This is why when Kira's actions were called out by everyone in Super Robot Wars Z it was so beautiful. SRW fixed a core problem and made the events of the show better, it helped that you could save Stella aswell.
The funniest part of your proposed ending of Destiny would be if Lunamaria got the Strike Freedom and STILL had trouble hitting anything in spite of all the guns her new Gundam had.
I think lunamaria is melee than range So something melee Ms she need She have bad aim at begining Like infinite justice design for athrun melee ability
@@LordRyan9999 "I understand it all now! The true reason for my wrath! I could not stand it! There is always some fool who wants to rule the world! Always forcing others to do what they cannot do for themselves!"- Asura
What seed did right was naming titular gundams on philosophy, this actually reflects zaft's true ideals instead of Earth alliance's violent naming conventions: calamity, strike, blitz, raider, forbidden, blitz, buster, duel. Well, even aegis is technically a shield used only in war. Scratch that, they zaft had abyss and chaos that's tacked on with Gaia, foreshadowing the events of seed destiny where Gaia is once again plunged into abyssal chaos. Stellar is a girl who represents innocence in the face of violence. Her actions are motivated by her aversion to death. She symbolises the world of the cosmic era at that point. Which is why she is grouped with chaos and abyss every time she sorties. But this later became destruction (destroy). Kira killing stellar implies his failure to save the world from destruction due to his failure to understand the conflicts happening at that time. I agree, kidnapping cagali and not opening up to a talk with the orb nobilities is his fatal flaw. He arbitrates by striking and acting on impulse, thereby limiting freedom. Your fanfic just cranked it up to 11. My understanding of destiny isn't the cycle of hatred. Pitting shin's destiny against durandal's destiny plan was something I really hoped to watch. Durandal's view of destiny is through taking away the freedom of everyone. Which opposes shin's as his gundam rose from freedom's ashes as he discards his impulse. The destiny of humanity is freedom and justice eternal, it requires faith in humanity for that to be achieved. Shin's character growth will begin with him killing freedom and the pretentious archangel (shout out to Lucifer who thinks he can play god with his power and charisma) out of impulse. He kills justice (athrun) because he thinks that it is his destiny (duty bound as a soldier and having lost his freedom). Before he finally defects after a lot of self doubt due to the dissonance between protecting others he love and ended up killing them instead. Lunamaria begins to blame shin for the loss of her sister and crush and loses grasp of her sanity and become an emotional wreck. Lunamaria will battle shinn with her impulse to avenge the death of her sister and her crush. Because impulse is an immature emotion due to failure to understand one's true destiny And the struggles of humanity, it will be destroyed by shinn but the core splendour and lunamaria is captured by shinn. Essentially making it out as shinn saving lunamaria's humanity (her splendid core), which he could not for stellar who had been engulfed by. death and destruction. His success is not because he acted on impulse, but because he understood his true destiny (protecting the weak (lunamaria and her immature impulses) with his power, which was what Kira and the immature shinn failed to do with stellar due to shinn's immature impulses and Kira's twisted notion of freedom). The two reconcile and lunamaria joins the eternal and pilots a new mobile suit (Faith gundam (long range support gundam to support destiny) cementing her faith in shinn's ideal destiny for humanity. Now it sets the stage for their fight against durandal's destiny. Durandal's destiny is nihilistic, and legend essentially represents legacies of the past which stems from their belief in the twisted providence (le crueset). Notice how durandal essentially wants to play god when he is only human? Seeing as the main core faith pilots have deserted Rey is promoted into white uniform zaft captain. Implying that durandal no longer has faith in humanity. Whereas the clyne faction does. Shinn's destiny and Luna's faith represents humanity's hope. Both rose from the ashes of the fallen ideals of freedom and justice. It's essentially a battle of mankind's destiny of eteranal freedom and justice against durandal's destiny plan that is unjust and robs people's freedom. Whereas le crueset wants to bring an end to humanity because. Durandal wants to bring an end to what makes us human. We can lose freedom and the justice in the short term. But we must never forget humanity's true destiny and have faith in them. For in doing so, we can bring forth another age of freedom and justice. Humanity is destined for goodness (that is what the clyne faction and the eternal represents) I'd do away with strike freedom and infinite justice. It's a bad concept with lazy naming sense. Infinite justice as a melee gundam with crazy amount of blades essentially implies that you mete out justice with infinite cuts. Strike freedom is an amalgamation of everything powerful in C.E. which implies that only the powerful can be free. That is Kira's flawed idealism and even Kira yamato, despite his power as the ultimate coordinator and his gundam, falls prey to his own impulses using force and killing a certain stellar individual instead of saving her from death and destruction. Which is why he meets his end under shinn's impulse.
That is not what I'd do. Also, your symbolism interpretation is magnificent. Besides, Kira didn't know who or what Stella was. All he saw was a giant monster killing innocent people and destroying everything around it. When Shinn failed to calm her, Kira stopped her the only way he could at the moment. He must know by now the full story. 😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢 Poor Stella.
My cringe ass fanfic was that shinn kill kira but at the cost a arm and a eye(how the fuck is the impulse still active from that nuke explosion) and earned the title as similar as big boss but shinn feel like shit about it
Honestly, I have to wonder about the suggested alternative. It's better than what we got, easily so, but it's still... I don't know. Like, for all the talk about how peace can't be achieved through force, that's still all the story has some of the same problems. Like, using force against those who would simply try to impose their views on the world is still using force to have your will (or the possibility for the world you want, if you want to be pedantic about it) become reality, isn't it? These scenes of characters coming together in spite of all their grievances are great and all, but it's also kind of small in the grand scale of things. I agree there's great room for tragedy and irony, but it feels like the talk of trying to reach an understanding between enemies outside of the small, individual moments (and even then, you would have to wonder about the weight of these little moments and how much they mattered in the big picture, which would be another interesting theme to explore) seems kind of silly at this point. War's BEEN declared here. Soldiers are already out fighting and dying. Boo mentioned Shinn doing what he can for the greater good. Shouldn't that goal be more intimate then? I guess I'm thinking it could be like the case in the Hobbit where the main character and his company aren't necessarily the ones to end the war, but they do their part helping those in need and making the final victory possible. And I can't get around the Newtype shit here, even understanding it through Boo's lens. One can understand the intent and the thematic importance of something, but if its execution sucks, then it sucks. The perspective about the tragedy of murder for Newtypes has (as far as I'm concerned) been done right only once in Gundam Unicorn when Banagher almost kills Marida, and even then, the moment only has as much power as it does because they made the effort to establish Marida as a character beforehand and create a bond with her. It wasn't used as a shortcut to get out of writing relationship development but was rather used to strengthen the bond that had already been there, to begin with. Also, I can't with the choices regarding mobile suits. I get the symbolism behind choosing the Impulse, but really? You're just going to leave the superior suit tailor-made to complement your skillset? The machine cleaving mobile armors in two with one stroke of the blade? REALLY? What happened to "do what you can"? If the suit's so unsightly as it is, take it and fix it up the way you would want it! The message remains the same, adds points of technical competence on Shinn's set, and the choice made still remains practical. More importantly, it keeps Shinn out of the Infinite Justice, which is one thousand times a plus. Some things just should not be....
Boofire, I'm gonna say this: One part of the entirety of the Destiny trainwreck rests SOLELY on the writer and director of the show, Chiaki Morisawa and her husband Mitsuo Fukuda. At the time the show was going on, she had brain cancer and turned in the scripts late. Not only that, she falsely accused Cagalli's Seiyou of having an affair with Fukuda, and Shinn's Seiyou stood up for her, hence why their characters got shat on by her as a result. Cagalli's Seiyou didn't come back as a result until SD Gundam G Generation World to voice Cagalli again. The only good things that came out of Destiny's trainwreck was that Shinn's Seiyou married Lunamaria's Seiyou and Super Robot Wars Z basically RIGHTING THE WRONGS that Destiny made. Shinn's Seiyou even proclaimed that Shinn in Super Robot Wars Z is the "True" Shinn, cause Shinn ACTUALLY gets character development in it compared to the actual show. Seed AS A WHOLE needs a SERIOUS REBOOT at this point.
Wow, I knew _some_ of that (Cagali's VA sleeping w the director, Shinn getting proper and good character treatment in a video game, _Destiny's_ writer dying a few years ago), but not the whole thing. Coincidentally, most Japanese _Gundam_ fans rejected _Gundam W_ when it came out, but it was America's introduction through _Wing_ that leads to the confusion. _Japan's_ answer to the eff-up in _W_ was the remake _Gundam 00_ (which was not only _my_ introduction to Gundam, but remains one of my favorite entries in the franchise). The reason I bring up the relationship between _W_ and _00_ is that _maybe_ at some point in the future, instead of making an _anime_ of _Crossbone Gundam_ they'll instead skip over that yet again and make a remake of the CE Timeline. _Here's the catch: SEED_ and _SEED Destiny_ are already remakes in-and-of-themselves, having been based on _0079, Z_ and _ZZ!_ So, in effect, to redo the CE timeline, you're basically having to revisit UC yet again and do _that_ all over again. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this, just that _that_ is what would end up happening _if_ a cleaned-up remake of the CE Timeline were called for.
00 *isn't* a remake to Wing, guys. But if you want to see a version of Wing that actually is good compared to the Original, read the Glory of Losers Manga. It fixes up the problems that the Wing anime had. Also, the Cosmic Era is *not* a remake of the UC timeline. It's similar, but it's it's own thing. Hence why I said it needs to be rebooted. U.C is still it's own thing and STILL is going on at this time.
I actually loved the start of Seed Destiny: particularly the destabilizing terrorist attack by people who just couldn't forgive or forget the Bloody Valentine incident, the colony drop that's blasted to bits but still causes widespread devastation - and the way this pushes a fragile peace toward a seemingly inevitable war, dragging even the divine nation of Orb down into the fray. Imagine, for instance, if Cagalli had stayed in control of Orb - and found herself obligated to conduct this war effort herself, despite her pacifist ideal - rather than Orb's involvement in the war being the product of a bunch of weasels undermining her authority, instead it's a seemingly necessary and difficult step in order to defend the nation... I dunno, I feel like armchair quarterbacking the show after the fact is a bit meaningless - but at the same time there were elements there I was really enjoying, and I like to think about how it could have played out if those were upheld instead of undermined.
The beginning felt like Stardust Memory, at least to me. The Minerva could've add the three original test pilots; Riika (Gaia), Mare (Abyss) & Courtney (Chaos) with Mare butting heads with Shinn on who's should've be Impulse's rightful pilot much like how Monsha and Kou with the GP-01.
Welcome to the “Disappointed in Destiny club” man (been a member since the series ended). The most frustrating about Gundam Seed Destiny is that it honestly could’ve been one of the best Gundam series ever, sadly instead of portraying Kira and Shinn as equal good guys with their point of view of what is right, the show devolves into fan fiction tier awfulness. It’s a shame, since I do like some of the characters and mobile suits (yes I do like Shinn and the Destiny). In your version, I personally would have Shinn keep the Destiny as a way of choosing his own “destiny” so to speak.
well it a tvshow and they care more about finish the damn thing rather than had good ending... we fix it in moive.. wait... we don't had time... and gave up...
8:30, To be fair, team Kira knew that ZAFT was targeting Lacus for assassination, it make sense that they didn't attempt to contact them, because they couldn't trust anybody from ZAFT, any careless move from their end would have endangered Lacus. And I also understand their doubt with Athrun because even Athrun despite being aware of Meer being a fake Lacus didn't do anything about it so the reaching out to the Minerva argument isn't really a strong one in my opinion. But attacking them for pacifism (TWICE) was pretty damn stupid I agree, they should have went to ORB in the first place...
They did reach out to athrun thought? During which Kira asked Athrun about the "Other Lacus". They could have reached out to the pilot of the Buster Gundam, Yazk, and a few other trusted people from ZAFT such as the former Chairwoman.
@@zerolsr2228 They didn't reach out to Athrun. Athrun reached out to THEM. Also, while the Terminal could have got in contact with Yzak and Dearka, they never did.
Lol yeah u’re right. His argument here doesn’t makes sense. Kira wasn’t in the wrong, it’s Athrun’s fault. He should’ve been acting as a bridge between two worlds, but what he did instead was dawdling around like a brainless person
Since you mentioned Shinn losing some respect for Athrun after the events of episode 28, I noticed another bit of wasted potential regarding that. Episode 28 didn't just come with the destruction of the Savior. Rey's Zaku Phantom and Luna's Zaku Warrior were also destroyed (thanks a lot, Kira). The Impulse was the only functioning mobile suit the Minerva had from then until getting the Destiny and Legend at Gibraltar. This should naturally put a lot of pressure on Shinn to become as strong as possible to protect the whole crew because Rey, Luna, and Athrun can't back him up in battle. But the story never gets any milage out of that scenario since the Minerva docks at a ZAFT base and receives support more or less immediately and Shinn's arc moves to focus on Stella's release, death, and revenge on the Freedom earlier than it needed to.
The biggest sin of Seed Destiny was switching the protagonists so early in the series. The first 10 or so episodes were really good but then it shifted its focus back to Kira and everyone else. Even though Shinn was an angry douche most of the time, at least he had character flaws, unlike Kira. He deserved a better character arc than becoming the chairman’s butt boy.
There were three points where Destiny could have added rocket fuel to its plot and character development, and it wimped out each time. The first was not assassinating Lacus. That would have instantly both given the Archangel crew some legit gravity to stage their little battlefield interventions AND justified Meer's existence in the show. The second was not killing Kira off, as you stated, which could have had a profound effect on Athrun and polarized HIS character arc. And the third was not killing Athrun and Meyrin off, as you also stated, which should have been the turn for Shinn. But ah well...
If Zaft didnt try to off Lacus the Arkangel and gang would of been less likely to start getting involved. Allowing for the show to follow the Minerva better and develop them as the heros.
A better analogy: SEED: The Force Awakens First half of GSD: The Last Jedi GSD, from episode 39 onwards: The Rise of Skywalker, the final season of Game of Thrones Stargazer: The Mandalorian
Reintroducing Kira and his gang is the biggest mistake on GSD. Kira should've died at the end of SEED alongside with Mu. Neo should've been at least Mu's clone, not exactly the same person. It would be a lot more interesting if they depict Eternal as a villain, not the saviour of the universe they claimed to be. I want to see how corrupt Lacus' ideals could've become, I want to see Meer's approach to this kind of problem instead of Meer being a generic popstar.
Also...once phantom pain got eliminated and Neo got captured...that was it for interesting and formidable EA characters...making it a very one sided battle. Let's fact facts- by CE 73 EAs military stinks in cool character ace pilots and they all defect or suck by that time- they get by on sheer numbers.... Then Minerva, our series flagship ,becomes a target due to duandal becoming a bad guy. It hurts
Kira (and Lacus) should have been put on a bus until near the very end, only making occasional appearances until the final few battles (maybe as Athrun calling Kira in for backup) but the shift to him and Lacus shouldn't have happened because up until him quite literally stealing the show, it was Athrun and Shinn who were the focus characters.
I picked up DW Gundam 2 again lately, and immediately play Shinn's story, because this is the only time I've ever seen Shinn roasting Kira and Athrun for their hypocrisy lol And I love the way Shinn bonded with Loran and Kamille in that story mode too, those two makes a surprisingly good mentor figures for him
The point when Shinn stopped asking questions, and started blindly following Durrandal and Rey was when he dropped right off the radar for me. Being an unquestioning puppet meant he lost his character by definition. It could be anyone in the Destiny's cockpit after that point, it wouldn't have mattered. I don't think _Archangel_ thought they were right in the absolute, however I do agree they should have tried to talk more, to persuade the other forces to lay down their arms instead of fighting. They could have hailed _Minerva_ before the latter charged the Tannhauser, and then Kira wouldn't have had to shoot it out, killing any crew too close to the massive gun. As to Cagalli being able to direct Orb toward peace, unfortunately she had been reduced to a puppet figure by that time. Of course, the _SEED_ version of Cagalli would have fought back for control. For whatever reason, she is much more of a bystander in _Destiny_ , which bothers me greatly. She used to infiltrate colonies and participate with warriors to find the answers she sought. So why is she shown standing by and waiting, being passive? Probably the same reason Shinn got shifted to the back row: because someone demanded Kira to take the spotlight. I greatly dislike the whole 'Ultimate Coordinator' business. Saying that someone made an attempt at a 'perfect' human being, and actually achieved it in Kira, as though humanity had zero potential to go further. It's extremely pessimistic, and also egotistical. Not so much on Kira's part since he had no idea, but on the part of his creators, defining him as the end-point. Of course other humans would react by attempting to assassinate Kira, to try to wipe away this image of perfection, just as they did George Glenn and the other Coordinators. That's what happens when one race tries to assert itself as superior: th opporessed fight back. For understanding, you do not stand above the other party; you stand _with_ them, otherwise no understanding can be achieved. This is why peace never came to any _Gundam_ series: someone always tried to stand above another. And in _Destiny_ , the one trying to stand highest is Durrendal, with his plan. But so many others try to stand atop others, and therefore fire their weapons before trying to talk. Naturally this includes _Archangel_ and its crew. But like Kira, Shinn also never tried to talk. He shut others down, spoke in a way that would naturally anger them, and blamed Cagalli and Athrun for Orb's failure to protect his family. Shinn was not open because of his anger. Because of the anger, he positioned himself above others. Andthi makes him no better than those others, Kira included.
I honestly with common sense from the writers shinn would have been and Better protagonist than kira and possibly one of the best protagonist in the Gundam franchise
I heard that the reason Cagalli get's so fucked over is the writer got into a dispute/big disagreement with the VA of Cagalli, wanting to make her character seem weaker and reducing her to a plot device. The writer and director were married.
Destiny shouldn’t have had so much focus on the Archangel and made them background or supporting characters like Char and Amuro were during Zeta so that the new cast had time to shine. I loved the idea to have Lunamaria and Shinn pilot the Strike Freedom and ♾Justice and think that would have been amazing and a great way to pass the torch to them from Kira and Athrun
I never thought Char was a background or supporting character in Zeta, he had more screentime than Amuro did in it. I think it's nice though Destiny didn't turn too much into Zeta because then it probably would have been redundant. There's already parts of the original Gundam Seed that resemble parts of Zeta also.
@@ericcaulfield4477 the point I was trying to make was that Destiny put too much focus on returning characters instead of properly building new ones. Zeta built on the returning characters but placed more focus on the new cast so that they could shine. Destiny was set up to do this with Athrun taking on Char’s role as mentor to the protagonist but ultimately shifted to focus on the Archangel crew more than the interesting characters that were introduced specifically for the season. Shinn could have been great but became very one-note towards the end and the rest of the ZAFT cast didn’t fare much better
@@ignisofficialgaming I think they tried with the whole mentoring thing with Athrun but realized he wasn't going to be a good role model for Shinn. They wrote Shinn to be too antagonistic with people which didn't help his character be likable. Even if they did sideline Kira you'd be stuck with unlikable Shinn for the majority of the show.
I watched Seed Destiny as a kid, not knowing that Seed exist. When Kira came in like I'm suppose to know who is he, I was confused as hell and totally felt the same way as you said, he feels super self righteous and ignorance. And I was super sad that they did Shin dirty for the rest of the series.
Yha I always though Kira was a hypocrite and very self righteous, even as a kid. I know people like that now in my life and its worst character trait by far.
@@Frame-hb8jb Shinn has been well, the first half as well the super robot wars and Dynasty warrior games for example, I thought he was a well done character. A better second half of Seed would be, if Kira is to survive then when he next clashes with Shinn he gets called out for what he's done and have him face up to his actions but nope, we don't get that
While I do like the idea of Shin and Lunamaria becoming the pilots of the infinite justice and the strike freedom, I do think it would work a bit better to have Shin steal the Destiny when he defects as it shows him taking control of his own destiny after having been controlled by it (referring to both the cycle of hate and durendals plans for him) for so long, and in doing so creates a new future for the CE where others are free to do the same. also, you totally need to watch Gundam SEED Stargazer, its a 3 episode OVA that takes place over the course of Destiny, and is generally considered to be one of (if not the only) truly great things to come out of the Cosmic Era.
I heard that when kira died Arthurn should have piloted the different version of the strike freedom While shinn defected and pilot either the Justice or Destiny
@@AnthroGearhead I literally remember her doing two things once she got in a mobile suit. And no, she really shouldn't have. It would be irresponsible for a nation's leader to run off into war like that, especially when she would be far more effective in the homeland. She's not that great a fighter outside of the jets (and I don't think I need to explain how suicidal being in one of those things would be in the Destiny landscape of war), certainly no strategist, and her speeches on the battlefield are largely ineffective. So yeah, probably for the best that she stay at home and Govern her land.
@@laststrike4411 Their force is justified tho. The Innovater's force is they seek to eliminate any element opposing them, thus forcing them to submit, which is the opposite of CB's approach to meeting their opposition's challenge as declared. That's why CB doesn't act unless someone does because the world will then be forced to act in opposition instead of accepting them as a coming change or a wall guiding them away from the path of ruin. 2nd season started with a forceful government as the result of Innovater's meddling to vilify CB
@@laststrike4411 by the end they realize they are wrong and that sometimes force is neccessary to battle a tyrannical force much like the nazis and the Japanese during ww2.
@@laststrike4411 The ELS were pacify through understanding, so for me that gives them half a pass. That and this little line from wing "Wars are started by people, and they end with people. Hero is ordered only to attack the dangerous, evil people responsible for starting wars." I think that if Loran met Kira and learned of what he calls "pacifism" then I bet he would smack that little ass so hard that the plot armour would fall off.
CB was never wrong tho. It all went according to plan. They knew the idea of eradicating war was impossible and that there are bigger ambitions that lie ahead. Actually, after watching this video... I'd come to realize how shallow the characters are in 00 in terms of baggage, even though it still is my 2nd fav gundam show. I guess the rich world and sci-fi element more than made up for it.
Just gonna say, I loved Shinn. Even with what happens later on, he gets a spot on my favourite Gundam character list. It's a damn shame what happened with Seed Destiny.
True I liked Shinn what a waste. I loved how Kira was shocked when Shinn dodged his Attack. Athrun was also wasted. He gave the shaft to Kira but then shilled to him.
Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask): Shinn is Gone. I'm all that remains. Mid aged Athrun: I'm sorry.... for everything.... Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask): I'm not your failure... You didn't kill shinn asuka... I did.. The same way that I will... destroy you!!! Mid aged Athrun: Then my friend is truly dead.... Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask): ATHRUN!!!! ATHRUUUUUN!!!
14:55 I don't think it's nonsensical. Shinn starts to hate Athrun because he criticized him with honesty, while Durandal and Rey just shield him and praise him no matter what he did. Being the kid that he is, Shinn will naturally lean toward Durandal and Rey instead of Athrun.
I honestly liked SEED, (Gundam SEED was my first Gundam, so it holds a special place in my heart) and Kira in the first series. However, they completely butchered his character in Destiny, and the same goes for Shinn as well as Athrun. They are ALL victims of BAD WRITING. The first half of the series was IMO honestly very good, but like you said from the mid-point on, it was a trainwreck.
Not gonna lie: Back when Destiny was still airing I still had some hope when the duel between the Impulse and the Freedom was about to start. I hoped that this fight put Kira finally on the spot and pointed his hypocrisy out. Exposing how hard he screwed everything up until this point, from Cagalli to Stella, with the later actually getting killed thanks to him and people realizing that something like a sole savior does not exist (esspecially Athrun which would've made a lot of thematical sense in that regard). No matter what people say: I think Shinn was right in this situation. Kira made mistake after mistake after mistake and things got worse the more he got involved, and yet nobody tried to stop him in any meaningfull way. This could've become an amazing moment if Kira would've be forced to make a choice: Either A.: Realizing that he's no different from the people he considers villains and thus start to change his ways (By directly stating he was wrong) or B.: Stay stubborn and thus getting rightfully axed by Shinn. And, yeah. I still vividly remember how much and hard I cheered when the Freedom blew up. Not only was I happy thinking he finally had gotten rid of that waste of space pilot, but I also felt proud for Shinn considering he got an amazing and straight forward victory against the definition of a Gary Stu despite having an infirior machine. Long story short however: I share Boofires opinion on Shinn fully. If the writters would've wanted to he could have become the best protagonist in Gundams entire franchise-history. also: Can we please get your version of seed as a remake? that would legit make for an amazing Gundam series.
ItsMR BUSHIDO he’s not qualified to be in the army in the first case with that kind of mental state But well it’s not called anime for no reason It’s the anime law
Didn’t Athrun chastise Kira, Cagalli, and the Archangel when they met after the first battle that the Archangel intervened in because they were making things worse? As for Shinn, I just with he’d have become a villain by his own choices instead of being manipulated.
All this shit would've been avoided if the incident with Cagalli and Shinn's VAs didn't escalate and Kira's gang to never have that much significance. Kira can still show up, yes. He can use the Freedom and do some cool stuff but never in the level that he did in GSD. Maybe more of a silent defender for Lacus. I like your idea of killing Kira on this but I do think killing Athrun and Meyrin is maybe a bit too Tomino. I think it's fine if he stops midway in his murder-spree on Athrun and realizes it there with which causes them to get away. Then, when Shinn deserts the Minerva he goes to ORB and meets up with Athrun there and then they get, well, I wanna say something like: The Infinite Justice and some sort of Freedom Impulse? Also, Athrun is the only sensible character in this show.
As someone who watched Destiny as it was coming out in Japan back in 2004 (My god I'm old), I understand how BOOFIRE feels. The last half is a complete shit show and 14 years later just thinking of the show pisses me off. For all of SEED's faults, I thought it was an okay show in the same vain as Gundam Wing: It wasn't bad but wasn't good either. After watching Destiny, even to this day, I can't watch SEED because it makes me think of Destiny and I can't get through it. Believe me, I thought also that Destiny had so much potential, that it could be better than its predecessor. But when Kira showed up with the Freedom freshly rebuilt, I knew something was off. I remember when me and a buddy watched the Impulse vs Freedom episode, we were so happy seeing the Freedom get blown up even though we both knew Kira survived. That's how frustrated I was with Kira and his bullshit. I think that's when I knew this show was dead and nothing could revive it. I really like BOO's way of fixing the last half of Destiny and would like to hear a more in depth version of it just out of curiosity. I understand his meaning of Shinn getting Infinite Justice and Lunamaria getting Super Freedom but I think just giving him the Destiny probably would have been more marketable. But then again I doubt Bandai/Sunrise would allow their money maker Jesus Yamato to die or Fukuda and Morisawa would have the brain cells needed to come up with that scenario. One final thing I'll say is something that wasn't brought up is how the whole Mu La Flaga/Neo Roanoake ordeal was dealt with. I thought there could be more to it than Mu survives the ending of SEED and has memory altered, even though he clearly died i.e being vaporized by ship beam cannon plus helmet floating in the vacuum of space with blood around it equals dead. Needless to say this didn't set well with me. Again, a lot of potential wasted. Anyway, loved the review and am now subscribed. Keep up the good work.
You know later astray novels talk about carbon humans- essentially a better newer version of Rau-being based off of fallen combat warriors in battle. The show could be easily written to say that Neo is indeed a clone
What are your feelings about Destiny now that Gundam Seed Freedom has been announced? Will you also be analyzing Gundam Seed Freedom after uts released?
Poor boofire... he heard the warnings and he went through with it anyways. And now he has been fully revealed to the love of Team Jesus Yamato. I sympathize, dude- the CE timeline SUCKS from a story perspective.
@@suiken3149 I was so turned off by the end of both series that I was more-or-less numbed to anything _good_ that _Stargazer_ might have offered. The Strike Noir was kinda neat, but that's about all I remember from it.
@@nedinnis6752 _Astray_ also had some nice MS designs (I also crush on Red Frame, sorry!), but that the episodes were so short was, well, disorienting. I think I only saw the Blue and Red episodes, but it's been so long since I saw them that I've forgotten most of it at this point.
CE itself has so much fucking potential to be just as fleshed out and interesting thanks to all the side info and crazy shit happening in Astray. and fucking stargazer....needed to be more then 3 OVAs. you could tell that by the end of the show they were running out of budget/animation looked...eh
My comment is 2 years late but you are absolutely right. Shinn had so much potential, but was executed SO POORLY that I could only laugh. The part imo when he could have switched sides. Was during the battle in the rain with athrun. It may be too idealistic, but In my mind, I wished THAT was when Shinn fended off Rei delivered a blow that incapacitated the Providence with Destiny took Athrun and Meyrin in the rain and fled.
There’s a very easy thing they could’ve done for Destiny, and all they had to do was copy a TNT made for tv movie from the late 90s with Sam Shepard and Dennis Quaid. “Purgatory” is a movie about all the famous wild west gunfighters resurrected and given a second chance at a pacifist lifestyle to earn their ticket into heaven. A young man who tagged along with a pack of truly villainous outlaws stumbles into the likes of Wild Bill, Jesse James, and Billy the Kid. The young man, named Sonny, eventually has to make a choice and risk his life for what’s right. It’s through this decision of self sacrifice that all the famous gunfighters come out of the woodwork for one last, dare I say biblical, showdown. That’s what Destiny could’ve been: Shinn as the voice of empathy, passion, and retribution, that convinces all these famous ace pilots and crew from SEED to come out of hiding, and stand up for one last mission to kill off Blue Cosmos, and give the rest of humanity a chance to defuse the situation.
I couldn't stand Athrun's character. He comes across as indecisive and can only think when Kira tells him to. Also the fact that he defects from Zaft twice with no repercussions really gives the impression that Athrun's entire character is just being Kira's friend
Athrun is too easily swayed by people in authority. Kira and Lacus are not. Athrun and Cagalli, on their own, lack the ability to stand up to authority. That's a key aspect of their characters. Even when Athrun KNOWS something is wrong, he tends to go along with it. This is something that a lot of people (or most people) suffer with during wartime.
Athrun had THE most potential in GSD. We could have seen him choose to stand on his own two feet, mentor a team of young pilots to overcome their prejudices and hate, work within ZAFT to undermine Dullindal's plan, face and overcome his father's legacy, maybe even usher in a new era of politics in PLANT and help it demilitarise. Instead, the writers made him regress to his indecisive, fifteen-year-old self and chained him to a series of hypocritical principles and possibly the most irritating, big-mouthed and self-righteous "friends" to ever exist.
I fundamentally disagree with any attempt to fix the destiny train wreck plot by having Shinn switch sides. That kind of thing is what makes the original SEED so much worse than 0079 to begin with. Amuro is just a soldier for example. He might have his own ideals but he is a kid in over his head at the end of the day. Shinn should fight for ZAFT until the conclusion of the conflict but continue to grow as a person.
As someone who watched Seed Destiny in full, and who saw Shinn redeemed in SRW Z like GinraiPrime666 detailed, I think your video was extremely interesting, particularly pointing out the deeper meaning of "Destiny". I'll check out your other videos and probably comment again. And yes, the troubled production needed a little courage!
8:19 - Kira does stay away. Just coincidentally, there's a small explosion, Stella just happens to see Freedom because the story demands it, then freaks out and goes full berserk mode ready to blast Shinn point blank range. The Minerva was about to fire at her too, but Kira deals the killing blow.
Stella: i can be free now? Guess my work here is done, take me home Shin :) Shin: climb on board quick, this thing is going to blow Stella: *stood up and suddenly Freedom shows up behind the Impulse with bad intention* ohh no ! Shin get back get back !! *tries to hit the Freedom but late when its sword hits the cockpit while avoiding me but i fell out of the wreckage, Shin saved me again but that was a close call*
@@jasperreyes5174 if Kira never appeared, more of Berlin would be ashes. Stella was an unhinged, crazy girl that was on the verge of snapping at the sight of any threatening thing. I guarantee you that such an existence is too dangerous to be kept alive.
Um, why would Team Kira even consider talking with a Zaft ship after a bunch of Zaft spec ops tried to kill them in their sleep? Gee I wonder. Here's a better question, why didn't the Minerva just sit in port instead of trying to force their way through to their destination. They knew after the first battle the EA was waiting for them. Heading out when you know there's two hostile opponents waiting for you is more stupid. Why didn't Talia go back to base and go "Hey guys, little help here, massive alliance fleet on our doorstep base camping us." And if you're going to call Kira arrogant for just hovering and lowering his altitude when things were calming down, how about we bash Shinn in the face harder for giving the mentally unstable girl back to the alliance monsters who made her in the first place, like that's beyond stupid naivety that an enemy commander wouldn't put her right back into a mobile suit or be ordered to. At 10:40 you kind of hit the whole point of the original war right on the head, people didn't talk their differences out and started firing nukes at each other as a first resort. Team Kira tried to talk it out in the first war, it ended up with Mu getting 'killed', three of Kagali's friends getting killed, who knows how many people just doing their jobs while crazy leaders Zala and Azreal were firing nukes around. Sorry but I can see why they's basically go with "Disarm first, talk later." when "Talk first, disarm later" worked out SOOOO well to the point it lead to another war. Also you know technically Kira is in the ORB military right, so him actually shooting first at Zaft when they're an enemy state of ORB at the start, especially after they invaded his country to try to kill innocents, is not really a ding on him yeah? It's a ding on his ideals, but not on reality, he's firing at an enemy nation. Ooops. And for the fifty millionth time, that explosion was not from the Freedom, it was caused by the Minerva firing off it's main cannon. Go watch EVERY time that cannon hits something, same blast. That and nuclear reactors don't explode like nuclear bombs do, especially if they don't have non-enriched fuel. Shinn never really did much by stabbing the Freedom in the gut, he missed the reactor and the cockpit, what tore both machines apart was there batteries being drained when they got hit by the Minerva's anti-matter explosion happening behind them. The only reason the Impulse survived period is the Freedom took most of the blow for the Impulse as Shinn had a Freedom shaped shield between him and the explosion. They BOTH should have died in that, but it's okay for Shinn to have plot armour when something should have killed him, or he hands an enemy pilot back to the enemy commander to save her just so he can be selfish but if Kira does either of those things its a crime against good story telling. Hell if the Freedom could ACTUALLY go nuclear, both should be dead end of story. Phase shift armour only protects against Kinetic energy and drains the battery at the rate its being taxed. A nuclear bomb in the face will drain the Impulse's batter faster than Shinn could blink not to mention PSA does NOTHING against radiation and heat as shown numerous times when machines, including the Freedom, have had to GTFO when a radiation weapon was being used, or how the Impulse and Strike almost did that whole burn up in the atmosphere thing when their pilots just barely got the machine working for it in time. Yeah no, no contest if the freedom went nuclear, Impulse would be vaporised, hell Genesis was vaporised and it had PSA WAY stronger than any MS could even handle when a nuke went off in its face.
Also I honestly don't think Zaft did a heel turn. If you look at it from the start, Durandall almost had all of the pieces he needed but Neo's group stole three of them before he was ready to take down Logos. He had the five gundams and the Minerva which could easily take down the 'terrorists' who wanted to drop Junius seven had they all been there and had decent pilots, look at what three aces did in mass production units. The alliance and especially the racist Logos would still even if Junis seven didn't hit at all have a reason to attack Zaft. Zaft would have there Stampeders and defence fleets there to defend against the retaliation, and from there well imagine the rest of the series with the Minerva having it's full Gundam and pilot compliment and each machine having ace pilots instead what they had to work with in reality. If you also notice, the Minerva for most of their journey just happens to be moving across Alliance controlled areas when Zaft was supposed to be deployed for 'self defence only'. Well little odd that you NEED a ship that's on the other side of the planet to just stroll across through areas you know it's going to get shot when you're deployed for 'self defence only'. And we even going to talk about the illegal tech in the two gundams Zaft made at the end? They didn't just whip up the Legend and the Destiny at the last minute of the war, those had to have been at least in pieces before it started. You can't just whip out brand new nuclear reactors and all the other toys the two Gundams have, or build an entire fortress complete with a GENESIS weapon in a few months. Legit at the start of the war Zaft was like "OH YEAH POSITRON CANNON, BLOCK THIS!" then was shocked when the EA actually did, seems odd that they made an invincible energy shield THAT fast after learning about the positron shield tech just after the war started. Durandall was playing a chess game from the start long before the war, he was just forced to start earlier then planned while missing some of his pieces and having three of his big pieces taken before the game started.
I really enjoyed SEED Destiny, but something had been bothering me for a very long time, and this video touched on it. I think Destiny's issues with the Orb battles are mostly poor direction/reasoning. Kira didn't go in because Cagalli was crying, I think that's a dumb take that ignores the real reason he said immediately after. They didn't spend as much time on the fact that Team Kira had to put everything together on their own as they needed to. If Orb sided with ZAFT, they'd be dead before morning. If they sided with the Earth Forces, then there goes their ideals. They're alone in the fight against the entire world and then some space as well. Honestly, I think what happened was probably the best that Orb(the country) could've hoped for in that bad of a situation. They proved their "loyalty" to Earth, and once Cagalli went back, there wasn't really much ZAFT could do to them anyway. I like your idea, but I also really like Athrun. I'd be fine with him cheating death, especially since the cockpit itself wasn't actually destroyed. What matters in your version are the themes and values of the characters, which you could still do even if Athrun and Meyrin were to come back.
Seeing this video, my child self was right Stella should've been alive Her presense give Shinn at least meaning. No wonder my childself hate Stella's death
In my opinion, Stella’s presence allows us to see Shinn as someone more then an annoying screaming hypocrite. Their relationship doesn’t even have to be romantic, Stella can just remind Shinn of his little sister and he has the urge to protect her. The theme of many gundam pilots of the series is that they entered the cockpit to protect something. Amuro, Garrod, Banagher, Mikazuki, hell, even Kira first piloted the Strike because he was one of the only two people on the ship capable of piloting a MS. But of course, it doesn’t have to be like that for the beginning of every gundam pilot. Kamille, the guy Shinn was based off of, stole the MK2 gundam because he got pissed off by the military. But even then, he decided to stay as a gundam pilot exactly for the reason to prevent more suffering from happening. Shinn joined the military because he lost his family to war, but we rarely see a clear image of what he wants to protect. Well, atleast we actually see something. After Stella died, it’s just pure revenge seeking angst. Spiced with an extra dose of hypocrisy. Oh, how dare you drug children that has done nothing to deserve this and turn them into brainwashed super soldiers. Now I shall proceed to kill said brainwashed children because they weren’t the girl. Now don’t get me started with Archangel. God, that was a long rant.
Stella never should've died, and Shinn should have been in the central protagonist role. The Minerva defects towards the end (temporarily?), Shinn takes control of Destiny (thematically and literally I guess) and confronts the Chairman about his destiny plan and so on.
It stuck to me Shinn's empathy with Athrun in the beginning, seeing through him in a way even Cagalli couldn't. He said Cagalli didn't understand anything and that he felt sorry for Athrun for it as he was still weighed down by his past as a Zala. It was surprising that Shinn later questioned Athrun's skills as a FAITH member and forgot the very thing he felt sorry for that could have factored down to his weakness.
To be honest I hated the Shinn character to me he was just a hot head brat. And I always wondered why they wrote that character the way they did. I think it was a lossed opportunity to come up with a better character. I never liked him yet he's supposed to be give some sympathy because his family gets killed in the last war. I thought that it was just bad writing to cover for him. For example if they wanted a more sympathetic character they didn't have to give him an attitude even Yzak was a hot head, but a likeable hot head in Gundam Seed even showed more personality and character development. Shinn was just a hot headed brat that never got put totally in his place.
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMasterbecause that is what called character development. Shin is supposed to grow up as the main character in the 2nd path but due to the garbage drama between the director and his wife (writer), whoever got caught in between gets the shitty treatment. Shin va called out the drama, so shin go to shit. Whoever takes side got the king seats. And kira the jesus came back as the plot already went to shit
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMasterread up on the drama, shin is probably one of the best gundam pilot with a real character development if not becaused of those 2 meatbags
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMaster good news is, Shinn in SRW (Z especially) and most of Gundam Games that has Gundam SEED Destiny story on it write his story in entirely different way and much better than his story in the TV-anime, he got a character development that we wanted to see and we see him basically become what we wanted him to be, a Kamille Bidan 2.0 (minus the authism). not only that, but we also seen a better Athrun and Kira which is again, fulfill their role as a good copy of Quatro Bajeena (Char in Z) and Amuro (again from Z timeline). they can easily did what Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam did and did it better.
I can say that the direction you point for the series in the video its really really good i enjoyed a lot. I personally like Shinn and its a real shame what they left for his character in the remaining plot of GSD but SRW Z give me hope that he could recieve better treatment in the future.
Why the fuck would you think shinn is the main protagonist. Seriously why the fuck. Shinn was a destructive emo who keeps on screaming bullying Cagalli. He was Mad of orb because it could not protect his family. Which it was no ones fault but he wanted orb to be destroyed. Like WTF
@@dta366 I don't think you really understand what a protagonist is. Shinn is angry and young, what made him a protagonist is that the plot revolves around him and his eventual growth to maturity. He's not all that different from Kamille Bidan, who joined terrorists because someone made fun of his name. Unfortunately the writers screwed that up and made Kira the protagonist again while Shinn became a villain.
@@dta366 EXACTLY. Shinn's feelings trump any logic that he has. As far as the 'protagonist' thing goes, he doesn't even have the most screentime in the first 10 episodes. Athrun is far more prevalent than Shinn.
@@nedinnis6752 The protagonist IS the focus of a work--and that protagonist can be good or evil. It doesn't matter. However, Shinn isn't the most featured character, even at the beginning of the series. If Kira had never resurfaced (and he was shown many times at the beginning, implying his return), Athrun was much more the focus of Destiny than Shinn. The war was contextualized through Shinn, and his struggle regarding ORB played into the main plot--but make no mistake, Athrun was the true center of the first several episodes and Kira was always destined to be the protagonist again.
THANK YOU! Holy MOLY someone FINALLY gets Shinn more than I thought. He is a teen that despises his own weaknesses. "I am no longer the helpless child I used to be!" "I have the power to change fate itself!" Stems from Shinn's ability to do nothing to save his family's life that faithful day.
except its not really because it was never officially done. One CAN find solace in the SRW (especially Zs) take of CE 73 and Minvera Crew... even if its more black and white when gundam never is
So no one will talk about on how Rey completely manipulate Shinn in the entire series, he always tell that Shinn's doing is absolute and just. And how all the characters faction try to stand above other factions? And everyone is trying to kill each other before they could talk so they can resolve the problem? Well the whole series is so problematic, so there's no point in arguing why the series lost it's potential 🤷♂️
Peace can never be achieved through force? Brave words coming from someone within colony dropping distance Damn you’re version really made me see Shin in a different light and how his potential was wasted Time to summon fanfic writers
Orb situation was going to go that way regardless of Cagalli getting kidnapped or not. Also during the second time the Arcangel showed up to stop the Orb fleet guess who started the whole conflict, Shinn by getting angry like he always does and firing at the Strike Rouge aka Cagalli the one person trying to stop Orb from attacking the Minerva. I can understand calling Kira self-righteous for believe that his way is right, but has anyone noticed how Shinn himself pretty much gets away with insulting Cagalli right in front of Durandal and not get reprimanded, or how he disobey orders almost everytime with no consequences and instead gets rewarded with a shit ton of validation from everyone in the Minerva. Say what you want about Kira but Shinn was a character built to fail from day one cause he's been surrounded by people that validated every single one of his actions and never called him out on it. If you're telling me that Shinn had potential to become a great character by killing Kira, Athrun, and Meyrin and then understanding the error of his ways, but don't forget that he never got called out for disobeying orders and giving Stella back to the enemy which led to the whole Destroy Gundam scenario and Shinn blaming Kira yet again. Kira may be a self-righteous dumbass but at least his actions never created a scenario like the Destroy Gundam that killed far more for no reason. Also Shinn never felt anything but hatred towards Orb and you can see it by how he when about destroying the ships.
just Binged gundam seed and gundam seed destiny and I see where people are coming from in regards to kira and the archangel but I feel a bit different. In destiny cagalli was acting hella submissive ish, she could have strongly aired her views but I guess they were going for the route of trying to make her get swept up in politics which she was getting manipulated into by her fiance and his dad. Kira knew cagalli wasn't ready to make the hard decision for her nation to stand on its own as seen with how she was about to go through with a marriage that could potentially kill the amount of power she holds, which is why kira abducted her. Now with the kira crew, their ideology hasn't stopped and I understand their opposition to durandal as they knew something was wrong from the moment lacus was about to be assassinated despite their being an already fake lacus. They knew neither side was completely telling the truth. Now lacus remarks that they have a contradiction of fighting peace with force to which they accept that consequence of possible bloodshed and kira tries his best to not kill pilots which is what he has always tried to do but the strike not having the weaponry the Freedom has. So when Kira and co arrive, they're arent fighting to kill but to disarm (at least kira does as the archangel acts in self defence). Even with that, kira isn't above self reflection as he also doubts if he is right. I believe this show is quite self aware despite its flaws
I think the most frustrating thing about Destiny as a whole, to which is why even to this day it still gets talked about more than even more recent Gundam shows. Is the fact that the amount of holes and poor handling of ideas that it plants the seed(pun slightly intended) to anyone competent could look at and then improve it greatly. So much so that I bet if you took a dartboard, then put a bunch of characters, concepts and ideas from Destiny itself then tossed a dart to fix that one thing, someone would not be strayed for good ideas. Even your own fanfiction is leagues better than what Destiny started. Destiny itself has so much for a writer to play with and every idea chosen was dropped, poorly handled or a bad idea that remained a bad idea. For example I'm surprised you didn't talk much about Mu AKA Neo in this video, who's death was needlessly retconned to be brought back to Destiny to be a terrible Char clone, a complete asshole than everything he did up to that point forgotten about when he takes off the mask, all to a character that amounted to absolutely nothing from start to finish. Now then reason I picked him is that even a bad idea like this could have been salvaged as soon as you start thinking about him that instead everything Kira did post Impulse/Freedom fight, Mu took the place instead, even piloting the Strike Freedom. When you think that on it's own even with Destiny's other flaws his character goes from being insultingly pointless to having a justification for a solid character arc. This would have to acknowledge the shitty things he did as Neo and feel guilt as his memories return that his actions got Kira killed (Or unable to fight anymore, Kira doesn't even need to be killed, but he NEEDS to be out of commission for the rest of the show in his current context.) because he was the one who broke his promise to Shinn to take Stella away from the war, by putting her in the Destory which led to Kira's current condition. Have his Neo history told to the Archangel crew from someone or Mu himself to cause resentment and distrust while Ramius as the captain willing to give a chance to her former lover while on top of the fact they don't have any other pilot to rely on since Kira can't fight anymore. To then furthermore would lead to him getting the Strike Freedom to another point you can build upon the guilt he feels that the man responsible for putting Kira in his current condition is now being given the suit that was made for him. Mu can even treat it as self atonement for his past sins and if Kira is still alive you can even have him take it to safeguard until the day Kira is able to fight again. Hell even the suit itself looks like something he'd pilot more then the Akatsuki even to the not funnels, the Dragoons. Continuing on, Mu and Shinn would have a genuine relationship dynamic we've seen first hand since the two actually met face to face unlike Shinn and Kira from being tied to Stella. One rightfully feels guilt for what he done, while the other rightfully wants his revenge for that broken promise. This relationship can greatly improve too depending on how other factors of Destiny is changed where say if Athrun really does die, Shinn defects, Mu could actually be closer to that Quattro inspiration a little more. Hell you can even start that before Shinn defects where he doubts his own feelings of revenge for Mu because of everything that happened to Athrun up to that point. Even the final fight between the Freedom and the Legend would have more weight cause Mu had a lot more of a connection to Rau than Kira did and would ESPECIALLY feel a lot more about Rey than Kira did. There's more stuff you can work with too, but the point I think is made. And all of that is just ONE character to which was a bad idea to begin with and you can get so much more mileage out of it without even going into if you rewrote everything. I could even go on with a wasted potential of a relationship between Shinn and Cagalli which could shine some light on some really stupid things about Orb in general with Shinn being the perfect character to expose Orb's hypocrisy. EVEN LACUS AND KIRA you can make work without killing them off if you want extra hard mode fanfiction. You mention how Flay and Kira's relationship went no where, honestly what I would explore is if Kira's and Lacus's relationship is all that different except Lacus isn't a straight conniving bitch about everything. In an essence Lacus may be kind hearted, is Kira really acting as his own man or is does it so happen that Lacus's manipulation, unintentional or not, just so happen to align with Kira's true nature so he never noticed. If you took Lacus gradually into a villain role this would be very interesting and really there's not a jack of a lot you can do with Kira otherwise. So on and so on you can continue to explore a bunch of characters and ideas and make these pieces actually fit instead of trying to put them together into a toilet to flush and hope something gets put together. However the final point of all is this, no matter what idea you want to change, improve upon, throw out whatever. The fact of the matter is this. This story was set up and was about entirely Shinn's story and growth as a character. Betraying that story half way through to focus on a character that already had their story told then adding nothing to it. All the while tossing Shinn aside and assassinating his character and almost even a career with Kenichi Suzumura. Then forcing Shinn's resolution upon him at the story's end without it earned, is Destiny's biggest sin. No matter what, Shinn's story must be the main focus in any attempt to fix Destiny. Good video, Destiny makes me mad that most bad media doesn't. Massively wasted potential is far worse than simple garbage.
whew... wall of text... but to address your very first point. they get talked about... because SEED honestly ended quite well and DESTINY was on fire when it started. It had massive potential to tell a great story with realistic characters, in the mainstream, AND it was all fuckin pretty to boot. and the internal sunrise staff fucking massively self destructed and we talk about its end product.
@@lyq232 Don't get me wrong, GSD isn't good really to me, it's pretty meh but IBO S2 pisses me off worse. The writers to IBO S2 seemed to think it was also clever unlike the GSD writers who never had such lofty aspirations.
I'm glad to hear that you are going to do some more of these. It is fun to hear peoples option on the actual series instead of just the model kits on youtube
I'm gonna talk as someone who likes SEED Destiny, but not to the blinding extent that I can't see the flaws in it. In all honesty I feel sorry for the character of Kira. His arc, in my eyes at least, was finished in the original SEED and he should of most definitely been kept in the background, a support character to Shinn (who I feel even more sorry for... the story butchered that poor kid) and Athrun. The problem is that the writers wanted SOOOOOOOO badly for Kira to be the main character again that they destroyed the potential for his character and the potential for their show in the process. Kira should of been the reluctant war vet, called in when there was no other choice and the heroes' backs were against the wall. Not as a savior, but as needed back up and a chance to regroup. Shinn should stayed the focus of the story. I do believe that Kira was supposed to stayed away from Shinn and Stella, but the writers couldn't help shoving in the frame for some more conflict. Maybe I'm moreso a fan of the potential of SEED Destiny than the series itself, but I do still like it. It's not my favorite series, but as was said, it could of been great with a few simple tweaks, which makes what the powers behind that series did even more tragic. By wanking their favorite characters, they killed their own series.
I think it is often overlooked but one of the reasons Seed Destiny fell a part was because the writer for the show, Chiaki Morosawa was in and out of Hospital during much of the production of Seed Destiny. At times she was barely able to do any work what so ever.
@@DrForrester87 Seed was popular and successful though. Irregardless of the quality of writing. She was involved in Destiny primarily because Destiny was made to capitalize on the popularity of Seed. Seed is the only Alternate Century Gundam to get a direct Sequel for a reason.
@@Alte.Kameraden I understand that. But popularity doesn't equal quality. I mean these shows had some of the worst stories, characters, character designs, mecha designs, ship designs, animation, and pacing in the entire franchise. In fact, the only way this could even hope to eek out G Reco is the fact that while I didn't like it, I understood what Seed and Destiny were about. As for its popularity, I will never understand Japan's fascination with these two shows because they are literally the antithesis of what makes a good Gundam series.
The ONA/OVA Gundam Seed C.E. 73 Stargazer is worth watching. It has potential but it's pretty short though. It doesn't have Kira and friends. It also give more perspectives on the whole colony drop like event and even though short, gives a story from two perspectives essentially.
The voice actor also voiced ed from ed edd n eddy. He should have used his ed voice instead, would've been a better fit considering how stupid Kira is.
nah fuck that- hot take: Matt Hill is far more fitting then Sōichirō Hoshi. Matt could hit the heavy emotions quite well without sounding too much like a little bitch. yea SEED started choppy in the dub but got better as the series went on
Part of the reason some people (myself included) love this show isnt because of some blind devotion or anything like that. We know completely how bad and handsdown annoying this series is. We even make fun of it. But thats not the point. We love it because for the admittedly awesome mobile suit designs it has and for the interesting concept. I personally think that if you can forget the bad writing and terrible character development (in cagallis case horrendus development), only then can you enjoy this. Despite how bad it is, you do have to admit that it does have its charming moments. Even if kira yamato is the good guy equivalent of william afton.
Dude, why are you not a Gundam Script/Storywriter. I would pay good money whit how good your what if of what Destiny could'ved done. Seriously though, you just nailed why I hated Destiny. The first half was good but after Shinn and Kira's fight alonside Shinn vs Athrun and Meyrin with Kira, Athrun and Meyrin aurviving I started to hate it. Personally, I am okay with first half Shinn, it was Final half Shinn that I hated. Anyways, great job Boo! Please do Gundam X first. I loved 00 but X was part of my childhood and I want to see it in your perspective. Lastly, now I wish you do fanfic. I wanna know how you'll do with your what if which already shapes up to how I wanted Destiny to be. The concequences, everything. I am excited for your next Gundam vid.
What I hated most about Destiny was how hard it dropped the ball. Least with Kamille I could see how he was a shit, why he was a shit, how shitty his treatment was, and how he eventually grew and realized the power of understanding. Shinn, they just dumped him in favor of a character that's recognizable...it's like how Gohan got cheated out of being the MC in Z because the (Japanese) fans wanted more Goku in charge...
I recall desiny had last minute rewrites and changes in plot points. You can see that in the intros and endings where characters that are dead in the show but alive in the opening or endings.
If not goes tomino ways, SRW Z (the first one, PS2) already gives us great aternative stories. Other than athrun, Camille comes up to follow up shinn to grow up. Also SRWZ was the first time the original voice cast : Kenichi Suzumura finally deeply understands shinn personality and characters(he's FF7 Zack's VA too btw). He really dislike for why shinn become that kind of edgelord. Also we can tell he really frustrated when the destiny ends, some fanatic fans accuse him for why destiny fails. If not because of that show he got to become intimate with Maaya Sakamoto, who eventually become his wife, may be he's ended his life as VA that time.
I remember watching this show thinking "oh this seems cool" then halfway shit was just happening and I was so confused, this explains why and what's dope is that this vid also provides some alternatives
You kind of put voice here to a lot of core problems I had with SEED Destiny but hadn't quite developed as thoroughly as you had. You're absolutely right in that the real tragedy of the series isn't that it's bad, but that it had all the ingredients to be great, and then almost systematically squandered every single one of them in the name of a wish-fulfillment fantasy.
Destiny was a mistake on the grounds that it took things introduced in SEED and trivialized them. Berserker state got trivialized, by the end of the show instead of being the state of extreme stress causing the fights reaching a higher state of thought, everyone and their mother had it, Providence's multi target turret tech got trivialized with everything and everyone getting it, Gundam fights went from amazing space slogs to just becoming who has the bigger stick in the fight, Shinn was supposed to be the protag and turned into an immature raving lunatic by the end instead of getting development. The main villain went from a cunning charismatic mystery to discount Azrael, Mu Le Flaga got brought back just so he could be a bargain bin Le Creuset. They introduced the show's only unique Gundam in Akatsuki and barely did anything with it other than referencing Le Flaga's sacrifice and doing a "NOPE! hah!".
How can you call Shinn a great character--but fail to see he's simply the most inconsistent character of the entire series. Even in the first dozen episodes, his stance changes multiple times. The biggest example is that he hates Cagalli because her father refused to bend the knee to the Earth Forces--causing the death of his parents. Then he's angry that when met with pretty much the same situation (when Cagalli is being pressured during Seed Destiny), the ORB council makes the decision to ally with the Earth Forces. He literally has two different stances on the SAME EXACT ISSUE within a couple of episodes. He's an indecisive, petulant child--which he accuses everyone else of being. When he says, "You don't understand anything!" he's literally speaking to veteran mobile suit pilots who know all of the politics going on behind the scenes. Shinn hates Cagalli for decisions her father made. He hates ORB for--being attacked because they refused to immediately surrender. He hates Cagalli and the ORB council for allying with the Earth Forces to prevent the exact sort of conflict that killed his family. Destiny isn't a train wreck because of Kira or Lacus. The character of Shinn is detestable and childish--yet he's a crack mobile suit pilot (randomly--he's just sort of 'with Zaft' after becoming orphaned) who is incredibly opinionated. Hate on Kira and Lacus all you want, at least they're consistent. Athrun forgets all of the things he learned during SEED and allows himself to be manipulated by Durandel (quite easily), while Shinn doesn't know what the hell position to take aside from, "I'm always right no matter what I say!"
Athrun gets distracted by sexy fake Lacus/Meer with the big breasts and Durandal's charismatic speeches. Also I think he's still guilty about betraying his dad from the last show a little even after he tried to kill him. Also I never understood why Athrun didn't figure out Rey being Rau's clone because the voice and the similarities would of given him some alarm bells, after all he served with Rau previously.
I know this is very late but from what I understand of the development of Gundam seed Destiny, the Japanese fan base hated shinn way before episode 27. Due to losing popularity they brought back Kira and the old cast. I personally like the Seed timeline it’s fun to watch.
1) The writer was having brain cancer and thought her husband was cheating on her with Cagalli's VA, Shinn's VA defended Cagalli's VA so his character got affected too. 2) They could've deleted Lunamaria from the cast and nothing in the plot would change, other than that there wouldn't be a shallow, forced ship at the end... Shinn would've really benefitted from Stella NOT dying and reminding him that he had once again failed to protect those (especially the girls) in he cares about in his life.
So, the archangel has to risk life and limb to get to Orb where the blue cosmos senators are waiting for an excuse to bring back Cagalli to the negotiating table? The freedom might be op but it can definitely be overwhelmed by Orb’s army. Even if we consider sneaking in, im guessing the budget wasnt there and like Kira says, it wouldve put Cagalli into the same mindset of acquiescence she was already in. Hell, even Kira and Lacus mightve fallen for it too. They needed to regroup and make sure the actions they took would not result in the same scenario as episode one. Even with overwhelming power it does, but now Kira, who was always the main protagonist of destiny, decides to take on a more active role in preserving peace through negotiation first, then combat if necessary. The movie simply re-emphasizes how Kira should never shoulder all the responsibility.
Your alternative story is perfect, especially since the original name of the Infinite Justice was the "Knight Justice". Yeah, would've fit perfectly in the sense of chivalry and protecting the weak and all.... That aside, I'll be waiting for the day you do a G Gundam video, the Gundam that Tomino actually loved.
Funny thing is, I remember that back then when Seed Destiny, that there where rumors about what happened with the story. Rumors about a far more grim story that what we seen. The only thing we get to know for real was that apparently one of the higher ups (director or writer, I don't remember clearly) get in a dispute with Kagali's VA, thus she kind of disappearing from the show. What I wanna get to is that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the theory exposed here was part of what was originally planned to happen. It does fit into something Japanese people hate the most on their media: change. Such a drastic change as having one or more main characters from the previous series would have not been well received by Japanese audiences, and the powers may be from back then, fearing the hypothetical backlash, decided to back things down before any damage was done, but in the process rehashing last season's story to keep the schedule. Again, this falls into speculation but if things went as they where originally planned, who knows, maybe Shin would be a more renowned character now a days.
@@seabookfarno8656 did you notice the Zone Of the Enders and Martian Successor Nadesico plot nods in AGE. Also RIP Studio Xebec thankfully Sunrise saved the team.
I'm gonna say this. Both shows are ultimately bad seed and seed destiny has all it's flaws and Kira (Kira at this point is an abnormality) and age has its God awful pacing they should've extended it to three seasons to which imo would've made the show much better I really liked the characters in age especially asuno But I like seed destiny's Gundam designs and seed destiny is what got me into Gundam and anime as a whole But I can't say which one is better I don't know I have mixed feelings on both series
@@barrybend7189 I DID LOL! Good on the artists in that series. Even tho some ppl didnt like how near the end of the 40s something episodes that they felt it was "rushed" I still love Age, just as much as I love 00 (1st ever gundam HD show to pull off a UC MS tribute too). My kid bro likes Age's designs so far as well ^_^
@@seabookfarno8656 studio Xebec( now Sunrise Beyond) is now doing Gundam Build Divers Re Rise. Its funny as I was wondering why the color choices were darker and the animation sharper than last season.
What makes seed destiny great is that it doesn't fall back to traditional gundam themes of fighting war with the power of positivity or some shit, it's about economics being substituted as a new religion "It can't be helped" is the defining theme of the show, with cagalli having to cede political power to the nationalist faction so they can give orb tech to the earth alliance that explicitly wants to genocide coordinators because of a plot by durandal to drop a colony on earth, resulting in a self-propagating war economy similar to the one created by bush and cheney in response to 9/11, and this plays out in a predictable pattern, like a seed in javascript The thematic reason for seed mode is when characters fall in to roles you would expect them to, like hero who brings order and beats up the bad guys, but people don't easily fall in to specialized roles, because they aspire to create their own identities in a world that feels like it is accelerating because of the amount of problems that can't be helped All individuals want is a sense of freedom, to accelerate at their own will in an accelerating universe, and cultivating this sense of freedom is emboldened by market forces that lead people down individual hero's journeys that are ultimately meaningless, hence why shinn wields a double-edged sword called excalibur and fights gundams named after beings from hesiod's theogony I think the message of the story isn't that war is mean, but rather that we will never feel like our lives were worth anything so long as we adhere to the path determined by market forces, which explain's meer's arc TL:DR I think the story has a lot more heart and meaning than westerners give it credit for, and just going by a literal interpretation of the story points to shinn as the self insert character, because he repeatedly gets cucked by the two party system (freedom and justice, blue and red) but luna loves him anyway, similar to fukuda and his wife Also, posting some lore that can't be sourced about fukuda and his wife is counterproductive, and doesn't reinforce humanity's understanding of anything
Like your thoughts for your version of SEED Destiny. It was kinda frustrating watching Shin being pigeon holed into a final antagonist against Athrun despite all the small doubts he showed across the back half of GSD. I just kept hoping for the guy to finally hit the breaking point and realize Durandal wasn't who he should be fighting for. Even something as simple as having Shin thrash Lunamaria's Impulse in the final battle and face turn after realizing what he's doing would have been a better character arc for the guy. Instead we get a shot of him laying useless on the moon as Kira and Athrun solve everything. There wasn't really any weight to anything outside him and Athrun's battle either, Rey Za Barrel wasn't a bad character but he's hardly as strong a villain narratively as Rau Le Cruset was. Mu and Athrun smashing Requiem and Kira destroying the Messiah happen way too easy to be satisfying, and Durandal's death at Rey's hand didn't exactly make much sense to me. SEED's ending sticks with me a bit, because every side of the conflict was fighting with such desperation, every part of it contributed to a growing sense of despair as near senseless conflict sought to consume everyone, the outcome Rau Le Cruset saw as the inevitability of mankind. While Destiny's ending is kinda of just a flat review of SEED's ending while lacking the narrative weight that made SEED's work in my opinion.
Thank you so much man. I loved Destiny 1st half but was always frustrated with the 2nd. Now I can imagine a better outcome for the zaft team thanks for your hard work.
Not gonna Lie Boofire, I was with 100% until you gave Lunamaria the Strike Freedom. Lol but in reality I liked your reimagining of the ending. Much more in line with Gundam
Thank you. I've been saying this for years. SEED Destiny had a lot of potential. And a great theme of 'Good Intentions can go horribly awry'. ...buuuut then the show happened.
it is also an objective fact that Kagali was trying and failing; and the final proof of that is the fact that the marriage would be the move in which Unato and the other Emirs would take power through her. And again, there ware scenes in which Kira was showing hesitations about his actions. As per force used by Archangel against Minerva: Minerva is a subordinate under the command of the administration that tried to kill you, do you honestly think in a battlefield situation they can take the time to sit down and talk. As per the Stella incident, there are IFF and communication frequencies used by allied forces, I sincerely doubt enemies would be actively talking during a fight (except for Kira and Athrun, it makes sense they would talk during the fight as they know each other). Also, Shin is a parallel of Athrun, he saught power as he watched those he loved dies. the thing that differentiate them is the turn they take. Shin is the worst case scenario which is swallowed up by power; whereas athrun remained struggling and woke up to the manipulation of the chairman later on. but i do agree in most of your points on shin actually killing Kira. but for that to be the turning point for shin to be a hero, yeah. thats a stretch. Shin never let go of his past. he kept his sister's phone remember? as for using force to stop the conflict: in SEED OG, Lacus even said during the first launch of the METEOR system that they were probably being evil and hypocritical for they call for peace but with guns in their hands. They never claimed they are in the absolute right, but are rather people fighting for what they believe in, they just happened to be right in the end.
No disrespect intended. One point is accurate: some will hate it, some will love it. I will say that in latin: DE GUSTIBUS NON EST DISPUTANDUM. (yes, latin is almost invariably written in capital letters). Seems to me its a pure exercise of mental masturbation, and taken to very serious levels. In other words, a -what if- scenario. Wishful thinking. It went how it went. Nothing will change. Could have it been better? Certainly. But consider it could have been much worse. And I am quite happy to have been able to be entertained (ok, mostly entertained) for the lenght of the whole run). Yes. IT´S A GUNDAM! Seriously... No show is perfect ;)
Watched it when it first came out, kinda surprised it's taken this long for reviews criticizing it to reach me, it was only recently I learned about the studio drama which actually got me feeling bad for Shinn finally. I always hated Shinn tunnel visioning Kira for Stellar and not even thinking about Neo instantly breaking his promise, iirc he didn't really think of her again until Arthurun yeeted him into the moon. My only disagreements are very minor, 8:28 Kiras sword is at his side, not the ready, he very much seemed like he was descending to land and observe what was going on, he can't have known Stellar was some drug lab baby that would get triggered at seeing him. You do raise a good point though in that they NEVER get on the fucking radio with each other at any point which would have helped so much. Conflicted on Kira dying to Shinn, while I agree that would've been a good plot point for building Shinn I feel like the whole "you're the ultimate Coordinator Harry!" from the first show would've been completely pointless.. though now that I'm trying to think about it... did it ever have a point? I don't recall him seeing to have any abilities or what have you that others didn't, SEED mode certainly wasn't unique to him. My biggest problem with that Freedom vs Impulse scene was always that it didn't feel like a show of skill as I've seen most people say but a plot device to force Kira to need a new suit, a point imo reinforced by how, when he gets his new suit you've got friggin Bartfeldt holding his own in a desert model mobile suit in space while Kira gets there in a suit he's mastered and is getting it melted damn near instantly, basically he's rushed along into his new suit asap by the plot. That said you're lines about kira dying, then Arthrun later dying to Shinn and Shinn growing from that are far better than what I can remember the show ending with... anyway, this was a good video.
I don't think killing kira and athrun would have been good but making sure they stuck as mentor for shinn would have been better, in short making them like amuro and char in zeta for camille. A fight between shinn with the destiny against rey's legend would have been better than the no match we got at the end because seriously the infinite justice and the strike freedom were really OP.
So basically, rather than asking the writers to NOT butcher the original characters, you want a repeat of Iron Blooded Orphans with Neo-Camille standing as the new main character.
About the explosion at the end if the Freedom vs Impulse fight, that was from the Minerva's positron cannon, which was aimed at the Archangel, and i don't recall the Freedom being that close to said positron cannon shot. Positrons are antimatter, only 2 grams of which can destroy any city on the planet.
![[ガンプラ] やすりの親父だけで面出しする すごく良い！ MGガンダムMk-V](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/k9PKjf5TGZ8/mqdefault.jpg)
This is why when Kira's actions were called out by everyone in Super Robot Wars Z it was so beautiful. SRW fixed a core problem and made the events of the show better, it helped that you could save Stella aswell.
Didn’t Kira get slapped by shinji in the Games?
Can you link me a video where this happens, I'd love to see it
@@heavyheart9685 idk, i havent seen it before even though it would be an S tier moment
@@santiagogarcia1606 Shinji as in Shinji Ikari? Get in the robot Shinji? Baka Shinji?
@@sandlax9509 yes I mean that shinji
The funniest part of your proposed ending of Destiny would be if Lunamaria got the Strike Freedom and STILL had trouble hitting anything in spite of all the guns her new Gundam had.
She did well in the Impulse, so what could wrong in a Strike gundam ?
@@AnthroGearhead strike Gundam?! Strike Gundam and Strike Freedom are completely different unit 😅
Not confused about it
Why if i dont want to say it ?
I think lunamaria is melee than range
So something melee Ms she need
She have bad aim at begining
Like infinite justice design for athrun melee ability
Lunamaria is innocent. She has never wanted to kill Athrun or Shinn as well. She has did some part to stop their fighting.
_"Just because your correct doesn't mean your right"_
"People die when they are killed."
"I shall proceed to pleasure myself with this fish"
Mr. jamrob “this city really looks like a city!”
holy shit thats an anti-tank rifle.....
*HOLY SHIT THATS AN ANTI-TANK RIFLE!*
@@LordRyan9999 "I understand it all now! The true reason for my wrath! I could not stand it! There is always some fool who wants to rule the world! Always forcing others to do what they cannot do for themselves!"- Asura
What seed did right was naming titular gundams on philosophy, this actually reflects zaft's true ideals instead of Earth alliance's violent naming conventions: calamity, strike, blitz, raider, forbidden, blitz, buster, duel. Well, even aegis is technically a shield used only in war. Scratch that, they zaft had abyss and chaos that's tacked on with Gaia, foreshadowing the events of seed destiny where Gaia is once again plunged into abyssal chaos.
Stellar is a girl who represents innocence in the face of violence. Her actions are motivated by her aversion to death. She symbolises the world of the cosmic era at that point. Which is why she is grouped with chaos and abyss every time she sorties. But this later became destruction (destroy). Kira killing stellar implies his failure to save the world from destruction due to his failure to understand the conflicts happening at that time. I agree, kidnapping cagali and not opening up to a talk with the orb nobilities is his fatal flaw. He arbitrates by striking and acting on impulse, thereby limiting freedom.
Your fanfic just cranked it up to 11. My understanding of destiny isn't the cycle of hatred. Pitting shin's destiny against durandal's destiny plan was something I really hoped to watch. Durandal's view of destiny is through taking away the freedom of everyone. Which opposes shin's as his gundam rose from freedom's ashes as he discards his impulse.
The destiny of humanity is freedom and justice eternal, it requires faith in humanity for that to be achieved.
Shin's character growth will begin with him killing freedom and the pretentious archangel (shout out to Lucifer who thinks he can play god with his power and charisma) out of impulse. He kills justice (athrun) because he thinks that it is his destiny (duty bound as a soldier and having lost his freedom). Before he finally defects after a lot of self doubt due to the dissonance between protecting others he love and ended up killing them instead. Lunamaria begins to blame shin for the loss of her sister and crush and loses grasp of her sanity and become an emotional wreck.
Lunamaria will battle shinn with her impulse to avenge the death of her sister and her crush. Because impulse is an immature emotion due to failure to understand one's true destiny And the struggles of humanity, it will be destroyed by shinn but the core splendour and lunamaria is captured by shinn. Essentially making it out as shinn saving lunamaria's humanity (her splendid core), which he could not for stellar who had been engulfed by. death and destruction. His success is not because he acted on impulse, but because he understood his true destiny (protecting the weak (lunamaria and her immature impulses) with his power, which was what Kira and the immature shinn failed to do with stellar due to shinn's immature impulses and Kira's twisted notion of freedom).
The two reconcile and lunamaria joins the eternal and pilots a new mobile suit (Faith gundam (long range support gundam to support destiny) cementing her faith in shinn's ideal destiny for humanity. Now it sets the stage for their fight against durandal's destiny.
Durandal's destiny is nihilistic, and legend essentially represents legacies of the past which stems from their belief in the twisted providence (le crueset). Notice how durandal essentially wants to play god when he is only human? Seeing as the main core faith pilots have deserted Rey is promoted into white uniform zaft captain. Implying that durandal no longer has faith in humanity. Whereas the clyne faction does.
Shinn's destiny and Luna's faith represents humanity's hope. Both rose from the ashes of the fallen ideals of freedom and justice.
It's essentially a battle of mankind's destiny of eteranal freedom and justice against durandal's destiny plan that is unjust and robs people's freedom. Whereas le crueset wants to bring an end to humanity because. Durandal wants to bring an end to what makes us human.
We can lose freedom and the justice in the short term. But we must never forget humanity's true destiny and have faith in them. For in doing so, we can bring forth another age of freedom and justice. Humanity is destined for goodness (that is what the clyne faction and the eternal represents)
I'd do away with strike freedom and infinite justice. It's a bad concept with lazy naming sense. Infinite justice as a melee gundam with crazy amount of blades essentially implies that you mete out justice with infinite cuts. Strike freedom is an amalgamation of everything powerful in C.E. which implies that only the powerful can be free. That is Kira's flawed idealism and even Kira yamato, despite his power as the ultimate coordinator and his gundam, falls prey to his own impulses using force and killing a certain stellar individual instead of saving her from death and destruction. Which is why he meets his end under shinn's impulse.
Ma Gundam Seed Destiny would've been better if you were the director
That is not what I'd do.
Also, your symbolism interpretation is magnificent.
Besides, Kira didn't know who or what Stella was. All he saw was a giant monster killing innocent people and destroying everything around it. When Shinn failed to calm her, Kira stopped her the only way he could at the moment. He must know by now the full story.
😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
Poor Stella.
When your fanfic is a 100x more interesting than the actual 2nd half of Destiny.
I done a bit of that too
My cringe ass fanfic was that shinn kill kira but at the cost a arm and a eye(how the fuck is the impulse still active from that nuke explosion) and earned the title as similar as big boss but shinn feel like shit about it
Mines just focus on the girl pilots that dont deserved to die
Honestly, I have to wonder about the suggested alternative. It's better than what we got, easily so, but it's still... I don't know. Like, for all the talk about how peace can't be achieved through force, that's still all the story has some of the same problems. Like, using force against those who would simply try to impose their views on the world is still using force to have your will (or the possibility for the world you want, if you want to be pedantic about it) become reality, isn't it? These scenes of characters coming together in spite of all their grievances are great and all, but it's also kind of small in the grand scale of things. I agree there's great room for tragedy and irony, but it feels like the talk of trying to reach an understanding between enemies outside of the small, individual moments (and even then, you would have to wonder about the weight of these little moments and how much they mattered in the big picture, which would be another interesting theme to explore) seems kind of silly at this point. War's BEEN declared here. Soldiers are already out fighting and dying. Boo mentioned Shinn doing what he can for the greater good. Shouldn't that goal be more intimate then? I guess I'm thinking it could be like the case in the Hobbit where the main character and his company aren't necessarily the ones to end the war, but they do their part helping those in need and making the final victory possible.
And I can't get around the Newtype shit here, even understanding it through Boo's lens. One can understand the intent and the thematic importance of something, but if its execution sucks, then it sucks. The perspective about the tragedy of murder for Newtypes has (as far as I'm concerned) been done right only once in Gundam Unicorn when Banagher almost kills Marida, and even then, the moment only has as much power as it does because they made the effort to establish Marida as a character beforehand and create a bond with her. It wasn't used as a shortcut to get out of writing relationship development but was rather used to strengthen the bond that had already been there, to begin with.
Also, I can't with the choices regarding mobile suits. I get the symbolism behind choosing the Impulse, but really? You're just going to leave the superior suit tailor-made to complement your skillset? The machine cleaving mobile armors in two with one stroke of the blade? REALLY? What happened to "do what you can"? If the suit's so unsightly as it is, take it and fix it up the way you would want it! The message remains the same, adds points of technical competence on Shinn's set, and the choice made still remains practical. More importantly, it keeps Shinn out of the Infinite Justice, which is one thousand times a plus. Some things just should not be....
@@laststrike4411 i cant imagine how Shin look like in the Justice Gundam
Boofire, I'm gonna say this: One part of the entirety of the Destiny trainwreck rests SOLELY on the writer and director of the show, Chiaki Morisawa and her husband Mitsuo Fukuda. At the time the show was going on, she had brain cancer and turned in the scripts late. Not only that, she falsely accused Cagalli's Seiyou of having an affair with Fukuda, and Shinn's Seiyou stood up for her, hence why their characters got shat on by her as a result. Cagalli's Seiyou didn't come back as a result until SD Gundam G Generation World to voice Cagalli again.
The only good things that came out of Destiny's trainwreck was that Shinn's Seiyou married Lunamaria's Seiyou and Super Robot Wars Z basically RIGHTING THE WRONGS that Destiny made. Shinn's Seiyou even proclaimed that Shinn in Super Robot Wars Z is the "True" Shinn, cause Shinn ACTUALLY gets character development in it compared to the actual show.
Seed AS A WHOLE needs a SERIOUS REBOOT at this point.
Seed: OK
GsD: OK till ep 28
Reboot/Reinvention: 100%
Remove Kira, Lacus and the Freedom (Both of them) and you'll have a great show
That's what happened? Wow, that sounds brutal for all sides, sad that the fighting ground had to be a show with good potential.
Wow, I knew _some_ of that (Cagali's VA sleeping w the director, Shinn getting proper and good character treatment in a video game, _Destiny's_ writer dying a few years ago), but not the whole thing.
Coincidentally, most Japanese _Gundam_ fans rejected _Gundam W_ when it came out, but it was America's introduction through _Wing_ that leads to the confusion. _Japan's_ answer to the eff-up in _W_ was the remake _Gundam 00_ (which was not only _my_ introduction to Gundam, but remains one of my favorite entries in the franchise). The reason I bring up the relationship between _W_ and _00_ is that _maybe_ at some point in the future, instead of making an _anime_ of _Crossbone Gundam_ they'll instead skip over that yet again and make a remake of the CE Timeline.
_Here's the catch: SEED_ and _SEED Destiny_ are already remakes in-and-of-themselves, having been based on _0079, Z_ and _ZZ!_ So, in effect, to redo the CE timeline, you're basically having to revisit UC yet again and do _that_ all over again. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this, just that _that_ is what would end up happening _if_ a cleaned-up remake of the CE Timeline were called for.
00 *isn't* a remake to Wing, guys. But if you want to see a version of Wing that actually is good compared to the Original, read the Glory of Losers Manga. It fixes up the problems that the Wing anime had.
Also, the Cosmic Era is *not* a remake of the UC timeline. It's similar, but it's it's own thing. Hence why I said it needs to be rebooted. U.C is still it's own thing and STILL is going on at this time.
I actually loved the start of Seed Destiny: particularly the destabilizing terrorist attack by people who just couldn't forgive or forget the Bloody Valentine incident, the colony drop that's blasted to bits but still causes widespread devastation - and the way this pushes a fragile peace toward a seemingly inevitable war, dragging even the divine nation of Orb down into the fray.
Imagine, for instance, if Cagalli had stayed in control of Orb - and found herself obligated to conduct this war effort herself, despite her pacifist ideal - rather than Orb's involvement in the war being the product of a bunch of weasels undermining her authority, instead it's a seemingly necessary and difficult step in order to defend the nation...
I dunno, I feel like armchair quarterbacking the show after the fact is a bit meaningless - but at the same time there were elements there I was really enjoying, and I like to think about how it could have played out if those were upheld instead of undermined.
The beginning felt like Stardust Memory, at least to me. The Minerva could've add the three original test pilots; Riika (Gaia), Mare (Abyss) & Courtney (Chaos) with Mare butting heads with Shinn on who's should've be Impulse's rightful pilot much like how Monsha and Kou with the GP-01.
Welcome to the “Disappointed in Destiny club” man (been a member since the series ended). The most frustrating about Gundam Seed Destiny is that it honestly could’ve been one of the best Gundam series ever, sadly instead of portraying Kira and Shinn as equal good guys with their point of view of what is right, the show devolves into fan fiction tier awfulness. It’s a shame, since I do like some of the characters and mobile suits (yes I do like Shinn and the Destiny). In your version, I personally would have Shinn keep the Destiny as a way of choosing his own “destiny” so to speak.
Actually, i got excited when Boofire stated that Lunamaria driving the Destiny was a great imvestment, i mean she got her own in Gundam Crossrays
@Santiago Scarpino can you recommend me some of the fanfiction
?
Santiago Scarpino Funny you say that, I’ve been working on my own fanfic of Destiny for a while.
well it a tvshow and they care more about finish the damn thing rather than had good ending... we fix it in moive.. wait... we don't had time... and gave up...
Paste the link. I wanna read them!
8:30, To be fair, team Kira knew that ZAFT was targeting Lacus for assassination, it make sense that they didn't attempt to contact them, because they couldn't trust anybody from ZAFT, any careless move from their end would have endangered Lacus. And I also understand their doubt with Athrun because even Athrun despite being aware of Meer being a fake Lacus didn't do anything about it so the reaching out to the Minerva argument isn't really a strong one in my opinion. But attacking them for pacifism (TWICE) was pretty damn stupid I agree, they should have went to ORB in the first place...
They did reach out to athrun thought? During which Kira asked Athrun about the "Other Lacus". They could have reached out to the pilot of the Buster Gundam, Yazk, and a few other trusted people from ZAFT such as the former Chairwoman.
@@zerolsr2228 They didn't reach out to Athrun. Athrun reached out to THEM. Also, while the Terminal could have got in contact with Yzak and Dearka, they never did.
Lol yeah u’re right. His argument here doesn’t makes sense. Kira wasn’t in the wrong, it’s Athrun’s fault. He should’ve been acting as a bridge between two worlds, but what he did instead was dawdling around like a brainless person
Since you mentioned Shinn losing some respect for Athrun after the events of episode 28, I noticed another bit of wasted potential regarding that.
Episode 28 didn't just come with the destruction of the Savior. Rey's Zaku Phantom and Luna's Zaku Warrior were also destroyed (thanks a lot, Kira). The Impulse was the only functioning mobile suit the Minerva had from then until getting the Destiny and Legend at Gibraltar. This should naturally put a lot of pressure on Shinn to become as strong as possible to protect the whole crew because Rey, Luna, and Athrun can't back him up in battle. But the story never gets any milage out of that scenario since the Minerva docks at a ZAFT base and receives support more or less immediately and Shinn's arc moves to focus on Stella's release, death, and revenge on the Freedom earlier than it needed to.
The biggest sin of Seed Destiny was switching the protagonists so early in the series. The first 10 or so episodes were really good but then it shifted its focus back to Kira and everyone else. Even though Shinn was an angry douche most of the time, at least he had character flaws, unlike Kira. He deserved a better character arc than becoming the chairman’s butt boy.
There were three points where Destiny could have added rocket fuel to its plot and character development, and it wimped out each time. The first was not assassinating Lacus. That would have instantly both given the Archangel crew some legit gravity to stage their little battlefield interventions AND justified Meer's existence in the show.
The second was not killing Kira off, as you stated, which could have had a profound effect on Athrun and polarized HIS character arc.
And the third was not killing Athrun and Meyrin off, as you also stated, which should have been the turn for Shinn. But ah well...
If Meyrin was dead, what that makes Lunamaria then ?
@@AnthroGearhead a supporting character that becomes more interesting
@@Matanumi A.she will blame Shin heavily for this
B.quit Zaft by taking the Impulse Gundam
If Zaft didnt try to off Lacus the Arkangel and gang would of been less likely to start getting involved. Allowing for the show to follow the Minerva better and develop them as the heros.
9
It was a nice review and all but you see, at this moment...
Cagalli is crying her heart out!
This show did my girl Cagali dirty 😣
and Athrun actually is moved by that speech????? WTF
Seed fans when you critisize their series
"Kira 'Jesus' Yamato"
Me: "MUST. SUPRESS. CRUSADE. URGES."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH..."
All these gundam puns and here I am staring at Calamity and Providence intently.
@@TheKing-qz9wd
My Forbidden rises.
Wait what happened to my reply about that gundam's back pack? Why is it gone?
DEUS VAULT INTENSIFIES
@@TJJones-ck7gj
*vult
Also
*YES*
A better analogy:
SEED: The Force Awakens
First half of GSD: The Last Jedi
GSD, from episode 39 onwards: The Rise of Skywalker, the final season of Game of Thrones
Stargazer: The Mandalorian
In Seed Trilogy it kinda mess up Star wars,that Alowed the Villain's to get away,and mess thing's up.
That's a pretty good analogy.
Okay, no. If you're going to use Star Wars, at least use the prequels.
First half of GSD: Attack of the Clones
Second half of GSD: Revenge of the Sith
Final half of GSD: The battle of Mustafar
Seed astray:legends.
Reintroducing Kira and his gang is the biggest mistake on GSD. Kira should've died at the end of SEED alongside with Mu. Neo should've been at least Mu's clone, not exactly the same person. It would be a lot more interesting if they depict Eternal as a villain, not the saviour of the universe they claimed to be. I want to see how corrupt Lacus' ideals could've become, I want to see Meer's approach to this kind of problem instead of Meer being a generic popstar.
You know the final blast that GENESIS did? Ya that Gamma burst laser superweapon's final gasp HIT the Freedom. How is Kira not a fine pink mist IDK.
About damn time somebody said this.
Also...once phantom pain got eliminated and Neo got captured...that was it for interesting and formidable EA characters...making it a very one sided battle. Let's fact facts- by CE 73 EAs military stinks in cool character ace pilots and they all defect or suck by that time- they get by on sheer numbers....
Then Minerva, our series flagship ,becomes a target due to duandal becoming a bad guy. It hurts
Kira (and Lacus) should have been put on a bus until near the very end, only making occasional appearances until the final few battles (maybe as Athrun calling Kira in for backup) but the shift to him and Lacus shouldn't have happened because up until him quite literally stealing the show, it was Athrun and Shinn who were the focus characters.
According to an interview with director of the Seed Destiny on magazine, Kira and Lacus are antagonist
I picked up DW Gundam 2 again lately, and immediately play Shinn's story, because this is the only time I've ever seen Shinn roasting Kira and Athrun for their hypocrisy lol
And I love the way Shinn bonded with Loran and Kamille in that story mode too, those two makes a surprisingly good mentor figures for him
The point when Shinn stopped asking questions, and started blindly following Durrandal and Rey was when he dropped right off the radar for me. Being an unquestioning puppet meant he lost his character by definition. It could be anyone in the Destiny's cockpit after that point, it wouldn't have mattered.
I don't think _Archangel_ thought they were right in the absolute, however I do agree they should have tried to talk more, to persuade the other forces to lay down their arms instead of fighting. They could have hailed _Minerva_ before the latter charged the Tannhauser, and then Kira wouldn't have had to shoot it out, killing any crew too close to the massive gun.
As to Cagalli being able to direct Orb toward peace, unfortunately she had been reduced to a puppet figure by that time. Of course, the _SEED_ version of Cagalli would have fought back for control. For whatever reason, she is much more of a bystander in _Destiny_ , which bothers me greatly. She used to infiltrate colonies and participate with warriors to find the answers she sought. So why is she shown standing by and waiting, being passive? Probably the same reason Shinn got shifted to the back row: because someone demanded Kira to take the spotlight.
I greatly dislike the whole 'Ultimate Coordinator' business. Saying that someone made an attempt at a 'perfect' human being, and actually achieved it in Kira, as though humanity had zero potential to go further. It's extremely pessimistic, and also egotistical. Not so much on Kira's part since he had no idea, but on the part of his creators, defining him as the end-point. Of course other humans would react by attempting to assassinate Kira, to try to wipe away this image of perfection, just as they did George Glenn and the other Coordinators. That's what happens when one race tries to assert itself as superior: th opporessed fight back. For understanding, you do not stand above the other party; you stand _with_ them, otherwise no understanding can be achieved. This is why peace never came to any _Gundam_ series: someone always tried to stand above another. And in _Destiny_ , the one trying to stand highest is Durrendal, with his plan. But so many others try to stand atop others, and therefore fire their weapons before trying to talk. Naturally this includes _Archangel_ and its crew. But like Kira, Shinn also never tried to talk. He shut others down, spoke in a way that would naturally anger them, and blamed Cagalli and Athrun for Orb's failure to protect his family. Shinn was not open because of his anger. Because of the anger, he positioned himself above others. Andthi makes him no better than those others, Kira included.
I honestly with common sense from the writers shinn would have been and Better protagonist than kira and possibly one of the best protagonist in the Gundam franchise
I heard that the reason Cagalli get's so fucked over is the writer got into a dispute/big disagreement with the VA of Cagalli, wanting to make her character seem weaker and reducing her to a plot device.
The writer and director were married.
Destiny shouldn’t have had so much focus on the Archangel and made them background or supporting characters like Char and Amuro were during Zeta so that the new cast had time to shine. I loved the idea to have Lunamaria and Shinn pilot the Strike Freedom and ♾Justice and think that would have been amazing and a great way to pass the torch to them from Kira and Athrun
I never thought Char was a background or supporting character in Zeta, he had more screentime than Amuro did in it. I think it's nice though Destiny didn't turn too much into Zeta because then it probably would have been redundant. There's already parts of the original Gundam Seed that resemble parts of Zeta also.
@@ericcaulfield4477 the point I was trying to make was that Destiny put too much focus on returning characters instead of properly building new ones. Zeta built on the returning characters but placed more focus on the new cast so that they could shine. Destiny was set up to do this with Athrun taking on Char’s role as mentor to the protagonist but ultimately shifted to focus on the Archangel crew more than the interesting characters that were introduced specifically for the season. Shinn could have been great but became very one-note towards the end and the rest of the ZAFT cast didn’t fare much better
@@ignisofficialgaming I think they tried with the whole mentoring thing with Athrun but realized he wasn't going to be a good role model for Shinn. They wrote Shinn to be too antagonistic with people which didn't help his character be likable. Even if they did sideline Kira you'd be stuck with unlikable Shinn for the majority of the show.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS THE CORE PROBLEM WITH DESTINY! Im so happy -w-
Ikr
yesss finally!!
Can we get a "Nobody understands G gundam (it isn't all about shining fingers)"
Burning finger?
I second this, although it's still about the themes of communication vs conflict, except with martial arts and KIAI
@Santiago Scarpino that's erupting god finger to you punk
shining/god fingers > shinn fingers
My keyboard is glowing red. It's loud roar is telling me to second your motion.
I watched Seed Destiny as a kid, not knowing that Seed exist. When Kira came in like I'm suppose to know who is he, I was confused as hell and totally felt the same way as you said, he feels super self righteous and ignorance. And I was super sad that they did Shin dirty for the rest of the series.
Yha I always though Kira was a hypocrite and very self righteous, even as a kid. I know people like that now in my life and its worst character trait by far.
same I thought (when kira came into the show quite heavily) that kira was the bad guy
@@Frame-hb8jb The fact people diss Shinn instead of acknowledging the wrong doings Kira did.
@@duncananderson2113 yeah I agree
@@Frame-hb8jb Shinn has been well, the first half as well the super robot wars and Dynasty warrior games for example, I thought he was a well done character.
A better second half of Seed would be, if Kira is to survive then when he next clashes with Shinn he gets called out for what he's done and have him face up to his actions but nope, we don't get that
While I do like the idea of Shin and Lunamaria becoming the pilots of the infinite justice and the strike freedom, I do think it would work a bit better to have Shin steal the Destiny when he defects as it shows him taking control of his own destiny after having been controlled by it (referring to both the cycle of hate and durendals plans for him) for so long, and in doing so creates a new future for the CE where others are free to do the same.
also, you totally need to watch Gundam SEED Stargazer, its a 3 episode OVA that takes place over the course of Destiny, and is generally considered to be one of (if not the only) truly great things to come out of the Cosmic Era.
I heard that when kira died
Arthurn should have piloted the different version of the strike freedom
While shinn defected and pilot either the Justice or Destiny
@@jrickducking6685 interesting but i rather want to see Cagali become the new mc, carrying on Kira's assignment :/
@@AnthroGearhead ....Why?
@@laststrike4411 becuz Cagali follows Kira a lot, so after his death, she should have taken over his role, i like her style in combat
@@AnthroGearhead I literally remember her doing two things once she got in a mobile suit. And no, she really shouldn't have. It would be irresponsible for a nation's leader to run off into war like that, especially when she would be far more effective in the homeland. She's not that great a fighter outside of the jets (and I don't think I need to explain how suicidal being in one of those things would be in the Destiny landscape of war), certainly no strategist, and her speeches on the battlefield are largely ineffective. So yeah, probably for the best that she stay at home and Govern her land.
00 shows this story way better. Shows how using force to make peace doesn’t work. The second season is Celestial Being realizing how wrong they were.
But at the end of the day, they still win using force, don't they?
@@laststrike4411 Their force is justified tho. The Innovater's force is they seek to eliminate any element opposing them, thus forcing them to submit, which is the opposite of CB's approach to meeting their opposition's challenge as declared. That's why CB doesn't act unless someone does because the world will then be forced to act in opposition instead of accepting them as a coming change or a wall guiding them away from the path of ruin. 2nd season started with a forceful government as the result of Innovater's meddling to vilify CB
@@laststrike4411 by the end they realize they are wrong and that sometimes force is neccessary to battle a tyrannical force much like the nazis and the Japanese during ww2.
@@laststrike4411 The ELS were pacify through understanding, so for me that gives them half a pass. That and this little line from wing "Wars are started by people, and they end with people. Hero is ordered only to attack the dangerous, evil people responsible for starting wars." I think that if Loran met Kira and learned of what he calls "pacifism" then I bet he would smack that little ass so hard that the plot armour would fall off.
CB was never wrong tho. It all went according to plan. They knew the idea of eradicating war was impossible and that there are bigger ambitions that lie ahead.
Actually, after watching this video... I'd come to realize how shallow the characters are in 00 in terms of baggage, even though it still is my 2nd fav gundam show. I guess the rich world and sci-fi element more than made up for it.
Just gonna say, I loved Shinn. Even with what happens later on, he gets a spot on my favourite Gundam character list. It's a damn shame what happened with Seed Destiny.
Me too.. And be honest im Proud to shin when he destroy freedom and kira!,
@@alexroe6063 me too
@@alexroe6063too bad after athrun destroyed him. Shinm now has a daddy issues with kira 😂
True I liked Shinn what a waste. I loved how Kira was shocked when Shinn dodged his Attack. Athrun was also wasted. He gave the shaft to Kira but then shilled to him.
Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask):
Shinn is Gone. I'm all that remains.
Mid aged Athrun:
I'm sorry.... for everything....
Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask):
I'm not your failure...
You didn't kill shinn asuka... I did..
The same way that I will... destroy you!!!
Mid aged Athrun:
Then my friend is truly dead....
Shinn(hyperventilating in a mask):
ATHRUN!!!! ATHRUUUUUN!!!
why would you like a bipolar kid that can't brain...
14:55 I don't think it's nonsensical. Shinn starts to hate Athrun because he criticized him with honesty, while Durandal and Rey just shield him and praise him no matter what he did. Being the kid that he is, Shinn will naturally lean toward Durandal and Rey instead of Athrun.
I honestly liked SEED, (Gundam SEED was my first Gundam, so it holds a special place in my heart) and Kira in the first series. However, they completely butchered his character in Destiny, and the same goes for Shinn as well as Athrun. They are ALL victims of BAD WRITING.
The first half of the series was IMO honestly very good, but like you said from the mid-point on, it was a trainwreck.
Not gonna lie: Back when Destiny was still airing I still had some hope when the duel between the Impulse and the Freedom was about to start. I hoped that this fight put Kira finally on the spot and pointed his hypocrisy out. Exposing how hard he screwed everything up until this point, from Cagalli to Stella, with the later actually getting killed thanks to him and people realizing that something like a sole savior does not exist (esspecially Athrun which would've made a lot of thematical sense in that regard).
No matter what people say: I think Shinn was right in this situation. Kira made mistake after mistake after mistake and things got worse the more he got involved, and yet nobody tried to stop him in any meaningfull way. This could've become an amazing moment if Kira would've be forced to make a choice: Either A.: Realizing that he's no different from the people he considers villains and thus start to change his ways (By directly stating he was wrong) or B.: Stay stubborn and thus getting rightfully axed by Shinn. And, yeah. I still vividly remember how much and hard I cheered when the Freedom blew up. Not only was I happy thinking he finally had gotten rid of that waste of space pilot, but I also felt proud for Shinn considering he got an amazing and straight forward victory against the definition of a Gary Stu despite having an infirior machine.
Long story short however: I share Boofires opinion on Shinn fully. If the writters would've wanted to he could have become the best protagonist in Gundams entire franchise-history.
also: Can we please get your version of seed as a remake? that would legit make for an amazing Gundam series.
EnerKaizer lol shin was just an annoying brat fighting with blind hatred in the first place
@@jacksonlam2877 let's see what happend to you if your family and everyone you hold dear gets mercd in front of you :D
ItsMR BUSHIDO he’s not qualified to be in the army in the first case with that kind of mental state
But well it’s not called anime for no reason
It’s the anime law
@@jacksonlam2877 he's mentally stable though until he got destiny
@@TuskActD4C Nah he’s extremely volatile all along
He gets even more vengeful after the death of Stellar
Didn’t Athrun chastise Kira, Cagalli, and the Archangel when they met after the first battle that the Archangel intervened in because they were making things worse? As for Shinn, I just with he’d have become a villain by his own choices instead of being manipulated.
Never thought of that. I hated shinn because his brsindead and delusional.
But if he went full villian it would have been great
All this shit would've been avoided if the incident with Cagalli and Shinn's VAs didn't escalate and Kira's gang to never have that much significance. Kira can still show up, yes. He can use the Freedom and do some cool stuff but never in the level that he did in GSD. Maybe more of a silent defender for Lacus.
I like your idea of killing Kira on this but I do think killing Athrun and Meyrin is maybe a bit too Tomino. I think it's fine if he stops midway in his murder-spree on Athrun and realizes it there with which causes them to get away. Then, when Shinn deserts the Minerva he goes to ORB and meets up with Athrun there and then they get, well, I wanna say something like:
The Infinite Justice and some sort of Freedom Impulse?
Also, Athrun is the only sensible character in this show.
As someone who watched Destiny as it was coming out in Japan back in 2004 (My god I'm old), I understand how BOOFIRE feels. The last half is a complete shit show and 14 years later just thinking of the show pisses me off. For all of SEED's faults, I thought it was an okay show in the same vain as Gundam Wing: It wasn't bad but wasn't good either. After watching Destiny, even to this day, I can't watch SEED because it makes me think of Destiny and I can't get through it. Believe me, I thought also that Destiny had so much potential, that it could be better than its predecessor. But when Kira showed up with the Freedom freshly rebuilt, I knew something was off. I remember when me and a buddy watched the Impulse vs Freedom episode, we were so happy seeing the Freedom get blown up even though we both knew Kira survived. That's how frustrated I was with Kira and his bullshit. I think that's when I knew this show was dead and nothing could revive it.
I really like BOO's way of fixing the last half of Destiny and would like to hear a more in depth version of it just out of curiosity. I understand his meaning of Shinn getting Infinite Justice and Lunamaria getting Super Freedom but I think just giving him the Destiny probably would have been more marketable. But then again I doubt Bandai/Sunrise would allow their money maker Jesus Yamato to die or Fukuda and Morisawa would have the brain cells needed to come up with that scenario.
One final thing I'll say is something that wasn't brought up is how the whole Mu La Flaga/Neo Roanoake ordeal was dealt with. I thought there could be more to it than Mu survives the ending of SEED and has memory altered, even though he clearly died i.e being vaporized by ship beam cannon plus helmet floating in the vacuum of space with blood around it equals dead. Needless to say this didn't set well with me. Again, a lot of potential wasted. Anyway, loved the review and am now subscribed. Keep up the good work.
Speaking of Neo, it would have been nice if he had actually payed for his war crimes instead of being instantly forgiven by joining Team Kira
You know later astray novels talk about carbon humans- essentially a better newer version of Rau-being based off of fallen combat warriors in battle.
The show could be easily written to say that Neo is indeed a clone
What are your feelings about Destiny now that Gundam Seed Freedom has been announced?
Will you also be analyzing Gundam Seed Freedom after uts released?
I want to point out in SRW Z1 the whole cast bash Kira and crew for there actions. They did kind of bring justice to Seed Destiny.
This crossover but it need be fix with canon characters
I don’t try say srw z1 version is bad
But l say it need a canon fix
Poor boofire... he heard the warnings and he went through with it anyways. And now he has been fully revealed to the love of Team Jesus Yamato.
I sympathize, dude- the CE timeline SUCKS from a story perspective.
At least Stargazer is actually good.
@@suiken3149
I was so turned off by the end of both series that I was more-or-less numbed to anything _good_ that _Stargazer_ might have offered.
The Strike Noir was kinda neat, but that's about all I remember from it.
@@EVAUnit4A Maybe try Astray, while it's not the best story I've seen it is decent compared to the animes.
@@nedinnis6752
_Astray_ also had some nice MS designs (I also crush on Red Frame, sorry!), but that the episodes were so short was, well, disorienting. I think I only saw the Blue and Red episodes, but it's been so long since I saw them that I've forgotten most of it at this point.
CE itself has so much fucking potential to be just as fleshed out and interesting thanks to all the side info and crazy shit happening in Astray.
and fucking stargazer....needed to be more then 3 OVAs. you could tell that by the end of the show they were running out of budget/animation looked...eh
My comment is 2 years late but you are absolutely right. Shinn had so much potential, but was executed SO POORLY that I could only laugh. The part imo when he could have switched sides. Was during the battle in the rain with athrun. It may be too idealistic, but In my mind, I wished THAT was when Shinn fended off Rei delivered a blow that incapacitated the Providence with Destiny took Athrun and Meyrin in the rain and fled.
There’s a very easy thing they could’ve done for Destiny, and all they had to do was copy a TNT made for tv movie from the late 90s with Sam Shepard and Dennis Quaid.
“Purgatory” is a movie about all the famous wild west gunfighters resurrected and given a second chance at a pacifist lifestyle to earn their ticket into heaven. A young man who tagged along with a pack of truly villainous outlaws stumbles into the likes of Wild Bill, Jesse James, and Billy the Kid.
The young man, named Sonny, eventually has to make a choice and risk his life for what’s right. It’s through this decision of self sacrifice that all the famous gunfighters come out of the woodwork for one last, dare I say biblical, showdown.
That’s what Destiny could’ve been: Shinn as the voice of empathy, passion, and retribution, that convinces all these famous ace pilots and crew from SEED to come out of hiding, and stand up for one last mission to kill off Blue Cosmos, and give the rest of humanity a chance to defuse the situation.
I couldn't stand Athrun's character. He comes across as indecisive and can only think when Kira tells him to. Also the fact that he defects from Zaft twice with no repercussions really gives the impression that Athrun's entire character is just being Kira's friend
Athrun, the biggest traitor in the Gundam series?
Athrun is too easily swayed by people in authority. Kira and Lacus are not. Athrun and Cagalli, on their own, lack the ability to stand up to authority. That's a key aspect of their characters. Even when Athrun KNOWS something is wrong, he tends to go along with it. This is something that a lot of people (or most people) suffer with during wartime.
@@xunnian5305 Athrun is a weird way to spell Glemy Toto.
@@slow17motion he is literally a super human
Athrun had THE most potential in GSD. We could have seen him choose to stand on his own two feet, mentor a team of young pilots to overcome their prejudices and hate, work within ZAFT to undermine Dullindal's plan, face and overcome his father's legacy, maybe even usher in a new era of politics in PLANT and help it demilitarise. Instead, the writers made him regress to his indecisive, fifteen-year-old self and chained him to a series of hypocritical principles and possibly the most irritating, big-mouthed and self-righteous "friends" to ever exist.
I fundamentally disagree with any attempt to fix the destiny train wreck plot by having Shinn switch sides. That kind of thing is what makes the original SEED so much worse than 0079 to begin with. Amuro is just a soldier for example. He might have his own ideals but he is a kid in over his head at the end of the day. Shinn should fight for ZAFT until the conclusion of the conflict but continue to grow as a person.
As someone who watched Seed Destiny in full, and who saw Shinn redeemed in SRW Z like GinraiPrime666 detailed, I think your video was extremely interesting, particularly pointing out the deeper meaning of "Destiny". I'll check out your other videos and probably comment again. And yes, the troubled production needed a little courage!
As somebody who likes SEED and SEED Destiny, I respect your and many others' opinions on those shows.
Weird. I thought you would have talked about Neo Roanoke being Mu La Flaga.
8:19 - Kira does stay away. Just coincidentally, there's a small explosion, Stella just happens to see Freedom because the story demands it, then freaks out and goes full berserk mode ready to blast Shinn point blank range. The Minerva was about to fire at her too, but Kira deals the killing blow.
Stella: i can be free now? Guess my work here is done, take me home Shin :)
Shin: climb on board quick, this thing is going to blow
Stella: *stood up and suddenly Freedom shows up behind the Impulse with bad intention* ohh no ! Shin get back get back !! *tries to hit the Freedom but late when its sword hits the cockpit while avoiding me but i fell out of the wreckage, Shin saved me again but that was a close call*
To add, I also don't think Kira & Shinn was in the same radio frequency when Shinn was yelling at Freedom to stop attacking Destroy Gundam.
@@androyus if Kira stood back, Shinn would have been fried.
@@akaneriyun4774 If Kira never appeared... Shinn would have gotten Stella back home... Together with a Destroy Unit in tow for ZAFT...
@@jasperreyes5174 if Kira never appeared, more of Berlin would be ashes. Stella was an unhinged, crazy girl that was on the verge of snapping at the sight of any threatening thing. I guarantee you that such an existence is too dangerous to be kept alive.
Um, why would Team Kira even consider talking with a Zaft ship after a bunch of Zaft spec ops tried to kill them in their sleep? Gee I wonder. Here's a better question, why didn't the Minerva just sit in port instead of trying to force their way through to their destination. They knew after the first battle the EA was waiting for them. Heading out when you know there's two hostile opponents waiting for you is more stupid. Why didn't Talia go back to base and go "Hey guys, little help here, massive alliance fleet on our doorstep base camping us."
And if you're going to call Kira arrogant for just hovering and lowering his altitude when things were calming down, how about we bash Shinn in the face harder for giving the mentally unstable girl back to the alliance monsters who made her in the first place, like that's beyond stupid naivety that an enemy commander wouldn't put her right back into a mobile suit or be ordered to.
At 10:40 you kind of hit the whole point of the original war right on the head, people didn't talk their differences out and started firing nukes at each other as a first resort. Team Kira tried to talk it out in the first war, it ended up with Mu getting 'killed', three of Kagali's friends getting killed, who knows how many people just doing their jobs while crazy leaders Zala and Azreal were firing nukes around. Sorry but I can see why they's basically go with "Disarm first, talk later." when "Talk first, disarm later" worked out SOOOO well to the point it lead to another war. Also you know technically Kira is in the ORB military right, so him actually shooting first at Zaft when they're an enemy state of ORB at the start, especially after they invaded his country to try to kill innocents, is not really a ding on him yeah? It's a ding on his ideals, but not on reality, he's firing at an enemy nation. Ooops.
And for the fifty millionth time, that explosion was not from the Freedom, it was caused by the Minerva firing off it's main cannon. Go watch EVERY time that cannon hits something, same blast. That and nuclear reactors don't explode like nuclear bombs do, especially if they don't have non-enriched fuel. Shinn never really did much by stabbing the Freedom in the gut, he missed the reactor and the cockpit, what tore both machines apart was there batteries being drained when they got hit by the Minerva's anti-matter explosion happening behind them. The only reason the Impulse survived period is the Freedom took most of the blow for the Impulse as Shinn had a Freedom shaped shield between him and the explosion. They BOTH should have died in that, but it's okay for Shinn to have plot armour when something should have killed him, or he hands an enemy pilot back to the enemy commander to save her just so he can be selfish but if Kira does either of those things its a crime against good story telling.
Hell if the Freedom could ACTUALLY go nuclear, both should be dead end of story. Phase shift armour only protects against Kinetic energy and drains the battery at the rate its being taxed. A nuclear bomb in the face will drain the Impulse's batter faster than Shinn could blink not to mention PSA does NOTHING against radiation and heat as shown numerous times when machines, including the Freedom, have had to GTFO when a radiation weapon was being used, or how the Impulse and Strike almost did that whole burn up in the atmosphere thing when their pilots just barely got the machine working for it in time. Yeah no, no contest if the freedom went nuclear, Impulse would be vaporised, hell Genesis was vaporised and it had PSA WAY stronger than any MS could even handle when a nuke went off in its face.
Also I honestly don't think Zaft did a heel turn. If you look at it from the start, Durandall almost had all of the pieces he needed but Neo's group stole three of them before he was ready to take down Logos. He had the five gundams and the Minerva which could easily take down the 'terrorists' who wanted to drop Junius seven had they all been there and had decent pilots, look at what three aces did in mass production units. The alliance and especially the racist Logos would still even if Junis seven didn't hit at all have a reason to attack Zaft. Zaft would have there Stampeders and defence fleets there to defend against the retaliation, and from there well imagine the rest of the series with the Minerva having it's full Gundam and pilot compliment and each machine having ace pilots instead what they had to work with in reality. If you also notice, the Minerva for most of their journey just happens to be moving across Alliance controlled areas when Zaft was supposed to be deployed for 'self defence only'. Well little odd that you NEED a ship that's on the other side of the planet to just stroll across through areas you know it's going to get shot when you're deployed for 'self defence only'. And we even going to talk about the illegal tech in the two gundams Zaft made at the end? They didn't just whip up the Legend and the Destiny at the last minute of the war, those had to have been at least in pieces before it started. You can't just whip out brand new nuclear reactors and all the other toys the two Gundams have, or build an entire fortress complete with a GENESIS weapon in a few months. Legit at the start of the war Zaft was like "OH YEAH POSITRON CANNON, BLOCK THIS!" then was shocked when the EA actually did, seems odd that they made an invincible energy shield THAT fast after learning about the positron shield tech just after the war started.
Durandall was playing a chess game from the start long before the war, he was just forced to start earlier then planned while missing some of his pieces and having three of his big pieces taken before the game started.
I really enjoyed SEED Destiny, but something had been bothering me for a very long time, and this video touched on it.
I think Destiny's issues with the Orb battles are mostly poor direction/reasoning. Kira didn't go in because Cagalli was crying, I think that's a dumb take that ignores the real reason he said immediately after. They didn't spend as much time on the fact that Team Kira had to put everything together on their own as they needed to.
If Orb sided with ZAFT, they'd be dead before morning. If they sided with the Earth Forces, then there goes their ideals. They're alone in the fight against the entire world and then some space as well. Honestly, I think what happened was probably the best that Orb(the country) could've hoped for in that bad of a situation. They proved their "loyalty" to Earth, and once Cagalli went back, there wasn't really much ZAFT could do to them anyway.
I like your idea, but I also really like Athrun. I'd be fine with him cheating death, especially since the cockpit itself wasn't actually destroyed. What matters in your version are the themes and values of the characters, which you could still do even if Athrun and Meyrin were to come back.
Seeing this video, my child self was right
Stella should've been alive
Her presense give Shinn at least meaning.
No wonder my childself hate Stella's death
In my opinion, Stella’s presence allows us to see Shinn as someone more then an annoying screaming hypocrite. Their relationship doesn’t even have to be romantic, Stella can just remind Shinn of his little sister and he has the urge to protect her. The theme of many gundam pilots of the series is that they entered the cockpit to protect something. Amuro, Garrod, Banagher, Mikazuki, hell, even Kira first piloted the Strike because he was one of the only two people on the ship capable of piloting a MS.
But of course, it doesn’t have to be like that for the beginning of every gundam pilot. Kamille, the guy Shinn was based off of, stole the MK2 gundam because he got pissed off by the military. But even then, he decided to stay as a gundam pilot exactly for the reason to prevent more suffering from happening.
Shinn joined the military because he lost his family to war, but we rarely see a clear image of what he wants to protect. Well, atleast we actually see something. After Stella died, it’s just pure revenge seeking angst. Spiced with an extra dose of hypocrisy. Oh, how dare you drug children that has done nothing to deserve this and turn them into brainwashed super soldiers. Now I shall proceed to kill said brainwashed children because they weren’t the girl. Now don’t get me started with Archangel.
God, that was a long rant.
Stella never should've died, and Shinn should have been in the central protagonist role. The Minerva defects towards the end (temporarily?), Shinn takes control of Destiny (thematically and literally I guess) and confronts the Chairman about his destiny plan and so on.
@@JD260A9 he not one man army
@@JD260A9 shinn should've been the protagonist
It stuck to me Shinn's empathy with Athrun in the beginning, seeing through him in a way even Cagalli couldn't. He said Cagalli didn't understand anything and that he felt sorry for Athrun for it as he was still weighed down by his past as a Zala. It was surprising that Shinn later questioned Athrun's skills as a FAITH member and forgot the very thing he felt sorry for that could have factored down to his weakness.
To be honest I hated the Shinn character to me he was just a hot head brat. And I always wondered why they wrote that character the way they did. I think it was a lossed opportunity to come up with a better character. I never liked him yet he's supposed to be give some sympathy because his family gets killed in the last war.
I thought that it was just bad writing to cover for him. For example if they wanted a more sympathetic character they didn't have to give him an attitude even Yzak was a hot head, but a likeable hot head in Gundam Seed even showed more personality and character development. Shinn was just a hot headed brat that never got put totally in his place.
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMasterbecause that is what called character development. Shin is supposed to grow up as the main character in the 2nd path but due to the garbage drama between the director and his wife (writer), whoever got caught in between gets the shitty treatment. Shin va called out the drama, so shin go to shit. Whoever takes side got the king seats. And kira the jesus came back as the plot already went to shit
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMasterread up on the drama, shin is probably one of the best gundam pilot with a real character development if not becaused of those 2 meatbags
@@Thex-W.I.T.C.H.-xMaster good news is, Shinn in SRW (Z especially) and most of Gundam Games that has Gundam SEED Destiny story on it write his story in entirely different way and much better than his story in the TV-anime, he got a character development that we wanted to see and we see him basically become what we wanted him to be, a Kamille Bidan 2.0 (minus the authism). not only that, but we also seen a better Athrun and Kira which is again, fulfill their role as a good copy of Quatro Bajeena (Char in Z) and Amuro (again from Z timeline). they can easily did what Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam did and did it better.
I saw that you were one of the script readers for the latest Mangs character spotlight. That was pretty cool.
I can say that the direction you point for the series in the video its really really good i enjoyed a lot. I personally like Shinn and its a real shame what they left for his character in the remaining plot of GSD but SRW Z give me hope that he could recieve better treatment in the future.
You know what piss off people the most
In the gundamwiki shinn is label as a
" *PROTAGONIST WHO LOST IN HIS SERIES* "
Also almost the creator of the meme title "Fake Protagonist" over on KR and JP (those rare people who do hate SEED Destiny that is).
Why the fuck would you think shinn is the main protagonist. Seriously why the fuck. Shinn was a destructive emo who keeps on screaming bullying Cagalli. He was Mad of orb because it could not protect his family. Which it was no ones fault but he wanted orb to be destroyed. Like WTF
@@dta366 I don't think you really understand what a protagonist is. Shinn is angry and young, what made him a protagonist is that the plot revolves around him and his eventual growth to maturity. He's not all that different from Kamille Bidan, who joined terrorists because someone made fun of his name. Unfortunately the writers screwed that up and made Kira the protagonist again while Shinn became a villain.
@@dta366 EXACTLY. Shinn's feelings trump any logic that he has. As far as the 'protagonist' thing goes, he doesn't even have the most screentime in the first 10 episodes. Athrun is far more prevalent than Shinn.
@@nedinnis6752 The protagonist IS the focus of a work--and that protagonist can be good or evil. It doesn't matter. However, Shinn isn't the most featured character, even at the beginning of the series. If Kira had never resurfaced (and he was shown many times at the beginning, implying his return), Athrun was much more the focus of Destiny than Shinn. The war was contextualized through Shinn, and his struggle regarding ORB played into the main plot--but make no mistake, Athrun was the true center of the first several episodes and Kira was always destined to be the protagonist again.
A might makes right character becomes human when he doubts his own actions. That's what Shinn needed the most.
THANK YOU! Holy MOLY someone FINALLY gets Shinn more than I thought.
He is a teen that despises his own weaknesses.
"I am no longer the helpless child I used to be!" "I have the power to change fate itself!" Stems from Shinn's ability to do nothing to save his family's life that faithful day.
Shin had no prblem burning down orb.He has anmger management issues to.
I'll just pretend your version is the real one and go on with my life. Thank you for it. I'm Shinn fan and I share your opinion on GSD
except its not really because it was never officially done. One CAN find solace in the SRW (especially Zs) take of CE 73 and Minvera Crew... even if its more black and white when gundam never is
Me tooo
So no one will talk about on how Rey completely manipulate Shinn in the entire series, he always tell that Shinn's doing is absolute and just. And how all the characters faction try to stand above other factions? And everyone is trying to kill each other before they could talk so they can resolve the problem? Well the whole series is so problematic, so there's no point in arguing why the series lost it's potential 🤷♂️
Peace can never be achieved through force?
Brave words coming from someone within colony dropping distance
Damn you’re version really made me see Shin in a different light and how his potential was wasted
Time to summon fanfic writers
Or seeing what other authors can do, AKA Astray, Stargazer and SRW.
We must begin the rituals!
Orb situation was going to go that way regardless of Cagalli getting kidnapped or not.
Also during the second time the Arcangel showed up to stop the Orb fleet guess who started the whole conflict, Shinn by getting angry like he always does and firing at the Strike Rouge aka Cagalli the one person trying to stop Orb from attacking the Minerva.
I can understand calling Kira self-righteous for believe that his way is right, but has anyone noticed how Shinn himself pretty much gets away with insulting Cagalli right in front of Durandal and not get reprimanded, or how he disobey orders almost everytime with no consequences and instead gets rewarded with a shit ton of validation from everyone in the Minerva.
Say what you want about Kira but Shinn was a character built to fail from day one cause he's been surrounded by people that validated every single one of his actions and never called him out on it.
If you're telling me that Shinn had potential to become a great character by killing Kira, Athrun, and Meyrin and then understanding the error of his ways, but don't forget that he never got called out for disobeying orders and giving Stella back to the enemy which led to the whole Destroy Gundam scenario and Shinn blaming Kira yet again.
Kira may be a self-righteous dumbass but at least his actions never created a scenario like the Destroy Gundam that killed far more for no reason.
Also Shinn never felt anything but hatred towards Orb and you can see it by how he when about destroying the ships.
just Binged gundam seed and gundam seed destiny and I see where people are coming from in regards to kira and the archangel but I feel a bit different. In destiny cagalli was acting hella submissive ish, she could have strongly aired her views but I guess they were going for the route of trying to make her get swept up in politics which she was getting manipulated into by her fiance and his dad. Kira knew cagalli wasn't ready to make the hard decision for her nation to stand on its own as seen with how she was about to go through with a marriage that could potentially kill the amount of power she holds, which is why kira abducted her.
Now with the kira crew, their ideology hasn't stopped and I understand their opposition to durandal as they knew something was wrong from the moment lacus was about to be assassinated despite their being an already fake lacus. They knew neither side was completely telling the truth. Now lacus remarks that they have a contradiction of fighting peace with force to which they accept that consequence of possible bloodshed and kira tries his best to not kill pilots which is what he has always tried to do but the strike not having the weaponry the Freedom has. So when Kira and co arrive, they're arent fighting to kill but to disarm (at least kira does as the archangel acts in self defence). Even with that, kira isn't above self reflection as he also doubts if he is right. I believe this show is quite self aware despite its flaws
My bois! What have you done BOOFIRE!? Beautiful Destiny and Strike Freedom!
So did the last 11 episodes make you angry?
I think the most frustrating thing about Destiny as a whole, to which is why even to this day it still gets talked about more than even more recent Gundam shows. Is the fact that the amount of holes and poor handling of ideas that it plants the seed(pun slightly intended) to anyone competent could look at and then improve it greatly. So much so that I bet if you took a dartboard, then put a bunch of characters, concepts and ideas from Destiny itself then tossed a dart to fix that one thing, someone would not be strayed for good ideas. Even your own fanfiction is leagues better than what Destiny started. Destiny itself has so much for a writer to play with and every idea chosen was dropped, poorly handled or a bad idea that remained a bad idea.
For example I'm surprised you didn't talk much about Mu AKA Neo in this video, who's death was needlessly retconned to be brought back to Destiny to be a terrible Char clone, a complete asshole than everything he did up to that point forgotten about when he takes off the mask, all to a character that amounted to absolutely nothing from start to finish. Now then reason I picked him is that even a bad idea like this could have been salvaged as soon as you start thinking about him that instead everything Kira did post Impulse/Freedom fight, Mu took the place instead, even piloting the Strike Freedom. When you think that on it's own even with Destiny's other flaws his character goes from being insultingly pointless to having a justification for a solid character arc. This would have to acknowledge the shitty things he did as Neo and feel guilt as his memories return that his actions got Kira killed (Or unable to fight anymore, Kira doesn't even need to be killed, but he NEEDS to be out of commission for the rest of the show in his current context.) because he was the one who broke his promise to Shinn to take Stella away from the war, by putting her in the Destory which led to Kira's current condition. Have his Neo history told to the Archangel crew from someone or Mu himself to cause resentment and distrust while Ramius as the captain willing to give a chance to her former lover while on top of the fact they don't have any other pilot to rely on since Kira can't fight anymore. To then furthermore would lead to him getting the Strike Freedom to another point you can build upon the guilt he feels that the man responsible for putting Kira in his current condition is now being given the suit that was made for him. Mu can even treat it as self atonement for his past sins and if Kira is still alive you can even have him take it to safeguard until the day Kira is able to fight again. Hell even the suit itself looks like something he'd pilot more then the Akatsuki even to the not funnels, the Dragoons. Continuing on, Mu and Shinn would have a genuine relationship dynamic we've seen first hand since the two actually met face to face unlike Shinn and Kira from being tied to Stella. One rightfully feels guilt for what he done, while the other rightfully wants his revenge for that broken promise. This relationship can greatly improve too depending on how other factors of Destiny is changed where say if Athrun really does die, Shinn defects, Mu could actually be closer to that Quattro inspiration a little more. Hell you can even start that before Shinn defects where he doubts his own feelings of revenge for Mu because of everything that happened to Athrun up to that point. Even the final fight between the Freedom and the Legend would have more weight cause Mu had a lot more of a connection to Rau than Kira did and would ESPECIALLY feel a lot more about Rey than Kira did. There's more stuff you can work with too, but the point I think is made.
And all of that is just ONE character to which was a bad idea to begin with and you can get so much more mileage out of it without even going into if you rewrote everything. I could even go on with a wasted potential of a relationship between Shinn and Cagalli which could shine some light on some really stupid things about Orb in general with Shinn being the perfect character to expose Orb's hypocrisy. EVEN LACUS AND KIRA you can make work without killing them off if you want extra hard mode fanfiction. You mention how Flay and Kira's relationship went no where, honestly what I would explore is if Kira's and Lacus's relationship is all that different except Lacus isn't a straight conniving bitch about everything. In an essence Lacus may be kind hearted, is Kira really acting as his own man or is does it so happen that Lacus's manipulation, unintentional or not, just so happen to align with Kira's true nature so he never noticed. If you took Lacus gradually into a villain role this would be very interesting and really there's not a jack of a lot you can do with Kira otherwise. So on and so on you can continue to explore a bunch of characters and ideas and make these pieces actually fit instead of trying to put them together into a toilet to flush and hope something gets put together.
However the final point of all is this, no matter what idea you want to change, improve upon, throw out whatever. The fact of the matter is this. This story was set up and was about entirely Shinn's story and growth as a character. Betraying that story half way through to focus on a character that already had their story told then adding nothing to it. All the while tossing Shinn aside and assassinating his character and almost even a career with Kenichi Suzumura. Then forcing Shinn's resolution upon him at the story's end without it earned, is Destiny's biggest sin. No matter what, Shinn's story must be the main focus in any attempt to fix Destiny. Good video, Destiny makes me mad that most bad media doesn't. Massively wasted potential is far worse than simple garbage.
whew... wall of text... but to address your very first point.
they get talked about... because SEED honestly ended quite well and DESTINY was on fire when it started. It had massive potential to tell a great story with realistic characters, in the mainstream, AND it was all fuckin pretty to boot.
and the internal sunrise staff fucking massively self destructed and we talk about its end product.
@@Matanumi Now we move on to that dumpster fire that was IBO season 2.
@@ericcaulfield4477 If IBO S2 is dumpster fire, then GSD would be equal to Reactor no.4 fire
@@lyq232 Don't get me wrong, GSD isn't good really to me, it's pretty meh but IBO S2 pisses me off worse. The writers to IBO S2 seemed to think it was also clever unlike the GSD writers who never had such lofty aspirations.
@@ericcaulfield4477 explain to me? I try to search for it but i got nothing
I'm glad to hear that you are going to do some more of these. It is fun to hear peoples option on the actual series instead of just the model kits on youtube
I'm gonna talk as someone who likes SEED Destiny, but not to the blinding extent that I can't see the flaws in it.
In all honesty I feel sorry for the character of Kira. His arc, in my eyes at least, was finished in the original SEED and he should of most definitely been kept in the background, a support character to Shinn (who I feel even more sorry for... the story butchered that poor kid) and Athrun. The problem is that the writers wanted SOOOOOOOO badly for Kira to be the main character again that they destroyed the potential for his character and the potential for their show in the process. Kira should of been the reluctant war vet, called in when there was no other choice and the heroes' backs were against the wall. Not as a savior, but as needed back up and a chance to regroup. Shinn should stayed the focus of the story. I do believe that Kira was supposed to stayed away from Shinn and Stella, but the writers couldn't help shoving in the frame for some more conflict.
Maybe I'm moreso a fan of the potential of SEED Destiny than the series itself, but I do still like it. It's not my favorite series, but as was said, it could of been great with a few simple tweaks, which makes what the powers behind that series did even more tragic. By wanking their favorite characters, they killed their own series.
I understand shinns anger
I think it is often overlooked but one of the reasons Seed Destiny fell a part was because the writer for the show, Chiaki Morosawa was in and out of Hospital during much of the production of Seed Destiny. At times she was barely able to do any work what so ever.
Not having a team write for the show hurt the most.
She didn't do well in Seed either and admitted she hated the characters. She shouldn't have been involved at all.
@@DrForrester87 Seed was popular and successful though. Irregardless of the quality of writing. She was involved in Destiny primarily because Destiny was made to capitalize on the popularity of Seed. Seed is the only Alternate Century Gundam to get a direct Sequel for a reason.
@@Alte.Kameraden I understand that. But popularity doesn't equal quality. I mean these shows had some of the worst stories, characters, character designs, mecha designs, ship designs, animation, and pacing in the entire franchise. In fact, the only way this could even hope to eek out G Reco is the fact that while I didn't like it, I understood what Seed and Destiny were about. As for its popularity, I will never understand Japan's fascination with these two shows because they are literally the antithesis of what makes a good Gundam series.
@@DrForrester87 there is a reason I rate them lower than Gundam Wing.
The ONA/OVA Gundam Seed C.E. 73 Stargazer is worth watching. It has potential but it's pretty short though. It doesn't have Kira and friends. It also give more perspectives on the whole colony drop like event and even though short, gives a story from two perspectives essentially.
God, hearing Kira's voice in the English dub makes me violently cringe. I'd rather be in Sydney during Operation British.
The voice actor also voiced ed from ed edd n eddy. He should have used his ed voice instead, would've been a better fit considering how stupid Kira is.
@@tomtheconqerur Is it Max Mittelman or Matt Hill? Hill voiced Ed. Mittelman voiced Kira in the remaster.
@@Samm815 matt hill
nah fuck that-
hot take: Matt Hill is far more fitting then Sōichirō Hoshi. Matt could hit the heavy emotions quite well without sounding too much like a little bitch. yea SEED started choppy in the dub but got better as the series went on
Part of the reason some people (myself included) love this show isnt because of some blind devotion or anything like that. We know completely how bad and handsdown annoying this series is. We even make fun of it. But thats not the point. We love it because for the admittedly awesome mobile suit designs it has and for the interesting concept. I personally think that if you can forget the bad writing and terrible character development (in cagallis case horrendus development), only then can you enjoy this. Despite how bad it is, you do have to admit that it does have its charming moments. Even if kira yamato is the good guy equivalent of william afton.
Dude, why are you not a Gundam Script/Storywriter. I would pay good money whit how good your what if of what Destiny could'ved done. Seriously though, you just nailed why I hated Destiny. The first half was good but after Shinn and Kira's fight alonside Shinn vs Athrun and Meyrin with Kira, Athrun and Meyrin aurviving I started to hate it. Personally, I am okay with first half Shinn, it was Final half Shinn that I hated.
Anyways, great job Boo! Please do Gundam X first. I loved 00 but X was part of my childhood and I want to see it in your perspective.
Lastly, now I wish you do fanfic. I wanna know how you'll do with your what if which already shapes up to how I wanted Destiny to be. The concequences, everything. I am excited for your next Gundam vid.
What I hated most about Destiny was how hard it dropped the ball. Least with Kamille I could see how he was a shit, why he was a shit, how shitty his treatment was, and how he eventually grew and realized the power of understanding. Shinn, they just dumped him in favor of a character that's recognizable...it's like how Gohan got cheated out of being the MC in Z because the (Japanese) fans wanted more Goku in charge...
I recall desiny had last minute rewrites and changes in plot points. You can see that in the intros and endings where characters that are dead in the show but alive in the opening or endings.
being a fan of kira from seed and not particularly caring about shinn to begin with i didn't mind that last half of destiny.
If not goes tomino ways, SRW Z (the first one, PS2) already gives us great aternative stories.
Other than athrun, Camille comes up to follow up shinn to grow up.
Also SRWZ was the first time the original voice cast : Kenichi Suzumura finally deeply understands shinn personality and characters(he's FF7 Zack's VA too btw).
He really dislike for why shinn become that kind of edgelord. Also we can tell he really frustrated when the destiny ends, some fanatic fans accuse him for why destiny fails.
If not because of that show he got to become intimate with Maaya Sakamoto, who eventually become his wife, may be he's ended his life as VA that time.
And we wont have our beloved prince of planet sadist, okita kun a.k.a "chihuahua"
I remember watching this show thinking "oh this seems cool" then halfway shit was just happening and I was so confused, this explains why and what's dope is that this vid also provides some alternatives
You kind of put voice here to a lot of core problems I had with SEED Destiny but hadn't quite developed as thoroughly as you had.
You're absolutely right in that the real tragedy of the series isn't that it's bad, but that it had all the ingredients to be great, and then almost systematically squandered every single one of them in the name of a wish-fulfillment fantasy.
Destiny was a mistake on the grounds that it took things introduced in SEED and trivialized them. Berserker state got trivialized, by the end of the show instead of being the state of extreme stress causing the fights reaching a higher state of thought, everyone and their mother had it, Providence's multi target turret tech got trivialized with everything and everyone getting it, Gundam fights went from amazing space slogs to just becoming who has the bigger stick in the fight, Shinn was supposed to be the protag and turned into an immature raving lunatic by the end instead of getting development. The main villain went from a cunning charismatic mystery to discount Azrael, Mu Le Flaga got brought back just so he could be a bargain bin Le Creuset. They introduced the show's only unique Gundam in Akatsuki and barely did anything with it other than referencing Le Flaga's sacrifice and doing a "NOPE! hah!".
How can you call Shinn a great character--but fail to see he's simply the most inconsistent character of the entire series. Even in the first dozen episodes, his stance changes multiple times. The biggest example is that he hates Cagalli because her father refused to bend the knee to the Earth Forces--causing the death of his parents. Then he's angry that when met with pretty much the same situation (when Cagalli is being pressured during Seed Destiny), the ORB council makes the decision to ally with the Earth Forces. He literally has two different stances on the SAME EXACT ISSUE within a couple of episodes. He's an indecisive, petulant child--which he accuses everyone else of being. When he says, "You don't understand anything!" he's literally speaking to veteran mobile suit pilots who know all of the politics going on behind the scenes.
Shinn hates Cagalli for decisions her father made. He hates ORB for--being attacked because they refused to immediately surrender. He hates Cagalli and the ORB council for allying with the Earth Forces to prevent the exact sort of conflict that killed his family. Destiny isn't a train wreck because of Kira or Lacus. The character of Shinn is detestable and childish--yet he's a crack mobile suit pilot (randomly--he's just sort of 'with Zaft' after becoming orphaned) who is incredibly opinionated. Hate on Kira and Lacus all you want, at least they're consistent. Athrun forgets all of the things he learned during SEED and allows himself to be manipulated by Durandel (quite easily), while Shinn doesn't know what the hell position to take aside from, "I'm always right no matter what I say!"
Athrun gets distracted by sexy fake Lacus/Meer with the big breasts and Durandal's charismatic speeches. Also I think he's still guilty about betraying his dad from the last show a little even after he tried to kill him. Also I never understood why Athrun didn't figure out Rey being Rau's clone because the voice and the similarities would of given him some alarm bells, after all he served with Rau previously.
I know this is very late but from what I understand of the development of Gundam seed Destiny, the Japanese fan base hated shinn way before episode 27. Due to losing popularity they brought back Kira and the old cast. I personally like the Seed timeline it’s fun to watch.
1) The writer was having brain cancer and thought her husband was cheating on her with Cagalli's VA, Shinn's VA defended Cagalli's VA so his character got affected too.
2) They could've deleted Lunamaria from the cast and nothing in the plot would change, other than that there wouldn't be a shallow, forced ship at the end... Shinn would've really benefitted from Stella NOT dying and reminding him that he had once again failed to protect those (especially the girls) in he cares about in his life.
Interesting.
So, the archangel has to risk life and limb to get to Orb where the blue cosmos senators are waiting for an excuse to bring back Cagalli to the negotiating table? The freedom might be op but it can definitely be overwhelmed by Orb’s army. Even if we consider sneaking in, im guessing the budget wasnt there and like Kira says, it wouldve put Cagalli into the same mindset of acquiescence she was already in. Hell, even Kira and Lacus mightve fallen for it too. They needed to regroup and make sure the actions they took would not result in the same scenario as episode one. Even with overwhelming power it does, but now Kira, who was always the main protagonist of destiny, decides to take on a more active role in preserving peace through negotiation first, then combat if necessary. The movie simply re-emphasizes how Kira should never shoulder all the responsibility.
Your alternative story is perfect, especially since the original name of the Infinite Justice was the "Knight Justice". Yeah, would've fit perfectly in the sense of chivalry and protecting the weak and all....
That aside, I'll be waiting for the day you do a G Gundam video, the Gundam that Tomino actually loved.
Funnily enough, there's a Justice Knight Gundam in Gundam Build Divers Re-rise.
Funny thing is, I remember that back then when Seed Destiny, that there where rumors about what happened with the story. Rumors about a far more grim story that what we seen.
The only thing we get to know for real was that apparently one of the higher ups (director or writer, I don't remember clearly) get in a dispute with Kagali's VA, thus she kind of disappearing from the show.
What I wanna get to is that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the theory exposed here was part of what was originally planned to happen. It does fit into something Japanese people hate the most on their media: change. Such a drastic change as having one or more main characters from the previous series would have not been well received by Japanese audiences, and the powers may be from back then, fearing the hypothetical backlash, decided to back things down before any damage was done, but in the process rehashing last season's story to keep the schedule.
Again, this falls into speculation but if things went as they where originally planned, who knows, maybe Shin would be a more renowned character now a days.
I know of all of Gundam SEED's missed potential. That's why I appreciate those that learned from its mistakes. Also Gundam AGE> SEED and Destiny.
YES!! AND I LOVE THE ASUNO FAMILY! (FLIT, ASEMU AND YES.... SON/GRANSON KIO
@@seabookfarno8656 did you notice the Zone Of the Enders and Martian Successor Nadesico plot nods in AGE. Also RIP Studio Xebec thankfully Sunrise saved the team.
I'm gonna say this. Both shows are ultimately bad seed and seed destiny has all it's flaws and Kira (Kira at this point is an abnormality) and age has its God awful pacing they should've extended it to three seasons to which imo would've made the show much better I really liked the characters in age especially asuno
But I like seed destiny's Gundam designs and seed destiny is what got me into Gundam and anime as a whole
But I can't say which one is better
I don't know I have mixed feelings on both series
@@barrybend7189 I DID LOL! Good on the artists in that series. Even tho some ppl didnt like how near the end of the 40s something episodes that they felt it was "rushed" I still love Age, just as much as I love 00 (1st ever gundam HD show to pull off a UC MS tribute too). My kid bro likes Age's designs so far as well ^_^
@@seabookfarno8656 studio Xebec( now Sunrise Beyond) is now doing Gundam Build Divers Re Rise. Its funny as I was wondering why the color choices were darker and the animation sharper than last season.
They are in war and they are warriors then you expect them to talk to each other like politicians.
What makes seed destiny great is that it doesn't fall back to traditional gundam themes of fighting war with the power of positivity or some shit, it's about economics being substituted as a new religion
"It can't be helped" is the defining theme of the show, with cagalli having to cede political power to the nationalist faction so they can give orb tech to the earth alliance that explicitly wants to genocide coordinators because of a plot by durandal to drop a colony on earth, resulting in a self-propagating war economy similar to the one created by bush and cheney in response to 9/11, and this plays out in a predictable pattern, like a seed in javascript
The thematic reason for seed mode is when characters fall in to roles you would expect them to, like hero who brings order and beats up the bad guys, but people don't easily fall in to specialized roles, because they aspire to create their own identities in a world that feels like it is accelerating because of the amount of problems that can't be helped
All individuals want is a sense of freedom, to accelerate at their own will in an accelerating universe, and cultivating this sense of freedom is emboldened by market forces that lead people down individual hero's journeys that are ultimately meaningless, hence why shinn wields a double-edged sword called excalibur and fights gundams named after beings from hesiod's theogony
I think the message of the story isn't that war is mean, but rather that we will never feel like our lives were worth anything so long as we adhere to the path determined by market forces, which explain's meer's arc
TL:DR I think the story has a lot more heart and meaning than westerners give it credit for, and just going by a literal interpretation of the story points to shinn as the self insert character, because he repeatedly gets cucked by the two party system (freedom and justice, blue and red) but luna loves him anyway, similar to fukuda and his wife
Also, posting some lore that can't be sourced about fukuda and his wife is counterproductive, and doesn't reinforce humanity's understanding of anything
yeah yeah yeah defender of destiny whatever ............so we are just going to ignore this damn nightmare 2:10 !!!
This could've been a great fanfic, now I wanna write one with this video in mind.
Like your thoughts for your version of SEED Destiny. It was kinda frustrating watching Shin being pigeon holed into a final antagonist against Athrun despite all the small doubts he showed across the back half of GSD. I just kept hoping for the guy to finally hit the breaking point and realize Durandal wasn't who he should be fighting for.
Even something as simple as having Shin thrash Lunamaria's Impulse in the final battle and face turn after realizing what he's doing would have been a better character arc for the guy. Instead we get a shot of him laying useless on the moon as Kira and Athrun solve everything. There wasn't really any weight to anything outside him and Athrun's battle either, Rey Za Barrel wasn't a bad character but he's hardly as strong a villain narratively as Rau Le Cruset was. Mu and Athrun smashing Requiem and Kira destroying the Messiah happen way too easy to be satisfying, and Durandal's death at Rey's hand didn't exactly make much sense to me.
SEED's ending sticks with me a bit, because every side of the conflict was fighting with such desperation, every part of it contributed to a growing sense of despair as near senseless conflict sought to consume everyone, the outcome Rau Le Cruset saw as the inevitability of mankind. While Destiny's ending is kinda of just a flat review of SEED's ending while lacking the narrative weight that made SEED's work in my opinion.
Kira isnt a hero in this series. He's the villain, wearing the cloak of justice. He should have died or suffered in this series at least a bit.
As bad as 2020
Shinn should have rammed a saber through Kira's cockpit as soon as he moved towards Stella.
@@tjl4688 agreed
@Weston Meyer flay is far worse. Shin n wore his emotions on his sleeve
kira was devil with angel clothing
Thank you so much man. I loved Destiny 1st half but was always frustrated with the 2nd. Now I can imagine a better outcome for the zaft team thanks for your hard work.
I've never heard kira Yamato referred to as an arrogant twink before, which is odd because that's extremely accurate
Durandall was 50% right about everything.
if they follow you.... there will be no story to watch.
Not gonna Lie Boofire, I was with 100% until you gave Lunamaria the Strike Freedom. Lol but in reality I liked your reimagining of the ending. Much more in line with Gundam
Thank you. I've been saying this for years. SEED Destiny had a lot of potential. And a great theme of 'Good Intentions can go horribly awry'. ...buuuut then the show happened.
it is also an objective fact that Kagali was trying and failing; and the final proof of that is the fact that the marriage would be the move in which Unato and the other Emirs would take power through her. And again, there ware scenes in which Kira was showing hesitations about his actions.
As per force used by Archangel against Minerva: Minerva is a subordinate under the command of the administration that tried to kill you, do you honestly think in a battlefield situation they can take the time to sit down and talk. As per the Stella incident, there are IFF and communication frequencies used by allied forces, I sincerely doubt enemies would be actively talking during a fight (except for Kira and Athrun, it makes sense they would talk during the fight as they know each other).
Also, Shin is a parallel of Athrun, he saught power as he watched those he loved dies. the thing that differentiate them is the turn they take. Shin is the worst case scenario which is swallowed up by power; whereas athrun remained struggling and woke up to the manipulation of the chairman later on.
but i do agree in most of your points on shin actually killing Kira. but for that to be the turning point for shin to be a hero, yeah. thats a stretch. Shin never let go of his past. he kept his sister's phone remember?
as for using force to stop the conflict: in SEED OG, Lacus even said during the first launch of the METEOR system that they were probably being evil and hypocritical for they call for peace but with guns in their hands. They never claimed they are in the absolute right, but are rather people fighting for what they believe in, they just happened to be right in the end.
No disrespect intended. One point is accurate: some will hate it, some will love it. I will say that in latin: DE GUSTIBUS NON EST DISPUTANDUM. (yes, latin is almost invariably written in capital letters). Seems to me its a pure exercise of mental masturbation, and taken to very serious levels. In other words, a -what if- scenario. Wishful thinking. It went how it went. Nothing will change. Could have it been better? Certainly. But consider it could have been much worse. And I am quite happy to have been able to be entertained (ok, mostly entertained) for the lenght of the whole run). Yes. IT´S A GUNDAM! Seriously... No show is perfect ;)
Watched it when it first came out, kinda surprised it's taken this long for reviews criticizing it to reach me, it was only recently I learned about the studio drama which actually got me feeling bad for Shinn finally. I always hated Shinn tunnel visioning Kira for Stellar and not even thinking about Neo instantly breaking his promise, iirc he didn't really think of her again until Arthurun yeeted him into the moon. My only disagreements are very minor, 8:28 Kiras sword is at his side, not the ready, he very much seemed like he was descending to land and observe what was going on, he can't have known Stellar was some drug lab baby that would get triggered at seeing him. You do raise a good point though in that they NEVER get on the fucking radio with each other at any point which would have helped so much.
Conflicted on Kira dying to Shinn, while I agree that would've been a good plot point for building Shinn I feel like the whole "you're the ultimate Coordinator Harry!" from the first show would've been completely pointless.. though now that I'm trying to think about it... did it ever have a point? I don't recall him seeing to have any abilities or what have you that others didn't, SEED mode certainly wasn't unique to him. My biggest problem with that Freedom vs Impulse scene was always that it didn't feel like a show of skill as I've seen most people say but a plot device to force Kira to need a new suit, a point imo reinforced by how, when he gets his new suit you've got friggin Bartfeldt holding his own in a desert model mobile suit in space while Kira gets there in a suit he's mastered and is getting it melted damn near instantly, basically he's rushed along into his new suit asap by the plot. That said you're lines about kira dying, then Arthrun later dying to Shinn and Shinn growing from that are far better than what I can remember the show ending with... anyway, this was a good video.
I don't think killing kira and athrun would have been good but making sure they stuck as mentor for shinn would have been better, in short making them like amuro and char in zeta for camille.
A fight between shinn with the destiny against rey's legend would have been better than the no match we got at the end because seriously the infinite justice and the strike freedom were really OP.
So basically, rather than asking the writers to NOT butcher the original characters, you want a repeat of Iron Blooded Orphans with Neo-Camille standing as the new main character.
About the explosion at the end if the Freedom vs Impulse fight, that was from the Minerva's positron cannon, which was aimed at the Archangel, and i don't recall the Freedom being that close to said positron cannon shot.
Positrons are antimatter, only 2 grams of which can destroy any city on the planet.
This made me realize that Char’s plan in CCA was to achieve understanding through force.