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It is a made up story, it is a common question where the so-called ace pilot was in the 1971 war which happened in a few years. This is bull shit made by Pakistanis like they made a fairy tale about the battle of chawinda .
Nobody gives a fkkk if you think alam never lied.... You can call him dad too.... There is no proof he did shoot any planes.... Word of mouth don't matter
I met M M Alam twice. Once when i went for a haircut and the other time when I visited the PAF Faisal hospital. That was a few years before his death. He was highly respected by people from all walks of life. He never married. He was given a permanent VIP room in Officers Mess with all facilities, messing and a personal servant free of cost till the end of his life. His post retirement photos with a group of senior serving squadron officers hang proudly in many bases. He was a very devout man and was not afraid to speak boldly and openly what he believed was right. He breathed his last in 2013 and is buried in PAF Masroor Karachi.
Over estimated at best. Its a habit of paf pilots. Not that MM alam did not perform but paf has exgragerated its claims to a count almost double in 71 war. Call it professiolism if you want.
Little Dragon, Peanut Alam was a mild mannered gentleman. Exceptionally valiant and patriotic air warrior. On the ground he was a down to earth human and a religious devout. Also, he was a teetotaller and stayed away from alcohol that his other GD (P) fellow officers relished in those days pretending to be “Gora Sahibs.”
As a neutral myself I thought that was a very fair presentation of all sides involved .... also no side "lost face" all did their duty, in the fortunes of war some fall but none failed!
I first read of Alam's fight with the Hunters years ago in a British aviation magazine. I believe your video is a very balanced overall account of what happened. Your video also highlights the confusion of an aerial dogfight involving many aircraft. The speed of jet fighters also add to the muddle. Well done! Thank you!
You made an Honest review I highly appreciate that coming from Pakistan. People with Rationality will not Comment against it. You should not worry about emotional people, they are everywhere and they can say whatever they want but we all need to accept the truth.
A little anecdote about Air Cdre Alam narrated by Air Cdre Jamal Hossain: The great M M Alam was comparing the combat effectiveness of F-86 and Hunter aircraft. This was after the 1965 Pak-India war during which, while flying in his F-86, he had shot down a fair number of Indian Hunters. "F-86 is much superior to the Hunter. It is superb. Great. The F-86 will always shoot down the Hunter. Always." "Sir, what if you were flying the Hunter against the F-86 in combat?" "Of course I would shoot the F-86 easily. It is no match to the Hunter." Great video as always btw, especially on such a tricky topic.
@slimkhalifadogg the hunter was faster, had better climb rate, theoretically it could turn better in comparison with the F-86. Now, the indians fighting on that day never used the vertical plane superiority of the hunter, were heavily loaded with external ordinance and were operating at the extreme of their range. Against a PAF strike on an IAF airbase two out of 3 attacking sabres were shot down because they tried to outclimb the hunters they were engaging and the sabres were at the extreme of their operational range just like the hunters that fought intercepting MM Alam on the day under discussion. Sabre's main superiority was in it's defensive role and that it carried heat seeking missiles. While true that the hunter had a better turn rate than the sabre but since the sabres had an altitude advantage so the turn rate doesn't make a big difference if an intercepting aircraft has an altitude advantage and comes down in a diving turn.
Excellent video with a cross-section of expert analysis. I appreciated the way - to avoid detractors - you included 2 Pakistani sources to counteract Alam's claims.
Thank you for the comment! It's interesting to have objective sources from the country of the claimant. Usually it's just 'one side says this, the other side says that'.
@@showtime112 Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm British but my parents are from Bangladesh - so I always open the popcorn to watch the fireworks in the comments section when you publish a India/Pakistan video. Keep up the great work.
Nice video, the fact that even Tufail and Haider register serious disagreements with the 5 in 30 seconds story and present more modest and realistic scenarios should be the definitive proof that the original claim is bogus wartime myth-making.
Thank you for the comment! All five kills are not very likely, but it was still a very successful mission. Two other kills prove that this wasn't just a fluke.
another great video. in depth unbiased analysis of two sides who are at war with each other on all fronts of media is always difficult ...season greetings🎀 and i wish you a prosperous new year. 🎉
@@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu still one sided reply.. In 1965 India and Soviet relations were not as close as the US and Pakistan had. The biggest problem with nations like pakistan, Iran, north Korea, Iraq is that you guys always behave Big mouth over confidence and never lose any war with 0 casualties like video games that is why nobody trusts on 30 seconds
Indian migs had hardly arrived in 65 . This was because the US denied sabres to india . Migs came in their own in 71 when they blew PAF out of skies. ..
I am inclined to believe Tufail in that M.M Alam ended up fighting two different formations without realizing it. Although I disagree with him about the Sidewinder proxy fuse leading to a kill. A good and fair look at this remarkable day in air combat.
Thank you for yet another comment! These air combats really tend to become confusing and putting pieces together can get tricky. That's why there's so much disagreement.
Thank you this video, and the honest representation given to both sides. I'm not Indian or Pakistani, but have worked with a lot of them. If you raise the story of M.M. Alam, you find emotions from both sides of the spectrum - I hope that videos like this help in elaborating the facts and not the emotions.
Another great video! It should be noted that the Pakistani Sabres were Canadair built Mk6s with the much more powerful Orenda 14 engine. Quite superior to the J47 powered F86 E/F. Speeds were very similar to the Indian Hunter Mk56 down low and at altitude however the Hunter had a higher rate of climb and 30mm cannon vs. the 0.5 machine guns of the F86. The MK6 Sabre will out roll and out turn the Hunter. The Hunter will out zoom the Sabre. Again, strength and weaknesses to each with the more skilled and savvy pilot, understanding relative strengths and weakness, usually coming out on top.
Thanks for the comment! I believe the Sabres used in 1965 were original, American ones. Pakistan later acquired some ex-German, Canadair Sabres which were used in 1971. However, I use Canadair Sabre here because in WT, they can carry missiles 😁
@@showtime112 I believe you are correct. The PAF didn't receive the Mk6 Sabres until early 1966, so after this conflict was over. They called them F86Es in their service which adds to the confusion. They did perform more work in the later 1971 conflict where they faced even tougher opponents. My father flew RCAF MK6s in Europe in the mid 1950s with 430 squadron. Was his favorite aircraft of all time and master of the skies there until the F100 started showing up in numbers with the USAF.
I love your videos, and I think you should make more content on the Pakistan-India wars. It's a fascinating and serious topic that I feel not many people know much about, especially the aerial battles that took place. Additionally, I recommend creating a video about the most recent air battle between the Pakistani Air Force and the Indian Air Force in 2019. Why not cover that as well? Keep up the hard work! Also, I believe M. M. Alam scored at least 6-8 air-to-air kills, which automatically makes him an ace. That alone is something for Pakistanis to celebrate.
Another great video. I don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems like those 6, .50 cal machine guns on the F-86 were more lethal against the Hunter than on the Mig-15. Perhaps the Hunters systems were more complex and more vulnerable to a few hits vs the Mig. I can hardly get over how good these graphics are.
As usual, an unbiased account of the events. Bravo Showtime 112! There are many contested claims and incidents in the history of aerial warfare. Perhaps the most debated ones are about (1) Who shot down the Red Baron? (2) M.M. Alam - Did he or didn't he? Whatever anyone may say, he certainly was a gifted pilot and didn't deserve the ignominy which was heaped upon him by the PAF. They practically turfed him out after claiming that he was illiterate. Now, that is a real shame.
Thank for your time in presenting every week an interesting chapter of aerial warfare. I cant ever say something bad about your research. Thanks Professor
Irrespective of exactly how many Indian jets M Alam shot down it is a commonly acknowledged view that he was the best fighter pilot in the India Pakistani wars. Well done showtime112 for a nice video!
Thanks! That's the point Sajad Haider makes, even if you apply the strictest criteria, he still had four victories. Only Saiful Azam had the same score (although mostly in another conflict).
Brilliant . . Absolutely Brilliant narration of this most successful Dogfight of the entire Indo-Pak War of 1965 . . To be fair, I ll credit Alam for 05 Kills and 03 Damage for the Dogfights he did on 06th, 07th and 16th Sep, 1965 . . And your video narration of this combat is the Best I ve ever seen and heard in all my years of reading or watching military history . . As a gift from my side, If you ever visit Pakistan, I,ll sponser your 03 days stay at a Hotel and sight seeing of Alam's and my city, the Karachi . . 😘
Personnaly, the only thing that I don't understand in this strory is why nobody bothered checking the gun cam images, because it could have resolved most of the problem and avoid useless controversies. Aside from that, this is a well made video as allways, and I wish you a mery Chistmas
Thanks for your hard work and this video. No one can accuse of you of being biased, as you present the alternative theories very well. I'm an enthusiast of aviation history, but my knowledge of the Indo-Pakistani War is very poor. You have inspired me to research this conflict more seriously.
Didn't Franz von Werra the only Luftwaffe pilot to escape British captivity in WW2, claim he came upon a silly amount of fighters circling to land and shot them all down?
Another masterpiece by Showtime 112. well done sir! dissecting the war chest thumping by both sides and try to separate the facts in India Pakistan conflict is no easy task.
@traviswalker8933 it's a long meme in war thunder He sponsored the company, gaijin. Gaijin has the logo of a snail and is greedy for money so everyone calls it snail and that it would get you if you don't pay.
Four kills, the first claim happened a minute or two earlier. Also, 30 seconds might not be entirely accurate either. It could have easily been 50 or 60. Hard to judge exact time under such circumstances.
@@snd9826 unfortunately Indians don’t agree with this sentiment and during their surgical strike, kept bragging and didn’t believe me when I told them pakistanis shot down an Indian. Until ofc the next day when they saw with their own eyes
You paid zero attention to what was said at the start of the video. Nobody cares about your personal opinion. Delete the post or be reported.@@snd9826
Excellent video and providing input from all sides and the amount of research done makes for a quality video! Clearly Alam did not shoot down 9 or 7 Hunters in all as claimed by some Pakistani sources. The only controversy is did he shoot down 4 or 5. It seems Kaiser Tufail's account is probably the most accurate. The first Hunter Alam shot down on the 7th of Sept is contested but common sense dictates it should not be! It would take an astonishing amount of coincidence for the Hunter to develop a fuel-line problem at around the same time as Alam releases his 2nd side-winder. I believe Tufail correctly credits Alam for this kill making him the only ace in the sub-continent.
Nice video. Speaking of remarkable one sortie kill streaks, have you considered a video on Giora Epstiens claims? A legend no doubt, but with 17 overall invluding 2 sorties with 4 kills each within 48 hrs...would be intresting to look into.
Thank you for the comment. I'll definitely cover Epstein in the future. For now, I'm doing a series on the 1956 Arab-Israeli War but once that's complete, I might cover the more recent battles.
Excellent video, as usual. Your respect to both sides is really appreciated. You are reaching an excellence level in your historical reenactment. Great! (Hunter is more beautiful, but Sabre is the best).
My father Captain C.J. (Hank) HENRY, RCAF, recounted stories about training the Pakistan pilots on Canadian Sabres at Operational Training Unit, CFB Chatham , Canada in the 1950s. They were trained by the best.
In aerial warfare and dogfights back in the 1960’s the technology was not as developed. Ground air defence and radars were primitive then. The air warriors relied more on their battle skills rather than machines and ordnance. They were bitter adversaries and rapidly boasted of their scores mostly inflating them. The propaganda war took them to yet another altitude.
It is important to notice, war is chaotic, and in the stressful heat of battle, people often mistake things with other things, to confirm any event, a lot of cross referencing needs to be done between the evidence, when if any ever exists they are often declassified decades later, if ever, cause again, people may end up in places they are supposed not to be at, or do things they shouldn't have, then countries just don't admit it ever happened, or make cover up stories... it's not easy to conclude a solid result in these events...
Quite right. Politics often get in the way of getting to the bottom of things. And memories of human beings are not necessarily the most precise instruments 😁
Great video. Now the videos on the famous Wagah-Atari strike on Indian formation and strike on Pathankot by Wing Commander Syed Sajjad Haider are due at your end. Sajjad Haider was perhaps the only legendary commander of PAF who led massive strikes against the enemy and never lost a single jet in them.
Thank you! This particular episode was covered in a Patreon exclusive video on the channel. Perhaps someday I'll remake it for general audience if better assets become available.
I'm curious about you have any information about Yugoslavian war less known events about military aviation? Like the Serbian MiG-21, which was chased(?) by the Croatian air defense through the Hungarian border and it's released its two BL-755 British made cluster ammunition over the Hungarian border-town, Barcs? The bomblets fell onto the outskirt of the town, into a cementery and onto some local houses. No human injuries happened, only a dog were killed. The media than said that the MiG tried to get speed and altitude and got rid off its payload to reduce weight, so it was not an purposeful attack against Hungarian "targets", only a unfortunate event.
I'm afraid I don't have much more on that incident other than the general info you described. The aerial component of the wars in former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s haven't been that well researched. (or so it seems to me)
As showtime113 alluded, it is quite plausible that the two hunters that Alam damaged could have been viewed by him as destroyed. It’s a plausible view. Either way Alam was a great fighter pilot!
I thought it was a well balanced explanation and illustration of the events in question. I guess the two facts that provide some of the evidence are, the number of Hunter crash sites, which if correct show the true numbers and secondly, the lack of gun camera film to support the claims. Good video.
I don't know how you do it. Having attempted to use Pakistani and Indian sources for research on military subjects decades ago, I was quickly put off by all their inflated and doubtful claims. One of my professors did his PhD using these sources and he said it was painful! So congratulations on your rational analysis 👍
You just have to accept it as a fact. Sides disagree about many such battles and it's really not limited to Indo-Pakistani wars. Arab-Israeli wars are not too different in many aspects and even in Vietnam, you can find many inconsistencies when you compare sources from two sides. Good thing is that it gives me great pleasure to untangle confused stories such as this one :)
No he did not.. I'm obviously not from the region but I can say with 99.99999 percent probability that he did not shoot down that many aircraft in such a time frame.. you would need to straff an airfield to take out that many aircraft
Somehow i believe that he didn't able to shoot the 5 aircrafts in a matter of only 30 sec really hard to believe the plane you try to hunt also makes turns takes evasive manuevers you have to chase an aircraft sometimes quite long he could had scored allmost 7 air to air kills like an ace but not that 5 in less than a minute i am from Pakistan he is a war hero to us an ace fighter pilot but 30 seconds story looks to me a very over exaggerated too much far fetched some fabricated narrative
The '30 seconds' was probably closer to a minute as I don't think anybody used a stopwatch here and estimating time in combat can be rather inaccurate.
This air battle was a clear win for the Pakistan Air Force as the Indians did not shoot any Pakistani jets down and they themselves admitted losing at least 3 hunters (maybe more). Well done showtime112.
i am a pakistani and an air war enthusiast. there are sevral aspects to this air battle. no.1 that the indians were fighting at extreme range and therefore could not mix with the defending PAF interceptors. no.2 that the mission priorities of the Indian pilots was ground attack and while it is true that there was an escort element among the Indian fighters, the defending PAF interceptors had the upper hand in the way that endurance was'nt thier problem, they were guided by GCI and that the sabre had better sustained turn rate. even though most of kills were gun kills but the indians were conscious about the missle armament of of the PAF interceptors and the indians were also conscious of the presence of PAF F-104s' as top cover which though not as meneuverable and either the sabre or the hunter, had an impression due to which the indian pilots called it "Badmash". over all the indian pilots had a very non-aggresive attitude and that the PAF pilots were able to kill the hunters in a turning dogfight because the hunter tended to loose speed in a sustained turning dogfight.
Also, i think another Possiblility is that the PAF pilot used his missle to shoot one down and got the other by surprise. Probably shooting their engine or exhaust. Or it's a litlle bit exaggerated and took a lil bit longer then 30 secs
The time is probably exaggerated as it's hard to measure exactly under such stress. Recently, I did a video about two Sea Harrier pilots shooting down three Argentine Daggers and one of the British pilots said 'we shot down three Daggers in five seconds'. It really couldn't have been that quick, it must have been closer to 30.
if you estimate the time taken to maneuver a F-86E Sabre air superiority fighter & achieve a convincing fire position shooting down your adversary . . . you'll observe that shooting down five enemy jets in less than a minute is near impossible . . . unless your F-86E airframe can endure & sustain in excess of 12gs or more . . . that too in sustained flight, maneuvering through extreme angle-of-attack AOA repeatedly . . .
In fact as a Pakistani I've always maintained given that I read the PAF's own account of this after the battle was that this pilot MM Alam had taken out three Indian planes in about 40 seconds, and it was possible because they had presented a very easy target. So later this officer took out another Indian aircraft, and then another. The last Indian plane limped back to his country. I met MM myself. What a man even at that age. He said to me this that "some of them (Indian pilots) were very proficient, but the ones that I got to my luck that day were all idiots" (sorry for that word). So in all, five tally, in like give or take 5 minutes, one of the aircraft made it back to India. Combined kills for MM Alam painted in Indian flag on his favourite f-86 Saber were nine, seven confirmed two probables, one of which was from the five he battled that day. I've always corrected Pakistanis about this five planes in 30 seconds account or the JF-17 shotdown to Indian planes on February 27th 2019, both mines having been taken out by two different f-16s with their aim 120c air to air ordinance.
I thought the Hunter outclassed the Sabre. Seems Alan was a. Excellent pilot, would he have been better utilised flying a F-104? A great video; I agree with your and Haider’s assessment. The guy is still a hero!
The Sabre is ideal for a prolonged, high-G turn like the one in which Alam destroyed at least 2x Hunter. The F-104 was designed primarily as a high speed, fast climbing interceptor; it was the antithesis of a dog-fighter and was notoriously unmanoeuvrable. (In this regard it struggled to be competitive in exercises versus its contemporary US rival, the F-106.) Hence the Starfighter was used most successfully against other fighters in diving boom & zoom passes, or in pursuing enemy aircraft that were RTB.
Thank you for the feedback! Sabre is not entirely inferior to the F-104. The latter aircraft had very poor maneuverability while the Sabre really excelled in low-level, turning fights.
*M M Alam's own commanding officer refused to accept his ridiculous claim. Bear in mind in those days missile auto lock did not exist Once a lock was obtained on an enemy plane & missile fired, the "lock" had to manually kept by the the missile firing plane's pilot. This makes the claim even more ridiculous.* *No international body of "pilot kills" has accepted this claim.*
AIM-9B is an infra-red homing missile and as such, it's 'fire and forget'. It doesn't require any 'manual lock' or some kind of pilot input once it leaves the launch rail. In fact, the pilot can't influence it in any way after it's launched. Also, I don't think there's such a thing as 'international body of pilot kills'.
Generally, the latter but I think that's primarily because it is very hard to confirm that an enemy airplane that returns to base is written off. If an airplane is damaged by an enemy fighter and it limps back to base but then crash-lands or is considered beyond repair, it should be a kill if you ask me.
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Not really. Indian pilots had the disadvantage of fighting at the limit of fuel endurance and the couldn't maneuver too much. Alam was near his home base and could afford to push to the limit. Perhaps Sabre was somewhat better in a turn but I don't think that really decided the outcome here.
The fact that he claims he shot 5 jets in 30 seconds in itself shows he is telling truth.....why else would a pilot claim to shoot 5 jets in 30 seconds if it wasnt true.....
@vinceely2906 or it could be just as how he described.........indian pilots are known to be un professional...and indian story is bs aswell...its prett coincidental that both jets had same malfunction on the same mission .....WOW😂😂
@@sobant4795really? And this is why I replied to another guy asking for more videos that we should not have a comments section on these videos. It just becomes a cesspit of flame wars and idiots like you making blanket statements about an adversary. Even if Alam shot down 5 as he says, it doesn't mean the Indian pilots were unprofessional. They did kill a lot of your beloved Sabres with a fighter that was considered one of the worst in the world.
@@sobant4795 or else your pakistan mm alan is lying about its fake story he shot down 5 jet in 30 seconds It's impossible for old and modern aircraft to shoot down 5 jets in 30 seconds because it's taken time to Chase aircraft then aim and lock the target then shoot the missile and wait for it if the missile has hit or not confirm it then move to next target then again Chase them Pakistan are experts in Lying like they won the 1965 war or shot down 5 jets in 30 sec 😂 hypersonic jet technology loliwood stories
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It is a made up story, it is a common question where the so-called ace pilot was in the 1971 war which happened in a few years. This is bull shit made by Pakistanis like they made a fairy tale about the battle of chawinda .
nice video i waiting the second part of Romanian Air force in Soviet Union
Nobody gives a fkkk if you think alam never lied.... You can call him dad too.... There is no proof he did shoot any planes.... Word of mouth don't matter
I met M M Alam twice. Once when i went for a haircut and the other time when I visited the PAF Faisal hospital. That was a few years before his death. He was highly respected by people from all walks of life. He never married. He was given a permanent VIP room in Officers Mess with all facilities, messing and a personal servant free of cost till the end of his life. His post retirement photos with a group of senior serving squadron officers hang proudly in many bases. He was a very devout man and was not afraid to speak boldly and openly what he believed was right. He breathed his last in 2013 and is buried in PAF Masroor Karachi.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
RIP to a top knotch fighter pilot. And to all those young men who served their respective nations.
Over estimated at best. Its a habit of paf pilots. Not that MM alam did not perform but paf has exgragerated its claims to a count almost double in 71 war. Call it professiolism if you want.
@@colsanjaybajpai5747 just like IAF's exaggerated claim of F16 shoot down?
Little Dragon, Peanut Alam was a mild mannered gentleman. Exceptionally valiant and patriotic air warrior. On the ground he was a down to earth human and a religious devout. Also, he was a teetotaller and stayed away from alcohol that his other GD (P) fellow officers relished in those days pretending to be “Gora Sahibs.”
As a neutral myself I thought that was a very fair presentation of all sides involved .... also no side "lost face" all did their duty, in the fortunes of war some fall but none failed!
Thank you for this comment! It's a fair conclusion.
I first read of Alam's fight with the Hunters years ago in a British aviation magazine. I believe your video is a very balanced overall account of what happened. Your video also highlights the confusion of an aerial dogfight involving many aircraft. The speed of jet fighters also add to the muddle.
Well done! Thank you!
I appreciate this, thank you!
The most probable number for Alam´s victories is three.....this alone is very impressive for a single combat!!!!
Thanks for the feedback! Three kills in a single sortie is impressive by any standards.
GREAT VIDEO ¡¡¡¡¡ Congratulations for your hard work and research. Keeping aviation history alive. Thanks and greetings from Mexico City.
Greetings to you as well! I hope I visit your country someday, my wife is really into that part of the world.
You made an Honest review I highly appreciate that coming from Pakistan. People with Rationality will not Comment against it. You should not worry about emotional people, they are everywhere and they can say whatever they want but we all need to accept the truth.
A little anecdote about Air Cdre Alam narrated by Air Cdre Jamal Hossain:
The great M M Alam was comparing the combat effectiveness of F-86 and Hunter aircraft. This was after the 1965 Pak-India war during which, while flying in his F-86, he had shot down a fair number of Indian Hunters.
"F-86 is much superior to the Hunter. It is superb. Great. The F-86 will always shoot down the Hunter. Always."
"Sir, what if you were flying the Hunter against the F-86 in combat?"
"Of course I would shoot the F-86 easily. It is no match to the Hunter."
Great video as always btw, especially on such a tricky topic.
Thanks for sharing the anecdote and for liking the video!
I’ve seen this particular video long ago. Cocky af 😅
@slimkhalifadogg the hunter was faster, had better climb rate, theoretically it could turn better in comparison with the F-86. Now, the indians fighting on that day never used the vertical plane superiority of the hunter, were heavily loaded with external ordinance and were operating at the extreme of their range. Against a PAF strike on an IAF airbase two out of 3 attacking sabres were shot down because they tried to outclimb the hunters they were engaging and the sabres were at the extreme of their operational range just like the hunters that fought intercepting MM Alam on the day under discussion. Sabre's main superiority was in it's defensive role and that it carried heat seeking missiles. While true that the hunter had a better turn rate than the sabre but since the sabres had an altitude advantage so the turn rate doesn't make a big difference if an intercepting aircraft has an altitude advantage and comes down in a diving turn.
@@snd9826 that pilot was British not Indian
The Hunter was the hunted. Sad that people freak out about an unbiased video, thanks!
Thank you for watching. I guess not everyone agrees on the definition of 'unbiased' 😁
Interesting how you try to add light to those events! Merry Christmas mate.
Likewise! Thank you for being around!
Another great vid 112, excellent job, svaka ti čast...
Zahvaljujem na podršci!
Excellent video with a cross-section of expert analysis. I appreciated the way - to avoid detractors - you included 2 Pakistani sources to counteract Alam's claims.
Thank you for the comment! It's interesting to have objective sources from the country of the claimant. Usually it's just 'one side says this, the other side says that'.
@@showtime112 Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm British but my parents are from Bangladesh - so I always open the popcorn to watch the fireworks in the comments section when you publish a India/Pakistan video. Keep up the great work.
Nice video, the fact that even Tufail and Haider register serious disagreements with the 5 in 30 seconds story and present more modest and realistic scenarios should be the definitive proof that the original claim is bogus wartime myth-making.
Thank you for the comment! All five kills are not very likely, but it was still a very successful mission. Two other kills prove that this wasn't just a fluke.
Excellent video, well researched.
I appreciate your positive comment!
Thanks!
Thanks once again!
He still got 5 confirm kills..that makes him the only ace in the subcontinent
His is officially the only fighter ace in the subcontinent, that much is true.
Very well researched! Great video and thank you for your work!
I appreciate your support!
another great video. in depth unbiased analysis of two sides who are at war with each other on all fronts of media is always difficult ...season greetings🎀 and i wish you a prosperous new year. 🎉
I appreciate your comment! Also, thank you for being subbed for such a long time!
Enjoyed this well researched video.
Air to air missile in 1965 shows, pakistan was well supported by US
It was. But after this war, things started to change.
And India was supported by Britain and Russia. The Indians had migs which the Pakistanis destroyed on the ground.
@@MahmudGhaznawi-iy3yu still one sided reply.. In 1965 India and Soviet relations were not as close as the US and Pakistan had. The biggest problem with nations like pakistan, Iran, north Korea, Iraq is that you guys always behave Big mouth over confidence and never lose any war with 0 casualties like video games that is why nobody trusts on 30 seconds
Indian migs had hardly arrived in 65 . This was because the US denied sabres to india . Migs came in their own in 71 when they blew PAF out of skies. ..
@@snd9826 in 71 not 65
I am inclined to believe Tufail in that M.M Alam ended up fighting two different formations without realizing it. Although I disagree with him about the Sidewinder proxy fuse leading to a kill.
A good and fair look at this remarkable day in air combat.
Thank you for yet another comment! These air combats really tend to become confusing and putting pieces together can get tricky. That's why there's so much disagreement.
Thank you this video, and the honest representation given to both sides. I'm not Indian or Pakistani, but have worked with a lot of them. If you raise the story of M.M. Alam, you find emotions from both sides of the spectrum - I hope that videos like this help in elaborating the facts and not the emotions.
That was the objective! Thank you very much for your positive feedback!
Merry Christmas to you and your family! 🌲🌲
Thank you very much, Merry Christmas to you as well!
This is how air combat should be portrayed. Complex, messy, and vulnerable to propaganda.
That describes air combat quite well 😁
...and the first choice is (drumroll, opens the envelope) SHOWTIME 112!!!! (standing ovation)
I appreciate this, thank you! 😁
Another great video! It should be noted that the Pakistani Sabres were Canadair built Mk6s with the much more powerful Orenda 14 engine. Quite superior to the J47 powered F86 E/F.
Speeds were very similar to the Indian Hunter Mk56 down low and at altitude however the Hunter had a higher rate of climb and 30mm cannon vs. the 0.5 machine guns of the F86.
The MK6 Sabre will out roll and out turn the Hunter. The Hunter will out zoom the Sabre.
Again, strength and weaknesses to each with the more skilled and savvy pilot, understanding relative strengths and weakness, usually coming out on top.
Thanks for the comment! I believe the Sabres used in 1965 were original, American ones. Pakistan later acquired some ex-German, Canadair Sabres which were used in 1971. However, I use Canadair Sabre here because in WT, they can carry missiles 😁
Pakistan only aquirred 90 orenda engined Candair ex Luftwaffe sabres just before the 1971 war .@@showtime112
@@showtime112 I believe you are correct. The PAF didn't receive the Mk6 Sabres until early 1966, so after this conflict was over. They called them F86Es in their service which adds to the confusion. They did perform more work in the later 1971 conflict where they faced even tougher opponents.
My father flew RCAF MK6s in Europe in the mid 1950s with 430 squadron. Was his favorite aircraft of all time and master of the skies there until the F100 started showing up in numbers with the USAF.
I love your videos, and I think you should make more content on the Pakistan-India wars. It's a fascinating and serious topic that I feel not many people know much about, especially the aerial battles that took place. Additionally, I recommend creating a video about the most recent air battle between the Pakistani Air Force and the Indian Air Force in 2019. Why not cover that as well? Keep up the hard work!
Also, I believe M. M. Alam scored at least 6-8 air-to-air kills, which automatically makes him an ace. That alone is something for Pakistanis to celebrate.
India Pakistan war videos should not have a comments section. It becomes a cesspit for idiots to wage a flame war that serves nobody.
Thank you for your comment! I intend to keep covering events from the Indo-Pakistani wars and probably also later incidents as well.
Yes man, waiting for that video for quite a time bro
I'd lie if I said there weren't any requests for it .... 😁
@@showtime112 u defo wud
I think your assessment is accurate as can be. The fog of war and propaganda can make for a toxic cocktail.
I appreciate your feedback, thank you!
Another great video. I don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems like those 6, .50 cal machine guns on the F-86 were more lethal against the Hunter than on the Mig-15. Perhaps the Hunters systems were more complex and more vulnerable to a few hits vs the Mig. I can hardly get over how good these graphics are.
Thanks! Regarding the graphics, the original video looks much better as the YT compression reduces quality of dark scenes quite significantly.
As usual, an unbiased account of the events. Bravo Showtime 112!
There are many contested claims and incidents in the history of aerial warfare. Perhaps the most debated ones are about (1) Who shot down the Red Baron? (2) M.M. Alam - Did he or didn't he?
Whatever anyone may say, he certainly was a gifted pilot and didn't deserve the ignominy which was heaped upon him by the PAF. They practically turfed him out after claiming that he was illiterate.
Now, that is a real shame.
I appreciate your comment! I also think Alam was a talented fighter pilot who found himself in a difficult situation there was no easy way out of.
Thank for your time in presenting every week an interesting chapter of aerial warfare. I cant ever say something bad about your research. Thanks Professor
I appreciate this honest support. I don't recall having been called 'Professor' before 😁
Irrespective of exactly how many Indian jets M Alam shot down it is a commonly acknowledged view that he was the best fighter pilot in the India Pakistani wars.
Well done showtime112 for a nice video!
Thanks! That's the point Sajad Haider makes, even if you apply the strictest criteria, he still had four victories. Only Saiful Azam had the same score (although mostly in another conflict).
Just continue with your Gerat videos please thanks ❤
Very good presentation. We shouldn't forget that during many wars, propaganda is an extra weapon.
Thank you very much! That's why it takes years, or even decades to properly assess such events.
Thank you for making this video.
MM ALAM is form my city Karachi as well as Sarfaraz Rafiqui.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I hope you watched the earlier two videos where Rafiqui appears
@showtime112 yeah already watched them, both were brilliantly made.
Brilliant . . Absolutely Brilliant narration of this most successful Dogfight of the entire Indo-Pak War of 1965 . . To be fair, I ll credit Alam for 05 Kills and 03 Damage for the Dogfights he did on 06th, 07th and 16th Sep, 1965 . .
And your video narration of this combat is the Best I ve ever seen and heard in all my years of reading or watching military history . .
As a gift from my side, If you ever visit Pakistan, I,ll sponser your 03 days stay at a Hotel and sight seeing of Alam's and my city, the Karachi . .
😘
Thank you very much! I'm happy to see that people appreciate objective views. And I might take you up on that offer some day, who knows? 😁
@showtime112 . . A promise is a promise . . You ll be my guest and will eagerly wait for your visit . . Regards and Best Wishes . .
i can't escape the snail
Personnaly, the only thing that I don't understand in this strory is why nobody bothered checking the gun cam images, because it could have resolved most of the problem and avoid useless controversies. Aside from that, this is a well made video as allways, and I wish you a mery Chistmas
Probably sabre`s gun camera does not work at high G turns
Thanks for your hard work and this video. No one can accuse of you of being biased, as you present the alternative theories very well. I'm an enthusiast of aviation history, but my knowledge of the Indo-Pakistani War is very poor. You have inspired me to research this conflict more seriously.
Yes they can, and they do 😁😁😁 Thank you for the positive comment!
Didn't Franz von Werra the only Luftwaffe pilot to escape British captivity in WW2, claim he came upon a silly amount of fighters circling to land and shot them all down?
There were a bunch of claims on a single mission but I don't think they took place in such a short time.
@@showtime112
Roger that.
Another masterpiece by Showtime 112. well done sir! dissecting the war chest thumping by both sides and try to separate the facts in India Pakistan conflict is no easy task.
I'm grateful for your words! These scenarios require, let's call it 'distance' to analyze properly😀
even showtime112 can not escape the snail.
Which snail?
@traviswalker8933 it's a long meme in war thunder
He sponsored the company, gaijin. Gaijin has the logo of a snail and is greedy for money so everyone calls it snail and that it would get you if you don't pay.
Well, I use WT to produce many of the videos anyway so why not make them pay for it? 😁
@showtime112 beware of the snail. It can show up to you house with a kv1 if it like
5 kills in 30 seconds, I think it's BS. I think it's unlikely that the Indian AF was that incompetent. Frankly the timeframe doesn't work.
They all flew in same direction and don’t break. He picked em off from the last to the leading
Four kills, the first claim happened a minute or two earlier. Also, 30 seconds might not be entirely accurate either. It could have easily been 50 or 60. Hard to judge exact time under such circumstances.
@@snd9826 unfortunately Indians don’t agree with this sentiment and during their surgical strike, kept bragging and didn’t believe me when I told them pakistanis shot down an Indian. Until ofc the next day when they saw with their own eyes
You paid zero attention to what was said at the start of the video. Nobody cares about your personal opinion. Delete the post or be reported.@@snd9826
Precisely, Delta Foxtrot.
Great work! 😊
Thanks, Chups!
This video is the first ever in history. Great work.
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it!
Thank you for covering this episode 😊
Thank you for watching it and commenting!
@Showtime 112 Thank you once again for another great video and a balanced assessment of the engagements based upon the sources you have at hand.
I am very grateful for your positive comment!
Excellent video and providing input from all sides and the amount of research done makes for a quality video! Clearly Alam did not shoot down 9 or 7 Hunters in all as claimed by some Pakistani sources. The only controversy is did he shoot down 4 or 5. It seems Kaiser Tufail's account is probably the most accurate. The first Hunter Alam shot down on the 7th of Sept is contested but common sense dictates it should not be! It would take an astonishing amount of coincidence for the Hunter to develop a fuel-line problem at around the same time as Alam releases his 2nd side-winder. I believe Tufail correctly credits Alam for this kill making him the only ace in the sub-continent.
Thank you for giving feedback!
Nice video. Speaking of remarkable one sortie kill streaks, have you considered a video on Giora Epstiens claims? A legend no doubt, but with 17 overall invluding 2 sorties with 4 kills each within 48 hrs...would be intresting to look into.
Thank you for the comment. I'll definitely cover Epstein in the future. For now, I'm doing a series on the 1956 Arab-Israeli War but once that's complete, I might cover the more recent battles.
Excellent video, as usual. Your respect to both sides is really appreciated. You are reaching an excellence level in your historical reenactment. Great! (Hunter is more beautiful, but Sabre is the best).
Those words make me feel better all of a sudden 😁 I could also agree that Hunter is more elegant of the two.
Good show and i'll keep watching!😉
I'm happy to hear it, thank you!
here i am accusing you to be biased towards; or paid by
I hope YT algorithm appreciates your engagement 😁
Hunter was a much heavier and robust fighter than sabre. One hunter took several hundred hits from a PAF sabre guns and yet was able to return to base
He probably thought he shot down that many - but hits that look fatal can often not be. Guy was clearly a skilled deflection shooter regardless.
I quite agree. Guy knew his stuff and he really wouldn't be the first pilot who mistook damage for a kill.
Hindsight is a complete different ball game. However the pilot had to decide it in split seconds and credit should be giving for his bravery.
Exactly
Great video. Fair and well presented comment. Thank you.
I am very grateful for this positive comment!
Thanks for video.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Amazing video. The Indo-Pakistani air war needs more coverage, and your video is an excellent contribution.
I find your videos very interesting, I know little of these conflicts.
Thank you very much!
My father Captain C.J. (Hank) HENRY, RCAF, recounted stories about training the Pakistan pilots on Canadian Sabres at Operational Training Unit, CFB Chatham , Canada in the 1950s. They were trained by the best.
Canadian pilots never were best so forget it son
Thank you for sharing that!
In aerial warfare and dogfights back in the 1960’s the technology was not as developed. Ground air defence and radars were primitive then. The air warriors relied more on their battle skills rather than machines and ordnance. They were bitter adversaries and rapidly boasted of their scores mostly inflating them. The propaganda war took them to yet another altitude.
True. One of the reasons why people find combat from this period fascinating is that they had to rely on their skills and really get close.
*Superb as usual!* Once again, clear & steady naration plus an even handed evaluation that highlights the confusion of aerial warfare. Thank you!
I'm happy to hear such nice words, thank you!
Let's check it out.
Feel free 😁
6:04 War Thumoer ad ends, back to F-86 vs. Hawker Hunter.
It is important to notice, war is chaotic, and in the stressful heat of battle, people often mistake things with other things, to confirm any event, a lot of cross referencing needs to be done between the evidence, when if any ever exists they are often declassified decades later, if ever, cause again, people may end up in places they are supposed not to be at, or do things they shouldn't have, then countries just don't admit it ever happened, or make cover up stories... it's not easy to conclude a solid result in these events...
Quite right. Politics often get in the way of getting to the bottom of things. And memories of human beings are not necessarily the most precise instruments 😁
Great video. Now the videos on the famous Wagah-Atari strike on Indian formation and strike on Pathankot by Wing Commander Syed Sajjad Haider are due at your end. Sajjad Haider was perhaps the only legendary commander of PAF who led massive strikes against the enemy and never lost a single jet in them.
Thank you! This particular episode was covered in a Patreon exclusive video on the channel. Perhaps someday I'll remake it for general audience if better assets become available.
Fascinating. Thankyou
Thank you for the comment!
U finally made a video on him ❤
Great videos.
Thank you very much!
I'm curious about you have any information about Yugoslavian war less known events about military aviation? Like the Serbian MiG-21, which was chased(?) by the Croatian air defense through the Hungarian border and it's released its two BL-755 British made cluster ammunition over the Hungarian border-town, Barcs? The bomblets fell onto the outskirt of the town, into a cementery and onto some local houses. No human injuries happened, only a dog were killed. The media than said that the MiG tried to get speed and altitude and got rid off its payload to reduce weight, so it was not an purposeful attack against Hungarian "targets", only a unfortunate event.
I'm afraid I don't have much more on that incident other than the general info you described. The aerial component of the wars in former Yugoslavia in the early 1990s haven't been that well researched. (or so it seems to me)
As showtime113 alluded, it is quite plausible that the two hunters that Alam damaged could have been viewed by him as destroyed. It’s a plausible view. Either way Alam was a great fighter pilot!
I thought it was a well balanced explanation and illustration of the events in question. I guess the two facts that provide some of the evidence are, the number of Hunter crash sites, which if correct show the true numbers and secondly, the lack of gun camera film to support the claims. Good video.
Happy comment !!!
Thanks, I hope the algorithm appreciates it 😁
I don't know how you do it. Having attempted to use Pakistani and Indian sources for research on military subjects decades ago, I was quickly put off by all their inflated and doubtful claims. One of my professors did his PhD using these sources and he said it was painful! So congratulations on your rational analysis 👍
You just have to accept it as a fact. Sides disagree about many such battles and it's really not limited to Indo-Pakistani wars. Arab-Israeli wars are not too different in many aspects and even in Vietnam, you can find many inconsistencies when you compare sources from two sides. Good thing is that it gives me great pleasure to untangle confused stories such as this one :)
@showtime112 Oh I know about inflated claims, having seen some created first hand, but some of these guys could work for Hollywood!
No he did not.. I'm obviously not from the region but I can say with 99.99999 percent probability that he did not shoot down that many aircraft in such a time frame.. you would need to straff an airfield to take out that many aircraft
Thank you for the feedback!
Somehow i believe that he didn't able to shoot the 5 aircrafts in a matter of only 30 sec really hard to believe the plane you try to hunt also makes turns takes evasive manuevers you have to chase an aircraft sometimes quite long he could had scored allmost 7 air to air kills like an ace but not that 5 in less than a minute i am from Pakistan he is a war hero to us an ace fighter pilot but 30 seconds story looks to me a very over exaggerated too much far fetched some fabricated narrative
The '30 seconds' was probably closer to a minute as I don't think anybody used a stopwatch here and estimating time in combat can be rather inaccurate.
Great work
Hvala!
This air battle was a clear win for the Pakistan Air Force as the Indians did not shoot any Pakistani jets down and they themselves admitted losing at least 3 hunters (maybe more).
Well done showtime112.
Thank you for the comment, I'm glad you appreciate the content.
Loved this animation. ❤
Thank you for the comment!
Interesting! The video animations help! And I like the unbiased approach. 👍
i am a pakistani and an air war enthusiast. there are sevral aspects to this air battle. no.1 that the indians were fighting at extreme range and therefore could not mix with the defending PAF interceptors. no.2 that the mission priorities of the Indian pilots was ground attack and while it is true that there was an escort element among the Indian fighters, the defending PAF interceptors had the upper hand in the way that endurance was'nt thier problem, they were guided by GCI and that the sabre had better sustained turn rate. even though most of kills were gun kills but the indians were conscious about the missle armament of of the PAF interceptors and the indians were also conscious of the presence of PAF F-104s' as top cover which though not as meneuverable and either the sabre or the hunter, had an impression due to which the indian pilots called it "Badmash". over all the indian pilots had a very non-aggresive attitude and that the PAF pilots were able to kill the hunters in a turning dogfight because the hunter tended to loose speed in a sustained turning dogfight.
Also, i think another Possiblility is that the PAF pilot used his missle to shoot one down and got the other by surprise. Probably shooting their engine or exhaust.
Or it's a litlle bit exaggerated and took a lil bit longer then 30 secs
The time is probably exaggerated as it's hard to measure exactly under such stress. Recently, I did a video about two Sea Harrier pilots shooting down three Argentine Daggers and one of the British pilots said 'we shot down three Daggers in five seconds'. It really couldn't have been that quick, it must have been closer to 30.
if you estimate the time taken to maneuver a F-86E Sabre air superiority fighter & achieve a convincing fire position shooting down your adversary . . . you'll observe that shooting down five enemy jets in less than a minute is near impossible . . . unless your F-86E airframe can endure & sustain in excess of 12gs or more . . . that too in sustained flight, maneuvering through extreme angle-of-attack AOA repeatedly . . .
Interesting.
Thank you very much!
In fact as a Pakistani I've always maintained given that I read the PAF's own account of this after the battle was that this pilot MM Alam had taken out three Indian planes in about 40 seconds, and it was possible because they had presented a very easy target. So later this officer took out another Indian aircraft, and then another. The last Indian plane limped back to his country. I met MM myself. What a man even at that age. He said to me this that "some of them (Indian pilots) were very proficient, but the ones that I got to my luck that day were all idiots" (sorry for that word).
So in all, five tally, in like give or take 5 minutes, one of the aircraft made it back to India.
Combined kills for MM Alam painted in Indian flag on his favourite f-86 Saber were nine, seven confirmed two probables, one of which was from the five he battled that day.
I've always corrected Pakistanis about this five planes in 30 seconds account or the JF-17 shotdown to Indian planes on February 27th 2019, both mines having been taken out by two different f-16s with their aim 120c air to air ordinance.
I thought the Hunter outclassed the Sabre. Seems Alan was a. Excellent pilot, would he have been better utilised flying a F-104?
A great video; I agree with your and Haider’s assessment. The guy is still a hero!
The Sabre is ideal for a prolonged, high-G turn like the one in which Alam destroyed at least 2x Hunter. The F-104 was designed primarily as a high speed, fast climbing interceptor; it was the antithesis of a dog-fighter and was notoriously unmanoeuvrable. (In this regard it struggled to be competitive in exercises versus its contemporary US rival, the F-106.) Hence the Starfighter was used most successfully against other fighters in diving boom & zoom passes, or in pursuing enemy aircraft that were RTB.
Thank you for the feedback! Sabre is not entirely inferior to the F-104. The latter aircraft had very poor maneuverability while the Sabre really excelled in low-level, turning fights.
MM Alam was born in modern day Bangladesh, which broke away from Pakistan in 1971.
Myth or not? Heard some différent opinions 🤔. Shift on TV now😊
*M M Alam's own commanding officer refused to accept his ridiculous claim. Bear in mind in those days missile auto lock did not exist Once a lock was obtained on an enemy plane & missile fired, the "lock" had to manually kept by the the missile firing plane's pilot. This makes the claim even more ridiculous.*
*No international body of "pilot kills" has accepted this claim.*
AIM-9B is an infra-red homing missile and as such, it's 'fire and forget'. It doesn't require any 'manual lock' or some kind of pilot input once it leaves the launch rail. In fact, the pilot can't influence it in any way after it's launched.
Also, I don't think there's such a thing as 'international body of pilot kills'.
He sure did!
Love Showtime trolling his trollers
*At the same time I do admit that I haven't read enough about the incident because I had no reason to doubt the claim as controversial
👍👍👍
Thank you for the comment!
What a shame you had to include the "bias" disclaimer.
Whats considered a kill? A jet that's been rendered useless or a jet actually crashing to the ground?
Generally, the latter but I think that's primarily because it is very hard to confirm that an enemy airplane that returns to base is written off. If an airplane is damaged by an enemy fighter and it limps back to base but then crash-lands or is considered beyond repair, it should be a kill if you ask me.
Do you have that of the Pathankot Strike by the PAF? It was led by Squadron Leader Syed Sajjad Haider with 8 F-86s.
Yes but it's a Patreon exclusive video.
@@showtime112 What does this mean? How may I get it?
Patreon is a service which enables financial support to various content creators. You can pledge a certain monthly amount and get various benefits such as exclusive content, early access and the ability to influence video topics. You can check it out here: www.patreon.com/showtime112
❤
Hvala opet!
Good job on the research 🇵🇰
I appreciate your comment, thank you!
3:39 to 4:02 is the kind shit luck i have in war thunder
Had Indian pilots had Sabres alam would have been alarmed.
Not really. Indian pilots had the disadvantage of fighting at the limit of fuel endurance and the couldn't maneuver too much. Alam was near his home base and could afford to push to the limit. Perhaps Sabre was somewhat better in a turn but I don't think that really decided the outcome here.
The fact that he claims he shot 5 jets in 30 seconds in itself shows he is telling truth.....why else would a pilot claim to shoot 5 jets in 30 seconds if it wasnt true.....
What?
It could be a 'big lie'? Can't remember who invented it though? I do remember his facial hair though ▪
@vinceely2906 or it could be just as how he described.........indian pilots are known to be un professional...and indian story is bs aswell...its prett coincidental that both jets had same malfunction on the same mission .....WOW😂😂
@@sobant4795really? And this is why I replied to another guy asking for more videos that we should not have a comments section on these videos. It just becomes a cesspit of flame wars and idiots like you making blanket statements about an adversary. Even if Alam shot down 5 as he says, it doesn't mean the Indian pilots were unprofessional. They did kill a lot of your beloved Sabres with a fighter that was considered one of the worst in the world.
@@sobant4795 or else your pakistan mm alan is lying about its fake story he shot down 5 jet in 30 seconds
It's impossible for old and modern aircraft to shoot down 5 jets in 30 seconds because it's taken time to Chase aircraft then aim and lock the target then shoot the missile and wait for it if the missile has hit or not confirm it then move to next target then again Chase them
Pakistan are experts in Lying like they won the 1965 war or shot down 5 jets in 30 sec 😂 hypersonic jet technology loliwood stories
7 kills = Thala for a reason 💀💀😅😅