We actually had this EXACT instance occur during today's final round of the World Am. A competitor did not see his riding partner's ball when driving to the landing area of the riders drive until...AFTER they had already ran over it. They asked me and I told them what I had learned in this video so #thumbsup
YES! That is what this channel is all about! Very glad to hear you can take what you watch and learn on the channel to the course!! Are you referring to the World Am in Myrtle Beach? How did you do?
@@JayRobertsGolf what if the cart runs over the ball in 6 in of deep green ruff, same rules apply and if im within a club of the low cut ruff can i drop there.
@@matt7iron Hey Honest Blackman. The same rules apply in deep rough. You must find the nearest spot with a lie most similar. With that being said, the nearest most similar lie would not be in a lower cut of rough, it would be in the deeper 6 in rough. But in other relief situations, it is permissible to take relief from say the rough to the fairway, which I will have a video on coming out soon!!
I really like the way you describe how to approach the rules - your emphasis on referring back to definitions is great advice, and really necessary to the proper application of rules to various situations. Great channel - I'm a fan!
It's a game with difficult to understand rules and so many situations occur where rules become shadowy and unclear. You have shed light on many of them and cleared "the fog" around rules decisions! Look you are a much younger Slugger White! Love the channel and subbed / liked!
Great explanation. Just found your channel today and now I'm on my 3rd video. Question. At around 5:30, when you place the ball at the "most similar lie" do you also get relief within 1 club length of that spot, drop from knee height, etc, or do you have to actually place the ball with your hand as you did.?
In this circumstance, "Place" is the correct procedure. If the Ball had been kicked away by that Guy getting out of the Cart, and the Original Lie hadn't been changed or damaged, then the Ball is "Replaced" by Hand. Basically "Place" means put in a New Position, while "Replace" means a return to the original position. And to remove confusion, this is why the term in the Definitions of the exchange of one Ball for another is called "Substitute."
Nice video. You point out quite clearly how you should proceed. But what if the player lifts the ball and drops it within one club length of the original spot and the ball comes to rest within the one club length? And for argument's sake also within one club length of the place where it should have been replaced (and where it would stay)?
Thanks for the comment Menno! If you drop when you were supposed to place, you used the wrong procedure so it’s 1PS. When the original lie is altered, you must replace on a spot with a lie most similar to what you had before it moved, UP TO one club-length if needed. You don’t get a club-length to drop anywhere. In this case, the nearest most similar lie is going to be very close to the pitch mark and any place beyond that (even if it was within a club-length) would be a wrong place penalty of 2PS. When you breach a procedural penalty that has 1PS AND you breach a wrong place penalty that has 2PS, the player gets the higher penalty so 2PS total. Rule 1.3. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf I wondered whether the drop could be considered lateral relief under the unplayable rule. For one penalty stroke. But then the reference point is a bit unclear if you do not replace first. So I think your interpretation would be correct. Thanks!
Hey Menno, sorry I didn’t gather that from your question, which is a good one. However, Unplayable Ball relief cannot be used as a “backup, retroactive” relief procedure if what you did resulted in a wrong place penalty. Does that make sense? It’s a great question a surely an awesome topic for a future video that I just made note of 👍🏼
Great video Jay, lots of good Rule references and procedures and a potential "Best Supporting" something nomination for Dexter. Maybe the final piece of this particular jigsaw would be explaining when you could and could not have repaired the original hole from which relief has been taken and now has the potential to fall foul of CATS depending on intended stroke and location on the Course?
Thanks, Adrian! I actually touched on this in one of my shorts videos. The classic "i'm on the fringe but there's a pitch mark in my line on the fringe". Working on a video to explain the definition of CATS as we speak too! Thanks for the feedback!
Great video! Question: Why wouldn’t placing the ball next to the imbed mark be the area (inside one club length) of similar lie instead of behind the imbed mark? Or is that also an option, but you just chose behind the ball? Thanks again!
It’s 100% love :-) I would much rather play with these guys than the idiots that get all pissy if you roll it out of the hole an inch to the side. It’s a game - have fun.
Question: Do you have to see the cart rolling over the ball ? I caddied in a tournament and my player's ball came to rest in a pitch mark. Nobody saw the ball bounce so we applied the Patrick Reed rule. The ball was considered embeded.
Great question and glad to see a caddie learning the rules to protect their player! For both situations (a cart rolling over the ball and a ball being embedded), you don't have to physically see the ball being rolled over or becoming embedded. For the cart (i.e. ball being moved by an Outside Influence), you may take appropriate relief as long as you have (known or) virtual certainty. That is, "although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened" {definition of Known or Virtually Certain}. For the ball being embedded, we don't apply Known or Virtual Certainty but "it must be reasonable to conclude that the ball is in its own pitch-mark for the player to take relief". As an example, "a player's approach shot lands on soft ground just short of the putting green in the general area. The player sees the ball bounce forward and then spin back. When the player arrives at the ball, he or she sees that it is embedded in the only pitch-mark in the area. Since it is reasonable to conclude that the ball spun into its own pitch-mark, the player may take relief" for embedded ball {16.3a(2)/1} Hope that helps!
Thank you for that rule. Please could you list the new amended rules effective January 2023. Does the new amended rules allow the player to now carry 18 clubs instead of the normal 14 clubs.Thank you.
No. The number of clubs you may start or have during a round is still limited to 14. You can find the 2023 Rules resources by following this link: www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/2023-rules-of-golf/2023-rules-resources.html
Thank you. I just learned I was incorrectly assessed a penalty stroke a few years ago. I addressed my ball for a two foot putt, and the ball "wobbled", it did not "move" . My opponent said the ball moved, so we asked the pro, and he concurred.
That's a shame. Sorry that happened. Club pros have been known to give incorrect rulings. But now you know and going forward you'll be in a much better place to protect your card 💪
You'll find quite a few club pros learned enough rules to a pass a rules test requirement to become a professional many years ago, but were never that interested in becoming a rules expert and haven't really studied the rules since. In other words, they're like a low-handicapper - just because they're really good at golf doesn't make them a rules expert.
In this case, the ball was moved by an Outside Influence. You always replace when that happens. But here, the original lie was altered. You don't get to replace anywhere within one club-length but rather find the nearest spot with a lie most similar to what you had before it was moved, UP TO one club-length. Does that help?
That's a great question. Having discussed this with the USGA in the past, I'm afraid the answer falls into a sliver of grey area. Repairing the pot mark and replacing the ball on it could be viewed as a breach of 8.1a(3) for Improving the Conditions (lie) Affecting the Stroke by "eliminating holes...or uneven surfaces". Two stroke penalty for that. One could then argue though that the player is entitled to the same lie they had when the ball came to rest. However, the lie can be altered in so many different ways so to construct a relief procedure that addresses each variance would add time and complications within the rules compared to the remedy the player has now under 14.2e, which is to simply replace the ball on the nearest spot with a lie most similar. In summary, you might get away with it but you'd run the risk of a General Penalty for something that really creates no advantage at all so I don't think it's worth it to try IMO.
@@JayRobertsGolf I think you could play your shot and then repair the pot mark similar to if it was a divot. Important to maintain the course and prevent another player ending up in it.
YES, You and Your Cart (which is your Equipment) are NOT an "Outside Influence". And if it were your Playing Partner driving the Cart, it would still be a Penalty to you under Rule 9.4
I know this video is old and don't expect a response. But i had a similar but different situation in competition one day and want to know if it was handled correctly or not. Drive my ball into the standard rough (which happens to be very thick at this course). Group arrives at the estimated location, everyone looks for the full 2-3 minutes but my ball cannot be found. There aren't any hazards or penalty areas near where my ball should be, but it wouldn't be the first time a ball has disappeared in the rough at this course. I ask one of my fellow competitors if there's any chance it's underneath his cart and he gets on the ground and looks underneath, and says no chance. I walk back to the tee to replay the shot like I have to. When i return to the area everyone is gathered, I'm told they found my first ball underneath the cart tire when they moved their cart to make room for drive #2. I was walking not involved with the cart at all personally. I just took embedded relief and played the first ball with no penalty. No one had any issue with this but none of us actually knew what the rule was and is got be curious if I "cheated" or not. I know that usually once you declare the ball lost that's it even if it happens to be found after, but I don't know if there are any exceptions for negligence from your opponents.
This reminds me of a peculiar thought I had on a day when we were playing lift clean and place. After lifting and cleaning, if I place my ball and it rolls into a bad lie, like a divot, is it in play or can I place it again?
Great question! I am going to cover lift, clean, and place soon!! We need more specifics on this scenario though. As soon as you let go of the ball, did the ball immediately roll off the spot? If it did, you are required to replace the ball on the same spot. If it again does not stay at rest on the spot you let go of the ball, you must then place the ball on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest. On the other hand, if the ball was at rest and then moved while you were getting your yardage for example, the ball has been moved by Natural Forces (wind/gravity) and you would need to play the ball as it lies. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf Good reply. My question is about the ball moving as soon as it’s released. I and the people I play with just keep trying until we get a lie we like, which I think effectively complies with the rule. If I hover my fingers a hair’s breadth from the ball and it starts to move I place it again until it doesn’t move. I’m not attending to whether I’m aiming for the identical spot or trying again a tiny distance away. A stickler might try to call me on it, and might succeed, but I’m inclined to be satisfied with complying with the spirit of a rule if no unfair advantage is gained, and I think my process does that. I’d assume having the ball slip from your hands while lifting, cleaning, and before placing would be ignored by the rule. Off topic, but I’m annoyed by the new local rule on 48 inch drivers. The rule does not seem to have a clear purpose, nor does any research connect the rule with success against a purpose. The USGA appears to admit they think it’s preventative, not remediating any current problem. Very few players have adopted long shafts, and almost all players on the longest drive stat don’t use them, so they aren’t preventing anything. I use one and like it, and the rule could pointlessly interfere with my enjoyment. Seems like an amateur attempt at public relations/social engineering.
@@doncurzonify I too find the new local rule interesting and can't quite put my finger on what the true reasoning is behind it. I actually have a call with the USGA next week, I may pick their brain on it and see where they're coming from with that. Who knows, maybe I could turn it into a video??
Watching him kneel on a towel made me remember when a pro tried to avoid staining his pants for a kneeling shot and was penalized for building a stance with his towel.
Per 9.4, if you move the ball in any way in the General Area (even if it's accidental with club, shoe, etc.) it's a one stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it's not replaced and you play the ball from it's new location, you would get the General Penalty for playing from a Wrong Place.
Questions: Can you merely fix the "pitch mark" in the fairway with a tool one would use on the green then replace the ball? If this is a playing partner who believes this is their ball (knowing full well it is not in some cases), is the playing partner penalized or does one just tell them to stop being an ass and replace the ball where you believe it was?
Fixing the pitch mark is an interesting question that I’ve actually gotten guidance from the USGA about. The short answer is no simply because 14.2 already provides the prescribed procedure for what to do. In this case, the player ‘must’ (meaning required) replace the ball by finding the nearest spot with a lie most similar 🤷🏼♂️ as far as the second question, are you asking what happens if my playing partner (the guy on my team) ran over my ball?
@@JayRobertsGolf Thank you on #1. I get it. #2, Was answered with #1 but this is just a week day outing...not tournament play. To be honest, we have a guy who ends up in our group of 4. This person doesn't pay attention to his shots then will walk up to other players balls, at times picking them up then putting them down. This guy we play with would be an "outside influence", I assume, regardless of his being inattentive and a nuisance. This player incurs no penalty unless it was tournament play, correct?
If you go back and draw a red horizontal line along the vertical of the ball you'll also notice the ball did move forward as well a fraction so even if the definition of when a ball moves only applies to a horizontal movement it would still qualify in this case because the ball does move forward just a bit. I Gotta say I've seen birds steal food from our cart but never has one attacked our ball. That's pretty funny. Thanks for the great explanation on this rule.
I had the greens keeper mow my drive to pieces and then, after I dropped and hit my second shot, I watched him mow that one to bits while I was getting in my cart. Any rules on that?
Twice in the same hole?! He definitely owes you a drink lol. In both cases, your ball has been moved by an Outside Influence. You are then required to replace (not drop) your ball back on it's original spot. Because the ball is now mown to pieces, that would constitute damage and you would be permitted to substitute the ball for a different one. Hope that helps!
No, to "fixing" prior to the Stroke. Generally, a Ball would be moved Laterally and is then required to be "Replaced" as close to the Original Position as can be determined under the circumstances.
I really appreciate your comment. That’s a high level question. After taking relief and replacing the ball, if the ball was moved by the wind (natural forces) you would have to play the ball as it lies in the pitch mark. Because the pitch mark that the ball is lying in was not a result of the previous stroke, you couldn’t take embedded ball relief. That would be extremely unlucky
wait why isn't it considered the opponent and their caddy who moved the ball, when they were the one that drove over the ball? What's the definition of an opponent moving the ball? can they only do it with their hand?
Not repair the hole made by the ball & replace there? Then again, the repaired hole would most likely become part of a divot repair, so some extra repair time there.
Jay never answered you. I would say yes. The justification being that you are entitled to the playing conditions you had when the ball originally came to rest. If another player protested by saying that the pitch mark is not interfering with your new intended lie, swing, or line of play, your answer should be: then there is nothing restricting me from repairing such a pitch mark. 1. If interfering, you can fix it for one reason. 2. If not interfering, you can fix it for another reason.
@@RandsurferYou fix it after the Stroke because you aren't Replacing the Ball here. On a Putting Green there is no need for Embedded Ball Relief because you are already allowed 2 things: to Mark, Lift, Clean and Replace the Ball; and to Repair any Damage to the Putting Surface.
Simply, No you can't fix that damage because you can't return the Damage to get the "Original Lie". Fix it after your Stroke along with any Divot taken.
Not quite. I explained why it wasn't "embedded" and being in the fairway is irrelevant. If the ball is embedded in the rough, you are still entitled to free relief👍
Honestly, this is the perfect example of why golf rules are so stupid. We all know that if a golf cart runs over a ball and pushes it into the dirt, common sense says you get relief just take it out of the damn hole. The fact that it requires 10,000 different variations of which rules were using, it's just nonsense. And as a result, this is why recreational rounds end up taking 5 hours, because a handful of people want to play the exact way you would play on tour.
So, what you’re saying Is that you “don’t like rules”, the rules “slow you down”. It would be fun to interview you for a job on the course. Tell us more about yourself.
If my prospective employer took me violating a rule of golf as the potential for me to violate a rule in my line of work (when it actually matters) then that employer is an idiot. “Oh he didn’t play it as it lies as a 16 handicapper… my company is in danger” Seriously shut TF up
I would get a 1 stroke penalty under 9.4 for causing my ball to move (even if it was accidental). I would then need to go through with replacing it. But if the ball was in the rough for example, and I was searching for it when I ran it over, no penalty for accidentally moving it during search. Replace the ball and play on!
when I was in the Army and a group of us would get together for a Sunday outing of Combat Golf, the rules clearly stated that if you got to an opponents ball before they did, anything was fair game, including running over the ball with the golf cart... ball must be played from where it lies, even if placed on top of a beer can or another such device...lighten up... why so serious??? ;)
Sounds like fun. But this channel is dedicated to helping competitive golfers of all abilities understand the nuances of the rules so they can better protect their scorecard.
@@JayRobertsGolf oh goodness me! what was I thinking?!?! after all the years I have spent hacking at this game, I forgot the Prime Directive - There Is No Place For LEVITY In Golf!!! my bad... won't happen again...I shall now slink away, never to return...
I overlooked your comment, Steve. Sorry about that. In Stroke Play, there is no penalty to the other player for causing my ball to move. But in Match Play, that player would get one penalty stroke. In both formats, a beer is required as a form of apology 😂
Nice explanation but unfortunately, you end it wrong. As you stated, you have to drop within a club length, not nearer to the hole. Then you drop wrong, it should be done standing up and from knee height, and suddenly you state that it should be nearest to the original location? Anywhere inside a clublenght, not nearer to the hole and on the fairway would suffice…
Hi Gijs, the ball was moved by an Outside Influence. Per 9.6, the ball is to be replaced, not dropped. I didn’t drop, but replaced. Furthermore, the original lie was altered so per 14.2d, you are to find a lie most similar to what the original lie was, up to 1 club length.
No chance. Most golfers just drop another ball wherever and move on so I fail to see how the rules (or any rule for that matter) is the culprit of slow play
Just played a steeplechase where I women drove over my ball and I saw it move 6 inches right and into a bad lie. Called the “pro” over and he said if no one else saw it move he doesn’t believe me. Class act piece of trash.
Unfortunately, the golf course pro got this Ruling wrong. There is a "known or virtually certain" standard for deciding if the ball moved, as well as what caused it to move. As long as it is Known or Virtual Certain (virtually certain = at least 95% probability) that the ball has moved, then the ball is treated has having moved. In this case, it was Known that the ball moved because you actually watched it happen. This situation is dictated by you (the player). It doesn't require any other witnesses or even an "agreement" that it moved by anyone else. You should have replaced the ball on the original spot. The pro needs to take a look at Rule 9.2
How abt in match play if person A accidentally kicks or walks into the golf ball of his partner B whilst the ball is on the fairway /rough? Same procedure to apply. It was not intentional.
Your opponent ran the ball over. That's sabotage. Disqualified. Kick him out. Take his bag and clubs. Banned from golf forever. It's in the Rules of Golf, one of the appendixes, I believe.
Why not just a simple rule to be used if a ball is run over by a cart or maintenance vehicles, or stepped on. Should be quite simple to define these events and make a resolution. It seems gold does not have rules or laws, but only enigmas.
@@JayRobertsGolf I have no problem with what you explained. You explained it well. It is just that the embedded ball rules does not imply even though the ball is embedded and then the moved ball rule takes over. This situation is a ball embedded by a golf cart/maintenance vehicle so why just not 1 rule for this situation. I am not a golfer but it seems this should come under the imbedded ball rule by just adding another sub-rule to the embedded ball rule.
Yes 😕 I said it at the end, “It’s a long explanation for a simple procedure”. But, Ive learned that breaking down the why and how serves much better for memory retention. If you know the why and how, you are better able to connect the dots with situations that may be similar but are different. IMO 😁
We actually had this EXACT instance occur during today's final round of the World Am. A competitor did not see his riding partner's ball when driving to the landing area of the riders drive until...AFTER they had already ran over it. They asked me and I told them what I had learned in this video so #thumbsup
YES! That is what this channel is all about! Very glad to hear you can take what you watch and learn on the channel to the course!! Are you referring to the World Am in Myrtle Beach? How did you do?
@@JayRobertsGolf what if the cart runs over the ball in 6 in of deep green ruff, same rules apply and if im within a club of the low cut ruff can i drop there.
@@matt7iron Hey Honest Blackman. The same rules apply in deep rough. You must find the nearest spot with a lie most similar. With that being said, the nearest most similar lie would not be in a lower cut of rough, it would be in the deeper 6 in rough. But in other relief situations, it is permissible to take relief from say the rough to the fairway, which I will have a video on coming out soon!!
I really like the way you describe how to approach the rules - your emphasis on referring back to definitions is great advice, and really necessary to the proper application of rules to various situations. Great channel - I'm a fan!
Thanks very much for the comment, Tim. Appreciate the support! 🏌️♂️😁
Okay, just keep all that nonsense off public courses.
There are lot of golf rules videos on RUclips and this is the best!
That means a lot, Richard! Thanks for the comment!
I haven't played in over 45 years. However, I love your explanations. I find them fascinating. Thank you!
I really appreciate that! Thank you 🙏🏼 ⛳️
It's a game with difficult to understand rules and so many situations occur where rules become shadowy and unclear. You have shed light on many of them and cleared "the fog" around rules decisions! Look you are a much younger Slugger White! Love the channel and subbed / liked!
Most underrated golf channel on youtube. Great video Jay!!! Thanks for the crystal clear explanations brother. AZ loves ya buddy!
Thank you man means a lot!
Loved what you said at the end and agree! This outlined many rules that most are oblivious to. Also that Dexter is a great actor!
Dexter might be getting a call back for another production soon
That wasn't Dexter, that was clearly Aaron Rodgers. 😁
@@CalicoMonkey LMAO
Very well explained Jay thank you for creating these. I have only just discovered your channel and will let the Lad's know
Great explanation. Just found your channel today and now I'm on my 3rd video. Question. At around 5:30, when you place the ball at the "most similar lie" do you also get relief within 1 club length of that spot, drop from knee height, etc, or do you have to actually place the ball with your hand as you did.?
In this circumstance, "Place" is the correct procedure.
If the Ball had been kicked away by that Guy getting out of the Cart, and the Original Lie hadn't been changed or damaged, then the Ball is "Replaced" by Hand.
Basically "Place" means put in a New Position, while "Replace" means a return to the original position.
And to remove confusion, this is why the term in the Definitions of the exchange of one Ball for another is called "Substitute."
That was a really excellent explanation.
Thanks a lot Dallas! I appreciate the comment⛳️
Great fairway!
Concise explanation of situation and remedy!
Nice video. You point out quite clearly how you should proceed. But what if the player lifts the ball and drops it within one club length of the original spot and the ball comes to rest within the one club length? And for argument's sake also within one club length of the place where it should have been replaced (and where it would stay)?
Thanks for the comment Menno! If you drop when you were supposed to place, you used the wrong procedure so it’s 1PS. When the original lie is altered, you must replace on a spot with a lie most similar to what you had before it moved, UP TO one club-length if needed. You don’t get a club-length to drop anywhere. In this case, the nearest most similar lie is going to be very close to the pitch mark and any place beyond that (even if it was within a club-length) would be a wrong place penalty of 2PS. When you breach a procedural penalty that has 1PS AND you breach a wrong place penalty that has 2PS, the player gets the higher penalty so 2PS total. Rule 1.3. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf I wondered whether the drop could be considered lateral relief under the unplayable rule. For one penalty stroke. But then the reference point is a bit unclear if you do not replace first. So I think your interpretation would be correct. Thanks!
Hey Menno, sorry I didn’t gather that from your question, which is a good one. However, Unplayable Ball relief cannot be used as a “backup, retroactive” relief procedure if what you did resulted in a wrong place penalty. Does that make sense? It’s a great question a surely an awesome topic for a future video that I just made note of 👍🏼
@@JayRobertsGolf OK, thanks, looking forward to your new video(s)
Excellent explanation. Also, I really liked it because you provided the rule without talking it to death. Thank you. 👍👍
Thanks for that comment, Dan! 👊🏽
Great video Jay, lots of good Rule references and procedures and a potential "Best Supporting" something nomination for Dexter. Maybe the final piece of this particular jigsaw would be explaining when you could and could not have repaired the original hole from which relief has been taken and now has the potential to fall foul of CATS depending on intended stroke and location on the Course?
Thanks, Adrian! I actually touched on this in one of my shorts videos. The classic "i'm on the fringe but there's a pitch mark in my line on the fringe". Working on a video to explain the definition of CATS as we speak too! Thanks for the feedback!
Just discovered and absolutely love your videos. Your use of the rule book and detailed explanations are excellent.
That means a lot! Thanks for the kind words! ⛳️
Great video! Question: Why wouldn’t placing the ball next to the imbed mark be the area (inside one club length) of similar lie instead of behind the imbed mark? Or is that also an option, but you just chose behind the ball? Thanks again!
Thanks for the comment and good question. In this case, the nearest spot could be left, right, or behind. I just chose behind 👍
This happens 3-4 times a round with my buds and I...and it isn't accidental.
You need new "buds."
It sucks to play in your group!
How much beer is involved?
What's the ruling if your buddies run you over?
It’s 100% love :-) I would much rather play with these guys than the idiots that get all pissy if you roll it out of the hole an inch to the side. It’s a game - have fun.
Why do the rules not require the fairway ball mark to be repaired the way ball marks on the green or divots on the fairway have to be repaired?
You would fix the Hole AFTER you play your Stroke.
Question: Do you have to see the cart rolling over the ball ?
I caddied in a tournament and my player's ball came to rest in a pitch mark. Nobody saw the ball bounce so we applied the Patrick Reed rule. The ball was considered embeded.
Great question and glad to see a caddie learning the rules to protect their player!
For both situations (a cart rolling over the ball and a ball being embedded), you don't have to physically see the ball being rolled over or becoming embedded.
For the cart (i.e. ball being moved by an Outside Influence), you may take appropriate relief as long as you have (known or) virtual certainty. That is, "although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened" {definition of Known or Virtually Certain}.
For the ball being embedded, we don't apply Known or Virtual Certainty but "it must be reasonable to conclude that the ball is in its own pitch-mark for the player to take relief".
As an example, "a player's approach shot lands on soft ground just short of the putting green in the general area. The player sees the ball bounce forward and then spin back. When the player arrives at the ball, he or she sees that it is embedded in the only pitch-mark in the area. Since it is reasonable to conclude that the ball spun into its own pitch-mark, the player may take relief" for embedded ball {16.3a(2)/1}
Hope that helps!
This is my new favorite video
Dexter adds a lot of production value
Thank you for that rule. Please could you list the new amended rules effective January 2023. Does the new amended rules allow the player to now carry 18 clubs instead of the normal 14 clubs.Thank you.
No. The number of clubs you may start or have during a round is still limited to 14. You can find the 2023 Rules resources by following this link: www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/2023-rules-of-golf/2023-rules-resources.html
can you repair the ball mark before replacing the ball?
Thank you. I just learned I was incorrectly assessed a penalty stroke a few years ago. I addressed my ball for a two foot putt, and the ball "wobbled", it did not "move" . My opponent said the ball moved, so we asked the pro, and he concurred.
That's a shame. Sorry that happened. Club pros have been known to give incorrect rulings. But now you know and going forward you'll be in a much better place to protect your card 💪
You'll find quite a few club pros learned enough rules to a pass a rules test requirement to become a professional many years ago, but were never that interested in becoming a rules expert and haven't really studied the rules since. In other words, they're like a low-handicapper - just because they're really good at golf doesn't make them a rules expert.
Ahh my favorite pastime. Running over my bros ball as I’m on my way to my ball after out driving him by 50 yards
Pity you don’t play the game in the manner it’s supposed to be played, I take it you only play social golf and not competitive golf
@@davidc9171 pity you have no sense of humour.
@@cheefussmith9380 “cheefus”. Hahahahaha
Great explanation!
You placed it next to the hole but do you place it or drop it within a club length?.
In this case, the ball was moved by an Outside Influence. You always replace when that happens. But here, the original lie was altered. You don't get to replace anywhere within one club-length but rather find the nearest spot with a lie most similar to what you had before it was moved, UP TO one club-length. Does that help?
The rule is it’s hilarious. This happens to my brother every time he plays golf with me
LOL. That doesn't sound like a coincidence 🤣
Can you repair the pot mark that was made before you place the ball next to the pot mark?
That's a great question. Having discussed this with the USGA in the past, I'm afraid the answer falls into a sliver of grey area.
Repairing the pot mark and replacing the ball on it could be viewed as a breach of 8.1a(3) for Improving the Conditions (lie) Affecting the Stroke by "eliminating holes...or uneven surfaces". Two stroke penalty for that. One could then argue though that the player is entitled to the same lie they had when the ball came to rest. However, the lie can be altered in so many different ways so to construct a relief procedure that addresses each variance would add time and complications within the rules compared to the remedy the player has now under 14.2e, which is to simply replace the ball on the nearest spot with a lie most similar. In summary, you might get away with it but you'd run the risk of a General Penalty for something that really creates no advantage at all so I don't think it's worth it to try IMO.
@@JayRobertsGolf I think you could play your shot and then repair the pot mark similar to if it was a divot. Important to maintain the course and prevent another player ending up in it.
@@adrianbauze1864definitely repair the damage, but only After playing your Stroke.
Is it different if the person who is playing the ball is also the driver of the golf cart?
YES, You and Your Cart (which is your Equipment) are NOT an "Outside Influence".
And if it were your Playing Partner driving the Cart, it would still be a Penalty to you under Rule 9.4
Do u drop the ball from knee height or place it.
Not only did I enjoy the intro, I also liked Dexter’s “innocent” look at :46
I know this video is old and don't expect a response.
But i had a similar but different situation in competition one day and want to know if it was handled correctly or not.
Drive my ball into the standard rough (which happens to be very thick at this course).
Group arrives at the estimated location, everyone looks for the full 2-3 minutes but my ball cannot be found. There aren't any hazards or penalty areas near where my ball should be, but it wouldn't be the first time a ball has disappeared in the rough at this course.
I ask one of my fellow competitors if there's any chance it's underneath his cart and he gets on the ground and looks underneath, and says no chance.
I walk back to the tee to replay the shot like I have to.
When i return to the area everyone is gathered, I'm told they found my first ball underneath the cart tire when they moved their cart to make room for drive #2. I was walking not involved with the cart at all personally.
I just took embedded relief and played the first ball with no penalty. No one had any issue with this but none of us actually knew what the rule was and is got be curious if I "cheated" or not.
I know that usually once you declare the ball lost that's it even if it happens to be found after, but I don't know if there are any exceptions for negligence from your opponents.
More common is a ball getting run over by a cart in the rough or someone stepping on your ball in the rough or a hazard. Same rule applies tho.
This reminds me of a peculiar thought I had on a day when we were playing lift clean and place. After lifting and cleaning, if I place my ball and it rolls into a bad lie, like a divot, is it in play or can I place it again?
Great question! I am going to cover lift, clean, and place soon!! We need more specifics on this scenario though. As soon as you let go of the ball, did the ball immediately roll off the spot? If it did, you are required to replace the ball on the same spot. If it again does not stay at rest on the spot you let go of the ball, you must then place the ball on the nearest spot where the ball will stay at rest. On the other hand, if the ball was at rest and then moved while you were getting your yardage for example, the ball has been moved by Natural Forces (wind/gravity) and you would need to play the ball as it lies. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf Good reply. My question is about the ball moving as soon as it’s released. I and the people I play with just keep trying until we get a lie we like, which I think effectively complies with the rule. If I hover my fingers a hair’s breadth from the ball and it starts to move I place it again until it doesn’t move. I’m not attending to whether I’m aiming for the identical spot or trying again a tiny distance away. A stickler might try to call me on it, and might succeed, but I’m inclined to be satisfied with complying with the spirit of a rule if no unfair advantage is gained, and I think my process does that. I’d assume having the ball slip from your hands while lifting, cleaning, and before placing would be ignored by the rule. Off topic, but I’m annoyed by the new local rule on 48 inch drivers. The rule does not seem to have a clear purpose, nor does any research connect the rule with success against a purpose. The USGA appears to admit they think it’s preventative, not remediating any current problem. Very few players have adopted long shafts, and almost all players on the longest drive stat don’t use them, so they aren’t preventing anything. I use one and like it, and the rule could pointlessly interfere with my enjoyment. Seems like an amateur attempt at public relations/social engineering.
@@doncurzonify I too find the new local rule interesting and can't quite put my finger on what the true reasoning is behind it. I actually have a call with the USGA next week, I may pick their brain on it and see where they're coming from with that. Who knows, maybe I could turn it into a video??
Is there a penalty for the person who ran over your ball in Match play? Does a penalty incur if your ball is in the rough vs the fairway?
So you can place it? No drop?
Watching him kneel on a towel made me remember when a pro tried to avoid staining his pants for a kneeling shot and was penalized for building a stance with his towel.
Ballesteros I think years ago?
I looked it up, Craig Stadler, There is a video of Ballesteros on his knees playing a shot but no towel. My memory is fading 😃
Craig Stadler
excellent video
Love that golf course...
Love the protection of your knees to the grass.
LOL
What happens if in the general area i accidentally move my ball, either during a practice swing or when touching it with my shoe, hand, etc?
Per 9.4, if you move the ball in any way in the General Area (even if it's accidental with club, shoe, etc.) it's a one stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it's not replaced and you play the ball from it's new location, you would get the General Penalty for playing from a Wrong Place.
@@JayRobertsGolf thank you for your reply.
@@francisliew2662 no problem!
I like the fact you put a towel down to kneel on.
That fairway is better than my carpet 😜
Questions: Can you merely fix the "pitch mark" in the fairway with a tool one would use on the green then replace the ball? If this is a playing partner who believes this is their ball (knowing full well it is not in some cases), is the playing partner penalized or does one just tell them to stop being an ass and replace the ball where you believe it was?
Fixing the pitch mark is an interesting question that I’ve actually gotten guidance from the USGA about. The short answer is no simply because 14.2 already provides the prescribed procedure for what to do. In this case, the player ‘must’ (meaning required) replace the ball by finding the nearest spot with a lie most similar 🤷🏼♂️ as far as the second question, are you asking what happens if my playing partner (the guy on my team) ran over my ball?
@@JayRobertsGolf Thank you on #1. I get it. #2, Was answered with #1 but this is just a week day outing...not tournament play. To be honest, we have a guy who ends up in our group of 4. This person doesn't pay attention to his shots then will walk up to other players balls, at times picking them up then putting them down. This guy we play with would be an "outside influence", I assume, regardless of his being inattentive and a nuisance. This player incurs no penalty unless it was tournament play, correct?
Good video, I did this to another players ball and he tried saying it was a 2 shot penalty! A row started which lasted a couple of months 🤣
LOL. You are free and clear from penalty!
Would you repair that indentation before playing?
That was a pretty simple explanation but what if you were searching for your ball and ran it over by yourself on accident
NO Penalty if this happens during a Search, but if you did this yourself to an obvious Ball, such as shown in the video, Penalty under Rule 9.4
If you go back and draw a red horizontal line along the vertical of the ball you'll also notice the ball did move forward as well a fraction so even if the definition of when a ball moves only applies to a horizontal movement it would still qualify in this case because the ball does move forward just a bit. I Gotta say I've seen birds steal food from our cart but never has one attacked our ball. That's pretty funny. Thanks for the great explanation on this rule.
I had the greens keeper mow my drive to pieces and then, after I dropped and hit my second shot, I watched him mow that one to bits while I was getting in my cart. Any rules on that?
Twice in the same hole?! He definitely owes you a drink lol. In both cases, your ball has been moved by an Outside Influence. You are then required to replace (not drop) your ball back on it's original spot. Because the ball is now mown to pieces, that would constitute damage and you would be permitted to substitute the ball for a different one. Hope that helps!
Shouldn’t you have marked the ball before picking it up? And can you just “repair” the ball mark, and then just place it on the same spot?
No, to "fixing" prior to the Stroke.
Generally, a Ball would be moved Laterally and is then required to be "Replaced" as close to the Original Position as can be determined under the circumstances.
Jesus…tell me that too many lawyers play golf without telling me too many lawyers play golf.
I know. Crazy right?
Why were u not required to mark ball prior to moving it and shud you not have repaired the indentation?
The indentation shows the position.
You would fix that after playing your Stroke.
What to do when after you place the ball and wind blows it back into the divot?
I really appreciate your comment. That’s a high level question. After taking relief and replacing the ball, if the ball was moved by the wind (natural forces) you would have to play the ball as it lies in the pitch mark. Because the pitch mark that the ball is lying in was not a result of the previous stroke, you couldn’t take embedded ball relief. That would be extremely unlucky
wait why isn't it considered the opponent and their caddy who moved the ball, when they were the one that drove over the ball? What's the definition of an opponent moving the ball? can they only do it with their hand?
Whether it was the opponent moving the ball matters only in match play, which wasn't the case here.
Not sure wearing sunglasses helps with communication… or is that just an image thing (like kneeling on a little towel!)?
Not repair the hole made by the ball & replace there? Then again, the repaired hole would most likely become part of a divot repair, so some extra repair time there.
Inna tournament, maybe it matters. Otherwise you pick it up, clean it and drop/place it.
Is that a cricket or a car alarm in the background?
Can you repair the pitch mark prior to placing the ball?
Jay never answered you. I would say yes. The justification being that you are entitled to the playing conditions you had when the ball originally came to rest.
If another player protested by saying that the pitch mark is not interfering with your new intended lie, swing, or line of play, your answer should be: then there is nothing restricting me from repairing such a pitch mark.
1. If interfering, you can fix it for one reason.
2. If not interfering, you can fix it for another reason.
@@RandsurferYou fix it after the Stroke because you aren't Replacing the Ball here.
On a Putting Green there is no need for Embedded Ball Relief because you are already allowed 2 things: to Mark, Lift, Clean and Replace the Ball; and to Repair any Damage to the Putting Surface.
Simply, No you can't fix that damage because you can't return the Damage to get the "Original Lie". Fix it after your Stroke along with any Divot taken.
the rule is... the doofus buys you a beer :)
I say multiple lol 🍻
what the rule if you hit a soft green with a high ball and your ball go's so deep in to it that over 50% of the ball under the green
In theory what if someone moved the ball while it was rolling/moving what would be done then?
What if it had been match play?
One stroke penalty to the Opponent under 9.5 for causing the ball to move!
excellent!
Thank for the comment!! ⛳️
Intro music killed my ears with headphones on!!
sorry! lol I'll keep the transition more fluid 👍
Well if it’s in the fairway you could pick and replace since it’s technically plugged
Not quite. I explained why it wasn't "embedded" and being in the fairway is irrelevant. If the ball is embedded in the rough, you are still entitled to free relief👍
Honestly, this is the perfect example of why golf rules are so stupid. We all know that if a golf cart runs over a ball and pushes it into the dirt, common sense says you get relief just take it out of the damn hole. The fact that it requires 10,000 different variations of which rules were using, it's just nonsense. And as a result, this is why recreational rounds end up taking 5 hours, because a handful of people want to play the exact way you would play on tour.
Recreational golf doesn’t take 5 hours because of people following the rules
Rec golf takes so long because of gamblers taking forever to putt
@user-rn1br5tq5j i regularly play 3hr30min rounds with 3 other 30 handicappers. I find its the gamblers that slow the game down
So, what you’re saying
Is that you “don’t like rules”, the rules “slow you down”.
It would be fun to interview you for a job on the course. Tell us more about yourself.
If my prospective employer took me violating a rule of golf as the potential for me to violate a rule in my line of work (when it actually matters) then that employer is an idiot.
“Oh he didn’t play it as it lies as a 16 handicapper… my company is in danger”
Seriously shut TF up
This is where things gets interesting… I’m still waiting
This happened in my weekly golf group. The player driving had a grudge against me. Why is his responsibility totally absolved?
The replay also shows that the ball moved forward , as physics would dictate.
What if you were driving the cart?
I would get a 1 stroke penalty under 9.4 for causing my ball to move (even if it was accidental). I would then need to go through with replacing it.
But if the ball was in the rough for example, and I was searching for it when I ran it over, no penalty for accidentally moving it during search. Replace the ball and play on!
Outside agency rule
I wish the guys I play with followed the rules. Any rule.
They’d be different players wouldn’t they lol
You're kneeling down on a towel..lol
Thanks for noticing lol
That mirror flip camera trick at the end is not the love
What are you saying?
when I was in the Army and a group of us would get together for a Sunday outing of Combat Golf, the rules clearly stated that if you got to an opponents ball before they did, anything was fair game, including running over the ball with the golf cart... ball must be played from where it lies, even if placed on top of a beer can or another such device...lighten up... why so serious??? ;)
Sounds like fun. But this channel is dedicated to helping competitive golfers of all abilities understand the nuances of the rules so they can better protect their scorecard.
@@JayRobertsGolf oh goodness me! what was I thinking?!?! after all the years I have spent hacking at this game, I forgot the Prime Directive - There Is No Place For LEVITY In Golf!!! my bad... won't happen again...I shall now slink away, never to return...
We can make noises, etc while an opponent is swinging.
If a golf cart runs over your ball, you get a free drop - of the golf cart driver.
Good info but you left out whether your opponent gets a penalty stroke(s), owes you a beer, or both...
I overlooked your comment, Steve. Sorry about that.
In Stroke Play, there is no penalty to the other player for causing my ball to move. But in Match Play, that player would get one penalty stroke. In both formats, a beer is required as a form of apology 😂
the ball shouldn't be placed closer to the hole?! if you places it in front of the original spot, isn't it closer to the hole?
That's correct. Ball can't be closer to the hole. But before I placed the ball, I indicated the hole direction which was to the left 👍
To cut a long story short, pick the ball outa the hole and carry on 😃 I will make a 5 second video
I agree with the conclusion but let's not pretend for a second that Dexter isn't a natural force.
Play it as it lies. I had to hit it off of Frankenstein's fat foot. Those are the rules
lol. I've been thinking about doing a video about Happy Gilmore and addressing that rule specifically 🤔
In this particular instance the rule of ball embedded can also be applied.
So you weren't listening at 1:18 then??
I'm afraid not. I explained why it can't in the video.
Nice explanation but unfortunately, you end it wrong. As you stated, you have to drop within a club length, not nearer to the hole. Then you drop wrong, it should be done standing up and from knee height, and suddenly you state that it should be nearest to the original location? Anywhere inside a clublenght, not nearer to the hole and on the fairway would suffice…
Hi Gijs, the ball was moved by an Outside Influence. Per 9.6, the ball is to be replaced, not dropped. I didn’t drop, but replaced. Furthermore, the original lie was altered so per 14.2d, you are to find a lie most similar to what the original lie was, up to 1 club length.
Ah yes, the only sport with the rule complexity of Yugioh
No wonder 8 hour rounds, it’s a time out every time there rulings
No chance. Most golfers just drop another ball wherever and move on so I fail to see how the rules (or any rule for that matter) is the culprit of slow play
Question classique lors des formations à l'arbitrage. Ceci dit le pilote de la voiturette n'est pas très malin.
Call Patrick Reed
The next time I’m playing in the Master’s I’ll give a sh*t about this rule until then I’ll move it to a convenient location and hit again.
Just played a steeplechase where I women drove over my ball and I saw it move 6 inches right and into a bad lie. Called the “pro” over and he said if no one else saw it move he doesn’t believe me. Class act piece of trash.
Unfortunately, the golf course pro got this Ruling wrong.
There is a "known or virtually certain" standard for deciding if the ball moved, as well as what caused it to move. As long as it is Known or Virtual Certain (virtually certain = at least 95% probability) that the ball has moved, then the ball is treated has having moved.
In this case, it was Known that the ball moved because you actually watched it happen.
This situation is dictated by you (the player). It doesn't require any other witnesses or even an "agreement" that it moved by anyone else. You should have replaced the ball on the original spot. The pro needs to take a look at Rule 9.2
really ..
Replace the "SO CALLED DRIVER " AND I DON'T MEAN THE GOLF CLUB. THIS TIME
How abt in match play if person A accidentally kicks or walks into the golf ball of his partner B whilst the ball is on the fairway /rough? Same procedure to apply. It was not intentional.
Unfortunately, a Partner isn't considered to be an "Outside Influence", so Rule 23.5b says a Penalty to you under Rule 9.4
Your opponent ran the ball over. That's sabotage. Disqualified. Kick him out. Take his bag and clubs. Banned from golf forever.
It's in the Rules of Golf, one of the appendixes, I believe.
It’s appendix 24bc(3)/1f, LOL
So I guess if you drive over your own ball then you can't take relief because there is no outside influence?
Do I incur a penalty if I'm the one the drove over the ball?
Simple answer but it's important to know why it's a simple answer.
Amen. Analyze the situation and you can connect the dots. Thanks for the comment
Why not just a simple rule to be used if a ball is run over by a cart or maintenance vehicles, or stepped on. Should be quite simple to define these events and make a resolution. It seems gold does not have rules or laws, but only enigmas.
I walked through exactly and and why we get to the ruling based on the rules. So not sure what you are saying
@@JayRobertsGolf I have no problem with what you explained. You explained it well. It is just that the embedded ball rules does not imply even though the ball is embedded and then the moved ball rule takes over. This situation is a ball embedded by a golf cart/maintenance vehicle so why just not 1 rule for this situation. I am not a golfer but it seems this should come under the imbedded ball rule by just adding another sub-rule to the embedded ball rule.
Sooo, after all that, the answer is “ pick up the ball and place it next to the hole it was in “.
Yes 😕 I said it at the end, “It’s a long explanation for a simple procedure”. But, Ive learned that breaking down the why and how serves much better for memory retention. If you know the why and how, you are better able to connect the dots with situations that may be similar but are different. IMO 😁
My friend's ball wasn't run over by a golf cart. He was. There was leg damage and a lawyer.
"Accidental"
He was texting and driving! lol