Boxer here, on the topic of sparring: We do sparring drills where you focus on one element but in a live setting (slip to the side you last punched from), sometimes we also drill pre-determined combos but getting into range and getting out of it is live (get in against a resisting partner, throw 1-1-2-3, get out without getting hit), these don't hurt. Technical sparring is also usually pretty light, but it can turn into a game of tag and let people get away with bad habits, that's why occasional hard sparring is good for you, because it tests your movement, timing and energy in a realistic environment. I heard of products like shocknife that is a plastic knife that acts like a taser, and wondered why you guys don't occasionally train with them.
Good observations on sparring. I’ve often joked that if I could put cattle prods on the end of the foils, I could produce brilliant fencers in record time. -AAC
The first few times I sparred as a boxer I spent most of my time thinking to myself, "This guy is hitting me in the face. Are people seeing this. He is hitting me in the face. What does he think he's doing hitting me in the face." Getting hit is a shock to the system at first. Getting used to being hit and learning that it hurts but that it "just" hurts lets you move on to learning how to fight.
The second you said "hit before getting hit" was insane I smacked that subscribe button. I shall follow your channel with great interest sir! You took the words right out of my mouth. I fence classical and historical as well as doing several more serious martial arts. Sports ethics and practices are fooling people into thinking they can fight when all they are learning is how is look pretty while getting killed. Respect.
Excellent discussion! When I was boxing as a much younger man. One of the sparing drills my trainer used to have us do was: One guy could use their full offensive repertoire while the other had to defend themselves without punching back. This was a great drill because it changed completely one's mindset for defense. Instead of slipping punches in order to set up an attack...and getting stuck in a routine. We had to continue to slip and or block a barrage of punches...for an entire round. It really allowed us to see all of the possible openings in an opponent's offense...that simply trying to counter off their jab wouldn't allow. It gave us the confidence in our defense to be patient and wait for the best opportunities. It also allowed us to see how the opponent was tiring from throwing punches...and how their timing changed. It was also great in that it taught us how to deal with the inevitable situation in which we punched ourselves out...and had to defend ourselves. When all we could physically manage to do was keep our hands up. I'm not really sure what my point is...other than to say...learning how to NOT get hit is unbelievably important in gaining the confidence to explore all of our potential weapons of offense. The great Roy Jones Jr. was a master at this. He would frustrate his opponent into sloppiness by making them miss...punch after punch...round after round...without really retaliating. Before finally cutting them to pieces with perfectly timed counter punches! Even someone as naturally talented as RJJ couldn't have become so proficient at these techniques without training this way. I don't know if there are any parallels in classical fencing training...but I think this kind of perspective would be great for fencing as a true martial art!
I agree. The very name "fencing" comes from the same root as "defense" (sometimes also spelled "defence"), the point being that fencing is, in fact, the art of defense, and the modern emphasis on making a point by being the one to strike first, with no real thought for self-protection is not at all in keeping with the origin or spirit of the sport. That is why many who practice HEMA will not count a strike as valid if you end up being hit in the process or shortly enough after that it is obvious that the other person was in the process of striking you as well, and either one of you, or both of you, ignored that danger in favor of trying to land your own blow. That is called doubling and is considered to not be a point and not be desired.
@@swordmastery Yes he was! He had been a New York City heavyweight golden gloves champion in the late 80's...luckily after Tyson's time! When I trained under him he was a middle aged man who's professional career was cut in it's infancy by a serious car accident. But though he hadn't competed for some years, it was still nearly impossible to catch him with anything clean.
How we skirmish in the 1595 Club gives opportunity to pain. We use IronGate Armory Synthetic Cutlass. We wear fencing jackets and masks. But the jackets aren’t so thick that if I get stabbed or chopped, it doesn’t hurt. It can leave a bruise. The pop against our masks is also quite loud and jarring. I find this to be focusing, motivating. Now, I wish to find a way to maintain form, reflexes and fighting intelligence between controlled predicable forms, and full on skirmishing. Find some bridged training across the two neural challenges.
My instructor has taken these points to heart and I am ever greatful for it. We usually train with padded sticks and little to no padding on ourselves, and every so often a blunt sword or wooden stick gets thrown in and it changes everyone's level of energy. You have to respect the weapon just like your opponents fists.
I agree 150% When I first started karate fighting in the ring in the 70s, we fought bareknuckle. Then everyone started breaking out pads gloves; shin guards and headgear . Fighters became more bold behind their armor. Then Point Karate 🥋 made the scene. Karate descended into Freeze-Tag. Karate Bullshit detectors fell off into the cult of Bullshido 😢
I fought heavy in the SCA in the 1990s. We fought with rattan sticks. The guy that taught me to fight wouldn't let me wear armor for the 1st few months too encourage good defense. Rattan might not break bones but full contact blows hurts like hell. There where days when I could barely walk out of fighter practice from the bruises. Guess what, I learned how to defend. I just started HEMA and agree with you about fencing.
As a french boxer i understand 👍. We have 2 types of sparring in our style. "Assaut" vs "combat". Assaut is more point sparring aka dull swords and combat is hard sparring with "knockouts possible" aka sharp swords.
Those same terms are used in fencing. An assault refers to a friendly bout and combat refers to a scored bout. No surprise as modern foil and epee come from French heritage.
A boxer called Cassius Clay, was a master of defence, another called Muhammad Ali got hit a lot, was older. Of course you can hit with full power in fencing, due to the protection, but it has NO consequences, unlike boxing. Of course today arguments "ad hominen" (against the man not the idea, Guy Windsor here) are so prevalent that they all do it, they are still a fallacy of logic. 💘 Love the comments. Cheers.
My HEMA instructor has always said that rule #1 is "dont get hit" rule #2 is "try to hit the other guy without breaking rule #1" I dont consider any hit clean if I get hit back as a result. Just two dead idiots.
I agree that the stakes are higher in boxing than they are in fencing and that, for instance, modern Olympic boxing is closer to a real fight than modern Olympic fencing is to a real swordfight. At the same time, I'm not seeing in this video what reasoning there is for fencers to train like boxers. There are definitely fencers who do stupid things that don't work, but inherently any sport is going to maximize for those strategies that result in success within a given ruleset. As such, fencers being goofy on the strip aren't going to make it out of their pools and no one is going to be encouraged to replicate what they're doing.
We used to fence sabre in nude torso but in very "special# times, just wearing glove and mask. I didn´t like it very much but we learned to respect fencing basics.
I’ve taken sabre lessons stripped to the waist. In fact, I have a really good story about that. Get me drunk enough and I might tell you sometime. One thing about bare-chested sabre: you sure as hell learn where your parries are in hurry! -AAC
Very wise, swords 🗡 are dangerous objects and should always be treated with precaution. I would add that the respect should be extended to practice swords in order to create good habits. Is infuriating 😣 when they treat the weapons as if they were tennis 🎾 rackets or something similar. By the way, how come boxers are in such magnificent shape? Training, training and more training. We should imitate that. Cheers
Arnisadores and Escrimadores old timers also say the same thing. They despise the modern tournaments with padding and head gear. Timing and distance management is lost. The classical styles in the provinces still retain their use of measure and I guess this is because they still use the Att for self defense in near lawless parts of the country.
I like you... You said the obvious thing that would been ludicrous for any weapon arts 100s of years ago. "Hit before getting hit" practicing to get hit and potentially die.
"The fear of pain can be a helpful training tool, one which fencers lack" - well when they practiced with real swords there was a risk, plus they also practiced wrestling
Yes 👍 yeees! You can train to hit in boxing, and hit for real later 😀 you today, can't do that in fencing. Up to the beginning of the XX century, swords had real life applications in warfare, and duels of course, reputedly the first kill done by the British in 1914 was done with a sword! Now please join the dots 🤔 YOU PRETEND IN FENCING NOTHING MORE. That modern fencing with the mutual suicide is stupid, albeit a lot of fun, I'll grant. Swords when SHARP behave differently that blunts, so is useful to compare, (they bind to reach other). Also edge alignment is vital, and useless in modern saber. There is a lot of truth in what you say, when applied in moderation. Cheers
Personally, I’ve never found stupidity very entertaining, which is why I don’t follow politics. I would submit that there is a difference between “pretending” and “simulating,” the difference being in degree sufficient to make a difference in kind. -AAC
Have you ever used sharps? They change how you 👀 see your fencing. I have used sharps only solo, I truly don't trust my ability with them to put anyone at risk. There is even a risk of hurting yourself, a live 🗡 weapon is always dangerous. And Fencing is always play (and hopefully a lot of fun 😀 also) today. Cheers
I have used a sharp sword in iaido. Also for “test cutting.” I do not and would not cross blades using sharps, nor would I permit such nonsense to occur in my presence. -AAC
No, no, noooo! You are pretending, you CAN NOT TRAIN LIKE IN BOXING, because you would die, or be severely injured. Obvious, you can treat the sword like it's real, BUT IT'S NOT and CAN'T BE REAL. Unless you decided to do "mensur" and even that is strictly regulated! Do a bit of soul searching, and be more modest. Or go and have a real duel, and if you survive, tell us about it. By the way, Guy Windsor does train with sharps, very, very carefully. Do you? Cheers
Training "very very carefully" with sharps is just larping, you are not training you are playing around to get a thrill. Duelling is not a sport you don't "train duelling", you train the skills useful for duelling wich is exactly the origin of Foil Fencing (we already figured it out hundreds years ago people) and you simply can't do so effectively without nerfing. Its like pretending people training to shoot fake nuclear missiles are invalid ,and people training to shoot tazers are more valid because they can even test it on themselves to experience the effects of their weapon. They are two different levels of blood sports the ones where your quality of life decrease and the one where your life end, its not that complicated to understand that the more risks you take in your training for latter the less skills you are going to develop. Fear of getting hurt is not conducive to learning how to hurt people which is the entire point of a duel, if you are at the point where you want it as "real as possible" to the point where fear of serious injury is involved then why be "very very careful" with it?
We have a technical term for people who cross blades with sharps: “idiots.” In my opinion, if you’re fencing with sharps, you don’t need a fencing master; you need a shrink! -AAC
@@swordmastery that is lazy answer. You can say you are training for combat. Then say if use it for combat you need a shrink. You either training for combat or larping
Oh man, I met guy windsor at an event in december, for a whole weekend. He is an old person who does never ever spar. Doesn t look like an athlete at all. He collects swords and sells books, which is very decent but he ain t no cossack at all 😂😂😂 you got it very wrong
Boxer here, on the topic of sparring: We do sparring drills where you focus on one element but in a live setting (slip to the side you last punched from), sometimes we also drill pre-determined combos but getting into range and getting out of it is live (get in against a resisting partner, throw 1-1-2-3, get out without getting hit), these don't hurt. Technical sparring is also usually pretty light, but it can turn into a game of tag and let people get away with bad habits, that's why occasional hard sparring is good for you, because it tests your movement, timing and energy in a realistic environment. I heard of products like shocknife that is a plastic knife that acts like a taser, and wondered why you guys don't occasionally train with them.
Good observations on sparring.
I’ve often joked that if I could put cattle prods on the end of the foils, I could produce brilliant fencers in record time.
-AAC
because shock knives are like 500 bucks lol
"Boxer's retain their inner bullshit detector" wow! Well said. Teach on Teach. U have my subscription and my ear.
The first few times I sparred as a boxer I spent most of my time thinking to myself, "This guy is hitting me in the face. Are people seeing this. He is hitting me in the face. What does he think he's doing hitting me in the face." Getting hit is a shock to the system at first. Getting used to being hit and learning that it hurts but that it "just" hurts lets you move on to learning how to fight.
The second you said "hit before getting hit" was insane I smacked that subscribe button. I shall follow your channel with great interest sir! You took the words right out of my mouth. I fence classical and historical as well as doing several more serious martial arts. Sports ethics and practices are fooling people into thinking they can fight when all they are learning is how is look pretty while getting killed. Respect.
Thank you so much for your comment, and welcome aboard.
I hope you will find your sojourn with us to be worthwhile.
Respect back.
-AAC
Excellent discussion! When I was boxing as a much younger man. One of the sparing drills my trainer used to have us do was: One guy could use their full offensive repertoire while the other had to defend themselves without punching back. This was a great drill because it changed completely one's mindset for defense. Instead of slipping punches in order to set up an attack...and getting stuck in a routine. We had to continue to slip and or block a barrage of punches...for an entire round. It really allowed us to see all of the possible openings in an opponent's offense...that simply trying to counter off their jab wouldn't allow. It gave us the confidence in our defense to be patient and wait for the best opportunities. It also allowed us to see how the opponent was tiring from throwing punches...and how their timing changed. It was also great in that it taught us how to deal with the inevitable situation in which we punched ourselves out...and had to defend ourselves. When all we could physically manage to do was keep our hands up.
I'm not really sure what my point is...other than to say...learning how to NOT get hit is unbelievably important in gaining the confidence to explore all of our potential weapons of offense. The great Roy Jones Jr. was a master at this. He would frustrate his opponent into sloppiness by making them miss...punch after punch...round after round...without really retaliating. Before finally cutting them to pieces with perfectly timed counter punches! Even someone as naturally talented as RJJ couldn't have become so proficient at these techniques without training this way. I don't know if there are any parallels in classical fencing training...but I think this kind of perspective would be great for fencing as a true martial art!
I agree. The very name "fencing" comes from the same root as "defense" (sometimes also spelled "defence"), the point being that fencing is, in fact, the art of defense, and the modern emphasis on making a point by being the one to strike first, with no real thought for self-protection is not at all in keeping with the origin or spirit of the sport. That is why many who practice HEMA will not count a strike as valid if you end up being hit in the process or shortly enough after that it is obvious that the other person was in the process of striking you as well, and either one of you, or both of you, ignored that danger in favor of trying to land your own blow. That is called doubling and is considered to not be a point and not be desired.
Sounds like you had a good teacher.
This parallels fencing exactly.
-AAC
@@swordmastery Yes he was! He had been a New York City heavyweight golden gloves champion in the late 80's...luckily after Tyson's time! When I trained under him he was a middle aged man who's professional career was cut in it's infancy by a serious car accident. But though he hadn't competed for some years, it was still nearly impossible to catch him with anything clean.
How we skirmish in the 1595 Club gives opportunity to pain.
We use IronGate Armory Synthetic Cutlass.
We wear fencing jackets and masks.
But the jackets aren’t so thick that if I get stabbed or chopped, it doesn’t hurt.
It can leave a bruise.
The pop against our masks is also quite loud and jarring.
I find this to be focusing, motivating.
Now, I wish to find a way to maintain form, reflexes and fighting intelligence between controlled predicable forms, and full on skirmishing.
Find some bridged training across the two neural challenges.
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." M. Tyson
My instructor has taken these points to heart and I am ever greatful for it. We usually train with padded sticks and little to no padding on ourselves, and every so often a blunt sword or wooden stick gets thrown in and it changes everyone's level of energy. You have to respect the weapon just like your opponents fists.
I agree 150%
When I first started karate fighting in the ring in the 70s, we fought bareknuckle.
Then everyone started breaking out pads gloves; shin guards and headgear .
Fighters became more bold behind their armor.
Then Point Karate 🥋 made the scene.
Karate descended into Freeze-Tag.
Karate Bullshit detectors fell off into the cult of Bullshido 😢
Yup. Earned my shodan in 86. Today's karate is just playing tag.
I fought heavy in the SCA in the 1990s. We fought with rattan sticks. The guy that taught me to fight wouldn't let me wear armor for the 1st few months too encourage good defense. Rattan might not break bones but full contact blows hurts like hell. There where days when I could barely walk out of fighter practice from the bruises. Guess what, I learned how to defend.
I just started HEMA and agree with you about fencing.
As a french boxer i understand 👍. We have 2 types of sparring in our style. "Assaut" vs "combat". Assaut is more point sparring aka dull swords and combat is hard sparring with "knockouts possible" aka sharp swords.
Those same terms are used in fencing. An assault refers to a friendly bout and combat refers to a scored bout. No surprise as modern foil and epee come from French heritage.
Pain is the teacher, fear the mind destroyer. Accept that you will feel pain and be fearful, then rule it.
A boxer called Cassius Clay, was a master of defence, another called Muhammad Ali got hit a lot, was older. Of course you can hit with full power in fencing, due to the protection, but it has NO consequences, unlike boxing. Of course today arguments "ad hominen" (against the man not the idea, Guy Windsor here) are so prevalent that they all do it, they are still a fallacy of logic. 💘 Love the comments. Cheers.
I started in jkd and then got into boxing shortly after is partially the reason i think i was so successful in boxing.
I forgot I have tried trusting with a live smallsword, interesting that such a dainty weapon could be so dangerous. Cheers
My HEMA instructor has always said that rule #1 is "dont get hit" rule #2 is "try to hit the other guy without breaking rule #1" I dont consider any hit clean if I get hit back as a result. Just two dead idiots.
I agree that the stakes are higher in boxing than they are in fencing and that, for instance, modern Olympic boxing is closer to a real fight than modern Olympic fencing is to a real swordfight. At the same time, I'm not seeing in this video what reasoning there is for fencers to train like boxers. There are definitely fencers who do stupid things that don't work, but inherently any sport is going to maximize for those strategies that result in success within a given ruleset. As such, fencers being goofy on the strip aren't going to make it out of their pools and no one is going to be encouraged to replicate what they're doing.
We used to fence sabre in nude torso but in very "special# times, just wearing glove and mask. I didn´t like it very much but we learned to respect fencing basics.
I’ve taken sabre lessons stripped to the waist. In fact, I have a really good story about that. Get me drunk enough and I might tell you sometime.
One thing about bare-chested sabre: you sure as hell learn where your parries are in hurry!
-AAC
Very wise, swords 🗡 are dangerous objects and should always be treated with precaution. I would add that the respect should be extended to practice swords in order to create good habits. Is infuriating 😣 when they treat the weapons as if they were tennis 🎾 rackets or something similar. By the way, how come boxers are in such magnificent shape? Training, training and more training. We should imitate that. Cheers
Arnisadores and Escrimadores old timers also say the same thing. They despise the modern tournaments with padding and head gear.
Timing and distance management is lost.
The classical styles in the provinces still retain their use of measure and I guess this is because they still use the Att for self defense in near lawless parts of the country.
I like you... You said the obvious thing that would been ludicrous for any weapon arts 100s of years ago. "Hit before getting hit" practicing to get hit and potentially die.
Excuse me if this is a bit off-topic, but I'm genuinely curious: What are your thoughts on mixed martial arts, or MMA?
Can you be more specific? Thanks!
I remember a friend fencing sabre with a nude torso, to impress a girl 😀 Cheers
"The fear of pain can be a helpful training tool, one which fencers lack" - well when they practiced with real swords there was a risk, plus they also practiced wrestling
Yes 👍 yeees! You can train to hit in boxing, and hit for real later 😀 you today, can't do that in fencing. Up to the beginning of the XX century, swords had real life applications in warfare, and duels of course, reputedly the first kill done by the British in 1914 was done with a sword! Now please join the dots 🤔 YOU PRETEND IN FENCING NOTHING MORE. That modern fencing with the mutual suicide is stupid, albeit a lot of fun, I'll grant. Swords when SHARP behave differently that blunts, so is useful to compare, (they bind to reach other). Also edge alignment is vital, and useless in modern saber. There is a lot of truth in what you say, when applied in moderation. Cheers
Personally, I’ve never found stupidity very entertaining, which is why I don’t follow politics.
I would submit that there is a difference between “pretending” and “simulating,” the difference being in degree sufficient to make a difference in kind.
-AAC
Have you ever used sharps? They change how you 👀 see your fencing. I have used sharps only solo, I truly don't trust my ability with them to put anyone at risk. There is even a risk of hurting yourself, a live 🗡 weapon is always dangerous. And Fencing is always play (and hopefully a lot of fun 😀 also) today. Cheers
I have used a sharp sword in iaido. Also for “test cutting.”
I do not and would not cross blades using sharps, nor would I permit such nonsense to occur in my presence.
-AAC
No, no, noooo! You are pretending, you CAN NOT TRAIN LIKE IN BOXING, because you would die, or be severely injured. Obvious, you can treat the sword like it's real, BUT IT'S NOT and CAN'T BE REAL. Unless you decided to do "mensur" and even that is strictly regulated! Do a bit of soul searching, and be more modest. Or go and have a real duel, and if you survive, tell us about it. By the way, Guy Windsor does train with sharps, very, very carefully. Do you? Cheers
Training "very very carefully" with sharps is just larping, you are not training you are playing around to get a thrill. Duelling is not a sport you don't "train duelling", you train the skills useful for duelling wich is exactly the origin of Foil Fencing (we already figured it out hundreds years ago people) and you simply can't do so effectively without nerfing. Its like pretending people training to shoot fake nuclear missiles are invalid ,and people training to shoot tazers are more valid because they can even test it on themselves to experience the effects of their weapon. They are two different levels of blood sports the ones where your quality of life decrease and the one where your life end, its not that complicated to understand that the more risks you take in your training for latter the less skills you are going to develop. Fear of getting hurt is not conducive to learning how to hurt people which is the entire point of a duel, if you are at the point where you want it as "real as possible" to the point where fear of serious injury is involved then why be "very very careful" with it?
We have a technical term for people who cross blades with sharps: “idiots.”
In my opinion, if you’re fencing with sharps, you don’t need a fencing master; you need a shrink!
-AAC
@@swordmastery that is lazy answer. You can say you are training for combat. Then say if use it for combat you need a shrink. You either training for combat or larping
Oh man, I met guy windsor at an event in december, for a whole weekend. He is an old person who does never ever spar. Doesn t look like an athlete at all. He collects swords and sells books, which is very decent but he ain t no cossack at all 😂😂😂 you got it very wrong