Cheers
Hi Adam, i'm a new brewer (300 litres atmospheric) in the south of France and love your videos very much, i think you are very humble despite all of your knowledge and i dig it:) Question: what kind of volume shall i expect to drain from the bottom valve (conical tank) in % approximatively after my fermentation is done? (1 week, gravity1010) and is it harmful to keep a little yeast in tank during resting time? thank you for what you share and keep that smile:) best
@@tortap Right, so the approach I've read of doing dry hopping at ambient yeast temps and letting it play out minimizing b/c you let that creep happen in a controlled scenario, outside the bottle. The argument against would be having the dry hop too long and having more vegetal aspects coming through. My instinct would be not to hop cold, since this requires more work and equipment.
@@humanonearth1 There are videos on youtube where Vinnie Cilurzo of russian river talks about hop creep. One mitigation strategy would be to dry hop a little early and let that creep. Then add the main charge of hops at a later stage. Pro brewers don't do that because they need to harvest yeast. But as a home brewer we can get away with it. What I have been doing since getting preassure fermenters is using hop bong to do oxygen free dry hopping. One early and then let finish at temp. Soft crash below 15 degrees C. Do a double dry hop over two days leave for 48 hours then cold crash. Then store cold. The cold temps prevent any creep but a warm bottle might still get some. But that is with 2-300 grams dry hop in 20 l batch.
This is interesting! For me, i'd want to eliminate the chance of additional fermentation in the can if it gets warm again. I'd be likely to just let it re-ferment in the vessel after hopping, not sure what the down side would be to this, I guess it would take longer and possibly raise ABV a tiny bit?
What do you think about doing this with an IPL?? Lets say I fermented at 50-52 degrees using Imperial L-13 global, I pull it off yeast and transfer it into a secondary and dry hop it, drop it even further below that fermentation temp? Like maybe 40 degrees or is that to cold??
Is this refermentation happening because the hops are breaking long chain sugars that the beer yeast can't eat into smaller chains? Like a mini mash extraction and fermentation at the same time?
@@adammakesbeer I wonder if heat would work on hops to denature enzymes like it does mash. I mean like heat your hops up before hand to like 150 or 160 and hold for a bit to stop the enzymes from activating? Just thinking outside off the box. It would probably affect hop oils I would think, or maybe loosen them for extraction in a dry hop
@@adamgodofwar666 Yeah it’s possible, I think your brain is going on the right direction. I know that they have been killing hops cooler over the years to maintain more oils.
@@adammakesbeer I read that is the SOP for Sapwood Cellars awhile back before seeing this video. I am going to have to try a 58F dry hop post ferm. Maybe better aroma and reducing the vegatal flavor?
I use the same technique with dry hopping too. Do you always have re-fermentation in package with this DH technique if being stored warm? Also, have you noticed, or heard that higher ABV IPAs doesn't have the same hop creep issue than lover ABV beers? Maybe that's because with 8-10% ABV, the yeast can't start the re-fermentation that easily?
I haven’t noticed refermentstion in our canned product to date, I am keeping my fingers crossed. All of my in house cans are never stored warm. I have not heard that correlation before but it makes sense. I will need to dig into that.
That's just kicking the problem down the road. Unless you are filtering below 4um you are still going to end up with overcarbed beer. The limit dextrinase and amyloglucosidase work from 0-60c. Whilst it is a lot slower cold it'll still makes it into packaged beer. And if you're not filtering the second you stick cans in a 10c cold room for more than a few week that carbonation will creep up.
What's your take on "biotransformation" where DH are added almost at high kraeusen? Do you find you get just as much aroma contribution doing yours late and cold vs. early and warm? Obvious side bene is that you can much more easily harvest yeast, but I'd be curious to hear your comparison, and opinion on "losing out" on the supposed conversion of geraniol to b-citranellol by only doing cold temp DH. Cheers, enthusiastic subscriber here.
Great question! I am not doing fermentation dry hopping because I want to harvest my yeast, so I am missing out on the character of the fermentation dry hop. It does seem as if there are advantages to it, I just typically don’t do it. I find that I get good flavor and aroma with the process that I am using, especially since I have been swapping out T90 pellets in the WP with a large percentage of cryo hops.
@@adammakesbeer Yep, it does. I'll try it back to back with early dry hopping, making the same beer, and see what I can tell in terms of flavor profile. I like that your method allows you to re-use the yeast.
Seems like I remember an episode of Bru Lab where they did an experiment with dry hopping at high Krausen for bio transfer. Their tests comparing this method with none bio transfer resulted in no noticeable difference if I remember correctly.
conical-fermenter.com/SP-DRY-HOPPER-13L.html?_vsrefdom=googleads&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnvOaBhDTARIsAJf8eVMUgsd0cTcxXLaNM15yNCGra7RxvO-5W19xKnxDFiEnpSi2i_1nwaEaAuzREALw_wcB There are others too.
I am seeing brewers putting way too many hops in active fermentation to make haze... it's just making bad beer and they are using wicked expensive hops to get biotransformation. To get the bulk of your Biotransformation you need to track your gravity. Once you are within 50% of terminal that's when you hit it with your hops for biotransformation and you don't need to be dumping massive amounts in like most breweries are doing. You can get the biotransformation with fewer hops and cheaper hops because the VOCs blow off during active fermentation which to your will help create that perceived balanced mouth feel which from my experience people and my personal opinion people want it on the finish as presenting as dry or clean versus hop burn or putting our green beer ie. Trillium, Burial and on and on and then telling people that is how those types of beers should taste a lot like when sours had a moment and brewers were putting out THP bombs and telling people no that's how its supposed to taste.
Good question. I am not sure about the effects of doing this and it’s impact on yeast health. I try to repitch my yeast as often as possible, so the soft crash of the tank actually helps to facilitate that as well.
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I'm a home brewer and ran into this issue before it had a name. Nowadays, to avoid it, I use ALDC and "secondary" with hop oils. Keeps the frustration out. I whirlpool at 150F BTW. I love to see that sheen of oil on the cooled wort!
Dry hopping after the completion of fermentation can lead to the issue of re-fermentation during transport or at the customers. To avoid this, we often use the hop-creep effect with bio-transformation yeasts and low-amount dry-hop(1-1.5g/L)during primary fermentation, and high amount(6-8 g/L)during later stages of fermentation(1.5-2plato before fg)
Hi there. Are you a brewer ?
I’m too and I would like to discuss about your process.
I have some hop creep issue in fermenter. And would like to discuss some tips. Thanks bro.
Love your videos man. I’m just a home brewer fantasizing about life with the big tanks, living vicariously through you. Keep up the good work.
Thanks so much!
A (soon to be pro) brewer friend of mine makes some of the BEST hazy IPA I've ever had. He adds a small % of maltodextrin to the boil (about 2.5-3%). So on homebrew scale that is 8 oz in the boil. It adds a fantastic mouthfeel to the beer. I had a hazy I wasn't happy with, and I actually diluted 8oz of maltodextrin in water and added it to the keg. It improved it a LOT. Not the ideal way, but I was desperate.
Awesome!
Hi. I haven't practiced all 3 solutions I'm about to write here... but this is the science I studied:
If you leave any tiny amount of yeast in the beer, and you dry hop it while cold, then at any point of time if the temperature of beer raise (while in storage in the package) a second fermentation will occur ! This is due to tiny amount of sugars in hops (can be neglected), and mainly to enzymes contained in the hops that will hydrolyse some of the polysccharides / dextrins in the wort or in the young beer and turn them into fermentable sugars, so any yeast still present in the beer will find food to eat and go through a second fermentation. If this happen in the fermenter, then no problem, but if it happend in the package they it will result a problem mainly of over carbonation.
So the 3 solutions I know are:
1- If dry hop was made at cold temperatures, you shall never allow the temperature to raise after packaging (not guaranteed because once the packaged beer leave the brewery you cannot really control the storage conditions at your distributors).
2- get rid of all the yeast completely through a sterile filtration or pasteurisation or a centrifuge (if you are allowed to use sterile filtration / pasteurisation. Centrifuge have other challenges with heat and oxygen ingress).
3- allow for a the hop creep by harvesting the yeast (optional), depending on flocculation abilities of the yeast. Normal harvesting after a cold crush will not get rid of all the yeast; some will remain in suspension, then dry hop before you reach the fg (and the temperature shall be adequate to the yeast to work, so it is definitely higher of the cold crush temperature). then you cold crush (again) to dump any remaining yeast and hops trubs resulted from the dry hop. This way you allow the second fermentaiton to happen in the fermenter before packaging.
Again this is the science I leaned, I haven't tried to practice all 3 options so I cannot give practical details. (the way we do it is the third option, because for artisanal beer we are not allowed to sterile filter nor pasteurise)
Cheers
Yes I have had that all be it in smaller volume, FG was good dry hopped and it started fermenting again I’m going to try this great idea
I'll never be a brewer but I do enjoy your videos, seeing what really happens in a brewery and in the mind of a brewer
Thanks Jim!
Hi Adam, i'm a new brewer (300 litres atmospheric) in the south of France and love your videos very much, i think you are very humble despite all of your knowledge and i dig it:) Question: what kind of volume shall i expect to drain from the bottom valve (conical tank) in % approximatively after my fermentation is done? (1 week, gravity1010) and is it harmful to keep a little yeast in tank during resting time? thank you for what you share and keep that smile:) best
answering on tomorrows livestream!
Will making a hop tea prevent a secondary fermentation and still impart a decent flavor? No longer a "dry" hopping but....cleaner too?
Same here in Panama! Cold dry hop.
Almost viewer 666... Great info, you may have pushed me over the edge for getting the Janish book. Keep em coming!
Thank you!!! That Janish book is sensational, no joke! I love all his content.
Great video. Subbed. Cheers from Boston ☮️
Thanks for the sub!
very juicy explanation, your first argentinian supporter.
Thank you very much!
second
would you say that at a homebrewer level we rack to a keg to get the beer of the yeast and then add hops ands then purge the kegafter at 58 deg?
so you add the hops how many days before you remove them out of the brew?
So what is causing the hop creep? Are there fermentables being introduced from the hops?
Enzymes in the hops break down previously unfermentable compounds into fermentable ones. Then yeast left in suspension can start working again.
@@tortap Right, so the approach I've read of doing dry hopping at ambient yeast temps and letting it play out minimizing b/c you let that creep happen in a controlled scenario, outside the bottle. The argument against would be having the dry hop too long and having more vegetal aspects coming through. My instinct would be not to hop cold, since this requires more work and equipment.
@@humanonearth1 There are videos on youtube where Vinnie Cilurzo of russian river talks about hop creep. One mitigation strategy would be to dry hop a little early and let that creep. Then add the main charge of hops at a later stage. Pro brewers don't do that because they need to harvest yeast. But as a home brewer we can get away with it. What I have been doing since getting preassure fermenters is using hop bong to do oxygen free dry hopping. One early and then let finish at temp. Soft crash below 15 degrees C. Do a double dry hop over two days leave for 48 hours then cold crash. Then store cold. The cold temps prevent any creep but a warm bottle might still get some. But that is with 2-300 grams dry hop in 20 l batch.
This is interesting! For me, i'd want to eliminate the chance of additional fermentation in the can if it gets warm again. I'd be likely to just let it re-ferment in the vessel after hopping, not sure what the down side would be to this, I guess it would take longer and possibly raise ABV a tiny bit?
Yes that is the idea. You could also use ALDC as an enzyme to help with some of the hop creep issues.
What do you think about doing this with an IPL?? Lets say I fermented at 50-52 degrees using Imperial L-13 global, I pull it off yeast and transfer it into a secondary and dry hop it, drop it even further below that fermentation temp? Like maybe 40 degrees or is that to cold??
What type of fermenter are you using? What scale? Home sized batches or pro?
Try using at least 5% dextrose in your grain bill. Russian River uses 8% works like a charm. Cheers!
Definetly! Using simple sugar is a great way to keep a beer from getting too heavy!
Hey adam, hoy many days after the cool down do you leave your
hops?
answering on mondays livestream
We use exactly the same process for our Hazy ipas.
Is this refermentation happening because the hops are breaking long chain sugars that the beer yeast can't eat into smaller chains? Like a mini mash extraction and fermentation at the same time?
Yes that appears to be the case.
@@adammakesbeer I wonder if heat would work on hops to denature enzymes like it does mash. I mean like heat your hops up before hand to like 150 or 160 and hold for a bit to stop the enzymes from activating? Just thinking outside off the box. It would probably affect hop oils I would think, or maybe loosen them for extraction in a dry hop
@@adamgodofwar666 Yeah it’s possible, I think your brain is going on the right direction. I know that they have been killing hops cooler over the years to maintain more oils.
Do you need to do anything for better extraction efficiency because of the colder temp? Thx!
Yes, I rouse the tank with CO2 from the bottom.
I left with the doubt if you make Dry hop at 14°C until you finish it, or you during it down the temp gradually to 4°C(or cold crash). Thanks.
I soft crash the beer down to 58F for a few days to harvest the yeast. Then I dry hop!
@@adammakesbeer I read that is the SOP for Sapwood Cellars awhile back before seeing this video. I am going to have to try a 58F dry hop post ferm. Maybe better aroma and reducing the vegatal flavor?
@@ajoyce Cold Dh is the way to go. I see Tree House doing this all the time too.
Great info
I use the same technique with dry hopping too. Do you always have re-fermentation in package with this DH technique if being stored warm? Also, have you noticed, or heard that higher ABV IPAs doesn't have the same hop creep issue than lover ABV beers? Maybe that's because with 8-10% ABV, the yeast can't start the re-fermentation that easily?
I haven’t noticed refermentstion in our canned product to date, I am keeping my fingers crossed. All of my in house cans are never stored warm. I have not heard that correlation before but it makes sense. I will need to dig into that.
@@adammakesbeer Okay. Good to hear. By the way, do you centrifuge those beers?
@@jrkz Nope.
That's just kicking the problem down the road. Unless you are filtering below 4um you are still going to end up with overcarbed beer. The limit dextrinase and amyloglucosidase work from 0-60c. Whilst it is a lot slower cold it'll still makes it into packaged beer. And if you're not filtering the second you stick cans in a 10c cold room for more than a few week that carbonation will creep up.
discussing this on wednesdays pod!
What's your take on "biotransformation" where DH are added almost at high kraeusen? Do you find you get just as much aroma contribution doing yours late and cold vs. early and warm? Obvious side bene is that you can much more easily harvest yeast, but I'd be curious to hear your comparison, and opinion on "losing out" on the supposed conversion of geraniol to b-citranellol by only doing cold temp DH. Cheers, enthusiastic subscriber here.
Great question! I am not doing fermentation dry hopping because I want to harvest my yeast, so I am missing out on the character of the fermentation dry hop. It does seem as if there are advantages to it, I just typically don’t do it. I find that I get good flavor and aroma with the process that I am using, especially since I have been swapping out T90 pellets in the WP with a large percentage of cryo hops.
Does that answer your question?
@@adammakesbeer Yep, it does. I'll try it back to back with early dry hopping, making the same beer, and see what I can tell in terms of flavor profile. I like that your method allows you to re-use the yeast.
@@jayspies9860 did you do a back to back test if love to know your results
Seems like I remember an episode of Bru Lab where they did an experiment with dry hopping at high Krausen for bio transfer. Their tests comparing this method with none bio transfer resulted in no noticeable difference if I remember correctly.
How long should the hops be in the fermenter after dryhopped them.
For my neipa i would add the hops on day 7, but dont know how for how long.
Usually if the yeast is healthy at day 5 you can do a vdk test and will be diacetyl free, if not, give it 2 more days.
Where did you get the hop doser, i have been thinking about getting something like that for the brewery I work at.
conical-fermenter.com/SP-DRY-HOPPER-13L.html?_vsrefdom=googleads&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnvOaBhDTARIsAJf8eVMUgsd0cTcxXLaNM15yNCGra7RxvO-5W19xKnxDFiEnpSi2i_1nwaEaAuzREALw_wcB
There are others too.
@@adammakesbeer thank you ill check this out, love the videos
Spunding solves many issues.
I am seeing brewers putting way too many hops in active fermentation to make haze... it's just making bad beer and they are using wicked expensive hops to get biotransformation. To get the bulk of your Biotransformation you need to track your gravity. Once you are within 50% of terminal that's when you hit it with your hops for biotransformation and you don't need to be dumping massive amounts in like most breweries are doing. You can get the biotransformation with fewer hops and cheaper hops because the VOCs blow off during active fermentation which to your will help create that perceived balanced mouth feel which from my experience people and my personal opinion people want it on the finish as presenting as dry or clean versus hop burn or putting our green beer ie. Trillium, Burial and on and on and then telling people that is how those types of beers should taste a lot like when sours had a moment and brewers were putting out THP bombs and telling people no that's how its supposed to taste.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just add some potassium sorbate to stop yeast reproduction?
Good question. I am not sure about the effects of doing this and it’s impact on yeast health. I try to repitch my yeast as often as possible, so the soft crash of the tank actually helps to facilitate that as well.