Drum shells and sound. Important or Hype? Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 15 янв 2018
- Some manufacturers make a great deal of their drum shell design and construction. Does it warrant serious consideration? Does it really make a difference in sound? Is it all hype? How important is the drum shell? I take an honest look at shells and sound. Part 1. Use headphones for the best audio.
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A few years back I picked up an old set Of Dixie drums for $100. I put new Attack heads on all of them and tuned them to my preference. I recorded a couple songs in a recording studio with a friend of mine playing the guitar parts. The studio producer at the board said to me after we laid our tracks, that these drums were the easiest and best sounding drums that he ever recorded. Just sayin'.
As a music producer I can tell you the post processing on instruments can be as transparent or as transformative as you want. What ever the mic picked up is not what you hear in the end. After EQ, compression, gates, envelopes, distortion, delay, reverb... its a completely different sound and any nuance is lost. Then add the rest of the band and the only thing that matters is if the drums cut through a dense mix. Your favorite drummer’s sound could be the $100k dream set or a trash set. You listen with your ears not your eyes. “The name of the game is what does it sound like? I don’t care if you have 9 inch racks, what does it sound like baby?” - Ray Charles
And there you go. Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate your truth. It can only help in cutting through the ultra-hype, especially for the sake of younger players that get all caught up in it.
A producer started saying that the studio I’m playing in for a name artist only use DW the drummers bring in top equipment. I talked to my wife and I already have 4 kits and she supports all I do and we argued about me getting a 10,000 kit of DW until I saw this and she is happy. If I buy a drum set again it’s cheap descent hardware lol.
The initial sound before the microphone capture is important with live sound though. No studio tricks with live performances.
@@mecdrum7 Yamaha’s stage custom sounds amazing for budget kit. But if you love the drums and you’re an adult there’s nothing wrong with investing in your dream kit if it won’t hurt other areas if your life. Some guys pay 40,0000 dollars more for a different front emblem on a car. Some guys spend 30,000 on putting race car parts in a car. Some guys spend 10,000 a year on alcohol and cigarettes. We pay for the consistency, the attention to detail, the bearing edges, the finish, the hardware and lastly the sound when we get a dream kit. The more you love your instrument the more you want to practice. Just never buy it if it’s going to cause you financial problems.
I don't know what you're talking about...the new Placebo line shells from Logical Fallacy drum company are totally better than their Baseline shells.
Well said.
Love your videos..
Some people can't handle the truth .
Thank you. You know how it is - red pill, blue pill.
Bottom line by a kit that you love the finish on and believe in the build quality.
MY Tama Imperialstar (all poplar) complete kit is being delivered today via FedEx. I almost ordered the (all maple) Gretsch Catalina which would have cost twice as much. $750 vs.$1,500, after getting all the hardware, etc...I saved alot by ordering the (all poplar) kit. And what you are teaching from your experience confirms my inclination. AND I FEEL FINE!!!
Just remember one thing. Imperial star rack toms are shell mounted. In all the pics I have seen of Catalinas, the toms are isolation mounted. They will render more low end as a result, and more sustain. You can add iso mounts to aid that on the Tamas at a later date if you want to. You may want to use a heavier batter head to add some low end. Single ply, 10 mil heads the drums probably come with, may not give you the full tone you desire. You'll have to go 12 mil or dble ply, which may be the sound you prefer, anyway.
You'll also want to think about isolation tips for the floor tom legs to allow the drum to resonate fully. Floors tend to drain resonance from the drum when hard tipped legs sit on them. Depends on the floor but, most will do that.
Those are the details I mention so much that make sense when purchasing drums. Twice the money? Not when you can get a couple iso mounts for the toms and new tips for the FT.
Enjoy your new drums.
Great video! You really speak my mind!
I've got the same impression over the last few years when I got more into vintage drums. They all sound great, if bearing edges etc are all right or recut. In my mind the only true "breakthrough" in drum sound in the last twenty+ years was the introduction of suspension mounts on the toms. now the big manufacturers are all about super expensive finishes, ply hocuspocus, die cast hoops and more and more elaborate hardware (although i think that many drums sound better and more alive with regular triple flanges hoops)...oh, i could go on and on...But to conclude, I've completely lost interest in new drums, let alone buying a new drum set...
as you said since the invention of rims modern drums have had basically nowhere to go to sound any better.
I tend to agree with this - I worked for a drum company and we got to play around with all sorts of shell materials; some of the best shells were made from old bits of pine from a set of shelving we trashed. Indeed one of those snares made from this was sold to a very well known drummer who had an endorsement from a major drum company -so I wont say who. But, he loved it!
Point 2, because the tighter the grain the less absorption of air pressure into the wood grain, explains why the Recording Custom and early Tour series drums were coated in lacquer on the interior.
How so?
You just spoke with candor! Even though each company focused on wood properties, is just like you said. There are minor sound properties to each wood type and they all sound the same. I may get some hate from this, the reality is the sound of the kit is cymbals, head tuning as well as head type, and the drummer itself. How the kit is built-hardware-has a great influence in the durability. So much hate for poplar and "cheap" sets is beyond reproach.
I just stumbled on your series regarding this topic. I agree with most of your conclusions, and wondered if I was just not 'getting' it. I just switched to Aquarian Performance 2 heads and finally got the sound I hear on recorded drums. The heads make a huge difference, but I swear poplar wood just hits me so much better than other woods. I have had nice Yamaha, Rogers, and Tama maple kits after upgrading from Exports. I'm back to 2024 Exports with poplar/mahogany and a 2024 Mapex Venus poplar kit. The Performance 2 heads on those kits make my big toe shoot straight up in my boot!! Thank you for taking the time and effort on these videos, as well as the very inspiring drumming ability, you are a monster behind those drums.
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words. Over the years many comments like yours have been stated and people wonder about differences in tone.
The point of the series is obviously about manufacturer ultra-hype about their proprietary shells and superior sound and the nature of heads contributing far more to any drum sound but, as I stated early on, a drum does vibrate as a unit. The weight of the drum, via shell density, lug weight and hoop weight all put stress on mounting features that help or hinder unit vibration. So, with variations of mounting hardware, company to company, all the variations can contribute to the constant display of nuances and subtleties I always mention.
You mention 5 brands/model lines and each drum would have its shell density, unit weight and style of mounting involved.
The bottom line becomes, can those nuances get heard in the midst of a band? No. They get drowned out by the frequency range battle that takes place. Rooms/venues and mics and electronics come into play and then EQ gets messed with and filters and all, and now, whatever differences the original acoustic nature of the sound, is history.
Those parameters and facts are known by all manufacturers. But, to sell products, they have to disregard it all and market and make ads and catalogs read like they sell the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and you've found the ark of the covenant.
Everybody understands the need for the advertising hype. It has just gotten nonsensical and ridiculously confusing for consumers who read it all and scratch their heads and buy drums they pay a boatload for and they don't really sound better or significantly different from other things they have had. Like you, they change heads and voila! Some heads just work better for their ears, with the variations of unit parameters. Do those prized differences really translate live, within a band or on recordings, in truly significant ways? I do not believe so and have yet to see or hear evidence of that.
So, it comes down to cosmetics, hardware packages, wallets and purpose for the set: something people set up at home or have to take on the road?
Thanks for watching.
@15:15 This hurt and thank you. I'm completely new to drums and looking to buy a kit but I was concerned on what to buy. Very glad I watched this video. Thank you for posting!
Thank you for watching. I'm grateful to be a help. That's my purpose. Do some homework, maybe watch the rest of the series, and enjoy your purchase when the time comes. :-)
@@REFondrums Honestly it's kind of disgusting how much lying there is in the music industry just because they know people will buy into the superstition they created. I'm a guitar and bass player; I used to believe woods mattered for electric guitar and bass however, someone was kind of enough to point out pickups are not microphones. It was like getting hit in the head with a bat but then I started thinking about it why wouldn't I believe that woods for electric guitars and basses mattered?
I had been told that since I first got interested in them by the manufacturers and other musicians told me the same thing so I assumed it was true. However having had that experience lead me to question the same thing about drums and fortunately I stumbled upon this video observing comparisons. I now listen for tonal changes only on my computer monitor. My philosophy now is if I can't hear the difference through some crappy computer speakers then there isn't enough of a difference to justify changing.
Watched your second video doing this although there were nuances between them that were different if you were to put them into a mix and ask me which ones they were I couldn't tell the difference if my life depended on it or at least I would doubt it. To any guitar or bass players reading this change your strings, your pickups, your scale length, your practice time, and electronics not your woods.
Thank you and I hope this video blows up telling newcomers and veterans alike the truth.
@@Piston1776 Many people have commented on the same discussion that takes place with guitars and bass, and many others saying this marketing condition exists with almost everything now. Really sad state of affairs. That said, let me know what you decided to buy and how it works out.
@@REFondrums Will do! and again THANK YOU! 😀😁🤘
Absolute truth you speak. Thank you wise drummer! You are on point and no one can truly deny from experience. Are there “quality” differences in materials like hardware, chrome, etc? Yes, but ya nailed it. The roto Tom’s as you point out prove your point without need to question. Thx for inner standing & sharing truth. Much of drum market and in fact most markets- is making profits with much trickery involved. Drum on. Subbed here.
Ps. I played on a set of ford drums once at a studio recording session and they were pure quality!! That cool ford badge too. I called them the Ferrari of all drum sets. Pure class and quality craftsmanship. Black shells with cool f yellow badge. ❤
Hi! For me, new interesting thing to hear, about what effects the pitch/tone of the drum. And the thing is that i'm right now studying "fine carpentry" and my dream is to build drums, especially snaredrums. And I've been wondering witch type of wood I should use. My thoughts is an deep and low pitched sounding snare. what should I think about to get that kind of characteristic sound?
Thanks for watching.
A lot goes into making a snare drum and final sound. Watch the videos on snare drums to get an idea of similarities, regardless of shell material. You'll see them in the playlist. 12 and 13, iirc.
Assuming you will make a stave shell or stacked block shell, the harder the wood, and the thicker it is, in principle, the higher the pitch of the shell, and the more volume it will project. You might expect a softer wood, like Spruce, would make a huge difference. Not really, if Pine can be a testimony to that. But, again, so many subtleties and nuances that just get lost when cymbals start cranking and a band is around you. If you make your own veneered ply shell, same principles apply. Same for steam bent plank.
How you tension your heads and the heads you choose to use, and making sure they seat well on your bearing edges, will make a far greater difference for sound than a shell you make. That has been my experience. Shells are about density, and density effects how sound waves move around in the cylinder but, it's the heads and tuning that create your sound and pitch, not the shell.
Like I suggested, check out the videos on snare drums and see some vital comparisons. Actually, the whole series addresses the topic in greater detail. Part 1 just scratches the surface.
You might want to watch the Gretsch series of videos on players choosing a snare drum from there line-up of really impressive instruments. Very interesting presentations that might help you get some ideas.
This is pure facts!!! There are slight differences in expensive drums trying to maintain the resonance and sustain but once hardware gets on it and you mount it, you loose so much. You can test it even with just mounting the drums. To my ears, once mounted, you kill alot of the sustain and resonance by just mounting them. It's part of the reason why I don't mount to the bass drum because it kills the sound of the toms and the bass too much. I do agree that more expensive drums use better hardware that preserves sustain so they will naturally sound better.
I put little stock in the wood type. Mostly the quality of the hardware and the finish. The heads are what really changes the drum sound. A good drummer can play on a $500 kit tuned correctly and sound great.
Trey Ballard I came to the same conclusion. What makes top tier drums sound good is hardware (I.e. solid stuff that doesn’t rattle ). From there it’s tuning and head selection. At this point in my opinion it has fuck all to do with wood species. I just made a 13x7 snare drum from an old 90’s pearl export Tom. It’s poplar I believe. Hand sanded the bearing edge and snare beds and upgraded the hoops to die cast. It’s honestly the best sounding snare I have. The reason being the Shell was well made and had a clear fundamental pitch when struck.
Ray do you recommend me changing to isolation mounts if I have have the rims style mount on some of my toms and isolation on others? I didnt realize in my last comment it was the rims mount that was causing the drum to decay quicker.
Do you mean R.I.M.S. mounts? They ARE isolation mounts and should increase sustain. They are the original iso ring-mounts. I don't believe you will find a better iso mount, comparatively speaking. Maybe better prices for something else, idk.
And Ray does this drum shell material not mattering concept extend itself to things like acoustic guitars and speakers? I'm guessing it would if you consider what you've discussed and how it relates to physics?
@@renedominguez9882 I'm not saying shells do not matter. I just believe what differences are apparent because of shell density, etc., are way over hyped by the manufacturers. And yes, the guitarist I have recorded with in recent years says the same debate takes place among guitarists. He believes like I do. Differences may exist but, they are nuances, and all the electronics, stomp boxes and stuff make any variations in body woods pretty moot.
I'd have to say I largely agree with you. Its about time somebody put this out there. I use strictly Ambassadors because I'm used to them but I might throw on a 2 ply just to clam the mids down a little and dedicate that one drum to the warm pile. Nice job man!! I've been laughing at Good for a long time now.🤣
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. I tend to focus on snares and cymbals. I couldn't give a crap what my toms are made of, as long I've decent cymbals a a decent snare I'm good to go. If the toms have decent heads then I'm happy. I don't subscribe to the whole idea of tapping the shell to hear pitches either. This is all marketing bs. They even put a paper tag in the shell telling you the pitch of the drum. You blindfold test these guys and they would probably tell you some MIJ Tom made of firewood sounds better than some fancy, exotic wood drum.
And this is why us drummers usually have a big collection of snares and cymbals and not toms
@@bobloblaw8660 exactamundo, brother man.
Well I think the shell size is actually really important. From my experience the longer the shell the longer the sound lasts and it's warmer. Shorter shells have more attack and the sound is shorter. I would have to say that some higher end drums sound the same as entry level but not all of them. But it's not a 3000$ difference by any means. But I totally agree that heads are your main sound.
Yes, I speak to the issue of deeper shells in the series and their effect on tone; creating a slightly punchier, slower response. Of course, that is a matter of simple physics that any drum takes on regardless of the company that manufactures it. No marketing hype involved, per se.
I never heard one person ever say
I wish I never bought these DW Collector series drums , My Tama Imperial Stars feel and sound just as good.
Read all the replies in the series. Lots of commenters make those kinds of statements about all different manufacturers' greater and lesser lines.
You also miss what I constantly say about how drums are mounted, which is a hardware issue, not a manufactured plywood drum shell issue.
I would not expect Imperialstars to sound as good as a Collector's series just because of the mounting difference. Change the mounting, same shell sizes, same heads, same tuning, all things being equal, the Tama shells next to the DW, I'd like to hear any dramatic difference. I am comparing apples to apples, in principle.
lol
It's known as 'Choice-supportive bias' - a customer needs to justify their outlay in order not to feel bad about spending so much on something that may in truth have negligible difference to another product, or worse, be outright inferior to another product. What you see in the drum forums is one gigantic post-purchase rationalisation.
Very interesting insight. I appreciate that.
Well said!
Bob Armstrong (RIP) had two Pearl Masters set up in his studio, one left the other right handed configuration. There was a resonance with one kit that the other didn’t have.
As a young drummer I switched from Pearl to Sonor and when the band were practicing the (bassist’s) neighbours (a good 50 meters / yards away), complained that all they were aware of was the ‘thud’ of the (acoustic) bass drum.
I was testing a Brady Kit in a shop and although I didn’t buy it, my wife asked my son (who was about 5 years old, at the time), “What were they like?”, he said, “the earth was moving.” My go-to setting is not a loud drummer.
The same shop lined up: a 14” copper AZ and a Ludwing snare, a Brady block 13” inch snare, Brady 14” ply snare and Longo 14” walnut snare the differences were clearly discernible (and none of the above are King’s new robes).
You are clearly very knowledgeable, and I’ll listen to what you have to say about snare, next video up.
There is quite a bit of repetition in your video that distract from some real pearls of wisdom.
As you can see by the many comments throughout the series (16 videos so far), a lot of people place anecdotal testimony here. We all have it. Nothing wrong with it. Much in the way of exact opposite from yours from players and studio pros. What I tried to do was deal with empirical evidence; things people can see and here by way of comparison and presentation. It is interesting no one really challenges what they see and hear in the videos. Nuances and subtleties exist which I repeat constantly.
I do not believe those nuances and subtleties warrant the super-hype companies now place on their shells when it comes to sound, especially when it comes to price tags for such sound. That is the basis for the series. It was not always this way in the industry. Major changes have taken place in the marketing of drums. I consider it a shame and a sham. I try to show the evidence with each presentation.
I also so have to admit the same for my own presentation style or whatever. I go with Lincoln on that: all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time but, never all the people all the time. :-)
Thank you for watching. I appreciate it.
I think I'm with you on this.
I've always had cheap kits and it's definitely the heads that make a difference.
I've got an old mapex q kit for jamming and with coated emporers on the toms and PS 3 on both sides of the bass drum , its awesome.
I recently bought my first ever new kit , a shell pack , and it's in the wrap colour i like , has black hardware and i bought solid cymbal stands and assorted hardware in black and i love it.
I have colortone heads batter and reso PS3 on the bass and it sounds great.
I have an assortment of snare drums i can use with both kits .
Also bought some high quality cymbals 2nd hand .
Cymbals and snare drum make all the difference.
Thanks for the video mate 👍
Thanks for watching. I appreciate it.
@Jack Blakeney maybe buy an old second hand kit of some sort and upgrade it . Its well worth it.
I sold my mapex q kit and am using an old kit i bought. I stripped all the old wrap and stained the shells.
I'm using Aquarian heads on that kit and it also sounds great. And I get comments on how good it looks.
I used it for a live show and it worked a treat. 👍🤘
The drumkit that made me rethink about this is the Tama Fat Spruce. Spruce is softer than Basswood and poplar and, still, the people will say that the Spruce is better than Basswood because Tama made a High-End Spruce kit, with a wood that is technically twice softer than the asian mahogany used by Pearl.
Spruce is identical to Poplar on the Janka scale. They both have a density rating of 29, at 422 and 432 lbs respectively. Basswood is a touch softer at 26, 367 lbs. nowhere near enough difference to create any noticeable frequency enhancements in a cylinder of the same thickness. So, yes, a company claiming special sound characteristics for Spruce vs. Poplar or other woods of the same density class, is off. "Asian Mahogany" covers around 120 different species of wood that are classed as "Luan," often stated as "Meranti; woods that are used for lower end drum shells, that does list as more than twice as hard, at 908 lbs.
Luthiers love using Spruce for string instruments. It's a far cry from gluing 6 or 8 plies together for a drum shell, 5 - 7mm thick.
Having heard Spruce drums, the slight nuances of softer tone as a reflective surface in the cylinder might make a sonic difference in an acoustic Jazz setting. Beyond that, once mics and PA or recording software get involved, with a band, differences fall away fast. Even Tama claims Spruce can be successfully used in Jazz, R&B, Blues, Ballads and Rock. If they increased the size options you could put any genre in the list.
This is really what I try to address in the series. The marketing ultra-hype used in the drum manufacturing business about proprietary shells has become so ridiculous it's embarrassing, especially when the companies state their drums have a wide tuning range. Shells don't get tuned. Heads do. Any well-made head sitting on a properly crafted bearing edge will have a wide tuning range. It has nothing to do with wood species or shell wall.
Not trying to diss Tama here but, reality check: facts matter.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
I love you man! 35 years drumming here. Something I've known on a gut level for a long time but have not heard expressed so succinctly. Thanks!!!!!
I appreciate it. Thank you.
Hes so full of shit and bullshit
What's that thing in front of your base drum? I've seen them from time to time but don't know
It's just a 5x24 bass drum I use with my tabletop set. I had no place to put it at the time and just set it in front of the main bass drum. Some refer to it as a passive woofer bass drum, as it supposedly enhances the low end frequency coming off the main kick.
Unless you are referring to the drum dial on top of that drum, a popular head tension/tuning device.
I’ve been able to hear the difference in a shootout video where the maple Tom had more low end than the birch which sounded the same but with slightly less low end. The difference is basically negligible though and it mostly comes down to having a solid kit with the sizes and heads you prefer.
I agree
I have a pdp kit and a sonor kit. Same sizes, the Sonor with the same heads sound way better every time. The sound of the drum is not just the heads.
Also Sonor makes their shells different and makes them smaller so the head makes more contact with the shell. This makes a difference as well. The difference is not astronomical and if you’re a hobby drummer or one is than yeah don’t buy high end drums. But for those that drums are their passion in life they should go for it. High end kits also come with better mounts hardware etc which all can aid in the tone as well. You could really do this with anything in life. People pay 40,000 extra dollars for cars where the difference is the name. So paying an extra 1,000 for drums once in a drummers life to have an amazing kit is not the end of the world.
It does make a difference. My 1980 Sonor Phonics, beech wood kit sounds way better than my Mapex Saturn IV maple/walnut wood kit. It’s not even close!! I do need to have my bearing edges recut on the Mapex kit. It’s just wrong that drum manufacturers don’t care more for the quality of their bearing edges! I really appreciate your videos I’ve learned a lot! Thank you!
I've been trying to find some kind of eco friendly composite material that's easy to work with, and wondering how it would sound.
Having made drums from all kinds of materials, I have come down to the simple fact that if the shell walls maintain rigidity, and you can seat the heads on a decent bearing edge, you'll achieve good sound.
Other videos in this series show some examples. I have fun turning just about anything into a drum. Not toys but, actual drums, regardless of how simple the end result.
I'd need you to define "eco-friendly, composite material," as you understand the terms, to have a better idea of what would make suitable drum shells. I'm assuming you have shop/tool skills to accommodate the task?
If you watch more videos in the series you may get some ideas but, you'll find out that sound from the heads, sound waves from them, and the moving, rebounding air column within the chamber (unless it's single headed drums), are enhanced some or diminished some by the density of the chamber wall, including single-headed drums with a sound wave/air column just traveling one way. The more density, the livelier the sound, though the parameters for that are generally nuances and subtleties affected also by choice of heads used, sticks, player touch, etc. So, bottom line, a set of drums can be made from anything shapeable and glueable, that can hold its shape under tension, including anything already in a tube/chamber shape.
Eco-friendly, composite, renewable materials might include Bamboo flooring you can cut staves or stacked blocks from (needing tools for 'necessary' rounding). That seems the most logical material to use. But, again, you would have to define the terms, to know how broad a spectrum of materials exist to choose from. :-)
Love your vid. I think pretty much the same. Still. Question: When you listen to Simon Phillips with his Artstar 2 during the 80ies / early 90ies compared to today's Star and Starclassic with clearly thinner and shallower shells, why do you think does he sound so different?
Thanks for watching. Shallow shells will always sound a little different from deeper shells, depending on the depth differences, one drum to another but, that isn't a proprietary thing manufacturers super-hype. Everybody has shell depth variations to sell.
I like the feel of shallow drums, and the overall tonal character of sound waves moving more quickly between the heads. It's a livelier sound. Deeper shells produce a punchier, more throaty or thuddy sound. But, change the heads on shallow drums and you can get the same basic thing.
As far as Simon, you'd have to give me some examples to listen to. As much as I enjoy watching him, I really wouldn't know things he's done from the 80's/90's vs. 2000's, save for that multi-drummer video he did in Germany with Louie, and some other players. I forget the name of the video (super drummers or something like that) but, yeah, iirc, the drums he played then were very deep, full length lugs, tom brackets mounted on the shells, which all go to dry out the sound and lose some resonance, etc. Today he's using isolation mounts, small lugs, and the shallower drums will sound a lot more alive. I'm going to assume, not really knowing, his drums today are composed of denser, hard wood, as well, if he's using Bubinga, which contributes to more volume and more frequencies reflected, put off by the heads. Shell wall density makes a difference, either by large, wood specie variation, or shell wall thickness but, again, looking at what most plywood shells are made of, and looking at the Janka scale for wood specie hardness, there just isn't that much difference until you get to exotic wood species from Australia and Asia, or Africa and S.A.. Bubinga is now a protected species so, no more of those. Talk about some collector's items.
Great info. Thanks for posting
I love how thick shelled drums hit you right in the chest. If I have to drop some more bones to get that sound then so be it.
influence has the interior finish. The smoother the harder the sound. That is the way Gretsch had their drums sound better, more lively. They used soft woods back in the day.......easier to bend and staying true with the glue they had.
I found you by accident and loved how you go at this like a physicist! I've played now for 60 years and I too don't believe all the hype. Every time I hear the hype, I think of the Mel Brooks movie Spaceballs....merchandising, moichendaising...where the REAL money from the movie is made! I would debate a bit on just the sound coming solely from the head. I even noticed in your vid that the birch shell seemed to be louder than the others. But the sound, the total sound, is a combination factor for me. Thanks for the vid...I just subscribed! I do love 3 ply Slingerlands...
If you watch the rest of the series made over the years, my basic issue is not the nuances and subtleties of sound created by the total unit, as well as room acoustics, sticks and player touch, and beyond that, mics, PA or recording environments; software, etc., etc. It's, as you say, moichandise and marketing put out by manufacturers that is so problematic, especially for younger players.
I do take the stand that any and all nuances and subtleties one may hear in any drum, from any manufacturer, are basically moot in a band context. The acoustic properties of any drum just have too much to compete with and get buried. Plus, it can all get modified with sound reinforcement equipment, live or by software in the recording environment.
The marketing hype not only lies; it leaves common sense and facts of the modern music world of live and recorded sound out of the picture.
I understand the world of advertising and its necessities but, the ultra-hype of drum manufacturers has become sickening to me. And it just keeps getting worse, even since I made that first video, ultimately the first in the series of 25. Will it ever stop? Unlikely.
Anyway, thanks for watching. I appreciate it.
A related perspective: For most snare drums and many toms... the SURFACE AREA of the drum heads is a larger total surface than that of the shell. AND the heads can be tensioned to produce a range of tones. For the reasons mentioned in the video as well as the surface area factor, it stands to reason and in practice that is the heads that are the major driver of what is heard, assuming the heads can interface well with the shell and that the hardware is competently manufactured and installed. As well, none of the wooden, metal, acrylic, (etc.) drum shells can be variably tensioned like the heads can be.
I buy the cheapest, focusing primarily on appearance and size. I bought an open box pearl export for about $300 and a Mapex Mars for about $500. The 5.5 export snare sound just as good as the 6.5 inch pearl masters maple snare I've bought years ago when I was still under the impression that the more you spend, the better the sound...
Go Buy A Real Snare Drum
John Bonham used plastic drums for cripe-peet, and his drums sounded incredible! Nobody will dispute that. I play expensive drums only because I like the more options of dimensions (i.e. 7 x 12, 12x15, 13x16, 15x24, etc. And the look... expensive drums look awesome!
Actually I will dispute that. I think acrylic sounds like poop.
@@ghiblinerd6196 You're probably right.
@@ghiblinerd6196 But, you realize that is totally subjective, right? To others they sound great, and frankly, hardly any different than plywood drums, and by the time you surround them with a band, who can tell the difference by the time mics, PA systems and outboard equipment, or studios and software get involved? I hear acrylic drums sounding kind of dry next to plywood drums but, look how many players mute their drums with all kinds of heads, tape, sticky stuff, and all the rest.
Sound is totally subjective. There cannot be a "bad" sounding drum. There can only be your sound and another's preferable sound.
The smaller Premier shell was the Soundwave series. The modern Premier equivalent is the Genista series. You are bang on with your reasoning (excuse the pun)
What kind of finish are the drums in the back? Looks like yellow gold over ash but I wanna be sure because they look nice
Those are stacked plywood-ring shells, just finished in a natural gloss oil. The full size set can be seen here -
ruclips.net/video/Z0bKK64SO9w/видео.html
@@REFondrums awesome thanks! I was curious what kind of wood the shells are made from though?
Nvm I understand now. Thanks again!
I seen on Facebook were you can buy from other members a very nice set bran new with cym.100.00 dallors very nice set I gonna get one this week
In the last couple of years since I began this series of videos, people ask me when this ultra-hype about manufactured proprietary plywood drum shells began, if it was not always this way. I have stayed away from those specifics because almost every company does it now. As it happens, I came upon some really interesting information a few weeks ago. Go to my website: drumsinhisheart.weebly.com and go to the Thoughts /OpEd Page 2, and scroll down to #133 - A Little History On Drum Shell Super-Hype. If you know anything about the drum manufacturing industry, you'll see your answer how this all began.
So I am looking into a bop\jazz kit for rehearsals and smaller venues. It’s Yamaha stage custom which is birch versus the new Sonor AQX poplar. I like the fact that Sonor makes all of them in Germany. What’s your opinion.
As stated throughout the series, I have no interest in shell wall species. I have come to disregard all the ultra-hype about shells and sound. I'd be concerned with drum sizes, light hardware, and what kind of heads would work best for the music and venues I'd be playing in. And I'd care about a finish I like. Plywood species and any particular sound to listen for? No.
If you want German craftmanship, go with the Sonor. I'd consider that before I ever considered wood species.
@@REFondrums thanks. Yeah talked to the wife and she approves the Sonor.
I have a few Tama Rockstars that i enjoy playing daily..But im always reading that these are inferior entry level drums and i should upgrade..your video has changed my mind about upgrading ..
I have the same kit and I love it. Sound way better than some of the new kits.
What you say is true. Years ago came across Ivor Arbiter Flats. This particular kit had no shell on the snare. Just a cage or frame for the heads. It sounded like a good snare...with no shell at all. Just the skins reacting off each other. I knew then that something was rotten in the state of Denmark, so to speak. Now I think of it like Wine Tasting, just a pretty but meaningless little dance people do so they can have a job. Imagine if we worked toward actually making things better, not just making up magical qualities around things that are basically determined by the availability of certain machines and manufacturing parameters. Thankyou!!! Great work
I appreciate that. Thank you. Since making these observations it has become plain with other types of goods and manufacturing, as well. It's one thing to advertise a product. It's another to state things that cannot be substantiated by methodical proof.
Thanks for watching.
I totally agree - Pretty much any cylinder with one or two good heads mounted with proper tuning is responsible for the wide range of sounds from any drum, not so much the more expensive overhyped materials and construction methods.
🥁💫🥁
I'm very interested in this subject - perhaps a little too interested. And I agree sometimes people focus too much on something like shell material instead of bearing edge/heads/tuning/dimensions and other variables. But if you give me a 3ply poplar drum vs a Tama Arstar cordia I can guarantee you they feel and sound different. Even an Artstar Maple vs Artstar Corida (same dimensions) is noticeable. And it depends on what you need to get from it. I've generally found thinner shells sound more exciting at low volumes but kind of "max out" when you lay into them. And thicker shells are the opposite. I have also taken a 1970's Pearl rack tom, given it a few layers of polyuerathane on the inside and the volume increased noticeably. My Ludwig Stainless steel rack tom sounds different to a Rogers Maple tom. So I think the shell can play a role for sure.
I speak of shell wall density throughout the series, which can definitely effect the sound waves and concussive force in the air column when the drum is struck, thereby giving a "feel" that can differentiate between some materials. Density effects volume, for sure.
All in all, in our modern world, all the ultra-hype that exists about proprietary plywood shells is meaningless with drums passing through electronics and software. Volume is meaningless. Tones are meaningless. All of what is said a shell contributes, which realistically are nuances and subtleties of difference that acoustically, in the context of a band cannot be distinguished, can all be flatlined or enhanced by turning knobs or moving sliders, etc.
What it comes down to is quality. Quality does not necessarily affect sound. Cheap lugs don't necessarily affect sound. Cheap wraps, the same. Low quality Mylar certainly can, and that is why I constantly mention: Change the heads, change the sound of the drum.
Things like tension/tuning are totally subjective. There is no such thing as a bad sounding drum because there is no universally accepted sound that is "the" sound to strive for. Hence, all the drum heads that go from wide open to muted tones, to actual thud when it comes to bass drums.
As I demonstrate throughout the series, there are no significant differences between typical, manufactured plywood shells and sound produced, using the same heads on drums. Where there is a truly audible difference, shell-wall density will make the lion's share of that difference.
Perhaps in the environment of an acoustic gig in a small Jazz club things can be important but, even there, more so the sticks a player uses and his touch on a specifically chosen head will count more than anything special touted by companies about their proprietary drum shells.
Thanks for watching. I appreciate it.
This a very interesting viewpoint, and one with which I largely agree. I have toyed with the idea of changing my drums, the bottom line is (a) the cost would be prohibitive as no one would give me what my set is worth (b) my drums are as round as they're ever going to be with nicely cut bearing edges, so, save for the heads and hardware, there's little difference between my refurbished early 1970's Pearl Wood fiberglass and many others (c) it is more WANT than NEED.
Three very astute reasons. Thanks for watching.
My Rogers Big R kit is all Keller Shells! Keller is Killa!
Check out 12x8 tom sound. They have 6 SC hell and like you said they pretty much sound the same. Different woods
I just was on a site for a drum store listening to kits... And yeah, randomly skipping around aside from snare drums and cymbals I didn't hear a whole lot of difference between the kits.
Thank you for making this video, I know I appreciate it.
You're welcome. Thank you for tasking the time to watch. I appreciate that.
Please educate yourself, hes a moron
Not sure how I missed your channel. I've been preaching your message for years now and many people that are too hung up on fairy tales don't like it. Usually they don't push the subject too far when they realize they don't know the basics of drum sound. The sound is in the heads. A drum shell is a carrier for the head and allows the head to do its job. Keep speaking the truth.
Yes it’s like the heads are the speakers and you want the shell to do nothing. You don’t want the shell to absorb any energy because that will decrease resonance/ sustain. A hard thick shell that doesn’t absorb the heads sound waves will have more resonance? My question is what is the difference between sustain and resonance? How long the drum rings out? Also you want the inside of the drum to be smooth as possible because the sound waves or air pressure will be absorbed if it’s soft like
Take a shot everytime he picks up that drum shell
Thank you for the video whic I totally agree. On a slight separate argument, is there a different in sound with a different depth of the shell? In my opinion and based on my experience yes. Someone says that air takes longer to go from batter head to resonant head and this causes negative or positive resonance. Question: is there a "perfect" size for a drum shell? a perfect alignment and correspondence between diameter and depth? I'm sure you know a lot more than others.. thanks ciao
Shell depth certainly affects the outcome of a drum's sound. I don't mention it much in the series because depth is not proprietary. Manufacturers can cut tubes to any length they want. They can't patent or super-hype shell depth.
Length generally adds slight enhancement of lower frequencies inch by inch but, consider traditional floor toms which are, by design, square shells. Nobody really thinks of their tone being subject to their depth. Companies began to shorten them by a couple inches and we notice some differences. I have been mounting "floor toms" in snare stands for 25 years now. 7x14, 8x16, 9x18, 10x20; variations on that theme. I place them in line with 4x8, 5x10, 6x12, 6.5x13... I like the feel, the punch, and the livelier character, drum to drum, all the way around the set. That's personal preference.
Sound is subjective. There is no bad sounding drum because there is no standard for the sound of a good drum. Some like wide open sound, others like heavily muted sound, and others somewhere in between. So, there can be no perfect size for a drum shell. Nor is there a perfect way to mount drums. Nor are there perfect heads to put on them, or perfect sticks to play them with. Everything is subjective based on personal taste in sound, and the music the drums will be part of.
Whatever sound you like is the sound you work out. I'll play a 10x12 if I have to but, I'd much rather play a 6x12 or 8x12. I like the feel of the air column between the heads and the rebound it affords; I like the faster response; I like the brighter tone, and I also use single-ply clear heads. Someone wants a tubbier, drier, more dense sound. They use a 10x12 or even a 12x12 and use twin-ply coated heads.
It's all personal choice.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it.
@@REFondrums Oh thank you very very much. Your extensive and complete reply not only answers to my doubts but relax me confirming we are all different and nothing is the right way but ours, what we feel is ours.
I'm in love with acryl drums despite I never had one. I only quickly tried in a drum shop and I just liked what I heard. So now I decided to purchase some acryl naked shells and make my own kit stealing hoops and lugs from another old kit I have.
I need to decide the depths so I'll go with 7x10 - 7x12 - 10x14 and 12x20 (all Remo Ambassador batters and Remo Diplomat on reseonants whhich i normally use), this is mainly because I like to keep my rack toms as flat and low as possible and because I prefer attach rather than sustain. Seing yours they probably still appear deep, however estetically I prefer little deeper shells.
By the way, thank you for all your videos on the 'legend' that material changes the sound. A friend of mine, a drum luthier, always says 'there are no good or bad sounding woods or materials, there are only good or bad sounding kits'. Ciao
Just the night before i saw this video, i was watching a video of some guy playing roto toms, and they sounded really good, and i put a comment asking if a drum even needs a body (shell), however i used to play in a band, and i used someone elses kit, they were lower priced yamahas, and they had no tone or sustain no matter how hard i hit them, I think the wood must make some difference, but nobody's gonna hear the difference between a $600 kit and a $5000 kit on there car radio
A low end Yamaha is used in the second video. You'll hear it has tone and sustain. I just hold the toms to strike them. I also redid the bearing edges on a few of the toms to achieve a better seating on the edges. The shell material really has little to do with the sound you'll hear. Other videos in the series show more evidence of that.
A lot of low end drums (not all these days), will generally be shell mounted, no isolation mounts or isolation leg tips, come with lower quality heads, and have fast, easy to produce bearing edges which do not allow the heads to seat correctly. You lose tone and sustain.
While I do not ever state there are no differences between stock low end drums, mid-level, and high end drums (there are), plenty of mid-level sets produce the same sound as high end drums, and low end kits can be modified to produce full tone and sustain, depending on what you have to work with and what can be purchased to improve things.
Thanks for watching.
You.re doing some kool stuff bro.
Fact that this man has to even have this conversation most people don't even know how to tune their drums let alone softness sharpness flatness that's instinctive for your sounds that being said if he picks that blankety blank drum up one more time and anally sets it back on top of the other shell I'll scream
LOL. I think you're the third of fourth person to comment on that and I'm sure that represents many more.
It's pretty involuntary. Has to do with an area of the brain known as the Broca, in the frontal lobes. Some people use their hands a lot, or hold things when they speak. It helps them to focus and concentrate more. On the other hand, some people are freaked out by that, more than others. Drives them crazy.
I'll not be changing, nor will you. :-)
Thanks for watching.
I’ve often wondered, over the years, why don’t makers bevel ONLY the outside for the Bearing Edge so that, say, 14” really IS 14”....?
Just Sayin’
Technically, no shell is 14," or whatever size stated. They are generally 13 7/8" or somewhere in that area. Shells are smaller than stated. The drum heads measure out correct when you measure the apex of the head collar. That allows the heads to seat better. There is also the issue of drum wraps. If a shell were exactly 14" in diameter, adding a wrap would make the shell larger. Manufacturing shell sizes from plywood took that into account because wraps were the common finish on drums back then.
Also, if the desire is to have the widest possible shell diameter at the edge, the INSIDE of the shell would get the full routered edge and leave the outside edge alone, which is often done on less expensive drums because it's faster, and time equals money in manufacturing. The problem is, that edge rarely allows a head to seat correctly, unless the shell is under-sized even more, which some companies do manufacture, like Premier. Also Evans began making heads with a slightly different collar shape to give that edge a better seating. That edge is the best one for sustain.
The other issue is shell wall width. If you have a 1/4" thick shell and just router a small bevel, say 1/16" on the outside, the drum head may buzz sitting on the flat surface left untouched.
While I agree that marketing overemphasizes the differences, there is no way that a shell type and shell construction doesn’t affect the sound. Part of what you hear is the shell ringing and so it contributes to the sound. Among well made similar wood shells it can be difficult to hear much difference (all else equal) but to compare a thin brass shell to a thick wood shell, there is distinct difference.
Bear in mind, the series addresses hype in the industry regarding plywood shells, though all shell materials can be included to one degree or another. I'm not aware of much in the way of metal drum sets. I have heard steel and titanium kits. I do not hear significant differences that would jump out from the middle of a band. Slight higher volume. In seeing Carl Palmer's steel set back in the 70's, what stood out far more was the concert tom sound, of a single headed set, not the steel. The drums may have sounded more crisp but, mics and sound system can address that, if that is what a player wants.
I present drums made from compressed paper, trash cans, and other materials showing there are no significant differences.
As far as snare drums, the last two videos in the series (so far) address them. Check the playlist if you have an interest.
I continue to believe, based on the evidence, the sound of a drum is produced by the heads, not a shell. Whatever a shell may enhance in the sound waves moving around inside the cylinder, because of shell density and depth, gets lost in full set play, and certainly in the context of a band. A really hard shell may produce a higher internal to external volume. That's about it. It matters far more to any drum how it is mounted, than what it's made from.
Purchasing high end drums may give you nicer finishes and better hardware and options but, not better sound. The ultra, super-hype from companies cannot be proven with empirical evidence anyone can hear. They don't even try to prove their hype, they just freely market it all. That's an unfortunate situation consumers have to wade through. The volume of comments agreeing with the premise, from their own experience, though anecdotal, backs up what I present.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. I appreciate it.
REFondrums you definitely bring some fair points and there’s not many people doing what your doing so I appreciate the perspective. It’s much needed.
DW makes great sounding drums ...... Ever notice they do exactly the same in the PDP line? ..... The same manufacturing process is employed, therefore the end result is identical........ All this hype over drum shell wood...... Yet no one ever mentions the variations in Acrylics or Metals used to construct drum shells .... Yet there can be variation between batches of manufactured Acrylics and Metals....... Further no one ever mentions that there is a vast difference in wood from tree to tree.... Wood from one tree is never the same as that from another tree even though they are within the same species.....
Um no, it is not the "exact same manufacturing process". DW makes every collectors series from individual veneers, in differing configurations which there are about a dozen different shell constructions they use in collectors vs PDP. PDP is cross laminated 7 ply, and is different from the collectors 7 ply as PDP uses a precut plywood Asian maple or birch, in 1/32" veneer where DW uses North American maple 1/36" where the inner ply is vertical grain (yes it does make a difference). You are right that every drum set is going to vary slightly.
bmbell71 DW designer line wasn’t the best.. at least for my personal taste. Now I’ve had a performance series but the designer HLVT shell “technology” should have never left the lab.
Hi Ray! I had a few questions that I was hoping you may be able to answer.
1. Can a drum shell material ever make a drastic difference in sound in comparison to other materials when you consider it's size goes over a certain threshold, like for example a 40" bass drum and over? This is just an example size of course.
2. Would the choice of drum shell material make a drastic difference in sound if the shell is closed off in say like that of a tympani or those molecules drums? Would a wood tympani be just as resonant as a copper one?
3. If I use wood, plastic, metal or other material as tops (or bottom even) instead of regular drumheads for the playing surface, would then the choice of tops or even shell material come into play? I was considering this would be more viable to a top at least since it is the playing surface. Also what about a metal pot that is a single cast pieve vs something that's added on top that is nailed, glued or welded? Would the latter limit its resonance more? I ask since basically companies like LP started doing this by selling steel mounted cylinders with metal tops that just seem like pots. And do you recommend a thickness for the tops if I were to do this? Or do I just need to experiment? I was thinking cajon front plate thickness?
4. Can the wall thickness of a shell drastically change it's sound past a certain amount of inches? And how would that influence it's tone? Would for example a 15" shell sound like a 12" if the thickness was 3"? Are there any drawbacks to this means of building and why don't you see manufacturer's really offer these options to consumers? I take it it's more of a novelty sale and has decreased tuning range and resonance? I take it it would sound "thicker" the thicker you made it at least?
5. Can you get exactly the same pitches across the board from low to high on two drums, if they are 1 inch apart from eachother in diameter? Since I'm building a kit, do you recommend I go with 2 inch diameter intervals between drums on toms for example or would something like a 13, 14, 15 inch drum set make just as much sense in terms of providing a subtle yet different enough sound, compared to that of something like 12, 14, 16 for example, with again would be effectively be the 2 inch difference? And what if it's a non tunable drum with like the wood tops I mentioned in my first example? Would it matter more then?
6. In the studio or live can sounds be altered so extreme that you can make any instrument have a better quality sound even if it's like a cheap beginner drum set cymbal like a Camber cymbal or flimsy sounding Chinese made drumhead for instance? And can you make something like a small 6" tom sound like an 18" and vice versa yet still sound natural or how extreme can you get? Do you know? I have no experience with these things and just heard about these type of alterations and want to know if it's true.
You have been very helpful answering my questions in the past and are probably the most knowledgeable and realistic person I've ever talked to when it comes to drums and their science. All the best to you! Thanks again!
1. I'm not certain I understand your question completely but, no, I do not believe so. I have never owned any but, I'd figure a 40" concert bass drum will have the same kind of tone from its chosen heads used, whether plywood shell, solid shell, acrylic, etc. Some volume variations may be present but, the volume of a drum that size is so huge I'd imagine any differences would be pretty small in any audio spectrum.
2. Well, not placing vent holes in my own drums, I know it isn't necessary. If you are talking about shape and construction, with one head, and how sound waves and air pressure is influenced in bowls like tympani or Molecules, interesting question. The obvious reason copper, aluminum, or fiberglass is used for kettle drums is because you can mold the shape. Same for acrylic Molecules. You can't mold wood veneers like that. It really isn't an apples to apples question. Logically, if you could mold wood into such shapes, the sound would be relatively the same, because the sound comes from the heads, and the same activity inside the shell would take place. The sound might be "softer," owing to the density of the shell but, as shown in my videos, it's all nuances and stuff. Nothing dramatic.
3. Honestly? Just walk into a Walmart, go to the kitchen section, and start tapping on pot bottoms and you'll have your answer. If you want a greater selection, go to a kitchen store at a mall or something, or a restaurant supply store. Steel, aluminum, copper, you'll hear that LP is just copying a sound used by DIY percussionists for a long time. As far as placing a metal front on a cajon, I'd imagine you'd get a lot of "pinging' to the sound but, I really have no idea. It may just sound like a total dud. It may sound relatively the same. You'd have to use a gauge of metal thick enough to warrant both sound and durability to be able to sit on the instrument. Then weight becomes a factor.
4. The sound of a drum comes off the heads. Even a 3" thick shell would have to have bearing edges cut inside so the heads do not touch the shell and totally mute it out. I do not believe a 1/4" or 3" thick shell will change the relative pitch thrown off by the tensioned heads. It will change the volume. Thicker shell walls generally enhance volume some. I don't know what a "thick" sound is. I have my 1" thick snare drums and they don't really sound any different. At certain head tension they sound a little more "woody," whatever that means.
5. Well, if you are going to make drums with wood striking surfaces, yes, the 2" difference will make a greater distinction because you have no options for tension/tuning, though thickness increases or decreases pitch. Just look into percussion keyboards to see how that is influenced and addressed. That's a matter of experimentation for you. If using drum heads, sure, you can change the pitches BUT, you also change the rebound and feel. Bear that in mind. I'm going to be making a video that addresses that issue.
6. There are definite limitations to altering sound through electronics and having sounds remain natural. The more you radically change the sound, the more you decrease the natural nature of its sound, i.e. 6" to 18." I'm aware of this only with playing edrums, and not being into all the programming necessary, I never really got into everything that can be done. With edrums/digital sound you can take a small tom and turn it into a large tom or bass drum, or whatever you want. Doing that after mic'ing a real drum and manipulating the sound? I guess if you digitize the sound you can do what you want. Leaving things analog, not so much, though I am no expert. I've only seen things Tom has done with our recordings. His set is a lowest level beginner's set and he has done great things with mics and software. I did use all my own cymbals though but, even there, the ability to mold sound with software is really pretty astounding. The reason these things matter in a studio is $$ for the time it takes to mess with it all. Much easier to bring in a B20 than student level brass ride, mic it, and get what you want.
One of my favorite rides is a Camber, nickel silver ride. Very glassy sounding, so, it really depends on what the player likes. If they like the basic sound of a inexpensive brass ride, that's really all that matters. You can turn a B20 or equivalent alloy into a pie plate with software. I do not believe you can turn a pie plate into a B20 without digitizing the signal and than just putting in whatever sound you want, whether cowbell, woodblock or whatever. That's the technology of the digital world and everything being 1's and 0's.
Doing anything live is really not something players or sound engineers will get into. They'll just use edrum stuff for drastic or radical sound modification you just plug in and go.
I'm glad to help out. I appreciate you taking the time to ask things.
Hi, I have been at this as long as you. Owned just about every thing and agree with most of what you say. I will give just on example of where I'm going with this. I have at the moment a Tama Starclassic and a DW Santa Monica set up (full sets).
With the same heads and tuning on both sets, the DW is much warmer and punchier than the Tamas. Also, the feel of the drums , both with sticks and the bass beater on the kick is like night and day.
I also know a 1950s Gretsch vs. a WFL 1950s kit, will sound and feel like they are from different planets.
So my point is , with experience , the up and coming drummer will hear and feel a pretty substantial difference.
You didn't mention the sizes or depths of the drums, kit to kit, which can affect feel, nor the mounting systems, which affect the feel and sound. Then there's the necessary defining of terms - warmer, punchier, etc. I'd expect Bubinga to enhance some higher frequencies thrown off by the heads but even there, plywood veneers glued together defeat the entire aspect of solid wood and cellular density specie to specie.
I have yet to hear any kind of "night and day" difference between any kind of drum, let alone typical plywood drums.
The issue for me, as per the series of videos, is ultra-hype in the industry about proprietary shells. Whatever differences you may hear in the sets you mentioned, aside from maybe a small Jazz trio, those nuances and subtle differences get covered up by a large band, and that's in a totally acoustic setting. Add all the electronics and what acoustic set of mid level or high end drums, paying attention to details for those price ranges, can be discerned by a player or an audience member, manufacturer to manufacturer? It's all marketing.
That's why the head companies have put in so much R&D to try and reproduce the sound and feel of calf heads.
What I'd like to hear is empirical demonstration of the premise. The companies don't offer it. Any comparison videos I have seen over the years just do not show the hype put out by the companies about proprietary shells. And if you have been at this as long as I have, you know when we were young no such hype about shells existed.
A drum is far too simple an instrument to have all the super-hype about shells make dramatic differences in sound, all things being equal. It's just a matter of physics. Depth, density, and mounting make the real differences in feel and sound, and whatever nuances are brought forth, in a band, it is far more about hardware for repetitive gigs and finishes under stage lights that mean more than sound because of shell designs. Then there's the whole topic of individual player touch and sticks used on any given set of drums. At least, that has been my continued experience with looking at this topic.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it.
@@REFondrums I understand where you're coming from. How about a string instrument? Put a couple of nails in a plank and mount a set of guitar strings between them. I mean BB King did that when he was a child. You can relate this experiment to guitars, violins, and a stand up bass. All have mounting hardware?
My point is, you,re not going to be able to play Chuck berry licks or jazz bass licks without the rest of the instrument.. with just a plank and strings.
@@anthonymark1635 Hm. I don't quite get your illustration. Even Roto toms sound like drums. Anything with a membrane under tension will sound like a drum, the same as any drum with a full shell. Differences would be volume, of course. Cylinders contribute to that. Full resonance. Cylinders holding onto waves within, contribute to that.
Even beginner drums, these days, have features way beyond what beginner drums had when I was a kid, depending on the company. There's nothing out there that compares to a board, nails and strings.
I never understood comparisons because stringed instruments, acoustic or especially electric, are far more complicated instruments than drums. It isn't apples to oranges. It's apples to onions.
Everybody knows beginner drums, low level drums suffer obvious drawbacks. Mounting hardware, kit hardware options and durability for performing, stocks heads, quick bearing edges that do not allow heads to seat correctly, cut back on lugs for tension and tuning, finish wraps, etc. But, as I show in the second video, low level, intermediate, and my own maple toms compare well for sound. How can that be? Because plywood shell species just do not meet the super-hype companies put upon them just to sell merchandise.
i have been banging on drums over 40 years , on tons of different drums , the shell tone is drowned out
Ray, I've been wanting to ask you for a while, what would you say to someone who plays something like that Pearl Forum luan wood kit (which I have, and to my ears has those ugly overtones) in a live small spaced jazz gig, where the audience is close to the instruments, no mics or mixers are used (on drums at least) and the jazz is rather on the softer slower side while sometimes only the drummer playing forte or or a drum solo for example? Would those ugly overtones be audible in such a setting? I've never played live but I believe I've seen this to be an actual scenario where drums aren't miked due to not needing the extra projection in such a small space?
Would something like a drum with more pleasing overtones ( Yamaha recording custom) be more appropriate or would it again not matter? And what about head selection (1 ply vs 2, clear, coated, center dot, etc) and other variables? Do they matter more the more intimate the setting along with the volume of music like soft jazz vs extreme metal to hear such differences ? Or what about just in general, as in playing live without mics and other sound altering equipment? You would know better lol which is why i ask. Thanks again my friend!
Forum's are entry level and entry level drums often suffer from less than optimal bearing edges for proper head seating, as well as mounting systems that constrict full vibration. That's where you get unpleasing overtones. The best way to address that is changing heads that naturally mute higher frequencies, then find a tuning range that both heads morph into well.
In a setting for a non-mic'd Jazz gig, depending on the sub-genre it is (you say softer music), the general deep depth of Forum toms, and kicks are meant more for Rock. That said, player sticks and touch on proper heads, and softer bd beaters can get you through most anything. In reality, I'd expect your cymbals to make a bigger difference in a Jazz gig than your drums. If you showed up with top of the line drums, and large Rock or Metal cymbal models you're probably in trouble with a close audience. You'll be muting your cymbals and they'll lose natural tone and sibilence, and sound like monolithic metal plates.
For heads, way too many to choose from but, anything that tones down high frequencies and gives you a softer sound. Tension them higher than normal but, don't choke them. If you tension them low ... well, that isn't a sound I equate with any kind of Jazz.
Yeah, sure, any level of drums that go up enough to ensure better edges and mounting, more shallow depths, and/or smaller sizes will always work better for acoustic Jazz.
@@REFondrums Thank you again Ray! Sorry I'm not always getting notification when someones replies and had to check manually. By less than optimal edges, I take it you mean areas of the edge that aren't completely level or true to the rest of the bearing edge cut? I wasn't really aware that a mounting system that could hinder full vibration of a drum could cause those unpleasant tones (or head choice on bad edges for that matter?) Which mounting systems exist that you know of, that don't hinder vibration (other than the R.I.M.S. system?)
Edit: BTW I own a set of older Forum's and have played them by just holding them from the rims and still get that unpleasant after tone and the edges never seemed too badly made to me, but I'm not an expert either. So while I'm not dismissing what you're saying, I just find something very strange about why they are sounding this way given what I just stated, but again I'm not an expert and can only really go by my own experiences and tests. Also I brought up the whole volume thing (softer jazz setting, smaller venue for example) because I was thinking (and correct me if I'm wrong) this may lend it self to someone hearing the overtones of a drum or other instrument easier compared to like a hard rock gig?
@@renedominguez9882 In my experience harsh tones are not a significant matter to an audience member at any distance away. Even a drummer is going to be taking in the entire band. Consider older Jazz recordings, players and live gigs where the drums are tensioned very tight, for stick rebound, have a very stacatto-like sound, often had very old, worn heads on the drums, and magic was made. It's all very subjective. Overtones get lost in the air fairly quickly. Also, if you haven't done it, let someone else strike the drums and see what you hear standing in front of them. You hear the batter head more, audience hears the reso head more. See what you think. Might not be as bad as what you hear behind the set.
The edges on the Forum's might be routered clean but, the issue is where the collar of the head seats on the edge. I'm guessing a single 45 degree inner cut is what is on those drums. If that edge catches the head somewhere on the collar, not the apex or flat of the head, you can get some pretty sour tones. Doesn't take much.
As far as mounting systems, yeah RIMS are the only thing I am aware of that stand alone as far as drum companies. Otherwise most companies have isolation mounting but, many are proprietary to their drums/lugs for mounting. As you can see in my videos I have been using snare baskets for almost 30 years now. They allow the drums to sing nicely. But, again, resonance and sustain have to be taken into context of a band and all. Most of the time all anyone hears is the initial stick impact on a head. The rest gets lost.
Hey Ray! I wanted to come back to this question since I'm now in the process of getting more drums, but on the bearing edge question I had previous, could you tell me what degree of inner and outer edges you'd reccomend that won't give me those sour overtones like the Pearl Forums I mentioned? BTW why would they put such edges on these 'entry level" drums? In your experience have most manufacturers done this with their entry lines and what about their more premium series? If you think about it, this would be a great marketing ploy to give unsuspecting consumers a reason to believe x wood or series is cheaper or lacking quality.
Also would head choice matter if I bought some cheap heads from some lesser known Chinese company vs that of a Remo for instance, in terms of durability and if the difference in quality of sound would be drastic enough to be heard by the audience? And again is there enough of a difference in quality in hardware between lesser known Chinese companies vs that of a Tama or DW for instance? And what about when it comes to a company like DW's different series of hardware? Why would one line be priced higher than another and in your opinion would you suggest spending more and why? Could you give me some examples?
And this question kind of goes with the one in the next paragraph. But where you can start getting different pitches from different diameters, in where you can't get from other sizes (or if you can get a certain high pitch from a larger sized drum compared to a smaller one for instance, the larger one would begin to sound choked in tone and not sustain as full), could you say where there is a general cut off point or ranges? Like 6"-12? Or where? And same question in terms of volume when it comes to diameters? I think you answered a similar question for me before but I just wanted to have a better idea on things and not feel like I'm guessing so much lol ;)
And well I'm not exactly sure of the sound I'm going for with the kit I'm building, but is there any way for me to know what sounds Id be looking to get based off a drums depth? I remember you saying the difference comes at around a 4" depth that you can not only hear but feel. Anyways is there some sort of gauge I can go by so I can get a rough idea of the sound I want? Idk if this question makes sense but all I can say is I've heard roughly pretty much every depth of drum except hearing them all at all tuning ranges. But basically would it ever be a good idea to use smaller 6 to 12 diameter inch drums as kick drums since I want a multi kick setup? Or what about tom tube sized drums that are twice or 3 times as long as their diameter? Would these work well for kick drums too? I've never heard this size double headed at least or ones that haven't been the "octoban/rocket toms" everyone has lol. Realistically I was looking at more the 16-24" diameter sizes or so, because of the greater volume, but again don't know the exact pitches they are capable of or why it would be better to buy 4 22" drums vs a 18, 20, 22 and 24 for instance, if the pitches are around the same scale.
Also don't mean to bombard you with question but if I've never cut bearing edges would it be just as viable to cut them with sandpaper by hand as if i built a router or should i just spend the extra 20 dollars and let someone else cut them?
Anyways whatever advice you can give me on this topic I'd truly appreciate if possible. All the best to you always again my friend! Thanks Ray!
As an engineer working with manufacturing, I'm almost certain the grain direction of the plies are an attempt to make shells as stable as possible with fewer veneers, less glue, & less labor... ultimately, lowering manufacturing costs & increasing profits. Now that they're thinner, the shell probably vibrates shock waves more easily, and marketing crafts language in order to sell it. That language then becomes "belief" which is at odds with "beliefs" another manufacturer puts out. Tama VS. Sonor, for example... Sonor seems to use (or used to, at least) thick shells to keep them from resonating, relying on the heads as much as possible. The Sonor approach makes better sense to me than the "thin, resonate shell" approach.
Others with your type of background have commented the same thing, as far as the manufacturing/marketing angle. Having made/played drums with varying degrees of thickness, I truly cannot say there are any significant, audible differences that could be detected within the context of modern music performance or recording. It really is a marketing approach that makes nuances and subtleties preeminent components of some magical proprietary sound, company to company. Magical sounds they refuse to audition, drum line to drum line compared, for consumers to simply hear for themselves their ultra-hype for shells and sound.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it.
Holy huge gap in the seam on that maple inner ply Batman!
Actually, that gap is 1 mm thick and Keller did fill it. The dark spot is a burn mark when they sanded the interior. The "gap" looks much wider than it actually is.
Absolutely true. Did you know they finally found out why Stradivarius violins sound good.....they are not perfect!! His violins weren't symetrical or anything. You could even say that Stradivarius wasn't a good builder at all. But the imperfections in the overall construction makes it sound different than it's counterparts. So....even relatively crappy products can sound amazing. I think even a kids SpongeBob drumset with the right heads can sound good. All that talk about perfectly round drums. What do you think happens to your round bassdrum when you mount pounds of toms on top of it? Listen to this Guy. Just find a nice old Export or rockstar set, clean it up, stick some Evans or remos on it and enjoy!
Truth . They'll say anything to sell their wares . I started on a $ 299 drum set many years ago and Buddy Harmon told me they sounded like a million bucks . It's not the drums , it's the player and what he does with them .
I wonder what does the thickness of the shell,Sir???
For your next video , pull out some collector series dw drums and compare them . . . .just as a goof
The goof would be on me for spending all that money just to hear the same results.
DW owners are very fierce in their defense of their instruments. Logically, if they were greater than anything else out there, why wouldn't everybody be playing them?
DW makes fine instruments at all price levels. Everybody does. They have to. The competition is fierce. That does not mean they should super-hype the sound of a drum because of their shells. Drum heads produce the sound, not the shells. Small variations of shell construction, mostly density and depth, color the sound in nuances and subtleties. Do those nuances pierce through cymbals clanging, and a band all around the player? Not that I have ever heard.
It is my simple contention all the super-hype is marketing, nothing more, and stating things about superior sound because of proprietary things done to drum shells is BS. I made the series to show that. You may disagree for whatever reasons but, I know you will not provide evidence anyone can hear to the contrary. It is not there. Nobody in the industry will do it. That tells me all I need to know, right there.
I heard a kit that was gum and maple resonating longer than it’s all all maple counter part in the same room. The gum is softer so in theory in should’ve resonated less than the all maple than if softer woods resonate less. Also they both had the same stock heads tuned the same by the same guy and both 6 ply.
Not saying it’s wrong that softer woods resonate less, just strange how sometimes the rules don’t pan out with drums.
I think it's all in your head
What he’s saying is true believe me He’s not crazy he’s actually helping people make informed decisions when buying expensive equipment when you buying expensive drums what you’re buying is a better quality build but as far as sound is concerned he’s absolutely right once you get in the studio or in a live setting no difference
1) Around 7:15, it’s not the mic that distorts (usually), it’s the mic preamp or the audio interface. You can have a mic that deals with signals around 140 dB but if the preamp is turned up enough to make your voice audible and then you suddenly hit it with a much louder signal then either the preamp or the analog-to-digital converter will distort and not the mic.
2) Around 23:25, “it (the mic) will pick up something different”, “some low end” ... no, it won’t. Both mic’s and speakers have frequency ranges.
They won’t pick up or reproduce anything outside of those limits.
I listened to a video about different bass drum sizes and they all sounded the same through the phone speaker.
I put on good headphones and then could immediately hear vast differences.
Good tech to know. Thanks.
REFondrums : I learned from you as well.
Killed a lot of gear lust.
My new brass shell snare does sound different from my birch snares.
I do agree with the valuable points you’ve made.
Thanks.
Uhh, I bought a set of S!ingerlands in the early seventies! They were all maple 3 ply with reinforcement rings and outer roll over and inner 45. I still have them! They are stabile and strong! I also have a bop kit made by Pearl. Intermediate level maple drums all 45 bearing edges! I think the Pearls are more overtones because of modern milling equipment. I love both sets! Heads make the difference! Then minimal muting to make them blend to the room! My point is maple is super durable and the shells have survived fourty years of in and out of a hot or cold car and miles of road work and still going strong!
Thanks REFondrums. I'm curious, at one time in the early 2000s DW Drums were considered the "best sounding drums". I don't believe it, but notice that they have a certain sound as a drum. Is it the hardware? Can you explain why DW drums have such a different sound from a different drum? I've always heard sort of a lower tone sound with those drums, no matter what heads.
Thanks for watching.
I have never heard that DW drums accentuate lower frequencies more than others, despite their marketing pitches about shell design. I'm not aware of other comments to that effect. I have seen people say Yamaha Phoenix drums render lower frequencies but, not DW. As far as I know they don't use hardware (lugs, rods, hoops) that are different than others to some special degree, as far as materials used in manufacture. Their suspension mounts are essentially doing the same thing as other brands. I have seen comments they are not as effective as other brands but, if that were true there would be a loss of low end frequency. That's the range suspension mounts tends to open up the most.
I would agree, though they make fine instruments, they are not the best made. Everybody makes quality instruments, at all lines because competition is very heavy. Perhaps you have some comparisons in mind that can be viewed?
@@REFondrums Thanks for the reply. It's hard to describe the DW sound, because growing up in High School, Battle of The Bands times. I remember one of the bands drummers was amazing on drums. Hearing the drummers DW kit (it was a stock white sparkle kit) to me always had a distinct sound from my own. Not that I was trying to recreate his sound, but I noticed extreme differences. I play a Premier Signia Marquis kit - maple wood. Not sure of the wood for his DW sparkle stock kit, and also the drums were different diameter and dimensions from my setup with different heads.
Close within my family a former drum salesman gave his opinion on DW drums to me having more of a "thuddy" dead sound with less sustain and tonal ringing frequencies. I guess that's what I meant by lower tone. It's been awhile, but I remember his description of that "thuddy" sound resonating with me of accurately describing a DW drum sound.
re make this like alex jones talking about a conspiracy it would be funny as hell. great vid man LOVE IT. don't buy the hype .. get good heads , learn to tune
Its funny that John good on his long-winded DW videos like to talk all the shell info and hit bare shells but never have i seen him line up several of his different shell constructions on a same sized tom with the same heads tuned the same and let us hear all these differences he keeps telling us about.
Indeed. Nor any other manufacturer that super-hypes their proprietary shells. It's all marketing.
Thanks for watching.
Ye speaketh the truth. This is like the tone wood debate with electric guitars. Some are convinced that wood *significantly* changes the tone of otherwise identical electric guitars. At best, the differences are microscopic. There are other far more obvious variables to electric guitar tone. Why people fixate on the micro and ignore the macro is quite odd.
I was under the impression that the thicker the shell the louder it gets and the less sustain it has.
Depends on the shell density. A thick shell made of soft wood may not be as dense as a thinner shell that is harder, more dense. All things being equal, say Maple, yes, a thicker shell will generally be a little louder but, sustain is more the bearing edge and how it contacts the heads. No modern drum or vintage drum can handle electric guitars and keys, etc., so, it's all moot. You'll need mics and from there it's in the hands of the sound or recording engineer.
Sustain, as much as I appreciate it, is kind of moot, as well because in the context of a band, none of it is noticed. There's way too much aural competition with everything else happening. If the basic sound of the drum set is balanced in a stage or recording mix, all you will really notice is the initial impact of the stick on the batter head and the drums basic pitch. Use any kind of manufactured muted-style heads and sustain is less so, it becomes something that only gets noticed, maybe, in a solo, for all practical purposes. In a small, acoustic Jazz trio, yes, a lot more noticeable but, even there, sound travels and dies depending on the room acoustics. A lively drum can sound muted depending on the room.
Most players do not consider the set's environment when considering sound. Room acoustics play a major role in how a drum set will perform, be it live or recording studio.
Thanks for watching.
I agree to a very large extent with what you're saying ... but, there is one thing that is undeniable. Suspension mounts, to varying degrees, depending on design, do make one hell of a difference. This is not a 'head thing', but a 'shell thing' ... especially on thinner shell drums, which I DO believe are much more a part of the sound of the drum than thicker shells. And the deadening of the sound, in this case, has nothing to do with the heads, but it's all about killing the shell resonance. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just bringing up a point that I'd like your take on. I do agree with you on heads, but would also add that knowing how to tune a drum is the major culprit, as no matter what head/s you use, if you don't know how to tune em, they will sound like crap every time. When we listen to different kits on vendor sites, they have been tuned, and mic'd/processed to perfection. They can make cardboard boxes sound great in a studio setting ... especially these days with digital wizardry.
I completely agree and mention the principle of isolation mounting for fuller frequency range of sound throughout the series, something lesser lines and models of drums do not employ. They can, though, be purchased separately with great results. I also mention cardboard boxes undergoing the marvels of software. I have seen videos on YT addressing that very subject, and mention that from time to time. Thanks for watching.
Spot on could not agree more the heads make all the difference. Give me a roll of gaffer tape and I will get a great tone out of any cheap drum set. Expensive drum kits are way overrated I had a Brady 5 piece jarrah shell kit it cost $8,000 I wouldn't say it had a fantastic tone or was way better than any other brand it really wasn't worth the money, but when it comes to cymbals and hardware well that's a whole different ball game.
The sounds of the drums are not just the heads you can put the same head on 2 different kits and they will sound completely different
What about basswod kits? I have a basswood kit and it's amazing!
I use a couple basswood or some other lightweight ply toms in Part 2. Yeah. They sound fine.
@@REFondrums i think we can hear some diference on a snare drum. But tons, bass drums? Most of the time when we play the tons we play a fast fill o something like that. And the bassdrum, i realy don't knwow the diference between my bassdrum and others if i use the same head...
@@cyberdrums As I mention throughout the videos, snare drums involve more shell characteristics because of the different factors associated with snare drums - shallow depths, snare heads, wires and hardware, and mostly head tension, which is generally much tighter than toms and kicks. We would recognize a tom tensioned like that as "choked," though Jazz drummers can tension all their drums pretty tight, and we recognize that sound as Jazz tuning: head tension, not shell design. It really is all about the heads, not the shells. I don't think anyone would argue the differences between metal and wood snare drums but, even there, change the head on a metal snare and you can mellow it out very quickly.
I have found that the cheaper drum shells begin to split & sometimes lose their shape. As far as wood & sound their is little difference but the problem comes in the hardware because companies seem to only put good hardware on the higher end woods.
I agree and mention that throughout the series of videos. I have never seen the less expensive drums come apart at seams or anything. Actually, I have seen problems with Keller maple shells I have used. Go figure. That said, if players aren't touring, and don't need the best hardware a company makes, mid-level sets and the hardware they offer work just as well and sound just as good. So much stuff is sold as shell packs today, people end up getting various hardware components, anyway. Unless it is the really cheap stuff out of China, with China brands on them, most companies use decent lugs and hoops and mounts on sets these days. They have to because the competition is so great out there now. It's a win/ win for drummers.
I'm a little late to this party, but I've been saying the same thing for years!! I'm about 3 years older than you and have been drumming since the mid 60's. Back then, there was no hype about the kind of wood in the shells!! It was simply a matter of which company you liked best! Rogers, Gretsch, Ludwig, Slingerland or one of those foreign brands, lol! And as far as choices in a given brand, all I remember is that the cheaper kits only had a center lug on the toms and kick. I don't remember any mention of types of wood! The only U.S. company that didn't use reinforcing rings was Gretsch and that seemed sketchy at the time, haha! Then that became the norm!! (because those rings caused disruption in the sound waves!) Now those disrupting rings have crept back into the higher ends drums again! I'm 100% with you about the better hardware, chrome plating, finishes and overall quality control of higher end drums! But I have never believed that wood choice made a significant difference in the overall sound of a drum. I've got a cheap poplar kit, a mid range birch/kapur kit (Pearl SSC), and a poplar/mahogany kit(Pearl Export) and they all sound good! In fact, I tuned the Export kit out of the box next to the SSC's and using the same heads, they sound identical! The SSC's have a MUCH better finish, better chrome, better hardware and are finish coated on the interior which was well worth the extra that I paid for it. I can take the Export's to a gig and not get butt-hurt when the singer knocks over a mic stand into the kit!!
Amen, and Amen!
Over hyped shell design you say? *cough cough DW *cough
Sam Robinson lol I noticed it when he said different tuning ranges and sound pitched shells lol
Sure we'll sell you this "special" wood. $6,000 please
DW makes good sounding drums ..... Ever notice they do the same at 1/4 the price in their PDP line? ..... Hum...
Sam Robinson I was going to make the exact same comment. I was looking to make sure no one else did first when I saw yours!
Haha. You are correct. I spent over 3 k for a collectors series in 2001. They are overpriced but drums stayed in tune. It’s all about the drumhead and tuning. Takes time to master even for this 45 year old man.
I'm looking at buying a drum set, and the guy who owns the shop told me pretty much the same as you have.
Get a PDP or a Yamaha. You'll get high end drums for dirt cheap. The hardware is worth replacing but my birch PDP FS sounds like a pro studio quality kit with my SM57s and crappy tom mics hooked up. People have continuously told me how good my kit sounds, and I spent 1000 dollars on it for a full 5 piece kit with an extra 8inch tom that came with. I spent my money on my cymbals (which makes a huge sound difference to a kit). I bought Zildjian A customs and replaced the snare with a yamaha Musashi 13 inch snare and I absolutely love my kit. A drum dial is a must for the lower end kits, and I regret waiting so long to get mine because after I did, I got my already good sounding drums to sound amazing. Always spend more on your cymbals and drum heads. They matter so much more than the actual material of the kit. DW is fucking awful about their overly capitalistic practices, and PDP which is supposed to be the lower quality, is really just as good as any DW kit. They're made in the same fuckin places anyway. Get yourself a beautiful kit that is visually appealing and save your money for some good high quality cymbals and maybe a new snare.
That drum shop guy told you the truth, shake his hand and consider giving him you patronage.
Good Job Thank You .
I don't want to get into a huge debate over this but over all I disagree with your point. I'd agree there's a ton of hype around shells and every one makes great drums, many of the same techniques are used in shell construction but everyone wants to have branding around it. However I totally disagree that shell material construction makes no difference it absolutely does both in timbre and sustain. Look you hit a drum it sounds like a drum, do you think it's going to sound like a clarinet? But shell construction and bearing edges absolutely make a difference. First off shell construction. There's a reason why people pay up to 8 grand for a 60's era Gretsch USA custom, the Maple/Gum/Maple construction does have a timbre to it that is unique. Sorry a Gretsch USA Custom does not sound like a Brooklyn, and if you've played either of them you'd know they don't sound alike. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are different. A Ludwig 3 ply maple with reinforcement hoops does not sound like a DW standard collectors series. Again which one someone like better is personal preference. There are some great sounding budget drum sets and I have owned (still own ) and play many of them.
No debate. All of your points are addressed in the other videos in the series, especially bearing edges. I never said shell material makes no difference. I said all the hype in the industry about shells at best can only render nuances and subtleties which are then lost in full set play and certainly in a band, effected by sound systems and recording equipment. What you are stating is basically anecdotal, is it not? Even Gretsch has some comparison videos they produced and they honestly state there are only slight differences to be heard. Gretsch and Premier are two companies that do not over-hype their shells.
If people want to pay 8k for vintage drums that is their choice. Nobody can prove with definitive sonic evidence that 8k produces such a different sound as to stick out from other drums when cymbals are blaring and a band is engaged.
All I ask or suggest is that all the companies line up a tom from all their drum series and let us hear, as prospective consumers of their products, how all their proprietary hype creates such differences in sound. They do not because they cannot.
Leaving sarcasm aside, I do not expect a drum to sound like anything other than a drum. Sustain is not created by a shell. It is created by how the drum is mounted and how well the heads seat on the edge and are allowed to vibrate freely when struck. The hardest of plywood shells, with the most density, mean nothing if the shells are constricted in their mounting, or muted by contact with a floor, etc. Sustain, as a practical subject, becomes moot because nobody hears sustain when they are playing a full set and a band is engaged. There is an initial impact of the stick on the head and a single ply, dble ply, or other type of head respond more to stick choice and player touch for that initial sound far more than the plywood cylinder they sit upon, which is why head companies are always trying to come up with something that sounds like calf heads.
Hardware, finishes, warranties all mean more to owning a drum set than any ultra-hype manufacturers have gotten into about their shells. Evidence to the contrary is lacking. They don't produce it themselves. Why should I believe their hype? Actually, as the Ford video basically attests, Sonor did line theirs up, at a NAMM show, and everything sounds the same when struck. It is humorous when people claim you cannot hear any differences because of all the people walking around and talking. Or because it is a cell phone video. We can hear the difference in the characteristics of their voices, and if talking people can create a problem to drum sound distinction, how on earth do they expect a full band to allow such distinction to come through?
A drum is a drum. A small number of components with basic design features. The differences that can be rendered in final sound are far more effected by the type of heads, how well the heads seat, and how the drum is mounted. And, as you say, there are fine instruments out there which cost much less than hyped top-of-the-line models. That is the honest truth. That was my purpose in doing the videos. Pay what you want but, don't expect that extra money to give you some special sound.
You can't just say overall say that wood type doesn't affect a drum's sound...there are different sound properties to different woods. The end sound of a drum is the result of many factors such as style of hoops, nylon or wood tipped stick, room/venue sound, velocity of attack, any or no muffling, eq or no eq, the list goes on and on but a big factor IS wood type.
Well, let's put everything together that you have listed. You would admit that all these things together add how much actual, noticeable difference between plywoods with the entire set in action in the context of a band? What evidence is there that significant differences could be heard, even by the drummer, let alone the band, and certainly not the audience, that a maple drum sounds significantly different than birch, beech, oak, or any other plywood shell? Would it not be to the advantage of all the manufacturers to line up their drums from each line and just show what the differences are to the prospective consumer? But they don't do it. They don't for obvious reasons. Some companies, like Gretsch and Premier, are not so bold and foolish to make such hyped up claims. Others, it never stops.
Again, this is about ultra-hype in the manufacturing industry and what claims they each make about their shells. Aside from nuances and subtleties, I believe this series of videos pretty much shows point blank the sound of a drum is the heads, not the shell. Change the heads, change the sound of a drum. Again, this is just about literal sound, not finishes, not drum hardware which can up the price significantly. I would like to see and hear proof that plywoods of any species sound significantly different from one another.
What heads you place on the shell and how you mount the drum is 99% of what is heard. Sticks, velocity, rooms, mics combine to make all things equal regardless of plywood shell.
I would humbly ask you to watch #2 and see that more money does not equal better sound, regardless of manufacturer hype.
Thank you for speaking the truth! Most new-ish drummers think that a $10,000 top of the line Sonor or DW exotic bubinga-or-whatever flavor of the day kit will make them sound like Dave Weckl. It WON'T!!! A great drummer makes an entry level kit sound amazing, and a mediocre drummer sounds mediocre no matter what they play. Buy a decent mid-level used kit and kick that extra cash to a good teacher - BUT ONLY IF YOU'RE WILLING TO COMMIT YOURSELF TO PRACTICE, PRACTISE, PRACTISE!
Sound, feel and resonance are all different things, who ever said they spend a certain amount of money on sound alone, when you play drums only a fraction of your mind/timing is concentrating on just the sound
The videos are addressing ultra-hype in the drum industry about proprietary claims of drum shells and supposed superior sound.
Resonance is a part of a drum's sound. No sound, no resonance. Feel is player touch on whatever chosen heads. Drum shells do not effect that, save for depths. All companies have shell depths. There's no way to ultra-hype what everybody makes, by default. Mounting will effect feel. Room acoustics will. A denser shell's slightly extra volume may. Proprietary glues, finishes, and all the rest of the marketing hype? No.
I'd have to say, based on comments on all the videos in the series thus far, most players spend money on what they believe the drums will sound like, from whatever research they have done. Until they receive them, they aren't concentrating on anything but, receiving them.
plies sound a lot deader than staves or one ply. They also have more give in touring and tossing stuff around. They are durable. In a plywood shell there is also a lot of glue. Recording artist/engineers might prefer the deader shells (remember Ringo with the towels on the drums?). But stave shells/one ply sound so much more lively and the sustain is unbelievable. The wood itself doesn't do too much. It's a matter of cost and looks. The way he plies are run is also not important. It's all marketing.
Here is an interesting fact or two to chew upon.... In the 80s and 90s when drum manufacturers were using White Meranti wood (aka Philippine Mahogany) which has a Janka hardness of just over 1000 (same as birch and maple), ever notice that the drum shells were all extreme in length, about 2 or 3 inches longer than the shells we observe today? That's because Birch and Maple are far more expensive than white meranti, therefore the manufacturers (in order to save money) cut down the shell lengths, and came up with the term "Fusion"..... Really its nothing more than a cost issue where a reduction in size saves about 3 feet in length of material that is anywhere from 1 to 4 inches in width, per drum over prior construction.
Paul. I have a yamaha stage custom set from the late 90s. Best sounding kit I've ever had. Regular old remo heads and good tuning. Made from birch falkata and mahogany.
I purchased a cheap $99 crush kit that sounded like trash with the stock 1mm heads. I bought and installed Evans hydraulics and an emad batter head and they transformed into a killer rock kit from the 70’s. DW is a prime example of marketing hype gone awry. I have never played a DW rig that impressed me and I damn sure won’t pay their asking price.
I play live and make a good living doing it. Craftsmanship and good heads make all the difference in the world.
High end drums are made with way more care and have perfect berring edges. Berring edges are one of the most important things. It contributes to how the head contacts shell. Wood types do make a difference, birch has a shorter sustain and more cutting sound than maple. Maple has a more round tone with more resonance.
Thanks for watching, Larry. As to wood types, your comment is anecdotal. I'd like to hear the evidence. I have yet to hear it in any example thus placed before me (and plenty of others who deny such differences). Video #2 and beyond addresses that head on with examples. I also cover bearing edges at length and dispel myths about that subject, as well. Your comment about Sonor's shells fits well with my whole point, something I also cover: the smaller shell diameter, same as Premier has done for decades, does NOT cause the head to contact more shell wall. It causes less, which allows the heads to sing more. If you notice any difference between your Sonor's and PDP, that could make a difference. Now, the bottom line is, can that nuance be heard when an entire set is cranked up, especially in a band context? I have yet to hear the evidence. Obviously high end drums have better overall features and hardware but, as far as all the fanatical ultra-hype about plywood shell design the manufacturers pump out? I believe it is nonsense and a shame, if not a sham. But, as I say throughout the videos, purchase what makes you happy.
@@REFondrums quite anecdotal. There are many species of maple, birch, some soft, some hard, some more dense than others. To put any one timber in a sound category is dubious. Some soft maples sound no better than basswood or some type of lauan, which can sound great! Bearing edge, symmetry, and dimension have more to do with sound than material.
@@REFondrums Im not sure if I understand, are you saying that a Birch Drum Sounds the Same as a Maple ?? There has to be some sort of difference in sound when you change wood. They would all Create a Different Sound Transient. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying?
@@themadmaddrummer Factually, the density/hardness between common Birch and common Maple used for plywood drum shells is so close, sound waves in the shell will react the same. Any differences of any species that reflect sound waves and contain the air column before everything dissipates, will be nuances and subtleties. There are no dramatic differences one could tell in the context of a band. The sound of a drum is created by the membranes stretched across the cylinder, not the cylinder. The cylinder can only accentuate or reduce certain frequencies at very small levels. The sound of drum will change far more, drum to drum, company to company, by placing different heads on them. Single ply, double ply, coated, clear, etc., and that, as well, being subtle, as is the case between clear and coated heads.
Why do Roto toms, Traps, Flats, and other frame drums sound like drums? The heads. Add a full shell and you get some residual effects, be it a little more volume, a more punchy sound, etc. But, I defy anyone to show me evidence that in a blindfold test they could tell what kind of species was being played, same size drums, same heads, same mics, etc. There just isn't enough frequency range difference to make such assessments that anybody can literally hear when you crank up a whole set, cymbals and all, especially with a band. It is all super, ultra-hype put out by drum companies that they do not even try to prove. They just make their marketing claims and confuse the heck out of customers who will try to get the most expensive kit offered, when a lesser line will do the same thing when it comes to sound. Drum component quality, mounting hardware, finishes, etc., will improve. Dramatic sound differences? I have yet to hear the proof. The same goes for all species used for plywood shells. I would expect a more dense shell wall to render accentuation of a slightly elongated frequency range and volume. Beyond that, drums are not race cars, they are not junk cars, they are not mechanical devices. They are drums. Despite all the hype, it is not rocket science to make a drum. I say that after making them for 30 years.
If you have the time, check out the entire series and you will see the empirical evidence of my position.
@@REFondrums I've had quite a few drum kits and they all sounded much different than each other. I worked at a Music store and got to set up Probably Every Brand of Drum kit and tune them up. Cheap Drums Can sound Great no questions asked. But you can't tell me that there isn't a big Difference between kits. Roto Toms sound like Roto Toms. High End Maple Drum Kits Sound Much Different than a Cheap Maple Drum Kit. You Get what you pay for. I personally think it's cool That Dw and Pearl Drums Mix up and Play around with wood Shell combinations. No offence but you are saying that a Van Drives the same as a Ferrari.................I Don't think your ears are as developed as you think.
With modern factory machinery the drums are so simple to make that the companies only option is to add further mystique (and premium price tags) by using exotic woods, hardware and labour intensive finishes. It's funny and kind of ironic that some of the most expensive drums are now 'hand-made', the drum companies have gone full-circle in searching for ways to market their drums.
Well said.
Plot Twist: Pearl put bad drumheads of Remo UT on purpose on the export drum kits to sound bad because Pearl WANT you to think they are entry level kits, and that's why they do put 1.6mm triple flange hoops on the decade maple with bad heads too, because if they put the Superhoop or 2.3mm, the decade maple would sound as good asd the masters or reference drum kit.
Oriollo drums is challenging all the wood theoricians of the drums manufacture while giving a favor to the trees 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻