Speaking as a former Army medic, I can tell ya that an .80 caliber hole that deep ain't no joke. Wouldn't hesitate a second to use them in my 1911's or Glock 21. Great test as usual. 👍
How can 9mm fans see such performance not wake up and see just how much damage and stopping power their nines don't have? It is simply ludicrous to prefer their little high capacity weaklings. Thank you sir for demonstrating what us big bore guys are all about.
Expansion notwithstanding, im impressed with the SPEED on those boys 950+ is screamin for a 230 grain! Especially when most +P loads are also a little bit lighter, like maybe 185 grain, and they still dont achieve that Props to ole Winchester on that one
I carried this round for over 20 years. Just switched back to 9mm at work a couple months ago. I can tell you from experience it works on people, deer, and dogs. I have been to two autopsies involving that round and it is devastating . I say this prior to watching the video, lol. I still carry it in my 1911. I have saved up some rounds from over the years. I carried it in a HK USP and 2 SW MP.
Those are the exact round that my Sheriffs Department issued with the Glock 21. I carried them until I retired. They worked very well in the shootings we had.
This is the duty ammo I carried twenty years ago in my department issued Sig220. Less than two weeks after completing my FTO training I found myself in a pursuit and gunfight with a meth dealing POS that was supposed to have been deported the previous month. He bailed out shooting at me with a Jennings 9mm wearing a heavy Carhartt coat and flannel shirt. I responded in kind with results that were about the same as your jelly test…though they did make him quickly reconsider his life choices. I fired from about 8 yards with round #1 lodging in his esophagus, #2 in his left deltoid, and #3 which was intended for his skull (fresh out of the academy and countless 2 to the chest, 1 to the head drills) in the tree that stopped his truck after the TVI (PIT). The experience led me to buying with my own money and carrying for the duration of my career a Sig226 then later a Sig229 when I transition to plain clothes both in 357sig with the 125gr Ranger T Series ammo (which thankfully I never had to use) however, judging by your other videos had I been carrying the 357 instead of the 45 that night I suspect the end result would have made the jobs of the EMS and the ER folks more of a challenge.
That velocity from the 4.25" Commander is truly +P and an impressive achievement. I would gladly carry these. These seemed A rated to me, whereas getting perfect symetrical expansion might earn the A+. However, the small imperfection might be cause for a combined Awesome Expansion + Tumble Upon Impact might equate to a better self defense outcome than "perfect." 👍👍 for an incredible test and Public Service Announcement, Tools. Enjoy the weekend and don't forget it is Mothers Day.
Always nice to see good .45ACP testing. I don’t have a .45 but is nice to see how the ammo performs and what you are paying for no matter what test. Keep up the good work. Have a good weekend and be safe. 🇺🇸🇺🇸⭐️🇺🇸🇺🇸
Ain't that something how when you were testing in the bare gel we all thought that these were the cats meow, now that you are testing consistently with the cloth we see the real picture in not only these but several different offerings as well. I thought the +P would have made a bit more of a difference than it did before you started, now like you said looking at the big picture these did ok and would certainly get the job done no doubt about that. Have a good one brother see you on the next one.
@@ToolsandTargets short of a shotgun i think a 45 carbine is the best tool for things that go bump in the night. An ar is great but projectile can go a long way with a miss . A 230gr 45 auto not so much
I hardly ever get my .45 out (Colt 1911) it's kind of a safe queen but if I did decide to carry it I don't think I would be afraid to use these. Good test, nice info to know, Thank You, keep up the good work.
Interesting test Tools. I'm surprised that the shorter barrel performed somewhat better than the longer faster gun. Then you pulled the bullets out and it's clear neither performed the way they should have. You have to wonder what they would do and look like if they performed the way you'd expect. But in the long run I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of these. Have a great weekend. Be vigilant and always be safe my friend.
🇦🇺😎👍Love those 1911s ❤ love those 45s….nasty disrupter ….i wonder if they’d open up better with a longer barrel out of something like a Thompson Contender ? 🤔 Wow those projectiles are messed up …imaging pulling them out of the flesh 😟..great video mate 😎have a fantastic weekend
Tools- it seems everytime I get a new gun- you know somehow and test ammo for it. I picked up a nice used Colt 1991 A1 - 4 1/4 " Combat Commander a few days ago. Got it from my neighbor for a heck of a price. And just this morning I ordered 2 new standard 18# springs and a 20# spring to use with Plus P rounds. So far I've bought some American Eagle FMJ 230gr and a box of Winchester Defend 230gr hollow points. I'm planning on trying some Plus P in her when I get the new springs in. Anyway, great video like always. I appreciate all the time and work you put into doing these test.
It’s really hard to find this ammo. It’s never ever on the shelf in the gun shops. At least here in the Tampa Bay Area where I live. Trying to find it online isn’t easy either. I have found it but the sites require LE creds and I’m an RN not an leo. Great work as always man. Thanks for all the work you put in for us fudds out here.
SGAmmo gets it in every now and then. AIM Surplus every now and then gets LE trade in ammo. I know I just got an email from them in the last week or so with LE trade ammo. I can't remember what calibers it was though I know some of it was 12 gauge but positive there was some handgun ammo too. Most all I have I got at gun shows. I have got a huge variety of stuff. I have a bunch of .40 S&W Ranger ammo I got at a gun show 15 years or so ago that the dealer said was a contract over run that is in plain white boxes that says Winchester on it and the casings aren't nickel plated but they have the 180 grain T series bullets think I paid like $15 a box for it back then. I know I bought a bunch of 50 round boxes of .45 HST for like $25 a box like 7 or 8 years ago that is what I carry but I have all sorts of stuff in all the calibers. Midway had a hell of a sale recently on Atomic and Underwood and I bought a bunch of 9mm, .45 and some other calibers some of it was like $10 a box.
Great test, Brian! It is amazing how much difference there is between bare gel and the heavy clothing! Althpugh both of these would get the job done very effectively, the inconsistent expansion is a bit worrysome. Personally, I'd like to another 25 fps on both of them but at least these were a bit of jump from the standard pressure loads. If I were out of the Underwood ammo I would carry these with confidence. Maybe a bit less than if I had my regular ammo, but I wouldn't be too worried about them not doing their job. A good back up to my regular stuff! Cheers, jc
Just off hand, I would say that 2 out of 2 is a good indication! Usable, but certainly not 100%. In most cases, any failure is a complete fail in my book but since both of these opened up "mostly" I'd give them a passing grade of C. I suspect that if the currently 'unobtainium' Speer 230 gr. Gold Dot Short Barrel were available, and the velocities were the same (they are not... Speer loads them to a lower standard pressure velocity and I don't know if they make a +P version - plus they are trying to push their G2 version which we already know doesn't work as well as the regular GDHP!) I would opt for the Speer bullet. Since I can load my own stock of the SB version to whatever pressure my little heart desires (up to crazy but never to insane levels! Mama didn't raise no fools!) I go with the Speer's as a back up to my more expensive, first choice, Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets! Cheers, jc
The best performance you’ll get out of a 45acp and honestly any other handgun caliber , in my humble opinion is from the xtreme defender lines . More people need to know about these . You never have to worry about your projectile expanding correctly or incorrectly due to inadequate speed or getting clogged . Please do some test comparing those rounds to the best of the best hollow points out there , I’d gladly buy you a box of pew sticks if you did sir
I've tested Xttreme Defenders and Penetrators in multiple calibers and multiple tests. They're nothing that folks don't know about. Some, including myself, just prefer a conventional expanding hollow point unless it's in something like .380 acp where it's difficult to impossible to get good hollow point performance.
Great test sir! Idk why Winchester doesn't make the 230gr. Ranger sxt anymore? The cavity is larger and the front of the bullet is flatter. The Talons are smaller but much sharper and the ranger sxt have no problem with heavy clothing. I was involved in an officer involved shooting in 2000 with the 230gr. S.P. ranger-sxt. The suspect was a BM, very large and musculer wearing a white tank top & was high on Marijuana,pcp and crack cocaine, armed with a long barreled 22.revolver. I was carrying the glock 21. I fired 2 times. The first round bowed him straight up and back striking him in the low chest, it sounded like slapping ur hand on a side of beef because it was a 20yard shot and a standard pressure round we all heard it hit. The suspect still had the gun in his hand as he backpeddled so i fired again striking him in the abdomen, he made a horribly sounding squeal as he was falling down backwards and deliberately threw the gun down. He starting death posturing almost instantly. Neither bullet hit a vital organ but both rounds opened fully with slight jacket core separation and were cut out of his back on autopsy. They cracked him open on scene in the back of the ambulance and it was a mess full of blood internally so there was nothing emsa could do to help. There wasn't much blood externally ,it was mostly internal bleeding. It was determined the full penetration and expansion of both rds.and added cutting from the very sharp talons that killed him so quickly. I have 1 box left and thats what i carry as a retired Major in my full size 1911 45.
@@maxmccain8950 The story from the Skokie Illinois Sgt who was on his last magazine in a gunfight was using 230 grain Speer Gold Dot. He switched to a G17 after that. The 124 grain +P Gold Dot has a good reputation in actual shootings.
I’ll stick to HST’s and Gold Dots. Thanks for the info sir. I’m amending my statement to include the Nosler as loaded by Underwood. They look like great performers. Old school but still very valid.
The .40S&W are the only ones that did what they were supposed to through the cloth. The rest were either fails outright, or had very little and inconsistent expansion compared to the bare gel testing.
Definitely agree with the heavy clothing test!👍🏻 I don’t buy Winchester ammunition anymore. I have some silver tips but I got them before I knew better! They just aren’t worth the price! Don’t get me wrong those performed well enough to do the job. BUT so does other brands that are much cheaper. I recently bought some 9 mm 124 gr+ p HST for 36.99. I just haven’t seen anything better at that price! Winchester wants to charge 80$ for a lesser product 🤯
A lot of legends in the old days like black talon, Glaser safety slug, Corbon, silvertips, duplex rounds etc. But 4:13 honestly they did perform well for the times.
I agree , it's difficult to find a consistent or adequately expanding .45acp round. Most , regardless of brand , tend to perform like fmjs' . For that reason I find myself carrying my .45s' less and less . Like you said , these seemed to be the best of the lot .Thanks T&T , these test can literally be "life-savers" !
Thanks for another great ammo test. Over the decades, I have purchased the original Winchester Black Talon ammo and the Winchester Bonded JHP ammo which was similar in performance to the original Black Talon. Loved them both. If I can find the Winchester Ranger T-Series +P ammo that you tested, I will buy it.
Lately in my 1911 ive been carrying Sig 230 gr v crown because there the most accurate load ive found that hits point of aim in my 1911.. im not sure how well they perform in gel but there really accurate.. i also got some 230 grain hydra shoks recently i was going to see if they hit point of aim because if they do they will probably be my new 45 ACP carry ammo.. I usually prefer gold dot or HST but haven't been able to find them in 45 ACP in my local area recently so I settled for the V crowns and Hydra shoks even though I do have some 45 HST put back
Not bad performance at all...thanks for the testing, brother. I do prefer 230 grain bullets in 45 ACP (especially in the 1911 platform), but I have come to think 200 grain hollow points at +P velocities stand a much better chance of reliably and fully expanding from the short barrels that are in vogue while still penetrating sufficiently. I just don't like the added muzzle flash and the fact they usually have a significant shift in POI vs. the 230s.
That has to do the the velocity envelope the bullet was designed to operate in, not necessarily the velocity itself. Heavier bullets will always expand larger and penetrate deeper, having more inertia and more lead to spread.
This is what I have loaded in my bedside Glock 21. I hope I never have to fire that pistol in anger, but if I do, I am confident that both the gun and the ammo will get the job done.
I got a box of this ammunition when my police department switched to the 124 grain +P SXT. We had a case of this ammunition in 230 grain +P SXT from the Winchester Rep. The T-Series came after the SXT. The joke was this replaced the Black Talon so the SXT is the same exact thing! The SXT is a devastating round!
Yeah, there is a good history of the rounds on the Wiki page. They have all been more urban legend than anything else as far as performance. These things have been far outclassed by some of the modern ammo.
@@ToolsandTargets The Long Island Rail Road Massacre shooter Colin Ferguson loaded up his Ruger 9mm with 147 grain Winchester Black Talons. The media was reporting how devastating the wounds were to the victims because of the sharp blades of the bullet design.
@@boostimalaka1 Who would have thought the media would call a bullet devastating. My point exactly. Any hollow point round, or fmj for that matter, will be "devastating" especially out of a carbine and even more so in the eyes of someone who makes a living from sensationalism. These rounds will kill you, but they're absolutely nothing special.
The performance was good even with the bullets not completely expanding. If WW ever tweeks the Ranger line to be consistent it’ll be nasty. Thanks for the jelly test Tools!
Not ideal...but still within the FBI requirement's. I have seen Ranger-T available online at relatively good price's for 50 round boxes. I know they have fairly solid reputation for barrier penetration. Still a completely viable round for self-defense IMO.
They look extremely gnarly, all twisted and mangled, so many cutting surfaces. Even if they "failed" the heavy clothing they are still big .80 bullets that went to the deep end, doesn't need to be a full inch picture petfect star to get it done.
I appreciate your reviews. Before all these I'd thought the ranger t would be amazing. The more I see them against the clothing barrier the more I don't like them.
Those rounds aren't too bad! My question is how does the commander size carry? The handgun I shoot best is a Rock Island 1911 9mm A1, however, it's a little too big and heavy for edc! I want to stay with the platform and be comfortable. I know, I'm asking a lot!😅
I picked up a Colt Combat Commander recently. I took her out with me today for the 1st time doing errands. I hip carried OWB with a leather holster, loaded up with Winchester 230gr Defend standard velocity hollow points. Had my shirt untucked to conceal her. It wasn't really uncomfortable. But I could tell I was packing some iron and wood ! I've carried several big caliber autos over the years, so I knew what to expect. It's comforting knowing you have a 45 with you. But to be honest, I don't think your average person is gonna carry an all steel Commander everyday. Especially during warm weather. And I'll admit, in my old age, I'll probably be more likely to carry my S&W 642 38 Airweight snub and S&W Bodyguard 380 auto more than I will the Colt. I do sometimes almost forget I'm carrying those guns, even when I carry both of them together. The Commander doesn't let you forget she is on your side. Lol.
Good performance but I would like to see more uniformed expansion. They probably would have without the clothing but I prefer test with the clothing. More realistic as to how they would perform against a threat. Another nice test.
I currently have Federal's American Eagle version of that load in my S&W 642 snub. They are rated at 890 fps, compared to 800 fps that most brands load the 130gr FMJ .
Agree with permanent clothing barrier, but can I suggest perhaps occasional (seasonal) tests that explore expansion through winter type clothing? An "insulated leather jacket" setup, on top of rugby shirt fabric would be interesting, as would a typical deer hunter kit out for a 20 degree morning.. Or maybe a down jacket, preferably NorthFace (snooty), over a tie die material with an anti-gun slogan on it. A lot of rounds are making it now, gotta raise the bar to separate the the contenders from the pretenders.
Certainly doesn't match the Gold Dot or HST 230 loads for symmetry, but those are pretty freakin gnarly. Can't imagine them not accomplishing their intended purpose.
You noted that these were older versions of the cartridge; the newer ones having more petals. Perhaps that is to address the issue of not fully expanding. Smaller petals might expand more. Regardless, based on your test, I would feel comfortable carrying these. Another good video!
The Linda Blair Denim Demon puts the pea soup splash on another one and then tosses it out the window, down a couple hundred stairs and onto the road below in a crumpled mess.
Speaking as a former Army medic, I can tell ya that an .80 caliber hole that deep ain't no joke. Wouldn't hesitate a second to use them in my 1911's or Glock 21. Great test as usual. 👍
Thank you sir. Appreciate you!😎👊
Got any more of them 80 caliber holes? Lol
@@Neglect-Discharge expansion?
Hell yeah brother, glock all the way
As a former slacker and current couch commando , I can confirm 80 cal holes that deep aint no joke
Those recovered bullets look absolutely wicked. I would not feel undergunned carrying that ammo.
Big hunks of lead.😎👍
How can 9mm fans see such performance not wake up and see just how much damage and stopping power their nines don't have? It is simply ludicrous to prefer their little high capacity weaklings. Thank you sir for demonstrating what us big bore guys are all about.
Expansion notwithstanding, im impressed with the SPEED on those boys
950+ is screamin for a 230 grain! Especially when most +P loads are also a little bit lighter, like maybe 185 grain, and they still dont achieve that
Props to ole Winchester on that one
Yeah, the speed was there for sure. These bullets just have so much trouble with this cloth.
I carried this round for over 20 years. Just switched back to 9mm at work a couple months ago. I can tell you from experience it works on people, deer, and dogs. I have been to two autopsies involving that round and it is devastating . I say this prior to watching the video, lol. I still carry it in my 1911. I have saved up some rounds from over the years. I carried it in a HK USP and 2 SW MP.
Any .45 round is gonna be a bad day for the recipient.😎👍
@@ToolsandTargets Roger that !
" saved up through the years" aka - stole from the tax payers
Those are the exact round that my Sheriffs Department issued with the Glock 21. I carried them until I retired. They worked very well in the shootings we had.
They left a mark.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets a permanent mark.
This is the duty ammo I carried twenty years ago in my department issued Sig220.
Less than two weeks after completing my FTO training I found myself in a pursuit and gunfight with a meth dealing POS that was supposed to have been deported the previous month. He bailed out shooting at me with a Jennings 9mm wearing a heavy Carhartt coat and flannel shirt. I responded in kind with results that were about the same as your jelly test…though they did make him quickly reconsider his life choices. I fired from about 8 yards with round #1 lodging in his esophagus, #2 in his left deltoid, and #3 which was intended for his skull (fresh out of the academy and countless 2 to the chest, 1 to the head drills) in the tree that stopped his truck after the TVI (PIT). The experience led me to buying with my own money and carrying for the duration of my career a Sig226 then later a Sig229 when I transition to plain clothes both in 357sig with the 125gr Ranger T Series ammo (which thankfully I never had to use) however, judging by your other videos had I been carrying the 357 instead of the 45 that night I suspect the end result would have made the jobs of the EMS and the ER folks more of a challenge.
Glad you're still here to comment on it, brother!😎👊
Carried 357 sig in a 229 at the beginning of my career too. I still maintain it’s the most devastating pistol caliber issued to law enforcement
I'm totally satisfied with these. In either my 5" and 3.5 1911
😎👊
Still end up with a big, nasty, gnarly, jagged bullet. This would jack things up pretty bad if used. Thank you sir. We choose HST +P 230 in our 45s.
Yeah, I wouldn't wanna try to catch one.😆
I like HST in the winter and Ranger T in the summer
@@Kinetic.44 this is the way!
That velocity from the 4.25" Commander is truly +P and an impressive achievement. I would gladly carry these. These seemed A rated to me, whereas getting perfect symetrical expansion might earn the A+. However, the small imperfection might be cause for a combined Awesome Expansion + Tumble Upon Impact might equate to a better self defense outcome than "perfect."
👍👍 for an incredible test and Public Service Announcement, Tools. Enjoy the weekend and don't forget it is Mothers Day.
Thank you sir. You too.😎👍
Always nice to see good .45ACP testing. I don’t have a .45 but is nice to see how the ammo performs and what you are paying for no matter what test. Keep up the good work. Have a good weekend and be safe. 🇺🇸🇺🇸⭐️🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thank you sir. Appreciate ya!
I carried this round with confidence for 10 years or so before switching to HST. Anyway, awesome video as usual. CHEERS!
I was expecting a little more speed. Love the clean gel. You’re the best Hoss.
Ain't that something how when you were testing in the bare gel we all thought that these were the cats meow, now that you are testing consistently with the cloth we see the real picture in not only these but several different offerings as well. I thought the +P would have made a bit more of a difference than it did before you started, now like you said looking at the big picture these did ok and would certainly get the job done no doubt about that. Have a good one brother see you on the next one.
Yeah, these T Series have really disappointed me overall. Wait till you see how pathetic the 124 +P 9mm are.😣
950 and 970 from a 230 gr bullet is pretty impressive out of a handgun !
😎👍
Roger that !
Always good to see 45acp tests. I would carry them if I had 'em. I usually carry Federal Punch or Hornady Critical Duty 45acp. Good test brother 👍🏻🇺🇸
Thank you sir.😎👊
the hst 45s are by far the best performers i have ever tested.
@@andreawhalen4142 I have them in 9mm, couldn't find it in 45, but yes, hard to beat HSTs.
E sempre bom ver testes de 45acp, parabéns pelo vídeo. Ótimo final de semana para você
Obrigado senhor. Tenha um ótimo final de semana também! 😎👍
I love those wrap around wood grips. 😌
That round is a great candidate for a 16 inch bbl carbine test.
Mhmm
@@ToolsandTargets short of a shotgun i think a 45 carbine is the best tool for things that go bump in the night. An ar is great but projectile can go a long way with a miss . A 230gr 45 auto not so much
I hardly ever get my .45 out (Colt 1911) it's kind of a safe queen but if I did decide to carry it I don't think I would be afraid to use these. Good test, nice info to know, Thank You, keep up the good work.
Thank you sir. That's why you gotta get ya a cheap one to shoot.😎👍
Those would definitely do the job. Great video, as always, brother.
Thank you sir.😎👊
Interesting test Tools. I'm surprised that the shorter barrel performed somewhat better than the longer faster gun. Then you pulled the bullets out and it's clear neither performed the way they should have. You have to wonder what they would do and look like if they performed the way you'd expect. But in the long run I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of these.
Have a great weekend.
Be vigilant and always be safe my friend.
Thank you sir. You too!😎👊
I'd hate to be on the business end of them, Thanks Brian, have a stellar weekend. 👍
Yessir. Wouldn't be good time.😎👊
I’m very happy with that performance. I carry these in my Sig C3. You improved my confidence in my carry ammo. Thank You!
😎👊
🇦🇺😎👍Love those 1911s ❤ love those 45s….nasty disrupter ….i wonder if they’d open up better with a longer barrel out of something like a Thompson Contender ? 🤔 Wow those projectiles are messed up …imaging pulling them out of the flesh 😟..great video mate 😎have a fantastic weekend
Slice and dice!😆😆😆
Loaded to 45 Super velocities they are devastatingly perfect!
😎👊
At least you hold the ammo companies accountable. Gives everyone a good choice for carry.
😎👍
Good test, it really performed better than almost any .45 ACP I've seen.
Love the channel and content tou provide. Its much appreciated. Any chance you have bloopers ? Maybe put them at the end of your videos ?
Id like to see the deleted content of him cussing out the jelly contraption.
My bloopers are more like rage compilations because of weather or technical difficulties.😆😆😆
Tools- it seems everytime I get a new gun- you know somehow and test ammo for it. I picked up a nice used Colt 1991 A1 - 4 1/4 " Combat Commander a few days ago. Got it from my neighbor for a heck of a price. And just this morning I ordered 2 new standard 18# springs and a 20# spring to use with Plus P rounds. So far I've bought some American Eagle FMJ 230gr and a box of Winchester Defend 230gr hollow points. I'm planning on trying some Plus P in her when I get the new springs in. Anyway, great video like always. I appreciate all the time and work you put into doing these test.
Nice! Appreciate that!😎👊
great test and i always liked black talons and these upgraded version too. thanks my friend, good job.
Thank you sir.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets your welcome 👍👍👍
It’s really hard to find this ammo. It’s never ever on the shelf in the gun shops. At least here in the Tampa Bay Area where I live. Trying to find it online isn’t easy either. I have found it but the sites require LE creds and I’m an RN not an leo. Great work as always man. Thanks for all the work you put in for us fudds out here.
Thank you sir. If you have a shop that does LEO supply and trades, they'll usually have some.😎👍
Florida Fudd power!!!
SGAmmo gets it in every now and then. AIM Surplus every now and then gets LE trade in ammo. I know I just got an email from them in the last week or so with LE trade ammo. I can't remember what calibers it was though I know some of it was 12 gauge but positive there was some handgun ammo too. Most all I have I got at gun shows. I have got a huge variety of stuff. I have a bunch of .40 S&W Ranger ammo I got at a gun show 15 years or so ago that the dealer said was a contract over run that is in plain white boxes that says Winchester on it and the casings aren't nickel plated but they have the 180 grain T series bullets think I paid like $15 a box for it back then. I know I bought a bunch of 50 round boxes of .45 HST for like $25 a box like 7 or 8 years ago that is what I carry but I have all sorts of stuff in all the calibers. Midway had a hell of a sale recently on Atomic and Underwood and I bought a bunch of 9mm, .45 and some other calibers some of it was like $10 a box.
Get the federal punch 230 grain. It’s a great performer
Thanks. You know I love me some .45 +p and super!
😎👊
Great test ! My favorite caliber
Thank you sir.😎👊
Thanks for the test! Ive heard these supposedly work better in flesh than gel,but I'd rather ammo that's not so picky.
😎👍
Great test, Brian! It is amazing how much difference there is between bare gel and the heavy clothing! Althpugh both of these would get the job done very effectively, the inconsistent expansion is a bit worrysome. Personally, I'd like to another 25 fps on both of them but at least these were a bit of jump from the standard pressure loads. If I were out of the Underwood ammo I would carry these with confidence. Maybe a bit less than if I had my regular ammo, but I wouldn't be too worried about them not doing their job. A good back up to my regular stuff!
Cheers,
jc
Thank you sir. Makes me wonder just how inconsistent they are or aren't.
Just off hand, I would say that 2 out of 2 is a good indication! Usable, but certainly not 100%. In most cases, any failure is a complete fail in my book but since both of these opened up "mostly" I'd give them a passing grade of C. I suspect that if the currently 'unobtainium' Speer 230 gr. Gold Dot Short Barrel were available, and the velocities were the same (they are not... Speer loads them to a lower standard pressure velocity and I don't know if they make a +P version - plus they are trying to push their G2 version which we already know doesn't work as well as the regular GDHP!) I would opt for the Speer bullet. Since I can load my own stock of the SB version to whatever pressure my little heart desires (up to crazy but never to insane levels! Mama didn't raise no fools!) I go with the Speer's as a back up to my more expensive, first choice, Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets!
Cheers,
jc
The expansion does look a little funny but it's still gonna hurt Haha ha
That's for sure.
I like how you addressed the clothing layer issue and I think that I have to agree that you are right in your conclusion.
Appreciate that, brother.😎👊
Can we get some ak soft points vs like a hornady polymer tip ??
I'll see what I can come up with.😎👍
Always appreciate your work Tools 👍
Thanks! Appreciate that.😎👍
LAPD’s S.I.S unit carried this round in their Glock 30’s for years, maybe they still do, and was very happy with it’s performance
😎👊
As always; tremendous review! Thank you for all of your PSA's....
Thank you sir.😎👊
Working in EMS saw a lot of gun shots,45 apc is a killer..
Yes indeed.
The best performance you’ll get out of a 45acp and honestly any other handgun caliber , in my humble opinion is from the xtreme defender lines . More people need to know about these . You never have to worry about your projectile expanding correctly or incorrectly due to inadequate speed or getting clogged . Please do some test comparing those rounds to the best of the best hollow points out there , I’d gladly buy you a box of pew sticks if you did sir
I've tested Xttreme Defenders and Penetrators in multiple calibers and multiple tests. They're nothing that folks don't know about. Some, including myself, just prefer a conventional expanding hollow point unless it's in something like .380 acp where it's difficult to impossible to get good hollow point performance.
Pretty sure anyone that's into guns knows about the extreme defender bullets
Great test sir! Idk why Winchester doesn't make the 230gr. Ranger sxt anymore? The cavity is larger and the front of the bullet is flatter. The Talons are smaller but much sharper and the ranger sxt have no problem with heavy clothing. I was involved in an officer involved shooting in 2000 with the 230gr. S.P. ranger-sxt. The suspect was a BM, very large and musculer wearing a white tank top & was high on Marijuana,pcp and crack cocaine, armed with a long barreled 22.revolver. I was carrying the glock 21. I fired 2 times. The first round bowed him straight up and back striking him in the low chest, it sounded like slapping ur hand on a side of beef because it was a 20yard shot and a standard pressure round we all heard it hit. The suspect still had the gun in his hand as he backpeddled so i fired again striking him in the abdomen, he made a horribly sounding squeal as he was falling down backwards and deliberately threw the gun down. He starting death posturing almost instantly. Neither bullet hit a vital organ but both rounds opened fully with slight jacket core separation and were cut out of his back on autopsy. They cracked him open on scene in the back of the ambulance and it was a mess full of blood internally so there was nothing emsa could do to help. There wasn't much blood externally ,it was mostly internal bleeding. It was determined the full penetration and expansion of both rds.and added cutting from the very sharp talons that killed him so quickly. I have 1 box left and thats what i carry as a retired Major in my full size 1911 45.
Another great jelly test Brotha , I wouldn't hesitate to use these as they are as imperfect as I am .. lol
Thank you sir. 😂
Either way I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of them. Another great video brother tools.
Nope.😎👍
Not bad ammo. I would carry either for EDC. Especially knowing how 45 can do. Thanks for the video. Have a good weekend.
Thank you sir. You too!
To get a true reading, add a 1/4" piece of particle board behind your fabric.
This is what I carry at work in my glock 21, except in the plus p version
Our department changed from Ranger T to Speer Gold Dots. The Gold Dots are very consistent performers. Thank you for your service sir.
This is +P.😎👍
Ours too. Speer gold for law enforcement
@@maxmccain8950 The story from the Skokie Illinois Sgt who was on his last magazine in a gunfight was using 230 grain Speer Gold Dot. He switched to a G17 after that. The 124 grain +P Gold Dot has a good reputation in actual shootings.
I’ll stick to HST’s and Gold Dots. Thanks for the info sir. I’m amending my statement to include the Nosler as loaded by Underwood. They look like great performers. Old school but still very valid.
I could use an overview to clarify which of these post-Black Talon styles have rocked, and which ones tanked.
The .40S&W are the only ones that did what they were supposed to through the cloth. The rest were either fails outright, or had very little and inconsistent expansion compared to the bare gel testing.
@@ToolsandTargets Thanks, brother.
Definitely agree with the heavy clothing test!👍🏻 I don’t buy Winchester ammunition anymore. I have some silver tips but I got them before I knew better! They just aren’t worth the price! Don’t get me wrong those performed well enough to do the job. BUT so does other brands that are much cheaper. I recently bought some 9 mm 124 gr+ p HST for 36.99. I just haven’t seen anything better at that price! Winchester wants to charge 80$ for a lesser product 🤯
HST is the gold standard for expanding lead hollow points.😎👍
@@ToolsandTargets I agree I was happy to get 50 rounds for 36.99! I managed to get 7 boxes 😁
I just picked some 9mm hst 124g 50rd boxes for 28.99 each
@@Whitefeather83 Great price! Where at?
@@allenbolen9705 gt distributors
A lot of legends in the old days like black talon, Glaser safety slug, Corbon, silvertips, duplex rounds etc. But 4:13 honestly they did perform well for the times.
Yeah, some folks just can't stand the thought that their childhood hero is easily outmatched by some of today's contenders. 🤷♂️
I agree , it's difficult to find a consistent or adequately expanding .45acp round. Most , regardless of brand , tend to perform like fmjs' . For that reason I find myself carrying my .45s' less and less . Like you said , these seemed to be the best of the lot .Thanks T&T , these test can literally be "life-savers" !
Thank you sir. Appreciate that bigtime!😎👊
Holy s*** them things do some crazy damage
Yep
Thanks for another great ammo test.
Over the decades, I have purchased the original Winchester Black Talon ammo and the Winchester Bonded JHP ammo which was similar in performance to the original Black Talon. Loved them both. If I can find the Winchester Ranger T-Series +P ammo that you tested, I will buy it.
The Winchester Ranger Bonded is the LEO branded version of the Defenders.😎👍
Very good test, I'd take this consistency everyday! I may have to get a box of these, Thanks T! Appreciate you as always Sir!
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We’re in the shirt weather down here about 9 months out of the year so these will work perfectly for my 45s
Lately in my 1911 ive been carrying Sig 230 gr v crown because there the most accurate load ive found that hits point of aim in my 1911.. im not sure how well they perform in gel but there really accurate.. i also got some 230 grain hydra shoks recently i was going to see if they hit point of aim because if they do they will probably be my new 45 ACP carry ammo.. I usually prefer gold dot or HST but haven't been able to find them in 45 ACP in my local area recently so I settled for the V crowns and Hydra shoks even though I do have some 45 HST put back
Hydra Shoks are definitely some good stuff.😎👍
@@ToolsandTargets guard dogs where the best i had tested awhile back but hst's took over when they stopped making guard dog.
Not bad performance at all...thanks for the testing, brother. I do prefer 230 grain bullets in 45 ACP (especially in the 1911 platform), but I have come to think 200 grain hollow points at +P velocities stand a much better chance of reliably and fully expanding from the short barrels that are in vogue while still penetrating sufficiently. I just don't like the added muzzle flash and the fact they usually have a significant shift in POI vs. the 230s.
I agree with your comment. Well said.
Yeah, If I carried a 1911, I would probably go lighter than 230 myself.
@@ToolsandTargets I am carrying Underwood 120 grain at 1420 Fps right now! Ha! I know, I know.
They are 45 ACP I failed to specify. Very cool
That has to do the the velocity envelope the bullet was designed to operate in, not necessarily the velocity itself. Heavier bullets will always expand larger and penetrate deeper, having more inertia and more lead to spread.
The loading QC is incredible. Wish all ammo pressure was that consistent
Yeah, very nice in that regard.😎👍
Ranger T's are my go to in just about every caliber. I carry the 9mm in my Walther, .40 in my M&P40 and the 45 in my 1911
The .40 is some good stuff.😎👍
Dang, if that’s a failure I’d be happy to be called a loser.
Good comment. Me2
This is what I have loaded in my bedside Glock 21. I hope I never have to fire that pistol in anger, but if I do, I am confident that both the gun and the ammo will get the job done.
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I got a box of this ammunition when my police department switched to the 124 grain +P SXT. We had a case of this ammunition in 230 grain +P SXT from the Winchester Rep. The T-Series came after the SXT. The joke was this replaced the Black Talon so the SXT is the same exact thing!
The SXT is a devastating round!
Yeah, there is a good history of the rounds on the Wiki page. They have all been more urban legend than anything else as far as performance. These things have been far outclassed by some of the modern ammo.
@@ToolsandTargets The Long Island Rail Road Massacre shooter Colin Ferguson loaded up his Ruger 9mm with 147 grain Winchester Black Talons. The media was reporting how devastating the wounds were to the victims because of the sharp blades of the bullet design.
@@boostimalaka1 Who would have thought the media would call a bullet devastating. My point exactly. Any hollow point round, or fmj for that matter, will be "devastating" especially out of a carbine and even more so in the eyes of someone who makes a living from sensationalism. These rounds will kill you, but they're absolutely nothing special.
@@ToolsandTargetsBring them all out and compare them up in a video can't wait to see if there nothing special.
Watching from Oregon
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The performance was good even with the bullets not completely expanding. If WW ever tweeks the Ranger line to be consistent it’ll be nasty. Thanks for the jelly test Tools!
Yeah, I see a lot of it traded in at my local shop so makes me wonder if pretty much everyone is getting away from it.
The non +p seems to do better and consistently expands.
Very nice placement in the gel 🙌🏻
Thank you sir. It gets tricky sometimes.😎👍
Nothing gets your attention like looking down the barrel of 45acp.
It makes some big holes.
New name fir those Mangle T series !
😆😆😆
NOW THAT'S A SPICY MEATBALL!
😂😂😂
Not ideal...but still within the FBI requirement's. I have seen Ranger-T available online at relatively good price's for 50 round boxes. I know they have fairly solid reputation for barrier penetration. Still a completely viable round for self-defense IMO.
Definitely.😎👍
They look extremely gnarly, all twisted and mangled, so many cutting surfaces. Even if they "failed" the heavy clothing they are still big .80 bullets that went to the deep end, doesn't need to be a full inch picture petfect star to get it done.
I appreciate your reviews. Before all these I'd thought the ranger t would be amazing. The more I see them against the clothing barrier the more I don't like them.
Same here. Too many better choices for the money.
that 4.25 in barrel is way better than I thought, and this comment is before the 5 in, stopped the video at 5:25.
Good speeds.
Good test . But what no one brings up is the energy transfer. And it looks like both of these rounds had plenty of energy transfer.
Yep
Those rounds aren't too bad! My question is how does the commander size carry? The handgun I shoot best is a Rock Island 1911 9mm A1, however, it's a little too big and heavy for edc! I want to stay with the platform and be comfortable. I know, I'm asking a lot!😅
No idea. I would never carry either of these or any other 1911 personally.🤷♂️
@@ToolsandTargets 😮 that's surprising!
@@chrislang5659 Way too heavy to be anywhere as close to comfortable as a micro 9mm.
I picked up a Colt Combat Commander recently. I took her out with me today for the 1st time doing errands. I hip carried OWB with a leather holster, loaded up with Winchester 230gr Defend standard velocity hollow points. Had my shirt untucked to conceal her. It wasn't really uncomfortable. But I could tell I was packing some iron and wood ! I've carried several big caliber autos over the years, so I knew what to expect. It's comforting knowing you have a 45 with you. But to be honest, I don't think your average person is gonna carry an all steel Commander everyday. Especially during warm weather. And I'll admit, in my old age, I'll probably be more likely to carry my S&W 642 38 Airweight snub and S&W Bodyguard 380 auto more than I will the Colt. I do sometimes almost forget I'm carrying those guns, even when I carry both of them together. The Commander doesn't let you forget she is on your side. Lol.
Compared to the standard T Series, these actually did pretty good. Standard T Series usually dissapoint from the past videos. 👌
Yeah, the .40S&W are the only ones to do just as good through cloth as the bare gel.
The rounds may not have expanded perfectly however 100+ fps faster then MilSpec ball is impressive.
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Nice video. I'm not a fan of the flying ashtray, but they would do the job
Thank you sir.
Not perfect but not bad either. I would love to see this vs the platinum tips which are the same newer black talon but for 44mag
They would definitely leave a mark.
That'll do nicely.
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I certainly don’t want to be on the receiving end of those. They look pretty vicious to me. Thanks for the video.
Me either!😎👍
Good performance but I would like to see more uniformed expansion. They probably would have without the clothing but I prefer test with the clothing. More realistic as to how they would perform against a threat. Another nice test.
Thank you sir. Have a great weekend!😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets You too brother.
i think the best grain weight for 45acp is 185gr plus p. i dont go over 200gr weight and at that weight i still use plus p loads
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Remember, a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink.
True!
Any chance you could ever test the original 38 military loading. That being a 130 grand FMJ.
Wouldn't be much to see different from any other fmj I've tested. They either tumble or they don't. The problem is not being able to guarantee either.
I currently have Federal's American Eagle version of that load in my S&W 642 snub. They are rated at 890 fps, compared to 800 fps that most brands load the 130gr FMJ .
You need a 3 inch 1911 like the colt defender or kimber ultra carry in 45acp.
Great job my man! How does these Winchesters compare with the Buffalo Bore 250 grain? THX!
Agree with permanent clothing barrier, but can I suggest perhaps occasional (seasonal) tests that explore expansion through winter type clothing? An "insulated leather jacket" setup, on top of rugby shirt fabric would be interesting, as would a typical deer hunter kit out for a 20 degree morning.. Or maybe a down jacket, preferably NorthFace (snooty), over a tie die material with an anti-gun slogan on it. A lot of rounds are making it now, gotta raise the bar to separate the the contenders from the pretenders.
Am I testing ammo or putting on Paris fashion week!😜
@@ToolsandTargets Good one.
I got a couple boxes of the black box 45 ranger t ammo love them
It's "My wife is going through the finances and is asking uncomfortable questions, jelly time"!
🤣🤣🤣
informative and entertaining......as usual! Thanks. ( do you really like that Rock Island??)
Thank you sir. It's been a great gun.😎👍
I think you're spot on with everything. You're not unarmed with these, but there's better out there.
Appreciate you checkin it out!😎👊
Yep, better being known as Hooligan Shredding Terminators.
👍👍thanks tools…..another great test
Thank you sir.😎👊
Certainly doesn't match the Gold Dot or HST 230 loads for symmetry, but those are pretty freakin gnarly. Can't imagine them not accomplishing their intended purpose.
You noted that these were older versions of the cartridge; the newer ones having more petals. Perhaps that is to address the issue of not fully expanding. Smaller petals might expand more. Regardless, based on your test, I would feel comfortable carrying these. Another good video!
Thank you sir.
Love these videos... Cool video Tools
Thank you sir.😎👊
The Linda Blair Denim Demon puts the pea soup splash on another one and then tosses it out the window, down a couple hundred stairs and onto the road below in a crumpled mess.
🤣🤣🤣
I like the clothing, and really like the 1911/2011! 45acp especially!
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