Very good, very important video. You handled everything really well, and that's definitely interesting learning about the roots of some of these still-used caricatures. I've seen the article you linked on Cuphead before, but I haven't read the other just yet - it seems super interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention! And yeah when the video was getting close to the end and you still hadn't mentioned the oregano cheeses, I was a bit confused, but then you touched on them and your reasoning checks out. This video is about caricatures of minorites that probably aren't used with malicious intent but still uphold racist imagery, whereas the cheeses... are kinda just outright racist and it's hard to see how a developer *wouldn't* realize that if they had good intentions. Again, great vid! Really glad I found your channel
In my opinion a lot of historical stereotypes get so detached from their origins that society as a whole doesn't really recognize the connection. Most things have a problematic origin if you look hard. If it gets to the point that the only people who see things to be caricaturas are the ones looking for it can it even be considered negative at that point? The problem with caricatures is that they effect the way we look at other and the world around us. No one who sees Mr Kingdice, despite his historical origins, would see that character and allow it to inform their opinions on African Americans cause that connection is not made in people's heads cause they are so far disconnected visually and culturally in the modern setting
I absolutely agree with this. Mr. Pinch is based on media that's been so ingrained into society, so old that people hardly can tell the roots of it, that you can't really say that _they specifically_ are at fault for not knowing the deep history of everything they so much as wink and nod at. As for the Tribal Cheeses, there's not really much reason to it other than a flimsy "they're just cheese" which, while not good, is still the case. They're not meant to be harmful - they were a product of the game's *very* early origins meant to even be friendly NPCs sometimes. They're just a leftover of the old, (pardon the pun) spaghetti western inspiration for Oregano Desert. (Also, I really just want to say, I don't think the "That's the one, officer!" ending is anything more than a silly joke with the existing Hamcuff enemies. The player being bad enough to get what is essentially a C-rank ending screen isn't some grand statement about inciting police brutality, just Peppino getting back at them.)
Another W discussion as usual. I really liked the grittier theming of Cuphead DDWTD, and felt that something was lost in DLC and especially The Cuphead Show, but realizing most of it was done out of racial concerns, that kinda opened my eye up to it all. Said "gritty" theming to me has to do more with the inclusion of stuff like alcohol, gambling, less vibrant settings, as well as the slight demonic undertones, but *never* any racial caricature bs. Like you said, these are hard to see, so I highly doubt the undertones of King Dice or Mr Pinch were intentional (especially not Dice, his design looks snazzy on surface-level). Something else I feel like touching on is the rare instances of caricatures being taken in by their ethnic groups, if you know what I mean. I remember when Mario Odyssey was first coming out, and some people on Twitter were making a fuss about Mario wearing a sombrero/poncho and playing guitar. Only for actual hispanic people to come out and say they LIKED Mario representing them. I think there was a similar instance with Speedy Gonzalez as well. And while not entirely related, I also remember seeing a couple artists make their own Pizza Tower AU fanarts that, instead of making the game's characters Italian themed, they made it Mexican or Australian or etc. Said artists actually *were* of the respective ethnicities, as they prefaced. To preface, I agree with everything you said in your video, another common W of yours like I said, I just wanted to add to the discussion myself.
There is a whole other side to this conversation about cultures adopting characters based on themselves, even in a comedic-forward fashion a la Speedy that is absolutely worth looking into, yeah. There’s a TON of nuance here, enough that you could very well just major in that interplay and make a career out of it, which is definitely worth appreciating.
Hey i am a black artist and could you please recognize the fact that King Dice was created by a black artist and animator Joseph Coleman? All is good but nothing about him and the artist's statement on it is never recognized despite being a black artist the article focuses on the MDHR bros rather then him despite the focus on King Dice it felt really scummy to me, You follow the same mistake by not recognizing him and what he said and instead talk about the bros here Coleman was the one who first mentioned the Cab Calloway influence and why he did it the article does mention the influence but does not do anything to mention who was it sourced and why. (Also once again please recognize Coleman's statement on why he a black artist himself created King Dice.)
While I do apologize for that oversight, I think it also speaks to something about this kind of debate when even in the big secondary sources a black artist's work is erased, especially given the fact that the game is only a few years old. My horse in this race isn't massive, and I don't foresee me doing a follow-up, but that is a good point to bring up and it would have been neat to have that context to drive the early discussion and research instead of having to learn in pretty far hindsight.
"...and for a lot of people, it's just something you don't even see." Then... isn't that a good thing? If looking at Mr. Burns or Mr. Pinch doesn't make the average person think "Oh look, a jew!" ...and instead they're thinking of Scrooge or Burns ...then what's the problem? Burns himself isn't jewish, no matter where his inspiration came from, and I've never heard anyone else say that Scrooge was meant to be a jew either. This is literally the first time I've even heard that Ebenezer is an israeli name and I'm sure I'm far from the only one here. Ignorance is bliss, if you will. If people like me are not aware of the connection, then it's not gonna affect our view of jews. Isn't that what this is all about? If we have to dig through several layers into the past to make a connection between these two characters and jews, then it's probably not going to affect the actual players of the game in any way. In fact, aren't we doing a disservice by pointing out these connections? It's actively perpetuating the stereotype. If we don't know that someone could make a connection between a long nose, greed, and jewish people, then why put it in their head? Now that I've learned about these connections, I'm not gonna be able to un-see them, and I'm constantly gonna be reminded of these jewish stereotypes, every time I see Burns, Scrooge or Mr. Pinch. I don't want that. I don't want these old stereotypes to be constantly revitalized and etched back into the Zeitgeist of today. I want a Zeitgeist where people won't just jump to conclusions the second they see a bigger than average nose or a hint of greed. I mean sure, if people wanna learn about this subject for the sake of history, that's different, but unless the actual game implies that a greedy and/or big-nosed character is jewish, then the game is not the one perpetuating the stereotype. Then it's just guilt by association. A really good example of a stereotype that has been lost to time is the "Mammy" archetype. Tom & Jerry has Mammy Two-Shoes, who gets the same kind of criticism as the other old racist stereotypes. However, in real life, mammies aren't a thing anymore these days. There are black housewives today, but not mammies. So someone who just watches an episode of Tom & Jerry and doesn't know about the history will just assume she's a housewife who happens to be black, because the stereotype she's based on is lost to time. But by complaining about her and digging the stereotype back up again, you are introducing it to a whole new generation. Like mine. Also, how fucking funny is it that we are arguing about unintentional stereptypes... in a game where the MAIN CHARACTER is a gigantic italian stereotype called "Peppino Spaghetti"? 🤣 But I guess it's fine because apparently we don't need to care about the feelings of italians because... I dunno, they haven't been oppressed enough, I guess. 😂 Personally, I think stereotypes are fine when they're not malicious. I'm german and I love seeing german stereotypes in american media. It's hilarious. Yes, even when they get into World War 2 territory. It's not something I take personally, it's just a joke. People need to know how to take a joke, it's an important social skill. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw the rat boss in Cuphead is german. I loved him, thick accent and all. I liked that he was based on a World War ONE soldier, since World War 2 soldiers are already all over the place. I'd rather live in a world where every race or nationality can be joked about if it's not done maliciously, rather than one where some groups are fair game and others get protection. That's not how different cultures bond. It only breeds resentment. Friendly ribbing and banter is how people bond, since there's a common understanding that they don't really mean it. European countries make fun of each other all the time, but when we actually sit down with one another we like to be friends despite our differences. But I digress. 😛
Very good, very important video. You handled everything really well, and that's definitely interesting learning about the roots of some of these still-used caricatures. I've seen the article you linked on Cuphead before, but I haven't read the other just yet - it seems super interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention!
And yeah when the video was getting close to the end and you still hadn't mentioned the oregano cheeses, I was a bit confused, but then you touched on them and your reasoning checks out. This video is about caricatures of minorites that probably aren't used with malicious intent but still uphold racist imagery, whereas the cheeses... are kinda just outright racist and it's hard to see how a developer *wouldn't* realize that if they had good intentions.
Again, great vid! Really glad I found your channel
This was an absolutely fascinating video on the subject. Really great job on this, Jay!!!
In my opinion a lot of historical stereotypes get so detached from their origins that society as a whole doesn't really recognize the connection. Most things have a problematic origin if you look hard. If it gets to the point that the only people who see things to be caricaturas are the ones looking for it can it even be considered negative at that point? The problem with caricatures is that they effect the way we look at other and the world around us. No one who sees Mr Kingdice, despite his historical origins, would see that character and allow it to inform their opinions on African Americans cause that connection is not made in people's heads cause they are so far disconnected visually and culturally in the modern setting
I absolutely agree with this. Mr. Pinch is based on media that's been so ingrained into society, so old that people hardly can tell the roots of it, that you can't really say that _they specifically_ are at fault for not knowing the deep history of everything they so much as wink and nod at.
As for the Tribal Cheeses, there's not really much reason to it other than a flimsy "they're just cheese" which, while not good, is still the case. They're not meant to be harmful - they were a product of the game's *very* early origins meant to even be friendly NPCs sometimes. They're just a leftover of the old, (pardon the pun) spaghetti western inspiration for Oregano Desert.
(Also, I really just want to say, I don't think the "That's the one, officer!" ending is anything more than a silly joke with the existing Hamcuff enemies. The player being bad enough to get what is essentially a C-rank ending screen isn't some grand statement about inciting police brutality, just Peppino getting back at them.)
Another W discussion as usual. I really liked the grittier theming of Cuphead DDWTD, and felt that something was lost in DLC and especially The Cuphead Show, but realizing most of it was done out of racial concerns, that kinda opened my eye up to it all. Said "gritty" theming to me has to do more with the inclusion of stuff like alcohol, gambling, less vibrant settings, as well as the slight demonic undertones, but *never* any racial caricature bs. Like you said, these are hard to see, so I highly doubt the undertones of King Dice or Mr Pinch were intentional (especially not Dice, his design looks snazzy on surface-level).
Something else I feel like touching on is the rare instances of caricatures being taken in by their ethnic groups, if you know what I mean. I remember when Mario Odyssey was first coming out, and some people on Twitter were making a fuss about Mario wearing a sombrero/poncho and playing guitar. Only for actual hispanic people to come out and say they LIKED Mario representing them. I think there was a similar instance with Speedy Gonzalez as well. And while not entirely related, I also remember seeing a couple artists make their own Pizza Tower AU fanarts that, instead of making the game's characters Italian themed, they made it Mexican or Australian or etc. Said artists actually *were* of the respective ethnicities, as they prefaced.
To preface, I agree with everything you said in your video, another common W of yours like I said, I just wanted to add to the discussion myself.
There is a whole other side to this conversation about cultures adopting characters based on themselves, even in a comedic-forward fashion a la Speedy that is absolutely worth looking into, yeah. There’s a TON of nuance here, enough that you could very well just major in that interplay and make a career out of it, which is definitely worth appreciating.
Hey i am a black artist and could you please recognize the fact that King Dice was created by a black artist and animator Joseph Coleman? All is good but nothing about him and the artist's statement on it is never recognized despite being a black artist the article focuses on the MDHR bros rather then him despite the focus on King Dice it felt really scummy to me, You follow the same mistake by not recognizing him and what he said and instead talk about the bros here Coleman was the one who first mentioned the Cab Calloway influence and why he did it the article does mention the influence but does not do anything to mention who was it sourced and why.
(Also once again please recognize Coleman's statement on why he a black artist himself created King Dice.)
While I do apologize for that oversight, I think it also speaks to something about this kind of debate when even in the big secondary sources a black artist's work is erased, especially given the fact that the game is only a few years old. My horse in this race isn't massive, and I don't foresee me doing a follow-up, but that is a good point to bring up and it would have been neat to have that context to drive the early discussion and research instead of having to learn in pretty far hindsight.
"...and for a lot of people, it's just something you don't even see."
Then... isn't that a good thing?
If looking at Mr. Burns or Mr. Pinch doesn't make the average person think "Oh look, a jew!" ...and instead they're thinking of Scrooge or Burns ...then what's the problem?
Burns himself isn't jewish, no matter where his inspiration came from, and I've never heard anyone else say that Scrooge was meant to be a jew either. This is literally the first time I've even heard that Ebenezer is an israeli name and I'm sure I'm far from the only one here. Ignorance is bliss, if you will.
If people like me are not aware of the connection, then it's not gonna affect our view of jews. Isn't that what this is all about?
If we have to dig through several layers into the past to make a connection between these two characters and jews, then it's probably not going to affect the actual players of the game in any way.
In fact, aren't we doing a disservice by pointing out these connections? It's actively perpetuating the stereotype. If we don't know that someone could make a connection between a long nose, greed, and jewish people, then why put it in their head?
Now that I've learned about these connections, I'm not gonna be able to un-see them, and I'm constantly gonna be reminded of these jewish stereotypes, every time I see Burns, Scrooge or Mr. Pinch.
I don't want that. I don't want these old stereotypes to be constantly revitalized and etched back into the Zeitgeist of today.
I want a Zeitgeist where people won't just jump to conclusions the second they see a bigger than average nose or a hint of greed.
I mean sure, if people wanna learn about this subject for the sake of history, that's different, but unless the actual game implies that a greedy and/or big-nosed character is jewish, then the game is not the one perpetuating the stereotype. Then it's just guilt by association.
A really good example of a stereotype that has been lost to time is the "Mammy" archetype. Tom & Jerry has Mammy Two-Shoes, who gets the same kind of criticism as the other old racist stereotypes. However, in real life, mammies aren't a thing anymore these days. There are black housewives today, but not mammies. So someone who just watches an episode of Tom & Jerry and doesn't know about the history will just assume she's a housewife who happens to be black, because the stereotype she's based on is lost to time.
But by complaining about her and digging the stereotype back up again, you are introducing it to a whole new generation.
Like mine.
Also, how fucking funny is it that we are arguing about unintentional stereptypes... in a game where the MAIN CHARACTER is a gigantic italian stereotype called "Peppino Spaghetti"? 🤣 But I guess it's fine because apparently we don't need to care about the feelings of italians because... I dunno, they haven't been oppressed enough, I guess. 😂
Personally, I think stereotypes are fine when they're not malicious. I'm german and I love seeing german stereotypes in american media. It's hilarious. Yes, even when they get into World War 2 territory. It's not something I take personally, it's just a joke. People need to know how to take a joke, it's an important social skill.
I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw the rat boss in Cuphead is german. I loved him, thick accent and all.
I liked that he was based on a World War ONE soldier, since World War 2 soldiers are already all over the place.
I'd rather live in a world where every race or nationality can be joked about if it's not done maliciously, rather than one where some groups are fair game and others get protection. That's not how different cultures bond. It only breeds resentment. Friendly ribbing and banter is how people bond, since there's a common understanding that they don't really mean it. European countries make fun of each other all the time, but when we actually sit down with one another we like to be friends despite our differences.
But I digress. 😛