Did the Buddha Quit?
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Did you know the Buddha may have quit the sangha? I'll look at one early sutta and discuss what happened, and why it seems as though the Buddha was on the verge of permanent retirement. I'll also consider a couple of other interesting aspects of this sutta's narrative.
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✅ Videos mentioned:
Was the Buddha Omniscient? -- • Was the Buddha Omnisci...
Deep Meditation in Buddhism Playlist (includes discussion of jhāna) - • Deep Meditation in Bud...
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/mn67/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/ud3.3/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/sn6.1/en/sujato
✅ Essay by Bodhipaksa mentioned:
www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-pra...
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00:00 Intro
00:48 Passage from an early sutta
02:01 Aftermath of the monks’ dismissal
03:25 The Buddha’s apparent lack of omniscience
04:40 The Buddha’s questions to Sāriputta and Moggallāna
06:28 Moggallāna’s surprising suggestion
06:57 Did the Buddha intend to leave for good?
08:56 The role of Brahmā Sahampati
10:35 The Buddha’s surprising response to Moggallāna
12:07 The Buddha’s “kryptonite”
Thumbnail photo courtesy of Boudewijn Huysmans on Unsplash.
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That's quite interesting. And I really wonder why a supposedly enlightened one has an aversion to noise and clings to silence/calm.
There's a very helpful statement by Ajahn Chah in this regard: "If my mind doesn’t go out to disturb the noise, the noise won’t disturb me."
😊🙏
Yes exactly, I'll be mentioning that in a video soon! 😉
Namo Buddhaya 🙏😊that is because Lord Buddha preferred calmness , discipline around him .And specifically many monks who followed him was not Arahat at that time. So considering that ,it(noise) will be really disturb them .😊ofc Buddha didn't get bothered by noise. Like he became Enlightened when mara and his daughters tried to stop that with their tricks. But that didn't even matter a bit for Lord Buddha's disciplined mind. Lord Buddha always prefers peace (As I have heard previous Buddhas also preferred to live in a calm environment, even though they can live in any situation. ) Ex: Lord Buddha had to live 3 months in a rural situation even without proper food. But Lord lived calmly and even was thankful to the person who invited him .
Good point!
@@babyme8886 you are right babyme, thank you for mentioning that.
@xiao,enlightenment is not brain on lsd...it's just a understanding of the nature around you and still living it. Anything in excess can disturb your wellbeing. I understand it that way. Peace be upon all.🙏🙏🙏
I don't know why someone would interpret it as the Buddha having aversion and clinging. He repeatedly said that if one cannot find wise companion than it is best to wander alone, and he was doing exactly that.
True, interestingly some traditional Buddhists view the poem where that idea comes from (on the Rhinoceros Horn) as coming from a paccekabuddha rather than from Sakyamuni himself.
Thank you Doug! There’s a lot to consider here. My idea on the subject of the Buddha [maybe] leaving the Sangha is that it is a form of teaching in itself. I believe the Buddhas intentions here is to install a sense of seriousness in the students. A Sangha is not just any form of social gathering coming together to have a pleasant time together. A teacher-student relationship is a two-way communication or relationship. For us students of the Buddha Dharma it is of great importance to understand our own inherent qualities. We must understand that we do have the exact same potential qualities as a Buddha. In other words, if we want to proceed on the path towards enlightenment we must start taking ourselves and the practice seriously. Making noise and idle chatter is a clear indication that our mindfulness and awareness is still lacking and that our practice is still a practice of a pretender, at best.
On the greater issue why the Buddha did not begin to teach until he had been invited to teach in this world is a very typical aspect of the Buddhas way of teaching in general. In fact, up until today buddhist teachers are not known to teach randomly to anybody, like a missionary. On the contrary, a teacher of the buddha Dharma stay silent until he/she is invited to teach. That has always been the tradition. I believe the reason for this is the need for the [potential] student to be eager and ready to actually listen and absorb the teachings. I can only speculate but I can think of one special reason why the very first invitation was done by the higher gods instead of some random human being was the fact that these gods (through their special powers) knew that a Buddha had just arisen in the world of ours. Something that humans had no way of knowing at that time. In order for the world to become aware of the wisdom of the Buddha an invitation was needed for him to start teaching. There must be a mutual pure interest and intention for a transmission of wisdom to take place. This is also one of the most important reasons why an unbroken lineage must be maintained. For every new generation of potential practitioners of the pure Buddha Dharma there needs to be an overlap of transmission from teacher to worthy students that are capable of absorbing and actualizing the teachings to its fullest capacity. This can only happen if also the student take his/her potential Buddhahood and the path seriously. For the serious student it is actually a matter of gaining dignity and responsibility.
Interesting thoughts, thanks FT! 🙏
Something that stuck with me from yoga teacher training I went through in 2018 came from one of my teachers. He said you can find good teachers all over, but it's good students that are rare. People that are sincere in their desire to learn.
True philosophers, I think are willing to understand truth even if it's unpleasant or dissatisfying. It's a serious endeavor and quite a romantic way to be.
I think that a consequence of meditation is a heightened sensitivity to one's environment. Realizing "no self" means that the ego's boundaries are diminished. So I see reacting to noise as a natural consequence of the falling away, the peeling away of the ego based personality that is ironically more in tuned with one's surroundings. However, it is merely a transitional phase on the path toward enlightenment, for the next step on the path precisely lies in the ability to give up the need for peace and quietude, to give up that attachment as well. This is a hard lesson for many individuals on the path to understand. The yogis go to the mountains to meditate in the caves and escape the hyperactivity of society. The monks of Thailand similarly find refuge in the forests. Both are necessary for contemplation, for centering, and to nurture calmness. Peace is calm after all. But the danger is that one can become attached to that overwhelming sense of peace and quietude, to the point that it becomes a requirement for one to function. Herein lies an opportunity in one's evolutionary path to enlightenment. For it is at this point that one realizes (or should) that ultimately this attachment to peace and quietude must also be released in order to truly be free. Easier said than done, that's for sure!
That’s great… But I will call the cops on your barking dog. Let’s keep it civil, and be considerate. But I have had moments where I try to tell myself I’m listening to some beautiful music for my not being bothered by the sound of a barking dog is an exercise on my own personal growth. In the main… If I see some poop in the grass near the sidewalk in front of my house is it just pick it up throw it away. If I have to get pissed off about it then I’m all upset for a while, and that’s not helping at all.
Yes, easier said than done is true, it's a practice. 🙏
You make some good point. If we look in normal society , we see people's inner need for ' outer peace' . Once the age of partying and excitement passes people look for 'quite neighborhoods ' .The rich always had a ' place in the country ' throughout the ages. The same goes for the beautiful Zen monasteries in Japan temples and retraites in the Western world. It's relatively easy to find inner peace among the chirping birds and rustic nature , surrounded by people with similar goals.
The moment one returns to the noise , traffic and pressures of daily life, that's the moment when one's so called ' enlightened ' ego less nes is challenged. The same goes for contact with whatever type of pressure. I've seen a few teachers over the years that seemed ' enlightenment incarnated ' ...until a divorce , bankruptcy ( or whatever crisis/ temptation ) turned them into cursing short tempered people. (I'm simplifying to make a point )
@@spiritualanarchist8162 Thanks for sharing.... I think that ultimately we are humans living in dualistic consciousness. Thus the experience of peace and nurturing it can be validated at every step of our journeys toward enlightenment . . .
Namo Buddhaya 🙏 May my worship be presented to the Supreme Lord Buddha who reached Nibbana and taught us the way of Nibbana 🙏
Jesus! 😂😂😂
Sadhu sadhu sadhu
🙏😊
@@johnnyxmusic you have worked very hard throughout this comment section I think you should rest now 😊thank you so much 😊
@@babyme8886 lol fr
Thank you so much💙
🙏😊
Interesting! I just came back from a retreat where most people were chatting away, while I tried to stay silent. Would have much preferred silence to, as you say, deepen the practice and presence that can be achieved.
Yes, I agree that meditation is much easier without noise, particularly the noise of voices.
I agree, and I prefer silent retreats
Super interesting video Doug! Had some ideas for future videos (unless you already covered it and I missed it). You mentioned in a recent video the that Buddha also taught how one can be reborn with their spouse. It would be really interesting to learn more about that. Also why don't modern day monastics openly talk about their attainments? Of course there are exceptions like Maha Boowa, but I don't think there are any rules against this right? The only rule that I'm aware of is for a monastic to not lie about his/her attainments.
Thanks, Scott! I think there is a Vinaya rule that monastics aren't supposed to discuss attainments with laypeople. I could be wrong about that (I haven't looked into the Vinaya in great detail), but it makes sense to me since it could be a slippery slope to conceit and worldly aims. I could do a video going into that issue of being reborn with one's spouse in a bit more detail, I'll put it on the list! 🙏
Thank you!
My pleasure, Mende. 🙏
I like the part about Mowthelawner..
Great video
Thanks for the visit!
Old Buddha was a Jester. Enjoyed making didactic drama... My Dear Teacher enjoyed that too... I am sure those monks really thought seriously about making noise again... The three possibilities considered here, if I count well, are not the only ones... With this little drama, he also put in the mind of his great disciple the thought of what will we do, when he is no longer physically with us... the need of self reliance can be taught this way too. NAMO TASSO, ARAHATO BHAGAVATO, SAMMASAM BUDHAHASA!
🙏😊
@@DougsDharma Keep the Good Work. Deep Gassho!
i like a Buddha who was occassionally over it. Gives lil old Jikai some comfort. Gassho.
Ha, good point! 😊
Put a Video on Shaolin Kung and Japanese martial monks please🙏🏻
Yes they are an interesting development, though I don't know enough scholarly history around them. Maybe someday!
Have you ever read Early Buddhist Meditation: The Four Jhanas as the Actualization of Insight by Keren Arbel? Arbel makes the argument that the jhanas were not one-pointed adsorptions, but states with full awareness. I would be interested to see a video on that perspective and learn of other scholars who make the same argument. Bhante Vimalaramsi teaches tranquil aware jhanas based off his reading of the pali suttas.
Yes, I've read the book; it's quite problematic in that she leaves out a mass of evidence from the suttas that contradict her claims. That said, there are certainly passages in the suttas that seem to indicate that right concentration can have a meaning outside of absorptive jhāna.
@@DougsDharma Could you provide me with a few suttas that contradict her? From my understanding the buddha was in the fourth jhana when he achieved enlightenment, but he also moved to touch the ground and saw the morning star. He must have been aware and not in a trance for that. Maybe it is my personal preference, but I feel (and argue based on my limited knowledge of buddhist writing) that samatha and vippassana are meant to be practised together. I would like to learn more about it though.
Touching the ground and seeing the morning star are from later material, they do not appear in the early suttas. And touching the ground in particular is not associated in later literature with enlightenment. Rather it is the preliminary to jhāna. (I don't recall her mentioning them, to be fair).
Thank you
🙏😊
Thanks so much for exposing this - is this a lesson to make the monks value his teaching more? Or is it the lesson to us that irritants are irritating to sentient beings, regardless of attainment, brilliance? "A thorn to the first jnana..." - i love that expression.
Noise disturbs practitioners. It is about the importance of silence.
Well, I think we take from it what we will. 🙏
@@smlanka4u Is silence important, and why? I am really disturbed by noise, so I'm trying to work with it as pure energy. It's NOT easy, especially because I'm trained as a musician.
@@paulmeers4974, The mind/Citta is very fast, and it absorbs a lot of things even if we don't listen to them intentionally. The lifetime of a mind/Citta moment is very short, and the smallest material units spend 17 mind moments during its lifetime. Likely, the mind moment is smaller than the the smallest time called the Planck time. The Buddha said that the mind is a magician, and it moves and changes very faster.
Buddha’s motivation would be to give confidence to his followers that even the most enlightened person can act ordinary thereby giving them the hope that everybody has a shot at enlightenment. His compassion and wisdom and ways is beyond the minds of regular person.
My impression from the Mahparinibbana Sutta, is that the Buddha had retired from teaching and Mahakassapa had taken over those responsibilities. The Buddha travels with Ananda and the assembly of monks, led by Mahakassapa, arrive only after the Buddha's death.
True, but the Buddha appears to have been teaching monks during that sutta as well. Likely by that time the sangha was well enough established that there were various monastic centers.
Sometimes you just quit to get some fresh air and come back reenergized! :P
Yes, well the Buddha did take time away from the sangha on personal retreat!
What's the difference between Buddha, and an ordinary person? Buddha knew that there is no difference. Buddha was just a man, and subject to moods. I don't know about others but I find that encouraging. Everyone can have a bad day. Christ lost his temper at least twice. Once with the money lenders at the temple, and once in the garden. Somehow that makes them easier to relate to.
🙏😊
We don't have enough detailed information about the character of the “noise” that was involved. Was it sound that was produced from noticeable deliberate action, or was it sound that typically accompanies “monkey mind' activities? Noise is an adjective that is used to describe how a sound is received by the hearer of the sound. Whereas one man can characterize sound as noise, another man can characterize sound as simply sound. The two experiences widely differ.
Good point, the only information we have is from the Buddha's own description, which was (as I recall) like fisherman hawking fish by the riverside. No doubt that would be "sound" to one person and "noise" to another.
@@DougsDharma Not intending to belabor a point here, but unless I jot down my description of an event and that description is preserved, it is someone else's description of what I said. I am always mind-full of this when I read historical accunts.
I find this very interesting
Namo Buddhaya 🙏😊
I read this sutta..
Namo Buddhaya 🙏😊
Hey Doug i have some questions related to Buddhism and buddha and i want to ask those questions personally.
Whare i can contact you personally?
Will you have a discussion on the sixth patriarch and why the lineage ended with him? My understanding is that he went beyond the Buddha's realization "Nothing is" and posited "Not a thing is" which includes the Buddhahood
I guess my conception of the buddha is that he was a sort of impenetrable fortress of spiritual perfection, so hearing that he was so bothered by noise seems almost strange. I didn't think the buddha would be personally bothered by anything. What do you think?
Yes, I also think it's strange! Maybe he was only testing Sāriputta and Moggallāna. Who knows?
' I'm out of here ' 😂.I had to laugh reading the title. Yes, it's a great example how events tend to be re-written in hindsight. I can imagine the elderly Buddha losing his patience with the new generations making a mess of his legacy . This became a story about semi-gods pleading with the Buddha to return teaching.
Yes, could be! 😄
@@rumi108 Why not ? You think he didn't have emotions , or lose his patience ? Maybe picturing him not having emotions is ' also a reflection. One that is projected later on. A state a enlightened superior being should have been in .
@@rumi108 No, losing patience is losing patience. And i don't know if the Buddha was 'free of such things' . Anyway, you are free to believe whatever you like . Nobody knows what actually happens. We all project what we believe upon these stories.
@@rumi108 I'm sure they will. It was nice chatting with you.Good bey.
@@rumi108 no it isn't
It's hard to teach to the illusion of the self because everyone is hypnotised by themselves as objects that they think exists. I don't blame him. No one ever reached enlightenment
Whether or not the Buddha is omniscient depends on which notion is more skilful for you personally to go with.
Sure, what you make of him will depend upon your viewpoint.
Hi Mr. Doug, 👋🏼
May I know what sutra this is? I have heard the story, but can’t find it in Sutra pitaka.
Links to the suttas mentioned are in the show notes below the video. 🙏
The early 4thc. Desert Monk Arsenious, left his group to move deeper into the 🏜️ desert , because even a quiet rustling of the reeds blowing in the breeze near his hut agitated his meditation...wow! Siddhartha was truly human!
Interesting!
@@DougsDharma Used to love reading the lives of the Desert Fathers..one pointed ascetics...but not sure how advanced they were. A Hindu Monk once told me that these Orthodox monastics certainly would reach Brahma-loka and then go to enlightenment from there. 🌞
If the guy wanted peace and quiet, he understood that he wasn’t going to get that peace and quiet until he allowed the monks to come back. He just would be continually bothered by those worried about the monks…
“When nothing is done, nothing remains to be done”…
Tao Te Ching
His action of sending the monks away caused a chain reaction of events, namely more people bothering him…
I wonder if the motive was not irritation caused by noise but discouragement at the monks’ lack of discipline and mindfulness. Incidentally, my own attitude towards noise has been changed by two magic words: sound minimalism. It is easy to work on minimalism of things, but the intention to cause few sonic vibrations, yourself, is a real aid to mindfulness, “Run silent, run deep.”
Yes, I think the Buddha would have been in favor of sound minimalism. 😊
After studying, trying, practicing, failing, trying again Mahayana Buddhism to include HYT I still find myself wanting to know what did the Buddha actually teach. What are his actual words. I am an old student of Mr. Goenka as well. What did the Buddha actually teach? I need to become enlightened so I can hear the teachings myself so until that happens can you recommend anything on this subject that might satisfy my inquisitiveness?
Well a lot of what I discuss on this channel is about the early teachings. I also have a playlist on book recommendations that might interest you!
I tried to quit being the doctor but it's impossible
Daniel Ray Waters Hazelton Ortiz
Does speculation about intentions or circumstances improve equanimity? Or does speculation hinder understanding of the inherent lesson?
I'd hesitate to give a blanket recommendation. I'd be concerned about "mental proliferation" when it comes to such speculations. But sure, they can work in certain circumstances.
Two things - firstly, it seems like the Buddha left his sense 'gates' unguarded, or maybe there should have been something in place to ensure that he wouldn't be disturbed - you would have thought. Secondly, a bit ironical that if it wasn't for the 'gods' interventions, Buddha would have perhaps gone off into the forest and we would never have had the Dharma, as we know it today. Just saying. Thank you Doug for your interesting videos.
🙏😊
Hello Mr Smith , I would like to talk about pratyeka buddha here . Is there any reason you'd like to give as to why is a pratyeka buddha unable to preach the dharma ? Do we have any sutta where the Buddha reflects upon this ?
Thank you .
I don't believe it's ever said that a praccekabuddha is unable to teach the dharma, just that they decide not to. For more on the praccekabuddha see: ruclips.net/video/Wyaywrf014U/видео.html
Hey doug, I'm new in Buddhism, and I want to understand fully about it, so should I read Tripitaka or you have any other suggestions?
I really recommend you Thripitaka and Dhammapada 😊👍
@@ishufree6548 did you read it?
These early primary sources are not easy to interpret for a 21st century person, so if you are new, it might be more useful to read contemporary teachers first. Pema Chödrön is a favorite of mine and my sangha friends. Then, you can always expand your reading into the early sources any time.
@@paulmeers4974 thanks for your advice, can you suggest any book of pema chodron?
Abhidharma lessons would help you understand Sutta's teachings deeply.
what do you think.... Do we still need Jhana for blissful experience since we have better and much more advanced world now full of blissful alternatives through sense doors? Is his teaching still relevant to modern scientific world?
I think so, jhāna is quite different from other sense-door bliss.
Thanks for that. I’d never heard it before though I’m aware that Buddha never wanted to teach as the truth was ineffable.
I don't think the Buddha ever said the truth was ineffable, at least not in the early suttas. His initial hesitancy to teach was basically because he felt people wouldn't want to hear his message and it would be difficult to get them to listen.
As you state at 3:39, this goes against the omniscience narratives &, by the "criterion of embarrassment", is most likely a true story from the life of the actual Buddha.
Yes, it's interesting isn't it!
If you're trying too hard, you're missing the point. The goal is the target, you're the arrow, and the Dharma is the bow.Oh,by the way, you are the archer.
probably it showed the lack of awareness or mindfulness in those monks. the Buddha seemed to teach about being aware and mindful? 🤔 and making noises were not a good sign of being mindful I guess.
Perhaps so!
Yeah ! One day The last buddha will born on earth ! it need many years ! it time we can ask buddha to our any questions ! and we'll know Buddha is a real GOD !! on earth buddhas already born in ! they all in peace world ! they dont need titles ! they only want to get peace to walk ourself ! im Buddhism !!
Plot twist:
Did the part where the Buddha says either he or the 2 disciples should leave presages the disciples' deaths as they passed away before the Buddha?
I don't think he was suggesting that his two disciples leave, rather that they should remain after he left.
never , Buddha never quit or doubt or not teaching as he is not a silent Buddha ( Prayekhabuddha) he is a Sammasambuddha the one who teach, all is for Brahma to invite to Buddha as the tradition from all past Buddha when coming to the world, Brahma will come to pay respect and invite the Buddha to teach.
Right, but by that time he had already taught and created the sangha.
Even though the buddha spoke for 45 years not a word uttered forth from his lips.
Is it possible that the Buddha was on the Spectrum? "Go away!" is something I can imagine even an enlightened being saying if said enlightened being were autistic.
I doubt he was autistic, but he does seem to have been a bit crotchety!
Can u talk about the bits that Scientology stole from Buddhism, in particular, 'cause ' as it relates to victim blaming.
I'm having a hard time with the idea that disabled children 'deserve it' or that blameless victims of car accidents are always partly to blame.
If someone doesn't accept the idea of reincarnation it's almost impossible to reconcile.
People bashing Scientology really go in hard on the victim blaming aspects of this kind of belief and it's making me feel bad.
Did I really go deaf from meningitis because I didn't listen to someone in a past life?
@Incog Nito This is a misconception especially in the west. In buddhism no one "deserves" their good or bad karma. It is just the natural result of actions. This along with emptiness or no self s the fundamental basis for the idea that one can change their future and happiness and why enlightenment or miserableness is possible. The nihilistic pointless meaningless view that "oh well sh#t happens that person was run over by a bus not much can be done about that" or the belief in a deity who decided they should die for that deity's arbitrary unknown maybe irrational reason like he deserved it or for spite is refuted.
@@eaaaaaaaaa4093 well, a monk in Nepal told me I'm deaf because I didn't listen to someone in a past life. And a monk in Thailand said my friend wouldn't have been hit by a car, because 'why did the car hit them instead of the person behind them? they were there because of their karma'. It's hard for me to reconcile.
@Incog Nito, I am sorry you have lost your hearing and that your friend was hit by a car. No one "deserves" this. The monk in Thailand could be seen to be effectively saying that your friend wouldn't have been hit if they weren't in that location. No one would dispute this. I see no blame here.. The meaning of Karma is Action. Cause and Effect.. that's it. What the monk in Nepal said cannot be trusted unless that Monk was a fully enlightened Buddha. I think in a buddhist perspective and how my teachers would argue, your deafness is likely a result of natural causes. How you handle your deafness and choose to live with it is the effect of your karma and how you deal with your personal goals and challenges.
*give up ............... and then give up giving up !*
The blessed one was a human afterall
True! 😄
some of the suttas seem very different from the others. almost suspect and out of place. this one seems like a soap opera - what dharma lesson is it teaching exactly?
What do you think it might be teaching?
@@DougsDharma I haven't read the sutta so I don't know the full context...but based on your video one thing it illustrates is how human they all were. I remember one sutta (or it might be in the Zen tradition) where there was an argument amongst the monks about the temperature of their dwelling (or something ordinary like that). I think those suttas are interesting in illustrating the daily life of these people and how they still have issues - like trying to dispel myths about enlightenment or similar. At the same time I think they're odd because its not a clear dharma teaching like many of the other suttas.
It's funny how you hear all the stories of how enemies of the Buddha tried to take him down and prove that he wasn't enlightened, or was a phony but he always came out on top by causing the attacker to have some kind of profound insight.
If only they would have just bombarded him with obnoxious music every day, he would have lost his s%^t and all of his followers would have abandoned him in disgust.
"The sound is just the sound. It is me who is going out to annoy it.” -Ajahn Chah
Seems Chah had an insight that the Buddha missed out on.
Yes, it could be!
I dunno but, remember to be vegan. :)