The Ideal Parent Figure protocol (Brown & Elliot, 2016) is a beautiful, powerful and deeply emotional technique that uses the imaginal to repair attachment wounds. I find it so profound and useful in my practice. It touches me deeply every time. I had to make sure you're aware of it. IFS is also wonderful in similar ways. Love the discussion. I must find more time/priority for Vervaeke & co in my life.
Thank you so much for coming back to this topic!! Opening it up on After Socrates and continuing it with Seth Allison has been really so great. I feel like IFS is multiapt in the sense that it provides a grammar for even dealing with things like archetypes. It's a psychotechology that can be scaled down into the theraputic and up into to the theurgic. Theurgic in the sense that I think you mean when you use it. Really its all so convergent with the ideas and worldview you've been formulating. Obviously the convergence with other forms of thought like Platonism as you said is obvious. You deserve a lot of credit for bringing these things all together and in harmony. If we're in an axial age right now I truly think you're helping provide us the Socratic way we need.
Incredible conversation, thanks so much to both of you. This is my first introduction to Dr Mirzraie, it is so gratifying and reassuring and humbling to hear such good thinking. Of course I'd already gone through all of that with Vervaeke
This was deeply inspirational and encouraging. Some of it went over my head, so I will definitely rewatch it. I cannot wait to dig deeper into this way of integrating philosophy and psychology in a very practical sense. I am absolutely grateful to you two.
This is very rich, thank you both for bringing your passion and theoretical knowledge into an exciting dialogue. I am very appreciative as a trainee play therapist to hear the imaginal and spiritual moving with the cognition and embodied parts. I am moving with Winnicott and Whitehead at the moment. One wrote ‘Playing and Reality’ (Winnicott). The other wrote Process and Reality (Whitehead). Please continue with many more conversations.
Absolutely brilliant discussion. Thank you both. I am looking forward to seeing how IFS can be evolved and improved and I think you have a role to play in that John (and Seth Allison and Kasra). These dialogues are groundbreaking and are exactly what's needed. The question of how to get people to recognize modal confusion, avoiding self delusion, and weaving that into IFS feels like a potentially revolutionary practice.
1:23 isn't it presumptuous to imagine that we have a complete understanding of ultimate reality in the short period that we've even existed as a species, given that we don't have a complete picture of, say, the atom for example. That's brilliant and helpful
Dear John, another lovely dialogue. Thank you for introducing me to IFS, it has felt like a missing piece of my framing puzzle, that I did not know was even missing. The piece fits perfectly and creates a richer and practical painting that one can enter into to do the much needed work on ourselves. The way Kasra closed off the dialogue hit home: "Your voice and spirit fills my home and life" Haha, wow wat a wonderful compliment, and I feel the same way, as surely many more do. Thank you for being a great teacher and a deeply caring and inspirational person.
IFS is the only "technology" that has helped me unravel, untangle my anxiety, it helped me to transform two of my exiles and bring them to live with me in my body instead of them being locked away and suppressed in the past. What I really loved in IFS is the ritual part of healing the exiles. In one case I have burned sage leafs on my balcony and watched the smoke dissolve into the sky, and for the other exile I have chosen to flush some objects down the toilet. The important part is to keep Talking to the parts every Day, and thats what I do. Would it be fair to say that IFS can be a part of the narrative order?
Correction of book author? At 1:26:46 John mentions The Divine Matrix book as being written by Braken. I believe the correct name is Braden. Gregg Braden is the only author I found for that title. I almost skipped your preview of the Ultimate Reality God and Beyond course, but I'm glad I didn't, because it had some real tasty parts and you do a good job of pointing us to what the future holds on this shared Vervaeke path. Thank you John!!
I feel like IFS is good theory which bridges some idea to another, conflict resolution and restoration of inner peace. The inner peace is often regarded as otherwise too, however, it is effective to maintain integration of life. I think people who made harsh experiences also need to be changed, it is still true that inner peace is requirement.
Okay I think I get it from what you explained about the biological systems and now interesting to see how that links to Dr. ML. Interesting! Process as in dynamical systems theory. Interesting. Memory like the immune system?
I used to get mad at my school (no, I can't complain) The teachers who taught me weren't cool (no, I can't complain) You're holding me down (ah-ah) Turning me 'round (oh-oh) Filling me up with your rules (fool, you fool) I've got to admit it's getting better (better) A little better all the time (it can't get no worse) I have to admit it's getting better (better) It's getting better Since you've been mine
Psychotherapy has some level of success because people are social creatures, babies die without being touched and that doesn't just go away from growing up, it just gets more complex
The mind is an automatic machine... Whatever input we get/give by eyes, ears, imagination is like making the first domino fall and it's going to start a series of dominoes to fall one by one until a conclusion is reached... Any input starts a process in the mind to find a meaning for it... some are left ignored and incomplete in a sense of attention, but it still affects the mind... When one does not get the right meaning the mind spends more energy on it and a stress is generated... Sometimes the mind does not have a method to process the information for a conclusion becs of lack of wisdom or philosophical model, this causes like a over involvement of the mind to find ways to reach conclusion but it cannot so it tries to detach from arena to help facilitate internal journey to work on improving it.. And people in self deception with wrong model are finding answer where the answer does not exist.... This causes mind to baffle and a loss of proportion and the person starts to find himself meaningless.. The lack of right knowledge and relying on assumptions as thr only truth "unknowingly or knowingly" is like ignoring the demanding mind for a right answer is an internal murder of a part of our own self.... People can knowingly and unknowingly have an Inappropriate assumption becs of their desire to relate to a group of people so that his reality is not harmed... Else the ignorant society would abandon him...we have to act innocent with the innocent...
Remind and comes with comfort and to bring from within already ye all know? For many took away! Murmuring among themselves principalities who deceiveth and murderers sitting in high places unseen. Let us take away their given "i" AM image from all HIS SHARED Feet resting upon HIS Vineyards! Keep watch!
Pop John as ye know? I suppose not to call anyone a Father in front! But the "i" AM. To remind and comes with comfort unto all my Fathers shared "AM". If the little child born "i" comes unto thee! Will ye recognize?
Love you without shame but with boldness! My Own! My Beautiful and my Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM. For many unfamiliar Who sitteth? From afar EAST and from the west. Yes, who sitteth in Israel!
First born why ye all are great? Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM remind and comes with comfort in front! Thy first born entrusted to raised. Pop John for Who raised the little Child born "i" looking for HIM! Where is HE? Where is He? Where is He? Pop John as ye know in the midst of all the wise of this world and scribes surrounding about the little Child born "i" AM. Having sincere conversations as ye and thy Heirs shared "i" AM. To visit many who am I? Feet in front! Why to visit? Remember i will shake the heaven and the earth for my love for my shared "i" AM and shared Feet resting upon my Vineyards! Remember my Offsprings preserve from Thee all! And all my Meeks. Healed instead of "illness"! For some will say, to take, to steal, and given breads and fish to eat without asking for return! After fed! Riches beyond ye have before. Who keeps watch will say, but some will say HE IS ill! After fed! Pop John not you! But knows WHO? Yes, not till kiss the SON! Concerning! Heirs Hosts will say indeed!
Our beautiful Mothers have been accused! To look upon! The very least. Not special! Calls many names to downgrade in front! Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM will say, showed Himself unto thee 1st! Just know our Beautiful Mothers! For the little Child born "i" ye are holding is from Maria Virgin.
Sorry Kasra-- I realize that it is easier to define "self" as monad and then treat your partner as subjective other, slave or property, but that does not translate to entities living on Earth in 2024. I keep choosing your discussions with John because I have middle eastern ancestors but "monad" in vedic philosophy is formless... it rises between partners and is neither male or female because those words/containers belong to entities that are embodied within a linear timeline together. Spirit Hey Mark-- when Moses spoke to the "burning bush" it said "I am what I am..." It certainly didn't say "I am your father" or "I am your hairy Muslim cousin and your body belongs to me so fuck me baby..."
Good day, both of you beautiful minds, clear to my and to a lot of other people,this exchange was "prachtig"quality as always, in this dialogue you made us discover Kasra and you two made a beautiful picture,music, fabric, structure Thank you !
Nope. Just because you pay the rent-- does that make me your sex slave? I have a troll living in my apartment that thinks he deserves to grope me because he paid one month's internet bill................ Nope.
I'm in awe and admiration watching you both speak with each other. What a rich and articulate conversation about philosophy and it's connection to self and cognition. I feel the zone of proximal development unpacking your language and theories, so thank you both. I love how you've opened up a conversation about multiplicity as a way to relate to our complex selves, and also socially as a way to detach from narratively-ingrained stuck points at the root of the meta-crisis. If how we think and what we believe have influenced the status quo; what methods might unburden our collective systemic entrenchment? ... Agape? Validation? (This conversation gives me faith to get this movement more traction). Do you think the Awaken to Meaning group might "show" more of the "deceit-relieved" thought process, thus helping others to learn from example? Perhaps proximal development space could be created by those who have embodied these lessons and strengthened their minds and hearts in some way.
James hillman explores the convergence of the ideas of platonic archetypes and ifs’s style of interpschyic dialogue in a lot of his books. He profess the imperative of “personification” where you make archetypal entities into conversational agents. It seems like this conversation is tending towards taking the metaphysics of Jung and the therapeutic style of Ifs. Hillman might be a valuable resource to you John
Hello John, great conversations! I am following the IFS discussions and they are quite fascinating. One comment about your link in the notes for Attar's Parliament of the Birds (Simurgh). The edition you are including seems to be a modern retelling that is highly modified and it states that it has added elements for "diversity" 😬: > Ten primary birds have been revised and twenty more carefully studied and added to the characters for the purpose of diversity. The seven Spiritual Valleys of the original narrative have been replaced with the seven continents of the world for simplification I am not too conservative as a person but modifying Attar's mystical symbolism in this way seems off. Do let me know if you have read it and you find it to be an insightful retelling. I have started reading one that stays close to the original (with the challenges and benefits that this would imply): The Speech of the Birds: Mantiqu't-Tair (Islamic Texts Society)
My Heir Hosts Kasra thy Heirs Hosts will say, ye are worth RESPECTING, HONORING, LOVING, AND GIVING MY LIFE FOR A FRIEND KIND OF LOVE. What else Heirs Hosts? Thy shared "i" AM. Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Judgment and Justice thy Shared "i" AM sitting upon! Well said!
I suggest when we determine ontological attribution to certain kind of writing or so, if it is associated with past painful experiences, it is often associated with "retraining" and not to use of common sense of certain scope of time or era, to apply generalized way, with dynamic nature of how one is considered as "interesting character". For instance, if we follow merely common sense of that era, we fail to predict the aimed one's personality. The common sense of that era can be changed by many factors, such as news coverage, so we can approve there are conceptual practice to consider someone's personality, there would be dynamics each individual's life pathology. For PC analogy we can say this to this: there are many functions of how to quit program, e.g. ALT+F4, x button click, Exit menuitem under the File menu, etc, it is different by different applications. Another example is that even when UEFI firmware has backup chip, if both UEFI chips are hacked, restoration fails. This is analogy why we have to learn conceptual functions and not to use it too easily. IFS is amazing system to consider this situation and it is motivatory in this video.
Great chemistry betweent the two, so much passion, i really hope to hear more from Mirzaie!
The Ideal Parent Figure protocol (Brown & Elliot, 2016) is a beautiful, powerful and deeply emotional technique that uses the imaginal to repair attachment wounds. I find it so profound and useful in my practice. It touches me deeply every time. I had to make sure you're aware of it. IFS is also wonderful in similar ways. Love the discussion. I must find more time/priority for Vervaeke & co in my life.
I’m so glad I’ve come across your conversations. I’m loving the insights.
Thank you so much for coming back to this topic!! Opening it up on After Socrates and continuing it with Seth Allison has been really so great. I feel like IFS is multiapt in the sense that it provides a grammar for even dealing with things like archetypes. It's a psychotechology that can be scaled down into the theraputic and up into to the theurgic. Theurgic in the sense that I think you mean when you use it. Really its all so convergent with the ideas and worldview you've been formulating. Obviously the convergence with other forms of thought like Platonism as you said is obvious. You deserve a lot of credit for bringing these things all together and in harmony. If we're in an axial age right now I truly think you're helping provide us the Socratic way we need.
Thank you. Your kind words are very encouraging.
Incredible conversation, thanks so much to both of you. This is my first introduction to Dr Mirzraie, it is so gratifying and reassuring and humbling to hear such good thinking. Of course I'd already gone through all of that with Vervaeke
This was deeply inspirational and encouraging. Some of it went over my head, so I will definitely rewatch it. I cannot wait to dig deeper into this way of integrating philosophy and psychology in a very practical sense. I am absolutely grateful to you two.
Keep the IFS coming. Thank you
This is very rich, thank you both for bringing your passion and theoretical knowledge into an exciting dialogue. I am very appreciative as a trainee play therapist to hear the imaginal and spiritual moving with the cognition and embodied parts. I am moving with Winnicott and Whitehead at the moment. One wrote ‘Playing and Reality’ (Winnicott). The other wrote Process and Reality (Whitehead). Please continue with many more conversations.
Absolutely brilliant discussion. Thank you both. I am looking forward to seeing how IFS can be evolved and improved and I think you have a role to play in that John (and Seth Allison and Kasra). These dialogues are groundbreaking and are exactly what's needed. The question of how to get people to recognize modal confusion, avoiding self delusion, and weaving that into IFS feels like a potentially revolutionary practice.
[18:11] Kasra’s comparison of Kant and Vervaeke, alone, makes this episode worth watching
What a beautiful man, how right and just it is that a person like him works as a guide for people in crisis
I'll need to listen to this again.
Thank you. Had my first IFS session today.
Lovely conversation. So much in this conversation.
Brilliant conversation. Thanks to you both 🙏
1:23 isn't it presumptuous to imagine that we have a complete understanding of ultimate reality in the short period that we've even existed as a species, given that we don't have a complete picture of, say, the atom for example. That's brilliant and helpful
Dear John, another lovely dialogue. Thank you for introducing me to IFS, it has felt like a missing piece of my framing puzzle, that I did not know was even missing. The piece fits perfectly and creates a richer and practical painting that one can enter into to do the much needed work on ourselves. The way Kasra closed off the dialogue hit home: "Your voice and spirit fills my home and life" Haha, wow wat a wonderful compliment, and I feel the same way, as surely many more do. Thank you for being a great teacher and a deeply caring and inspirational person.
IFS is the only "technology" that has helped me unravel, untangle my anxiety, it helped me to transform two of my exiles and bring them to live with me in my body instead of them being locked away and suppressed in the past. What I really loved in IFS is the ritual part of healing the exiles. In one case I have burned sage leafs on my balcony and watched the smoke dissolve into the sky, and for the other exile I have chosen to flush some objects down the toilet. The important part is to keep Talking to the parts every Day, and thats what I do. Would it be fair to say that IFS can be a part of the narrative order?
Love your work
Where can we sign up for these classes through the Vervaeke Foundation? Didn't find them on the website
Correction of book author? At 1:26:46 John mentions The Divine Matrix book as being written by Braken. I believe the correct name is Braden. Gregg Braden is the only author I found for that title. I almost skipped your preview of the Ultimate Reality God and Beyond course, but I'm glad I didn't, because it had some real tasty parts and you do a good job of pointing us to what the future holds on this shared Vervaeke path. Thank you John!!
Angels who persevere and heard the WORD and Heirs Hosts will say, will be great!
I feel like IFS is good theory which bridges some idea to another, conflict resolution and restoration of inner peace. The inner peace is often regarded as otherwise too, however, it is effective to maintain integration of life. I think people who made harsh experiences also need to be changed, it is still true that inner peace is requirement.
Thank you
How is the self a process? Please help me understand.
Okay I think I get it from what you explained about the biological systems and now interesting to see how that links to Dr. ML. Interesting! Process as in dynamical systems theory. Interesting. Memory like the immune system?
Psycho dynamic 9:30
I used to get mad at my school (no, I can't complain)
The teachers who taught me weren't cool (no, I can't complain)
You're holding me down (ah-ah)
Turning me 'round (oh-oh)
Filling me up with your rules (fool, you fool)
I've got to admit it's getting better (better)
A little better all the time (it can't get no worse)
I have to admit it's getting better (better)
It's getting better
Since you've been mine
Psychotherapy has some level of success because people are social creatures, babies die without being touched and that doesn't just go away from growing up, it just gets more complex
after over a decade being duped by therapy this was my only takeaway^
The mind is an automatic machine... Whatever input we get/give by eyes, ears, imagination is like making the first domino fall and it's going to start a series of dominoes to fall one by one until a conclusion is reached... Any input starts a process in the mind to find a meaning for it... some are left ignored and incomplete in a sense of attention, but it still affects the mind...
When one does not get the right meaning the mind spends more energy on it and a stress is generated...
Sometimes the mind does not have a method to process the information
for a conclusion becs of lack of wisdom or philosophical model, this causes like a over involvement of the mind to find ways to reach conclusion but it cannot so it tries to detach from arena to help facilitate internal journey to work on improving it..
And people in self deception with wrong model are finding answer where the answer does not exist.... This causes mind to baffle and a loss of proportion and the person starts to find himself meaningless..
The lack of right knowledge and relying on assumptions as thr only truth "unknowingly or knowingly" is like ignoring the demanding mind for a right answer is an internal murder of a part of our own self....
People can knowingly and unknowingly have an Inappropriate assumption becs of their desire to relate to a group of people so that his reality is not harmed... Else the ignorant society would abandon him...we have to act innocent with the innocent...
Remind and comes with comfort and to bring from within already ye all know? For many took away! Murmuring among themselves principalities who deceiveth and murderers sitting in high places unseen. Let us take away their given "i" AM image from all HIS SHARED Feet resting upon HIS Vineyards! Keep watch!
Pop John as ye know? I suppose not to call anyone a Father in front! But the "i" AM. To remind and comes with comfort unto all my Fathers shared "AM". If the little child born "i" comes unto thee! Will ye recognize?
Love you without shame but with boldness! My Own! My Beautiful and my Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM. For many unfamiliar Who sitteth? From afar EAST and from the west. Yes, who sitteth in Israel!
First born come forth!
Nor some will say Miriam nor Mary.
First born why ye all are great? Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM remind and comes with comfort in front! Thy first born entrusted to raised. Pop John for Who raised the little Child born "i" looking for HIM! Where is HE? Where is He? Where is He? Pop John as ye know in the midst of all the wise of this world and scribes surrounding about the little Child born "i" AM. Having sincere conversations as ye and thy Heirs shared "i" AM. To visit many who am I? Feet in front! Why to visit? Remember i will shake the heaven and the earth for my love for my shared "i" AM and shared Feet resting upon my Vineyards! Remember my Offsprings preserve from Thee all! And all my Meeks. Healed instead of "illness"! For some will say, to take, to steal, and given breads and fish to eat without asking for return! After fed! Riches beyond ye have before. Who keeps watch will say, but some will say HE IS ill! After fed! Pop John not you! But knows WHO? Yes, not till kiss the SON! Concerning! Heirs Hosts will say indeed!
Our beautiful Mothers have been accused! To look upon! The very least. Not special! Calls many names to downgrade in front! Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM will say, showed Himself unto thee 1st! Just know our Beautiful Mothers! For the little Child born "i" ye are holding is from Maria Virgin.
🪁
😁👍
Z
Sorry Kasra-- I realize that it is easier to define "self" as monad and then treat your partner as subjective other, slave or property, but that does not translate to entities living on Earth in 2024. I keep choosing your discussions with John because I have middle eastern ancestors but "monad" in vedic philosophy is formless... it rises between partners and is neither male or female because those words/containers belong to entities that are embodied within a linear timeline together. Spirit
Hey Mark-- when Moses spoke to the "burning bush" it said "I am what I am..."
It certainly didn't say "I am your father" or "I am your hairy Muslim cousin and your body belongs to me so fuck me baby..."
Good day, both of you beautiful minds, clear to my and to a lot of other people,this exchange was "prachtig"quality as always, in this dialogue you made us discover Kasra and you two made a beautiful picture,music, fabric, structure Thank you !
“The self as that which homes otherness.” Absolutely beautiful. I felt that one
Nope. Just because you pay the rent-- does that make me your sex slave? I have a troll living in my apartment that thinks he deserves to grope me because he paid one month's internet bill................ Nope.
I'm in awe and admiration watching you both speak with each other. What a rich and articulate conversation about philosophy and it's connection to self and cognition. I feel the zone of proximal development unpacking your language and theories, so thank you both.
I love how you've opened up a conversation about multiplicity as a way to relate to our complex selves, and also socially as a way to detach from narratively-ingrained stuck points at the root of the meta-crisis. If how we think and what we believe have influenced the status quo; what methods might unburden our collective systemic entrenchment? ... Agape? Validation? (This conversation gives me faith to get this movement more traction).
Do you think the Awaken to Meaning group might "show" more of the "deceit-relieved" thought process, thus helping others to learn from example? Perhaps proximal development space could be created by those who have embodied these lessons and strengthened their minds and hearts in some way.
wow. so exited to see an iranian talking to vervaeke. barikala kasra. go strong.
James hillman explores the convergence of the ideas of platonic archetypes and ifs’s style of interpschyic dialogue in a lot of his books. He profess the imperative of “personification” where you make archetypal entities into conversational agents. It seems like this conversation is tending towards taking the metaphysics of Jung and the therapeutic style of Ifs. Hillman might be a valuable resource to you John
Hello John, great conversations! I am following the IFS discussions and they are quite fascinating. One comment about your link in the notes for Attar's Parliament of the Birds (Simurgh). The edition you are including seems to be a modern retelling that is highly modified and it states that it has added elements for "diversity" 😬:
> Ten primary birds have been revised and twenty more carefully studied and added to the characters for the purpose of diversity. The seven Spiritual Valleys of the original narrative have been replaced with the seven continents of the world for simplification
I am not too conservative as a person but modifying Attar's mystical symbolism in this way seems off. Do let me know if you have read it and you find it to be an insightful retelling. I have started reading one that stays close to the original (with the challenges and benefits that this would imply):
The Speech of the Birds: Mantiqu't-Tair (Islamic Texts Society)
My Heir Hosts Kasra thy Heirs Hosts will say, ye are worth RESPECTING, HONORING, LOVING, AND GIVING MY LIFE FOR A FRIEND KIND OF LOVE. What else Heirs Hosts? Thy shared "i" AM. Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Judgment and Justice thy Shared "i" AM sitting upon! Well said!
I suggest when we determine ontological attribution to certain kind of writing or so, if it is associated with past painful experiences, it is often associated with "retraining" and not to use of common sense of certain scope of time or era, to apply generalized way, with dynamic nature of how one is considered as "interesting character". For instance, if we follow merely common sense of that era, we fail to predict the aimed one's personality. The common sense of that era can be changed by many factors, such as news coverage, so we can approve there are conceptual practice to consider someone's personality, there would be dynamics each individual's life pathology.
For PC analogy we can say this to this: there are many functions of how to quit program, e.g. ALT+F4, x button click, Exit menuitem under the File menu, etc, it is different by different applications. Another example is that even when UEFI firmware has backup chip, if both UEFI chips are hacked, restoration fails. This is analogy why we have to learn conceptual functions and not to use it too easily.
IFS is amazing system to consider this situation and it is motivatory in this video.
Students will say life is conversations! How's thy conversations given just for thee all?