For years I was in favor of the heartland theory for Book of Mormon location, but then one little thought hit me and changed my stance: the lack of any mention of snow. If a pre-industrial civilization existed in an area with significant seasonal variations, preparing for winters and surviving winters would’ve been a ubiquitous experience, and would’ve been mentioned in the society’s historical records and religious symbology
1 Nephi 11:8 8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
@@CJRealHoops1 there are no societal records…. No contemporary religious nor archeological evidence….. but then again there isn’t any archeological evidence for Gondor either and yet we know they called for aid and Rohan answered…. Oh wait that’s fiction too
Moroni was in upstate NY, he never mentioned snow. Snow is referenced in the Book of Mormon in the words of Isaiah, and was taught among the BoM people’s, they would have some knowledge of what snow is. The Jatedites were a large people, they had large beasts of burden, mega fauna like that is in North America, migratory animals and beasts are in North America. There certainly is influence of BoM people in many areas, but one thing we know for certain in that Moroni was in North America without a doubt, meso is speculation. The Israelites didn’t build the pyramids, and they didn’t build the Mesoamerican pyramids either. It’s the same misconception.
I agree that it's strange the Book of Mormon doesn't mention snow among the Nephites. Isaiah mentioning snow is different than the Nephites mentioning snow. Even in Mesoamerica, there has been snow. The other thing is that the Nephites have battles that span all year, wearing just a loin clothe. It doesn't make sense for North America.
I have always felt that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. Moroni traveled North through what is now Utah and then to Upstate New York, where he eventually got to the hill Camorah and hid the plates. There is the concept that Moroni dedicated the site for the Manti Temple, I am not sure which apostle made that remark, but it was when the site for the Manti Temple was chosen in the late 1800s.
That is a great point. Heartlanders never use that quote even though they put other early prophet quotes on the BoM on a pedestal. Why would Moroni be all the way out in Utah of he didn't need to leave upstate NY? In Manti, UT, "Brother Snow says, “We two were alone; President Young took me to the spot where the Temple was to stand; we went to the south-east corner, and President Young said, 'Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here."
From what I read, it was a bishop in Manti who claimed Brigham Young told him privately that Moroni dedicated the Manti temple grounds. While I think the account isn't that solid, I do think it's possible for Moroni to do that. He had 36 years to travel.
@@zandersturgillI’ve heard the story about Moroni dedicating the spot for the Manti temple. There are some very unique petroglyphs just east of the temple. Similar petroglyphs are found throughout Utah and the west. These are different than traditional Native American petroglyphs. I believe Moroni wandered thru the west.
I've also considered that it's possible that Moroni could have done these things as a resurrected being. After all, he appeared to Joseph Smith as such, and he likely visited Mary Whitmer to show her the plates. But I'm open to all the various options 😊
Awesome! Thanks so much for doing this, Zander - this is really needed 😊 I've been wanting someone to do a nice, general Mesoamerican model video (or videos) that briefly covers all of the different Mesoamerican models and why we are focused on that area. I feel like the Heartland model folks get more than their fair share of exposure and publicity (they are really good at 'marketing' their model and Neville and Meldrum have been present on so many different channels), and I feel like the Mesoamerican Models don't near anywhere near the same level of exposure and publicity amongst the general church membership, which is a shame. So thank you for helping to communicate this model with your very well-done videos. I've been a fan of Sorenson's model since reading his first book in the 1990's (Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon), and have since read his later work "Mormon's Codex" and Brant Gardner's book "Traditions of the Fathers: The Book of Mormon as History". All of those are excellent. I am also curious about Magleby's model but it's hard to find good documentation on that model (as of yet) and I'd like to see if it has as many tight correspondences as the Sorenson Model. I'm open to other models as well, but think, like you do, that the best ones are in Mesoamerica. Lance Weaver also has some interesting ideas, though I think that the Heartland of the USA was a 'hinterland', and wasn't the location of any of the events described in the Book of Mormon, except for the final burial place of the plates which Mormon gave to his son Moroni. Mark Alan Wright wrote an excellent article on the "Heartland as Hinterland" a few years ago, which I agree with. It can also help make sense of Joseph Smith's various statements (the Zelph incident and the 'plains of the Nephites' statement, etc.). It also provides a logical path for Moroni to take after it became too dangerous for him to remain in the area where the final battles took place. It makes perfect sense that he would hightail it north to where Nephites had previously migrated, and there may very well have been continuing trade connections with the Mississippi valley peoples (Hopewell, etc.). He could have traveled by boat to the mouth of the Mississippi and then upriver from there during those many years of wandering. It's also very important, as you mentioned in this video, that we make use of the latest scientific research and don't cherry pick the science that agrees with our model while throwing out the science that doesn't. That is one of the big strengths of the Mesoamerican models in my opinion. The Heartland folks have a major roadblock in that area, which is one of the reasons I cannot take that model seriously. It also explains why the proponents of that model highly discount mainstream science, even inventing the "Universal Model" to try to redefine science to agree with their interpretations of historical passages in scripture. It doesn't help that they also make liberal use of highly questionable artifacts, etc. It gives our critics a 'field day' in making it so easy to debunk the model from a scientific standpoint. With the Mesoamerican models, the critics have to fall back on their very common and typical 'moving the goalposts', and 'mental gymnastics' arguments. I'm very much looking forward to your future videos!
Thank you! I agree. There needs to be more out there for the Mesoamerican model. I think there’s many good scholars for it, but they’re just not great at consistent video production. Hopefully I can help a bit.
I've thought about that idea, but the more I delve into each of the models, the more I think that doing that type of a video would probably not work very well. The reason is because the research methodology is so different between the 2 models. The Heartland folks are very highly (and myopically) focused on cherry-picked statements of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery (and others such as Joseph Fielding Smith) which they interpret as 100% fact. Their entire model is built upon those interpretations and then the model is made to fit around that. So their actual geographic correspondences are actually fairly weak, especially since they discount modern science so much and rely too heavily on artifacts of questionable origin and reinterpretations of sites and DNA science that disagrees with modern scientific interpretations of the same artifacts and DNA results. The Mesoamerican models focus more on the actual Book of Mormon text and try to use modern scientific interpretations as well to find the best geographical fits. Past church leader statements regarding Book of Mormon geography are taken with a grain of salt, while we place more weight on what the modern prophets and apostles are saying with regards to the church's neutral stance on Book of Mormon geography.
If our modern prophets say that we should not hinge BoM location on the statements of past prophets than this tells me that those who DO this are denying apostolic authority and the very foundation of our religious doctrine. You cannot call yourself a true Latter Day Saint if you believe one LDS prophet has superior revelation than any other. They all receive their prophecy from the same source.
Zander, the discovery of Malchia's (fits very well with Mulek) tomb in Panama adds strong evidence that BoM lands were in fact in Central America. There were 30 scrolls found in Malchia's sarcophagus that tell his story. He established a city called "Saraivla" near Vulcan Baru on the border of Panama and Costa Rica, and was made king over the people that came with him from Jerusalem. You can watch the video on RUclips: prompt: "Gold Plates discovered in ancient precolumbian tomb".
I love your work, here is my two cents: The Jatedites were a large people, they had large beasts of burden, mega fauna like that is in North America, migratory animals and beasts are in North America. There certainly is influence of BoM people in many areas, but one thing we know for certain in that Moroni was in North America without a doubt, meso is speculation. The Israelites didn’t build the pyramids, and they didn’t build the Mesoamerican pyramids either. It’s the same misconception.
Thanks for commenting. Many of us who support a Mesoamerican theory also don't think Israelites built the Maya pyramids. As I mentioned in the video, we think the Nephites were a small group being influenced by the Maya around them, but the Nephites were not the Maya.
@ I have studied both out, even been to some pyramids in Belize, drawn many parallels myself, but keep getting brought back to Heartland Yucatan frame. I think trade existed and cities all over may be mentioned. I am firmly that Jaredites were in the North, I have found many Akkadian linguistic similarities that I have been wanting to share. Barges make sense to be going through cold, I doubt it would be very tolerable in the heat. Large people feed off of large meat sources. And the absolute we know is Moroni was in Northeastern portion of the United States. So the setting of the BoM at the very least ends there. I still study both models. I think there’s a lot in the heartland camp that gets accepted that shouldn’t be accepted and looks like Napoleon Dynamite drew up, but I believe the Nephites were in a land that was preserved. There are great Asiatic populations that seemed to routinely come into the land. I think many were led by God to these lands but the Book of Mormon record is tells such a small part we tend to attribute to whatever is biggest.
In recent months I have begun to believe that the primary narrow neck spoken of in the BoM is the one in Guatemala, NOT the one one in Mexico. This is because MOST of the Mayan civilization existed in the Yucatan region, and there is a far better mountainous strip of wilderness near that narrow neck than the one in Mexico.
Is that part of Magleby's model? He has the Usumacinta River as the Sidon instead of the Grijalva. He also splits the land Bountiful into a western and eastern area, on either side of the Yucatan.
Not sure, but my main reason for this is because we know for a fact that Fire Is Born conquered Tikal in 380 AD, precisely the same time that Mormon said the Lamanites had taken their last city. Tikal is in the Yucatan, just north of the Guatemala narrow neck of land. So to me that says that Cumorah was probably near there as well.
If the Book of Mormon took place in the Heartland, it would not make sense that there was no mention at all of an even greater civilization to the south. Surely Mormon would have written about this superior civilization building huge, advanced stone pyramids? Surely they would have had trade with them? The reason they weren't mentioned is because those people down south WERE the epicenter for the Nephite civilization.
I also have a hard time with the Jaredites living in Canada/Upper New York, when we don't have a great civilization up there that fits the Jaredite numbers.
Exactly right. Not to mention the fact that the so called land of Desolation, by Heartlanders, where no timber would grow, is one of the most wooded places on planet earth (Quebec & Ontario).
@fightingfortruth9806 The land of Desolation had been "rendered desolate" because of the inhabitants living there. It wasn't desolate of trees because they couldn't grow there, it was desolate of trees because the Jaredite population had chopped them all down. If trees could've grow in a proposed location during the Jaredite and Book of Mormon time frame, I think it isn't the right location.
The mention of no timber in Helaman was nearly 100 years after the Jaredites had gone extinct (Approx 122 BC to 34 BC). Seeds from chopped down trees would have taken root and would have grown large by then. That explanation is completely ridiculous.
The pine trees in my yard were planted in 1984 as saplings. They are now 100 feet tall and fully mature. If an area was capable of producing forests it wouldn't still have lacked timber decades later.
I love your thought of early Saints "accepting any archaeological ruins as a support." I personally have the belief that the Lord allowed such speculation in the early history of the Church so that the truly miraculous missionary work in South America could come about. For that matter, also in the Hawaiian and Samoan islands, etc. After all, those South American cultures had to come from "somewhere" if not specifically from Lehi. After all, we know about the Jaredites. Truly, Jacob chapter 5 tells us there have been multiple transplantations all over the 4 quarters of the earth. But, the HEARTLAND THEORY? Yes, that is the correct theory and the place of Cumorah is accurate.
It only makes sense in the heartland. the meso model does not fit the archeological record at all. It's like making a square peg fit in a round hole. Cherrypicking what evidence supports the bom narrative and ignoring everything else.
@fightingfortruth9806 Do you believe Mesoamerica is a land with a nation that is blessed above all others in the last days? This seems to be the biggest problem for me. Also, the Book of Mormon says the new Jerusalem will be built on this land. As far as I know, the D&C says the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri, not Mesoamerica. It seems to me this land mentioned in the Book of Mormon can only be Missouri and the eastern part of the United States.
What do you think of the 18th century Mexican priest Fray Servando Teresa de Mier? His research determined the first century Mexicans were Christian. He said the word Mexico derives from the Hebrew word Messiah.
There's some interesting stuff from early Spanish explorers and monks. The trick is trying to figure out how much they put their Christian ideas on their accounts.
This is an area where we have to be really careful and cautious in our research. It can be next to impossible to separate the real pre-Columbian accounts from later Spanish Christian influences. The Quetzalcoatl traditions of a "bearded white God" is just one such example. Brant Gardner has a section of his book devoted to that, explaining why we shouldn't use that as Book of Mormon evidence anymore.
@@kevindoorman362 the Aztecs were latecomers to Mexico. Fray Mier’s book “Apology and Relations of His Life Under the Title of Memoirs” refers to natives who had ancestors tracing back to the first century AD. Not the Aztecs.
@@zandersturgillFray Meier was exiled from Spanish Mexico for his heretical teachings about pre Columbian Christianity. The early Spanish monks were surprised to find local tribes who practiced circumcision.
@ 100% agree! I’m glad you’re willing to do it. I just don’t think I’ve ever seen any church topic that angers a certain group of members like this topic does 😂
There is a narrow neck of land between the great lakes or inland seas that fit the east and west seas. Central America's narrow land mass is easy to see on a map, but in reality, it takes days to cross and is not narrow enough to defend like the narrow neck between the great lakes.
There are no words translated as "lakes" or "seas" in the BoM. There is only one sea, called "the sea," which surrounds and frames the region. The northern half of the narrow neck of land (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) lay under the seasonal Coatzacoalcos Floodplain. The more passable southern half, from the narrow pass (Chivela Pass) to the sea west (Pacific), was fortified by the Nephites.
@jeffreya.faulkner8367 See Alma 22:27 for the sea west and the sea east and a narrow strip of wilderness. The distance was a day and a half journey, see verse 32. Good luck crossing any distance between the Pacific and Atlantic in 1 day and a half on foot.
All I need to know and do in life is follow God's restored church and His selected prophets. Anything else is a moot point as true evidence is discovered over time. People have erroneously left the church when certain "facts" didn't line up in the past. Yet those same concerns were fixed as more modern day truths and discoveries were revealed! All In all just focus on Christ and His restored truths and everything else will fall into place!
(1) the NEMENHAH RECORDS (from the native Americans is a good start) (2) Chief midegah of the ojibwe nation. And other chiefs coming forward. All of North America (and some south) Also, the Americas were mentioned in the ANG AKLATAN RECORDS found in the Philippines. It's an interesting topic. Thanks.
Where are the thousands of swords? You mention stained swords? Where? Flocks of cattle, sheep, elephants. Where are they? Answer- we don’t know. What we know is the spiritual power of the book. Its purpose fulfilled to lead to Christ. Another- not the testament of Christ. All this is pure conjecture lad.
The Book of Mormon treats swords like it's a rare valuable item. I mentioned stained swords because that implies they were made of wood, since wood would stain more than metal. And when we look at ancient Maya history, they would pride themselves of their blood stained wooden Macuahuitls.
My guess is when the book mentions, "that there were beasts in the forests of every kind" that includes what you are referring to. But Nephi chose to specifically mention the animals he was more interested in.
unfortunately ... ( for the mesoamerica guys ) joseph smith ( the prophet of the restoration ) made it very clear. it was in the heartland. not mesoamerica.
@@grayman7208 I partly address this in the video. If it was that clear, then the church’s official essay would say it. I don’t think it’s as clear as heartlanders want it to be.
@zandersturgill Was Joseph Smith wrong when he told the brethren that they were walking across the plains of Nephi picking up their bones as evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity? Remember this happened happened during Zion's camp as they marched across Indiana and Illinois.
Bruh “However, the Mayan empire was in full force between 250 A.D. and 900 A. D.” -Reference.com Pretty similar to the destruction of the Nephites ehh? If it doesn’t match the time period then tell me what does and we can get started. On you’re other note, they spilt off 2600 years ago, and dna tests have only been invented in the past hundred years, and if all humans originated from the old world then if you had a 100% accurate dna test then everyone could trace their lineage all the way back to Adam and Eve. Seeing how all other non-native but also native Americans whether they crossed the Bering straight or what not didn’t live in the Americas 6000 years ago… what am I even talking about anymore? I have throughly confused myself. Anyhow. Here is the POINT: There are no ‘true’ people of any culture having lived somewhere for more than a few thousand years so even if they once were Jewish, of course their test is gonna show up as Native American and not Jewish, especially since the Jewish dna has also changed a lot in 2000 years. On a separate note, that’s why the American dialect is technically more British than the British’s “Received Pronunciation” because that originated as the proper British English after the colonies separated. I am truly sorry. 😂 I like to rant…
Jonathan, look at the video of the tomb of the Hebrew king Malchia discovered in 2011: RUclips prompt: "Gold Plates discovered in ancient precolumbian tomb".
Many other church members, including me, and including our current church leaders, don't interpret 1 Nephi 13 as pinpointing exactly where the Book of Mormon events took place. It can easily be interpreted as meaning the entire western hemisphere, not just the area of the current eastern USA (the USA in the late 1820s) or even not just the area east of the Appalachians (the USA during the Revolutionary War). Also, it is entirely plausible that Lehi's seed, currently and also at the time the New World was discovered by the Europeans, was spread throughout much of the entire hemisphere. I actually believe strongly that this is the case. It also helps explain why many past church leaders referred to "Lehi's descendants" as being present in many countries in both North and South America. I also believe that the percentage contribution of Lehi's dna is too small to detect amongst current indigenous populations, due to the tiny fraction of the size of the immigrant population compared to the total pre-existing native population.
@philandrews2860 We don't have to interpret anything in 1 Nephi 13. If we know where the land that is blessed above all others is in the last days and where a war took place between the gentiles and the mother gentiles on said land (the revolutionary war), we know where the Book of Mormon took place. Again, no interpretation is needed. Simply accepting what the Book of Mormon says is all that is required. At the very least, we know the land was on the eastern coast of the United States. This also matches the location where the plates were deposited.
@MarkHigbee I just read 1 Nephi 13, and it's petty clear that the chapter is talking about the the US in its early stages, but that doesn't mean that's where the main narrative of the Book of Mormon took place as well.
Honestly I stand with Joseph Smith Jr. on this one. I think we have a problem in the church where we think because of the elaborate cities constructed in MesoAmerica that it must be the place. The truth is I don't hinge my faith in the Christ based on where the Book of Mormon took place.
Agreed that we should not hinge our faith on Book of Mormon geography. It's more of a 'nice to know' and not essential at all. I find it helpful though to have at least a certain amount of evidence for plausibility, which I believe we do. Certainly not 100% proof, which is expected due to the book's nature of divine origin. Many, including myself, believe strongly that Joseph Smith, like all the other early church members, believed in a general hemispherical model, which lasted even until recent years amongst most church members. That model seems to have prevailed throughout much of the church's history. I believed in that model growing up, and everyone I knew of pretty much did also.
Awesome, now do why the Lord of the Rings fits perfectly into North Korea…. Since we’re fitting fact to fiction and all….. no… that is 0 historians that aren’t attached to the church can attribute any historical or geographic context to this work of absolute fiction. Yes JS could have based it upon a general area of geography but that’s a strain. Why no ironworks? Where are the swords and wheels? It’s hysterical. Agriculture en mass wasn’t a thing in MesoAmerica other than slash and burn and the “pre classic” context you hope to put it in is absolutely BS when dates for what we know are put it into consideration. BoM times is irrelevant since it’s basically like saying the time of the LOTR…. Yeah you could kinda date it into the European Feudal era but that’s not actually the specific time frame. I hate this goofy fraudulent religion and am irritated I had to be drug through it as a child
After researching the topic of this video for over 30 years and having read many books on this topic, I have come to the exact opposite conclusion. The most glaring problem with the blanket statements you make is that they are all based on faulty assumptions. The biggest assumption you make is that a very small group of Old World immigrants could be expected to have a large enough cultural influence on the much larger pre-existing native cultures that one would be able to find such cultural influences in an area of the world that has a climate that is not at all conducive to artifact preservation and in which we've just barely scratched the surface as far as discoveries of pre-classic sites and artifacts go. Even if it weren't for the physical environmental reasons, one could still argue that how many of the Old World cultural influences would actually survive long enough to appear in often perishable artifacts and structures that weren't made of stone. Call it fantasy if you will, but there is also plenty of plausible evidence that it is indeed an ancient record. Due to the divine nature of its appearance, we cannot expect to 'prove' it 100% to those who do not choose sincerely and willingly to meet the requirement for faith. That is how God intended it to be and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I don't expect non-LDS historians, anthropologists, and archaeologists to take the book seriously because of its divine origin and the implications of believing in its historicity. If it is a true historical record, the implications are huge: that Joseph Smith was inspired of God, that God exists, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, was resurrected, etc., etc.
@Jimmy2toes4u Wait, Lord of the Rings fits perfectly into North Korea? I’m a bit confused. For one thing, the ocean is East of Korea (and south), for Middle Earth it’s West.
The most important point of this WHOLE video, "Read the book of mormon, it will change your life." So so true.
Thank you. That is absolutely correct.
For years I was in favor of the heartland theory for Book of Mormon location, but then one little thought hit me and changed my stance: the lack of any mention of snow. If a pre-industrial civilization existed in an area with significant seasonal variations, preparing for winters and surviving winters would’ve been a ubiquitous experience, and would’ve been mentioned in the society’s historical records and religious symbology
1 Nephi 11:8
8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
@@CJRealHoops1 there are no societal records…. No contemporary religious nor archeological evidence….. but then again there isn’t any archeological evidence for Gondor either and yet we know they called for aid and Rohan answered…. Oh wait that’s fiction too
@@jonathanbird5094”the whiteness of the driven snow” is such a 19th century saying and I thank you for allowing me to point that out
Moroni was in upstate NY, he never mentioned snow. Snow is referenced in the Book of Mormon in the words of Isaiah, and was taught among the BoM people’s, they would have some knowledge of what snow is. The Jatedites were a large people, they had large beasts of burden, mega fauna like that is in North America, migratory animals and beasts are in North America. There certainly is influence of BoM people in many areas, but one thing we know for certain in that Moroni was in North America without a doubt, meso is speculation.
The Israelites didn’t build the pyramids, and they didn’t build the Mesoamerican pyramids either. It’s the same misconception.
I agree that it's strange the Book of Mormon doesn't mention snow among the Nephites. Isaiah mentioning snow is different than the Nephites mentioning snow. Even in Mesoamerica, there has been snow. The other thing is that the Nephites have battles that span all year, wearing just a loin clothe. It doesn't make sense for North America.
I have always felt that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica. Moroni traveled North through what is now Utah and then to Upstate New York, where he eventually got to the hill Camorah and hid the plates. There is the concept that Moroni dedicated the site for the Manti Temple, I am not sure which apostle made that remark, but it was when the site for the Manti Temple was chosen in the late 1800s.
That is a great point. Heartlanders never use that quote even though they put other early prophet quotes on the BoM on a pedestal. Why would Moroni be all the way out in Utah of he didn't need to leave upstate NY?
In Manti, UT, "Brother Snow says, “We two were alone; President Young took me to the spot where the Temple was to stand; we went to the south-east corner, and President Young said, 'Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here."
From what I read, it was a bishop in Manti who claimed Brigham Young told him privately that Moroni dedicated the Manti temple grounds. While I think the account isn't that solid, I do think it's possible for Moroni to do that. He had 36 years to travel.
@@zandersturgillI’ve heard the story about Moroni dedicating the spot for the Manti temple. There are some very unique petroglyphs just east of the temple. Similar petroglyphs are found throughout Utah and the west. These are different than traditional Native American petroglyphs. I believe Moroni wandered thru the west.
I've also considered that it's possible that Moroni could have done these things as a resurrected being. After all, he appeared to Joseph Smith as such, and he likely visited Mary Whitmer to show her the plates. But I'm open to all the various options 😊
Awesome! Thanks so much for doing this, Zander - this is really needed 😊
I've been wanting someone to do a nice, general Mesoamerican model video (or videos) that briefly covers all of the different Mesoamerican models and why we are focused on that area. I feel like the Heartland model folks get more than their fair share of exposure and publicity (they are really good at 'marketing' their model and Neville and Meldrum have been present on so many different channels), and I feel like the Mesoamerican Models don't near anywhere near the same level of exposure and publicity amongst the general church membership, which is a shame. So thank you for helping to communicate this model with your very well-done videos.
I've been a fan of Sorenson's model since reading his first book in the 1990's (Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon), and have since read his later work "Mormon's Codex" and Brant Gardner's book "Traditions of the Fathers: The Book of Mormon as History". All of those are excellent. I am also curious about Magleby's model but it's hard to find good documentation on that model (as of yet) and I'd like to see if it has as many tight correspondences as the Sorenson Model. I'm open to other models as well, but think, like you do, that the best ones are in Mesoamerica. Lance Weaver also has some interesting ideas, though I think that the Heartland of the USA was a 'hinterland', and wasn't the location of any of the events described in the Book of Mormon, except for the final burial place of the plates which Mormon gave to his son Moroni. Mark Alan Wright wrote an excellent article on the "Heartland as Hinterland" a few years ago, which I agree with. It can also help make sense of Joseph Smith's various statements (the Zelph incident and the 'plains of the Nephites' statement, etc.). It also provides a logical path for Moroni to take after it became too dangerous for him to remain in the area where the final battles took place. It makes perfect sense that he would hightail it north to where Nephites had previously migrated, and there may very well have been continuing trade connections with the Mississippi valley peoples (Hopewell, etc.). He could have traveled by boat to the mouth of the Mississippi and then upriver from there during those many years of wandering.
It's also very important, as you mentioned in this video, that we make use of the latest scientific research and don't cherry pick the science that agrees with our model while throwing out the science that doesn't. That is one of the big strengths of the Mesoamerican models in my opinion. The Heartland folks have a major roadblock in that area, which is one of the reasons I cannot take that model seriously. It also explains why the proponents of that model highly discount mainstream science, even inventing the "Universal Model" to try to redefine science to agree with their interpretations of historical passages in scripture. It doesn't help that they also make liberal use of highly questionable artifacts, etc. It gives our critics a 'field day' in making it so easy to debunk the model from a scientific standpoint. With the Mesoamerican models, the critics have to fall back on their very common and typical 'moving the goalposts', and 'mental gymnastics' arguments.
I'm very much looking forward to your future videos!
Thank you! I agree. There needs to be more out there for the Mesoamerican model. I think there’s many good scholars for it, but they’re just not great at consistent video production. Hopefully I can help a bit.
Sorenson also predicted that there would be a city under Lake Atitlan based on his model before Samabac was discovered. Shows how solid his model is.
There's a lot about the Sorenson model that I really like. I'm still open to other Meso models, but probably the Sorenson model the most.
I want a video where both sides (Heartland and Meso) go through each of these points together.
So would I. I'd like it to spend a lot of time on the geography details, instead of just debating past statements.
I've thought about that idea, but the more I delve into each of the models, the more I think that doing that type of a video would probably not work very well. The reason is because the research methodology is so different between the 2 models. The Heartland folks are very highly (and myopically) focused on cherry-picked statements of Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery (and others such as Joseph Fielding Smith) which they interpret as 100% fact. Their entire model is built upon those interpretations and then the model is made to fit around that. So their actual geographic correspondences are actually fairly weak, especially since they discount modern science so much and rely too heavily on artifacts of questionable origin and reinterpretations of sites and DNA science that disagrees with modern scientific interpretations of the same artifacts and DNA results. The Mesoamerican models focus more on the actual Book of Mormon text and try to use modern scientific interpretations as well to find the best geographical fits. Past church leader statements regarding Book of Mormon geography are taken with a grain of salt, while we place more weight on what the modern prophets and apostles are saying with regards to the church's neutral stance on Book of Mormon geography.
If our modern prophets say that we should not hinge BoM location on the statements of past prophets than this tells me that those who DO this are denying apostolic authority and the very foundation of our religious doctrine.
You cannot call yourself a true Latter Day Saint if you believe one LDS prophet has superior revelation than any other. They all receive their prophecy from the same source.
Yeah. It becomes a slippery slope for Heartland leaders when they only accept the statements that fit them.
Zander, the discovery of Malchia's (fits very well with Mulek) tomb in Panama adds strong evidence that BoM lands were in fact in Central America. There were 30 scrolls found in Malchia's sarcophagus that tell his story. He established a city called "Saraivla" near Vulcan Baru on the border of Panama and Costa Rica, and was made king over the people that came with him from Jerusalem. You can watch the video on RUclips: prompt: "Gold Plates discovered in ancient precolumbian tomb".
I love your work, here is my two cents: The Jatedites were a large people, they had large beasts of burden, mega fauna like that is in North America, migratory animals and beasts are in North America. There certainly is influence of BoM people in many areas, but one thing we know for certain in that Moroni was in North America without a doubt, meso is speculation.
The Israelites didn’t build the pyramids, and they didn’t build the Mesoamerican pyramids either. It’s the same misconception.
Thanks for commenting. Many of us who support a Mesoamerican theory also don't think Israelites built the Maya pyramids. As I mentioned in the video, we think the Nephites were a small group being influenced by the Maya around them, but the Nephites were not the Maya.
@ I have studied both out, even been to some pyramids in Belize, drawn many parallels myself, but keep getting brought back to Heartland Yucatan frame. I think trade existed and cities all over may be mentioned. I am firmly that Jaredites were in the North, I have found many Akkadian linguistic similarities that I have been wanting to share. Barges make sense to be going through cold, I doubt it would be very tolerable in the heat. Large people feed off of large meat sources. And the absolute we know is Moroni was in Northeastern portion of the United States. So the setting of the BoM at the very least ends there. I still study both models. I think there’s a lot in the heartland camp that gets accepted that shouldn’t be accepted and looks like Napoleon Dynamite drew up, but I believe the Nephites were in a land that was preserved. There are great Asiatic populations that seemed to routinely come into the land. I think many were led by God to these lands but the Book of Mormon record is tells such a small part we tend to attribute to whatever is biggest.
The cope here is amazing.
In recent months I have begun to believe that the primary narrow neck spoken of in the BoM is the one in Guatemala, NOT the one one in Mexico. This is because MOST of the Mayan civilization existed in the Yucatan region, and there is a far better mountainous strip of wilderness near that narrow neck than the one in Mexico.
Is that part of Magleby's model? He has the Usumacinta River as the Sidon instead of the Grijalva. He also splits the land Bountiful into a western and eastern area, on either side of the Yucatan.
Not sure, but my main reason for this is because we know for a fact that Fire Is Born conquered Tikal in 380 AD, precisely the same time that Mormon said the Lamanites had taken their last city. Tikal is in the Yucatan, just north of the Guatemala narrow neck of land. So to me that says that Cumorah was probably near there as well.
If the Book of Mormon took place in the Heartland, it would not make sense that there was no mention at all of an even greater civilization to the south. Surely Mormon would have written about this superior civilization building huge, advanced stone pyramids? Surely they would have had trade with them?
The reason they weren't mentioned is because those people down south WERE the epicenter for the Nephite civilization.
I also have a hard time with the Jaredites living in Canada/Upper New York, when we don't have a great civilization up there that fits the Jaredite numbers.
Exactly right. Not to mention the fact that the so called land of Desolation, by Heartlanders, where no timber would grow, is one of the most wooded places on planet earth (Quebec & Ontario).
@fightingfortruth9806 The land of Desolation had been "rendered desolate" because of the inhabitants living there. It wasn't desolate of trees because they couldn't grow there, it was desolate of trees because the Jaredite population had chopped them all down. If trees could've grow in a proposed location during the Jaredite and Book of Mormon time frame, I think it isn't the right location.
The mention of no timber in Helaman was nearly 100 years after the Jaredites had gone extinct (Approx 122 BC to 34 BC). Seeds from chopped down trees would have taken root and would have grown large by then.
That explanation is completely ridiculous.
The pine trees in my yard were planted in 1984 as saplings. They are now 100 feet tall and fully mature. If an area was capable of producing forests it wouldn't still have lacked timber decades later.
Best video yet. Nicely done Zander.
The Book of Mormon might have only happened in Joseph Smith's mind. But I could be wrong. Where is a site that explores all possibilities?
Every site will be biased. Mine as well. I recommend going straight to the source. Read the Book of Mormon, study it like never before.
I love your thought of early Saints "accepting any archaeological ruins as a support." I personally have the belief that the Lord allowed such speculation in the early history of the Church so that the truly miraculous missionary work in South America could come about. For that matter, also in the Hawaiian and Samoan islands, etc. After all, those South American cultures had to come from "somewhere" if not specifically from Lehi. After all, we know about the Jaredites. Truly, Jacob chapter 5 tells us there have been multiple transplantations all over the 4 quarters of the earth. But, the HEARTLAND THEORY? Yes, that is the correct theory and the place of Cumorah is accurate.
And then, there's the Mentinah......
Great video. I Agree! The Book of Mormon only makes sense in Mesoamerica. I have been studying this for 40 years.
It only makes sense in the heartland. the meso model does not fit the archeological record at all. It's like making a square peg fit in a round hole. Cherrypicking what evidence supports the bom narrative and ignoring everything else.
@fightingfortruth9806 Do you believe Mesoamerica is a land with a nation that is blessed above all others in the last days? This seems to be the biggest problem for me. Also, the Book of Mormon says the new Jerusalem will be built on this land. As far as I know, the D&C says the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri, not Mesoamerica. It seems to me this land mentioned in the Book of Mormon can only be Missouri and the eastern part of the United States.
l believe it happened in New York and Pennsylvania.
Great video!
Thank you!
Great video! thanks Zander!
What do you think of the 18th century Mexican priest Fray Servando Teresa de Mier? His research determined the first century Mexicans were Christian. He said the word Mexico derives from the Hebrew word Messiah.
There's some interesting stuff from early Spanish explorers and monks. The trick is trying to figure out how much they put their Christian ideas on their accounts.
That is the most absurd thing I've heard. Mechica does not mean messiah in the Aztec language.
This is an area where we have to be really careful and cautious in our research. It can be next to impossible to separate the real pre-Columbian accounts from later Spanish Christian influences. The Quetzalcoatl traditions of a "bearded white God" is just one such example. Brant Gardner has a section of his book devoted to that, explaining why we shouldn't use that as Book of Mormon evidence anymore.
@@kevindoorman362 the Aztecs were latecomers to Mexico. Fray Mier’s book “Apology and Relations of His Life Under the Title of Memoirs” refers to natives who had ancestors tracing back to the first century AD. Not the Aztecs.
@@zandersturgillFray Meier was exiled from Spanish Mexico for his heretical teachings about pre Columbian Christianity. The early Spanish monks were surprised to find local tribes who practiced circumcision.
Gonna take some heat for this one haha 😂
Yeah probably haha. But there’s not enough direct pro Mesoamerican content out there.
@ 100% agree! I’m glad you’re willing to do it. I just don’t think I’ve ever seen any church topic that angers a certain group of members like this topic does 😂
There is a narrow neck of land between the great lakes or inland seas that fit the east and west seas.
Central America's narrow land mass is easy to see on a map, but in reality, it takes days to cross and is not narrow enough to defend like the narrow neck between the great lakes.
There are no words translated as "lakes" or "seas" in the BoM. There is only one sea, called "the sea," which surrounds and frames the region.
The northern half of the narrow neck of land (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) lay under the seasonal Coatzacoalcos Floodplain. The more passable southern half, from the narrow pass (Chivela Pass) to the sea west (Pacific), was fortified by the Nephites.
@jeffreya.faulkner8367 See Alma 22:27 for the sea west and the sea east and a narrow strip of wilderness. The distance was a day and a half journey, see verse 32.
Good luck crossing any distance between the Pacific and Atlantic in 1 day and a half on foot.
All I need to know and do in life is follow God's restored church and His selected prophets. Anything else is a moot point as true evidence is discovered over time. People have erroneously left the church when certain "facts" didn't line up in the past. Yet those same concerns were fixed as more modern day truths and discoveries were revealed! All In all just focus on Christ and His restored truths and everything else will fall into place!
All the history would suggest that the book of mormon took place in Joseph Smith's inagination
It makes more sense to me to think it took place both in Mesoamerica and the Heartland.
(1) the NEMENHAH RECORDS (from the native Americans is a good start)
(2) Chief midegah of the ojibwe nation. And other chiefs coming forward.
All of North America (and some south)
Also, the Americas were mentioned in the ANG AKLATAN RECORDS found in the Philippines.
It's an interesting topic. Thanks.
The Nemenah records are a forgery and Chief Midegah is proven he is a liar.
Sorry, Bro. It's South America all the way.
Where are the thousands of swords? You mention stained swords? Where? Flocks of cattle, sheep, elephants. Where are they? Answer- we don’t know. What we know is the spiritual power of the book. Its purpose fulfilled to lead to Christ. Another- not the testament of Christ. All this is pure conjecture lad.
The Book of Mormon treats swords like it's a rare valuable item. I mentioned stained swords because that implies they were made of wood, since wood would stain more than metal. And when we look at ancient Maya history, they would pride themselves of their blood stained wooden Macuahuitls.
Why then is there no mention of monkeys? Lizards? Gators? Any ideas?
My guess is when the book mentions, "that there were beasts in the forests of every kind" that includes what you are referring to. But Nephi chose to specifically mention the animals he was more interested in.
unfortunately ... ( for the mesoamerica guys ) joseph smith ( the prophet of the restoration ) made it very clear.
it was in the heartland.
not mesoamerica.
@@grayman7208
I partly address this in the video. If it was that clear, then the church’s official essay would say it. I don’t think it’s as clear as heartlanders want it to be.
@zandersturgill Was Joseph Smith wrong when he told the brethren that they were walking across the plains of Nephi picking up their bones as evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity? Remember this happened happened during Zion's camp as they marched across Indiana and Illinois.
The Mayan civilization does not match the Book a Mormon time period. Plus, there is no hebrew DNA in Central America.
Well boys, time to pack up. Jonathon Bird has figured it out. 😢
Bruh “However, the Mayan empire was in full force between 250 A.D. and 900 A. D.” -Reference.com Pretty similar to the destruction of the Nephites ehh? If it doesn’t match the time period then tell me what does and we can get started. On you’re other note, they spilt off 2600 years ago, and dna tests have only been invented in the past hundred years, and if all humans originated from the old world then if you had a 100% accurate dna test then everyone could trace their lineage all the way back to Adam and Eve. Seeing how all other non-native but also native Americans whether they crossed the Bering straight or what not didn’t live in the Americas 6000 years ago… what am I even talking about anymore? I have throughly confused myself. Anyhow. Here is the POINT: There are no ‘true’ people of any culture having lived somewhere for more than a few thousand years so even if they once were Jewish, of course their test is gonna show up as Native American and not Jewish, especially since the Jewish dna has also changed a lot in 2000 years.
On a separate note, that’s why the American dialect is technically more British than the British’s “Received Pronunciation” because that originated as the proper British English after the colonies separated.
I am truly sorry. 😂 I like to rant…
Jonathan, look at the video of the tomb of the Hebrew king Malchia discovered in 2011: RUclips prompt: "Gold Plates discovered in ancient precolumbian tomb".
@@charlescoley6289 I don't think I said a single thing about having an issue with DNA.
I'm currently just packing up.
@@pauljacobson1283the “gold plates” that were debunked as being ancient BoM text a few months back?
If you understand 1 Nephi 13, you know where the Book of Mormon took place.
Exactly! And it ends the debate for me. Why do so many look beyond the mark.
Many other church members, including me, and including our current church leaders, don't interpret 1 Nephi 13 as pinpointing exactly where the Book of Mormon events took place. It can easily be interpreted as meaning the entire western hemisphere, not just the area of the current eastern USA (the USA in the late 1820s) or even not just the area east of the Appalachians (the USA during the Revolutionary War).
Also, it is entirely plausible that Lehi's seed, currently and also at the time the New World was discovered by the Europeans, was spread throughout much of the entire hemisphere. I actually believe strongly that this is the case. It also helps explain why many past church leaders referred to "Lehi's descendants" as being present in many countries in both North and South America. I also believe that the percentage contribution of Lehi's dna is too small to detect amongst current indigenous populations, due to the tiny fraction of the size of the immigrant population compared to the total pre-existing native population.
@philandrews2860 We don't have to interpret anything in 1 Nephi 13.
If we know where the land that is blessed above all others is in the last days and where a war took place between the gentiles and the mother gentiles on said land (the revolutionary war), we know where the Book of Mormon took place.
Again, no interpretation is needed. Simply accepting what the Book of Mormon says is all that is required.
At the very least, we know the land was on the eastern coast of the United States. This also matches the location where the plates were deposited.
@MarkHigbee I just read 1 Nephi 13, and it's petty clear that the chapter is talking about the the US in its early stages, but that doesn't mean that's where the main narrative of the Book of Mormon took place as well.
@@josephbradshaw7584 disagree
Honestly I stand with Joseph Smith Jr. on this one. I think we have a problem in the church where we think because of the elaborate cities constructed in MesoAmerica that it must be the place.
The truth is I don't hinge my faith in the Christ based on where the Book of Mormon took place.
Thanks for commenting. Hopefully my next video about some of Joseph Smith's statements will help.
Agreed that we should not hinge our faith on Book of Mormon geography. It's more of a 'nice to know' and not essential at all. I find it helpful though to have at least a certain amount of evidence for plausibility, which I believe we do. Certainly not 100% proof, which is expected due to the book's nature of divine origin.
Many, including myself, believe strongly that Joseph Smith, like all the other early church members, believed in a general hemispherical model, which lasted even until recent years amongst most church members. That model seems to have prevailed throughout much of the church's history. I believed in that model growing up, and everyone I knew of pretty much did also.
Awesome, now do why the Lord of the Rings fits perfectly into North Korea…. Since we’re fitting fact to fiction and all….. no… that is 0 historians that aren’t attached to the church can attribute any historical or geographic context to this work of absolute fiction. Yes JS could have based it upon a general area of geography but that’s a strain. Why no ironworks? Where are the swords and wheels? It’s hysterical. Agriculture en mass wasn’t a thing in MesoAmerica other than slash and burn and the “pre classic” context you hope to put it in is absolutely BS when dates for what we know are put it into consideration. BoM times is irrelevant since it’s basically like saying the time of the LOTR…. Yeah you could kinda date it into the European Feudal era but that’s not actually the specific time frame. I hate this goofy fraudulent religion and am irritated I had to be drug through it as a child
For every objection, there is a correlation. I'm sorry, but we are allowed to believe in this even if you disagree.
@ absolutely. You can believe in fairy tales and call it faith
@Jimmy2toes4u And you can call it whatever you want, but that's just you. I could call birds a myth, but I'm not the arbiter of objectivity.
After researching the topic of this video for over 30 years and having read many books on this topic, I have come to the exact opposite conclusion. The most glaring problem with the blanket statements you make is that they are all based on faulty assumptions. The biggest assumption you make is that a very small group of Old World immigrants could be expected to have a large enough cultural influence on the much larger pre-existing native cultures that one would be able to find such cultural influences in an area of the world that has a climate that is not at all conducive to artifact preservation and in which we've just barely scratched the surface as far as discoveries of pre-classic sites and artifacts go. Even if it weren't for the physical environmental reasons, one could still argue that how many of the Old World cultural influences would actually survive long enough to appear in often perishable artifacts and structures that weren't made of stone.
Call it fantasy if you will, but there is also plenty of plausible evidence that it is indeed an ancient record. Due to the divine nature of its appearance, we cannot expect to 'prove' it 100% to those who do not choose sincerely and willingly to meet the requirement for faith. That is how God intended it to be and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I don't expect non-LDS historians, anthropologists, and archaeologists to take the book seriously because of its divine origin and the implications of believing in its historicity. If it is a true historical record, the implications are huge: that Joseph Smith was inspired of God, that God exists, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, was resurrected, etc., etc.
@Jimmy2toes4u Wait, Lord of the Rings fits perfectly into North Korea? I’m a bit confused. For one thing, the ocean is East of Korea (and south), for Middle Earth it’s West.