The History of Stereo Music on the Commodore 64!

[@kentsosu]

Matt, nice job! For anyone interested in a (very) deep dive on the SID Symphony Stereo Cartridge, I wrote two blog posts some time ago that recount its history. Thanks to Matt for adding links to those posts in the show notes, as well as to the two-sided flippy of stereo Sidplayer music I assembled that we made available with the cartridge. That collection does a decent job of showing off the capabilities of the SID chip. (By the way, I never created other volumes.)

[@bozimmerman]

Not enough like buttons for this video. Been a stereo sidplayer fan forever, having run into it via BBSing, but never knew all the history dug up in this episode. This whole thing just made me so happy -- thanks!

[@bozimmerman]

P.S. The video points out the .SID files of Europe. I wonder if anyone else spend months or longer in confusion over the fact that, despite the differences, N Americans still called "*.MUS" files "SID" files, and their player "SID Player". It caused much confusion and misunderstanding in communication for me.

[@retrobitstv]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! It was a lot of fun revisiting the SID tunes I listened to as a kid :)
I was totally confused when I got back into Commodores as an adult. We just called the files "SIDs" back then. So I downloaded some .sid files from the Internet and didn't understand why they wouldn't load in the Stereo Player!

[@coyote_den]

The biggest difference between SID files and MUS/STR/WDS/PIC/ANI file sets is that SID files are self-contained player programs. They typically load to $1000-1fff (or $9000-9fff) because you can't use those blocks for graphics (VIC always sees CHAROM there). You init them with JSR $1000 and every 50/60 Hz JSR $1003 to play. Obviously they're meant to be called during vertical blanking, and in fact many of them are ripped from games and demos or can be dropped right into one. Because they're code+data in one package there was no limit to what kind of tricks they could perform (short of playing samples, that needs to be faster than 50/60 Hz) but they didn't have lyrics/animation/graphics and almost none could drive a 2nd SID.

[@retrobitstv]

Great info, thanks! Yea, to the best of my knowledge, MUS files weren't designed to be used in games or in other software and were purely stand-alone affairs. They also were limited by the feature set of the editor/player, unlike the clever coding tricks that .sid composers were able to do to create their own effects or things like digisids.

[@nneeerrrd]

sic!
to me, .SID files sound much better. Probably, due to the more close to metal approach, hence better timing and filters control. idk

[@tetsujin_144]

12:57 - "As a child, I never had access to Q-Link due to its cost"
I did! And once or twice I racked up a pretty severe bill on the service, as most things worth doing on Q-Link were "plus time", meaning you paid by the minute in addition to the base monthly fee... You were probably better off not using it. :)

[@retrobitstv]

Hey, as long as whatever you downloaded at a premium ended up on the local boards, it was worth it for the rest of us!

[@RacerX-]

Holy Crap I can't believe you fixed the Back to the Future SID! I remember the popping sounds well as that was also one of my favorites. It was especially noticeable when you played it on your home stereo like I did. It never even occurred to me to open it in the editor as I just figured it was a SID nuance. Fantastic episode!
Most of my download time on Q-Link was downloading SID player files and Demos. I even uploaded some of my pathetic made ones. haha. I was aware of the Euro SIDs as they related to demos and games but .MUS was super popular over here in North America. You could aways find the latest hit songs on Q-link shortly after the singles were playing on the radio. Those were the days!

[@dmitriivanov7143]

Awesome episode! The dual sound chip setup in retro computers is a fascinating subject, and there is surprisingly little content on it out there. Thank you for filling this void!

[@realman4sho]

Oh Wow!!! I was 16 years old when I was a contributor to the SID Player world. I programmed the music and my high school friend inserted the words. We were under the alias MC Far and CLR... Our SID Player version of "Buffalo Stance" by Neneh Cherry was awarded most downloaded on Compuserve according to Commorode Magazine. We thought that we were stars!

[@retrobitstv]

Great story, thanks for sharing! deepsid.chordian.net/?file=Compute%27s%20Gazette%20SID%20Collection/MC_Far_and_Clr/Buffalo_Stance.mus

[@realman4sho]

@@retrobitstv Thanks for sharing the link! I haven't heard these in over 30 years...

[@EricGus67]

Yes I can confirm that at parties we had during high school in the 80s, we had this running ..

[@m0nde]

All the music files I had growing up in California, Michigan and later in Canada were .SID format. I had no idea what .MUS was until you mentioned it.

[@ChrisKewl]

This explained my experiences exactly, .MUS/.SID fascinated me. I even did the Axel F with 2 Commodores with my brother when I got a second Commodore in '93. I still listen to Compute's SIDs on a regular occurrence, especially during copy parties, like the most recent one at the 8-Bit Guy's place.

[@rager1969]

I don't know why, but this video brought back a memory of a TV show that I never watched called Whiz Kids. I guess because it has a synth theme song that at the time I associated with the C64, though I suspect it was a keyboard based synth that was actually used.

[@retrobitstv]

I vaguely remember that show!

[@L0wcash]

Matt, thank you for introducing me to the .MUS-format!! I've been enjoying stereo sid-sound for years without knowing about the fascinating origins and the Music System player. I've owned a C64 since i was a kid and decades later this system still has more to offer!
Bob Yannes creation, even though it was a rushed design, was so much better than all other sound chips at the time. It was a design that compares to a Minimoog but housed in a single chip that was very cheap to produce. And that at a time when synthesizers cost as much as a car!

[@retrobitstv]

You're welcome! It's funny how different the C64 experience was depending on one's location. I never knew about regular ol .SID files until 30 years later! Can you imagine what the C64 would have been like if the SID had 32 (or even 16) voice polyphony as was originally intended? Actually I wonder if the CPU would even be able to really take advantage of that. Hrm...

[@L0wcash]

@@retrobitstv 32 voices would be in a dedicated synthesizer. Bob Yannes designed the SID to be used in musical instruments as well as in the C64 (Originally for the MAX Machine). That's why there is an audio input on the chip. So multiple chips could be daisychained together.
I think the SID was ultimately just too noisy for use in an instrument. That's probably why it never happend. I recon the 6502 was certanly powerfull enough for use in a synth if you take away all the stolen cycles for video. If the Z80 was fast enough for use in the Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 than the speedwise comparable 6502 should be fast for a Sidsynth..

[@TL....]

its pretty amazing what they were able to pack into that sid chip

[@MisterMsk]

Love playing with COMPUTE!'s Music System. Remember it from all years ago. I remember animations being done. Even having the images at the top and words playing underneath. Great video!

[@DrMcGrew]

I guess you guys aren't ready for that yet. But your kids are gonna love it.

[@derekmangrum7659]

Dude! You nostalgia'd the crud outta me today! Thank you so much for this episode!!

[@retrobitstv]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@waffler222]

AT THIS POINT IN TIME I AM PLAYING WITH YOU AND WATCHING YOU

[@retrobitstv]

::closes the blinds::

[@jdryyz]

Yes, yes...the popping in the Back to the Future track. I wasn't sure what to make of that back in the day. I think I blamed my own hardware. When I returned to the 8 bit world 7 years ago, and started using a variety of Commodore 64s, I still heard the popping. I played with VICE too before that time. Either consciously or unconsciously, I always heard the pops. I figured it had to be something other than the song itself....because why would the author not have caught and fixed after all this time? Of course I do not know Brian's history in the C= world. I sure loved all of his tunes though. The Dune Desert Theme is probably my favorite.

[@JerryJ26]

I remember living and working in saudi arabia back in 1982 and bringing my new C64 with me and found a lot of other expats with them too. I subscribed to commodore magazine and between us we typed in programs for us to use like speedScript word processor. a few years later in college i got the StereoSID cartridge and never looked back.

[@coyote_den]

Ah yes. I had the SID Symphony board and that axelf track. Still amazed how close it was to the actual recording. Also a very good version of Rush's "Mystic Rhythms"

[@KennethDPedersen]

I spent so much time playing these songs in this program, this hit right in the nostalgia spot, thank you!

[@retrobitstv]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@michaelcarey]

I'm just getting into multi SID music. I've build a SideKick64 that can emulate eight SIDs on one machine.

[@thomashollinger1418]

A long time ago, I created a lot of six voice SID Christmas tunes I donated to Loadstar magazine which were published. I felt famous for a month. I wonder if anyone has them!

[@retrobitstv]

Very cool, thanks for sharing your story. I checked and yes, there is a directory in the CGSC with your name that contains 10 Christmas songs with MUS/STR/WDS files! I'll be giving them a listen :) They also seem to be represented on DeepSid, albeit in 3-voice only: deepsid.chordian.net/?file=/Compute%27s%20Gazette%20SID%20Collection/Thomas_Hollinger/

[@thesteveharrison]

Really interesting mate. Enjoyed it😁😁

[@FadkinsDiet]

Wow! I had just been searching for info on if there had ever been solutions to use the unused/mirrored IO handles and connect them up to other SID chips -- never realized how much had already been done!

[@SJGster]

Might be a good idea to note for VICE that you want to switch to NTSC instead of the default PAL. At least when I've forgotten, it didn't work IIRC.

[@bitoxic]

I think commodore missed the opportunity to add dual SID to the C64 C board in 1987... if they were concern about cost... they could have only populated one SID and left it up to the consumer to add the second SID later.

[@electronscape]

ok, got a better understanding of MUS/STR and why its so wanted!!

[@skideric]

Man,i LOVED Q-Link!Still got the Monthly Mags they put out! And the Function Key Overlays... Could be Navigated with ONLY FUNCTION KEYS!

[@BusWithUs.]

I never had 2 sid chips, so I recall playing left side and recording it and trying to sync playing it back with the right side.

[@jammerc64]

I recommend checking up to date demoscene productions using multiple SIDs ;)

[@retrobitstv]

Now that I have a PAL machine with dual 8580s I have been! I only realized just this moment that one of my favorite 2SID tracks is yours - Gliding Gladly from the 2018 Antipop music collection :D

[@ericbass3349]

The last thing I expected to hear was a Mannheim Steamroller Interlude. Too bad it was just a snippet, because it sounded fantastic

[@retrobitstv]

Unfortunately, even SID renditions of copyright music is flagged by RUclips so I had to keep chopping the songs shorter and shorter till the video passed :(

[@bitoxic]

This was a very interesting video. Music to my ears! 😁👍

[@delscoville]

Ah, Dr J. RIP. I used to do the stereo mod out of my shop back int he day. I even did the mod for a composer that wrote music for his barbershop quartet. Of course a 3-voice chip wasn't going to do for quartet music. I also loved the comuinity the sidplayer had on Q-Link. BTW, Harry Bratt did an awesome stereo version of Axel F. But there was no stereo mod when he did it, it required two Commodore 64's to play it (or a multitrack recorder, which I had).

[@delscoville]

The problem with pulse sweeping is there was no LFO built into the SID chip it had to manually be done through software. But pulse sweep has that awesome synth string sound. I loved using it. But to sound right it really should have a sine wave modulating it.

[@delscoville]

BTW, sadly I never made it out to a Sidfest. I had a lot on my plate at the time, my shop, college, and playing gigs. Granted, I did a lot of partying then too. But traveling just wasn't on my list. Oh, speaking of gigs, I did the stereo mod for a guy that did music at a bar. Ironically a few years later I became friends with his ex-wife's mother who was my landlord. I forget how that came up in a conversation. But it was one of those small-world moments.

[@ps8437]

Thank you 🙏

[@DrDavesDiversions]

Very cool, Matt! Nice hack on Back to the Future!

[@retrobitstv]

Thanks! I got curious why it was the only file I tried that exhibited the problem. Took a few extra hours but it was a fun little rabbit hole to go down.

[@tetsujin_144]

2:36 - "Indeed as a child I had no knowledge of anything else (apart from .MUS)"
That's so weird. I don't remember ever hearing of .MUS, I'm pretty sure I was listening to tunes in .SID form. I guess it's possible I'm mis-remembering? That I actually listened to .MUS when I was using the C64 and C128, but then picked up .SID later when I revisited the platform via emulation and thought it was the same thing?
(EDIT) - Yeah I guess I mis-remembered, and I was listening to .MUS and not .SID back when I actually was using my C128... Weird.

[@retrobitstv]

Yea, we just called them "SIDs" back in the day so it was confusing 30 years later when I got back into Commodores and downloaded a .sid file from the internet and it wouldn't load in the Stereo Player. That's when I learned the awful truth!

[@Mrshoujo]

You can put stereo POKEYs in the Atari 8-bit and it would still have 3 more sound channels than stereo SIDs. The GTIA can generate music, too.

[@ericbass3349]

Yes, but so many tones on that machine were out of tune. It was like a souped-up 2600 sound chip (not that it couldn't produce some good tunes. Ballblazer ranks as one of the greatest musical achievements on any machine). Listen to Hubbard's The Last V8 on Atari 8-bit, and then on C64, and you'll see the difference. I love Atari's little computer, but even with the extra channel (and the SID does have a fourth, undocumented channel, though it can't access the sound bank), it just can't compare to the tonal quality of the SID.

[@mikebell2112]

32 voices would have made my sheet music entries take a lot longer ha. I suppose I should see if my entries survived storage and upload them somewhere, Master of Puppets is popular again.
I happened to be able to ask Dr. J, somewhere somehow, where he got all his sheet music. The reply was, what sheet music? RIP Dr. J5.
If any of my .MUS escaped, Q-Link Calculator or Big Dave Diode.

[@tarstarkusz]

Metalica in glorious 8 bit sid.

[@retrobitstv]

At least a few seconds of it. The first 6 times I uploaded the video it got a copyright flag and I had to cut it shorter and shorter :P

[@KalEl64]

As an avid fan of the Commodore 64, I absolutely LOVED this video. My experience with the SID chip was mostly through demos and games and until relatively recently (within the last couple of years); I had no idea that users of the Commodore 64 had modified their systems to enable stereo sound through dual SID chips. Like many others, the Commodore 64 was the very first computer I ever used and owned, and the SID chip was a huge component in the amazing memories I have of that computer.
I was wondering, though: was the double SID stereo sound that Commodore planned to include in the then upcoming but ultimately unreleased Commodore 65 of the same design that the modders had used back in the day, or was it going to be implemented differently? I've looked up numerous articles and pictures of the prototype motherboard of the Commodore 65, and while the SID section of the motherboard does look similar to what was described and shown in this video, I was curious if the implementation was going to be essentially the same as what the modders had already done or not.
Thank you, Matt, for this amazing video; I learned a lot about the Commodore 64's SID chip and its capabilities that I didn't know before. I'm so glad I subscribed to this channel late last year when I first discovered it; keep up the great work, and take care. 🙂

[@retrobitstv]

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for taking the time to share your experiences!
Unfortunately, I do not really know anything about the Commodore 65 design as I have never seen one in person or used one before, but perhaps someone else can help with your question. If I had to guess, I would suspect you are right though. Apart from the refreshed 8580 SID, Commodore never designed a better 8-bit sound chip and Yannes left the company in 1982, the year the C64 released, so he wouldn't have been involved. Until the Amiga, the SID was the best they had to work with.

[@McKottfars]

I would recommend the "Scroll Machine" tunes by Yip.

[@stevethepocket]

While you were messing around with the _Back to the Future_ song, you should have fixed the wrong note there just before the chorus, heh. Anyway, it's wild that people were doing dual-SID mods even back then. I guess the "SID stereo" option that all the Commodore 64 rips on Zophar's Domain have is that "mirrored with a slight delay" thing you mentioned.

[@pauldeane8369]

Used to load up Enhanced Sid player with some tunes and do my home work. **Nerd alert!** It's how I can play the first few notes of Mr. Roboto.

[@GrumpyBarSteward]

When you said editor 'Orson Scott Card', is the THE Orson scott card that wrote Enders Game?

[@retrobitstv]

The very same! From Wikipedia: "The recession of the early 1980s made it difficult to get contracts for new books so Card returned to full-time employment as the book editor of Compute! magazine that was based in Greensboro, North Carolina, for nine months in 1983."

[@nneeerrrd]

to me, .SID files sound much better. Probably, due to the more close to metal approach, hence better timing and filters control. idk

[@nneeerrrd]

but in .MUS files I don't feel that authentic chip-tune vibes :(
the video is great though!

[@retrobitstv]

Thanks! I feel like .MUS files are kind of like a time capsule: they represent what people (including non-musicians and non-programmers) were doing in the 80s. .SIDs continued to evolve over the years as more modern (e.g. techno, EDM) influences became popular and coders developed more and more advanced techniques to really wring out all the chip could do. There's really no comparing the two at this point but it's fun bit of history for sure!

[@JimLeonard]

How did you simulate accessing the qlink and sig libs on dial-up? Where did the source material come from?

[@retrobitstv]

I used the Quantum Link Reloaded project (q-link.net/) which is accessible via real hardware with a userport WiFi modem or with emulation and TCPser. It's compatible with original Q-Link client software but lacks the actual content of the original. Rumor has it that backups may exist so hopefully someday we'll see the sigs restored; that'd be a cool piece of history. The People Connection chat works and they host a get together on Wednesdays.
As far as source material, are you looking for references? I can send you what I used.

[@JimLeonard]

@@retrobitstv Thanks very much for the pointer!

[@nadadavidovac1560]

Never used this players , but to me Back to the Future did not poping, not sure if it was same file or is it to PAL (slower cpu)

[@jdryyz]

Can you provide a link to the "fixed" BTTF file? Despite having located a .pdf of the original book, I was unable to figure out the editor and make the changes myself.

[@retrobitstv]

I've uploaded to retrobits.tv/bttf_fixed.mus

[@jdryyz]

@@retrobitstv Awesome! Thanks

[@davebrighton3907]

So what's the hardware /software equivalint in th UK and is that something that will play stereo say out of a cart .

[@retrobitstv]

The hardware options are pretty much the same worldwide - the sid2sid and sidfx are both of European origin. Software-wise, "Sidplay64" is pretty much the de facto standard for playing .sid files. Both the player and the format can handle stereo. .sid files are quite different from .mus files though, in that they are more like assembly code being executed instead of a data stream parsed and rendered by the player.

[@electronscape]

did the MUS / STR contain the image data in the files too??

[@retrobitstv]

Good question - images are displayed if an accompanying .PIC/.PCC file is included on the disk. .WDS are also for words, and .ANI for animations.

[@electronscape]

@@retrobitstv OK! started to worry since the STR / MUS files didn't seem big i dont know much about them, the file headers and track info, i believe that the MUS / STR only have the music data, but do not contain the player?

[@retrobitstv]

@@electronscape Correct, those are just the left and right music files. The player is a separate piece of software entirely.

[@electronscape]

@@retrobitstv is the player ALWAYS the same? as some sidplayers can run STR/MUS files (i kinda need it for a project)

[@retrobitstv]

@@electronscape Sorry I totally just saw this question. Yea, the player is always either the Compute Gazette Music System or Stereo Player by Mark Dickenson. I am not aware of any other players that can handle .MUS files.

[@zgolkar]

You trekkie... XD

[@kreatief3836]

ruclips.net/video/Wvt8gLRdUKg/видео.html&ab_channel=HouseDesigns
STEREO MUSIC IN DEMO (2*C64)

[@wlorenz65]

8:47 "Finally, we can test out our changes with the built-in player" ... OK, got it: You are the bad guy from the game Jammin' who stole the instrument.

[@infinitecanadian]

What song is at 5:24?

[@retrobitstv]

The song is called Sunbeam and it's one of the sample songs that came on the Music System disk. deepsid.chordian.net/?file=Compute%27s%20Gazette%20SID%20Collection/Synthax_-Mark_Hazen-/Sunbeam.mus

[@infinitecanadian]

@@retrobitstv Thank you!