I think the emphasis on metal in SA is actually killing the scene in the sense that everyone is so worried about heavy music dying in SA that everone makes similar sounding music(not that our bands are bad at all) so theres no diversity genre wise in turn hurting the scene way more than helping it
oof, this is a very sensitive topic. loving it though. I, personally, feel having more open events, instead of just genre or subgenre specific ones are a lot better coz it opens everyone up to bands/musicians/artists they wouldn't even bother checking out. The crowds mingle and intertwine and it just makes the scene a better place over all coz you don't gatekeep your shows, but that's just how i feel. for example, being in Boiling Point (hardcore band) when we organise shows, we aren't gonna have a bill of JUST hardcore bands, we'll have indie, punk, prog, death metal, you name it coz we want the scene to grow as a whole. Being in "the scene" shouldn't mean you just support YOUR specific genre, be it metal, punk, etc, you should support the scene as a whole coz at the end of the day, your metal band will have some of your closest friends at those shows and they support you even though they might not even be into metal, they might be into hip hop or indie so why not have shows that's open for everyone? i'm just saying hehe
Yeh, mixed lineups are genuinely a good way to introduce people to new sub genres and bands of course. I know this is how we try and keep things fresh. It is tough though because folks seem to want that idealistic only hardcore or only metal type show, which is understandable. As someone who's set up shows for decades now, it's impossible to have your perfect lineup as there's always bands you'd maybe like to play alongside who just can't make the date etc.
@@ashleydebeer3893 Do you think it boils down to the fact that there just aren't enough bands in those Sub-genres? I don't envy your position of being an organizer at all. What the audience wants can 100% be cursed.
@marcelsmuts2197 probably not enough bands. I mean, consider you're playing 2 shows per weekend... how many bands in any said region? You really do need to consider diverse lineups. Personally I'm not opposed to that at all, it's been so rad jamming shows with so many different styles and just soaking in variety. If you ask those close to me, I suffer from listening to heavy music exclusively all night for a full show. It's just too much auditory heaviness for me, so its nice to break it up. Even changing the music to alternative rock during band changeover is helpful for me, for the audience. As much as shows are about the bands, the music... there's also a social scene aspect of attending and for that you need background music between bands, which also serves the point of elevating the actual performing band when they do start playing. In many instances, cross country... I think guys who attend punk shows, attend hardcore and metal shows. So there's definitely cross pollination there, which is good. These scenes are connected through friendship and through music.
After touring Germany last year with Mean Girls, the worst part of coming back to the SA scene is the lacklustre venues and sound (for the most part, there are some exceptions). But looking at the punk scene over there I still think we have something really special going on in SA, whether it be metal, punk or any alternative style of music. I think despite our lack of infrastructure people here still really love what they do and put their all into it. The energy at gigs here is something different and people mostly do music here because they love it, not because they know they can make a living or play big gigs. Great video man, thanks!
I personally feel that since Barney Simon's evening show on 5FM where he showcased the local rock and metal scene went the way of the Dodo...the scene took a nosedive as visibility declined. Who remembers this from BS's opening jingle: "Watch out...he's coming through the dooooooor.... BRILLIANT! HE DIDNT EVEN OPEN IT!!!!! "
I caught the tail end of Barney Simons run promoting local alternative music and even then i think i was a little to young to understand and wasn't fully involved in alternative music. A lot of the time i feel like i missed the geniune hey-day of the SA Alt scene🥲 It'd be great to see a successor to Barney's show and I'd love to have him on the show one day. -Marcel
Heavy music was always tiny, even in Joburg. I remember it well. A band might be huge at a festival one night, then struggle to draw more than a handful of people the next night. @@sludgeunderground
@@bryanmcdougall6973 Oh yes...I remember it. I had a single tape deck in my room, and I used to stay awake until it aired just so I could record it and make one large horror cassette.
I grew up as a teenager in the late 80s and 90s and live music was such a huge part of my growing up. I originally came from East London and then moved to Cape Town and both had a massive live music scene - heavy, rock, grunge, alternative, numetal, rap, indie, industrial, punk, folk, reggae, etc. There were always a couple of nights during the week and always the weekend that bands would play. It was such a great time - and people would happily see an indie band, then a punk band, followed by something heavier later and then finally end up at a rave until the morning and finally go home listening to some rap going home. People just seemed to love live music and could appreciate all genres as long as it was good and your genre wasn't left out. And SA had (and still has) a massive pool of talent. We had great bands with loads of promise (and still do). And it was a fantastic time to learn to appreciate all music, socialise and generally get out of the house. And then suddenly, it all disappeared. And I don't know why? All those bands disappeared or went underground and all the venues closed up (I wouldn't even know where you would go to see a small live band playing). And I would understand if it was a global trend but it wasn't. Live music is still huge everywhere else in the world. Maybe it was the death of buying an album and streaming and bands then relying on making a living from touring and selling merch. Bands in the US and Europe could do that as there are so many places to play but in SA, bands are limited to places they can play, too many genres in such a small country and local record companies who have no interest or potential in making money with local bands. You might say, what about Australia and how do they do it? But they are a first world country with a lot of exposure to international cultures and trends and interaction with well known artists. And they have the money still to support local music as they can see the potential for successful artists. But this is only my theory so don't take this as gospel. It's an interesting topic to chat about and glad you brought it up. I do really hope things change. I still believe that South Africans are crying out for more live music in all genres. Green Day and Offspring are playing in Cape Town this month (yes, I know they are not metal) and over 70,000 people are going. But that still proves that we love live music! And like I said, we have the talent, we simply need the exposure and promotion.
I was the resident sound engineer in two popular "underground music" venues in Durbanville (Northern Suburbs of Cape Town) from around 2008 - 2016. I mixed hundreds of bands ranging from rock, hard rock, and various genres of metal. The main problem is venues, not the number of bands out there - there are not many venues for all these bands to play in so the only other stage for them was at festivals, and then they had to be good enough to be invited to play them. Even then, there weren't that many festivals going that catered for heavy music.
Love the new format! I think that the metal scene in SA is in a pretty good place (as good as can be after 2020) speaking from a POV from someone who has been in the scene since 2014, it changed and evolved over the years. Yes venues closing down is a big issue, and that makes it difficult. But I think it's gonna enter into a new era pretty soon. Mixed genres events is a great way of coming together as a scene, even if the subgenres don't mix too well. What I love about SA metal is that the bands are really dedicated to grow not just their brand but the scene as a whole, we went touring in KZN in December and it was such a vibe, from a Jozi mindset there was clear differences like venues being small and sound not always being top tier. Yet we played in places like Toti where apparently live metal hasn't happened before. I think if we as artists take those risks and go out of our way to bring the music across the nation. As well as market it correctly things will get better. However there is a big gap in the ad/marketing sphere, we used to have things like MK and ondergrond. But with these outlets being gone it's up to the bands and organisers to market towards the public. I believe that with colaboration and pure passion we can drive the scene to boom!
Mixed genre events aren't inherently bad, it only becomes an issue when it's the only option. I 100% agree that we're on our way to a new era and I'm super hopeful that it'll be a positve one. The gap in marketing/advertising is a way bigger hole than most realise but the unfortunate issue is how big of a risk it'd be in terms of profitability. Collobaration and passion are absolutely the key at this point
Imo the metal scene was the best from 2008- 2017. But especially the best time was 2013-17,there was resurge and explosion in the scene with a massive following and new bands writing and releasing awesome music in that time,and credit to all those people in the scene that worked behind the scenes to grow the scene and put on amazing events in that time,they not only worked hard to get metal bands play in venuas all over but also host big events in places like town halls . I still hear people talk about those couple years as the best time in the scene.
I only started being actively involved in the scene from about 2013/14 and the yeah the vibe of it definitely made fall inlove with the scene. I do still feel like i caught the tail end of the scene. Suppose thats part of the reason I'm so passionate about trying to help it along and shine light on it.
In all honesty I might start doing more short formed videos like this if the content allows it. This video I can tell is gonna be a hit. Please PLEASE make a video on the history of south African metal!!!!
Speaking of which, that little atmospheric black metal scene in Cape Town that produced the incredible bands Wildernessking, Crow Black Sky and Constellatia is pretty much unknown. All three of those bands are way more well known overseas than they are in SA. That has always bothered me. ps. Constellatia (which has members of Crow Black Sky and Wildernessking) is signed to the well known record label Season of Mist. Crow Black Sky is still going strong, they released their 3rd album Sidereal Light: Vol 2 last year. The lead singer of CBS is also the lead singer of the excellent doom metal "supergroup" Orphean Passage (which consists of members of Mind Assault, A Walk With the Wicked, CBS, Gramlich and Devilspeak)
All said bands are incredibly good, genuinely amazing musicianship and songwriting overall. I think perhaps in their cases, very likely all 3 bands you mentioned... there's a deeper sense that the bands are more focused on playing very specific theatrical type showcase shows that they themselves book, market and manage overall. It does come across very much as though these bands are deliberately outside of the more "scene" type weekly shows. Which makes sense when you consider the production these bands are putting into their shows, all a massive aspect that takes serious time and serious planning. Amazing bands though, and perhaps I read their situation wrong, though it does seem to be that way when you look at their shows and how they market everything, which in itself is really cool, fully respect that.
Super cool to find other South African RUclipsrs. You have brought up some excellent points. Elitism and gatekeeping sucks and ruins everything. I think the diversity of Metal is what makes it beautiful. I'm a filthy poser Core-kid. So too heavy for pop audiences, not heavy enough for the black metal guys. But if we don't have more diverse shows, we don't have shows. As someone who works in the more "commercial" side of the music industry, I find a ton of the session guys and people arranging the live shows love heavy music. Even in the afrikaans sokkie music vibes, solos are coming back, halftime grooves and big tweaks to the songs when It comes to live shows. This doesn't change the fact that Heavy music is a niche. Lables are all about live shows, because that's where the money is. So pitching a band that will struggle to fill a venue is a problem. That's why heavier music have a beautiful home here on RUclips. My journey has led me to working as a session musician in the 'pop' industry and making metal here on RUclips. Having an audience outside of SA is one way to mitigate the problem at least a little.
I released music that's not as heavy as some bands mentioned here and I'm constantly on the verge of just giving up. It's just me and playing live is a very distant thought. It would help so much to have heavier music on more mainstream platforms. Even if it's just an hour on Goodhope FM. That would help so much and get eyes and ears on more local bands
Loved the video and the new format dude. "Disease that must not be named" did a number on the SA music scene as a whole - I think unfortunately the heavy music scene has always been the runt of the litter, and subsequently, suffered the most - sadly. That said, there are definitely reasons to be optimistic. The Wacken Finals last year was a testament to this - the talent of the bands, the production quality of the event and the overall gees was really something to be proud of.
I think the Covid scenario played a major role in bringing a lot of bands to an end for sure - changing the landscape. This had its own knock on effect, in that brand new lesser experienced bands were casting themselves into a field with very little to no guidance; really figuring a lot of it out alone. So a lot of the inexperience seen these days is a case of bands just not having had any torch passed to them. I think recognizing these issues is helpful as well, because it takes the issue and at least gives it a "name", to which anyone who's facing this can address it and educate themselves (the band) to get what was perhaps lost along the way. Recognizing the issue also removes the sting and places everyone's headspace more towards figuring it out and getting better at whatever you're looking to achieve with music.
Making heavy music in South Africa is doing life on hardcore mode. There’s just too much to cover in a single comment, but cliques arise and egos often get in the way. I’ll also say there’s a huge amount of Dunning-Kruger, and you can read that as “delusion” with a lot of people and “musicians” who have zero self awareness when it comes to the quality and relevance of the material they create. Thing is, people don’t like unpleasant conversations, they don’t like criticism, and they like to hold the hegemony when it comes to who the “in” group is and who is left on the periphery. I will also say I’m guilty of a lot of the behaviour you’ve described here, but I’ve since changed my attitude and it’s been very beneficial. In truth, none of it is invalid, and nobody has the authority to say what is and isn’t allowed. I guess I’ll finish off by saying that making good, heavy music is hard work, mostly thankless and even harder to do with people who are capable and not psychopaths or narcissists (you can’t do it). Ultimately, the best musicians and bands do it because they love it and don’t care about the many obvious downsides - they really are the true heroes of the SA music scene, so kudos to all of them (and there are many). Great video guys!
Great vid. What’s your vibe on the scene almost being a generational thing? MTV /MK89 etc… pushing the scene and giving it exposure. Now those are kinda gone. I know for a fact, places like Cool Runnings, Tempos, Olive Lounge etc… in instances, eventfully got snuffed out due to dodge location and residential areas expanding to those areas which ultimately led to “noise complaints” etc… which is crazy… that’s what I saw. I don’t even know what today’s kids are doing these days? Are they even doing anything? Anyways, loved being there when it was booming. The Chromium days etc… miss it. So Nostalgic and memories i don’t think any of us will ever forget. When I was there, the scene was also amazing. Accepting to all walks of life that gathered together for the joint love of something. Hard to find these days. Great video
One of my theories is that a lot of the guys who were doing those things didn't have anyone to pass the torch to. Everyone kinda just expected them to be around forever so very few people were making new platforms, When the big guys stepped down and moved on with their lives for whatever reasons they left a vaccum that no-one whad the means to fill and it all kind just collapsed. The kids today are doing some unbelievably cool things ,its easy not to think so with how a lot of people talk about the scene but theres crazy talent out there at the moment! -Marcel
@@sludgeunderground I think your theory there is bang-on. Definitely not many guys to hand it over to. Facing the Gallows definitely tried to carry the torch and did very well. Just not many others there to support and carry. I dig your theory. Agreed. Definitely loads of talent out there today. I think more-so from an influencer perspective (when looking at music) and less-so out and about in performing bands. Just wish there was another revival of venues supporting the metal scene again. Sognage in JHB keeping a heartbeat going for sure. I’m sure there are others too. Very hard to monetise the creative industry (no matter the form), so I guess the peeps doing it online have cottoned-on to the cash that can be earned on social platforms vs jamming at a venue. Have a rad weekend.
Well said! I also think that the lack of venues hinder bands from performing. I noticed a lot of CT bands called things quits during the mentioned "global event." thankfully some bands have picked things up again, but we'll never have our old favourite venues back. Day fests seem to be the thing, when it comes to mashing a bunch of genres together, and then the location doesn't always really matter, but for weekly events? In this economy?
I think so many bands across the country called it quits during that time. There are so many venues that were like second homes to some of us. You've been on the front lines for years at this point and I'd love to have you on the show sometime to chat about your time in the scene.
Got into the scene in Durban 23 years ago. Looking back, it appeared promising, alternative music was on the radio, and TV! There were promoters and record labels, and a few good venues, even some commercial venues would host metal/rock/punk shows. Like I say, promising. But even after a few years the reverbing rumours were that it was dying, and it did... or did it? it never really has, and I don't believe it will. Sure, those venues, promoters and labels have all but faded but the bands and fans are still out there. We only have fewer places to go. It's unfortunate, at least in Durbs, that there is less infrastructure, as you put it, but music is art, and you can't stop the want to create nor to consume that art. SO glad this video found me. Local is lekker, my bru. Liked and subscribed and all that stuff. Looking forward to your most contentious video!
Dope video dude, loving how you went into this with genuine investigative-journalist, true-neutral alignment vibes. Looking forward to seeing more content, my guy!
Also not as many festivals attracting international Metal. Krankd up Fest was one…. And has been dead since 2018/19. Used to attract top metal bands back in the day.
It has to be said, the way in which bands HAVE TO whore themselves out nowadays to get people to a show has become pretty gross. We're musicians who have to parade ourselves around on Instagram videos like we're monkeys in a circus, just to get a few extra likes on a post ("because the algorithm"), which may or may not reflect directly on actual show attendance. Fake smiles + get your tickets + buy our merch type videos... Fuck it. It's the marketing side that absolutely sucks, trying to stay relevant... I mean, relevant, wtf is that even? We're musicians, not actors and actresses. I think there's a deep frustration with so many of us because as bands (maybe just us, who knows) we're all becoming inauthentic - purely to market a show. I mean, nothing wrong with inviting people to attend a show in a video... it's the clowning around, fully scripted videos that bands feel the need to do that are starting to feel distasteful and actually just not a measure of the people in the bands. Not even calling anyone out specifically, because it's all of us at one or more points. It's distressing and outta character. There's an aspect of show marketing that's just really inauthentic and soul destroying. Do I want folks to come see my band or listen to our music, 100% yes - there just has to be a better way to make that happen. Our lyrics, imagery and everything about our music is not funny at all, we're not comedians and neither are most of the bands in the general alternative scene - Yet, we're all selling ourselves as though we're some discount comedians. Metal, hardcore, punk, death metal are all mostly almost exclusively pissed off and angry scenes... yet, nobody seems pissed about a damn thing? We're all just smiling while we're dying inside filming 20 second video clips to "market" our bands. People used to attend shows because the music they heard ripped hard, and they wanted to throw down in a pit or exist within the culture of that scene. THE COMMON THREAD WAS THE MUSIC, now it's IG followers, FB likes, what you filmed/edited your video with, what filter you used, what transitions you used, how many people shared your story. All of which has near zero to do with why musicians write, create, perform music in the first place. And when you say something about it, folks say - well yeh, that's the world we live and if you want people at the shows, you gotta do it. Then there's the competitive nature of marketing video content... if it's filmed on a phone you're instantly noted as shite? Like, fuck man, are we musicians marketing music or are we videographers, animators and video editors? Just come to a show and throat punch your best friend in the pit, like the good old days. Simpler times. When everything fades, the music should still be worth something to those who created it, those who in that experience. I'm not saying video documenting, music videos and such have no place in music. Clearly, it's a very cool aspect of it all that we all love. However, viewing something is starting to overshadow listening to something, and by listening I really mean listening. Real people are trying to express themselves through music, there's a voice, there's a sound that should touch your inner being when you hear music you enjoy. I could watch my favourite bands play their music on broken gear if they did it with absolute passion and meant every word. People lost their minds watching Comeback Kid play at The Winston on a tiny stage with very run down PA equipment... you can't deny how special that was for anyone who attended. We're all going about this a very wrong way. I don't know the solutions, but we're on the wrong path, and I know this because it feels inauthentic and disposable in a culture that should be the gold standard for authenticity.
There’s a South African podcast I was watching that focuses on mainstream artists, and what they said regarding promoting is that artists aren’t obligated to promote an event, that’s what promoters are for. They went as far as saying mainstream artists even charge a separate fee if you want them to punt your event on their pages because they’re giving you access to their followers, and you’re asking them to do a promoter’s job. Now obviously, the alt scene isn’t generating the kinda money mainstream is generating, and the argument for the alt scene is ‘community’, bands share the event because we’re all pushing for the same thing, which is fair enough, but I’d argue that you as an individual would have every right to tell someone who’s booking you, that you’ll play the show but won’t be able to make content around it, because as you say, it’s an entirely different job on its own. Sure, you may be labelled as being difficult to work with, but it sounds like you’re disgruntled at the way things are, so it’s a worthy tradeoff for peace of mind, especially when you have valid reasoning as to why you’d rather not promote, it’s simply not your job, your job is to entertain the crowd by playing your music at the event, as a musician that’s what your fee should cover, plus expenses. Bands promoting events should be nothing more than an act of camaraderie, not an obligation. In fact a simple share regarding the event should suffice, not an entire production video😂. The part about inauthenticity is tricky because there’s no hard rule as to how you should promote your ‘content’. Just because a walk these skies, or an indie dog puts up jovial videos, doesn’t mean you have to do that too, not sure who set this expectation because it’s inaccurate. In fact, you need not even post videos just because everyone else is posting them. If you feel compelled to post a video, it’s in your best interest not to do it just because x band is doing it and doing it a certain way, people can tell if something isn’t genuine. If there’s a lineup consisting of 5 bands, it’s okay to be the one band that uploads the poster with a caption telling people to check you out that evening or even share it to your story, especially if 4 of the other bands are also going to be promoting the event and uploading videos acting the fool. If it’s draining your soul and doesn’t feel right, don’t force yourself to do it, do whatever is in line with your way of doing things. I used to run the Thorns IG when we were still active, I literally used to either create or share the poster accompanied by one of our photos, and wrote a caption, and the shows were still well attended. Not because of thorns of course😂, but because of everyone’s contribution, and just because the other band’s contribution was posting a ‘funny’ reel, didn’t mean I had to do the same. If there’s a fear that anything other than ‘funny’ videos won’t slap or won’t be received well, and if you feel like must post/upload, you can always just upload and promote the post, or hire a social media manager if it’s an aspect you feel is super important for the band but just aren’t enjoying it. There are people out there that enjoy the hell out of your band’s music, and I’m certain that they’d be okay with you posting something akin to your gratitude post, which was genuine and sincere, vs one where the band is trying to be funny, but deep down that just isn’t who you guys are. It might work for the bands that do it because they’re just crazy in general😄, there’s running inside jokes amongst some of the bands because that’s who they are, chill guys that aren’t that serious, but if that isn’t your kinda sense of humour, don’t feel compelled to follow what they’re doing. What you guys are doing on a music level is insane🔥, and it shouldn’t be tainted by any pressure to follow or do what everyone else is doing on social media. We need a Lower Hollow in the scene, and if things continue feeling the way they are for you, the passion will die out, and we can’t have a scene without you okes♥️
@@Zwane031 Ah bro, this was a really cool read, and a great perspective in general. A valued response for sure. I think there's a genuine social pressure to create content a certain way, or have things look and feel a certain way. When one consider video equipment in itself and that investment for arguments sake, I'd way sooner spend that money on upgrading actual gear we use weekly to perform / write / record with. I guess to some extent, the pressures are external and even internally, for any band really. I mean, this kind of conversation I feel is healthy as it's something a lot of dudes just struggle with, and you run the risk of letting it defeat you - which in itself is weird considering no band really proclaims themselves to be great video marketing gurus, though some are clearly better than others. It's a blessing when you have the skillset in your camp, goes without saying. So, in terms of Lower Hollow, we obviously book and self-promote a lot of our own shows, where we invite bands etc to join and so on. It's a grind to get bands to promote a show (genuinely not calling anyone out), but essentially we ourselves aren't promoters drawing an external bigger cut and split equally amongst all, so there's that underlying hope / expectation that everyone's hands will go into that success for the show. Ah man, it's not easy. It's cool to take on your opinion and take stock in general, I feel it's a real consideration point. I mean, there's cool video stuff we do wanna do, but you're mostly chasing the tale creating these "come watch my band" videos that you don't get genuine opportunity to do the shit you wanna actually do. I'm not disgruntled at the creating music part, touring or whatever goes into the music aspect of it, I'm all in there. I guess it's just this pressure to follow, in order to be seen, in order to exist. But you've also correctly so, put me in my place - and I appreciate that. You don't need to do anything you don't wanna do. I guess all in all, it'd be great to get back to the fundamentals of music itself and have that be the reason people support shows.
@@Zwane031 To be fair, I'm not saying everything out there currently is funny, or inauthentic so to speak - not even necessarily referring to Walk These Skies take of video content, was actually really speaking to our own take on it all, and was really calling myself or our band out for it - which is where that frustration lies. Maybe a point to have brought up internally, but also I felt conversation around it is also healthy as we're all in this. There's for sure an element of video content that doesn't seem to speak to the fabric of music itself, but rather this other angle, whatever that is. I obviously come across sounding like I can't take a joke, but it's just weird how this sorta format has crept up into it all like we're selling tickets for the latest Panic Mechanic movie... Most of it is this sort of awkward nervous blunder vibe, I dunno. The bigger reason I brought up this aspect of the scene currently I guess is because I think people desperately want REAL. We're surrounded by facades, and a lot of this stuff just doesn't feel like the people, almost as if to say the people who make music aren't cool enough as themselves, so there's this need to dress it all up as something else or unrelated. The music itself and the people making it should be enough. Maybe people aren't coming to shows because something about this doesn't feel quite right, I dunno? Sometimes as a species we don't know why we don't like something, we just don't. But we gotta ask questions, and this is why this video is so good, because it's calls us all to think about this stuff. It's clearly a collective many things, but I feel this sorta thing also has something to do with it.
Hit the nail on the fucking head! Totally agree with all that you’ve said. I will never ever stand in front of a camera and act all weird and shit to promote a show my band is playing. It’s just so weird to me. This is heavy fucking music. Bands must keep some mystery going with their art.
Musicians are performers, literally parading on stage... you are making art... Market yourself authentically, no one is forcing you to act like a comedian.
I think the scene isnt supportive of each other everyone is in their own bubble it seems Metal may also be a bit overdone espeically if nothing new is being added its just a rehash of better bands from overseas we need new genres and new bands to bring life into the scene Good bands who make good music will be enough to revive the scene
I have been out of South African music. You have something going on here. Make people aware of bands that are out here in SA and trying their best. The more support everyone has, the bigger the community can become! I miss the old days when Lamb of God came to Cape Town and a sick SA lined up with the Drift. Keep the content flowing. You are asking the right questions.
@@michaelgeorgemcdonald5927 I still remember TDWT covering Forgotten from FTG and in turn FTG covering Pertinacious Cycle from TDWT - perfect recipe for mosh.
Awesome vid dude 🖤 scene will never die as long as there are bands creating the music. And we don't make money anyway, it's all about the passion and means of expression. For lekker cape town black metal check out Nebula Disrupt (RIP) 🤘🤘🤘
I have no business watching this. But, I was intrigued abt what heavy music was. So I watched this yt recommendation. I loved it! I love how epic this scene sounds, the music at the start was kinda cool. I listened to some metal as a kid and stuff but nothing like this. I think ur cool and I think it exposed me to something I had no idea abt. Props to you and everyone apart of this scene! Proud of you lot because I know South Africa doesn't make it easy for scenes like this. Wish I had friends as open minded as you lot😂
Interesting topic bro. Thanks for making a video on this. So much talent in our country but very little support for the music, skateboarding and art scene.
My recent experiences with SA metal is actually positive! 😀 I was in the category of metal fans who do not know of the SA scene. Last year I went onto Reddit and asked if there are any metal performances in Cape Town. I was informed of the Metal4Africa Winterfest. I attended it and it was amazing! I was exposed to so many different bands and the crowd was friendly. And now I can't wait for the Metal4Africa Summerfest on 25 January. I just could not understand why they are hosting a summerfest at an indoor venue, in Brackenfell where it is hot and dry in January. Your discussion on the lack of venues that are willing to host metal helped me understand why. I can imagine that that would be a challenge. Are there suitable venues in SA that just blatantly refuse to allow metal because the tannie that owns the place believes its from satan or something?
The fact that your experience was positive especially it originating from reddit is mad😂 Who are some of your favourite bands? And yes you've nailed it on the head. There are a couple of places that could definitely host decent sized shows but the people who own them would never allow it. At the end of the day that is entirely their perogative, It's their venue and they can do whatever they want with it
Man, I only recently came upon Mind Assault. It's bands like that, which made me realise we are on a massive decline. Took me way too long to discover them. The early 2000's with clubs like Burn, The Doors, Zeppelins etc, were venues that got us all together, hearing new music, people telling you about amazing bands. I remember 2 specific bands I tried following all over back then, Knave and Chromium. I'm not going to name bands like 16Stitch, The Narrow etc.
I played in and around Durban in the early to mid 2000’s and Burn and The Winston were like homes to us. We played lots of “made up” venues. They were still quite good. Even before we all moved along because of the whole money thing and being able to afford touring etc, it really seemed like it was growing so it’s saddening to hear this. We even played a battle of the bands in Joburg which had regional ‘qualifiers’ etc so it really seemed to be on the up. We marketed as best we could but social media and the internet wasn’t what it is now. Hopefully things can turn around and pick up again.
The metal scene was quite prominent in my area (highveld) couple years back. Regular shows and alot of effort from venue owners. There was alot of hype around the metalcore scene and everyone was starting garage bands. However there came a time when Chromium broke up and the whole scene kinda died down around here... broke my heart. I'd love for it to pick up again though... great video!
The algorhythm brought me here.... Tempo's had a cool setup back in the day where they had different bands playing in different parts of the venue so people could go explore, I suppose Sognage could also kind of work in the same way, but renting out the entire venue and you don't know if the feet are gonna come. Also thanks for Scathanna Wept, I didnt even know we had a black metal band in SA :D I can tell you the JHB goth scene is by far the most elitist, ever since Red Room closed down. We're supposed to welcome more people to subcultures so they can thrive, instead everyone complains about a lack thereof
I never got to experience Tempo's sadly before i got involved in music. I remember driving past it a lot with my folks and my dad would always comment on it. Red Room was also one of his haunts i believe 😂I'm so glad that i could point you in the direction of a local black metal band. | I've heard stories about the JHB goth scene and i feel for you. The complaining while doing nothing to contribute is a big issue for sure. Thanks for tuning in, I'm stoked you enjoyed the video -Marcel
Good point regarding the sub genres being thrown on stage and the crowd not being too happy with that. Portraits Of Flesh witnessed that first hand. Even though we are JHB based, we get a much better response from the CPT crowd who seems to be more into Black and Doom than the JHB crowd.
Infrastructure is a huge reason I as a solo goer can't really attend despite having the funds. Sognage seems like a really good venue but it's in the middle of industry land in JHB which coming from PTA is a bish and dangerous. Other venues in PTA do have kinda bad sound and I'm always bringing my ear plugs along because sound is actually TOO loud 😂 I have a select set of bands I want to see because I know I like them based on Spotify tracks. I really think improving on all fronts will be needed. Maybe looking at hosting more festivals instead of one night things. I used to look forward to Ramfest/Halloween events by loftus but the lineups are looking worse for me and the prices not justifying it either. They had insane big metal rock artists before. Not sure what happened last year.
I remember a similar video a while back and what I said I think could apply here. Some studio only projects I think could help with building the presence of the scene. Having heavy music be constantly tied to having to be a live artist I think hampers people's drive to contribute if they have to also factor in a trip to Sognage or Rumors every couple of weeks and they just want to create and add to the scene. I mean, if bands like Infant Annihilator, Darko, Valiant Hearts and Slaughter to Prevail (for a while) can do it then so can we. I plan on doing it and i feel like I already feel a lot more enthusiastic wanting to make heavy music
Great topic for a video! South Africa has a lot of great talent! Unfortunately, it all comes down to location and demographics and financial viability. I was fortunate enough to be involved in the local Metal scene for 22 years (1995 to 2017) first with the band Architecture of Aggression and then later BloodBeast. In that time, I've seen a lot of venues and bands come and go and even radio support. In Pretoria the campus radio station Tuks FM used to interview and play a lots of local Metal artists. In my opinion the SA Metal scene was at its hight between 2003 and 2011 with lots of bands, clubs and festivals. From my experience it seemed that the whole scene would reset every 5 years as most local bands didn't make it past 5 years for various reasons but one of them being that being in a band became an expensive hobby, as there just are not enough people in South Africa that are avid Metal fans, except when international bands like Metallica or Rammstein toured, then there suddenly seemed to be tens of thousands of Metal fans, none of course that would support the local scene. No Metal bands opened for these big Metal bands either. Our biggest challenges are location and a small demographic that likes Metal. It also seems like the local scene suffers from amnesia when it comes to the bands of prior years. How many current local Metal fans can name any bands from the last 20 years or even listen to these bands even though some of these bands have made their catalogue available on platforms like RUclips or Bandcamp as an example. We have arich history of amazing Metal bands that are mostly forgotten. To come back to location, let’s use Australia or New Zealand as examples, they have a lot of international bands constantly touring there so if you are a local band that's build up a bit of reputation the possibility of you getting too open for an international act would be good. Here we don't have a regular flow of international bands, so most bands hit their growth ceiling within 5 years. Also because of a lack of support and venues a band can get overplayed very quickly in the scene compared to bands touring Europe or the States where they might play a venue in your town once a year so when the band tours your town again in a years’ time you are supper amped to go and view them again.
I 100% agree with you about the scene amnesia. There was no-one documenting or archiving the existence of these bands, Not even the bands themselves. Almost everything i hear about legendary local bands of the past is via word of mouth and I'm unable to find anything online which is heartbreaking.
@marcelsmuts2197 Here is Architecture of Aggression's RUclips channel with lots of live footage from back in the day youtube.com/@aoagodkill?si=dxb9mJMR0QR9NRvH
I think bands and musicians in South Africa have to learn a super important lesson. Support needs to go both ways. Yeah sure, go support live music, but you as the musician has the responsibility to support your audience with a great show. Don't get pissy when no one shows up to your next show when Laerskool Morreesburg's second grade class can gooi a better show than you can. Don't go on stage drunk or gerook out of your mind. Tune your instruments. Be nice at soundcheck. Actually use the soundcheck for what it's for. Make sure the setlist has a nice flow to it. KNOW YOUR SONGS INSIDE AND OUT. Yes, this approach isn't always lekker and makes it feel all job-like, but man if you want to play more than 2 shows a year, you need to put in the prep work and be a kak smooth polished product. A person's attention is by far the most valuable form of currency these days and local bands need to tap into that. We don't have a million venues and millions of people like Europe or America. Like Marcel said, we have Jozi, Pretoria, Cape Town, and KZN (a little bit) for the main cities. In those cities, there are only a handful of venues. You absolutely have to make the most of the opportunity given to you to play.
Sub Genres, Lack of Venues and Weekend Fests, Whatever happened to that??? if only we could get back the times between 2005 - 2015 anywho Marcel you brought up a lot of interesting points
The music scene sure has changed. Had some good shows at Burn, Winston and Red door back in the day. Being from the South Coast usually we had to travel for gigs. My father-in-law used to gig on the coast in the early days, he reckons there were at least 50 venues on the south coast alone, granted it wasn't metal, but still, I think we have 2 venues left than can accommodate bands.
Unfortunately South Africans in general have incredibly conservative music tastes. I love metal and just struggle to find local metal these days. Great video and you make some great points.
This is a good clip and i agree. Specially about genres not wanting to mix. In my experience the Core scene dont like having DEATH metal bands at their shows
I think Pestroy was one of the best SA bands. I still listen to their album The Speed of Dark. Unfortunately, I don't think they around any more. But, yeah heavy music is almost non existent in SA, it fucking sucks. Being in Pretoria, TUKS FM stopped playing only rock music in 2012/2013 - which I feel had a huge negative impact on the heavy scene. Also, just a side note: you are slightly out of focus (I'm a videographer, sorry lol). But good video anyway!
I know a lot of people who talk about the pestroy era very fondly. Tuks dropping almost all Alt music was sad. Think I'll actually have a look into it. P.S: One day I'll figure out how to focus a camera properly :(
Im 51 now, been listening metal since I was 14.growing up in 80s and early 90s SA, there were a few clubs doing metal good, that deteriorated after the 94 elections. Not bringing politics into it. British and American and German metal is what I grew up on. If there were more overseas real metal bands touring our country, maybe more SA metal bands will get more exposure as opening acts, which could lead to more bigger things. I used to play bass in a metal band back in the day. There were no exposure back then. (doing it for the fun nowadays). Metal will never die, never. Long live metal. 🤘🤘🤘
I remember some great metal bands from back then in SA (my exposure from 90s to 00s). I remember some great shows by Agro, Pothole, Sacrifist, Mind Assault, Architecture of Aggression and V.O.D. (Voice of Destruction - The SA band not the international band by the Blom brothers if I am not mistaken?) and even the amazing industrial shows put on by bands like Battery 9. I remember being blown away by Battery 9 on stage with angle grinders, welding equipment, metal pipes, etc. Was incredible to see.
I miss the Winston as well. The westville warehouse and Robsins Real bear have done a good job catering to those bands but at the end of the day they aren't venues that were built with live music in mind.
As far as live performances go... its not anything to write home about... but I dont think musicians should rely on record labels and venues to reach a larger audience... independent production and social media is really the only way to get yourself recognised.
*Im a drummer & vocalist locally, i do it privately as i always felt my preference in music would not translate well in SA hell even overseas it is quite hard to make truly Brutal tracks and get a bigger following then say 10 000 and thus i pursued different things, when my sound systems fully set up i will start sharing my vocals and drums after 3 months of practice if you want a good idea of what i mean here is a list of progressively more Brutal bands i enjoy. Suicide silence, Signs of the swarm(Cj era) vulvodynia(duncan era) cannibal corpse, dying fetus, Fleshgod apocalypse, Nile, Abominable Putridity, Extermination Dismemberment, Cephalotripsy, Devourment a few new comers with crazy vocals would be The Dark Prison massacre and the lighter side of course Lorna shore master wills vocals is insanity.*
Yeah, you're on point. And I don't think the scene is dying. It's just too small. People have been saying the scene is dying for well over a decade now since I've been going to shows. The venue thing is an issue too. I don't like having to drive half an hour to get to a show in Joburg. 😂 Every time I go to shows I see the same bands over and I see the same people. It's just not that fun. And there are usually only two or so bands that I want to see on a given night because the lineup is a skillet of genres. Like how Jozi DeathFest had three proper death metal bands and then other bands.
I've played one of the Deathfests and yeah we were absolutely not a death metal band 😅 I agree with you I personally don't think it's dying out but the constant pushing of that narrative with bitter intent is hampering it's growth.
After Burn died (and Winston) in Durban, I have not seen much of the metal scene since... Moved to CPT, haven't seen much either (I probably don't know where to look) Edit: the League analogy lolololol
I just missed the Burn era. I moved to Durban in 2016 and it was already gone. I know Capetown has some banger places to see shows! Check out a RUclipsr by the name of keisha, she's based in CPT and covers a big part of the scene there! www.youtube.com/@KeeshKush -Marcel
Area I live in, and in a 100km radius of it. There are little to no places that cater to rock music, nevermind metal. I'm sure a lot of South African metal heads that aren't in Capetown, Pretoria or Jozi has the same experience. Granted it's not easy to just open up a place that caters to fans of heavier music and hope it goes well :D On a side not Crow Black Sky is a pretty good black metal band from Cape Town
I think what is killing local music in general would be poor organizing skills by bands and event organizers themselves. Events do well when marketing and organization is done properly, bad events create a bad image and don't add to the compounding effect of growing a fanbase for many bands. If bands help organizers with marketing (done correctly) then more people watch the bands, listen to their streams, buy their merch etc. The source of the product bands come up with is first and foremost the music, which includes live performance and studio recordings. These tend to be good for quite a few bands, so there is a lot to work with in terms of hype and sticking power. IF bands and organizers sharpen up their skills with marketing and events planning things would go better, but we tend to have an epidemic of bands that believe the music will speak for itself, which it won't if no one is listening.
I think it comes down to the fact that organizers are multi-tasking multiple rolls. Bands are definitely struggling to hold down all fronts (solid recordings, Social media presence, Solid live performance, Etc.) but that's incredibly difficult and consuming for practically zero financial gain which makes putting in that extra effort seem null
@@sludgeunderground I sort of disagree in terms of the financial gain comment - there is quite some money to be made, which is why I stated the events organizers and poor planning affects these things so much. If bands and organizers work together to sell as many tickets as possible, then they make money - if more people are at the shows then they have a higher chance of selling a lot of merchandise. If bands have more money to work with, they can put more financial backing into growing the audience, getting quality media out and marketing upcoming shows. If shows are an attraction and interesting to go to, then more people will go to them. I have a band and organize events on the regular. I see that there can be significant financial gain if everything is done right from the get go, ie. merch looks good enough that people would buy it even if its wasn't band related, the event has great visuals, videos and gets some financial backing to get to enough people to buy tickets, deals with venues are fair and they don't take cuts from the event (which means more money to pay the bands). The social media presence is something I have been struggling with tremendously over the past few months. I've given my band an ultimatum in order to get them to participate more in the social media work, which gives me more time to work on the recordings and visual content of the band. The sad reality is that most bands are actually solo projects with only one member doing most of the work. Bands that do really well and grow really fast often have each member fulfill a separate but significant role. If more people realize that they can actually make money from these things, they would be more incentivized to do more for their bands and events. Although people generally do this for the love of the game, that mindset can be incredibly toxic to hinder monetary gain by running things as with the expectation that it won't do well but will be fun. It is entirely possible to make money whilst having a lot of fun doing it.
@@solongserenity I agree with you there, for real. I mean it's really not always easy to get buy in from bands when marketing shows. I've had to beg some bands on a legit level and lose my shit because you just see no mention of anything anywhere. It's not easy in that sense, and there's a balancing act of how much is enough or when is the marketing just too much altogether? There's for sure good money to be made, no question about it. Pre covid was brutal for bands because you'd split R40 6 ways and that doesn't even cover a single trip for a band member to get to the show. It was pretty difficult. Now, since Covid and largely because the entertainment industry (then unable to work and earn) was placed in the spotlight for a long time as low income group. Coming back to shows post Covid you had an immediate increase across the board in ticket price which was well and properly overdue a decade earlier, but now we had it. So yeh, totally agree that there is good money to be made, and with that money bands are able to make necessary gear upgrades, better recordings, tour more without going bankrupt... It's not about becoming millionaires (though let's face it, that'd be great too). It's super shit not having drum sticks or new strings when needed, or the fuel to tour. So I fully agree you can earn well if you work well and push hard, and you can still hold the integrity of the music together. Nowhere does it state that your favourite bands are living on the streets, so why should you?
@@sludgeunderground Totally agree that there's a massive issue with that multi-tasking aspect of being in a band. You simply cannot be everything all in one well contained unit. Great friends + great communicators + incredibly good songwriters + self produced heros + mix & master geniuses + marketing guru + street level flyer beast + show supporter at all the local shows + Steven Spielberg + Video editor + Post Production + Social media wordsmith + Graphic designer.... This is just a few of the roles expected to be carried out amongst the few dudes in a band, oh - and don't you dare suck live - because then all these other points you might have gotten right are all worth shit and mean absolutely nothing. It's just too much. It's also a massive point of contention within any band as its hard to keep all these aspects in motion. Oh, two of our members are fathers and husbands... so there's that too? Where in what world can all these aspects be carried out to their finest degree? We gotta figure this out, because it's an unnatural level of expectation and certainly an unhealthy level of stress within the space of being in a band.
Great topic and something I actually thought about the other day when I was revisiting my top albums for 2024. Its sad that I only enjoy music from three local acts: Constellatia Crow black sky Orphean Passage and of course, revisit bands that's not active anymore, such as Wildernessking, Feura, Sacrifst to name a few. Even shows has become a thing of the past for me. For example, I'll just pop in to check out Constellatia's set and then leave. Not sure if I just lost interest in the majority of the local scene as a whole or if there just aren't any other bands around that spark my interest. keep up the great vids, thank you dude
lol, as a member of the Durban scene from 2000... This scene has shrunk, but it's not dead... so I'd say no. I don't think metal in SA will ever die, just evolve as it has always done...
Bra we are South Africans what heavy music ever got born and left home soil and made an impact in the world KOBUS NOT MY DOG THese guyS CANT GET OVER SEAS EXPOSURE like they deserve SO HOW will anything go over seas since sliced Seether bread most South African bands are kids with jacksons and ibanese and gibsons thats said originality cant be bought by mom and dad If you think im jealous or something then you are right im so jealous i have to work hard for everything and have to genuinely appreciate it
Not enough of a fan base to eek out a minimal basic living wage doing music means the scene is a hobby scene. It's always been like this, theres about 4 venues and 5 000 fans in the whole country. My advice to musicians is just enjoy doing your hobby (it is a hobby, don't delude yourself), try not to emulate scenes in the US and Europe, you don't live there, rather be creative and original or seriously, whats the point of your creation? Make sure you have a plan for a proper income outside of making heavy music or you will struggle and make your family struggle too. The competitive beef between fans and bands, well, sorry but the scene is just too small to be acting this way, be supportive of each other.
If they're good at their craft, music is music! I'm a producer from KZN and have been in a few bands in my life. We just need more band that don't wanna sound like another band. Unfortunately most bands just just wanna rip-off another famous band.... Be original and the fans will come and watch your shows.
No more ramfest and oppikoppi and unfortunately diversified oppikoppi didn't help either...and booting mk 89 from dstv was one of the final nailes in the coffin... just my opinion
The loss of Oppi and Ramfest was a massive blow and also I remember so many people talking about Thornfest or something back in the day. Myself and Nas(The other founder of sludge) played in a band called Thorns Of Ivory heres a link ruclips.net/video/eIwcdhD5eRw/видео.html
Sundowners was sick! It's such a pity that Spencer emigrated out to the UK i think. I only ever played there once and went to a couple of shows. -Marcel
Thats cool man. Roxy's also used to be quite a popular spot@@sludgeunderground. I know you are referring to metal and hardcore primarily, but I feel everyone went into that whack psychobilly phase, where shows became fashion cosplay get togethers. Most fans just moved on with their lives which marked a low point. Never sensed any revival of punk/ska/hardcore etc... Anyways. Good content. Relevant and interesting
you're meant to tell me i must act happy at a show with someone who think brutal technical death metal is technical brutal death metal... shame on you marcel!! :p
What a dumb topic..SA is a shit hole in general it is basically a cultural back water on all levels. The Winston was always a shithole just to sell alcohol.
@angieferreira6359 if you think a pub with a shitty PA is considered a venue then you can be thankful for living like a king in a pile of mud. I am not talking about traditional culture face palm. If I am looking for recording of nooit but nooit I'll drop ya DM. Rather go troll the streets in Vryheid.
I was tempted to get defensive and list the makes and models of the PA system because it was far from subpar-better than most can afford, in fact. But hey, this comment likely comes from someone who doesn’t know much about the subject anyway. If you did, you'd recognise, as every reputable band and musician in the country does, the impact The Winston had on the KZN music scene for over 20 years. Respect it for what it was and what it achieved. But sure, go ahead and stay in your lane. ✌️
You know, they say the same thing about the legendary New York venue CBGB... BUT, not all things are meant to exist and be experienced in pristine condition. Yes, Winston came with it's own vibe, which was either to your taste or not. There were truly legendary status shows that went down at The Winston... Crossingpoint final show (I was there), The Rising End final show (I'm regularly reminded of), Comeback Kid (I was there)... These are just to name a few. I booked that Comeback Kid tour, and I'll tell you this, I literally begged that band for weeks leading up to that tour, to play that 1 single show, which would be a surprise secret show on the tour. It was truly epic, unreal to think, surreal to experience first hand. That was a choice venue for an underground scene, regardless of whatever you felt the venue looked like or sounded like. I don't wanna put this down to the venue having it's own "charm", but in the underground scene that is hardcore, punk and metal, that venue was a literal haven to many who had nowhere else to go. Anyways, I doubt anyone is going to convince you otherwise, I just felt like sharing some rich history for those who don't know.
I think the emphasis on metal in SA is actually killing the scene in the sense that everyone is so worried about heavy music dying in SA that everone makes similar sounding music(not that our bands are bad at all) so theres no diversity genre wise in turn hurting the scene way more than helping it
Fair point
Bruh
oof, this is a very sensitive topic. loving it though. I, personally, feel having more open events, instead of just genre or subgenre specific ones are a lot better coz it opens everyone up to bands/musicians/artists they wouldn't even bother checking out. The crowds mingle and intertwine and it just makes the scene a better place over all coz you don't gatekeep your shows, but that's just how i feel.
for example, being in Boiling Point (hardcore band) when we organise shows, we aren't gonna have a bill of JUST hardcore bands, we'll have indie, punk, prog, death metal, you name it coz we want the scene to grow as a whole. Being in "the scene" shouldn't mean you just support YOUR specific genre, be it metal, punk, etc, you should support the scene as a whole coz at the end of the day, your metal band will have some of your closest friends at those shows and they support you even though they might not even be into metal, they might be into hip hop or indie so why not have shows that's open for everyone?
i'm just saying hehe
Yeh, mixed lineups are genuinely a good way to introduce people to new sub genres and bands of course. I know this is how we try and keep things fresh. It is tough though because folks seem to want that idealistic only hardcore or only metal type show, which is understandable.
As someone who's set up shows for decades now, it's impossible to have your perfect lineup as there's always bands you'd maybe like to play alongside who just can't make the date etc.
Absolutely, i think i left out why they're good by accident. However the problem is that they're almost exclusively whats happening
@@ashleydebeer3893 Do you think it boils down to the fact that there just aren't enough bands in those Sub-genres? I don't envy your position of being an organizer at all. What the audience wants can 100% be cursed.
@marcelsmuts2197 probably not enough bands. I mean, consider you're playing 2 shows per weekend... how many bands in any said region? You really do need to consider diverse lineups. Personally I'm not opposed to that at all, it's been so rad jamming shows with so many different styles and just soaking in variety.
If you ask those close to me, I suffer from listening to heavy music exclusively all night for a full show. It's just too much auditory heaviness for me, so its nice to break it up. Even changing the music to alternative rock during band changeover is helpful for me, for the audience.
As much as shows are about the bands, the music... there's also a social scene aspect of attending and for that you need background music between bands, which also serves the point of elevating the actual performing band when they do start playing.
In many instances, cross country... I think guys who attend punk shows, attend hardcore and metal shows. So there's definitely cross pollination there, which is good. These scenes are connected through friendship and through music.
Yeah everyone wants to stay in their own bubble it seems and just a lack of bands overall
After touring Germany last year with Mean Girls, the worst part of coming back to the SA scene is the lacklustre venues and sound (for the most part, there are some exceptions). But looking at the punk scene over there I still think we have something really special going on in SA, whether it be metal, punk or any alternative style of music. I think despite our lack of infrastructure people here still really love what they do and put their all into it. The energy at gigs here is something different and people mostly do music here because they love it, not because they know they can make a living or play big gigs. Great video man, thanks!
You're part of what makes it special ;)
I only watch 5+ hour long video essays - I vote for a deep dive, yes
Oh lawd
100% gotta be done!
You wuss, I don't get out of bed for less than 12 hrs
I personally feel that since Barney Simon's evening show on 5FM where he showcased the local rock and metal scene went the way of the Dodo...the scene took a nosedive as visibility declined.
Who remembers this from BS's opening jingle: "Watch out...he's coming through the dooooooor.... BRILLIANT! HE DIDNT EVEN OPEN IT!!!!! "
I caught the tail end of Barney Simons run promoting local alternative music and even then i think i was a little to young to understand and wasn't fully involved in alternative music. A lot of the time i feel like i missed the geniune hey-day of the SA Alt scene🥲 It'd be great to see a successor to Barney's show and I'd love to have him on the show one day.
-Marcel
Heavy music was always tiny, even in Joburg. I remember it well. A band might be huge at a festival one night, then struggle to draw more than a handful of people the next night. @@sludgeunderground
Do you remember uncle Paul's midnight Horror stories on Simon's show? My parents used to party at his house. Was wild.
Barney once played my “You say I play it” list back in the 90’s 🤘😂
@@bryanmcdougall6973 Oh yes...I remember it. I had a single tape deck in my room, and I used to stay awake until it aired just so I could record it and make one large horror cassette.
I grew up as a teenager in the late 80s and 90s and live music was such a huge part of my growing up. I originally came from East London and then moved to Cape Town and both had a massive live music scene - heavy, rock, grunge, alternative, numetal, rap, indie, industrial, punk, folk, reggae, etc. There were always a couple of nights during the week and always the weekend that bands would play. It was such a great time - and people would happily see an indie band, then a punk band, followed by something heavier later and then finally end up at a rave until the morning and finally go home listening to some rap going home. People just seemed to love live music and could appreciate all genres as long as it was good and your genre wasn't left out.
And SA had (and still has) a massive pool of talent. We had great bands with loads of promise (and still do). And it was a fantastic time to learn to appreciate all music, socialise and generally get out of the house.
And then suddenly, it all disappeared. And I don't know why? All those bands disappeared or went underground and all the venues closed up (I wouldn't even know where you would go to see a small live band playing). And I would understand if it was a global trend but it wasn't. Live music is still huge everywhere else in the world.
Maybe it was the death of buying an album and streaming and bands then relying on making a living from touring and selling merch. Bands in the US and Europe could do that as there are so many places to play but in SA, bands are limited to places they can play, too many genres in such a small country and local record companies who have no interest or potential in making money with local bands.
You might say, what about Australia and how do they do it? But they are a first world country with a lot of exposure to international cultures and trends and interaction with well known artists. And they have the money still to support local music as they can see the potential for successful artists.
But this is only my theory so don't take this as gospel. It's an interesting topic to chat about and glad you brought it up.
I do really hope things change. I still believe that South Africans are crying out for more live music in all genres. Green Day and Offspring are playing in Cape Town this month (yes, I know they are not metal) and over 70,000 people are going. But that still proves that we love live music! And like I said, we have the talent, we simply need the exposure and promotion.
Proud of you dude!! This is sick! Keep up the creation 🔥🤘🤘
So insightful to what your scene is like and the nuances within it
Thank you so much my dude! Really appreciate this
I was the resident sound engineer in two popular "underground music" venues in Durbanville (Northern Suburbs of Cape Town) from around 2008 - 2016. I mixed hundreds of bands ranging from rock, hard rock, and various genres of metal. The main problem is venues, not the number of bands out there - there are not many venues for all these bands to play in so the only other stage for them was at festivals, and then they had to be good enough to be invited to play them. Even then, there weren't that many festivals going that catered for heavy music.
Love the new format!
I think that the metal scene in SA is in a pretty good place (as good as can be after 2020) speaking from a POV from someone who has been in the scene since 2014, it changed and evolved over the years. Yes venues closing down is a big issue, and that makes it difficult. But I think it's gonna enter into a new era pretty soon. Mixed genres events is a great way of coming together as a scene, even if the subgenres don't mix too well. What I love about SA metal is that the bands are really dedicated to grow not just their brand but the scene as a whole, we went touring in KZN in December and it was such a vibe, from a Jozi mindset there was clear differences like venues being small and sound not always being top tier. Yet we played in places like Toti where apparently live metal hasn't happened before. I think if we as artists take those risks and go out of our way to bring the music across the nation. As well as market it correctly things will get better. However there is a big gap in the ad/marketing sphere, we used to have things like MK and ondergrond. But with these outlets being gone it's up to the bands and organisers to market towards the public.
I believe that with colaboration and pure passion we can drive the scene to boom!
Mixed genre events aren't inherently bad, it only becomes an issue when it's the only option. I 100% agree that we're on our way to a new era and I'm super hopeful that it'll be a positve one. The gap in marketing/advertising is a way bigger hole than most realise but the unfortunate issue is how big of a risk it'd be in terms of profitability.
Collobaration and passion are absolutely the key at this point
Imo the metal scene was the best from 2008- 2017. But especially the best time was 2013-17,there was resurge and explosion in the scene with a massive following and new bands writing and releasing awesome music in that time,and credit to all those people in the scene that worked behind the scenes to grow the scene and put on amazing events in that time,they not only worked hard to get metal bands play in venuas all over but also host big events in places like town halls . I still hear people talk about those couple years as the best time in the scene.
I only started being actively involved in the scene from about 2013/14 and the yeah the vibe of it definitely made fall inlove with the scene. I do still feel like i caught the tail end of the scene. Suppose thats part of the reason I'm so passionate about trying to help it along and shine light on it.
In all honesty I might start doing more short formed videos like this if the content allows it. This video I can tell is gonna be a hit. Please PLEASE make a video on the history of south African metal!!!!
Look forward to seeing the new content!
-Marcel
Speaking of which, that little atmospheric black metal scene in Cape Town that produced the incredible bands Wildernessking, Crow Black Sky and Constellatia is pretty much unknown. All three of those bands are way more well known overseas than they are in SA. That has always bothered me.
ps. Constellatia (which has members of Crow Black Sky and Wildernessking) is signed to the well known record label Season of Mist.
Crow Black Sky is still going strong, they released their 3rd album Sidereal Light: Vol 2 last year.
The lead singer of CBS is also the lead singer of the excellent doom metal "supergroup" Orphean Passage (which consists of members of Mind Assault, A Walk With the Wicked, CBS, Gramlich and Devilspeak)
All said bands are incredibly good, genuinely amazing musicianship and songwriting overall. I think perhaps in their cases, very likely all 3 bands you mentioned... there's a deeper sense that the bands are more focused on playing very specific theatrical type showcase shows that they themselves book, market and manage overall. It does come across very much as though these bands are deliberately outside of the more "scene" type weekly shows. Which makes sense when you consider the production these bands are putting into their shows, all a massive aspect that takes serious time and serious planning. Amazing bands though, and perhaps I read their situation wrong, though it does seem to be that way when you look at their shows and how they market everything, which in itself is really cool, fully respect that.
Super cool to find other South African RUclipsrs. You have brought up some excellent points. Elitism and gatekeeping sucks and ruins everything. I think the diversity of Metal is what makes it beautiful. I'm a filthy poser Core-kid. So too heavy for pop audiences, not heavy enough for the black metal guys. But if we don't have more diverse shows, we don't have shows.
As someone who works in the more "commercial" side of the music industry, I find a ton of the session guys and people arranging the live shows love heavy music. Even in the afrikaans sokkie music vibes, solos are coming back, halftime grooves and big tweaks to the songs when It comes to live shows. This doesn't change the fact that Heavy music is a niche. Lables are all about live shows, because that's where the money is. So pitching a band that will struggle to fill a venue is a problem.
That's why heavier music have a beautiful home here on RUclips. My journey has led me to working as a session musician in the 'pop' industry and making metal here on RUclips. Having an audience outside of SA is one way to mitigate the problem at least a little.
I released music that's not as heavy as some bands mentioned here and I'm constantly on the verge of just giving up. It's just me and playing live is a very distant thought.
It would help so much to have heavier music on more mainstream platforms. Even if it's just an hour on Goodhope FM. That would help so much and get eyes and ears on more local bands
Loved the video and the new format dude. "Disease that must not be named" did a number on the SA music scene as a whole - I think unfortunately the heavy music scene has always been the runt of the litter, and subsequently, suffered the most - sadly.
That said, there are definitely reasons to be optimistic. The Wacken Finals last year was a testament to this - the talent of the bands, the production quality of the event and the overall gees was really something to be proud of.
Thank you so much for tuning in! We'll definitely be doing more videos like this in the future.
I think the Covid scenario played a major role in bringing a lot of bands to an end for sure - changing the landscape. This had its own knock on effect, in that brand new lesser experienced bands were casting themselves into a field with very little to no guidance; really figuring a lot of it out alone. So a lot of the inexperience seen these days is a case of bands just not having had any torch passed to them. I think recognizing these issues is helpful as well, because it takes the issue and at least gives it a "name", to which anyone who's facing this can address it and educate themselves (the band) to get what was perhaps lost along the way.
Recognizing the issue also removes the sting and places everyone's headspace more towards figuring it out and getting better at whatever you're looking to achieve with music.
Making heavy music in South Africa is doing life on hardcore mode. There’s just too much to cover in a single comment, but cliques arise and egos often get in the way.
I’ll also say there’s a huge amount of Dunning-Kruger, and you can read that as “delusion” with a lot of people and “musicians” who have zero self awareness when it comes to the quality and relevance of the material they create.
Thing is, people don’t like unpleasant conversations, they don’t like criticism, and they like to hold the hegemony when it comes to who the “in” group is and who is left on the periphery.
I will also say I’m guilty of a lot of the behaviour you’ve described here, but I’ve since changed my attitude and it’s been very beneficial.
In truth, none of it is invalid, and nobody has the authority to say what is and isn’t allowed.
I guess I’ll finish off by saying that making good, heavy music is hard work, mostly thankless and even harder to do with people who are capable and not psychopaths or narcissists (you can’t do it).
Ultimately, the best musicians and bands do it because they love it and don’t care about the many obvious downsides - they really are the true heroes of the SA music scene, so kudos to all of them (and there are many).
Great video guys!
It's like new game+ without the experience or gear of the previous run😥
There's A reason for that and you're not going to like the answer
Great vid. What’s your vibe on the scene almost being a generational thing? MTV /MK89 etc… pushing the scene and giving it exposure. Now those are kinda gone.
I know for a fact, places like Cool Runnings, Tempos, Olive Lounge etc… in instances, eventfully got snuffed out due to dodge location and residential areas expanding to those areas which ultimately led to “noise complaints” etc… which is crazy… that’s what I saw.
I don’t even know what today’s kids are doing these days? Are they even doing anything?
Anyways, loved being there when it was booming. The Chromium days etc… miss it. So Nostalgic and memories i don’t think any of us will ever forget.
When I was there, the scene was also amazing. Accepting to all walks of life that gathered together for the joint love of something. Hard to find these days.
Great video
One of my theories is that a lot of the guys who were doing those things didn't have anyone to pass the torch to. Everyone kinda just expected them to be around forever so very few people were making new platforms, When the big guys stepped down and moved on with their lives for whatever reasons they left a vaccum that no-one whad the means to fill and it all kind just collapsed.
The kids today are doing some unbelievably cool things ,its easy not to think so with how a lot of people talk about the scene but theres crazy talent out there at the moment!
-Marcel
@@sludgeunderground I think your theory there is bang-on. Definitely not many guys to hand it over to. Facing the Gallows definitely tried to carry the torch and did very well. Just not many others there to support and carry. I dig your theory.
Agreed. Definitely loads of talent out there today. I think more-so from an influencer perspective (when looking at music) and less-so out and about in performing bands. Just wish there was another revival of venues supporting the metal scene again. Sognage in JHB keeping a heartbeat going for sure. I’m sure there are others too.
Very hard to monetise the creative industry (no matter the form), so I guess the peeps doing it online have cottoned-on to the cash that can be earned on social platforms vs jamming at a venue.
Have a rad weekend.
Well said! I also think that the lack of venues hinder bands from performing. I noticed a lot of CT bands called things quits during the mentioned "global event." thankfully some bands have picked things up again, but we'll never have our old favourite venues back. Day fests seem to be the thing, when it comes to mashing a bunch of genres together, and then the location doesn't always really matter, but for weekly events? In this economy?
I think so many bands across the country called it quits during that time. There are so many venues that were like second homes to some of us. You've been on the front lines for years at this point and I'd love to have you on the show sometime to chat about your time in the scene.
Yooo more content like this please and thanks bc this is just too rad 👹
stem
I’d definitely love to see a video on the history of the heavy metal scene in SA. You’ve got a new subscriber. 💪
Got into the scene in Durban 23 years ago. Looking back, it appeared promising, alternative music was on the radio, and TV! There were promoters and record labels, and a few good venues, even some commercial venues would host metal/rock/punk shows. Like I say, promising. But even after a few years the reverbing rumours were that it was dying, and it did... or did it? it never really has, and I don't believe it will. Sure, those venues, promoters and labels have all but faded but the bands and fans are still out there. We only have fewer places to go. It's unfortunate, at least in Durbs, that there is less infrastructure, as you put it, but music is art, and you can't stop the want to create nor to consume that art.
SO glad this video found me. Local is lekker, my bru. Liked and subscribed and all that stuff. Looking forward to your most contentious video!
Hella good video bro! Keep it up!
Thank you so much for tuning in!
Dope video dude, loving how you went into this with genuine investigative-journalist, true-neutral alignment vibes.
Looking forward to seeing more content, my guy!
Thank you so much for tuning in and the kind words
Also not as many festivals attracting international Metal. Krankd up Fest was one…. And has been dead since 2018/19. Used to attract top metal bands back in the day.
@@philipdeklerk4636 Definitely. Let’s hope Ramfest’s 2023 return sparks a resurgence
Great video! Well done dude!
Headbangers' ball on DSTV influenced a lot of people to get into metal and rock.
It has to be said, the way in which bands HAVE TO whore themselves out nowadays to get people to a show has become pretty gross. We're musicians who have to parade ourselves around on Instagram videos like we're monkeys in a circus, just to get a few extra likes on a post ("because the algorithm"), which may or may not reflect directly on actual show attendance. Fake smiles + get your tickets + buy our merch type videos... Fuck it.
It's the marketing side that absolutely sucks, trying to stay relevant... I mean, relevant, wtf is that even? We're musicians, not actors and actresses. I think there's a deep frustration with so many of us because as bands (maybe just us, who knows) we're all becoming inauthentic - purely to market a show. I mean, nothing wrong with inviting people to attend a show in a video... it's the clowning around, fully scripted videos that bands feel the need to do that are starting to feel distasteful and actually just not a measure of the people in the bands. Not even calling anyone out specifically, because it's all of us at one or more points. It's distressing and outta character.
There's an aspect of show marketing that's just really inauthentic and soul destroying. Do I want folks to come see my band or listen to our music, 100% yes - there just has to be a better way to make that happen. Our lyrics, imagery and everything about our music is not funny at all, we're not comedians and neither are most of the bands in the general alternative scene - Yet, we're all selling ourselves as though we're some discount comedians. Metal, hardcore, punk, death metal are all mostly almost exclusively pissed off and angry scenes... yet, nobody seems pissed about a damn thing? We're all just smiling while we're dying inside filming 20 second video clips to "market" our bands. People used to attend shows because the music they heard ripped hard, and they wanted to throw down in a pit or exist within the culture of that scene. THE COMMON THREAD WAS THE MUSIC, now it's IG followers, FB likes, what you filmed/edited your video with, what filter you used, what transitions you used, how many people shared your story. All of which has near zero to do with why musicians write, create, perform music in the first place.
And when you say something about it, folks say - well yeh, that's the world we live and if you want people at the shows, you gotta do it. Then there's the competitive nature of marketing video content... if it's filmed on a phone you're instantly noted as shite? Like, fuck man, are we musicians marketing music or are we videographers, animators and video editors? Just come to a show and throat punch your best friend in the pit, like the good old days. Simpler times.
When everything fades, the music should still be worth something to those who created it, those who in that experience.
I'm not saying video documenting, music videos and such have no place in music. Clearly, it's a very cool aspect of it all that we all love. However, viewing something is starting to overshadow listening to something, and by listening I really mean listening. Real people are trying to express themselves through music, there's a voice, there's a sound that should touch your inner being when you hear music you enjoy. I could watch my favourite bands play their music on broken gear if they did it with absolute passion and meant every word. People lost their minds watching Comeback Kid play at The Winston on a tiny stage with very run down PA equipment... you can't deny how special that was for anyone who attended.
We're all going about this a very wrong way. I don't know the solutions, but we're on the wrong path, and I know this because it feels inauthentic and disposable in a culture that should be the gold standard for authenticity.
There’s a South African podcast I was watching that focuses on mainstream artists, and what they said regarding promoting is that artists aren’t obligated to promote an event, that’s what promoters are for. They went as far as saying mainstream artists even charge a separate fee if you want them to punt your event on their pages because they’re giving you access to their followers, and you’re asking them to do a promoter’s job.
Now obviously, the alt scene isn’t generating the kinda money mainstream is generating, and the argument for the alt scene is ‘community’, bands share the event because we’re all pushing for the same thing, which is fair enough, but I’d argue that you as an individual would have every right to tell someone who’s booking you, that you’ll play the show but won’t be able to make content around it, because as you say, it’s an entirely different job on its own. Sure, you may be labelled as being difficult to work with, but it sounds like you’re disgruntled at the way things are, so it’s a worthy tradeoff for peace of mind, especially when you have valid reasoning as to why you’d rather not promote, it’s simply not your job, your job is to entertain the crowd by playing your music at the event, as a musician that’s what your fee should cover, plus expenses. Bands promoting events should be nothing more than an act of camaraderie, not an obligation. In fact a simple share regarding the event should suffice, not an entire production video😂.
The part about inauthenticity is tricky because there’s no hard rule as to how you should promote your ‘content’. Just because a walk these skies, or an indie dog puts up jovial videos, doesn’t mean you have to do that too, not sure who set this expectation because it’s inaccurate. In fact, you need not even post videos just because everyone else is posting them. If you feel compelled to post a video, it’s in your best interest not to do it just because x band is doing it and doing it a certain way, people can tell if something isn’t genuine.
If there’s a lineup consisting of 5 bands, it’s okay to be the one band that uploads the poster with a caption telling people to check you out that evening or even share it to your story, especially if 4 of the other bands are also going to be promoting the event and uploading videos acting the fool.
If it’s draining your soul and doesn’t feel right, don’t force yourself to do it, do whatever is in line with your way of doing things. I used to run the Thorns IG when we were still active, I literally used to either create or share the poster accompanied by one of our photos, and wrote a caption, and the shows were still well attended. Not because of thorns of course😂, but because of everyone’s contribution, and just because the other band’s contribution was posting a ‘funny’ reel, didn’t mean I had to do the same.
If there’s a fear that anything other than ‘funny’ videos won’t slap or won’t be received well, and if you feel like must post/upload, you can always just upload and promote the post, or hire a social media manager if it’s an aspect you feel is super important for the band but just aren’t enjoying it.
There are people out there that enjoy the hell out of your band’s music, and I’m certain that they’d be okay with you posting something akin to your gratitude post, which was genuine and sincere, vs one where the band is trying to be funny, but deep down that just isn’t who you guys are. It might work for the bands that do it because they’re just crazy in general😄, there’s running inside jokes amongst some of the bands because that’s who they are, chill guys that aren’t that serious, but if that isn’t your kinda sense of humour, don’t feel compelled to follow what they’re doing.
What you guys are doing on a music level is insane🔥, and it shouldn’t be tainted by any pressure to follow or do what everyone else is doing on social media. We need a Lower Hollow in the scene, and if things continue feeling the way they are for you, the passion will die out, and we can’t have a scene without you okes♥️
@@Zwane031 Ah bro, this was a really cool read, and a great perspective in general. A valued response for sure. I think there's a genuine social pressure to create content a certain way, or have things look and feel a certain way. When one consider video equipment in itself and that investment for arguments sake, I'd way sooner spend that money on upgrading actual gear we use weekly to perform / write / record with.
I guess to some extent, the pressures are external and even internally, for any band really. I mean, this kind of conversation I feel is healthy as it's something a lot of dudes just struggle with, and you run the risk of letting it defeat you - which in itself is weird considering no band really proclaims themselves to be great video marketing gurus, though some are clearly better than others. It's a blessing when you have the skillset in your camp, goes without saying.
So, in terms of Lower Hollow, we obviously book and self-promote a lot of our own shows, where we invite bands etc to join and so on. It's a grind to get bands to promote a show (genuinely not calling anyone out), but essentially we ourselves aren't promoters drawing an external bigger cut and split equally amongst all, so there's that underlying hope / expectation that everyone's hands will go into that success for the show. Ah man, it's not easy.
It's cool to take on your opinion and take stock in general, I feel it's a real consideration point. I mean, there's cool video stuff we do wanna do, but you're mostly chasing the tale creating these "come watch my band" videos that you don't get genuine opportunity to do the shit you wanna actually do.
I'm not disgruntled at the creating music part, touring or whatever goes into the music aspect of it, I'm all in there. I guess it's just this pressure to follow, in order to be seen, in order to exist. But you've also correctly so, put me in my place - and I appreciate that. You don't need to do anything you don't wanna do. I guess all in all, it'd be great to get back to the fundamentals of music itself and have that be the reason people support shows.
@@Zwane031 To be fair, I'm not saying everything out there currently is funny, or inauthentic so to speak - not even necessarily referring to Walk These Skies take of video content, was actually really speaking to our own take on it all, and was really calling myself or our band out for it - which is where that frustration lies. Maybe a point to have brought up internally, but also I felt conversation around it is also healthy as we're all in this.
There's for sure an element of video content that doesn't seem to speak to the fabric of music itself, but rather this other angle, whatever that is. I obviously come across sounding like I can't take a joke, but it's just weird how this sorta format has crept up into it all like we're selling tickets for the latest Panic Mechanic movie... Most of it is this sort of awkward nervous blunder vibe, I dunno.
The bigger reason I brought up this aspect of the scene currently I guess is because I think people desperately want REAL. We're surrounded by facades, and a lot of this stuff just doesn't feel like the people, almost as if to say the people who make music aren't cool enough as themselves, so there's this need to dress it all up as something else or unrelated. The music itself and the people making it should be enough. Maybe people aren't coming to shows because something about this doesn't feel quite right, I dunno? Sometimes as a species we don't know why we don't like something, we just don't. But we gotta ask questions, and this is why this video is so good, because it's calls us all to think about this stuff.
It's clearly a collective many things, but I feel this sorta thing also has something to do with it.
Hit the nail on the fucking head! Totally agree with all that you’ve said. I will never ever stand in front of a camera and act all weird and shit to promote a show my band is playing. It’s just so weird to me. This is heavy fucking music. Bands must keep some mystery going with their art.
Musicians are performers, literally parading on stage... you are making art... Market yourself authentically, no one is forcing you to act like a comedian.
I think the scene isnt supportive of each other everyone is in their own bubble it seems
Metal may also be a bit overdone espeically if nothing new is being added its just a rehash of better bands from overseas we need new genres and new bands to bring life into the scene
Good bands who make good music will be enough to revive the scene
I have been out of South African music.
You have something going on here. Make people aware of bands that are out here in SA and trying their best. The more support everyone has, the bigger the community can become!
I miss the old days when Lamb of God came to Cape Town and a sick SA lined up with the Drift.
Keep the content flowing. You are asking the right questions.
Still missing the good old The Dead Will Tell and the OG Chromium!
Pestroy 🔥
You can't mention the Dead Will Tell, without Facing the Gallows!
@@michaelgeorgemcdonald5927 I still remember TDWT covering Forgotten from FTG and in turn FTG covering Pertinacious Cycle from TDWT - perfect recipe for mosh.
If you know The Dead Will Tell, it's time to get out of your chair and stretch, want ons is KAK oud my bra :D
Fuck yeah Chromium ❤
This goes so hard Marcel🔥🔥
Subscribed! Waiting on that deep dive 🔥💪🏿
Thank you so much for tuning in, It's going to take a lot of research but I'm excited to give it a crack!
Awesome vid dude 🖤 scene will never die as long as there are bands creating the music. And we don't make money anyway, it's all about the passion and means of expression.
For lekker cape town black metal check out Nebula Disrupt (RIP) 🤘🤘🤘
Thanks so much for checking it out!
Finally another South African black metal band to check out😂
-Marcel
I have no business watching this. But, I was intrigued abt what heavy music was. So I watched this yt recommendation. I loved it! I love how epic this scene sounds, the music at the start was kinda cool. I listened to some metal as a kid and stuff but nothing like this.
I think ur cool and I think it exposed me to something I had no idea abt. Props to you and everyone apart of this scene! Proud of you lot because I know South Africa doesn't make it easy for scenes like this. Wish I had friends as open minded as you lot😂
I'm so stoked you enjoyed this!
The music in the start is by Facing The Gallows I'd definitely recommend checking them out
Interesting topic bro. Thanks for making a video on this. So much talent in our country but very little support for the music, skateboarding and art scene.
The skate scene is like the red headed step child.
@ hahaha…well said
My recent experiences with SA metal is actually positive! 😀 I was in the category of metal fans who do not know of the SA scene. Last year I went onto Reddit and asked if there are any metal performances in Cape Town. I was informed of the Metal4Africa Winterfest. I attended it and it was amazing! I was exposed to so many different bands and the crowd was friendly. And now I can't wait for the Metal4Africa Summerfest on 25 January.
I just could not understand why they are hosting a summerfest at an indoor venue, in Brackenfell where it is hot and dry in January. Your discussion on the lack of venues that are willing to host metal helped me understand why. I can imagine that that would be a challenge. Are there suitable venues in SA that just blatantly refuse to allow metal because the tannie that owns the place believes its from satan or something?
The fact that your experience was positive especially it originating from reddit is mad😂 Who are some of your favourite bands?
And yes you've nailed it on the head. There are a couple of places that could definitely host decent sized shows but the people who own them would never allow it. At the end of the day that is entirely their perogative, It's their venue and they can do whatever they want with it
@marcelsmuts2197 SA metal bands that I like: The Fallen Prophets, Dream Demon, Scathana Wept, Your Cynical Sanity.
@@frikkiediehaai9477 Good list, I've played shows with all of these except Dream Demon
Man, I only recently came upon Mind Assault. It's bands like that, which made me realise we are on a massive decline. Took me way too long to discover them. The early 2000's with clubs like Burn, The Doors, Zeppelins etc, were venues that got us all together, hearing new music, people telling you about amazing bands. I remember 2 specific bands I tried following all over back then, Knave and Chromium. I'm not going to name bands like 16Stitch, The Narrow etc.
Great video and many valid points!
Thank you so much for checking it out!
I played in and around Durban in the early to mid 2000’s and Burn and The Winston were like homes to us. We played lots of “made up” venues. They were still quite good. Even before we all moved along because of the whole money thing and being able to afford touring etc, it really seemed like it was growing so it’s saddening to hear this. We even played a battle of the bands in Joburg which had regional ‘qualifiers’ etc so it really seemed to be on the up. We marketed as best we could but social media and the internet wasn’t what it is now. Hopefully things can turn around and pick up again.
Brilliant video! Well done!
The metal scene was quite prominent in my area (highveld) couple years back. Regular shows and alot of effort from venue owners. There was alot of hype around the metalcore scene and everyone was starting garage bands. However there came a time when Chromium broke up and the whole scene kinda died down around here... broke my heart. I'd love for it to pick up again though... great video!
The algorhythm brought me here.... Tempo's had a cool setup back in the day where they had different bands playing in different parts of the venue so people could go explore, I suppose Sognage could also kind of work in the same way, but renting out the entire venue and you don't know if the feet are gonna come. Also thanks for Scathanna Wept, I didnt even know we had a black metal band in SA :D I can tell you the JHB goth scene is by far the most elitist, ever since Red Room closed down. We're supposed to welcome more people to subcultures so they can thrive, instead everyone complains about a lack thereof
I never got to experience Tempo's sadly before i got involved in music. I remember driving past it a lot with my folks and my dad would always comment on it. Red Room was also one of his haunts i believe 😂I'm so glad that i could point you in the direction of a local black metal band. |
I've heard stories about the JHB goth scene and i feel for you. The complaining while doing nothing to contribute is a big issue for sure.
Thanks for tuning in, I'm stoked you enjoyed the video
-Marcel
Good point regarding the sub genres being thrown on stage and the crowd not being too happy with that. Portraits Of Flesh witnessed that first hand. Even though we are JHB based, we get a much better response from the CPT crowd who seems to be more into Black and Doom than the JHB crowd.
The different citites definitely have their niches for sure
Rest in Peace Winston Pub :(
Forever in our hearts
Nicely done dude!
There's a show happening on Saturday at Eddies, GQ, just saying.
Infrastructure is a huge reason I as a solo goer can't really attend despite having the funds. Sognage seems like a really good venue but it's in the middle of industry land in JHB which coming from PTA is a bish and dangerous. Other venues in PTA do have kinda bad sound and I'm always bringing my ear plugs along because sound is actually TOO loud 😂 I have a select set of bands I want to see because I know I like them based on Spotify tracks. I really think improving on all fronts will be needed. Maybe looking at hosting more festivals instead of one night things. I used to look forward to Ramfest/Halloween events by loftus but the lineups are looking worse for me and the prices not justifying it either. They had insane big metal rock artists before. Not sure what happened last year.
I remember a similar video a while back and what I said I think could apply here.
Some studio only projects I think could help with building the presence of the scene. Having heavy music be constantly tied to having to be a live artist I think hampers people's drive to contribute if they have to also factor in a trip to Sognage or Rumors every couple of weeks and they just want to create and add to the scene. I mean, if bands like Infant Annihilator, Darko, Valiant Hearts and Slaughter to Prevail (for a while) can do it then so can we. I plan on doing it and i feel like I already feel a lot more enthusiastic wanting to make heavy music
Great topic for a video! South Africa has a lot of great talent! Unfortunately, it all comes down to location and demographics and financial viability. I was fortunate enough to be involved in the local Metal scene for 22 years (1995 to 2017) first with the band Architecture of Aggression and then later BloodBeast. In that time, I've seen a lot of venues and bands come and go and even radio support. In Pretoria the campus radio station Tuks FM used to interview and play a lots of local Metal artists.
In my opinion the SA Metal scene was at its hight between 2003 and 2011 with lots of bands, clubs and festivals. From my experience it seemed that the whole scene would reset every 5 years as most local bands didn't make it past 5 years for various reasons but one of them being that being in a band became an expensive hobby, as there just are not enough people in South Africa that are avid Metal fans, except when international bands like Metallica or Rammstein toured, then there suddenly seemed to be tens of thousands of Metal fans, none of course that would support the local scene. No Metal bands opened for these big Metal bands either.
Our biggest challenges are location and a small demographic that likes Metal. It also seems like the local scene suffers from amnesia when it comes to the bands of prior years. How many current local Metal fans can name any bands from the last 20 years or even listen to these bands even though some of these bands have made their catalogue available on platforms like RUclips or Bandcamp as an example. We have arich history of amazing Metal bands that are mostly forgotten. To come back to location, let’s use Australia or New Zealand as examples, they have a lot of international bands constantly touring there so if you are a local band that's build up a bit of reputation the possibility of you getting too open for an international act would be good. Here we don't have a regular flow of international bands, so most bands hit their growth ceiling within 5 years. Also because of a lack of support and venues a band can get overplayed very quickly in the scene compared to bands touring Europe or the States where they might play a venue in your town once a year so when the band tours your town again in a years’ time you are supper amped to go and view them again.
I 100% agree with you about the scene amnesia. There was no-one documenting or archiving the existence of these bands, Not even the bands themselves. Almost everything i hear about legendary local bands of the past is via word of mouth and I'm unable to find anything online which is heartbreaking.
@marcelsmuts2197 Here is Architecture of Aggression's RUclips channel with lots of live footage from back in the day youtube.com/@aoagodkill?si=dxb9mJMR0QR9NRvH
Loving the channel Marcel
Thank you so much for tuning in homie!
I think bands and musicians in South Africa have to learn a super important lesson.
Support needs to go both ways. Yeah sure, go support live music, but you as the musician has the responsibility to support your audience with a great show. Don't get pissy when no one shows up to your next show when Laerskool Morreesburg's second grade class can gooi a better show than you can.
Don't go on stage drunk or gerook out of your mind. Tune your instruments. Be nice at soundcheck. Actually use the soundcheck for what it's for. Make sure the setlist has a nice flow to it. KNOW YOUR SONGS INSIDE AND OUT.
Yes, this approach isn't always lekker and makes it feel all job-like, but man if you want to play more than 2 shows a year, you need to put in the prep work and be a kak smooth polished product.
A person's attention is by far the most valuable form of currency these days and local bands need to tap into that.
We don't have a million venues and millions of people like Europe or America. Like Marcel said, we have Jozi, Pretoria, Cape Town, and KZN (a little bit) for the main cities. In those cities, there are only a handful of venues. You absolutely have to make the most of the opportunity given to you to play.
"Support goes both ways" goes hard
A deep dive would be dope
Work on it's starting:)
Loved this video!!!
Thank you so much for always tuning in!
Sick video dude!
Thank you so much homie
Sub Genres, Lack of Venues and Weekend Fests, Whatever happened to that??? if only we could get back the times between 2005 - 2015 anywho Marcel you brought up a lot of interesting points
The music scene sure has changed. Had some good shows at Burn, Winston and Red door back in the day. Being from the South Coast usually we had to travel for gigs. My father-in-law used to gig on the coast in the early days, he reckons there were at least 50 venues on the south coast alone, granted it wasn't metal, but still, I think we have 2 venues left than can accommodate bands.
Your father in law probably knew the guys from Hate Speech then?
I feel young now. I was guitarist for Hate Speech. @sludgeunderground
@@TyrelParkerMusic 🤣 We played a couple of shows together. I miss Russell
Unfortunately South Africans in general have incredibly conservative music tastes. I love metal and just struggle to find local metal these days. Great video and you make some great points.
This is a good clip and i agree. Specially about genres not wanting to mix. In my experience the Core scene dont like having DEATH metal bands at their shows
I think Pestroy was one of the best SA bands. I still listen to their album The Speed of Dark. Unfortunately, I don't think they around any more.
But, yeah heavy music is almost non existent in SA, it fucking sucks. Being in Pretoria, TUKS FM stopped playing only rock music in 2012/2013 - which I feel had a huge negative impact on the heavy scene.
Also, just a side note: you are slightly out of focus (I'm a videographer, sorry lol). But good video anyway!
I know a lot of people who talk about the pestroy era very fondly. Tuks dropping almost all Alt music was sad. Think I'll actually have a look into it.
P.S: One day I'll figure out how to focus a camera properly :(
Im 51 now, been listening metal since I was 14.growing up in 80s and early 90s SA, there were a few clubs doing metal good, that deteriorated after the 94 elections. Not bringing politics into it. British and American and German metal is what I grew up on. If there were more overseas real metal bands touring our country, maybe more SA metal bands will get more exposure as opening acts, which could lead to more bigger things. I used to play bass in a metal band back in the day. There were no exposure back then. (doing it for the fun nowadays). Metal will never die, never. Long live metal. 🤘🤘🤘
I remember some great metal bands from back then in SA (my exposure from 90s to 00s). I remember some great shows by Agro, Pothole, Sacrifist, Mind Assault, Architecture of Aggression and V.O.D. (Voice of Destruction - The SA band not the international band by the Blom brothers if I am not mistaken?) and even the amazing industrial shows put on by bands like Battery 9. I remember being blown away by Battery 9 on stage with angle grinders, welding equipment, metal pipes, etc. Was incredible to see.
Here in Durban, The only place where we could watch good bands... has closed! RIP Winston!
I miss the Winston as well. The westville warehouse and Robsins Real bear have done a good job catering to those bands but at the end of the day they aren't venues that were built with live music in mind.
you must add timestamps/chapters to the video for each topic dude, but otherwise it was interesting!
As far as live performances go... its not anything to write home about... but I dont think musicians should rely on record labels and venues to reach a larger audience... independent production and social media is really the only way to get yourself recognised.
*Im a drummer & vocalist locally, i do it privately as i always felt my preference in music would not translate well in SA hell even overseas it is quite hard to make truly Brutal tracks and get a bigger following then say 10 000 and thus i pursued different things, when my sound systems fully set up i will start sharing my vocals and drums after 3 months of practice if you want a good idea of what i mean here is a list of progressively more Brutal bands i enjoy. Suicide silence, Signs of the swarm(Cj era) vulvodynia(duncan era) cannibal corpse, dying fetus, Fleshgod apocalypse, Nile, Abominable Putridity, Extermination Dismemberment, Cephalotripsy, Devourment a few new comers with crazy vocals would be The Dark Prison massacre and the lighter side of course Lorna shore master wills vocals is insanity.*
Yeah, you're on point. And I don't think the scene is dying. It's just too small. People have been saying the scene is dying for well over a decade now since I've been going to shows.
The venue thing is an issue too. I don't like having to drive half an hour to get to a show in Joburg. 😂
Every time I go to shows I see the same bands over and I see the same people. It's just not that fun. And there are usually only two or so bands that I want to see on a given night because the lineup is a skillet of genres. Like how Jozi DeathFest had three proper death metal bands and then other bands.
I've played one of the Deathfests and yeah we were absolutely not a death metal band 😅 I agree with you I personally don't think it's dying out but the constant pushing of that narrative with bitter intent is hampering it's growth.
After Burn died (and Winston) in Durban, I have not seen much of the metal scene since... Moved to CPT, haven't seen much either (I probably don't know where to look)
Edit: the League analogy lolololol
I just missed the Burn era. I moved to Durban in 2016 and it was already gone. I know Capetown has some banger places to see shows!
Check out a RUclipsr by the name of keisha, she's based in CPT and covers a big part of the scene there!
www.youtube.com/@KeeshKush
-Marcel
The league analogy was neccessary cause i was recently a victim :'(
Area I live in, and in a 100km radius of it. There are little to no places that cater to rock music, nevermind metal. I'm sure a lot of South African metal heads that aren't in Capetown, Pretoria or Jozi has the same experience. Granted it's not easy to just open up a place that caters to fans of heavier music and hope it goes well :D
On a side not Crow Black Sky is a pretty good black metal band from Cape Town
Absolutely. I know places like Bloem actively refuse to host any sort of heavier band.
I think what is killing local music in general would be poor organizing skills by bands and event organizers themselves. Events do well when marketing and organization is done properly, bad events create a bad image and don't add to the compounding effect of growing a fanbase for many bands. If bands help organizers with marketing (done correctly) then more people watch the bands, listen to their streams, buy their merch etc. The source of the product bands come up with is first and foremost the music, which includes live performance and studio recordings. These tend to be good for quite a few bands, so there is a lot to work with in terms of hype and sticking power.
IF bands and organizers sharpen up their skills with marketing and events planning things would go better, but we tend to have an epidemic of bands that believe the music will speak for itself, which it won't if no one is listening.
I think it comes down to the fact that organizers are multi-tasking multiple rolls. Bands are definitely struggling to hold down all fronts (solid recordings, Social media presence, Solid live performance, Etc.) but that's incredibly difficult and consuming for practically zero financial gain which makes putting in that extra effort seem null
@@sludgeunderground
I sort of disagree in terms of the financial gain comment - there is quite some money to be made, which is why I stated the events organizers and poor planning affects these things so much. If bands and organizers work together to sell as many tickets as possible, then they make money - if more people are at the shows then they have a higher chance of selling a lot of merchandise. If bands have more money to work with, they can put more financial backing into growing the audience, getting quality media out and marketing upcoming shows. If shows are an attraction and interesting to go to, then more people will go to them.
I have a band and organize events on the regular. I see that there can be significant financial gain if everything is done right from the get go, ie. merch looks good enough that people would buy it even if its wasn't band related, the event has great visuals, videos and gets some financial backing to get to enough people to buy tickets, deals with venues are fair and they don't take cuts from the event (which means more money to pay the bands).
The social media presence is something I have been struggling with tremendously over the past few months. I've given my band an ultimatum in order to get them to participate more in the social media work, which gives me more time to work on the recordings and visual content of the band.
The sad reality is that most bands are actually solo projects with only one member doing most of the work. Bands that do really well and grow really fast often have each member fulfill a separate but significant role. If more people realize that they can actually make money from these things, they would be more incentivized to do more for their bands and events. Although people generally do this for the love of the game, that mindset can be incredibly toxic to hinder monetary gain by running things as with the expectation that it won't do well but will be fun. It is entirely possible to make money whilst having a lot of fun doing it.
@@solongserenity I agree with you there, for real. I mean it's really not always easy to get buy in from bands when marketing shows. I've had to beg some bands on a legit level and lose my shit because you just see no mention of anything anywhere. It's not easy in that sense, and there's a balancing act of how much is enough or when is the marketing just too much altogether?
There's for sure good money to be made, no question about it. Pre covid was brutal for bands because you'd split R40 6 ways and that doesn't even cover a single trip for a band member to get to the show. It was pretty difficult. Now, since Covid and largely because the entertainment industry (then unable to work and earn) was placed in the spotlight for a long time as low income group. Coming back to shows post Covid you had an immediate increase across the board in ticket price which was well and properly overdue a decade earlier, but now we had it. So yeh, totally agree that there is good money to be made, and with that money bands are able to make necessary gear upgrades, better recordings, tour more without going bankrupt...
It's not about becoming millionaires (though let's face it, that'd be great too). It's super shit not having drum sticks or new strings when needed, or the fuel to tour. So I fully agree you can earn well if you work well and push hard, and you can still hold the integrity of the music together. Nowhere does it state that your favourite bands are living on the streets, so why should you?
@@sludgeunderground Totally agree that there's a massive issue with that multi-tasking aspect of being in a band. You simply cannot be everything all in one well contained unit. Great friends + great communicators + incredibly good songwriters + self produced heros + mix & master geniuses + marketing guru + street level flyer beast + show supporter at all the local shows + Steven Spielberg + Video editor + Post Production + Social media wordsmith + Graphic designer.... This is just a few of the roles expected to be carried out amongst the few dudes in a band, oh - and don't you dare suck live - because then all these other points you might have gotten right are all worth shit and mean absolutely nothing.
It's just too much. It's also a massive point of contention within any band as its hard to keep all these aspects in motion. Oh, two of our members are fathers and husbands... so there's that too? Where in what world can all these aspects be carried out to their finest degree? We gotta figure this out, because it's an unnatural level of expectation and certainly an unhealthy level of stress within the space of being in a band.
Great topic and something I actually thought about the other day when I was revisiting my top albums for 2024.
Its sad that I only enjoy music from three local acts:
Constellatia
Crow black sky
Orphean Passage
and of course, revisit bands that's not active anymore, such as Wildernessking, Feura, Sacrifst to name a few.
Even shows has become a thing of the past for me. For example, I'll just pop in to check out Constellatia's set and then leave. Not sure if I just lost interest in the majority of the local scene as a whole or if there just aren't any other bands around that spark my interest.
keep up the great vids, thank you dude
I've never heard heavy dubstep from South Africa
lol, as a member of the Durban scene from 2000... This scene has shrunk, but it's not dead... so I'd say no. I don't think metal in SA will ever die, just evolve as it has always done...
also SlamWrldwide were very heavily interested in SA slam bands back in the day. I played in the overmind... we were signed to them for a bit.
Bra we are South Africans what heavy music ever got born and left home soil and made an impact in the world
KOBUS NOT MY DOG THese guyS CANT GET OVER SEAS EXPOSURE like they deserve SO HOW will anything go over seas since sliced Seether bread most South African bands are kids with jacksons and ibanese and gibsons thats said originality cant be bought by mom and dad
If you think im jealous or something then you are right im so jealous i have to work hard for everything and have to genuinely appreciate it
Not enough of a fan base to eek out a minimal basic living wage doing music means the scene is a hobby scene. It's always been like this, theres about 4 venues and 5 000 fans in the whole country. My advice to musicians is just enjoy doing your hobby (it is a hobby, don't delude yourself), try not to emulate scenes in the US and Europe, you don't live there, rather be creative and original or seriously, whats the point of your creation? Make sure you have a plan for a proper income outside of making heavy music or you will struggle and make your family struggle too. The competitive beef between fans and bands, well, sorry but the scene is just too small to be acting this way, be supportive of each other.
Show us your deck profile
I am 100% a Yu-Gi-Oh poser 🥲
If they're good at their craft, music is music! I'm a producer from KZN and have been in a few bands in my life. We just need more band that don't wanna sound like another band. Unfortunately most bands just just wanna rip-off another famous band.... Be original and the fans will come and watch your shows.
There a good few bands in KZN doing some really cool stuff at the moment.
RIP to the winston. KZN has lost a lot of its metal venues. Makes me sad. Not the "league reference". xD
Honestly it's sad to have seen them go. The league reference seemed appropriate 😂
-Marcel
No more ramfest and oppikoppi and unfortunately diversified oppikoppi didn't help either...and booting mk 89 from dstv was one of the final nailes in the coffin... just my opinion
Thanks for your channel...please leave links to your previous metal band projects
The loss of Oppi and Ramfest was a massive blow and also I remember so many people talking about Thornfest or something back in the day.
Myself and Nas(The other founder of sludge) played in a band called Thorns Of Ivory heres a link
ruclips.net/video/eIwcdhD5eRw/видео.html
Alberton Sundowners was a pretty good venue.
I personally feel that SA bands are talented, but they sound like they try too hard. It feels forced.
Sundowners was sick! It's such a pity that Spencer emigrated out to the UK i think. I only ever played there once and went to a couple of shows.
-Marcel
Thats cool man. Roxy's also used to be quite a popular spot@@sludgeunderground. I know you are referring to metal and hardcore primarily, but I feel everyone went into that whack psychobilly phase, where shows became fashion cosplay get togethers. Most fans just moved on with their lives which marked a low point. Never sensed any revival of punk/ska/hardcore etc...
Anyways. Good content. Relevant and interesting
you're meant to tell me i must act happy at a show with someone who think brutal technical death metal is technical brutal death metal... shame on you marcel!! :p
You are overthinking this, it boils down to one word......demographics
Next time i'll make a one word video just for you
@@sludgeunderground Thanks babe ;)
I mean we could do a 90min set and call it a pop up black metal show 😂
I approve
Not if you are into Neurofunk hehehe.....
Please drop some links so i can educate myself on what neurofunk is?
Def not. Still listening to slaughter to prevail and lorna shore
Neither of these are South African bands?
Did you actually watch the video or just respond to the title?😂
NO Afrikaans Metalcore and Boeremetaal is getting kak heavy rn.
Worsie van wyk
Death metal is DEAD... Its irrelevant...thank goodness...it was never "good" music. RIP😅
What a dumb topic..SA is a shit hole in general it is basically a cultural back water on all levels. The Winston was always a shithole just to sell alcohol.
Dude calling one of the most culturally diverse countries a cultural back water
@angieferreira6359 if you think a pub with a shitty PA is considered a venue then you can be thankful for living like a king in a pile of mud. I am not talking about traditional culture face palm. If I am looking for recording of nooit but nooit I'll drop ya DM. Rather go troll the streets in Vryheid.
I was tempted to get defensive and list the makes and models of the PA system because it was far from subpar-better than most can afford, in fact. But hey, this comment likely comes from someone who doesn’t know much about the subject anyway. If you did, you'd recognise, as every reputable band and musician in the country does, the impact The Winston had on the KZN music scene for over 20 years. Respect it for what it was and what it achieved. But sure, go ahead and stay in your lane. ✌️
You know, they say the same thing about the legendary New York venue CBGB... BUT, not all things are meant to exist and be experienced in pristine condition. Yes, Winston came with it's own vibe, which was either to your taste or not. There were truly legendary status shows that went down at The Winston... Crossingpoint final show (I was there), The Rising End final show (I'm regularly reminded of), Comeback Kid (I was there)... These are just to name a few. I booked that Comeback Kid tour, and I'll tell you this, I literally begged that band for weeks leading up to that tour, to play that 1 single show, which would be a surprise secret show on the tour. It was truly epic, unreal to think, surreal to experience first hand.
That was a choice venue for an underground scene, regardless of whatever you felt the venue looked like or sounded like. I don't wanna put this down to the venue having it's own "charm", but in the underground scene that is hardcore, punk and metal, that venue was a literal haven to many who had nowhere else to go.
Anyways, I doubt anyone is going to convince you otherwise, I just felt like sharing some rich history for those who don't know.
@@LowerHollow knocked it out the park ❤️