Is Easter Pagan? Debunking debunkery
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Please forgive the title of this video - it's pure click bait.
There's a lot of misinformation about this subject on all sides. From those claiming Easter is entirely 'pagan' with a mere veneer of Christianity, to those claiming it's entirely Christian and has no 'pagan' elements in it whatsoever.
Obviously there is a lot of middle ground between these two extreme positions, and a lot of nuance always gets missed.
I'm in debt to historian Ronald Hutton, a leading expert on historical paganism, in this context and for making distinctions between 'Pagan Residues', 'Surviving Paganism' and 'Pagan Survivals'.
I'd like to touch on three main areas; The alleged Anglo-Saxon goddess 'Eostre', the Easter Bunny and Easter Hare, and the Symbolism of the Easter Egg, then I'll talk about the wider symbology of spring time festivities following the vernal equinox.
As the owner of many hens for many years it just dawned on me that it's quite possible the coloring of eggs is simply an acknowledgment that Spring has sprung. Hens stop laying, or at least slow down, between winter solstice and Spring because they need, I think, 16 hours of sun a day to lay. The coloring of eggs could very well be a celebration that winter really is over, Spring is here, hooray!
Yes, I would say that is definitely a part of it
I think Easter is another of those cases where finding/arguing the "true origin" is far less important than deciding what it means to you/your loved ones personally today. Find your spiritual connections where it feels most magical, and celebrate them without feeling the need to defend them or recruit others to your cause.
Thanks Story Crow for another wonderfully presented and thought-provoking video! I'm so jealous of you being able to study under Ron Hutton - I love that his lectures are available all over RUclips for the rest of us to devour, but I can't imagine the delight of being able to pick the brains of the man himself!
Much love to all at Easter, however (and for whatever reason) you decide to celebrate it!
100 % agree with this 🙏✨
Great work as usual, Story Crow! Of course you were a student of Ronald Hutton. My wife and I love seeing him in so many documentaries and I've ordered one of his books on Amazon. We were fortunate to be at home today because we have to take our son to the doctor and were happy to see your latest video drop. Keep them coming, please. Happy Easter to everyone! Cheers from Alabama!
Ah, glad Ron has fans across the pond too. Thanks for watching, hope your son is ok 🙏☺️
Nicely done. Thank you! I appreciate your reasonable balance, and deference to historical evidence. Sadly, many if not most of my Xtian sisters and brothers bristle at the idea of socio-cultural borrowing. Keep up your good work, and with many thanks!
7:57 the slavic god of sun was called Dadźbóg (Dadjbog/Dazhbog) - the 'giving god' (however some consider Swaróg (Svarog) to be the sun god or Dadźbóg and Swaróg to be the same god) but pisanki/pysanki are also associated with Jaryło (Yarilo) the god of spring and fertility
THATS THE BADGER
THANK YOU 🙏🌞
Easter is Mars worship, the "Jesus" part, not the "Christ" Sun worship part of Christianity.
As with many holidays christianity didn't necessarily "steal" the holiday so much as rebranded it. They created their own holiday and incorporated it many pagan traditions into the holiday as a way of recruiting more followers. For example did Pepsi "steal" the idea for soda pop from Coca-Cola or did they just create a competitive brand that uses many of the same ideas.
Agreed 👍
I generally agree with you. That being said, when you talk to a Pepsi drinker you are less likely to be told “There are no other sodas, only Pepsi. If you’re not drinking Pepsi, you’re evil”. 😅
Nope, Christianity is Mars and Sun worship in a modern form, nothing stolen.
@@simonruszczak5563nothing stolen? You clearly don’t know much about pagan religions
The flip side of that is that it's not uncommon for people to appreciate the more superficial angles of the cultural ties, and rebrand them themselves. For example, I once met a Native Christian girl who was doing traditional-style dances, just on her own time, but instead of giving them these old meanings that were basically nature worship, she made them in honour of God. That's not "stealing" that's just a natural process of people taking what they already know and intentionally refocusing the meaning onto their new beliefs. That's a genuine and perfectly fine change.
That's all very well but I'm just saying that at some point the Hindu-in-origin animals associated with the Chinese Zodiac got mixed up in the modern festival. The hare/rabbit/pika (being all the same in Oriental languages) represent the east, and the bird/chicken/eagle Garuda represent the west, and together they symbolize the sun's rebirth as it sets and rises. Also the word for rabbit used in Japanese literally means cormorant-heron. This goes back to Buddhism where people weren't allowed to eat red meat but were allowed to eat birds. They were given special permission to eat conies as they could be considered birds with their long ears being their wings. So they are still counted with the same counter in Japanese to this day . . .
I think those animals have enough symbolic associations in native European traditions as to render the eastern connection unnecessary, but the symbolic resonance sure is interesting, thank you for sharing 🙏🐇🌞
Happy Easter 🐣
I'm impressed with the clarity and nuance in your presentation, and I do envy your fancy flower-adorned coat. Good stuff!
It needs a re wax, it’s barely waterproof anymore 😂
I love hearing the layering of cultures and concepts that form what we celebrate today. Thank you for sharing this complex tapestry of and history and current theories. One question I have is if the symbolism of the hare is the same as that of the rabbit, at least in the Celtic world? When I search for rabbit folklore I often find hare so I wondered if they were considered the same or are quite different. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and knowledge!
The rabbit is a fairly universal symbol of fertility, but I think the specific association with Easter is much more recent. It was the hare originally, which has been a sacred animal in Britain and Ireland for over 2000 years at least
Thank you so much for this video, I've seen many of debunking videos, on both sides really, and I often find them quite frustrating. I really appreciate how thoughtful and careful and encouraging you were with this material. I especially appreciate your "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" take on Bede, I get SO frustrated when people take an all-or-nothing approach on these matters.
Frustratingly it’s an attitude that seems to permeate every area of life!
Thank you again great video love listening to you Happy Easter just enjoy love and light x
Same to you! ✨🌱🐇🌞
Yes I had heard that originally Easter was pagan. Wonderful to hear your explication based on solid scholarship and not just musings of people who know a little and then think they can explain it all. Thank you for your sane perspective. 🐰PS love Ronald Hutton's work too. He is a marvel. 🐰
Thank you 🙏🌞🌱🐇
I love that you've spoke about this and acknowledged the culture-war problem that tends to plauge online debating. I am hugely symathetic to pagan ways but I do notice a lot of the new age communities have ironically un-critical thinking with this. I like your evolution theory with christian conversion; a way to help think of it is to look at how we slowly converted each holiday from christianity to capitalism, rather than consumerism openly trying to "eradicate" christianity
That is such a good point I wish I’d made it 😂👍
Your job is amazing! Searching the pagans roots! Well done!
Thanks! 🙏🌞🐇
T'anks Eastah Bunny! (Bok! Bok!)
I don't know if you'll get this reference... Did they have those Cadbury Egg commercials over in the UK? Anyway, another good one!
Don’t think so 😂😂😂
@@TheStoryCrowI guess it was M&Ms not Cadbury Eggs. A little bit of Mandela effect there, I think.
ruclips.net/video/tbto52g6LvU/видео.html
Thank you for bringing the knowledge, Crow. I was interested to hear about the symbolic history of the hare. I have felt a spiritual connection to them but never thought of them as exalted. Sometime I would like to hear more on their symbolic mythic role in the human mind.
Ahh there’s so much about hares. Boudicca used to keep one up her skirts, supposedly for ‘divination’ the minx 😂
I'm understanding that now as I read through the comments-lots of good info from your viewers. Everything from a witches familiar to a symbol of monogamy, speaking of which, I bet Boudicca kept lots of things up her skirts.@@TheStoryCrow
Ostra means East in Norse, and is the root of Austria. Austra means "South" in Latin, hence Australia. But then the Romans always draw their maps wonky.
😂
Great comment
I appreciate your angle on not relating the holiday to the standard rubbish we hear about it being Ostara's holiday.
This was an excellent video! I really like the idea of looking at things like this through the lens of pagan resonances! It absolutely makes sense that there was fertility goddesses worshipped in pagan times after the development of agriculture and that eggs and rabbits would have deep symbolism. However, as you say, we don’t have definitive proof as many of these societies were preliterate. I absolutely agree we have to consider nuance and not overlook the effects of syncretism. In the end, for my practice, connecting to the ideas of the wheel of the year helps me connect to my ancestors and their lives and worldviews. It doesn’t matter to me what was actually going on, because realistically, we’ll never know. It doesn’t invalidate my practice in my eyes. I love Professor Hutton’s work! How awesome it must have been to have him as a teacher! Thanks for all your hard work. Take care.
Thanks for watching and for the thoughtful comment
Yes traditions merging. The way you lean is how and why you celebrate this time of year. I enjoy the folk traditions either way. PS was just looking into Pysanky eggs. So pretty!
Aren’t they lovely? ☺️
Thank you for another well-researched, fascinating and even handed examination of a very complex topic. I am sure Ronald Hutton would be proud!
Glad you enjoyed it ☺️✨🌱
Another great video! I must tell you that every time I watch your videos you remind me of Rik Mayall (this is the highest compliment one can receive).
😂😂😂
I'm a Wiccan but here is an idea; moving forward we can get along with Christians so long as both sides respect the sense of new life we believe in. Your new life may be the death and resurrection of Christ, but it's not mine. I believe in the new life of nature and energy embodied by a Spring Goddess. Blessed be
Nicely said 🌱🪺🐇
I think the issue - as far as I've seen online, at least - is that some pagans want to rub it in our faces that some of these traditions have pagan parallels or histories. They act like it discredits everything we believe and do. All while the things they're championing (eg. wishing people a happy Eostre in the name of Ostara) have super thin and weak foundations. I mean, I love to celebrate spring (I'm not sure why so many people on both sides seem to think there's something wrong with Christians celebrating spring or drawing inspiration from nature, lol) and so while I might not agree with the theology, I mean... I can understand it and also you're an adult and will make your own choices as to what you believe. But the constant use of poorly-researched historic takes to try to undermine Christian festivals is pretty irritating and doesn't help anything.
Like, even if some of the traditions genuinely did used to be pagan, if people take what was already in their culture and turn it to a new purpose, that's a genuine change reflecting genuine values, and that changed meaning and purpose matters a whole lot. To strip that away just cos they used to attach those things to a different belief is pretty uncool. (Also, I'm not sure why but some of these arguments come across like people think Christians never thought of anything on their own steam - eg everyone else in the world can see the honestly really obvious choice of an egg for symbolizing birth or fertility, but when Christians also do it, it must be pagan resonances - and only borrowed from everyone else under the sun, all while they themselves maintained some kind of purity of spirit because everything was apparently originally theirs and theirs alone - it's just insulting, you know?)
@@aerialpunk well I can't apologize for any other Pagans who talk to you in a way to insult you, but I can tell you that I respect your wish to honor Christian traditions. More importantly than the age of our customs is the current state of our beliefs. Bless your heart and blessed be.
12:32 wow i appreciate that to.
L0ve your knowledgeable balanced information
We should celebrate as much as possible because life on earth has been difficult since the beginning of life. Use whatever excuse you have! I like pagan celebrations because they are about seasonal changes. They are connected with the Earth, which is a very good reason to celebrate. There is documentation of Jesus dying many years later in India, so old Christian sources are not reliable, but life is worth celebrating whenever anyone wants to. Celebrating the new life of spring with eggs and bunnies is very symbolic. Make sure that your chocolate is sourced sustainably because most commercial brands pay the cacao farmers so little that they are destitute. Eco-friendly brands cost more, but they are worth it.
Well said ☺️
OMG I love Ronald Hutton's work too!
He’s a real gem isn’t he ☺️
"I can conceive when I am pregnant" [The Fabled Hare, by Maddy Prior], so a captured hare can have a second litter without mating, appearing capable of virgin birth.
Thanks for that 🐇
The main thing is that the placement of the Christian holidays has been suspiciously done at the same time/dates or close to older traditions! In that sense they culturally appropriated the old holidays.
I left Christianity for more than 30 years and live happily as conscious atheist but will avoid my usual rant this time. Take care and enjoy the spring season.
I’m a little wary of the term cultural appropriation, because of its modern connotations, but essentially yes, there was some serious syncretism going on 😂
Fair play. I feel those who have left Christianity tend to be the most critical of it. Even after 30 years. And that’s totally understandable. My mum was the same, half a century after her catholic convent education 🤷
Ishtar-Ostara-Eostre-Esther-Easter :) Pagan. I also see the Easter egg as having very much in common with the Cosmic Egg, the same one which was created by Eurynome and incubated by the Cosmic Serpent, Ophion. Interestingly, the first Christians were Ophites, or spiritual folk who resonate with Kundalini. The name Ophite or Ophidian comes from Ophion, the serpent of Pelagian tradition. Actually the symbolism of the serpent proves the common origins of all Pagan systems.
Ishtar's son/lover was Tammuz, the God-King who castrated himself and died in remorse as a result of cheating on Ishtar. He was then resurrected or "born again" into an enlightened person.
Really like listening and so educational
Thank you 🙏 ☺️
We were all pagans once …. In the sense that all our ancestors worshiped gods and goddesses that predate Judaism, Christianity and Islam … and many of the old gods survive and are worshiped/acknowledged to this day.
I was raised Christian in a wider family of Catholicism and high Anglicanism … we are a mix of Irish, Scots, French and Yorkshire … and we observed many traditions that are regarded as pagan throughout the year. Holly, Ivy and Mistletoe … huge bunches … decorated the house for Christmas together with the Yule log… we left offerings (including whiskey, carrots and mince pies for Father Christmas and the reindeer on Christmas Eve) whilst also honouring the good folk and pouring libations in our vegetable garden … we were farmers once. I have segued over the years to a more pagan/heathen world view, dallying with Eastern religions and Occultism en route … and retain some of these practices. I am comfortable in my skin but I am no evangelist and respect the beliefs of others without, necessarily, embracing them.
Good wishes and salutations to you and yours and to everyone who visits this wonderful site.
Love this ♥️
At a guess I’d say that given the roots of spring are pretty ancient the roots of Easter are probably very old indeed. 🌱 Oh, I already watched this 🫤
Prof. Ronald Hutton is my absolute go to. Love his lectures. I have a not-so-secret crush on him. 🤭 EDIT: I found out he has a girlfriend… my crush will no doubt remain as a warm patch in my heart, but I never trespass… except maybe some lands🤭
It is simply relates to a celebration of the sun returning to the northern hemisphere, bringing light, warmth and life. An extension, and possibly substitution, of the spring equinox.
I would say that’s broadly true. With a few more bells and whistles.
i REALLY like that you stress the nuance... the answer is not simple!
i thought the strong link between spring and dawn is that, if day and night represent summer and winter, then dawn naturally represents spring, and therefore, the sun rising in the east is where is true no matter where youre at in the world.
Most people are too brainrotted to understand nuance anymore
I think you’re bang on 👍
I like farmer Mikeals explanation of how Easter started.
Haven’t heard that one 🤔
Looking forward to more of ya 😁
🙏 more on the way 😉
Akitu: 3rd Millennium BCE, Ishtar goes to the underworld and dies for three days, then returns to the over-world, bringing with her the flowers and crops
All the people I speak to on the subject of Germanic Paganism (such as the account, on X and I believe on Substack, "Gems of Germanic Literature") are scornful of Shaw's work and think that he makes quite gross mistakes. I personally think Easter is the Anglo-Saxon reflex of the Indo-European Dawn Goddess and that it's actually fairly open-and-shut
I agree that that was a major oversight on his behalf and I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks so. But a lot of the other work in the book is solid, I just think for such a meticulous study in some areas he jumps to some bananas conclusions. Mmm bananas.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
I think we can all agree that chocolate is superior to both christianity and paganism
Excellent video, btw
I will accept this notion 😉
In Poland for Easter we paint eggs (simbol of a pre-life), we collect willow branches so the priest sprinkles them with holy water and then we put them all over the house to provide luck and happiness, then we make a huge fire in front of the church and collectively we burn those branches and pray. Then we collect the ash for the next year celebrations which is another story.
We also walk around the fields and tye priest sprinkles them with holy water so they stay fertile and give many crops in the summer.
But yeah, the neo-pagans will keep claiming that christianity killed our traditions 😂😂😂
Edit: The bunny thing and egg collecting is completely absent in Slavic tradition. I got to know it while playing foreign computer games as a kid and it was weird to me.
That’s interesting, thanks for sharing
Loved it! Thank you❤
Glad you enjoyed it ✨🌞🌱🐇🪺
Just been enjoying Ronald Hutton's Pagan Britain, at the end of the day his answer is we don't really know. And you know what, that's good enough.
You're quite right, people today want binary yes or no answers,which is a shame because they miss all the beauty in between.
By the way those birches are beautiful
Thank you
You’re totally right. I love him for that. Presents the most meticulous study of a controversial subject and then just shrugs his shoulders and says, anybody’s guess 😂
But Christians also had egg painting traditions going back to second-century Rome.
They did, but we don’t know where they come from. It’s plausible that pre Christian traditions syncretised with Christian ones, as was the case in some Slavic traditions. But some might have had nothing to do with that. We just don’t know.
Great information !!!
Glad it was helpful 😊
I would say the hare is Brythonic
Yeah, I don’t disagree. But very important historically on the island of Ireland too.
In many ways if there is pagan influences they're really irrelevant. The Easter Bunny and Easter Eggs are fine if want to entertain the kids, but for many who were brought up Christian it's all about Christ's resurrection. Getting older I get more attached to the religious aspect of the holiday and this is what sticks with me, not the vague pagan ties that may exist. I do understand that Christmas has pagan ties because they competed with other religions and the early Christians simply decided to keep certain things rather than discard them. Halloween also is the same. Easter on the other hand, at least for me, doesn't have that connection to something else. I think some people are just trying to deride the holiday by claiming vaguely there are pagan ties. They may be there, but for most people it's all about Jesus's resurrection and not much else, especially getting away from European influences.
I don’t know about ‘most people’ in fact I can’t think of a single person round these here parts that spares a single thought for Christ’s resurrection at this time of year 😂😂😂
but yes, in religious parts of the USA cut off from old traditions I’m sure that’s right
Not to rain on your parade, but, the whole death of a saviour who rides three days later us a gnostic thing that can literally be seen in the stars and follows through to many traditions.
In other words, Jesus's death and resurrection are far from original, and far from unique to Christians. No reason for you to lose your faith, but it should be remembered .
Yes, it goes back to Ancient Babylon and Egypt, possibly older. The Christian church co-opted many Pagan festivals and deities, turning them into Christian holidays and saints.
It's when Roman soldiers would march back into war.
Yes! It was and still is
Enjoyed that
Love a good tussle between men of the cloth and a calloused druid!
Let me explain Easter, as described by my adult son
“So Mum, Good Friday is a bank holiday”?
Yep
“And the Saturday is a just a Saturday”?
Yep
“And Easter Sunday is when Jesus rolled out of the cave?” 😳
It begs the question, was Ninja Jesus a pagan ?
😂 brilliant
Thanks!
Thank you! ☺️☺️☺️🙏
Everyday is Pagan if you are doing it right.
😂👍🌞
So many other crows cawing in the background. Happy Odin’s or Wotan’s day… Skol
There’s an ancient trackway behind me called ‘crow road’ on old maps. Wodens minions have been here a very long time…
I can think of other things that are a bit silly.
😉🙏
18:16 I think those massacred at Verdunn by Charlemagne would like to have a word with you!
Very true 😂
I’m just saying that wasn’t the case in all instances ALL RIGHT??
Good point tho
Well they called him Rabbi. Eventually someone would surely misconstrue Rabbi as Rabbit, and hence we get the easter bunny.
😂 excellent.
Or should I say….. eggcellent
🪺
A Priest, an Oman and a Rabbit walk into a bar. The Bartender asks how he can help, and the rabbit says: Don't ask me, I'm just here because of autocorrect.
Thx Crow! Just as Xmas supplanted Yule in the calendar, so did Easter do to the Spring rituals of the heathens. Both holidays took on native symbols. That shouldn’t bug believers in either religion too bad, so let’s just all hide painted eggs for to kids to find and be grateful that we survived another winter. That was never a given in olden times or our own. The wheel keeps turning.
Well stated 🙏
From Mars worship.
Jupiter (father, Zeus) = "Joseph", Moon/Earth (mother, Hera) = "Mary", Mars (son, Ares) = "Jesus"
Easter happens after a full Moon (Mary). Mar + y ----> Mary
Easotre the spring goddess 😊
🐇🌱🌞🪺
such a great video but I can’t stop thinking about how funny it is that humanity seems to have unanimously chosen to latch onto eggs for whatever reason
It’s universally the time that birds start laying eggs after winter. Pretty obvious if you ask me. It’s because it’s finally warm enough for their babies to survive.
I celebrate spring it's not my business what other people do
Well said and fair enough
Pagan...spring solstice..celebration of natural life...death and regrowth of plants and trees..Hxx
🌱🌞🪺🌺
Ēostra (the West Germanic goddess of dawn, not fertility, and likely not Spring either) has lent only her name to the holiday in exactly the same way that other Germanic deities have lent their names to our weekdays in English. Nothing more “pagan” than that.
Many people will assert, that since Ēostra is only attested in a written text from the works of Bede, that he invented her, and this Germanic deity never existed - the place and personal names based on her name however, certainly seem to contradict this.
Bede was born during the early stages of the Christianization of England, when the names of the Anglo-Saxon gods and goddesses would have been common knowledge, and still worshiped in many places. The highly respected father of English history would have been unlikely to invent a goddess of that name. He would have been "called out" on it had he done so. Furthermore, a number of English place names of Saxon origin, such as Eastry in Kent, Eastrea in Cambridgeshire and Eastrington in East Yorkshire, are derived from Ēostra.
The Indo-European root of this name is cognate to other dawn goddesses in Europe; for example, the Roman goddess of dawn, Aurora, has the same root. There are many names of gods and goddesses that still survive in the oral traditions, but are either not evidenced, or very sparsely evidenced in the written tradition. The fact that Ēostra does not appear in the written corpus, does not exclude her existence. The Norse Vanir, for example, appear in only three written sources. The Egyptian ritual of the Five Gifts of Hathor only survives in the oral tradition of Egypt; it is very poorly documented in actual texts.
Further, Ostara (in another form, ‘Austra’) was verified in 1958 with the discovery of more than 150 Roman-Germanic votive inscriptions to the matronae (female deities) Austria-hena near Bonn, Germany which were dated to the 2nd century AD, well before the Christian era in that part of Europe. The evidence of her existence appears to be rather strong. In addition, the mere fact that in the very places she was most prevalent (Anglo-Saxon England and northwest Germany), the name for the pre-Christian spring celebration is still called by her name (Easter and Oster) and was not overtaken by English and German forms of what in Dutch is “paask”, (Easter - derived for Hebrew “pesach” - Passover) strongly speaks to her existence. Clearly, this was not someone merely 'invented' by Bede as some would suggest. It would seem that such a deity did exist in the Anglo-Saxon and northern German pantheon.
Neither eggs nor the hare were associated with her - both are a considerably later addition to her story/mythos.
The Easter Hare ( not a bunny or a rabbit - that’s a considerably more modern version) comes from the Lutherans of Germany (yep, the Easter Bunny is a _Protestant_ thing).
The Easter Hare, however, does not symbolize a thing. None of the egg-bringing animals of folklore are in any way ‘symbolic’ of any one thing, any more than the Tooth Fairy is symbolic of anything. The hare is not symbolic of ‘fertility’ nor of anything else. These are supposed attributes which have been repeated so often, they have become accepted as legitimate truth. Indeed, the hare is not known to be as “prolific” as the bunny or rabbit.
Hares are also known for constructing nest-like structures in fields and meadows - not a huge stretch for parents to tell their kids that’s where all those colorful eggs they were going to hunt came from. There are a lot of folktales regarding the Easter Hare, some of which are still told today.
The Easter Hare came to America by way of German immigrants to Pennsylvania in the 1700’s.
As for eggs at Easter, they were forbidden food during the Lenten fast. Eggs are the product of a warm-blooded animal, all of which were forbidden during Lent; the fish being cold-blooded was an allowed food; hence the association of Lent with eating fish.
Because eggs were forbidden during Lent, on Easter Sunday, eating eggs was regarded as a ‘treat’ of sorts. This was especially true for poorer people who did not keep animals for slaughter and could not afford to buy meat. In anticipation of Easter, in many traditions, the eggs were colored during the last days of Lent to mark the end of penance and fasting. In many countries, the colors used are highly symbolic.
The story of Ostara and the bird does not come from Grimm, it dates to the late 1800's - it's no older than that.
The idea that Easter has pagan roots actually comes from die-hard Protestant fundamentalists in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. In those centuries, many Protestants regarded holidays like Christmas and Easter as “popery” and therefore sought to discredit them by linking them with ancient paganism.
Watch the video 😂😉
I dunno man, the more I watch these videos, the more this funny thought strikes me - it's as if people think Christians can never think of anything on their own, and because someone else had a similar idea, then it belongs to them and not us. Like, the egg thing - eggs being a symbol of fertility and birth is just a really, really obvious connection to draw. So why then would it have "pagan resonances"? Are Christians not allowed to draw any kind of inspiration from nature - the creation of our God - or to celebrate or mark the passage of time (ie things that affect us all in life) just because pagans also do the same thing? Why should that be considered "their" thing so exclusively? What, am I not allowed to have a spring celebration after 5-6 months of a harsh Canadian Prairie winter, just cos that's to do with nature and pagans did it too?
Plus yeah, the meaning of it matters a lot - and where there have been more obvious cases or possible cases of a pre-Christian tradition being changed to suit Christianity, that doesn't actually mean that we "stole" it or that secretly deep down it was still super pagan. People enjoy traditions, and can intentionally choose to keep the parts they like but give a new meaning to it - and yeah, the meaning and intent matters *a lot* with this kind of thing. So like, if painted eggs in Eastern Europe were originally to honour a sun god, and then they converted to Christianity, they might simply turn that activity toward their new god instead of the old one - that doesn't make it a pagan activity though, quite the opposite because the intent is to honour God with it. If there was some ancient symbolism of hares = resurrection (which to be honest sounds iffy to me, but granting it for the sake of argument) then it would be very natural to apply that same symbolism to Jesus - but that doesn't make it pagan, it is no longer pagan once it adopts a new meaning. Or like, many Christians I know are turning away from Halloween as it becomes darker and darker in theme each year - but we still like the community elements and dressing up in costume. So I know some people who have started a different costume day every year and are toying around with that. Does that make it pagan? Of course not. I think there are very few cases where these "pagan roots" things actually matter, once the intent and meaning of the activities and symbols has changed. The ones that do matter, imo, are more linked to theology or philosophy, not symbols or festival activities.
Also, the ties between Jesus and other rising and dying deities are flat-out ridiculous. Like, I've never seen a version of the story of Ishtar going to the underworld that said she was there for 3 days before coming back. I have on occasion seen versions of Egyptian myths that had parallels to Christianity - but, and this is a big but, those versions are the most recent ones in historic records, not the oldest ones; people seem to think that Christians borrow everything under the sun from every pagan religion out there, but nobody ever borrows from Christianity, and that's baseless, especially when you consider those parallels are relatively new and would've arisen after Christ's time. Also, again, where the themes of death and rebirth are there, you are likely to see that superficial similarity - but there's a *very* stark difference between the myth of Tammuz rising and dying over and over again mirroring/explaining seasonal cycles, and the one-off death and resurrection of Jesus as a payment for all sins with a long history of Jewish theology behind it that is all to do with reconciliation with God for our wrongdoings. They are absolutely completely different, and no, the story of Jesus is *not* mapped on to older pagan things. How is making that comparison any different from insisting that the word Easter is derived from Ishtar? We can all see that's not the case, but somehow people overlook these significant theological and historical differences here, because of one very superficial similarity and a half-theme in common.
I sure as heck will not do away with debunking lol. I've seen way, way, way too many poorly-informed or even intentionally malformed ideas floating around out there, and they are treated with so much seriousness by Christians and others alike - but the ideology and evidence isn't there to provide a good grounding. So why shouldn't we say something about that? It's not helpful for anyone to go around thinking that Jesus was ripped off of Horus, or that there was tons of evidence for some spring goddess called Ostara who loved rabbits and eggs. All it does is lead to poor-quality beliefs, and I think that matters a lot.
That the story of Jesus is mapped on to earlier dying / resurrecting gods was certainly not ridiculous to the many Christian apologists arguing for Christian uniqueness throughout history 😂
I find it funny that some contemporary Christians have a problem with this as it doesn’t necessarily threaten Christianity in any way - which can still be viewed as a unique take. See gavin d’costas ‘Christian uniqueness reconsidered’ for a fairly highbrow theological perspective, or c.s Lewis’ ‘miracles’ for a more popular take.
But to actually deny the similarities (rather than play down their significance) is wishful thinking based on ignorance of history.
And nobody is saying Christians ‘stole’ these ideas. Or if they are, that’s very simplistic.
So consider yourself debunked 😂
Only joking. Enjoy your (kinda) unique faith in whatever way you choose and go well 🙏
@@TheStoryCrow Nah man. Those takes completely focus on superficial similarities and ignore all sorts of important differences. Just because Christians aren't the only people in the world to conceive of the idea of someone who died being able to come back doesn't mean that our faith is "mapped onto" pagan myths that make use of that basic idea. Like, the myth of Tammuz is obviously an allegory for seasonal changes in nature, it's cyclical (which fits the whole idea of seasons). Jesus died once, as an offering to reconcile our sins so we can be with God, and rose once, as a way of showing us how we too will be resurrected into a new life one day. It's totally different. And what Jesus' death and resurrection is *actually* mapped into is thousands of years of Jewish history, theology, and tradition - everything from the story of Passover, to the system of sacrifices meant to show the faith of Jews in God's promises as they waited for the Messiah. Likewise, the stories and traditions surrounding Tammuz worship are completely different, have a different historic and social context, and serve a different purpose.
That's completely different, yet you and others *choose* to ignore all that and focus only on one or two superficial similarities. It's poor scholarship. So sorry, just cos you say it's debunked doesn't mean it's debunked. The take you're promoting is weak. You can choose to believe it all you want, I suppose, but you'd do well to consider the entire picture instead of just one or two superficial similarities.
I have considered the whole picture, or certainly more of it then you have, and without the biases of faith colouring my perspective.
Don’t mean to dick swing, but I literally have two degrees in this subject 😂 the theologian mentioned above was my university tutor. Go give him a read. He is a Christian.
Your opinion is not unique, but it does fly against scholarship in the field. I’m afraid I don’t have time to explain all the ways in which you’re actually cherry picking data in the comments section - I’d be here all day, and I doubt anyone else it reading it.
Make a video and I’ll be happy to answer the points in another video, that way more people can join in 🙏
@@TheStoryCrow Lol. Oh sure, because I believe something I'm biased - but you also believe something (the thing you're promoting) and somehow you're not biased? Come on now.
And I have a degree too, in anthropology, and I used to be an archaeologist. So good for both of us. And heaven knows that during the course of my degree, I saw plenty of examples of how much these things can be coloured by personal biases, petty disputes between people, funding, and so on, and so yeah, I'll rest on what I can see with my own two eyes and not just assume that cos some professor wrote a book that he's right about everything.
And no, my opinion doesn't fly against scholarship in the field (which of course implies *all* scholarship in the field). That sounds like cherry picking to me, haha. This is all about interpretations of the data we have, and how things change over time, and what it means to people. So like, even if you have proof that some practice was held over from an old pagan root, that is not the same as saying it has pagan resonances for the people who still practice it - those are two totally different concepts, and one doesn't prove the other. And I mean sure, if you wanna go around saying we have tons and tons of evidence for Ostara and her worship practices, be my guest and post it.
Thanks again for posting. It helps the algorithm. Again though I’d be more then happy to debate with you, but in a public forum where it will be of use to others. Do go ahead and post your views in a video and tag me and I’d be delighted to respond. It’s an interesting topic, with multiple interpretations 😊
Also I don’t believe in or worship Ostara - or think there’s any evidence for her at all in history - i don’t know where you got that from - I think you’re confusing me with a neopagan RUclipsr or something 😂
I’ll leave it here for now. But do share a video, genuinely, I think it could be interesting for people.
Isn't Easter about fertility and rebirth? Celebrated long before monotheism was even concocted no doubt.
I don’t disagree 🌞🪺🌱
@TheStoryCrow I have a feeling neanderthals had similar celebrations to the seasons, but for them, it would have been mainly for an abundance of animals to hunt and successful childbirth. The seasons governed their entire lives, so I think they likely did celebrate in their own unique way.
My Dear Story Crow,
I feel I would be doing you a disservice were I not to draw your attention to a matter of great significance regarding hares, something I indeed expected to hear reference to when you mentioned them. Not having had my direct perception of the hare tainted by the academic and doubtless urbanised interpretations of the contemporary symbolist I was then quite sure that the hare's common appearance and possible relation to fertility in ancient culture would be linked, phenomenologically speaking, to the hare invariably appearing to the observer in pairs; pairs of hares.
As a quite exceptionally virile young man, when my arm was not reaching around at full extension beneath my mattress, I used to hunt rabbits and so the peculiarity of the cousined hare's paired-ness was a particularly noticeable characteristic defining them, above and beyond their curious choice of transit by boinging which is notable to a degree yet not so remarkable when the humble rabbit boings so pervasively, not to say irrepressibly over the summer months, as any yeoman will attest. Indeed, it is the rabbit to whom transit by boinging is most readily attributed due to his being present in far greater numbers across those territories likewise inhabited by the hare, to cite Briggs and Stratton. So the hare has little to write home about there and rarely does, much to his mother's distaste. Cummins and Honda generally concede this point.
To my young, somewhat idealistic, pre French bird mind then, that habit of hares being paired marked them out as unswervingly honourable fellows of The Hedgerow Society for should one be lucky enough to spy Mr Hare prancing about on his afternoon hop across the hilltop, it is all but guaranteed that Mrs Hare will appear close at hand in two shakes of the lamb's tail (the lambs tail was, incidentally, the chronograph of choice among pagans, something even Ronald Hutton has failed to recognise).
Point being, the loyalty exhibited in the hare pair made said hares stand out to me as the most virtuous of boinging creatures and therefore incomparably more majestic, in mind if not in body, than the positively disreputable rabbit whose habit is to bag it and pay no heed whatsoever to the consequences of his actions, least of all the fate of his offspring.
Though admittedly I do not have the ONS data regarding demographic reception of hare monogamy to hand here, I think it fair to suppose I am far from alone in having come to this conclusion regarding the hare pair. I for one then strongly suspect that this idyllically companionable characteristic played upon the mind of the ancient Briton when he regarded the hare pair yonder for it is a quite singular trait among the otherwise altogether amoral conduct of the broader animal kingdom.
With this in mind, if feeling clever, as I indeed am this evening, we might then ask one particularly revealing question: if the hare was indeed associated with fertility in the eyes of the ancients as is postulated, why then was the hare chosen above the rabbit when said rabbit is so very clearly the hare's more virile cousin? It is no accident that the rabbit is naturally associated with fertility and/or virility today for they do indeed go at it like rabbits, conversely, no one is ever caught going at it like hares and what that might entail is anyone's guess being as they are particularly illusive creatures.
Does this peculiarity of the cross-cultural attention awarded the hare over the rabbit by those ancients then reflect a preference and indeed elevation of the principle of longstanding monogamy over unrestrained fertility? Given that the hare and rabbit are for all intent and purposes inseparable to the onlooker in other respects and given that monogamy is, as I put forward here, the defining feature of the hare whilst fertility observably epitomises the rabbit, one might then be forgiven for asserting that, if either, the hare surely is more likely to have been a symbol of monogamy than fertility.
This obviously diverts from the common perception of said ancients rampantly boinging about their stone circles on the summer solstice like so many loved up ravers but I think we can all agree that that flailing, wailing, polyamorous image likely reveals more about the inclinations of 1960's Cambridge students than it does about the various ancient cultures venerating the hare.
Ferguson and Massey recently released a pre-print paper on this by the way which I am paraphrasing to some extent here, their work is well worth a look alongside Briggs and Stratton's exemplary analysis.
Yours sincerely,
J.P.Watson GMO
Gold swimming badge holder.
These are excellent points befitting of a gold swimming badge holder. I do usually see hares in pears 🍐
Once I saw three coming out of a thicket over a long barrow, they ran in an arc about me and then were gone. That felt like stepping directly into the liminal ….
@@TheStoryCrow I have however been duly informed by my publishers that the ignoble rabbit arrived with the dastardly Normans, a fact Massey and Ferguson failed to note. Though a temporary setback, I think this may however add weight to my case in the long-run.
Christmas is too.
Christians stole all the holidays.
It's pagan. And happy to reclaim it. 🏳️🌈
🧚🏻♂️🌱🌞
No not really. Easter follows Passover. Which is not Pagan but Hebrew. A better question is has Easter been influenced by pre-existing traditions? Yes it has. How depends on where you are in the world.
Someone hasn’t watched the video 😂👍
Hebrew is pagan, from Egyptian Exodus immigrants. The Egyptian's pagan religions.
Osiris, Sirius and Horus worship, swapped to Saturn (L), Venus (V) and Sun (7) worship.
L ---> "eL" V -----> "eVe" "Ven-us" ( L = 50, V = 5 )
@@simonruszczak5563 I see your confusion. Hebrew are a People. Not a Pagan faith. Which describes a wide variety of pre-Christian belief systems. Judaism which is the proper name for what Jews (i.e. Judeans i.e. Hebrews) believe is the Jewish faith. It is generally not described as Pagan. Because both Jews and Christians hold they are descended from Abraham and are heirs to the Lord's promise to Abraham. Muslims claim that as well btw. That puts those three faiths, Christian, Judaism, Islam, in a familial relationship unlike other faiths that have no connection to Abraham.
@@patraic5241 Abraham never existed and the Exodus was only 1,500 years ago.
The Egyptians that migrated to Europe observed the (Hebrew) religion of constellation and Sun worship.
When settled in Europe, they transferred their constellation worship to the wandering stars (planets).
Later (about 1000 years ago) catholicism was created (a family of religions), Venus worship became Islam, Saturn worship became Judaism, and both Mars and Sun worship combined to became Christianity.
@@simonruszczak5563 I have no clue where you got all that or any of that. It bears zero resemblance to any information I've ever read. The Hebrew calendar has counted for more than 5000 years since Abraham. Whether Abraham actually existed is a fair question. What matters is that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe he did. The Roman diaspora of the Jews from Israel after the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132 AD is well documented in surviving Roman records. In fact there are several good books available that chronicle the campaign. The conquest of the Kingdom of Judea and Jerusalem was recorded in Roman records in 63 BC. Roman documents describing the Hebrew faith also survive from that time. Again there are good books published about that campaign. Archeological information clearly indicated that Judea and Sumaria had been in existence separately or united for at least 2000 years before the Roman conquest. Catholic was coined sometime in the second century AD by Christians to describe themselves. Roughly 1500 years ago Islam was created and records no mass movement of Jews out of Egypt to Judea at any time. There are scant records surviving before Roman rule but what there is indicates Hittites, Assyrians, Canaanites, Egyptians, Hebrews, and a number of smaller tribes all traded and conducted warfare against each other for millennia BC. As for Sun, Moon, etc worship that sounds a lot like modern pull it out of a hat wishful thinking Paganism. A collage system of beliefs glued together that has poor scholarship at best and none at all at worst. True that's a harsh evaluation of the Paganism movement but it's accurate. I'm glad to provide you with this accurate timeline information. Which you will probably just ignore or rationalize away. At least you will have heard it once.
This has been eating at me for years, i rag on Easter all the time because I didnt understand what eggs and rabbits had to do with Death and Resurrection of Christ. I think Ill be able to enjoy the holiday more so now.
Glad to hear it! 🌞🐇🪺🌱
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology
Darn data so confusing to those who can’t read
Eeesh. What a mess of an article!
But yes, thanks for sharing. Here's the relevant part :
Various cognates associated with the dawn-goddess indeed derive from the Proto-Indo-European root *bheh₂-, meaning 'to glow', 'shine'.[20] ... the Greek Eos as φαινόλις ('light-bringing')
@@TheStoryCrow I have loved Dawn for a long time, but She is also called Lucifer. Sköl, may we make it to Valhalla rather than meet Hel in Her underworld. If you had an L and you get to be hot place of the evangelists.