@@mathieupetitjean1496 over fermentation my friend, just every 30 minutes during the bulk, poke it and when it slowly rises back it's done. If it easily springs back it's too early, if it leaves a dent .... welp theres another flat loaf
Eve Mihata I really enjoy (love) your program. At 80 yrs old I am still learning and bake at least once a week. This program was especially interesting to me since i make Japanese Shokupan with tanzhoung and/or yudane'. Continue your good work.
it would be great to prolong this experiment to test "shelf life" - test all breads not only after baking but also the next day, then another day, then test it after 3, 4, 5 days ... to see a real difference - taste, crumb, etc.. What water content & used technique actually mean in real life ...
Thank you so much for this experiment! I watch a lot of different language cooking videos and kept seeing breads using the yudane method. The closed captions don't describe why it works so this was amazingly helpful in understanding exactly what the boiling water paste was doing for the bread!
Haha, just wanted to try Tangzhong. I've never heard about that "Yudane" before, but looks promising, should try this one as well... Anyway, as I read about Tangzhong, that is not what you did... The 65°C is okay, but you have to cook the flour inside until its glue-like... also, Tangzhong use less flour... (or Yudan use more!? :D Some article says 7% for Tangzhong, 20% for Yudane) And as I said under your butter-experiment video: this is all for keep the bread fresh! Test should be "this is the bread after a week" (or at least 3 days), not right after cooled down :(
Man, you are a food geek! I thought that I was pretty well-read about bread but I've never heard of either of these methods. I need to do more research!
You should have made another couple sniff and taste tests, spaced 12 or 24 hour apart, to check for differences in how well they keep. Perhaps a "toast" test, 48 or 72 hours later, to check for palatability? Thanks for your great content, and soothing voice! Cheers from Uruguay!
Your channel saves me so much time....lol...I am a mad scientist in the kitchen, not always in a good way😬...so your videos keep me from disaster and all forms of kitchen mishaps and waist, though my compost pile loves it. I have a tendency strap on my experiment hat and destroy things...😂🤣
Omg wow I never knew high hydration isn't for oven spring. Everyone kept saying wetter means better. I came to a HALT when my new flour I was experimenting with came as flat as your control dough with 75% hydration (which I often would use in my previous flour). Then I learnt about flour hydration limit. Thanks for the great content, Sune.
Very useful, thanks! I recently used tangzhong for the first time -- making cinnamon buns. I had no idea that the purpose of it was to keep the bread fresher longer. With the cinnamon buns, there was no opportunity to test their shelf life, though -- they disappeared in a flash.
The fact that you mentioned at the end of the video why is it important to have a high hydration adds a lot of meaning to the video at all. Maybe mentioning that at the beggining would have made more people stay. Great video though, watched it jumping all over the place as I often do hehe
Sune great vid again. I can't remember where I heard it but you dispelled the myth that TZ doesn't impact sourdough. Well done. TZ would be a failsafe way of getting beginners to work with higher hydrations.
Thank you, Sune! Would love to see your take on something similar to Maurizio's sandwhich bread with pre-cooked flour. For me the jury is still out on the regular sourdough Tangzhong though - sourdough already has a pretty good shelf life, and can't really find a texture difference when I've made it. Also, I did notice that it had a somewhat more gummy texture once or twice, but didn't see any evidence of that in the breads from this video.
I’m wondering about the containers you use for bulk fermenting. Any chance you can share a link? We tend to just use a mixing bowl, but it isn’t as easy to tell how much it has risen exactly. Thanks!
Yes and no. While they are referring to the same thing, the way to make it is different. Also the ratio used into the whole recipe is also different. So if someone tells me to bake with Yudane, I will not do the calculation and use the Tongzhong method...
Interesting experiment. I am slightly confused with the way you made Tangzhong. I've made Hokkaido milk bread and Tangzhong had to be cooked on the stove until it looks kind of like a pudding. Your version was different. Overall, to me Tangzhong looked like a winner. Would be interesting to try it in no knead bread.
I was also wondering about that, I'm doing research about both methods and every other video has the tangzhong cooked until it's thick. I'm pretty sure that would have impacted the experiment. It's cool to see the techniques applied to a different bread than milk bread though!
Used Tangzhong many times and it always delivers in a bread easier to shape even with more water and much longer shelf life. The Yudane seems rather cumbersome having to knead it then break it up rather than just mixing in the Tangzhong roux. Good evaluation video. I have shifted to mostly Wild Yeast Water over conventional sourdough and Tangzhong works just as well with that dough. By the way what was that great piece playing around the 9:20 to 11:20 mark?
It is important that the yudane rests at least 12 hours before using. Also, do not mix it in with the rest of the ingredients right away. Knead the dough and get the gluten going first THEN combine the yudane into the dough and knead some more before you add your butter. Overall, the yudane method is said to create a more moist and a chewy mochi-chi like texture that they prefer in Japan.
I like these techniques with enriched doughs, specially sandwich bread. I cook the tangzhong on the pan, similar to a roux... To be honest, I have not noticed different flavor between tangzhong and yudane. However, tangzhong can hold a bit more water because of the cooking, so, it works better for lower hidration bread.
Yu dah nay and Tan-jong. Also, I am not familiar with the Yudane method, but definitely your tanzhong texture looks "wrong". It should look like home made glue, or pudding like consistency, yours look too watery and not cooked yet.
My experimentation shows that 25-50% is great for big oven spring. Closer to 50% if you like an open crumb. Doubling is good for pan bread, pizza and other things where you want a rise but not so much that the dough tears 😊
Nice music! I find myself just turning on your videos just to hear the music while absorbing your instructions. I’ll try your link! Do you play guitar on any of it?
My doughs always need a 4th stretch and fold. 100% of my dough is bread flour and my starter is also made with 100% bread flour...maybe thats a reason why. Any other ideas?
I'm re-watching all your videos that related to hydration. I will certainly try the Tangzhong technique to see if I can get higher hydration from my current bread flour... but do you have videos that help you characterize a flour or blend a flour that can deliver higher hydration and still keep the shape?
I would like to see how the bread would look like if you used fresh yeast or dry yeast insted of a starter. Could it be any good? :)) I am really interested
Tangzhong is the clear winner, with better crumb, I think. The control was something of a fail for being flat, due to the high hydration in that flour, I guess.
Interesting experiment. I've used tangzhong for regular bread and liked the results - seems to give a much softer crumb. I'd like to try it with sourdough. At about the 8:00 mark you say you put them into a bulking container and (something something) 25%. What's the "something something"?
I notice that you take the top of your Challenger bread pan out of the oven after uncovering. Do you let it reheat before loading the next loaf? If so, how long?
With the Yudane and the Tangzhong making the flour partially hydrolysed, maybe it would have been better to hydrolysed the flour for one hour in the control ? Maybe you needed two controls here. But hey, in the end, the video still show that the Yudane and Tangzhong methods do help a lot with high hydratation dough, that's what mater.
@Robert Rotenberg. I totally agree! My GF and I are pretty inconsistent in our bread consumption to the point where we are often sorry we gave away the second loaf right out of the oven because we devour the first one in a day. Other times we don’t even cut into the second loaf because it went stale after 3 or 4 days. Fortunately our Great Pyrenees loves the stale bread, and if I cut it up and allow it to air dry, it’s a chew toy for her. For about 15 seconds that is.
Ok so the thing I learned is hydration doesn't relate to crumb openness! Had that wrong all this time... whoops. Great video, Sune. Always seem to learn a few things every time I watch one of these
Maurizio Leo (another king of sourdough baking) wrote an article on King Arthur Baking website two days ago about baking for an open crumb. Seems it is about many things, and not necessarily high hydration but more likely appropriate hydration for the flour that's being used. Was an illuminating read!
@@Hollyferris Thanks for sending me to that article! at KAF!! Not only did I find out some interesting tidbits, but I now have another blog to check out. The loaves he showed are amazing “open interiors”; spoken like a true ex-engineer he is.
When I was shown how to make Tangzhong, I was told to cook it over the stovetop until it came together to form a paste. Simply adding boiling water wouldn't have the same effect.
Yes your right but he did it in the microwave. Which I must try for convenience and cooking it is to get it to the correct temperature. Which was achieved using the microwave. Watch the video again, the Yudane was the one where the boiling water was added to the flour.
Tangzhong is supposed to keep bread fresher longer without chemicals. Maybe do one with Tangzhong and another regular. Bag both a week, and test for uncooked taste another toast for each. Also, everything I learned about Tangzhong is that the temp needs to hit between 140-150 F. Over or under and it does not work as well. I Tangzhong all my white bread so it lasts longer. (I add cold eggs to my tangzhong to bring the temp down for my sandwich bread)
Yeah I like the idea of having them sit for a week and then check how dry they end up. I would say don't put them in a bag though as that would keep more moisture in which would kind of defeat the purpose.
In reality the two terms are just different pronunciations of the same . Yudane in Japan Does Not state the ratio as a strict 1:1 . It is only stated as 1:1 or more water being heated to 65 C to gelatinize the 'roux'. (forget most of the RUclips recipes for the both in that they are misinformation . ) Just technicality that does not affect this experiment.
Brainfart: do you know how high the % water in your breadflour is? So, for instance, I know the flour we produce has a moist-percentage of roughly 15,5%. I wonder how much impact that percentage has on the hydration level of the dough.
I came across this video that has some new to me info on tangzhong & yudane. I now prefer using about 15-20% recipe flour in a yudane with a 1:2 ratio of flour:water. ruclips.net/video/_mFYeiLzLpo/видео.html Yudane is more convenient. I let it cool below 110⁰F then mix it into remaining cool recipe water. Thanks, Sune, for all your experiments.
Your flat control loaf is the first loaf on this channel that I can relate to
You bake a lot of 90% hydration? ☺️
@@Foodgeek it ends up flat more often than not regardless of the hydration 🤔
Perdu
@@mathieupetitjean1496 it might be to acidic
@@mathieupetitjean1496 over fermentation my friend, just every 30 minutes during the bulk, poke it and when it slowly rises back it's done. If it easily springs back it's too early, if it leaves a dent .... welp theres another flat loaf
Eve Mihata
I really enjoy (love) your program. At 80 yrs old I am still learning and bake at least once a week. This program was especially interesting to me since i make Japanese Shokupan with tanzhoung and/or yudane'. Continue your good work.
Thank you for writing. You have no idea how much it means to me to be able to inspire to keep learning
You are an amazing teacher with a scientific approach!!!!I love your videos!!!.
Thanks!
תודה!
Thank you and you're welcome!
it would be great to prolong this experiment to test "shelf life" - test all breads not only after baking but also the next day, then another day, then test it after 3, 4, 5 days ... to see a real difference - taste, crumb, etc.. What water content & used technique actually mean in real life ...
Thank you so much for this experiment! I watch a lot of different language cooking videos and kept seeing breads using the yudane method. The closed captions don't describe why it works so this was amazingly helpful in understanding exactly what the boiling water paste was doing for the bread!
Haha, just wanted to try Tangzhong. I've never heard about that "Yudane" before, but looks promising, should try this one as well...
Anyway, as I read about Tangzhong, that is not what you did... The 65°C is okay, but you have to cook the flour inside until its glue-like... also, Tangzhong use less flour... (or Yudan use more!? :D Some article says 7% for Tangzhong, 20% for Yudane)
And as I said under your butter-experiment video: this is all for keep the bread fresh! Test should be "this is the bread after a week" (or at least 3 days), not right after cooled down :(
Brilliant. This is the information I was looking for.
Enjoyed watching your skill at handling the dough.
“Yudane” is pronounced in 3 syllables, yu-da-ne
Right... Japanese is generally consonent-vowel consonent-vowel pairings, with some exceptions.
It was killing me a bit 🤭
@@auramora definately dying hearing it pronounced yudayne.
He's Danish, pretty sure he's making a joke about the dane at the end of the word. Naturally it is yoo-dah-neh but that was amusing.
Man, you are a food geek! I thought that I was pretty well-read about bread but I've never heard of either of these methods. I need to do more research!
You should have made another couple sniff and taste tests, spaced 12 or 24 hour apart, to check for differences in how well they keep. Perhaps a "toast" test, 48 or 72 hours later, to check for palatability?
Thanks for your great content, and soothing voice!
Cheers from Uruguay!
Your channel saves me so much time....lol...I am a mad scientist in the kitchen, not always in a good way😬...so your videos keep me from disaster and all forms of kitchen mishaps and waist, though my compost pile loves it. I have a tendency strap on my experiment hat and destroy things...😂🤣
Omg wow I never knew high hydration isn't for oven spring. Everyone kept saying wetter means better. I came to a HALT when my new flour I was experimenting with came as flat as your control dough with 75% hydration (which I often would use in my previous flour). Then I learnt about flour hydration limit. Thanks for the great content, Sune.
Very useful, thanks! I recently used tangzhong for the first time -- making cinnamon buns. I had no idea that the purpose of it was to keep the bread fresher longer. With the cinnamon buns, there was no opportunity to test their shelf life, though -- they disappeared in a flash.
As is right and proper :D
searching for a cinnamon bun recipe using tangzhong and sourdough starter only, no commercial yeast. can you help?
The fact that you mentioned at the end of the video why is it important to have a high hydration adds a lot of meaning to the video at all. Maybe mentioning that at the beggining would have made more people stay. Great video though, watched it jumping all over the place as I often do hehe
Thank you
Man, even if you don't like bread.. watch this channel anyway, the music is phenomenal.
do you think the Yudane/Tangzhong method would help make a more soft/lofty Stollen?
No, it helps give you a moister (when baked) and more workable dough :)
Great n super demo
Never understand thumbs down on these videos. They are experiments. What kind of people don't love experiments?
Sune great vid again. I can't remember where I heard it but you dispelled the myth that TZ doesn't impact sourdough. Well done. TZ would be a failsafe way of getting beginners to work with higher hydrations.
0:41 the ratio fluor to water has to be other way around, one to five and not five to one. To make Tangzhong you have to use more liquid than flour.
Which temperature are you using to (bulk) ferment?
Thanks for sharing, Sune!
Thank you, Sune! Would love to see your take on something similar to Maurizio's sandwhich bread with pre-cooked flour. For me the jury is still out on the regular sourdough Tangzhong though - sourdough already has a pretty good shelf life, and can't really find a texture difference when I've made it. Also, I did notice that it had a somewhat more gummy texture once or twice, but didn't see any evidence of that in the breads from this video.
I’m wondering about the containers you use for bulk fermenting. Any chance you can share a link? We tend to just use a mixing bowl, but it isn’t as easy to tell how much it has risen exactly. Thanks!
Tangzhong and yudane are literally just the Mandarin and Japanese pronunciations (respectively) of the same word (湯種 ゆだね)
True
Lol... white dude talking shit? That never happens.
Yes and no. While they are referring to the same thing, the way to make it is different. Also the ratio used into the whole recipe is also different. So if someone tells me to bake with Yudane, I will not do the calculation and use the Tongzhong method...
Why is the Control so poor are they over fermented?
Over hydrated 😊
Interesting experiment. I am slightly confused with the way you made Tangzhong. I've made Hokkaido milk bread and Tangzhong had to be cooked on the stove until it looks kind of like a pudding. Your version was different. Overall, to me Tangzhong looked like a winner. Would be interesting to try it in no knead bread.
I was also wondering about that, I'm doing research about both methods and every other video has the tangzhong cooked until it's thick. I'm pretty sure that would have impacted the experiment. It's cool to see the techniques applied to a different bread than milk bread though!
@@AdventuresofCarlienne What a timing of your comment. I am making Hokkaido bread today and just cooked Tangzhong this morning to use in my dough :)
@@ilanaryz awesome! Can I ask what recipe you're using?
@@AdventuresofCarlienne I hope its not too impolite to paste here link to another recipe. But here it is ruclips.net/video/tc3coiL36Cg/видео.html
@@ilanaryz Ahhh I've seen this, ok, good to know that it's a good recipe, thanks so much!
Whao...that is interesting. 😯
@Foodgeek - Do you know the name of the piece that begins at 4:11?
Thanks for everything! I would like to know what is that nice dutch oven that you are using?
It's called Challenger. fdgk.net/buy-challenger-bread-pan-yudane-tangzhong
Foodgeek Thanks!
Used Tangzhong many times and it always delivers in a bread easier to shape even with more water and much longer shelf life. The Yudane seems rather cumbersome having to knead it then break it up rather than just mixing in the Tangzhong roux. Good evaluation video.
I have shifted to mostly Wild Yeast Water over conventional sourdough and Tangzhong works just as well with that dough.
By the way what was that great piece playing around the 9:20 to 11:20 mark?
It is important that the yudane rests at least 12 hours before using. Also, do not mix it in with the rest of the ingredients right away. Knead the dough and get the gluten going first THEN combine the yudane into the dough and knead some more before you add your butter.
Overall, the yudane method is said to create a more moist and a chewy mochi-chi like texture that they prefer in Japan.
Whoa! This is important information! How do you store it for 12 hours without having it dry out?
Further research is needed, as you mentioned at the end of the video.
What do you use for your bulking containers? Great experiment by the way, very informative :)
I like these techniques with enriched doughs, specially sandwich bread. I cook the tangzhong on the pan, similar to a roux...
To be honest, I have not noticed different flavor between tangzhong and yudane. However, tangzhong can hold a bit more water because of the cooking, so, it works better for lower hidration bread.
Yu dah nay and Tan-jong. Also, I am not familiar with the Yudane method, but definitely your tanzhong texture looks "wrong". It should look like home made glue, or pudding like consistency, yours look too watery and not cooked yet.
Why sometimes you expect 25% rise and sometimes 50% or even doubled in sourdough, can you share your insight? Thank you. I enjoy all your videos.
My experimentation shows that 25-50% is great for big oven spring. Closer to 50% if you like an open crumb. Doubling is good for pan bread, pizza and other things where you want a rise but not so much that the dough tears 😊
Wait, WHAT. You have less than 100k subscribers?!!??!?!?!?! I've lost hope in humanity
Nice music! I find myself just turning on your videos just to hear the music while absorbing your instructions. I’ll try your link! Do you play guitar on any of it?
How about doing an experiment using all steam, no steam and control?
My doughs always need a 4th stretch and fold. 100% of my dough is bread flour and my starter is also made with 100% bread flour...maybe thats a reason why. Any other ideas?
I would have thought that you would prefer the Yudane method because You Dane.
Do your loafs go right into the oven from the refrigerator or do you let them come to room temperature first?
I'm re-watching all your videos that related to hydration. I will certainly try the Tangzhong technique to see if I can get higher hydration from my current bread flour... but do you have videos that help you characterize a flour or blend a flour that can deliver higher hydration and still keep the shape?
I would like to see how the bread would look like if you used fresh yeast or dry yeast insted of a starter. Could it be any good? :)) I am really interested
Tangzhong is the clear winner, with better crumb, I think. The control was something of a fail for being flat, due to the high hydration in that flour, I guess.
Interesting experiment. I've used tangzhong for regular bread and liked the results - seems to give a much softer crumb. I'd like to try it with sourdough. At about the 8:00 mark you say you put them into a bulking container and (something something) 25%. What's the "something something"?
"and let them grow"
My transcription service didn't deliver the subtitles yet, but they will be in as soon as they are done :)
I notice that you take the top of your Challenger bread pan out of the oven after uncovering. Do you let it reheat before loading the next loaf? If so, how long?
You didn't mix the dry ingredients when making the "yudane" - was that on purpose?
Love your vidz 😊🙌
With the Yudane and the Tangzhong making the flour partially hydrolysed, maybe it would have been better to hydrolysed the flour for one hour in the control ? Maybe you needed two controls here. But hey, in the end, the video still show that the Yudane and Tangzhong methods do help a lot with high hydratation dough, that's what mater.
17:20 if you sell the bread by the kg it’s also cheaper to make and lasts longer. Win win.
Very true. Water is a lot cheaper than flour 😁
And shelf life is very important if you bake for a household of two people.
@Robert Rotenberg. I totally agree! My GF and I are pretty inconsistent in our bread consumption to the point where we are often sorry we gave away the second loaf right out of the oven because we devour the first one in a day. Other times we don’t even cut into the second loaf because it went stale after 3 or 4 days.
Fortunately our Great Pyrenees loves the stale bread, and if I cut it up and allow it to air dry, it’s a chew toy for her. For about 15 seconds that is.
I do the same
Ok so the thing I learned is hydration doesn't relate to crumb openness! Had that wrong all this time... whoops. Great video, Sune. Always seem to learn a few things every time I watch one of these
Maurizio Leo (another king of sourdough baking) wrote an article on King Arthur Baking website two days ago about baking for an open crumb. Seems it is about many things, and not necessarily high hydration but more likely appropriate hydration for the flour that's being used. Was an illuminating read!
@@Hollyferris Thanks for sending me to that article! at KAF!! Not only did I find out some interesting tidbits, but I now have another blog to check out. The loaves he showed are amazing “open interiors”; spoken like a true ex-engineer he is.
Nice flatbreads!
Hello from one Martin guitar geek to another.
When I was shown how to make Tangzhong, I was told to cook it over the stovetop until it came together to form a paste. Simply adding boiling water wouldn't have the same effect.
Yes your right but he did it in the microwave. Which I must try for convenience and cooking it is to get it to the correct temperature. Which was achieved using the microwave. Watch the video again, the Yudane was the one where the boiling water was added to the flour.
@@mandiigraham1596 tangzhong does not look like that, what he did...I don't know what he did but that is not tangzhong
Tangzhong is supposed to keep bread fresher longer without chemicals. Maybe do one with Tangzhong and another regular. Bag both a week, and test for uncooked taste another toast for each. Also, everything I learned about Tangzhong is that the temp needs to hit between 140-150 F. Over or under and it does not work as well. I Tangzhong all my white bread so it lasts longer. (I add cold eggs to my tangzhong to bring the temp down for my sandwich bread)
I wisk in some of the cold milk to mine to cool it.
Yeah I like the idea of having them sit for a week and then check how dry they end up. I would say don't put them in a bag though as that would keep more moisture in which would kind of defeat the purpose.
In reality the two terms are just different pronunciations of the same . Yudane in Japan Does Not state the ratio as a strict 1:1 . It is only stated as 1:1 or more water being heated to 65 C to gelatinize the 'roux'. (forget most of the RUclips recipes for the both in that they are misinformation . )
Just technicality that does not affect this experiment.
Oh boy I just got used to the tangzhong, I wonder how this yudane is going to work 😅
Yudane and tangzhong is also fluffier
I think it’s pronounced “you-DAH-nay”
Not a big deal, just nitpicking.
Check it out you can totally hear the last word of each sentence quietly drop out haha
You are not the first to notice, it's something that I've been working hard on changing :)
Too bad you didn't do also a scald version with all the 20% rye, boiling water and in the oven for 4h at 65°C :)
would these methods work well for low absorbing flours like einkorn or spelt? I like to bake with 100% einkorn flour.
I always use this roux method for my spelt bread... nv used yudane
@@bakerman5454 nice do you have a recipe that I can follow? I’m planning on making 100% spelt bread this week.
That awkward moment of silence at 14:58
Yeah, I think I would have let loose a string of curse words! Shows that Sune has more self-control than me.😜
Brainfart: do you know how high the % water in your breadflour is? So, for instance, I know the flour we produce has a moist-percentage of roughly 15,5%. I wonder how much impact that percentage has on the hydration level of the dough.
I could build a house with all the failures from mi kitchen.😥
Tangzhong just pronouce as "Tang - Jong"
I came across this video that has some new to me info on tangzhong & yudane. I now prefer using about 15-20% recipe flour in a yudane with a 1:2 ratio of flour:water.
ruclips.net/video/_mFYeiLzLpo/видео.html
Yudane is more convenient. I let it cool below 110⁰F then mix it into remaining cool recipe water.
Thanks, Sune, for all your experiments.
Recommend this analysis of water roux ratios and percentage to repeat this experiment at higher percentage
ruclips.net/video/OpK1CeW9xm8/видео.html
Not impressed by any of them. Supermarket bread.