I agree 100% totally.they shoud have changed there name.as far as am concerned. FISH is 1 in a marillion be good ìt there was 1 last concert with both singers doing there own sets JST FISH N MARILLION WUD DO..I DO LOVE SEASONS END THO🎵.🎻LONG LIVE THE JESTER🎻🎶
@@BehonestBestitchedup Marillion would never have made it if it was not for Fish.... therefore there would never have been a Marillion/Hogarth connection!!!!
Fish+Marillion= Great! just love Fish on vocals! Heard Fish's 2 solo Albums from 1990 debut and the Second Album from 1991. Downloaded the two first albums from Spotify! But just now I have downloaded the rest of his solo Albums! It's gonna be exciting listening! Ps I to like the early Marillion albums from 1983 to 1988. Greetings from Sweden
A Fish man here hands down. Market Square Heroes 12'' with Grendel, Script and Fugazi. Spent many a fine evening watching Marillion in my teens. One of my favourite bands.
100% agree with you on this one Pete, absolutely love the Fish era albums especially Fugazi but the Hogarth era ones do nothing for me at all.If ever a band should have changed their name when they changed singers it’s Marillion in my opinion.
In the minority here, but Hogarth. I've been a fan since '85 and it took me a while to warm to Hogarth, but the overall depth and scope of the Hogarth era gives it the edge. Live, they are simply unmatched. A Marillion show is as close to a spiritual experience you can get from a rock band. The Hogarth era albums don't grab you by the throat like the firecracker Fish era ones do. They slowly seep into your mental space after repeated listenings. You may be bored at first, but then you find your mind playing the songs when you aren't even thinking about it. They call you back. They certainly have some weak material over that time, but I know of no other band in the past 30 years that has maintained their fan base without turning into a nostalgia act. They never just phone an album or a show in. Hogarth for me.
Agree about the concert experience. No current band can even come close. Disagree on many of Hogarth's artistic decisions. Marillion were better with Fish in.
Fish hands down. Not even close. I'll grant that Hogarth has a stronger voice, but the music was so much better in the Fish era. The stuff with H is decent, but the Fish stuff is amazing.
Hogarth has a stronger voice? Can you give me some examples? I haven't heard many Marillion albums with him. I always found his voice rather weak and thin.
@@jans2887 I think he has more range. Cover My Eyes, Map of The World, Waiting to Happen, Afraid Of Sunlight, The Great Escape...there are probably some better examples in their later work, I just found most of it boring. Fish has kind of a one dimensional voice, but it works for me. To me the real Marillion is the Fish era.
@@jans2887 Hello, I too am not a big fan of H's era. But on that live album from the "Less is More" tour, recorded in London (Cadogan, I guess), Hogarth proves how great a singer he is. The man really does whatever he wants with his voice. Give it a try.
Very thoughtful and respectful review. I 100% agree with you. I was introduced to Marillion at their beginnings. Although I gave Hogarth a shot, my allegiance remained/remains with Uncle Fish.
Never understood the Fish vs Hogarth mentality. They are two different bands. Both Fish and Hogarth are great lyricists, vocalists, frontmen,....Hell, they are both extremely Charismatic. They are both artists, poets. But they are very, very different. Appreciate both for their different talents. All 4 Fish albums are masterpieces. They are all killer, no filler. But so are Brave, Afraid of sunlight, Sounds that cant be made, Marbles, ...hell, I even love this strange engine. They are just different bands. Enjoy both eras for what they are.
It actually became kinda cool that the two bands sounded different. Afraid of Sunlight sounds nothing like Sunsets on Empire, but both are brilliant in their own way.
If anything Marillion became more "progressive" after Fish departed because they were less reliant on the template of previous bands of that genre. I still enjoy the early albums as a nostalgia trip, they still have an emotional pull, but the Hogarth era remains relevant to me. Fish's solo career I abandoned after his first album and tour. I think the Hogarth era suffers in comparison just because the amount of albums now available dissipates the impact of some of the best material, but the best songs easily stand up against anything recorded by the earlier iteration of the band. Brave is my go-to Marillion album.
Very well put...I am listening to Brave right now. These Fish fans just dismiss the later stuff without really trying to understand it. F.E.A.R is bloody amazing but it took me 10 listens to really appreciate how brilliant it it really is.
Love both eras, why choose just one? If you haven't given the time to Season's End, Brave, Fear and especially Marbles (my fave H era album), then you are really missing out. The new album, An Hour Before it's Dark, has been a nice surprise as well. Pick it up and support this wonderful band!
I first saw Marillion at Rock City in Nottingham in 1983. I friend I was living with in Derby at the time asked me if i wanted to come along. I wasnt sure as was more into VH etc at the time. Still remember how blown away I was and it changed the course of my music taste for ever. Fish era unquestionably the best. Those lyrics. Just no contest...
To be honest I am pretty tired of those Fish-Marillion to Hogarth-Marillion constant comparisons. Why? Because it's almost like two different bands for me (apples and oranges). First of all, Fish has completely different style of singing than Hogarth, and secondly the music also significantly changed since Hogarth joined the band (apart from the fact they recycled unused musical ideas from "Clutching at straws" on "Seasons End"). Hogarth was not only singing, and he was not merely a replacement - he has also created music and he brought his own musical style and flavour to the table from the very beginning of his adventure with Marillion (though I am aware not everyone liked it). As far as lyrics are concerned, I could agree that Hogarth may be indeed a little less "poetic" than Fish, although I think H is a very good writer and he touches on a very important issues in his lyrics. And surely he has matured a lot as a writer since "Seasons End". From "Brave" onwards, he started to become more and more competent as a lyricist. Depending on the mood, I would pick something from Fish, or something from H's era of the band. But I must admit that however I love both Marillions equally, I am personally somehow more emotionally attached to H's voice than to Fish's voice. And these days, when it comes to live performances, Fish has unfortunately pretty much lost his voice, while Hogarth is still damn strong and solid as a singer live. Favourite Fish-era album: Clutching at straws Favourite Hogarth-era album: Brave/Afraid of sunlight Greetings to all Marillion(s) fans.
Stumbled across this video. I wholeheartedly endorse this comment, which saved me from typing much the same thing. I love Fish-era Marillion, but at most that band had one more album in it and it would have burned out. By the mid-nineties Fish's voice had already changed and he was writing different material - doubt he could have sung most of his back catalogue even then. Yet I think his solo albums in that period (Vigil, Suits and Sunsets) were superb. Similarly, Hogarth gave the band an extra 25 great years - while I'm not as attached to the material after Brave, each version of the band had definite creative high points, and H was a phenomenal live singer. On reflection, I wish they had changed the band name before Season's End so we wouldn't need to have these debates. As much as Marillion's '83 to '88 period is timeless (and I think Clutching at Straws may be the best album from either version) I'd say the split was on balance good for both artists, as we got some great material that was 'true' to both camps. If they'd forcibly stayed together a few years longer, it may have ended even more horribly and we'd have ended up with neither legacy.
I bought the FEAR CD and thought it was quite good and saw the band on their American tour. A couple days later, I got an email from the band saying they were going to play the Royal Albert Hall for the first time. I had to be there and amazingly got tickets on the phone. My girl and I saved up for a year to make a one week vacation to London, with the Marillion show right on the middle.Great show and I met people from all over the world (literally). Perfect vacation.
My Marillion collection ends at Seasons End. Totally agree here with you. The Fish years were just magic. That Genesis like quirkyness left with Fish and remained with him.
I liked Marillion from the very start. I saw the very first concert with Steve R in 1989 and carried on liking them until This Strange Engine. Then, I never bought or even listened to an album thereafter. I've just looked up the discography and there's 10 ish album after that! Can someone suggest which one of those to try out!
FISH!!!! I tried the Hogarth stuff, but it was never the same. The emotion of Fish and his lyrics just sticks to me. With Hogarth, it is a whole different band. I stoped buying Marillion stuff after the second Hogarth album. But sadly, Fish and the rest of the band really needed each other, because the music worked and sales proved that. At least in Europe.
My god. Fish left 33 years ago. Still wining about that. 😄 Marillion did great and made awesome albums over all the years with Hogarth or the first few years with Fish. But we're not living in 1984 anymore.
Greetings from italy ....Exactly like your thoughts here! I grew up with the Fish albums era, saw Marillion opening for Gary Moore in 1985 and twice during the "Clutching's tour"...there's no match! Even though my favourite Marillion song of all time is on the "Holydays in Eden" album. And Im talking about the mini suite "This Town/The Rakes Progress/100 Nights" 'cause to me it always sounded like a missing link from The ''Clutching At Straws" album! ive got a question for you anyway! Do you think - I'm quite sure you're not in the band but lets try to figure - "IF" Marillion should write nowadays the "Clutching At Straws" album, do you think it would be different? I mean, with more instrumental passages, more keys solos and more Rothery's solos?!?? Yeah, I mean room for progressive music! I think it could last even 70 minutes...and would be a masterpiece! What dou think? Thanx for your time: Luke
Totally agree! Question Pete: Do you dig any of IQ's records? Or maybe you find them too synth prog or something... I'd just love to hear you talk about their music if you like any of it. Cheers!
I was a massive Marillion fan right through Season's End and Holidays in Eden, but I agree with your take completely. The Fish era is hands down more compelling. Hogarth is an awesome vocalist and a good lyricist, but Fish was just so much more edgy and poetic. It's really a shame that they went down the path they chose, as they kind of lost a lot of us after Holidays. Not surprisingly, your thoughtful opinion was well expressed - thanks for giving Marillion some time!
Gaza is one of the best songs they’ve ever done for me, don’t get me wrong I love Clutching but they have progressed in the real sense of the word. Also Neverland live reduced me to tears.
One thing I will say is that when Fish left they didn't replace him with a soundalike, they took a new direction with a singer with a whole different style, that is admirable, obviously the 1st album featuring Hogarth was partly written with Fish and it's evident on a couple of tracks and also on Fish's 1st solo record. They really should have retired the band name IMO, but I have nothing against Hogarth he was always going to get flack for replacing Fish. The Fish era for me IS the Marillion I knew and loved, but life moves on and it would have been great to see 1 final show with the classic line up seeing as Fish is calling time on his career.
I don't think there has been a band in rock history who changed their name when a lead singer left. It didn't hurt AC/DC, Genesis, Yes, Deep Purple, Supertramp, et al.
@@nedflanders8357 That's the power of the brand not the band, that's why so many get tribute singers like Queensryche, Journey, Judas Priest did and so on. Not many bands go in a totally different musical direction except the likes of Pink Floyd, Marillion and Fleetwood Mac.
😃Queensryche did not get a TRIBUTE singer . LaTorre was an established singer in the metal community. Tate is a DOUCHEBAG😀 .Which was established in court. I am a original QR fan from the very beginning . I've seen them 8 times. I knew it was going to happen .Hell I hoped it would .It did and I'm happy about it😀😀.
@@Jermeister12 What planet are you on? Todd was nothing before he joined QR, he joined Crimson Glory and tried to sound like their original singer (Midnight) then was asked to sing for Rising West which was the remains of QR then they decided to carry the name QR on and then he went all Tate sounding. Go listen to his solo album he sounds nothing like Midnight or Tate so yeah he is a tribute singer because he copies Tate. He should just be himself, he'd get more respect because the solo album is great. I saw QR on every tour from Warning to Promised Land, went off them after that.
Thirdfish .Tooo me the Fish lp's are perfect . I listen to them back 2 back.I tried to like the Hogarth material but nocando. I've been listening to those Fish lp's since the 80's. Maybe life moves on ,but I like what I like. No apologies.
Living near Glasgow in the early eighties, we used to travel up to the record stores there as they had a much better choice,( thinking of Listen records and the one just down from the Apollo....might have been 23rd Precinct?). Anyway, long before Script came out you couldn’t fail to see all the posters in the streets for Marillion touring. This was my intro to the band, coupled with the Friday Rock show with Tommy Vance. I got M.S.H. On 12” when it was released, and hence got all the albums on the day they were released too, right up to the first two Hogarth albums. I thought when Fish left he had made the right choice as you could tell things weren’t right. I had gone to see the band from the Script tour at the Pavillion in Glasgow onwards,( saw them with Queen in Cologne, Princes Trust gig in London, last time they played Grendel at Reading, final Fish gig at Fife Aid, Belfast with Forgotten Sons, Barrowlands). Gist of this is Marillion WERE my coming of age. So maybe I was biased but even though I wanted to embrace the new beginning with Hogarth, it never captivated me. I do remember Steve Hogarth absolutely crapping it when he first played the Glasgow Barrowlands with Marillion in December ‘89. It was special because you could tell how much it meant to him, how absolutely nervous he was and when he turned to the band and said ‘they like me!!’, how relieved he was. For me it will always be Fish, but it’s a different era now and it’s a very different band.
A couple of years later but I want to give my opinion as a big Marillion Fish era band. I started listening to the albums with Steve but I was disappointed with each album since I expected to hear the magic that existed with Fish. I think Hoogarth is even a better vocalist than Fish, but he is not Fish. Marillion lost with Fish's departure, which made them special. I have to say that I don't like Fish's solo albums either, so I only have to continue enjoying that wonderful legacy that were those years together and their influence on bands like Arena or Carptree.
Hogarth far better vocalist. The hardcore fish fans must remember that hogarth was dealt a hard task following fish, and marillion wrote the majority of the material. Listen to the albums of The Europeans, and hogarths solo stuff and you will understand how it must have been difficult as his europeans material etc was far better, and he was the keyboard player, not the singer/frontman, so give the guy a break. Marillion have become more popular since Hogarth arrived.
Hogarth, Hogarth & Hogarth all the way. The best singer & frontman in prog rock today. For me, Marillion began with "Season's End" in 1989. I've had the "fish era" people try to cram his albums down my throat for decades. The more I hear Fish sing and pilfer the 1970s prog catalog as if it' his own, the more intolerable his shrieking voice and overly-verbose lyrics become. Also. it's Hogarth's wave of Marillion that been truly "progressive" for over 20 years, as every album had musical variety and brought something new & different (as opposed to Fish flipping through his old Genesis & Floyd albums trying to find the next song he can borrow heavily from without anyone noticing.) The only way that pre '89 Marillion songs are listenable is when H sings them - and even then I'd prefer he do something from his own era. Hogarth is the true voice of Marillion.
@@dvcerdeira1 Nope.Just a listener who knows the difference between a great front man and an egomaniac stomping around the stage like a 6 foot toddler shrieking "dilly dilly".
I like both singers but I prefer the Fish era. It shows the strength of that music that more than 3 decades later fans still love that guy. As far as the years since then it's all about Rothery, one of my favorite guitarists. When he brings the fire to a solo I still get goosebumps. They are all great, underrated musicians and underrated as a band. I think if Fish had stayed they wowuld have been huge but t was not to be. Fun fact is that they were the first to do crowdfunding to produce their albums.
Great video and some good points made. I personally love both eras but have to give Hogarth the win on this one. Like a few others have said, the music they've made post-Fish is not something you just listen to a few times and say hey, that's pretty good. It becomes its own entity and the melodies and atmosphere get stuck in your head. It's a beautiful thing. Both singers are fantastic, but for me, music doesn't get much better than Brave, Marbles, FEAR and Season's End. Great video.
there is no contest , literally, to a true marillion fan, the simple answer is both of them, i have followed them since 85 and still follow them now and fish solo stuff, the music that marillion create can't be matched by any band, the feelings they provoke through their style is special stuff that keeps growing and maturing over the years , and fish has never let up on writing great words , the fact that they don't do it together doesn't matter to me, its like if your parents split as a kid you get 2 christmas's :) best of both worlds
I hated Kayleigh and In Communicado etc and never bothered talking them seriously at all, until much later when SH joined. I even missed out on some of the early SH albums and have to say I changed my opinion when I rediscovered them. Brave will always be one of the great albums ever. Saw them last year in London and they were amazing. SH era for me.
In my honest opinion, Fish and Hogarth cannot be compared. Fish is more theatrical, primal, and eccentric but Hogarth is more controlled, cinematic, and anxious. Fish's music makes me feel like I'm at the theater watching the most dramatic opera I've ever seen, and I love that. But Hogarth focuses more on story building, instead of a night at the opera theater, with Hogarth you are experiencing a movie play in slow motion, opening night at the movie theater. There are characters, there is a linear storyline, interwoven intricacies in the actual production and listening of the album. (still can't get over the fact there is two endings in the album of Brave), but listening to Marbles and Brave really lets you get the grasp of Hogarths vision. I mean have you HEARD Neverland? Best song of theirs. Ocean Cloud, Invisible Man, Fantastic Place are other solid joints from that 2004 record. Both cannot be compared but if I have to say the one I prefer, I enjoy the cinematography of the Hogarth era and the world building over the Fish Era. Not to knock Fish as a performer because honestly Hogarth will never be Fish and that's okay. He will never be the performer Fish is, and probably never have (nor needs to) have that dramatic schtick that Fish upholds. I think they're two distinct mediums that should be treated as such, Hogarth over Fish but it's not by a long shot.
Hogarth for me. Marbles is probably my favourite album of all time, and I really love all of their 90s output. I'm surprised .Com isn't liked all that much with songs like A Legacy, Interior Lulu and House... I Script to be amazing but a lot of the Fish stuff really doesn't interest me. Funnily enough, Fugazi is probably my least favourite album from them.
Same. Only Fish era album I like is CAS but that is a flawless album. Brave and Marbles are too imo. Sounds that can't be made, not so great. Haven't listened to much of FEAR but what I have heard isn't all that great to me.
Fish every time. Also seeing Fish IN SCOTLAND is the best place to see him. Usually starts his tours with some prep gigs in Lothian(ish) finishes his tours in Glasgow.
I saw them in 86 at Monsters of Rock. Rush never had a support band when I saw them, I saw Rush the tour after you saw them, Hold Your Fire tour.. The gig I went to was filmed for the Show of Hands DVD. Rush were great live.
Same here, I saw them with Rush in Springfield MA ( 1986-Power Windows) and have been a huge fan ever since. Clutching at Straws is in my top 5 albums of all-time!!
Irrelevant debate, fish or Hogarth is important only to the individual and not the band, Hogarth need not worry, the band successfully tours year upon year and still produce incredible music, you don't like hogarth? Just move on, leave us to enjoy it.
I was a Fish-era guy for decades. I bought all the first 4 when released (save Script) and was in love with this band, then Fish jumped ship. Seasons End I remember at the time was decent but something was missing. It was the vocal difference yes, but it hit me just a few weeks ago that it was something else too. Not since Fugazi in '83 had a Marillion album been heard that was not a concept album, with a unifying theme. This change in vocal tactics blended with that make me steer clear of it, and that's my loss. The music, after all, could have clearly been lifted from 1985 Demos, a sound that would change in the future but still veer back to its source occasionally. Holidays In Eden, much like Season's End had them chasing some commercial glory, likely due to label pressure, but go deeper and there was a lot more to it than that, which I never did at the time. Brave, bought on release, played it once or twice, remembered it as very good, but went no farther and next thing you know it's 2021. I got cancer, so i'm home with not much to do between treatments, and I made it a point to do some deep diving on some bands I had lost touch with over the past 30 years or so, among them Yes, Rush, Weezer, and first on the list was Marillion. Boy was I missing out. Hogarth can go from the softest of voices to the ear shatteringest crescendos, sometimes in the same song. I am really chagrined at the fan's general disregard for the middle period between This Strange Engine and Marbles, as those albums contain some great tracks. Marbles was a bit of a game changer, and put the exclamation point on this era. I'm still working my way through this latter part of the catalog, but I will do my top H songs; the Fish era will have to wait. All things considered, I love both eras at this point almost equally, but the Fish era has been beat to death here: No particular order. Afraid Of Sunlight Beyond You Gaspacho This Space Quartz Go! Between You And Me Angelina Alone Again in the Lap Of Luxury The Party
Just found this video, have been watching your more recent ones. When you mentioned you liked albums and bands with a "darker" side, I began to wonder if you've listened to De Staat. They're heavier rock, sometimes industrial, sometimes infectiously poppish - some think they're derivative, but I think they're fresh. Anyway, they're songs lyrically tend toward nihilism, but not always in a bad way, if that makes sense. Anyway, just wondering. They're fairly new, within last decade or so, but you don't see their stuff in stores often. I had to order mine from a vendor in Germany. Check them out!
Since i bought their first album back in the early 80's i was stuck. SO... the FISH era is totally the best. I don't like the other stuff. I saw them in the mid 80's. What a night. 🤘😀🎇😋
I don't think we should compare Marillion with and without Fish. Both Steve and Fish are great vocalists but due to the differences in the sound of the voice and different music melody and the lyrics we have two different bands. Marillion ended a long time ago but the new band with Steve is closer to my heart even though I am 50+ and I grove up with old Marillion. If we are looking for something from old years let's listen to the solo albums of Fish, he is still a great singer and still writes perfectly lyrics that are closer to poetry than ordinary commercial music. Take care Pete and thx for you fantastic job for last few years. AG .
I am more into the Fish-era, but I also like the first four Hogarth-albums. A funny thing is that both Marillion and Fish (solo) took turns that killed a bit of their uniqueness. Marillion drifted to some kind of U2-sound which killed it for me and Fish started to sound more and more like Phil Collins at the same time. Somehow the true spirit of both Marillion and Fish get lost in the process...but still, Marillions first eight albums will still hold a great place in my musical heart. Seems fair to me. Four Fish-albums and four Hogarth-albums with Marillion, and I still wait for that special album, either from Marillion, or Fish, to ressurect that magical sound of earlier Marillion.
Clutching at Straws is my favourite Marillion these days, it grew slowly after Misplaced Childhood but is still a firm favourite. Seasons End is also really good, with some standout tracks. I liked it about as much as Vigil and still cannot say which I prefer.I have a few of the slightly more recent Marillion albums but haven't really kept an interest in them, Fish I still follow, although some of his albums were below par, for me his standout albums are Vigil, Sunsets on Empire and Raingods. Since the early days with Cliche and Family Business, the "track" which jumped out at me as a pure classic which matches or beats the rest of Fish and Marillion is Plague of Ghosts, when I want a fix of Fish, Ghosts is the the "one" I end up winding up the hifi or headphones to excessive volumes to listen to. A thought that just plopped into my mind is- Would this track have been even better with Steve Rothery on guitar or even the rest of Marillion? hmm! Probably not, if still part of Marillion I don't think Fish would have gone and used the instrumentals that became the music to hang the songs off. By the way, saw him on his last tour, his voice was the best it has been in at least 20 years, stopping smoking has made a fantastic difference, he can sing again!
Agree with all of this. Fish's late 90s period was excellent - he was really inspired and his lyrics were some of his best ever. I even liked Suits, despite it being more pop oriented.
Echoing Pete's Sentiments, for me I feel there are 3 eras of Marillion: Fish, First 4 H, and Post AoS. My opinions - Fish stuff is the best with one or 2 stinkers, First 4 with Steve is mostly very good to excellent tunes and a few lame songs, Post AoS is ok to subpar with a few brilliant moments. Since this is a rant, Post AoS Marillion just does not know how to edit. Take for instance and I know its beloved, Neverland. Its an emotional builder to the wonderful SR solo but a 3minute chop would make this so much better. Invisible Man has its solid moments but it should be a 7min song instead of 12. Just because Gaza is 17min doesnt make it an epic song.. a lot of the different sections are kludged together and rather dull but there are a few moments of glory that I would hear without the excessive crap. Thank god you can edit songs yourselves nowadays. I know I am criticizing a 'prog' band for being superfluous when that might be the credo in the genre. I still find its whether your lengthy piece is interesting the whole time or not. Close to the Edge is an 18min masterpiece without a dull moment. The next year Yes released Tales and do any of them deserved the side long treatment.. F no. That should have been another Close to the Edge with 1 18min song and 2 - 10min tunes and it would have been so much better. Marillion Post AoS era could use their own advice on long songs that Less is More.
After Hogarth joined, the band has had a screaming need for a good producer to bring in some artistic discipline. Too many of their later songs sound a bit unfinished, proceed without going somewhere, or lack proper editing. I get frustrated listening to a song that could have been so much more with proper editing and better artistic direction.
Marbles is superb but gotta disagree on nothing good since as F.E.A.R. is awesome..took me about 10 listens to get into it..The Leavers is one of their best.
@@keithshapland903 I need to have a better listen to FEAR as I've given it a couple of quick listens and written it off as average. Will definitely give it another go today
@@irena7777777 Good to hear you are giving it another go as I found it too much to listen to on first few spins. I found it much better once I had the vinyl as it split up into four sides rather than one long play through. So may epic moments during it all. Saw the tour and it was amazing, especially The Leavers.
I was a fish fan 100%...and put marillion aside for 30 yrs after h stepped in...!!!!!! Then i heard songs like fantastic place and this train is my life and i was literally blown away. Started picking up seasons end and ended up with an hour before its dark. I totally changed my mind and opinion and consider them 2 seperate bands and now i don't know which is the best. Hogarth is a genius like fish . Happy to have all their albums and now i enjoy them all.
"Clutching at Straws" was the first album in a whole new era for Marillion in terms of sound, even though producer was the same that worked on "Misplaced Childhood" (Chris Kimsey). Marillion's music has been evolving from "Fugazy" onward. I started paying attention to Marillion when I first listened to the "Real to Reel" versión of Forgotten Sons and love most of the songs on the first 4 albums. But I also love most of the songs in their whole catalog. When H replaced Fish a new instrumentalist came in, and his approach to his second instrument (being the voice his first), is very different compared to the way Mark Kelly plays the keys. Further evolution of Marillion's sound is heavily influenced by the presence of 2 keyboardists and arrangers. I love the road Marillion has taken but, of course, I understand perfectly that for other the route was not the one they like better. Every now and then I think that would like to hear new music more guitar-oriented but it is okay for me the way it is because I really like (very much), their compositions based on multi-layered sound, mainly based on keyboards, because I perfectly hear Rothery's guitar, Pete's bass guitar and Ian's drumming. Regarding H, voice, lyrics, and performance are just as marvelous as I expect from Marillion.
Different to most people it seems, but I love the Fish era .... and I also love the Hogarth era. The Marbles album is always in my Top 5 albums by any band ever. The rest of my Top 5 changes , but Marbles is always in there. Give Marbles more time Pete! And Gaza from the Sounds cd ....wow! Great rant :)
Maybe it’s an age thing , my first gig was Manchester Apollo ‘ Marillion’ around 1984. Fish was and still is my hero, I wish he’d never left and I am growing to like H but those exciting Script days will always be so special to me.
Love them both, but Hogarth is without a doubt my favorite. He has the better voice. Both are pretty damn good lyricists. Fish was so poetic and Hogarth had huge shoes to fill. He has done a brilliant job.
Like them both, but the Fish era material resonates with me most as I bought Script sole;y based on the artwork alone when I saw it in Sam Goody in 11th grade (may have read a Kerrang Interview possibly) those first 4 albums bring back sooo many wonderful memories for me ! All are classics to my ears ! I like some of the early Hogarth material but it's not stuff I reach for often (Brave and Afriaf are my faves !)
Firstly, I discovered your channel during lock-down and you've rejuvenated my interest in many bands that I listened to at college in '80's...thank you. Your 80's best album series is virtually identical to mine! As you say, it's always about the gut feeling, so there's no right or wrong here, but just as people have opinions about post Moody Whitesnake or post Blackmore Purple ( I know you do) I have the same about Marillion. I saw them in the Fish era ( favorite gig was Monsters of Rock in 1985) and many times since. I love both era's equally; okay the lyricist has changed but the same four are creating the music in both incarnations. Fugazi and Clutching at Straws I hold in the same esteem as Marbles, Afraid of Sunlight and Sounds that Can't be Made.
I am a huge fan of Fish era Marillion. Though I did see the Hogarth lineup 3 times at the Ritz in NYC. Dream Theater opened one of those nights. I also saw Marillion at the Chance in Poughkeepsie in 1987. Met Fish after soundcheck. Cool guy.
Sorry I am a bit late to the show here, but I only recently started following this page and have been really enjoying the recent posts, but I am just now starting to go back to view some of the earlier posts. That being said, I really enjoyed watching your take on the two eras of Marillion just now and wanted, albeit a bit late, to contribute my thoughts. I started listening to Marillion in 1994, beginning my journey with "Clutching at Straws". I was immediately hooked and had to pick up the previous CDs the very first chance I had. I spent the next few months really sinking my teeth into the Fish-era releases and finding something interesting and new to love with each listen. With "Brave" having been the recent release at the time I started listening to them, I had decided to take a chance on it, and I have to say that while I didn't hate it, I was not at all blown away at the time. However, when "Afraid of Sunlight" was released the following year, I could not stop listening to it. For some reason, however, it did not trigger me to go back and pick up the first two H-era releases. When "This Strange Engine" came out a couple of years later, I remembered being floored by the first half of the album, but it had fallen kind of short for me after that. Once "Radiation" was released, I just decided to give up on them. For about the next decade, I had a friend try to convince me to give it another shot, especially when "Marbles" was released, but I was kind of stubborn about it. Fast forward about 15 years, and out comes "Sounds that Can't Be Made". I remember simply being curious and checking out the track listing, observing the abundance of lengthy tracks, thinking maybe this could be interesting, and finally deciding it was worth a shot. After listening from beginning to end, I finally got it. It just hit me out of nowhere; whether it is Fish or Hogarth, this is Marillion. Suddenly, I am collecting everything I have missed out on for the past however many years, including "Seasons End" and "Holidays in Eden", and asking myself how the hell I allowed myself to miss out on this for so many years, not to mention "Brave" has since become one of my top three Marillion albums of all time. Once "FEAR" dropped, I finally decided for the first time that I was going to see them live, come hell or high water, and it was honestly one of the most magical concert experiences of my life. If you were to ask me 20+ years ago if I preferred Fish or Hogarth, I would have gone with Fish before you even finished the question. If you were to ask me today if I prefer Fish or Hogarth, my answer is, without the slightest hesitation...YES!!!!
The parallels between Genesis with/without Gabriel and Marillion with/without Fish I find amazing. A few good albums from each after the change, then both dropped the prog label entirely.
Don't know how big they were in the US but in Europe they were massive during the 80's After Fish left they sank very quickly though there were still some great Hogart-songs. So I can agree with your rant
I love both eras and I listen to both. I do agree with you on one thing that indeed Marillion have changed their style of músic however It is still good. Fish's solo outputs have been good too so basically we are getting the best of both worlds.
This is how it is for me. I like every Fish/Marillion album. Not every Hogarth/Marillion album. Hogarth is the better singer but there is a magic missing, probably lyrics and character. Let's face it, Fish is a character and brings a lot to a band. Though I do like "Season's End" - which is the perfect end.
Fish era for me. Always found the Hogarth albums very dull. I was only a big fan of the band for a short time. I started to lose interest after Misplaced Childhood but I persevered and bought all the albums up to and including Brave. I still think their best album is Script for a Jesters tear. Despite the unfair comparisons to Genesis and Peter Hammill in the early days, they were actually quite unique, and were more an inspiration to other 'neo prog' bands, than they were inspired by the classic prog bands. IMO. After Fugazi they became quite formulaic and predictable. The Hogarth albums are completely different, but I just find them boring and depressing.
A nice balanced rant - I was ready to send you horses heads... :) I see them as 2 different bands, and like them for different things. All 4 of those early albums will always hold a special place in my heart, yet I still think Brave and Marbles are some of the best stuff they've done. It's a shame that they never put on a special tour - can you imagine an hour of Fish solo stuff, an hour of Hogarth era, and then an hour of original Marillion? That would have been awesome. 06:07 - if you listen to the remastered Clutching second disk, you can hear some tunes that ended up on Seasons End and some lyrics that went into Vigil and Internal Exile (Beaujolais Day, Story From A Thin Wall, Shadows On The Barley, Sunset Hill, Tic Tac Toe, Voice In The Crowd, Exile On Princes Street) - you'll find them all on YT. One thing that needs to be said: the Fish era albums artwork were the best - the jester was the 6th member of the band...
opinions on steve rotherey band? personal opinion, i think he is trying to go back to the early years and to compound this using the vocalist from stillmarillion for touring purposes, who couldnt sound less like fish if he tried
I prefer the Fish era, but I do enjoy Sounds That Can't Be Made, especially the first and last tracks. Garza has some heavy bits, and Sky Above The Rain is so emotional. The latter song reminds me of when my mom and step-dad got divorced. I prefer the Fish era for the theatrics.
Marillion in the 80's with Fish filled a huge void for me. All my favorite prog bands had either broken up or had radically changed direction. So, needless to say I prefer Fish. I liked Internal Exile, his 2nd (I think) solo record. I moved onto other musical forms after that. Hogarth? Well, Seasons End was a pleasant surprise. A really good record. But, after Holidays in Eden I lost interest in them. I've checked out several Marillion/Hogarth albums since. Some good tunes, all in all. Alas, not really my cup of tea these days.
Fish was a Peter Gabriel copycat, but Marillion was more interesting with him at the helm. Steve Hogarth is a much better singer, not even close, but Marillion became a dull boring band after Fish left.
Amazing review rant nearly spot on to what i was thinking love marillion fish marillion 8.5 out of ten hoggarth 5 Grendel anyone 3 boats down from the candy classics
Good rant Pete. Totally agree. Fish was more to Marillion than just being the singer. I'd say he is a poet like Jim Morrison or Bob Dylan.
I agree 100% totally.they shoud have changed there name.as far as am concerned. FISH is 1 in a marillion be good ìt there was 1 last concert with both singers doing there own sets JST FISH N MARILLION WUD DO..I DO LOVE SEASONS END THO🎵.🎻LONG LIVE THE JESTER🎻🎶
What claptrap! Hogarthnis just as much a poet and intelligent writer. I like both but Marillion gained a singer rather than lost a leader.
@@BehonestBestitchedup Marillion would never have made it if it was not for Fish.... therefore there would never have been a Marillion/Hogarth connection!!!!
@@WisdomKeeper11 I agree.Soon as Fish left Marillion i stopped listening to them..I don't like Steve Hogarth
Fish+Marillion= Great! just love Fish on vocals! Heard Fish's 2 solo Albums from 1990 debut and the Second Album from 1991. Downloaded the two first albums from Spotify! But just now I have downloaded the rest of his solo Albums! It's gonna be exciting listening! Ps I to like the early Marillion albums from 1983 to 1988. Greetings from Sweden
A Fish man here hands down. Market Square Heroes 12'' with Grendel, Script and Fugazi. Spent many a fine evening watching Marillion in my teens. One of my favourite bands.
Fish for me cause I grew up with those albums.
Same for me. All those first 4 studio & live album are truly great. Steve Hogarth's period means nothing to me...
The Fish years for me!! Btw, how underrated is Steve Rothery on guitar
There's probably over a dozen amazing Marillion guitar solos. Rothery is up there with Gilmout/Hackett/ Latimer for me. Possibly even better
The guy's a genius... absolutely fantastic guitarist.
Marillion without Fish is like fish without chips.
100% agree with you on this one Pete, absolutely love the Fish era albums especially Fugazi but the Hogarth era ones do nothing for me at all.If ever a band should have changed their name when they changed singers it’s Marillion in my opinion.
I had a conversation with my uncle about this a couple of weeks ago. I never even gave it a thought before, but I totally agree.
In the minority here, but Hogarth.
I've been a fan since '85 and it took me a while to warm to Hogarth, but the overall depth and scope of the Hogarth era gives it the edge. Live, they are simply unmatched. A Marillion show is as close to a spiritual experience you can get from a rock band. The Hogarth era albums don't grab you by the throat like the firecracker Fish era ones do. They slowly seep into your mental space after repeated listenings. You may be bored at first, but then you find your mind playing the songs when you aren't even thinking about it. They call you back.
They certainly have some weak material over that time, but I know of no other band in the past 30 years that has maintained their fan base without turning into a nostalgia act. They never just phone an album or a show in. Hogarth for me.
i agree 100%
Nah.
You saved me having to type that. I feel the same
Agree about the concert experience. No current band can even come close. Disagree on many of Hogarth's artistic decisions. Marillion were better with Fish in.
My best song by hogarth is NO ONE CAN AMAZING SONG.LOVE IT .COVER MY EYES NOT TO BAD EITHER..F I S H I S T H E M A N,THE LEGEND 🎻🎵🎻🎤🕵
Fish hands down. Not even close. I'll grant that Hogarth has a stronger voice, but the music was so much better in the Fish era. The stuff with H is decent, but the Fish stuff is amazing.
Hogarth has a stronger voice? Can you give me some examples? I haven't heard many Marillion albums with him. I always found his voice rather weak and thin.
@@jans2887 I think he has more range. Cover My Eyes, Map of The World, Waiting to Happen, Afraid Of Sunlight, The Great Escape...there are probably some better examples in their later work, I just found most of it boring. Fish has kind of a one dimensional voice, but it works for me. To me the real Marillion is the Fish era.
@@jans2887 Hello, I too am not a big fan of H's era. But on that live album from the "Less is More" tour, recorded in London (Cadogan, I guess), Hogarth proves how great a singer he is. The man really does whatever he wants with his voice. Give it a try.
I lost interest after Brave, seasons end. Nothing beats Fish, Man, all 4 albums were simply pieces of art.
Totally agree with you, Pete.
The first four records are golden.
Fish is the missing ingredient, for me.
Thanks for that rant....
🎶🤘🍺✌️
Same
Try listening instead of lamenting a guy who can’t sing
Love Fish, Love Steve, but it's all about Rothery! Great rant Pete.
Very thoughtful and respectful review. I 100% agree with you. I was introduced to Marillion at their beginnings. Although I gave Hogarth a shot, my allegiance remained/remains with Uncle Fish.
Marillion was one of the best pure progressive rock bands with "fish"
Never understood the Fish vs Hogarth mentality. They are two different bands. Both Fish and Hogarth are great lyricists, vocalists, frontmen,....Hell, they are both extremely Charismatic. They are both artists, poets. But they are very, very different. Appreciate both for their different talents. All 4 Fish albums are masterpieces. They are all killer, no filler. But so are Brave, Afraid of sunlight, Sounds that cant be made, Marbles, ...hell, I even love this strange engine. They are just different bands. Enjoy both eras for what they are.
I think both peaked creatively in the decade from 1987 to 1997. My favourite albums by Marillion/Fish nearly all fall within that period.
It actually became kinda cool that the two bands sounded different.
Afraid of Sunlight sounds nothing like Sunsets on Empire, but both are brilliant in their own way.
If anything Marillion became more "progressive" after Fish departed because they were less reliant on the template of previous bands of that genre. I still enjoy the early albums as a nostalgia trip, they still have an emotional pull, but the Hogarth era remains relevant to me. Fish's solo career I abandoned after his first album and tour. I think the Hogarth era suffers in comparison just because the amount of albums now available dissipates the impact of some of the best material, but the best songs easily stand up against anything recorded by the earlier iteration of the band. Brave is my go-to Marillion album.
Very well put...I am listening to Brave right now. These Fish fans just dismiss the later stuff without really trying to understand it. F.E.A.R is bloody amazing but it took me 10 listens to really appreciate how brilliant it it really is.
I agree with you completely. The best of the Hogarth era certainly stands up to the earlier era in quality.
Love both eras, why choose just one? If you haven't given the time to Season's End, Brave, Fear and especially Marbles (my fave H era album), then you are really missing out. The new album, An Hour Before it's Dark, has been a nice surprise as well. Pick it up and support this wonderful band!
I first saw Marillion at Rock City in Nottingham in 1983. I friend I was living with in Derby at the time asked me if i wanted to come along. I wasnt sure as was more into VH etc at the time. Still remember how blown away I was and it changed the course of my music taste for ever. Fish era unquestionably the best. Those lyrics. Just no contest...
I have that concert on audio tape
I prefer the Steve Rothery era myself
Luckily that's been every album...
Rothery is amazing
Nice
To be honest I am pretty tired of those Fish-Marillion to Hogarth-Marillion constant comparisons. Why? Because it's almost like two different bands for me (apples and oranges). First of all, Fish has completely different style of singing than Hogarth, and secondly the music also significantly changed since Hogarth joined the band (apart from the fact they recycled unused musical ideas from "Clutching at straws" on "Seasons End"). Hogarth was not only singing, and he was not merely a replacement - he has also created music and he brought his own musical style and flavour to the table from the very beginning of his adventure with Marillion (though I am aware not everyone liked it). As far as lyrics are concerned, I could agree that Hogarth may be indeed a little less "poetic" than Fish, although I think H is a very good writer and he touches on a very important issues in his lyrics. And surely he has matured a lot as a writer since "Seasons End". From "Brave" onwards, he started to become more and more competent as a lyricist. Depending on the mood, I would pick something from Fish, or something from H's era of the band. But I must admit that however I love both Marillions equally, I am personally somehow more emotionally attached to H's voice than to Fish's voice. And these days, when it comes to live performances, Fish has unfortunately pretty much lost his voice, while Hogarth is still damn strong and solid as a singer live.
Favourite Fish-era album: Clutching at straws
Favourite Hogarth-era album: Brave/Afraid of sunlight
Greetings to all Marillion(s) fans.
Stumbled across this video. I wholeheartedly endorse this comment, which saved me from typing much the same thing.
I love Fish-era Marillion, but at most that band had one more album in it and it would have burned out. By the mid-nineties Fish's voice had already changed and he was writing different material - doubt he could have sung most of his back catalogue even then. Yet I think his solo albums in that period (Vigil, Suits and Sunsets) were superb. Similarly, Hogarth gave the band an extra 25 great years - while I'm not as attached to the material after Brave, each version of the band had definite creative high points, and H was a phenomenal live singer.
On reflection, I wish they had changed the band name before Season's End so we wouldn't need to have these debates. As much as Marillion's '83 to '88 period is timeless (and I think Clutching at Straws may be the best album from either version) I'd say the split was on balance good for both artists, as we got some great material that was 'true' to both camps. If they'd forcibly stayed together a few years longer, it may have ended even more horribly and we'd have ended up with neither legacy.
Couldn't agree more
Also couldn’t agree more.. 👍
I bought the FEAR CD and thought it was quite good and saw the band on their American tour. A couple days later, I got an email from the band saying they were going to play the Royal Albert Hall for the first time. I had to be there and amazingly got tickets on the phone. My girl and I saved up for a year to make a one week vacation to London, with the Marillion show right on the middle.Great show and I met people from all over the world (literally). Perfect vacation.
My Marillion collection ends at Seasons End. Totally agree here with you. The Fish years were just magic. That Genesis like quirkyness left with Fish and remained with him.
Too bad because there is much better Hogarth stuff after Season's End, which is rather lame.
Mine ends at Clutching at Straws!
You sum up perfectly the angst and dilemma of all haerdcore Marillion fans. I commend you for that.
I liked Marillion from the very start. I saw the very first concert with Steve R in 1989 and carried on liking them until This Strange Engine. Then, I never bought or even listened to an album thereafter. I've just looked up the discography and there's 10 ish album after that! Can someone suggest which one of those to try out!
FISH!!!! I tried the Hogarth stuff, but it was never the same. The emotion of Fish and his lyrics just sticks to me. With Hogarth, it is a whole different band. I stoped buying Marillion stuff after the second Hogarth album. But sadly, Fish and the rest of the band really needed each other, because the music worked and sales proved that. At least in Europe.
My god. Fish left 33 years ago. Still wining about that. 😄
Marillion did great and made awesome albums over all the years with Hogarth or the first few years with Fish. But we're not living in 1984 anymore.
Greetings from italy ....Exactly like your thoughts here! I grew up with the Fish albums era, saw Marillion opening for Gary Moore in 1985 and twice during the "Clutching's tour"...there's no match! Even though my favourite Marillion song of all time is on the "Holydays in Eden" album. And Im talking about the mini suite "This Town/The Rakes Progress/100 Nights" 'cause to me it always sounded like a missing link from The ''Clutching At Straws" album! ive got a question for you anyway! Do you think - I'm quite sure you're not in the band but lets try to figure - "IF" Marillion should write nowadays the "Clutching At Straws" album, do you think it would be different? I mean, with more instrumental passages, more keys solos and more Rothery's solos?!?? Yeah, I mean room for progressive music! I think it could last even 70 minutes...and would be a masterpiece! What dou think?
Thanx for your time:
Luke
Totally agree!
Question Pete: Do you dig any of IQ's records? Or maybe you find them too synth prog or something... I'd just love to hear you talk about their music if you like any of it. Cheers!
Cau Silvestrini I also hope he will do a IQ show.
top ten Fish solo albums?
H in my humble opinion, period. But I also love Fish.
The best thing that happened to Marillion was Fish leaving. Needless to say Pete stays stuck in the 80's. Oh well.
I was a massive Marillion fan right through Season's End and Holidays in Eden, but I agree with your take completely. The Fish era is hands down more compelling. Hogarth is an awesome vocalist and a good lyricist, but Fish was just so much more edgy and poetic. It's really a shame that they went down the path they chose, as they kind of lost a lot of us after Holidays. Not surprisingly, your thoughtful opinion was well expressed - thanks for giving Marillion some time!
Gaza is one of the best songs they’ve ever done for me, don’t get me wrong I love Clutching but they have progressed in the real sense of the word. Also Neverland live reduced me to tears.
I'm fortunate enough to enjoy both. I find h speaks to me and can bring a tear to my eye. I love marbles.
One thing I will say is that when Fish left they didn't replace him with a soundalike, they took a new direction with a singer with a whole different style, that is admirable, obviously the 1st album featuring Hogarth was partly written with Fish and it's evident on a couple of tracks and also on Fish's 1st solo record.
They really should have retired the band name IMO, but I have nothing against Hogarth he was always going to get flack for replacing Fish.
The Fish era for me IS the Marillion I knew and loved, but life moves on and it would have been great to see 1 final show with the classic line up seeing as Fish is calling time on his career.
I don't think there has been a band in rock history who changed their name when a lead singer left. It didn't hurt AC/DC, Genesis, Yes, Deep Purple, Supertramp, et al.
@@nedflanders8357 That's the power of the brand not the band, that's why so many get tribute singers like Queensryche, Journey, Judas Priest did and so on. Not many bands go in a totally different musical direction except the likes of Pink Floyd, Marillion and Fleetwood Mac.
😃Queensryche did not get a TRIBUTE singer .
LaTorre was an established singer in the metal community.
Tate is a DOUCHEBAG😀 .Which was established in court.
I am a original QR fan from the very beginning . I've seen them 8 times. I knew it was going to happen .Hell I hoped it would .It did and I'm happy about it😀😀.
@@Jermeister12 What planet are you on? Todd was nothing before he joined QR, he joined Crimson Glory and tried to sound like their original singer (Midnight) then was asked to sing for Rising West which was the remains of QR then they decided to carry the name QR on and then he went all Tate sounding. Go listen to his solo album he sounds nothing like Midnight or Tate so yeah he is a tribute singer because he copies Tate. He should just be himself, he'd get more respect because the solo album is great. I saw QR on every tour from Warning to Promised Land, went off them after that.
Thirdfish .Tooo me the Fish lp's are perfect .
I listen to them back 2 back.I tried to like the Hogarth material but nocando.
I've been listening to those Fish lp's since the 80's.
Maybe life moves on ,but I like what I like.
No apologies.
Living near Glasgow in the early eighties, we used to travel up to the record stores there as they had a much better choice,( thinking of Listen records and the one just down from the Apollo....might have been 23rd Precinct?). Anyway, long before Script came out you couldn’t fail to see all the posters in the streets for Marillion touring. This was my intro to the band, coupled with the Friday Rock show with Tommy Vance. I got M.S.H. On 12” when it was released, and hence got all the albums on the day they were released too, right up to the first two Hogarth albums. I thought when Fish left he had made the right choice as you could tell things weren’t right. I had gone to see the band from the Script tour at the Pavillion in Glasgow onwards,( saw them with Queen in Cologne, Princes Trust gig in London, last time they played Grendel at Reading, final Fish gig at Fife Aid, Belfast with Forgotten Sons, Barrowlands). Gist of this is Marillion WERE my coming of age. So maybe I was biased but even though I wanted to embrace the new beginning with Hogarth, it never captivated me. I do remember Steve Hogarth absolutely crapping it when he first played the Glasgow Barrowlands with Marillion in December ‘89. It was special because you could tell how much it meant to him, how absolutely nervous he was and when he turned to the band and said ‘they like me!!’, how relieved he was. For me it will always be Fish, but it’s a different era now and it’s a very different band.
A couple of years later but I want to give my opinion as a big Marillion Fish era band. I started listening to the albums with Steve but I was disappointed with each album since I expected to hear the magic that existed with Fish. I think Hoogarth is even a better vocalist than Fish, but he is not Fish. Marillion lost with Fish's departure, which made them special. I have to say that I don't like Fish's solo albums either, so I only have to continue enjoying that wonderful legacy that were those years together and their influence on bands like Arena or Carptree.
Completely agree. After Afraid of Sunlight they went too commercial for me. Saw their very first uk tour. Absolutely brilliant.
Hogarth far better vocalist. The hardcore fish fans must remember that hogarth was dealt a hard task following fish, and marillion wrote the majority of the material. Listen to the albums of The Europeans, and hogarths solo stuff and you will understand how it must have been difficult as his europeans material etc was far better, and he was the keyboard player, not the singer/frontman, so give the guy a break. Marillion have become more popular since Hogarth arrived.
Hogarth, Hogarth & Hogarth all the way. The best singer & frontman in prog rock today. For me, Marillion began with "Season's End" in 1989. I've had the "fish era" people try to cram his albums down my throat for decades. The more I hear Fish sing and pilfer the 1970s prog catalog as if it' his own, the more intolerable his shrieking voice and overly-verbose lyrics become. Also. it's Hogarth's wave of Marillion that been truly "progressive" for over 20 years, as every album had musical variety and brought something new & different (as opposed to Fish flipping through his old Genesis & Floyd albums trying to find the next song he can borrow heavily from without anyone noticing.) The only way that pre '89 Marillion songs are listenable is when H sings them - and even then I'd prefer he do something from his own era. Hogarth is the true voice of Marillion.
Hogarth is this You?😂
@@dvcerdeira1 Nope.Just a listener who knows the difference between a great front man and an egomaniac stomping around the stage like a 6 foot toddler shrieking "dilly dilly".
I like both singers but I prefer the Fish era. It shows the strength of that music that more than 3 decades later fans still love that guy. As far as the years since then it's all about Rothery, one of my favorite guitarists. When he brings the fire to a solo I still get goosebumps. They are all great, underrated musicians and underrated as a band. I think if Fish had stayed they wowuld have been huge but t was not to be. Fun fact is that they were the first to do crowdfunding to produce their albums.
Great video and some good points made. I personally love both eras but have to give Hogarth the win on this one. Like a few others have said, the music they've made post-Fish is not something you just listen to a few times and say hey, that's pretty good. It becomes its own entity and the melodies and atmosphere get stuck in your head. It's a beautiful thing. Both singers are fantastic, but for me, music doesn't get much better than Brave, Marbles, FEAR and Season's End. Great video.
Hogarth for me ..just listen to last album or brave..fish was brilliant too
there is no contest , literally, to a true marillion fan, the simple answer is both of them, i have followed them since 85 and still follow them now and fish solo stuff, the music that marillion create can't be matched by any band, the feelings they provoke through their style is special stuff that keeps growing and maturing over the years , and fish has never let up on writing great words , the fact that they don't do it together doesn't matter to me, its like if your parents split as a kid you get 2 christmas's :) best of both worlds
I hated Kayleigh and In Communicado etc and never bothered talking them seriously at all, until much later when SH joined. I even missed out on some of the early SH albums and have to say I changed my opinion when I rediscovered them. Brave will always be one of the great albums ever.
Saw them last year in London and they were amazing. SH era for me.
In my honest opinion, Fish and Hogarth cannot be compared. Fish is more theatrical, primal, and eccentric but Hogarth is more controlled, cinematic, and anxious. Fish's music makes me feel like I'm at the theater watching the most dramatic opera I've ever seen, and I love that. But Hogarth focuses more on story building, instead of a night at the opera theater, with Hogarth you are experiencing a movie play in slow motion, opening night at the movie theater. There are characters, there is a linear storyline, interwoven intricacies in the actual production and listening of the album. (still can't get over the fact there is two endings in the album of Brave), but listening to Marbles and Brave really lets you get the grasp of Hogarths vision. I mean have you HEARD Neverland? Best song of theirs. Ocean Cloud, Invisible Man, Fantastic Place are other solid joints from that 2004 record.
Both cannot be compared but if I have to say the one I prefer, I enjoy the cinematography of the Hogarth era and the world building over the Fish Era. Not to knock Fish as a performer because honestly Hogarth will never be Fish and that's okay. He will never be the performer Fish is, and probably never have (nor needs to) have that dramatic schtick that Fish upholds. I think they're two distinct mediums that should be treated as such, Hogarth over Fish but it's not by a long shot.
Hogarth for me. Marbles is probably my favourite album of all time, and I really love all of their 90s output. I'm surprised .Com isn't liked all that much with songs like A Legacy, Interior Lulu and House... I Script to be amazing but a lot of the Fish stuff really doesn't interest me. Funnily enough, Fugazi is probably my least favourite album from them.
I'm right with you....Marbles and .Com are 2 of my Hogarth era favorites too.
Same. Only Fish era album I like is CAS but that is a flawless album. Brave and Marbles are too imo. Sounds that can't be made, not so great. Haven't listened to much of FEAR but what I have heard isn't all that great to me.
The 4 albums that marillion did with FISH have so much depth. Fir me, it is no contest. Fish era.
I like both periods. I was hooked up on the Fish era albums but I do enjoy Hogarth era, particularly Brave and Marbles.
Fish every time. Also seeing Fish IN SCOTLAND is the best place to see him. Usually starts his tours with some prep gigs in Lothian(ish) finishes his tours in Glasgow.
Fish gave Marillion songs more edge. Hogarth is more radio friendly.
Saw them opening up for Rush on the Power Windows tour in 1986 with Fish on vocals, they were really good.
I saw them in 86 at Monsters of Rock. Rush never had a support band when I saw them, I saw Rush the tour after you saw them, Hold Your Fire tour.. The gig I went to was filmed for the Show of Hands DVD. Rush were great live.
Same here, I saw them with Rush in Springfield MA ( 1986-Power Windows) and have been a huge fan ever since. Clutching at Straws is in my top 5 albums of all-time!!
Irrelevant debate, fish or Hogarth is important only to the individual and not the band, Hogarth need not worry, the band successfully tours year upon year and still produce incredible music, you don't like hogarth? Just move on, leave us to enjoy it.
Agreed!
They should have changed their group name when Fish left.
Never, is all !
A script for a Jesters Tear is the only Marillion album I love with every bit of my heart!
I was a Fish-era guy for decades. I bought all the first 4 when released (save Script) and was in love with this band, then Fish jumped ship. Seasons End I remember at the time was decent but something was missing. It was the vocal difference yes, but it hit me just a few weeks ago that it was something else too. Not since Fugazi in '83 had a Marillion album been heard that was not a concept album, with a unifying theme. This change in vocal tactics blended with that make me steer clear of it, and that's my loss. The music, after all, could have clearly been lifted from 1985 Demos, a sound that would change in the future but still veer back to its source occasionally. Holidays In Eden, much like Season's End had them chasing some commercial glory, likely due to label pressure, but go deeper and there was a lot more to it than that, which I never did at the time. Brave, bought on release, played it once or twice, remembered it as very good, but went no farther and next thing you know it's 2021.
I got cancer, so i'm home with not much to do between treatments, and I made it a point to do some deep diving on some bands I had lost touch with over the past 30 years or so, among them Yes, Rush, Weezer, and first on the list was Marillion. Boy was I missing out. Hogarth can go from the softest of voices to the ear shatteringest crescendos, sometimes in the same song. I am really chagrined at the fan's general disregard for the middle period between This Strange Engine and Marbles, as those albums contain some great tracks. Marbles was a bit of a game changer, and put the exclamation point on this era. I'm still working my way through this latter part of the catalog, but I will do my top H songs; the Fish era will have to wait. All things considered, I love both eras at this point almost equally, but the Fish era has been beat to death here:
No particular order.
Afraid Of Sunlight
Beyond You
Gaspacho
This Space
Quartz
Go!
Between You And Me
Angelina
Alone Again in the Lap Of Luxury
The Party
PS. The Fish solo albums are on that to-do list too.
Hogarth for me, please. "The Space"
Just found this video, have been watching your more recent ones. When you mentioned you liked albums and bands with a "darker" side, I began to wonder if you've listened to De Staat. They're heavier rock, sometimes industrial, sometimes infectiously poppish - some think they're derivative, but I think they're fresh. Anyway, they're songs lyrically tend toward nihilism, but not always in a bad way, if that makes sense. Anyway, just wondering. They're fairly new, within last decade or so, but you don't see their stuff in stores often. I had to order mine from a vendor in Germany. Check them out!
Agree with all of this. The music on Brave is awesome though.
My favourite album.
No question: FISH!
Thank you Pete. Love your shows. I also think that Marrillion with fish was the best, and with hogarth only occasionally
Since i bought their first album back in the early 80's i was stuck. SO... the FISH era is totally the best. I don't like the other stuff. I saw them in the mid 80's. What a night. 🤘😀🎇😋
Can you do one on Asia - Wetton vs Payne
Thanks
Fish 100% his new album is amazing and marillion wouldn’t be marillion without derek aka fish
I don't think we should compare Marillion with and without Fish. Both Steve and Fish are great vocalists but due to the differences in the sound of the voice and different music melody and the lyrics we have two different bands. Marillion ended a long time ago but the new band with Steve is closer to my heart even though I am 50+ and I grove up with old Marillion. If we are looking for something from old years let's listen to the solo albums of Fish, he is still a great singer and still writes perfectly lyrics that are closer to poetry than ordinary commercial music. Take care Pete and thx for you fantastic job for last few years. AG .
Agree, but Afraid of Sunlight is a great lp
I am more into the Fish-era, but I also like the first four Hogarth-albums. A funny thing is that both Marillion and Fish (solo) took turns that killed a bit of their uniqueness. Marillion drifted to some kind of U2-sound which killed it for me and Fish started to sound more and more like Phil Collins at the same time. Somehow the true spirit of both Marillion and Fish get lost in the process...but still, Marillions first eight albums will still hold a great place in my musical heart. Seems fair to me. Four Fish-albums and four Hogarth-albums with Marillion, and I still wait for that special album, either from Marillion, or Fish, to ressurect that magical sound of earlier Marillion.
Clutching at Straws is my favourite Marillion these days, it grew slowly after Misplaced Childhood but is still a firm favourite. Seasons End is also really good, with some standout tracks. I liked it about as much as Vigil and still cannot say which I prefer.I have a few of the slightly more recent Marillion albums but haven't really kept an interest in them, Fish I still follow, although some of his albums were below par, for me his standout albums are Vigil, Sunsets on Empire and Raingods. Since the early days with Cliche and Family Business, the "track" which jumped out at me as a pure classic which matches or beats the rest of Fish and Marillion is Plague of Ghosts, when I want a fix of Fish, Ghosts is the the "one" I end up winding up the hifi or headphones to excessive volumes to listen to. A thought that just plopped into my mind is- Would this track have been even better with Steve Rothery on guitar or even the rest of Marillion? hmm! Probably not, if still part of Marillion I don't think Fish would have gone and used the instrumentals that became the music to hang the songs off.
By the way, saw him on his last tour, his voice was the best it has been in at least 20 years, stopping smoking has made a fantastic difference, he can sing again!
Agree with all of this. Fish's late 90s period was excellent - he was really inspired and his lyrics were some of his best ever.
I even liked Suits, despite it being more pop oriented.
I just love both eras, and I have a Marillion’s tattoo, I traveled to 3 countries just to see them alive, great band, amazing musicians, cool lyrics
Echoing Pete's Sentiments, for me I feel there are 3 eras of Marillion: Fish, First 4 H, and Post AoS. My opinions - Fish stuff is the best with one or 2 stinkers, First 4 with Steve is mostly very good to excellent tunes and a few lame songs, Post AoS is ok to subpar with a few brilliant moments.
Since this is a rant, Post AoS Marillion just does not know how to edit. Take for instance and I know its beloved, Neverland. Its an emotional builder to the wonderful SR solo but a 3minute chop would make this so much better. Invisible Man has its solid moments but it should be a 7min song instead of 12. Just because Gaza is 17min doesnt make it an epic song.. a lot of the different sections are kludged together and rather dull but there are a few moments of glory that I would hear without the excessive crap. Thank god you can edit songs yourselves nowadays.
I know I am criticizing a 'prog' band for being superfluous when that might be the credo in the genre. I still find its whether your lengthy piece is interesting the whole time or not. Close to the Edge is an 18min masterpiece without a dull moment. The next year Yes released Tales and do any of them deserved the side long treatment.. F no. That should have been another Close to the Edge with 1 18min song and 2 - 10min tunes and it would have been so much better. Marillion Post AoS era could use their own advice on long songs that Less is More.
After Hogarth joined, the band has had a screaming need for a good producer to bring in some artistic discipline. Too many of their later songs sound a bit unfinished, proceed without going somewhere, or lack proper editing. I get frustrated listening to a song that could have been so much more with proper editing and better artistic direction.
Marbles has some of their finest tracks - Invisible Man, Neverland and Ocean Cloud. They haven't done anything as good since.
Saw them play in Chicago when they had just released this album. Great concert .
Marbles is up there with Clutching and Brave
Marbles is superb but gotta disagree on nothing good since as F.E.A.R. is awesome..took me about 10 listens to get into it..The Leavers is one of their best.
@@keithshapland903 I need to have a better listen to FEAR as I've given it a couple of quick listens and written it off as average. Will definitely give it another go today
@@irena7777777 Good to hear you are giving it another go as I found it too much to listen to on first few spins. I found it much better once I had the vinyl as it split up into four sides rather than one long play through. So may epic moments during it all. Saw the tour and it was amazing, especially The Leavers.
I was a fish fan 100%...and put marillion aside for 30 yrs after h stepped in...!!!!!! Then i heard songs like fantastic place and this train is my life and i was literally blown away. Started picking up seasons end and ended up with an hour before its dark. I totally changed my mind and opinion and consider them 2 seperate bands and now i don't know which is the best. Hogarth is a genius like fish . Happy to have all their albums and now i enjoy them all.
Fish era for me, but some phenomenal songs from Hogarth
I named my Daughter Kayleigh.. what and awesome voice.. love Fish .. Sugar Mice is my favorite.
"Clutching at Straws" was the first album in a whole new era for Marillion in terms of sound, even though producer was the same that worked on "Misplaced Childhood" (Chris Kimsey). Marillion's music has been evolving from "Fugazy" onward.
I started paying attention to Marillion when I first listened to the "Real to Reel" versión of Forgotten Sons and love most of the songs on the first 4 albums. But I also love most of the songs in their whole catalog.
When H replaced Fish a new instrumentalist came in, and his approach to his second instrument (being the voice his first), is very different compared to the way Mark Kelly plays the keys.
Further evolution of Marillion's sound is heavily influenced by the presence of 2 keyboardists and arrangers.
I love the road Marillion has taken but, of course, I understand perfectly that for other the route was not the one they like better. Every now and then I think that would like to hear new music more guitar-oriented but it is okay for me the way it is because I really like (very much), their compositions based on multi-layered sound, mainly based on keyboards, because I perfectly hear Rothery's guitar, Pete's bass guitar and Ian's drumming.
Regarding H, voice, lyrics, and performance are just as marvelous as I expect from Marillion.
Different to most people it seems, but I love the Fish era .... and I also love the Hogarth era. The Marbles album is always in my Top 5 albums by any band ever. The rest of my Top 5 changes , but Marbles is always in there. Give Marbles more time Pete! And Gaza from the Sounds cd ....wow! Great rant :)
Fish is Marillion. End of story.
Maybe it’s an age thing , my first gig was Manchester Apollo ‘ Marillion’ around 1984.
Fish was and still is my hero, I wish he’d never left and I am growing to like H but those exciting Script days will always be so special to me.
Love them both, but Hogarth is without a doubt my favorite. He has the better voice. Both are pretty damn good lyricists. Fish was so poetic and Hogarth had huge shoes to fill. He has done a brilliant job.
Like them both, but the Fish era material resonates with me most as I bought Script sole;y based on the artwork alone when I saw it in Sam Goody in 11th grade (may have read a Kerrang Interview possibly) those first 4 albums bring back sooo many wonderful memories for me ! All are classics to my ears ! I like some of the early Hogarth material but it's not stuff I reach for often (Brave and Afriaf are my faves !)
Hogarth for me. : )
Firstly, I discovered your channel during lock-down and you've rejuvenated my interest in many bands that I listened to at college in '80's...thank you. Your 80's best album series is virtually identical to mine! As you say, it's always about the gut feeling, so there's no right or wrong here, but just as people have opinions about post Moody Whitesnake or post Blackmore Purple ( I know you do) I have the same about Marillion. I saw them in the Fish era ( favorite gig was Monsters of Rock in 1985) and many times since. I love both era's equally; okay the lyricist has changed but the same four are creating the music in both incarnations. Fugazi and Clutching at Straws I hold in the same esteem as Marbles, Afraid of Sunlight and Sounds that Can't be Made.
I prefer Steve Hogarth. Saw them live during the FEAR tour.
I am a huge fan of Fish era Marillion. Though I did see the Hogarth lineup 3 times at the Ritz in NYC. Dream Theater opened one of those nights.
I also saw Marillion at the Chance in Poughkeepsie in 1987. Met Fish after soundcheck. Cool guy.
Sorry I am a bit late to the show here, but I only recently started following this page and have been really enjoying the recent posts, but I am just now starting to go back to view some of the earlier posts. That being said, I really enjoyed watching your take on the two eras of Marillion just now and wanted, albeit a bit late, to contribute my thoughts.
I started listening to Marillion in 1994, beginning my journey with "Clutching at Straws". I was immediately hooked and had to pick up the previous CDs the very first chance I had. I spent the next few months really sinking my teeth into the Fish-era releases and finding something interesting and new to love with each listen. With "Brave" having been the recent release at the time I started listening to them, I had decided to take a chance on it, and I have to say that while I didn't hate it, I was not at all blown away at the time. However, when "Afraid of Sunlight" was released the following year, I could not stop listening to it. For some reason, however, it did not trigger me to go back and pick up the first two H-era releases. When "This Strange Engine" came out a couple of years later, I remembered being floored by the first half of the album, but it had fallen kind of short for me after that. Once "Radiation" was released, I just decided to give up on them. For about the next decade, I had a friend try to convince me to give it another shot, especially when "Marbles" was released, but I was kind of stubborn about it.
Fast forward about 15 years, and out comes "Sounds that Can't Be Made". I remember simply being curious and checking out the track listing, observing the abundance of lengthy tracks, thinking maybe this could be interesting, and finally deciding it was worth a shot. After listening from beginning to end, I finally got it. It just hit me out of nowhere; whether it is Fish or Hogarth, this is Marillion. Suddenly, I am collecting everything I have missed out on for the past however many years, including "Seasons End" and "Holidays in Eden", and asking myself how the hell I allowed myself to miss out on this for so many years, not to mention "Brave" has since become one of my top three Marillion albums of all time. Once "FEAR" dropped, I finally decided for the first time that I was going to see them live, come hell or high water, and it was honestly one of the most magical concert experiences of my life.
If you were to ask me 20+ years ago if I preferred Fish or Hogarth, I would have gone with Fish before you even finished the question. If you were to ask me today if I prefer Fish or Hogarth, my answer is, without the slightest hesitation...YES!!!!
I totally agree with you Pete
The parallels between Genesis with/without Gabriel and Marillion with/without Fish I find amazing. A few good albums from each after the change, then both dropped the prog label entirely.
Don't know how big they were in the US but in Europe they were massive during the 80's
After Fish left they sank very quickly though there were still some great Hogart-songs.
So I can agree with your rant
I love both eras and I listen to both. I do agree with you on one thing that indeed Marillion have changed their style of músic however It is still good. Fish's solo outputs have been good too so basically we are getting the best of both worlds.
Definitely Hogarth !
Marbles is ok in places? You hit the mini bar too hard.
Saw Marillion when they were at Nostell Priory with Jethro Tull ....August 1982.
This is how it is for me. I like every Fish/Marillion album. Not every Hogarth/Marillion album.
Hogarth is the better singer but there is a magic missing, probably lyrics and character. Let's face it, Fish is a character and brings a lot to a band. Though I do like "Season's End" - which is the perfect end.
Absolute agreement!!
Fish era for me. Always found the Hogarth albums very dull. I was only a big fan of the band for a short time. I started to lose interest after Misplaced Childhood but I persevered and bought all the albums up to and including Brave. I still think their best album is Script for a Jesters tear. Despite the unfair comparisons to Genesis and Peter Hammill in the early days, they were actually quite unique, and were more an inspiration to other 'neo prog' bands, than they were inspired by the classic prog bands. IMO. After Fugazi they became quite formulaic and predictable. The Hogarth albums are completely different, but I just find them boring and depressing.
A nice balanced rant - I was ready to send you horses heads... :)
I see them as 2 different bands, and like them for different things. All 4 of those early albums will always hold a special place in my heart, yet I still think Brave and Marbles are some of the best stuff they've done. It's a shame that they never put on a special tour - can you imagine an hour of Fish solo stuff, an hour of Hogarth era, and then an hour of original Marillion? That would have been awesome.
06:07 - if you listen to the remastered Clutching second disk, you can hear some tunes that ended up on Seasons End and some lyrics that went into Vigil and Internal Exile (Beaujolais Day, Story From A Thin Wall, Shadows On The Barley, Sunset Hill, Tic Tac Toe, Voice In The Crowd, Exile On Princes Street) - you'll find them all on YT.
One thing that needs to be said: the Fish era albums artwork were the best - the jester was the 6th member of the band...
opinions on steve rotherey band? personal opinion, i think he is trying to go back to the early years and to compound this using the vocalist from stillmarillion for touring purposes, who couldnt sound less like fish if he tried
I prefer the Fish era, but I do enjoy Sounds That Can't Be Made, especially the first and last tracks. Garza has some heavy bits, and Sky Above The Rain is so emotional. The latter song reminds me of when my mom and step-dad got divorced. I prefer the Fish era for the theatrics.
Marillion in the 80's with Fish filled a huge void for me. All my favorite prog bands had either broken up or had radically changed direction. So, needless to say I prefer Fish. I liked Internal Exile, his 2nd (I think) solo record. I moved onto other musical forms after that.
Hogarth? Well, Seasons End was a pleasant surprise. A really good record. But, after Holidays in Eden I lost interest in them. I've checked out several Marillion/Hogarth albums since. Some good tunes, all in all. Alas, not really my cup of tea these days.
Fish was a Peter Gabriel copycat, but Marillion was more interesting with him at the helm. Steve Hogarth is a much better singer, not even close, but Marillion became a dull boring band after Fish left.
Amazing review rant nearly spot on to what i was thinking love marillion fish marillion 8.5 out of ten hoggarth 5 Grendel anyone 3 boats down from the candy classics