Calling “touche”in life, even when it doesn’t benefit you, is what makes someone honourable and decent. It reminds me of when John McCain defended his political rival Barack Obama, calling him a decent human being. Then a more recent “president” called his rival John McCain a loser for having been a POW. We need more honourable people and fencing is a great vehicle to teach that!
Australian cricketer Adam Gilchrist was known for 'walking' if he considered himself to be out, even contrary to the umpire's decision. Class sportsman.
It is very unfortunate that sport fencing has devolved into what it is today. I was in the Edmonton Fencing Club through the 80's but by then they had a Russian coach who was all about winning. The hyper competitive mindset had almost completely infected the club. All the classical fencers got pushed out. I did epee for a while but was, at 24, deemed too old to bother with. Didn't fence again until 2010 when I started rapier with SCA.
If honorable behavior is not enough motivation, a purely transactional basis for honestly and openly acknowledging a "Touch"(or any failure) is simply higher skill development. A failure creates a boundary condition for a skill. Honestly recognizing it to yourself identifies gaps in the training of the skill set, whether in technical execution, psychological preparation or general physical preparedness. Denial of weakness ensures perpetuation of weakness. Lying to yourself is the worst self harming behavior in every endeavor of life, because you have to manufacture excuses for failing instead of solutions. As they say in the Infantry "The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters."
Certainly some good words of wisdom. I only studied classical fencing in the early 1990's then moving on to making fencing my primary passion in the SCA for the next 30 years. As we strive to practice fencing as it was over 400 years ago we only dry fence and call our own touches acknowledging the good blows of our opponents. And though I suspect I might have lost one or two tournaments over all those years due to someone being reluctant to call the blow, I have found it to be quire rare. And really, "winning" is not the primary thing. Besides striving to becoming the best fencer I could become, what I sought to really win was the respect of my opponents and of our fencing community as a whole... and now that I am no longer able to fence that is what I treasure the most.
as someone who does a deffierent kind of fencing i absolutely love that you bring this up and shall share it to the masses this uplifting approach and being classy in victory is so important
Sportsmanship - Paolo di Canio playing for West Ham in 2000 against Everton. West Ham had lost the last six games against Everton but towards the end of the game the Everton goalkeeper came out to challenge for the ball against a West Ham player. The keeper suddenly collapsed and the other player crossed the ball high to Di Canio. All he needed to do was put his head on it into an open goal for the win. Di Canio could see the keeper was still down obviously badly injured. He caught the ball in mid air, looked to the referee and pointed at the keeper who was lying on the floor in agony with a dislocated knee. Di Canio was an odd character, brilliant footballer, prone to eruptions on the pitch ... effectively ended his own footballing career by giving a fascist salute at an Italian football game in 2005. A man of contradictions.
Absolutely fantastic video. Nice to meet another who understands what fencing is all about. You just happened to state it better than I ever have on almost 50 years. You are right though, fencing for me lost it's luster with the influx of the light and bell in the mid 80's. A time where calling touches against you made you smile for your opponent. It was a different era. I time when we still appreciated the art. Let me express the motion in my soul Let me move freely over the ground Let me feel the softness of the steel Give me a blade, and let my heart dance.
Thank you for sharing this and explaining it in a clear and concise way. Modern Olympic Fencing, while athletically impressive, has terrible sportsmanship. The bits I've seen, generally, it's like watching two people treat each other as robots. I have been doing Historical Fencing for a little while now, and our school has roots in Classical Fencing- we call every touch against us, and decline every touch we don't think we made. This behavior is not widespread at HEMA tournaments we participate in, though I have noticed that more and more people do call their touches when fencing against our students. I hope that we can continue spreading a culture of honor and respect. Thank you for aiding in that. :)
It's kind of sad, really. I was taught classical fencing at university in the mid 70's. Hits were counted against you so you had to protect yourself. We used french grips and learned to manipulate the foil with our fingers only. It was more fun and more artistic.
Indeed, Maestro. One should always strive to be humble in victory & gracious in defeat. Ah, but leave at least *some* room for skilled bravado, Maestro. For flair. That je ne sais quoi of mastery showmanship. Skilled audacity is a thing of beauty to behold, a terror to face. This is a tournament, after all. Finishing with a flourish is what wows the crowd.
This kind of spirit is sadly largely lost in the world of sports (or the world in general) but traces of it can still be seen mainly in rugby and sometimes in cricket.
Well said! That's pretty much the way I was taught in the late 1960s, though not calling out all those French terms. It was quite a shock after our old club folded and I joined another - I was told I was doing classical fencing, which I had never heard of, and that they didn't teach it like that anymore. I continue to fence that way though. Now I'm focusing on smallsword fencing, which I think is better without the electrical scoring - we both know when we're hit, and when light touches don't count.
That seems very pragmatic to me. In the matter of life and death, calling touches is a way to remain objective about your chances of survival and correct defects. If you're not honest with yourself, probably you're going to get turned into a pin cushion in a real duel. Ah, this seems like it'd be fun.
Thank you. A very interesting perspective for times in which honesty seems as rare as common-sense. I know nothing about fencing except that I trained occasionally with colleagues who had fencing experience and found them to be skilful adversaries [I did HEMA style sparring -- protective gear, wooden and plastic weapons for a decade+]. In my experience training with a small group regularly and various other individuals from other styles; the best training came with people who were not afraid to admit that they had been "hit"; the worst, no matter how skilfull, were those who routinely denied that they had been touched out of egotistical reasons. P.S. One lesson that I/we learned early on when free sparring was introduced was that in a match between equal opponents ... it wasn't scoring that was difficult, it was surviving that moment without getting touched in return! One of the reasons that I never liked the tendency in some clubs to allow winning techniques that allowed you to ignore the fact that you had lost an arm taking out the opponent.
I'm hard pressed to have a conversation with someone that doesn't make up blatant lies to "win" at smalltalk, let alone someone willing to speak the truth at their own detriment. If you live that kind of life, it will be an honorable but difficult one, especially in the modern corporate world.
I've never done fencing but it's for sure fascinating stuff! My sword work has been kendo taijitsu and combat ju jitsu. Essentially all katana bokken stuff. I hadn't done it for over twenty years and enjoying starting again. Rusty, but it's all still there. 😀
This reminds me of old-school ultimate frisbee, which was played without referees. In some leagues it still is. I think a lot of small sports work kind of like this, because they're more collaborative rather than competitive.
In HEMA clubs this is pretty much standard, we just don't have any official terms for this. I guess this is one of the advantages that not being a big sport brings.
I’ve noticed so many sports where a player points to the sky thanking god for the home run, touchdown, scoring the goal, whatever. I’ve never seen one thank god for striking out. The same god who is responsible for everything.
I would love to learn fencing. Miyamoto Musashi has been a sensei to me about life hardships with honor. Jesus said "two swords is enough..Musashi sensei said "One Way, two swords" Both agreed. No honor with guns.
HEMA is the study and practice of historical European fighting systems and generally encompasses the span of time from the late 19th/very early20th centuries to the Medieval period. This includes the study of surviving treatises on the art of combat as well as reconstructions based on accounts and archaeology. The systems practitioners study were actual fighting styles, both armed and un-armed, that were used by people in those periods for various forms of combat. And also covers a vast array of weapons. * * * * * * * From what I know of it, Classical Fencing is a sport that evolved out of the Foil training systems of the late-19th century mode of Small-Sword/Epee and Military-Sabre fencing, emphasizing point scoring and sporting contests over practical dueling skill. Though that isn't to say that they couldn't handle themselves. There's a channel called Schlager7 that has footage of numerous duels fought in the last century by people who would have been Classical Fencers. Their training goal was simply different from their forebears'.
HEMA and classical fencing aren't that different at their core. They both focus on historical martial arts and treat swords as if they’re sharp. Classical fencing is an established dueling system; it’s culminated over time to be a clear structure that’s all about precision, form, and efficiency. Its a complete finely tuned system for foil, sabre, and epee in a martial context based on hundreds of years of evolutionary thought. We know what it looks like, we have existing video of it, we have photographs and we have a clear lineage that can be traced back to its early maestros. On the other hand, HEMA is a bit more experimental. A lot of it involves digging through old, sometimes incomplete texts to figure out how people fought with different weapons-like longswords, sword and buckler, or rapier. We will never know exactly what these things looked like in action because we don't have video or photographs, so HEMA folks try to piece these things together through trial and error. For example, in the case of Polish Sabre, there are no surviving treatises so its mostly just made up of what we know of adjacent texts of the time period and other regional fencing styles that existed in the same time period. From my own personal experience, HEMA is having fun re-inventing the wheel, solving problems that have already been largely solved, and arriving at the same conclusions that led to classical fencing. Its evolving into something of a mixed martial arts style. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but classical fencing is there, its advanced, and one can learn everything they need to know about martial fencing from it and apply that knowledge to any historical weapon of their choice.
Calling “touche”in life, even when it doesn’t benefit you, is what makes someone honourable and decent.
It reminds me of when John McCain defended his political rival Barack Obama, calling him a decent human being. Then a more recent “president” called his rival John McCain a loser for having been a POW. We need more honourable people and fencing is a great vehicle to teach that!
i often marvel at how no matter the culture it always seems to be the sword that teaches the philosophy of manliness and warriorship.
Australian cricketer Adam Gilchrist was known for 'walking' if he considered himself to be out, even contrary to the umpire's decision. Class sportsman.
It is very unfortunate that sport fencing has devolved into what it is today. I was in the Edmonton Fencing Club through the 80's but by then they had a Russian coach who was all about winning. The hyper competitive mindset had almost completely infected the club. All the classical fencers got pushed out. I did epee for a while but was, at 24, deemed too old to bother with. Didn't fence again until 2010 when I started rapier with SCA.
If honorable behavior is not enough motivation, a purely transactional basis for honestly and openly acknowledging a "Touch"(or any failure) is simply higher skill development. A failure creates a boundary condition for a skill. Honestly recognizing it to yourself identifies gaps in the training of the skill set, whether in technical execution, psychological preparation or general physical preparedness.
Denial of weakness ensures perpetuation of weakness.
Lying to yourself is the worst self harming behavior in every endeavor of life, because you have to manufacture excuses for failing instead of solutions.
As they say in the Infantry "The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters."
Certainly some good words of wisdom. I only studied classical fencing in the early 1990's then moving on to making fencing my primary passion in the SCA for the next 30 years. As we strive to practice fencing as it was over 400 years ago we only dry fence and call our own touches acknowledging the good blows of our opponents. And though I suspect I might have lost one or two tournaments over all those years due to someone being reluctant to call the blow, I have found it to be quire rare. And really, "winning" is not the primary thing. Besides striving to becoming the best fencer I could become, what I sought to really win was the respect of my opponents and of our fencing community as a whole... and now that I am no longer able to fence that is what I treasure the most.
You summed up my 10 years in martial arts in one video. Thank you.
as someone who does a deffierent kind of fencing i absolutely love that you bring this up and shall share it to the masses this uplifting approach and being classy in victory is so important
Sportsmanship - Paolo di Canio playing for West Ham in 2000 against Everton. West Ham had lost the last six games against Everton but towards the end of the game the Everton goalkeeper came out to challenge for the ball against a West Ham player. The keeper suddenly collapsed and the other player crossed the ball high to Di Canio. All he needed to do was put his head on it into an open goal for the win. Di Canio could see the keeper was still down obviously badly injured. He caught the ball in mid air, looked to the referee and pointed at the keeper who was lying on the floor in agony with a dislocated knee.
Di Canio was an odd character, brilliant footballer, prone to eruptions on the pitch ... effectively ended his own footballing career by giving a fascist salute at an Italian football game in 2005. A man of contradictions.
Such a great talk/lecture. You still see that spirit in both KENDO and JODO. Thanks so much for sharing 👏👏👏👏🙏🏿
This is one of the better videos on RUclips!
Absolutely fantastic video. Nice to meet another who understands what fencing is all about. You just happened to state it better than I ever have on almost 50 years. You are right though, fencing for me lost it's luster with the influx of the light and bell in the mid 80's. A time where calling touches against you made you smile for your opponent. It was a different era. I time when we still appreciated the art.
Let me express the motion in my soul
Let me move freely over the ground
Let me feel the softness of the steel
Give me a blade, and let my heart dance.
Thank you master for showing us how much wisdom there is in the Western way of the sword.
Thank you for sharing this and explaining it in a clear and concise way. Modern Olympic Fencing, while athletically impressive, has terrible sportsmanship. The bits I've seen, generally, it's like watching two people treat each other as robots. I have been doing Historical Fencing for a little while now, and our school has roots in Classical Fencing- we call every touch against us, and decline every touch we don't think we made. This behavior is not widespread at HEMA tournaments we participate in, though I have noticed that more and more people do call their touches when fencing against our students. I hope that we can continue spreading a culture of honor and respect. Thank you for aiding in that. :)
How many years was i longing for these words, thank you, Sir.
Well done. You've made me a believer. The world needs Classical Fencing. And lots of it.
Great life lesson.
Reflexive integrity
Mind blown. Excellent philosophy. I'd send my kid to your fencing school any time.
This gives a whole new meaning to the term "live by the sword"! It was a beautiful concept described in this video.
Fantastic lesson, thank you
Wonderful. I've been practicing Kendo for some decades now and in its true and proper context follows much the same concepts. Thanks so much for this.
I was brought up in classical fencing in England in the 80s.. when I came back to the States it was very different..
It's kind of sad, really. I was taught classical fencing at university in the mid 70's. Hits were counted against you so you had to protect yourself. We used french grips and learned to manipulate the foil with our fingers only. It was more fun and more artistic.
Also, it was on the honour system so we acknowledged touches.
@@wiskadjakI prefer French grips and I have converted my son to them also...
A wonderful message impecably delivered.
Indeed, Maestro. One should always strive to be humble in victory & gracious in defeat. Ah, but leave at least *some* room for skilled bravado, Maestro. For flair. That je ne sais quoi of mastery showmanship. Skilled audacity is a thing of beauty to behold, a terror to face. This is a tournament, after all. Finishing with a flourish is what wows the crowd.
This kind of spirit is sadly largely lost in the world of sports (or the world in general) but traces of it can still be seen mainly in rugby and sometimes in cricket.
Well said! That's pretty much the way I was taught in the late 1960s, though not calling out all those French terms. It was quite a shock after our old club folded and I joined another - I was told I was doing classical fencing, which I had never heard of, and that they didn't teach it like that anymore. I continue to fence that way though. Now I'm focusing on smallsword fencing, which I think is better without the electrical scoring - we both know when we're hit, and when light touches don't count.
R E S P E C T 🙏🏼
That seems very pragmatic to me. In the matter of life and death, calling touches is a way to remain objective about your chances of survival and correct defects. If you're not honest with yourself, probably you're going to get turned into a pin cushion in a real duel. Ah, this seems like it'd be fun.
Thank you. A very interesting perspective for times in which honesty seems as rare as common-sense. I know nothing about fencing except that I trained occasionally with colleagues who had fencing experience and found them to be skilful adversaries [I did HEMA style sparring -- protective gear, wooden and plastic weapons for a decade+]. In my experience training with a small group regularly and various other individuals from other styles; the best training came with people who were not afraid to admit that they had been "hit"; the worst, no matter how skilfull, were those who routinely denied that they had been touched out of egotistical reasons.
P.S. One lesson that I/we learned early on when free sparring was introduced was that in a match between equal opponents ... it wasn't scoring that was difficult, it was surviving that moment without getting touched in return! One of the reasons that I never liked the tendency in some clubs to allow winning techniques that allowed you to ignore the fact that you had lost an arm taking out the opponent.
I'm hard pressed to have a conversation with someone that doesn't make up blatant lies to "win" at smalltalk, let alone someone willing to speak the truth at their own detriment. If you live that kind of life, it will be an honorable but difficult one, especially in the modern corporate world.
most excellent
So...personal honor. ❤
Thanks for this gem of intelligence Master
I've never done fencing but it's for sure fascinating stuff! My sword work has been kendo taijitsu and combat ju jitsu. Essentially all katana bokken stuff. I hadn't done it for over twenty years and enjoying starting again. Rusty, but it's all still there. 😀
Awesome. Thankyou. I'm gonna bring this to my Tae Kwon Do sparring. No school like the old school.
This reminds me of old-school ultimate frisbee, which was played without referees. In some leagues it still is. I think a lot of small sports work kind of like this, because they're more collaborative rather than competitive.
Most eggcellent. Qui morituri te salutant.
Merci! Very important message.
That video perfectly summed up, what is wrong with the way people have been raised the last 50 odd years.
Thanks doc, never to many reminders on this point.
Excellent message.
Bravo!
Interesting! You have a fantastic speaking voice
Who remembers Touche Turtle?
In HEMA clubs this is pretty much standard, we just don't have any official terms for this. I guess this is one of the advantages that not being a big sport brings.
Thank you
I’ve noticed so many sports where a player points to the sky thanking god for the home run, touchdown, scoring the goal, whatever. I’ve never seen one thank god for striking out. The same god who is responsible for everything.
...and then there are those who claim hits when there were none.
touche
I would love to learn fencing. Miyamoto Musashi has been a sensei to me about life hardships with honor. Jesus said "two swords is enough..Musashi sensei said "One Way, two swords" Both agreed. No honor with guns.
Honor does not depend on the the thing that fills your hand. All implements are the same in this way.
random viewer here. never watched a video on fencing, got a life lesson instead!
what is the difference between HEMA and Classical Fencing?
Attitude and width.
HEMA is the study and practice of historical European fighting systems and generally encompasses the span of time from the late 19th/very early20th centuries to the Medieval period. This includes the study of surviving treatises on the art of combat as well as reconstructions based on accounts and archaeology.
The systems practitioners study were actual fighting styles, both armed and un-armed, that were used by people in those periods for various forms of combat. And also covers a vast array of weapons.
* * * * * * *
From what I know of it, Classical Fencing is a sport that evolved out of the Foil training systems of the late-19th century mode of Small-Sword/Epee and Military-Sabre fencing, emphasizing point scoring and sporting contests over practical dueling skill.
Though that isn't to say that they couldn't handle themselves. There's a channel called Schlager7 that has footage of numerous duels fought in the last century by people who would have been Classical Fencers. Their training goal was simply different from their forebears'.
HEMA and classical fencing aren't that different at their core. They both focus on historical martial arts and treat swords as if they’re sharp.
Classical fencing is an established dueling system; it’s culminated over time to be a clear structure that’s all about precision, form, and efficiency. Its a complete finely tuned system for foil, sabre, and epee in a martial context based on hundreds of years of evolutionary thought. We know what it looks like, we have existing video of it, we have photographs and we have a clear lineage that can be traced back to its early maestros.
On the other hand, HEMA is a bit more experimental. A lot of it involves digging through old, sometimes incomplete texts to figure out how people fought with different weapons-like longswords, sword and buckler, or rapier. We will never know exactly what these things looked like in action because we don't have video or photographs, so HEMA folks try to piece these things together through trial and error. For example, in the case of Polish Sabre, there are no surviving treatises so its mostly just made up of what we know of adjacent texts of the time period and other regional fencing styles that existed in the same time period.
From my own personal experience, HEMA is having fun re-inventing the wheel, solving problems that have already been largely solved, and arriving at the same conclusions that led to classical fencing. Its evolving into something of a mixed martial arts style. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but classical fencing is there, its advanced, and one can learn everything they need to know about martial fencing from it and apply that knowledge to any historical weapon of their choice.
I wish I had this guy as my coach.
@@MrDaoJones Thank you for the answer. Very informative.
Golf is predicated on self governing and most, not all, golfers respect that.
👍👍
🖖🤺
If i want to learn french i wood take a french class get on with showing some sword swings or stabs or blocks
You wood? Consider taking English first.