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As a neutral myself I thought that was a very fair presentation of all sides involved .... also no side "lost face" all did their duty, in the fortunes of war some fall but none failed!
A little anecdote about Air Cdre Alam narrated by Air Cdre Jamal Hossain: The great M M Alam was comparing the combat effectiveness of F-86 and Hunter aircraft. This was after the 1965 Pak-India war during which, while flying in his F-86, he had shot down a fair number of Indian Hunters. "F-86 is much superior to the Hunter. It is superb. Great. The F-86 will always shoot down the Hunter. Always." "Sir, what if you were flying the Hunter against the F-86 in combat?" "Of course I would shoot the F-86 easily. It is no match to the Hunter." Great video as always btw, especially on such a tricky topic.
I met M M Alam twice. Once when i went for a haircut and the other time when I visited the PAF Faisal hospital. That was a few years before his death. He was highly respected by people from all walks of life. He never married. He was given a permanent VIP room in Officers Mess with all facilities, messing and a personal servant free of cost till the end of his life. His post retirement photos with a group of senior serving squadron officers hang proudly in many bases. He was a very devout man and was not afraid to speak boldly and openly what he believed was right. He breathed his last in 2013 and is burried in PAF Masroor Karachi.
Irrespective of exactly how many Indian jets M Alam shot down it is a commonly acknowledged view that he was the best fighter pilot in the India Pakistani wars. Well done showtime112 for a nice video!
Thanks! That's the point Sajad Haider makes, even if you apply the strictest criteria, he still had four victories. Only Saiful Azam had the same score (although mostly in another conflict).
Excellent video with a cross-section of expert analysis. I appreciated the way - to avoid detractors - you included 2 Pakistani sources to counteract Alam's claims.
Thank you for the comment! It's interesting to have objective sources from the country of the claimant. Usually it's just 'one side says this, the other side says that'.
@@showtime112 Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm British but my parents are from Bangladesh - so I always open the popcorn to watch the fireworks in the comments section when you publish a India/Pakistan video. Keep up the great work.
Another great video. I don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems like those 6, .50 cal machine guns on the F-86 were more lethal against the Hunter than on the Mig-15. Perhaps the Hunters systems were more complex and more vulnerable to a few hits vs the Mig. I can hardly get over how good these graphics are.
Nice video, the fact that even Tufail and Haider register serious disagreements with the 5 in 30 seconds story and present more modest and realistic scenarios should be the definitive proof that the original claim is bogus wartime myth-making.
Thank you for the comment! All five kills are not very likely, but it was still a very successful mission. Two other kills prove that this wasn't just a fluke.
As usual, an unbiased account of the events. Bravo Showtime 112! There are many contested claims and incidents in the history of aerial warfare. Perhaps the most debated ones are about (1) Who shot down the Red Baron? (2) M.M. Alam - Did he or didn't he? Whatever anyone may say, he certainly was a gifted pilot and didn't deserve the ignominy which was heaped upon him by the PAF. They practically turfed him out after claiming that he was illiterate. Now, that is a real shame.
Another great video! It should be noted that the Pakistani Sabres were Canadair built Mk6s with the much more powerful Orenda 14 engine. Quite superior to the J47 powered F86 E/F. Speeds were very similar to the Indian Hunter Mk56 down low and at altitude however the Hunter had a higher rate of climb and 30mm cannon vs. the 0.5 machine guns of the F86. The MK6 Sabre will out roll and out turn the Hunter. The Hunter will out zoom the Sabre. Again, strength and weaknesses to each with the more skilled and savvy pilot, understanding relative strengths and weakness, usually coming out on top.
Thanks for the comment! I believe the Sabres used in 1965 were original, American ones. Pakistan later acquired some ex-German, Canadair Sabres which were used in 1971. However, I use Canadair Sabre here because in WT, they can carry missiles 😁
Didn't Franz von Werra the only Luftwaffe pilot to escape British captivity in WW2, claim he came upon a silly amount of fighters circling to land and shot them all down?
@traviswalker8933 it's a long meme in war thunder He sponsored the company, gaijin. Gaijin has the logo of a snail and is greedy for money so everyone calls it snail and that it would get you if you don't pay.
@@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu still one sided reply.. In 1965 India and Soviet relations were not as close as the US and Pakistan had. The biggest problem with nations like pakistan, Iran, north Korea, Iraq is that you guys always behave Big mouth over confidence and never lose any war with 0 casualties like video games that is why nobody trusts on 30 seconds
Four kills, the first claim happened a minute or two earlier. Also, 30 seconds might not be entirely accurate either. It could have easily been 50 or 60. Hard to judge exact time under such circumstances.
Personnaly, the only thing that I don't understand in this strory is why nobody bothered checking the gun cam images, because it could have resolved most of the problem and avoid useless controversies. Aside from that, this is a well made video as allways, and I wish you a mery Chistmas
The fact that he claims he shot 5 jets in 30 seconds in itself shows he is telling truth.....why else would a pilot claim to shoot 5 jets in 30 seconds if it wasnt true.....
@vinceely2906 or it could be just as how he described.........indian pilots are known to be un professional...and indian story is bs aswell...its prett coincidental that both jets had same malfunction on the same mission .....WOW😂😂
if you estimate the time taken to maneuver a F-86E Sabre air superiority fighter & achieve a convincing fire position shooting down your adversary . . . you'll observe that shooting down five enemy jets in less than a minute is near impossible . . . unless your F-86E airframe can endure & sustain in excess of 12gs or more . . . that too in sustained flight, maneuvering through extreme angle-of-attack AOA repeatedly . . .
I don't know how you do it. Having attempted to use Pakistani and Indian sources for research on military subjects decades ago, I was quickly put off by all their inflated and doubtful claims. One of my professors did his PhD using these sources and he said it was painful! So congratulations on your rational analysis 👍
As showtime113 alluded, it is quite plausible that the two hunters that Alam damaged could have been viewed by him as destroyed. It’s a plausible view. Either way Alam was a great fighter pilot!
This air battle was a clear win for the Pakistan Air Force as the Indians did not shoot any Pakistani jets down and they themselves admitted losing at least 3 hunters (maybe more). Well done showtime112.
No he did not.. I'm obviously not from the region but I can say with 99.99999 percent probability that he did not shoot down that many aircraft in such a time frame.. you would need to straff an airfield to take out that many aircraft
I haven't read much about the 5 gun jet kills record by Alam in 65' just his own own account and Gen chuck Yeager's account who loved the F86. Alam as you say went after the mysteres who were exiting after the attacking the air field,he mentions the 1st sidewinder missing and the 2second overshooting the Indian jet as he pulled up due to electricity lines in his way he says he over shot the jet & the pilot had ejeccted he was then vectored towards a flight of hunters exiting after attcking Sargodha he met them over the chenab a river and the flight all banked left as you say andit " in time it takes you to read this sentence Alam had shot down 4 hunters . Now if two were damaged and their wreckage fell a little far afield they would still be considered his kills. Yeagar is an all American hero and I for one have no reason to trash his claim that he inv alam's claim after the war & found no reason to blame him. Further he is credited with the 5 kills in 33 seconds or so No independent investigotor/ writer has called it controversial except you. As for the indians you win some you loose some
That’s an biased statement because the Indian armoured column got decimated on the Lahore front by Sajjad Haider of 19th squadron, one of the contributors to this video.
@@Dankseid-o1uand I was referring to the Indian attack on Lahore which was a day before on 6th Sep. Gibraltar was a stalemate because the india were unable to push the Pakistanis all the way back to the CFL. But your right Gibraltar was not a success, agreed.
Indo pakistani wars were controversial but in the 1965 pakistani pilots aquire very well to their job with their Sabres and Pakistan .in 1971 the Mig 21 s of indian air force will turn the tide
Not really because in the 1971 the Pakistan wins the contest with the Indian Air Force. I say this because even Indian historians like Ravi Rikhye admit that Pakistani pilot training is actually better than the Indian Air Force.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Play War Thunder now with my link, and get a massive, free bonus pack including vehicles, boosters and more on PC and consoles: playwt.link/showtime112
As a neutral myself I thought that was a very fair presentation of all sides involved .... also no side "lost face" all did their duty, in the fortunes of war some fall but none failed!
Thank you for this comment! It's a fair conclusion.
A little anecdote about Air Cdre Alam narrated by Air Cdre Jamal Hossain:
The great M M Alam was comparing the combat effectiveness of F-86 and Hunter aircraft. This was after the 1965 Pak-India war during which, while flying in his F-86, he had shot down a fair number of Indian Hunters.
"F-86 is much superior to the Hunter. It is superb. Great. The F-86 will always shoot down the Hunter. Always."
"Sir, what if you were flying the Hunter against the F-86 in combat?"
"Of course I would shoot the F-86 easily. It is no match to the Hunter."
Great video as always btw, especially on such a tricky topic.
Thanks for sharing the anecdote and for liking the video!
I’ve seen this particular video long ago. Cocky af 😅
I met M M Alam twice. Once when i went for a haircut and the other time when I visited the PAF Faisal hospital. That was a few years before his death. He was highly respected by people from all walks of life. He never married. He was given a permanent VIP room in Officers Mess with all facilities, messing and a personal servant free of cost till the end of his life. His post retirement photos with a group of senior serving squadron officers hang proudly in many bases. He was a very devout man and was not afraid to speak boldly and openly what he believed was right. He breathed his last in 2013 and is burried in PAF Masroor Karachi.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Very well researched! Great video and thank you for your work!
I appreciate your support!
Yes man, waiting for that video for quite a time bro
I'd lie if I said there weren't any requests for it .... 😁
@@showtime112 u defo wud
Interesting how you try to add light to those events! Merry Christmas mate.
Likewise! Thank you for being around!
Excellent video, well researched.
I appreciate your positive comment!
Irrespective of exactly how many Indian jets M Alam shot down it is a commonly acknowledged view that he was the best fighter pilot in the India Pakistani wars.
Well done showtime112 for a nice video!
Thanks! That's the point Sajad Haider makes, even if you apply the strictest criteria, he still had four victories. Only Saiful Azam had the same score (although mostly in another conflict).
Excellent video with a cross-section of expert analysis. I appreciated the way - to avoid detractors - you included 2 Pakistani sources to counteract Alam's claims.
Thank you for the comment! It's interesting to have objective sources from the country of the claimant. Usually it's just 'one side says this, the other side says that'.
@@showtime112 Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm British but my parents are from Bangladesh - so I always open the popcorn to watch the fireworks in the comments section when you publish a India/Pakistan video. Keep up the great work.
Another great video. I don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems like those 6, .50 cal machine guns on the F-86 were more lethal against the Hunter than on the Mig-15. Perhaps the Hunters systems were more complex and more vulnerable to a few hits vs the Mig. I can hardly get over how good these graphics are.
Thanks! Regarding the graphics, the original video looks much better as the YT compression reduces quality of dark scenes quite significantly.
Nice video, the fact that even Tufail and Haider register serious disagreements with the 5 in 30 seconds story and present more modest and realistic scenarios should be the definitive proof that the original claim is bogus wartime myth-making.
Thank you for the comment! All five kills are not very likely, but it was still a very successful mission. Two other kills prove that this wasn't just a fluke.
Amazing video. The Indo-Pakistani air war needs more coverage, and your video is an excellent contribution.
Great work! 😊
Thanks, Chups!
As usual, an unbiased account of the events. Bravo Showtime 112!
There are many contested claims and incidents in the history of aerial warfare. Perhaps the most debated ones are about (1) Who shot down the Red Baron? (2) M.M. Alam - Did he or didn't he?
Whatever anyone may say, he certainly was a gifted pilot and didn't deserve the ignominy which was heaped upon him by the PAF. They practically turfed him out after claiming that he was illiterate.
Now, that is a real shame.
I appreciate your comment! I also think Alam was a talented fighter pilot who found himself in a difficult situation there was no easy way out of.
Thanks for video.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Another great video! It should be noted that the Pakistani Sabres were Canadair built Mk6s with the much more powerful Orenda 14 engine. Quite superior to the J47 powered F86 E/F.
Speeds were very similar to the Indian Hunter Mk56 down low and at altitude however the Hunter had a higher rate of climb and 30mm cannon vs. the 0.5 machine guns of the F86.
The MK6 Sabre will out roll and out turn the Hunter. The Hunter will out zoom the Sabre.
Again, strength and weaknesses to each with the more skilled and savvy pilot, understanding relative strengths and weakness, usually coming out on top.
Thanks for the comment! I believe the Sabres used in 1965 were original, American ones. Pakistan later acquired some ex-German, Canadair Sabres which were used in 1971. However, I use Canadair Sabre here because in WT, they can carry missiles 😁
i can't escape the snail
Didn't Franz von Werra the only Luftwaffe pilot to escape British captivity in WW2, claim he came upon a silly amount of fighters circling to land and shot them all down?
There were a bunch of claims on a single mission but I don't think they took place in such a short time.
even showtime112 can not escape the snail.
Which snail?
@traviswalker8933 it's a long meme in war thunder
He sponsored the company, gaijin. Gaijin has the logo of a snail and is greedy for money so everyone calls it snail and that it would get you if you don't pay.
Well, I use WT to produce many of the videos anyway so why not make them pay for it? 😁
@showtime112 beware of the snail. It can show up to you house with a kv1 if it like
Air to air missile in 1965 shows, pakistan was well supported by US
It was. But after this war, things started to change.
And India was supported by Britain and Russia. The Indians had migs which the Pakistanis destroyed on the ground.
@@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu still one sided reply.. In 1965 India and Soviet relations were not as close as the US and Pakistan had. The biggest problem with nations like pakistan, Iran, north Korea, Iraq is that you guys always behave Big mouth over confidence and never lose any war with 0 casualties like video games that is why nobody trusts on 30 seconds
Good show and i'll keep watching!😉
I'm happy to hear it, thank you!
6:04 War Thumoer ad ends, back to F-86 vs. Hawker Hunter.
Let's check it out.
Feel free 😁
Thanks!
Thanks once again!
Very good presentation. We shouldn't forget that during many wars, propaganda is an extra weapon.
Thank you very much! That's why it takes years, or even decades to properly assess such events.
Another great vid 112, excellent job, svaka ti čast...
I think your assessment is accurate as can be. The fog of war and propaganda can make for a toxic cocktail.
I appreciate your feedback, thank you!
here i am accusing you to be biased towards; or paid by
I hope YT algorithm appreciates your engagement 😁
Great work
Hvala!
5 kills in 30 seconds, I think it's BS. I think it's unlikely that the Indian AF was that incompetent. Frankly the timeframe doesn't work.
They all flew in same direction and don’t break. He picked em off from the last to the leading
Four kills, the first claim happened a minute or two earlier. Also, 30 seconds might not be entirely accurate either. It could have easily been 50 or 60. Hard to judge exact time under such circumstances.
Personnaly, the only thing that I don't understand in this strory is why nobody bothered checking the gun cam images, because it could have resolved most of the problem and avoid useless controversies. Aside from that, this is a well made video as allways, and I wish you a mery Chistmas
Myth or not? Heard some différent opinions 🤔. Shift on TV now😊
The fact that he claims he shot 5 jets in 30 seconds in itself shows he is telling truth.....why else would a pilot claim to shoot 5 jets in 30 seconds if it wasnt true.....
What?
It could be a 'big lie'? Can't remember who invented it though? I do remember his facial hair though ▪
@vinceely2906 or it could be just as how he described.........indian pilots are known to be un professional...and indian story is bs aswell...its prett coincidental that both jets had same malfunction on the same mission .....WOW😂😂
if you estimate the time taken to maneuver a F-86E Sabre air superiority fighter & achieve a convincing fire position shooting down your adversary . . . you'll observe that shooting down five enemy jets in less than a minute is near impossible . . . unless your F-86E airframe can endure & sustain in excess of 12gs or more . . . that too in sustained flight, maneuvering through extreme angle-of-attack AOA repeatedly . . .
...and the first choice is (drumroll, opens the envelope) SHOWTIME 112!!!! (standing ovation)
Thank you for making this video.
MM ALAM is form my city Karachi as well as Sarfaraz Rafiqui.
❤
Hvala opet!
I don't know how you do it. Having attempted to use Pakistani and Indian sources for research on military subjects decades ago, I was quickly put off by all their inflated and doubtful claims. One of my professors did his PhD using these sources and he said it was painful! So congratulations on your rational analysis 👍
As showtime113 alluded, it is quite plausible that the two hunters that Alam damaged could have been viewed by him as destroyed. It’s a plausible view. Either way Alam was a great fighter pilot!
He sure did!
This air battle was a clear win for the Pakistan Air Force as the Indians did not shoot any Pakistani jets down and they themselves admitted losing at least 3 hunters (maybe more).
Well done showtime112.
Thank you for the comment, I'm glad you appreciate the content.
The Hunter was the hunted. Sad that people freak out about an unbiased video, thanks!
*At the same time I do admit that I haven't read enough about the incident because I had no reason to doubt the claim as controversial
No he did not.. I'm obviously not from the region but I can say with 99.99999 percent probability that he did not shoot down that many aircraft in such a time frame.. you would need to straff an airfield to take out that many aircraft
👍👍👍
Thank you for the comment!
I haven't read much about the 5 gun jet kills record by Alam in 65' just his own own account and Gen chuck Yeager's account who loved the F86. Alam as you say went after the mysteres who were exiting after the attacking the air field,he mentions the 1st sidewinder missing and the 2second overshooting the Indian jet as he pulled up due to electricity lines in his way he says he over shot the jet & the pilot had ejeccted he was then vectored towards a flight of hunters exiting after attcking Sargodha he met them over the chenab a river and the flight all banked left as you say andit " in time it takes you to read this sentence Alam had shot down 4 hunters . Now if two were damaged and their wreckage fell a little far afield they would still be considered his kills. Yeagar is an all American hero and I for one have no reason to trash his claim that he inv alam's claim after the war & found no reason to blame him. Further he is credited with the 5 kills in 33 seconds or so No independent investigotor/ writer has called it controversial except you. As for the indians you win some you loose some
I am really really angry about this video not saying how awesome my nation is. I will go and watch one of the Falklands videos instead.
Maybe those videos will be the ones for you 😁😁
If true perhaps the only decent feat they accomplished.
They had to make up for something after the their special forces got routed by indian cops.
That’s an biased statement because the Indian armoured column got decimated on the Lahore front by Sajjad Haider of 19th squadron, one of the contributors to this video.
@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu I speak of operation Gibraltar my friend.
And unlike the event In Spain, this was a catastrophic defeat for the attackers.
@@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu decimated lol
@@Dankseid-o1uand I was referring to the Indian attack on Lahore which was a day before on 6th Sep. Gibraltar was a stalemate because the india were unable to push the Pakistanis all the way back to the CFL. But your right Gibraltar was not a success, agreed.
@@abhilashyadav2274yes decimated read sajjad haider
Name is ALAM
Indo pakistani wars were controversial but in the 1965 pakistani pilots aquire very well to their job with their Sabres and Pakistan .in 1971 the Mig 21 s of indian air force will turn the tide
Not really because in the 1971 the Pakistan wins the contest with the Indian Air Force. I say this because even Indian historians like Ravi Rikhye admit that Pakistani pilot training is actually better than the Indian Air Force.
@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu yes the pakistani piots were well trained
The Fog of War !?
Apparently. It's a bit like archeology, you dig up the pieces and imagine the picture in your head :)