I agree with you on not needing to change your character just to do some extra damage, but i think that most 2024 changes (yes, including the smite changes) opened up more options for playing a paladin, which is objectively a good thing. For example, my current character is a dex-based dagger-throwing vengeance paladin and playing him has been very fun . Mechanically, he's similar to your dual wielding build in the video, but just with more range, which allows him to get more of the party in his aura of protection, and he smites on crits (every smite spell says that the attack must be with a melee weapon, and daggers are considered melee weapons even if you throw them), and frankly i can't imagine trying to play a character like with the 2014 rules.
Daggers are d4 tho... Monks scale weapon die so by lvl 10 or 11 daggers and fists are d10s and they can attack 5 times per turn... sorry, 6 times 2 with extra attack+ 1 nick attack and flurry of blows at 11 is 3 unarmed strikes. Im not saying you shouldn't play paladins as you are doing... im saying mathematically it is comparatively underwhelming. Heck, earlier today I was looking at a way to deal the most dies with a crit. Which is a flametongue maul using true strike or gfb 2d6 bludge +2d6 fire + cantrip added die. Have that on a sorlock so you can hold monster or person and then deal 12d6+15. Elemental affinity on gfb +5 Agonising blast gfb +5 Blade pact +5.
Oooo that does sound like a fun build to play! And, for the record, I'm really happy with the 2024 rules--including the smite changes. I just wish it didn't use our bonus action as that felt like a step too far.
Paladins are like the 3rd best class in the game in 2024…great DPR, insanely durability, great buffs…the class legitimately lacks any real weaknesses. Wizard and Sorcerer are just OP. Wizard has absolutely nutty levels of versatility, while the raw power of Sorcerers, due to Innate Sorcery at level 1 and Heightened Spell Metamagic at level 3, makes the Sorcerer the most powerful battlefield controller, they always have a +1 to their Spell Save DC compared to other classes at EVERY level. Then you add on the subcless picks where Wizards and Sorcerers have no bad picks while Paladins have a clear hierarchy with Vengeance reigning supreme due to the, truly insane, buffs to Vow of Enmity. WOTC took the paladins power budget out of Smite, and put it in the subclass features, they just kinda cane up short with 2 of them.
Paladin is probably the third strongest class now behind Wizard and Sorcerer. Very few weaknesses. Lot's of versatility. Still tons of damage. It just comes slower over time instead of in big bursts now. You also buff the whole party just by being there.
I think it depends on how you measure the Paladin's features. If we're talking about auras, Paladin is ridiculous. But people tend to focus on damage output and there are more than just a couple classes that outpace it there.
@@ConstructedChaos yeah, I value overall utility. The game is much more than math. Paladins get auras, they can act as party face, and pick up downed allies with a bonus action then go right back to the dealing damage. No other martial in the game gets this big of a toolset.
@@KarlMarkyMarxx I completely agree with you. Even in my 2014 Paladin guide, I mostly focused on how strong auras are. I don't think smites were ever their best ability.
I also prefer the flavor of a ranger typically. I will never understand why divine favor doesn't need concentration but hunters mark does--even when the whole class is built around it.
Yes indeed! You'll have to forgive my lazy math haha. I estimated a lot because I didn't want this video to get too bogged down in probability and statistics. But, I definitely didn't forget about topple! I did mention early on that it becomes really helpful once we get more than one attack.
@ It’s also helpful if you have more than one party member who can do decent melee damage. Even a caster with True Strike can do respectable damage to a prone opponent in melee, without burning a spell slot.
As a long time Paladin player, I would like to venture that Divine Favor is not a new spell. I have been using it for years, as opposed to always simply smiting and blowing the spell on a single hit. The big difference is that in 2014 Divine Favor was a Concentration spell, while is is not in 2024, so it's less likely to be lost if you get hit. That said, in a combat with non undead or fiendish opponents, doing an extra 1d4 Radiant damage in every round has always seemed more effective than an extra 2D8 on one hit, making a Smite something to hold on to until the Paladin got a Critical hit, at which time the Divine Favor dice doubles as well.
Slight but important thing. In 2014, there was Sage Advice that specifically outlawed Great Weapon Fighting from working with anything but the weapon dice itself. This prevented features like Hex, Smites, etc, from working with it. There is no Sage Advice for 2024 yet, however Great Weapon Fighter hasn't meaningfully changed enough in its wording to believe that this Sage Advice is no longer relevant. Thus, using it for Divine Favor may not actually work.
Very good point and I wouldn't say it's slight at all! I had no idea about that sage advice since I didn't use the old divine favor much or at all. Still, I'd argue that the wording did change a fair amount. As I understand it, the old ruling was due largely in part to the need to reroll so many dice. The new version no longer requires you to reroll so I wonder if that was a conscious effort by the designers. I could be giving them too much credit, though.
@@BlazeLycan to be honest though, GWF style is so rubbish (like, actually got mathematically worse from 2014-2024 according to Treantmonk) I don't think it would be game breaking to house rule that it would work with any additional die as part of the attack with a weapon held in two hands.
Weapon juggling is ludicrous, and I will never play at a table that allows it. I can't imagine anyone making the rules intending that to ever be a thing.
@@allynborland that’s all fine and good haha. I believe that the rule was intended in a way that would make swapping weapons and casting spells easier to manage. You’re probably right that it wasn’t exactly meant to go to the full extent that I’ve taken it. But, hey, when has that stopped anyone in the past? At the end of the day, I’m just the messenger. I allow that sort of thing at my table but you certainly don’t have to and I absolutely respect your decision.
i liked bramble , and he made a good example (if you watched the stream) , good info as i've been playing around with PC builds , . great video , kudos to you sir .
I think its great that on the whole, whatever playstyle you pick Paladin's roughly do about the same damage for most tables which is still a damn lot! Also limiting the ridiculous nova potential from 2014 which helps the rest of the party shine. All in all super fun to play!
@@ConstructedChaos truly the front line glue holding the party together! (Or be crazy and play a ranged Dex ancients paladin using ensnaring strike and divine favour and strengthen the backline 🤷🏽♂️😂)
@@ConstructedChaos it's now essentially a "smite spell" that inflicts restrained and ongoing damage if they fail the save. I've got a ranger in my game that has used this to great effect to selectively crowd control high value targets for the party. Unfortunately requires concentration...which is annoying for the ranger's Hunters mark but no issue for the Paladin's divine favour!
The fact that the Paladin can't smite on every attack now REALLY shouldn't be a contentious thing. *It's a good thing!* Change is good. Yes, the new rules still aren't too balanced, but the point of it was to get rid of a lot of "must have options". And for paladins, I think it's definitely done that. At least, it's closer to that than it used to be. Idk, the 2024 rules still feel like a mess for a whole slew of different reasons now.
I agree that the nerf to paladins’ burst damage was needed. As we progressed through Curse of Strahd, it became harder for my DM to balance encounters to compensate for my paladin with insane attribute rolls (his lowest stat was 14) and the Alert feat. Ruardhi could take out the boss before anyone else even had a turn. I had to adjust my play style so others could get in on the action, and my DM had to string out combat encounters, so that we would face the boss with the paladin not having any spell slots left for smiting.
The optimized burst damage from the previous edition was flat out bad game design as was the nonsense about declaring a smite after a hit and then doubling it when rolling critical hits. The 2024 is better design by allowing options, and officially closes those exploits.
I couldn't agree more! I just wish it didn't eat the Paladin's bonus action to smite. It would have been easy to just say they only get to smite once per turn, on their turn. Still, Paladin isn't in a bad spot. It's pretty balanced as is with everything else it has.
Honestly, I'm 10 times more likely to do a 6/14 Paladin/Warlock multiclass in the new rules than I ever would have in 2014. My ONLY real complaint is nerfing the Ancient Paladin's level 7 ward (instead of resistance to spells it's resistance to radiant, necrotic & psychic) Also, I ran a thought experiment for who has the most self sustain & realized that for the Ancient Paladin's 10 points of health regeneration per turn at level 20 (1 minute transformation; can use again with level 5 spell slots), it triggers the effect of the Epic Boon of Fortitude, which means that you can (with 20 constitution & the Tough feat) have an average of 305 HP (325 with a Dwarf) & heal 15 of it per turn for an entire minute. Even if you're unlucky & roll a 1 on EVERY SINGLE HIT DICE on short rests, you're healing a minimum of 670 HP per day between Elder Champion (free & both level 5 spell slots), Fortitude, Healing Hands & your hit dice.
That's a sweet combo you found for the oath of ancients! They're probably still the weakest subclass for Paladins in 2024 but I'm so fond of the flavor that I don't care haha.
Nice video. I’m in the midst of play testing a vengeance paladin for a one shot, will start at level 9, may get to level 10 during the game. I actually changed the build from a dual wielder to GWM because the turns were taking too long and I didn’t want to slow down the play at the table. The adapted build is doing lots of damage, demand for the bonus action is still high and turns go rather smoothly. I do miss the juggling/shield AC bonus, but it also didn’t feel right/probably would not have worked at the table, regardless about RAW. Your absolutely correct- it’s not all about damage- it’s about what makes for a fun time & good story.
I stick by that limiting smites per round is great. Doing it so by making it a bonus action is not. Especially when Eldritch smite and sneak attack already have the right framework.
Good points. As far as math goes, you’ve got nothing on Chris from Treantmonk’s Temple. Did you watch any of his build damage videos? It’s enough math for several lifetimes at least. That’s way too much for me, but I watched them and tuned out until the end for the graphs and conclusions. So, paladins…I’ve usually played something else tbh. I had/have one in semi retirement in AL. A Watchers oath that was just a sword and board tank. Personally, I feel like a paladin feels and looks like a heavy weapon or shield user. Since nova damage was nerfed with the new rules, it doesn’t really matter what style you play now, they’re all fairly similar. I guess that’s what they wanted.
I absolutely do watch Chris’s videos. I’ve been a fan of his channel for a while now! I did do a good bit of probability math on the backend but my channel isn’t quite as crunchy as his so I didn’t want to cover all of it here. Still, a lot of what I do know about damage calculations do come from watching his stuff! 😊
That was a goal - to keep all the damage more of less in the same area and not have winners and losers. Like if you were going to be a Ranger a lot of people only saw three valid ways to do it. If you wanted a powerful Cleric pull out Tasha and pick one. Want to be a Paladin - you must be Vengeance or Oath Breaker. Etc., etc. But with the levels close, the deciding factor would be the flavor and the party role the person wanted to play,
dice sizes can always be changed every d10 and d12 can be a d6 and have a basic standard damage like maul does 2 blugeoning damage +2d6 of concussive blugeoning damage represented by the new topple weapon mastery. great axe is 1d12 well it could be 4 +2d6 slashing cleave damage. if the issue is base damage roll then add a minimum damage cap the weapon can do no less damage than. i like trauma and disabling enemies with strategic placed strikes to critical limbs i added all damage types to every weapon but a precise damage for them too. using BLUDGEON/SLASHING/PIERCING dagger 1/1/1 +1d6 piercing So dagger always does 3 damage unless creature has a resistance or immunity. adding direct damage also guarantees damage even thru armor or ac so D2/D2/1 +1d6 piercing guarantees bludgeon damage and slashing damage if piercing didnt pierce the armor or ac. (unless they are immune or resistant to the type of damage) and the precision damage is determine by the size and category of weapon light and one handed are piercing unless also two hand3d. now it prioritizes slashing or bludgeoning if heavy. martial can prioritize slashing or piercing unless heavy they are bludgeoning instead of piercing disabling a limb is automatic disadvantage to hit but injury is slow or disadvantage to attack with said injured limb till injury is treated and stabilized or healed or regenerated. trauma to limb causes max movement speed loss or you cant attack with that limb or penalty to dexterity or strength checks equal the precise direct damage inflicted. severing a limb you cant use that limb and gain bleed and any item on limb is considered unattuned and unequipped. every class prioritized defences from severing or trauma barbarian doesnt bleed and has regen on limbs if traumatized or injured. paladins have armor and dont get severed unless critical attack was precise slashing or vorpal blade was used. and they lessen their injury or trauma by one level. yes we got this from daggerheart threshold damage. druid also has regen but also cant be severed and they have bark skin and shield on limbs when in wildshape. technically they cant be severed because their limbs count as prosthetic limb weapons using natural druidic magic to impede disabilities. although you are vulnerable in human form to losing a limb bonus you can wildshape as a reaction to run away hide and heal as part of the dissability. once healed druid can reattach limb or make a stronger druidic prosthetic weapon. fighter has action surge reactions one per limb to catch a blade or take 2 injuries instead of a trauma and take 2 traumas instead of a severed limb yes in order to decapitate a fighter you have to decapitate him with 5 tries at disadvantage. a ranger is blessed with passive perception sense of harm yes spidey sense to avoid severing a limb. but also their expertise allowed them to modify their limbs and add implants that impede trauma or severing. your expertise can be weaponize to create arm blades or leg blades instead of the natural bone structure would be by transmutation and alchemic expertise of any terrains natural transmutative elemental properties. oh we added sand glass metal and wood and blood to element damage types your class or species can allow access to this new elemental damage types instead of spells standard elemental damage. ranger uses the elements to make arrows and blades sharper or fire arrows or infuse weapons with poison acid or craft healing arrows from its expertise on transmutative properties ranger is a expert in using glass fungi sand dirt and metal and wood to craft disguise with transmutation alchemy. at lv 10 they can transmutate the shadows to stay in darkness while they hide or rest in cities and ruins. the cleric is blessed to be bite proof with arms and legs of divine ward functions like arcane ward but for overhealing your arms and legs are considered shield you cant even break legs from fall damage as long as you stay conscious it becomes injuries but you are slowed and have regen if a fall could kill you, you gain lesser divine intervention to cast a spell you know if you chouse correct and survived the fall damage you walk away slowly. if your cleric was born legless or armless or paralyzed you regain the ability to walk and either hands of energy or prosthetics are materialized by your god. funny or sad a trickster god might give you limps of shadow or vines or sand or water or fragile glass. or you get prosthetics infused by your order you studied under. (you can choose wheelchair if you want and it becomes a part of you and you move it with your movement speed if you cant move it with your hands) warlock gets interesting and backwards you cant severe a warlock it would defy the will of their patron they alter the limbs in a way to only allow injuries. but limbs can be severed by choice to become patron flavored familiars. hands and feet are tiny legs and arms are small and bonus this familiars could as the warlock for casting spell or attuning to items or having magic item buffs the warlock has. wizard is cool they dont take injuries or trauma its automatic severing but neck voice are shielded and mage armored while hands are considered mage hand and losing a leg immediately casts a floating disk aslong as your spellbook is in your possession you can burn a spell to cast featherfall or create water or control water or cast gust or create bonfire or web and use careful casting to be immune to your spell sorcerer also vulnerable to severe but they can burn a limb to cast a spell with a 12 hour duration spell is limited to cantrip or half your proficiency bonus rounded up to a even result. while missing a limb you have automatic use of one metamagic option
id prefer unarmed and true strike and you can still smite at advantage to hit and crit and use spellcasting trait and allows you try to roll 18 for wisdom ability or primal savage 1d10 and still smite also uses spell casting ability
Haha don’t be sorry! I’m happy you’re interested! I played him in our recent Into the Fey campaign that my wife DM’d: ruclips.net/p/PLeB5owQ4Z8vittaMN6SGADTKrfvWOaogH&si=KPt8MWpepRycaDRv
Hahahaha generally I do like the 2024 ruleset. It *is* more balanced than 2014. I think they did a decent job but there are still some changes that left me scratching my head.
@ConstructedChaos Nah, I agree. I just like to give Paladins a hard time. I agree that making it a bonus action was goofy, when they could have done like the Strike of The Giants, or the Goliath abilities of "Once per turn, when you attack." Would have been a nerf to the nova damage, without knocking out the knees.
In playing paladin vs my dm who hates paladins from 2014 and I’m pissing him off with my 2024 paladin archery hex combo teleporting and making it so his fighters have to focus on me and can’t do anything because 25 ac and others at 28 ac. And attack them at disadvantage all the time
Did Armor get buffed? 18 AC with starting gear and without shield is pretty good. Normally its more like 15-17 since you dont have the Best starting Armor... Especially when playing a Rodent. Well at least in 2014 edition... get a Cantrip for example from Magic Initate, use Booming blade, push him every Time and Profit. Even so it is kind of a waste for someone with Multiattack. But yeah, 2hand weapons of course lost their Bite when they nerved the Heavy weapon Mastery feat. Its no Suprise really. Barbarians probably have the same issue. the Heavy weapon feat was literally the only thing which made 2-handed Weapons viable is 2014. You think i trade one extra attack, or +2 to +5 Armor (depending on shield) to a dice upgrade from 1d8 to 1d12? aka 2 dmg? No sir.
I think it depends on how you measure the Paladin's features. If we're talking about auras, Paladin is ridiculous. But people tend to focus on damage output and there are more than just a couple classes that outpace it there.
in reality to optimize you shouldnt be a paladin harengon but goliath becoming huge, or a fairy duergar or high elf for enlarge or true strike. if the point is to hit hard and smite then go heavy 2handed with cleave or nick and bigger weapon means bigger crits and guaranteed advantage means more crits. harengon should only be paladin as a tank support spell caster for optimization for its mobility can control the field and you can force enemy movement, but you wont be optimized for smites or melee brawling.
That's a great observation! I kept the species the same on both builds so that I could really focus in on the difference that dual wielding makes and the first build was just because I wanted to play a harengon paladin with a big hammer lol
I will say that the math does matter but it is NOT the main thing. I think everyone on D&D tube has put out this same message - it is not just about damage. It is a lot of things that make a good character but the three that matter most is that the the player enjoys it, the character helps the team and that it is reasonable at the role you want to play. I mean you can use a really annoying voice and drive your friends crazy if you keep those three things in mind it is all good.
I do still hate how for the most part, not just on paladin, that you have to use your bonus action just to keep up with 2handed. With a bunch of added dice it starts getting ahead, but as soon as 2hand gets that bonus action attack from a crit or kill, it just blows dual wielding out of the water. Not to mention once magic weapons start factoring in. Lot easier to get one strong 2hander and have less attunement eaten up. Overall, I think DW is really only better on classes that don't really have much to do with their bonus action and mechanics/spells where they can a lot of dice per hit.
That's a totally fair assessment but I will also remind that DW gives 3 chances to hit without your bonus action. Against a particularly challenging foe, I might prefer 3 chances to get a smite or crit in over just 2. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference haha.
I think that removing the thing that makes a class shine in combat is generally bad idea. There isnt much i can do with 2024 paladin that i couldnt with 2014. I still think the most fun tables will be the ones that mix 2024 and 2014 content.
That's a fair assessment but the paladin does also have a LOT more going for it than just smites. I'm not mad that we can't smite more than once per turn, I just wish it didn't take a bonus action.
@ConstructedChaos agreed. Not only can you not "mag dump" as it were with smites, but you still lose a spell slot, the ability to cast that turn, the ability to smite on opportunity attacks, and any potential bonus action ability or attack. This, imo was the worst possible solution to a problem that could've been fixed by adding "once per turn". Without a doubt, the support/ tank paladin was untouched and even improved in some places, but I don't know that I'd be willing to lose good damage for a couple more spells. If im not mistaken, you could pull off the same build on a bard or warlock and still be a full caster.
100% agree. "Don't let the math stop you."
All about having fun at the end of the day!
I agree with you on not needing to change your character just to do some extra damage, but i think that most 2024 changes (yes, including the smite changes) opened up more options for playing a paladin, which is objectively a good thing. For example, my current character is a dex-based dagger-throwing vengeance paladin and playing him has been very fun . Mechanically, he's similar to your dual wielding build in the video, but just with more range, which allows him to get more of the party in his aura of protection, and he smites on crits (every smite spell says that the attack must be with a melee weapon, and daggers are considered melee weapons even if you throw them), and frankly i can't imagine trying to play a character like with the 2014 rules.
Daggers are d4 tho... Monks scale weapon die so by lvl 10 or 11 daggers and fists are d10s and they can attack 5 times per turn... sorry, 6 times
2 with extra attack+ 1 nick attack and flurry of blows at 11 is 3 unarmed strikes.
Im not saying you shouldn't play paladins as you are doing... im saying mathematically it is comparatively underwhelming.
Heck, earlier today I was looking at a way to deal the most dies with a crit.
Which is a flametongue maul using true strike or gfb
2d6 bludge +2d6 fire + cantrip added die. Have that on a sorlock so you can hold monster or person and then deal 12d6+15.
Elemental affinity on gfb +5
Agonising blast gfb +5
Blade pact +5.
Oooo that does sound like a fun build to play! And, for the record, I'm really happy with the 2024 rules--including the smite changes. I just wish it didn't use our bonus action as that felt like a step too far.
Paladins are like the 3rd best class in the game in 2024…great DPR, insanely durability, great buffs…the class legitimately lacks any real weaknesses. Wizard and Sorcerer are just OP. Wizard has absolutely nutty levels of versatility, while the raw power of Sorcerers, due to Innate Sorcery at level 1 and Heightened Spell Metamagic at level 3, makes the Sorcerer the most powerful battlefield controller, they always have a +1 to their Spell Save DC compared to other classes at EVERY level. Then you add on the subcless picks where Wizards and Sorcerers have no bad picks while Paladins have a clear hierarchy with Vengeance reigning supreme due to the, truly insane, buffs to Vow of Enmity. WOTC took the paladins power budget out of Smite, and put it in the subclass features, they just kinda cane up short with 2 of them.
Paladin is probably the third strongest class now behind Wizard and Sorcerer. Very few weaknesses. Lot's of versatility. Still tons of damage. It just comes slower over time instead of in big bursts now. You also buff the whole party just by being there.
I think it depends on how you measure the Paladin's features. If we're talking about auras, Paladin is ridiculous. But people tend to focus on damage output and there are more than just a couple classes that outpace it there.
@@ConstructedChaos yeah, I value overall utility. The game is much more than math. Paladins get auras, they can act as party face, and pick up downed allies with a bonus action then go right back to the dealing damage. No other martial in the game gets this big of a toolset.
@@KarlMarkyMarxx I completely agree with you. Even in my 2014 Paladin guide, I mostly focused on how strong auras are. I don't think smites were ever their best ability.
The clip of Brett saying “you know everything you are? Don’t” never fails to make me laugh out loud
@@Tidesofmo haha yall had so many good quips with Bramble but I think that was one of my favorites.
As a ranger player i cannot fathom paladins rn oml
I also prefer the flavor of a ranger typically. I will never understand why divine favor doesn't need concentration but hunters mark does--even when the whole class is built around it.
@ REAL. Even hexblades curse has a more hunters mark feel to it 😭
Paladins will always be popular because they’re just an awesome class and feel good to play. Great roleplay opportunities as well
Absolutely! I think we've had 3 paladins in our games since the 2024 rules released!
Great Weapon Fighting really only works out well with Greatsword and Maul.
Also don’t forget that you are getting advantage from any enemy you topple.
Yes indeed! You'll have to forgive my lazy math haha. I estimated a lot because I didn't want this video to get too bogged down in probability and statistics. But, I definitely didn't forget about topple! I did mention early on that it becomes really helpful once we get more than one attack.
@ It’s also helpful if you have more than one party member who can do decent melee damage. Even a caster with True Strike can do respectable damage to a prone opponent in melee, without burning a spell slot.
@@ThatGuy182545 That's true too, yeah! Sometimes I forget that I'm looking at a character in a vacuum with these builds.
As a long time Paladin player, I would like to venture that Divine Favor is not a new spell. I have been using it for years, as opposed to always simply smiting and blowing the spell on a single hit. The big difference is that in 2014 Divine Favor was a Concentration spell, while is is not in 2024, so it's less likely to be lost if you get hit. That said, in a combat with non undead or fiendish opponents, doing an extra 1d4 Radiant damage in every round has always seemed more effective than an extra 2D8 on one hit, making a Smite something to hold on to until the Paladin got a Critical hit, at which time the Divine Favor dice doubles as well.
Haha that's fair! It probably just feels new to me since I didn't use divine favor in 2014 due to the concentration requirement.
Slight but important thing. In 2014, there was Sage Advice that specifically outlawed Great Weapon Fighting from working with anything but the weapon dice itself. This prevented features like Hex, Smites, etc, from working with it.
There is no Sage Advice for 2024 yet, however Great Weapon Fighter hasn't meaningfully changed enough in its wording to believe that this Sage Advice is no longer relevant. Thus, using it for Divine Favor may not actually work.
Very good point and I wouldn't say it's slight at all! I had no idea about that sage advice since I didn't use the old divine favor much or at all. Still, I'd argue that the wording did change a fair amount. As I understand it, the old ruling was due largely in part to the need to reroll so many dice. The new version no longer requires you to reroll so I wonder if that was a conscious effort by the designers. I could be giving them too much credit, though.
@@BlazeLycan to be honest though, GWF style is so rubbish (like, actually got mathematically worse from 2014-2024 according to Treantmonk) I don't think it would be game breaking to house rule that it would work with any additional die as part of the attack with a weapon held in two hands.
Weapon juggling is ludicrous, and I will never play at a table that allows it. I can't imagine anyone making the rules intending that to ever be a thing.
@@allynborland that’s all fine and good haha. I believe that the rule was intended in a way that would make swapping weapons and casting spells easier to manage. You’re probably right that it wasn’t exactly meant to go to the full extent that I’ve taken it. But, hey, when has that stopped anyone in the past?
At the end of the day, I’m just the messenger. I allow that sort of thing at my table but you certainly don’t have to and I absolutely respect your decision.
i liked bramble , and he made a good example (if you watched the stream) , good info as i've been playing around with PC builds ,
. great video , kudos to you sir .
@@Grymreefer Thanks Grym! It was really fun playing him and he was a pretty effective paladin all things considered!
I think its great that on the whole, whatever playstyle you pick Paladin's roughly do about the same damage for most tables which is still a damn lot!
Also limiting the ridiculous nova potential from 2014 which helps the rest of the party shine.
All in all super fun to play!
Very well said! And, none of this touches on the Paladin's other features like their steed and aura effects. It's still a fantastic class!
@@ConstructedChaos truly the front line glue holding the party together!
(Or be crazy and play a ranged Dex ancients paladin using ensnaring strike and divine favour and strengthen the backline 🤷🏽♂️😂)
@@Silverythoughts Do people still like ensnaring strike? I haven't used it because I don't like how it looks on paper.
@@ConstructedChaos it's now essentially a "smite spell" that inflicts restrained and ongoing damage if they fail the save.
I've got a ranger in my game that has used this to great effect to selectively crowd control high value targets for the party. Unfortunately requires concentration...which is annoying for the ranger's Hunters mark but no issue for the Paladin's divine favour!
@@Silverythoughts I just don't like that it's essentially a save or suck spell that even gives advantage to creatures bigger than medium size.
I have a Paladin in my campaign and they are starting at level 1 the plan is to go to level 20
Good luck and have fun.
Sounds like an epic adventure! I've never gone all the way from level 1 to level 20 myself!
The fact that the Paladin can't smite on every attack now REALLY shouldn't be a contentious thing. *It's a good thing!* Change is good. Yes, the new rules still aren't too balanced, but the point of it was to get rid of a lot of "must have options". And for paladins, I think it's definitely done that. At least, it's closer to that than it used to be. Idk, the 2024 rules still feel like a mess for a whole slew of different reasons now.
I completely agree that smiting only once per turn is a good move. But, having smites eat your bonus action feels like a step too far IMO.
Yes, feel the power of the Dexadin!
Haha the Dexadin--I love it!
I agree that the nerf to paladins’ burst damage was needed. As we progressed through Curse of Strahd, it became harder for my DM to balance encounters to compensate for my paladin with insane attribute rolls (his lowest stat was 14) and the Alert feat. Ruardhi could take out the boss before anyone else even had a turn. I had to adjust my play style so others could get in on the action, and my DM had to string out combat encounters, so that we would face the boss with the paladin not having any spell slots left for smiting.
I couldn't agree more. I'm not really THAT upset that we can't smite more than once per turn now. I just wish it didn't take our bonus action.
The optimized burst damage from the previous edition was flat out bad game design as was the nonsense about declaring a smite after a hit and then doubling it when rolling critical hits. The 2024 is better design by allowing options, and officially closes those exploits.
I couldn't agree more! I just wish it didn't eat the Paladin's bonus action to smite. It would have been easy to just say they only get to smite once per turn, on their turn. Still, Paladin isn't in a bad spot. It's pretty balanced as is with everything else it has.
Honestly, I'm 10 times more likely to do a 6/14 Paladin/Warlock multiclass in the new rules than I ever would have in 2014. My ONLY real complaint is nerfing the Ancient Paladin's level 7 ward (instead of resistance to spells it's resistance to radiant, necrotic & psychic)
Also, I ran a thought experiment for who has the most self sustain & realized that for the Ancient Paladin's 10 points of health regeneration per turn at level 20 (1 minute transformation; can use again with level 5 spell slots), it triggers the effect of the Epic Boon of Fortitude, which means that you can (with 20 constitution & the Tough feat) have an average of 305 HP (325 with a Dwarf) & heal 15 of it per turn for an entire minute. Even if you're unlucky & roll a 1 on EVERY SINGLE HIT DICE on short rests, you're healing a minimum of 670 HP per day between Elder Champion (free & both level 5 spell slots), Fortitude, Healing Hands & your hit dice.
That's a sweet combo you found for the oath of ancients! They're probably still the weakest subclass for Paladins in 2024 but I'm so fond of the flavor that I don't care haha.
Nice video. I’m in the midst of play testing a vengeance paladin for a one shot, will start at level 9, may get to level 10 during the game. I actually changed the build from a dual wielder to GWM because the turns were taking too long and I didn’t want to slow down the play at the table. The adapted build is doing lots of damage, demand for the bonus action is still high and turns go rather smoothly. I do miss the juggling/shield AC bonus, but it also didn’t feel right/probably would not have worked at the table, regardless about RAW. Your absolutely correct- it’s not all about damage- it’s about what makes for a fun time & good story.
HUMANITY HAS LEARNED HOW BUSTED DIVINE FAVOR
Haha I wouldn't call it busted but I do wonder why hunter's mark need concentration but divine favor doesn't.
I stick by that limiting smites per round is great. Doing it so by making it a bonus action is not.
Especially when Eldritch smite and sneak attack already have the right framework.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more!
Good points. As far as math goes, you’ve got nothing on Chris from Treantmonk’s Temple.
Did you watch any of his build damage videos?
It’s enough math for several lifetimes at least.
That’s way too much for me, but I watched them and tuned out until the end for the graphs and conclusions.
So, paladins…I’ve usually played something else tbh.
I had/have one in semi retirement in AL.
A Watchers oath that was just a sword and board tank.
Personally, I feel like a paladin feels and looks like a heavy weapon or shield user.
Since nova damage was nerfed with the new rules, it doesn’t really matter what style you play now, they’re all fairly similar.
I guess that’s what they wanted.
I absolutely do watch Chris’s videos. I’ve been a fan of his channel for a while now! I did do a good bit of probability math on the backend but my channel isn’t quite as crunchy as his so I didn’t want to cover all of it here.
Still, a lot of what I do know about damage calculations do come from watching his stuff! 😊
That was a goal - to keep all the damage more of less in the same area and not have winners and losers. Like if you were going to be a Ranger a lot of people only saw three valid ways to do it. If you wanted a powerful Cleric pull out Tasha and pick one. Want to be a Paladin - you must be Vengeance or Oath Breaker.
Etc., etc.
But with the levels close, the deciding factor would be the flavor and the party role the person wanted to play,
12:05 18.55%|33.66% it's close to 25 if 1/2 the attacks have advantage
@@ggfrt96 correct! 🫡
dice sizes can always be changed
every d10 and d12 can be a d6 and have a basic standard damage like
maul does 2 blugeoning damage +2d6 of concussive blugeoning damage represented by the new topple weapon mastery.
great axe is 1d12 well it could be 4 +2d6 slashing cleave damage.
if the issue is base damage roll then add a minimum damage cap the weapon can do no less damage than.
i like trauma and disabling enemies with strategic placed strikes to critical limbs
i added all damage types to every weapon but a precise damage for them too.
using BLUDGEON/SLASHING/PIERCING
dagger 1/1/1 +1d6 piercing
So dagger always does 3 damage unless creature has a resistance or immunity.
adding direct damage also guarantees damage even thru armor or ac
so D2/D2/1 +1d6 piercing
guarantees bludgeon damage and slashing damage if piercing didnt pierce the armor or ac. (unless they are immune or resistant to the type of damage)
and the precision damage is determine by the size and category of weapon
light and one handed are piercing unless also two hand3d. now it prioritizes slashing or bludgeoning if heavy.
martial can prioritize slashing or piercing unless heavy they are bludgeoning instead of piercing
disabling a limb is automatic disadvantage to hit but
injury is slow or disadvantage to attack with said injured limb till injury is treated and stabilized or healed or regenerated.
trauma to limb causes max movement speed loss or you cant attack with that limb or penalty to dexterity or strength checks equal the precise direct damage inflicted.
severing a limb you cant use that limb and gain bleed and any item on limb is considered unattuned and unequipped.
every class prioritized defences from severing or trauma
barbarian doesnt bleed and has regen on limbs if traumatized or injured.
paladins have armor and dont get severed unless critical attack was precise slashing or vorpal blade was used. and they lessen their injury or trauma by one level.
yes we got this from daggerheart threshold damage.
druid also has regen but also cant be severed and they have bark skin and shield on limbs when in wildshape.
technically they cant be severed because their limbs count as prosthetic limb weapons using natural druidic magic to impede disabilities. although you are vulnerable in human form to losing a limb bonus you can wildshape as a reaction to run away hide and heal as part of the dissability.
once healed druid can reattach limb or make a stronger druidic prosthetic weapon.
fighter has action surge reactions one per limb to catch a blade or take 2 injuries instead of a trauma and take 2 traumas instead of a severed limb
yes in order to decapitate a fighter you have to decapitate him with 5 tries at disadvantage.
a ranger is blessed with passive perception sense of harm yes spidey sense to avoid severing a limb.
but also their expertise allowed them to modify their limbs and add implants that impede trauma or severing.
your expertise can be weaponize to create arm blades or leg blades instead of the natural bone structure would be by transmutation and alchemic expertise of any terrains natural transmutative elemental properties.
oh we added sand glass metal and wood and blood to element damage types
your class or species can allow access to this new elemental damage types instead of spells standard elemental damage.
ranger uses the elements to make arrows and blades sharper or fire arrows or infuse weapons with poison acid or craft healing arrows from its expertise on transmutative properties
ranger is a expert in using glass fungi sand dirt and metal and wood to craft disguise with transmutation alchemy.
at lv 10 they can transmutate the shadows to stay in darkness while they hide or rest in cities and ruins.
the cleric is blessed to be bite proof with arms and legs of divine ward
functions like arcane ward but for overhealing your arms and legs are considered shield
you cant even break legs from fall damage as long as you stay conscious it becomes injuries but you are slowed and have regen if a fall could kill you, you gain lesser divine intervention to cast a spell you know if you chouse correct and survived the fall damage you walk away slowly.
if your cleric was born legless or armless or paralyzed you regain the ability to walk and either hands of energy or prosthetics are materialized by your god.
funny or sad a trickster god might give you limps of shadow or vines or sand or water or fragile glass. or you get prosthetics infused by your order you studied under.
(you can choose wheelchair if you want and it becomes a part of you and you move it with your movement speed if you cant move it with your hands)
warlock gets interesting and backwards you cant severe a warlock it would defy the will of their patron they alter the limbs in a way to only allow injuries.
but limbs can be severed by choice to become patron flavored familiars.
hands and feet are tiny
legs and arms are small
and bonus this familiars could as the warlock for casting spell or attuning to items or having magic item buffs the warlock has.
wizard is cool
they dont take injuries or trauma its automatic severing but neck voice are shielded and mage armored
while hands are considered mage hand and losing a leg immediately casts a floating disk
aslong as your spellbook is in your possession you can burn a spell to cast featherfall or create water or control water or cast gust or create bonfire or web and use careful casting to be immune to your spell
sorcerer also vulnerable to severe but they can burn a limb to cast a spell with a 12 hour duration spell is limited to cantrip or half your proficiency bonus rounded up to a even result. while missing a limb you have automatic use of one metamagic option
I am here.
Let's see how to paladin...
We know you love paladins!!!! ❤
@@Jason-96 haha ask and ye shall receive! Expect a full Paladin guide within the month as well!
id prefer unarmed and true strike and you can still smite at advantage to hit and crit and use spellcasting trait and allows you try to roll 18 for wisdom ability
or primal savage 1d10 and still smite also uses spell casting ability
True Strike being one of the best cantrips in 2024 DND was not on my bingo card, for sure.
im sorry what game is bramble from i must see this
Haha don’t be sorry! I’m happy you’re interested! I played him in our recent Into the Fey campaign that my wife DM’d:
ruclips.net/p/PLeB5owQ4Z8vittaMN6SGADTKrfvWOaogH&si=KPt8MWpepRycaDRv
"You mean I can't multiclass hexblade/paladin/assassin rogue and 100% to 0 an adult white dragon in 1 turn? Wizards ruined dnd."
Hahahaha generally I do like the 2024 ruleset. It *is* more balanced than 2014. I think they did a decent job but there are still some changes that left me scratching my head.
@ConstructedChaos Nah, I agree. I just like to give Paladins a hard time. I agree that making it a bonus action was goofy, when they could have done like the Strike of The Giants, or the Goliath abilities of "Once per turn, when you attack." Would have been a nerf to the nova damage, without knocking out the knees.
In playing paladin vs my dm who hates paladins from 2014 and I’m pissing him off with my 2024 paladin archery hex combo teleporting and making it so his fighters have to focus on me and can’t do anything because 25 ac and others at 28 ac. And attack them at disadvantage all the time
Did Armor get buffed? 18 AC with starting gear and without shield is pretty good. Normally its more like 15-17 since you dont have the Best starting Armor... Especially when playing a Rodent.
Well at least in 2014 edition... get a Cantrip for example from Magic Initate, use Booming blade, push him every Time and Profit. Even so it is kind of a waste for someone with Multiattack. But yeah, 2hand weapons of course lost their Bite when they nerved the Heavy weapon Mastery feat. Its no Suprise really. Barbarians probably have the same issue. the Heavy weapon feat was literally the only thing which made 2-handed Weapons viable is 2014. You think i trade one extra attack, or +2 to +5 Armor (depending on shield) to a dice upgrade from 1d8 to 1d12? aka 2 dmg? No sir.
I think it depends on how you measure the Paladin's features. If we're talking about auras, Paladin is ridiculous. But people tend to focus on damage output and there are more than just a couple classes that outpace it there.
in reality to optimize you shouldnt be a paladin harengon but goliath becoming huge, or a fairy duergar or high elf for enlarge or true strike. if the point is to hit hard and smite then go heavy 2handed with cleave or nick and bigger weapon means bigger crits and guaranteed advantage means more crits.
harengon should only be paladin as a tank support spell caster for optimization for its mobility can control the field and you can force enemy movement, but you wont be optimized for smites or melee brawling.
Yeah. Interesting … but I think the point was you don’t have to optimize.
That's a great observation! I kept the species the same on both builds so that I could really focus in on the difference that dual wielding makes and the first build was just because I wanted to play a harengon paladin with a big hammer lol
@@ConstructedChaos i can respect that, i have one shot unoptimized builds too.
Haregon Paladin
@@jonwashburn7999 haha you know bramble had to make an appearance in this video!
I will say that the math does matter but it is NOT the main thing. I think everyone on D&D tube has put out this same message - it is not just about damage. It is a lot of things that make a good character but the three that matter most is that the the player enjoys it, the character helps the team and that it is reasonable at the role you want to play.
I mean you can use a really annoying voice and drive your friends crazy if you keep those three things in mind it is all good.
@@leodouskyron5671 hahaha I know this all-too-well from personal experience 😂
This is a great video about why 2d10 is better than 1d20
Haha you're one die size away from an ad for Daggerheart ;)
@ I did consider the 12s. 10s were better for the players.
@@richardrdotson Haha I hear ya!
I do still hate how for the most part, not just on paladin, that you have to use your bonus action just to keep up with 2handed. With a bunch of added dice it starts getting ahead, but as soon as 2hand gets that bonus action attack from a crit or kill, it just blows dual wielding out of the water. Not to mention once magic weapons start factoring in. Lot easier to get one strong 2hander and have less attunement eaten up.
Overall, I think DW is really only better on classes that don't really have much to do with their bonus action and mechanics/spells where they can a lot of dice per hit.
That's a totally fair assessment but I will also remind that DW gives 3 chances to hit without your bonus action. Against a particularly challenging foe, I might prefer 3 chances to get a smite or crit in over just 2. It's not a huge difference, but it is a difference haha.
My impression is that paladins changed from reliably hitting harder than a truck to being the horse girl....
Lmao Paladin being a horse girl is a hilarious take
Still don’t like default smites using the bonus action.
Yeah I'm with ya. I think they should've just made it so you could only use it once per turn.
I think that removing the thing that makes a class shine in combat is generally bad idea. There isnt much i can do with 2024 paladin that i couldnt with 2014.
I still think the most fun tables will be the ones that mix 2024 and 2014 content.
That's a fair assessment but the paladin does also have a LOT more going for it than just smites. I'm not mad that we can't smite more than once per turn, I just wish it didn't take a bonus action.
@ConstructedChaos agreed. Not only can you not "mag dump" as it were with smites, but you still lose a spell slot, the ability to cast that turn, the ability to smite on opportunity attacks, and any potential bonus action ability or attack.
This, imo was the worst possible solution to a problem that could've been fixed by adding "once per turn".
Without a doubt, the support/ tank paladin was untouched and even improved in some places, but I don't know that I'd be willing to lose good damage for a couple more spells.
If im not mistaken, you could pull off the same build on a bard or warlock and still be a full caster.
Jesus loves you
@@saberq6413 Much appreciated! He loves you too, I’m sure!