Pastors, priests and ministers do all the heavy lifting with followers focusing on them as watchers or listeners rather than doers. They foster an audience mentality. Decades of weekly sitting in buildings. It grieves my spirit. 51 million RUclips channels (and counting) adds to the binging. I do not challenge your message at all. Both the Flesh and the Enemy revel in idleness posing as devotion. It’s a pseudo religion, a worldly life warned of in which workers of iniquity lead followers astray. Are we only to sing, dance, study and enjoy fellowship in insular fashion inside buildings many refuse to enter and others now abandon? thank you for addressing a needed/ignored truth.
“And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.” (2 Timothy 2:2) The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the verse above. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after their deaths, Paul instructed Timothy to choose reliable men who could be entrusted with the gospel. In the passage, we see four generations of believer represented: 1) Paul, 2) Timothy, 3) men to whom Timothy would pass along the Gospel message, and 4) those that Timothy’s students would teach. Paul does not say something to the effect that “all believers everywhere would be direct descendants of the Apostles”; he specifically charges Timothy with choosing men who would be qualified. By implication then, Timothy was to avoid those men who might have heard the gospel but would not be suited to the task of faithfully preserving, protecting and proclaiming the teachings of Christ. Clearly, the Bible indicates that the Word of God was to be passed on from one faithful steward to the next and that not all would be worthy of that role. And, clearly, this is a far cry from the non-denominational approach to "church planting" in which anyone can start a "church" in an empty strip mall storefront..
They began with the foundation of salvation by grace through faith in the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, until they found that trip to India can give them power of the flock of God, so they built their new found religion, over a different foundation with a borrowed name, attempting to finish in the flesh, that which was began in the Spirit, and they all made shipwreck, as the Holy Spirit had to leave their gatherings, to only infill individuals who simply believe and abide in His word, until the end. Galatians chapters 1-5; Matthew 24:13.
THANK YOU! I could not agree more. I have been a “pastor” for 35 years and about 10 years ago God started revealing these things to me by studying scripture and studying church history. So now I teach school and don’t take money for being a shepherd.
That’s awesome Timothy! There’s ONE good shepherd and it isn’t any “pastor” that we see in our institutional church system. They’re all either wolves or hirelings. It’s good to see you’re no longer a hireling though, wish we saw more born again “pastors” come out of the unbiblical system that we call “church” today
In most churches, we no longer have a five fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher), we have a one-fold ministry (pastor first and only), and everyone who wants to exercise ANY gift in the church has to pass through the "Pastorocracy" to get permission to operate. Shepherds and gatekeeper are of course necessary, but most American pastors use the Gatekeeper excuse to shut down any voice but their own and their hand-picked enablers and sycophants.
This is also my experience in my region of north of England. What calls itself church has become an antichrist system. Christ is not really head. Certain approved individuals all processed by the system, into the system, consider themselves having the right to rule others in an established, but ungodly and unbiblical manner. I am praying for God to restore humility, God dependency and the renunciation of the flesh and the will of man.
Let me press on this. Pastors have become spiritual CEOs for corporations. They elevate people not by their gifts or fruit but by relation and reputation. They also promote "life groups" in an attempt to say they are "resurrecting" the home meetings of Acts 2. Many follow the model of "study guides" and no one can deviate from the program. I am so tired of the program minded church services. Go to church, enjoy the show, give your money they need, hear the sermon that inspires very little, rinse, lather, repeat. I just can't go, anymore. No gifts, no miving of the Spirit yet, we are "Spirit-led" churches. An old pastor from England wrote in a book that we expect little from children because we expect little from ourselves. How true this is. We don't expect more, we become lukewarm and this is our new "hot". Sorry to say, many pastors are wanting to relate with the people instead of preaching the Word as it should. We are dumbed down to accept what is preached, no discernment, no testing, just follow like spiritual minions. No fear of God in our church. We have no idea how wretched we are.
Pastors are told to build "their church" as a spiritual corporation. Then they advertise and endorse their corporation with "board members" that function to agree with the CEO's vision. I'm actually getting sick of the program structure in services and building to be a bigger and better church, boasting of money and members. If God called a leader over 20 people, that is your flock. Sadly, too many believers accept this current model. Just give me an Acts 13 assembly, I'll be content.
At the gathering of believers we don’t see just elders speaking and sharing , you see all coming with their different gift all getting to participate! But in an orderly manner!
Elders are overseers and shepherds. Their chief role is to oversee the church including teaching, protecting and correcting, etc. - not dominate or do all the ministry. The various giftings, including those in 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, etc., are ministries for the benefit of the church, and the ones in Ephesians 4 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) are specifically for the equipping of all the saints so they can do the work of ministry, not to do it all themselves. The elders also have giftings they use for ministry just as the rest of the believers within the church. Church was never meant to be a spectator sport, but where we each can minister as the Spirit leads, or to receive ministry.
Saved in 86’ through a legalistic shepherding church. Exhausted, burned out and finally thrown away after 10 years of servitude. Tried to find a church home for a long time, but they’re all the same really. I’ve heard about the home church movement.. praying about it. But thank you for this video, and putting into words exactly how I feel, but was afraid it was ‘rebellion’
God's love never fails, you were acting from hurt and disappointment, but God will restore your love for Him as you seek Him. Men will fail us, that's why we need to forgive one another and we need to serve God. Just make it your goal to please God every day... God bless you.
Great points. You hear a lot of bemoaning the plight of the poor over burdened pastor. Well, yes you do become overburdened when you try to perform an unbiblical role.
What I would say is that they go beyond their given ability (1 Peter 4:11),(Romans 12:3-7). They fail to understand that we all have been given a measure of grace and we need all the teaching ministries to perfect the church (Ephesians 4:11-13). When a man tries to do all the teaching and all the oversight by himself without accountability nor others of equal authority it can lead to being overworked and also to abuse of power.
If the paid guy is over-worked, he's not doing his job properly. The ideal paid guy should have time to study, teach, counsel (or 'hang out ') with his/her brethren.
I've done a fair amount of self-study of church history and often felt the way "church" is done now is so far separate from what Jesus intended. Thank you for speaking on this. May the Holy Spirit continue to reveal the direction the Body of Christ was intended to be. I've seen numerous times when the Body is shaken when the senior pastor fails because the Body held them in too high esteem.
@@MichaelJMetz people have fallen for generations because sin is a heart issue. Respect and honour is expected in the church. If a person is humble the honour received from the congregation will not cause them to fall.
Years ago, I served as an elder in a church, one of three. Elders were voted into the position by the congregation for a 3-year term. Our role was to set the spiritual direction of the church in conjunction with the pastor. We helped administer sacraments, took turns with announcements, opening prayer and scripture reading for the Sunday service and preached a minimum of once each the year. We also sat in on the church council which handled the administrative and maintenance issues. I felt that it worked well. The church body held us accountable and we held the pastor accountable, so it never became pastor-centric. This was in a congregation of 120-150.
But I bet nobody in the congregation was allowed to share were they. It was all planned out and led by the pastor or elder standing above the laity . Which is nowhere in scripture.. all were allowed to use there gifts and share . They had to learn how to do it in an orderly manner as taught in 1st Corinthians ! It was never a few people getting to do it all ! Or a pastor . So this still is very sad!
@@kimberlyd7398 Actually, one of the features of this system was that each Sunday there was a time for the congregation to share their prayer requests with the congregation. Because the elders came from the congregation and we were transparent with our spiritual leadership, the congregation felt comfortable sharing their ideas and concerns with us. I'm not arguing for this model, I prefer the smaller house church setting outlined in the Bible, I'm just saying that if a church still prefers the American traditional model, it can be done in a less top-down authoritarian way.
I grew up a PK. I love and respect my Dad. But I started warming up to this message back around 2010, 2012 or so. What you're saying makes a lot of sense from a Scriptural standpoint.
Good points, Matt. Just a casual reading of the NT would reveal that much we do and call church is not to be found there. The way I’ve read it, church leaders were raised up within a local congregation, not imported from some offsite training institution. The qualifications for the various positions would have required that the potential candidates live amongst the congregation long enough for them to be able to verify that he conveyed the character of Christ. Neither of the lists in 1Timothy or Titus mentioned having a higher education. My guess is that the thriving house church movement in China has no such requirement either. Sometimes moving forward means recovering some practices from the past.
Tertullian "[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]). Polycarp was placed by John. Clement was ordained by Peter. These are historical facts. Sorry, but there just is no historical basis for the "house church" concept. Did the early church meet in houses, yes! They hadn't built churches yes (they were on the run, remember?). But they were under the authority of bishops who were under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
Randy, although I now self identify as post-denominational, and was raised up as a confessional Lutheran, I still consider Roman Catholics as fellow believers in Christ, but am somewhat skeptical regarding their understanding of post Apostolic Church history. My understanding of how the Church became institutionalized with a multi-layered hierarchy is due to Constantine. Yes, there were traces of it’s earlier development within the writings of some of the earliest church fathers, but not to the extent that is is now. Because of the Biblical record of how the Apostolic era Church functioned, and how today in places on the earth like China, the house church structure still thrives, I’m inclined to believe that it is still a valid option, especially since here in the West , we’re becoming less Christendom every day.
@@robertkersten3971 As you noted, the writings of the Early Church Fathers PRIOR to Constantine show that the hierarchical structure of the Church was in place long before his day. But an acorn grows into an oak tree despite the fact that it does not look like one at the beginning. I have no objection to "house churches" for prayer and bible study, etc, but let's not pretend that without a validly ordained priest, the sacraments (beyond baptism and marriage) are not available. That's a huge deal. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds as the persecution of the Church in the west increases. I suspect masses will be said in secret.
@@robertkersten3971 As you noted, the Early Church Fathers referenced the hierarchical structure of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. And this was long before Constantine decree in AD 325. Of course, there were "house churches" as we see in scripture before the Church was large enough to afford dedicated buildings. And it didn't make sense to build anything until after the persecutions ended. We may be headed back to the underground if persecutions continue to increase. I don't like the way things are trending in the West.
Shalom. Agreed. Nothing against pastors, Elders, I understand we need them, like we need family, friends, doctors ect. but we can live without them but NOT The Holy Spirit, 24/7. Who can help believers grow spiritually to do the Will of GOD, one to one, n protect us from evil.
Priest craft is what best describes the one man pastor system. Churches become business the CEO gets the company house, company car and a regular income.
So true, that there should not be a senior pastor in a church. I have recently left the church after 21 years of being a part of it. That pastor is a narcissist. Many people have been hurt nad broken by him and the silencing system that he created. We live in Russia, but that pastor spent much time in the USA and he developed American culture in the church. I agree with you that we should follow the Bible model.
I agree with the title 100%. The word “pastor” is Latin for shepherd. This has become an English word with a different role that is not found in the scriptures.
Thank you. This needs to be talked about and put into practice in so many churches. Every time I’ve seen it in place the congregation prospers. But inevitably they want a head pastor, then the politics and envy begins. It’s a sad thing for the church.
Don't be hesitant to call out the unbiblical management of churches. Most Pastors see themselves as CEOs and they control the church. I'm almost 70 years old and I have never found a true Shepherd (Elder) lead church. Today's pastors are building what makes them look successful and important. This has become tradition and as often happens, tradition is treated the same way as things from the Bible.
When Covid hit and so many churches were shut down, I thought, “Great, now the real church can emerge.” Sadly, this did not occur. We went right back to our nonsense and will have to learn our lesson again.
Amen! those were my thoughts exactly. I left the building as well since Covid to join a home fellowship. One thing I have learned is that it is better to rotate into different homes it works better because when it is in the same house the person can be more controlling and think this is my assembly.
That’s very interesting since I have just concluded the same thing with the small group I’ve been involved with. It started out seemingly right but over time I have become increasingly troubled by this development and feel that my close proximity to it and commitment to it hinders my ability to address or even recognize the tendency. The young “pastor “ whose zeal I was initially impressed with is slowly but surely developing controlling tendencies which must be addressed.
I currently am serving as an elder, one of two, in a non-institutional church of Christ congregation. We are servant leaders of the congregation, we both teach and preach on occasion as well. We do have a preacher who primarily handles the sermons and teaches a class on Wednesday evening but does not serve as an elder. We have deacons serve as the need arises.
Fantastic Matt. This American church corporate system is similar to the malls that are on their last leg. Being replaced by Amazon May the brick buildings be replaced with backyard assemblies. Where all participate in doing Gods work
That is certainly some and pastorism a its worst. The majority of churches are under 100 members and don't have celebrities. They can still have the same issue though.
@@revolutionofordinaries There are many who sit in the pews and take the pastor's word as solid gospel without ever fact-checking him with the Scriptures. That is where I see this idolization coming in. They put him on a pedestal and whatever he says, that is what they believe. So, in a sense, there are celebrities even in small congregations. And honestly, I see seminaries contributing to this. Some of the pastors coming out of their theological training get a mindset of: I know more than you and you should respect my authority over you for that reason... Almost like the character Cartman on South Park: "Respect my authority!"
I like what I hear you saying. And to me it does come down to seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance and leading in the matters of church leadership or shepherding as well as for each one of our lives in walking with Christ. That's one more reason for the church to follow that standard...as an example to the flock. They see the shepherds making choices and decisions that way...they follow in those ways of seeking the Lord in all things. Thanks again. I'm always encouraged and refreshed to see there are men of God who have a heart after God still. Prayers are with you and your family. What is your name for my prayers for you? God bless you.
I agree with your concerns as you've stated them. I came to the same understanding about a decade ago. I was raised in the Protestant Catholic system in which the "Senior Pastor" (effectively one who should be a bishop in purely scriptural terms) was the de facto "pope of the few", ruling over the congregation with almost as much authority being assumed, with "deacons", also called trustees or "elders", being ordained to serve as the "yes men" who execute the "vision" of the "pastor", "waiting tables" through addressing the menial tasks that are beneath the "senior pastor", with these persons being chosen because of their obsequience generally or having a great deal of resources or worldly economic or political influence through which they effectively bought their offices. I've also seen the flip side where men who are not true elders (again, using purely scriptural terms) being elected or appointed as such by a mixed congregation who wish to ensure that no one preaches or teaches anything that would make them uncomfortable in their comfortably numb pseudo-Christian carnally minded lifestyles, keeping the true pastors and teachers in check and in line with "the program". When I was a child, I was told to read my Bible. My parents, my grandparents and others in my family, the "pastors" and teachers, the elders and deacons and the truly spiritually mature saints of the various congregations of the churches in which I was raised all told me to read my Bible and to believe and obey it. Much to the chagrin of many of these, I did exactly that, and as you might imagine, the questions and concerns raised by a precocious child were much to their chagrin. Oh well?! Nothing much has changed in my life in this regard, it seems. I'm still looking for a people who simply want to read and obey the scriptures as they are given, paying the price to have a truly scriptural church. I've been given the "left foot of fellowship" on not a few occasions for just opening my Bible, reading a passage of scripture aloud to the leadership, and pointing out how a given church was in clear violation of them. It's hard finding true believers who actually care about anything more than sitting on their "blessed assurances" as they "give" a few scant hours a week to warm pews that are overpriced at 10% of their monetary income, let alone a church where it isn't a "mixed congregation" in which clowns are entertaining goats. I appreciate your charity in how you present your concerns, having seen a few examples of men who in spite of this yet still oh-so-Catholic system in which the vast majority of us have been spiritually raised were truly holy men who fear the LORD God Almighty manifest in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, shunning sin, eschewing evil and preaching and teaching all the counsel of God in the scriptures according to the light that they had been given, with a few bishops ("pastors"), elders and deacons addressing error when it was shown to them, paying the price to faithfully execute the high calling of their office. I know that we are not the only ones who haven't "bowed" to and whose mouths haven't "kissed" the various "Baals" of our age, and I pray that I find a faithful church soon. It's been so long....
We have found church in house churches and it has been a breath of fresh air...it certainly has its limitations but it has been a true life saver for many who have nearly given up on the assembly/church.
Regarding "house" churches, you seem to be making an inference that these are somehow less than what a church otherwise ought to be, given your comment about them having certain limitations. Rather than these perceived limitations being a detriment, I find that these are actually protections by God's design for his churches. As it relates to Jesus' statement that when "two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them", we see the practical basis for the scriptural definition of a church (gk. 'ekklesia'): an assembly of those called out from among a people to execute the authority of the king in his kingdom on his behalf according to his good will and pleasure, to wit, believers gathered in the name of Jesus Christ acting in accordance to the will of our Father in heaven. I encourage you to reread Luke's latter treatise ("The Acts of the Apostles" as men account it) with an eye towards the "traditions" of which Paul speaks in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 being the practice of the believers and the several churches under apostolic leadership as recorded in the historical narratives in the scriptures. As you do, please note that whenever you see "the church" assembled, it is based on the foundation of Acts 2:42-47 as the definitive basis for what constitutes the life and activity of the church in actual daily practice, with the churches meeting in the homes of the believers. A building external to their homes is not once ever mentioned as a place of congregation for the churches, let alone as it relates to the command that we "not [forsake] the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is," with a physical building being called a "church" a phenomenon that is squarely Catholic in origin. The (so-called) "house" church is the true church with the believers in assembly in Jesus' full power and authority according to the sound doctrine of the scriptures, and if there be any shortcomings of practice in any particular congregation regardless of where it meets, it's in direct relationship either to the failure of that church to abide fully by the form of sound doctrine in the faith which was once delivered unto the saints as recorded in the scriptures or our misconceptions of what a church ought to be because of our indoctrination and inculturation into the present system Catholic churchianity, be it "high" or "low" Orthodox, Roman, Protestant or otherwise, and our (unwitting) latent desire to reconcile what we've experienced and have been told that we should experience in that context. I've sought to have other professing believers join me in my home (or for me to join them in theirs) in being a true church according to the scriptures, but I've not found to date anyone in the area in which I live who is willing to forgo the organized, institutionalized "churches" to which they have become accustomed and bound. But I'm still praying and looking.... (This is the first time that I've come across your channel, this video appearing in my feed and piquing my interest. I have no knowledge of your doctrinal and practical commitments beyond what you've stated in this video and that which can be inferred therefrom. It's with this ignorance on my part in mind and fully acknowledged on my end that I'm responding to what you've presented and replied: if I've misunderstood your position or statements, please correct me. I also know how hard it is to express emotion and emotional intent through text-based communications, so I pray that this is received as the charitable exhortation that I intend it to be.)
@@jamesarthurreed We worship in a house church and plant house churches...just so you know. Every model has limitations. I think house church is the best option. Hope that clears things up a bit. Appreciate you.
In my local church of Christ, the “minister” is the de facto pastor, and there are two elders. The minister actually said: “I oversee the spiritual health of this church.” The elders did not object. I promptly picked up my family and left for a Calvary Chapel.
I have said this FOR YEARS!!. I see huge discussions on line now about returning to house churches. The present system worldwide is definitely not biblical.. all are registered charities under government supervision with utterly wasteful and unnecessary ministries like worship ministries , children’s ministries, flag waving ministries. And churches are not United because of denominationalism. And I have said for thirty years I never have and never will address any man as “Pastor so and so” never mind a woman pastor.
@@revolutionofordinaries I go to an evangelical church and went to the same one since I was saved thirty three years ago. But I always knew in my spirit it wasn’t right even though the Lord put me there. I was a brand new believer. And I didn’t get saved within that church as my journey started in London and God was drawing me without hardly any evangelical input whatsoever. I knew in my soul the world was evil ( while beautiful at the same time) and I was a part of that evil. Anyway… it’s not the Lords fault church is insipid and lacking in maturity… it’s our fault.. I take responsibility for my part. But there’s also a leadership responsibility to teach grow and mature the flock. Instead it’s seeker friendly. Now I can go but if the Lord does something new I’m readying myself. I’m not leadership material so it won’t be through me.
You are saying what I have been suspecting for years for the most part. Most 'Pastors' in church are not Pastors. Look at the 5 fold ministry. Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers. Each has it's function, all are equally important for the building up and edification of the body. What we have today is an anemic, church, with a narcissistic leader, hoping everyone will fall in line with his rules for fellowship. No Spirit of God. God seems to be in small home fellowships where people become involved in each others lives.
@@revolutionofordinaries Thank-you so much for your video, and response. I look forward to your offerings (video wise). May God bless you, prosper you, protect you, and increase your influence and ministry
Agree with you here. I like my current church. I do feel that this issue is a weakness in it however because we don’t have Elders. We have the “lead Pastor” as you mention and some deacons. But no elders. I believe that’s an incomplete doctrine. The “ Pastor System” gives too much power to one person.
@@rogerledlow4970 I agree. A board of leaders working and sharing authority helps create much needed balance. I don’t like the trend of house churches bashing churches in buildings. Does not sit well with me. I lease a local church and each week I see lives touched in remarkable ways. We are often the ones people in community turn to when there’s a need. We all house churches everywhere and other forms serve Christ.
another big problem is that the number of men that even meet the qualifications for and elder is so small you could not find 3 in most towns and cities. I am 56 years old and been a believer since I was 23 and I don´t know even one. I was disqualified when my wife left me. I was an elder in an EPC church when i was 27.
Very well said. A lot of people are probably not going to like what was said here, but, it needed to be said. Too many alleged so-called "Christians" think that 'American Style' "Christianity" is the 'be all - end all' , 'the way' that "Christianity" is supposed to be. They tend to think too much of themselves, that they are 'someone special' that has been 'singled out' / 'called out' by God for a 'special purpose' / 'special reason'.
And we spread this brand all over the world...fortunately people in other countries are seeking God and finding ways that aren't ours and are now sharing those with us!
@@ahfortruth He may, or He may not - depending on which version / "translation" of the Scriptures you use and how you read / understand it. The real issue is determining what actually is a real & true 'calling out' by God. Those are extremely rare - they are not 'a dime a dozen'.
I dont thank God makes any difference in men he said in the kjv he has no preference to men so why does one man thank he's the only man or pastor or preacher that is l Gift ed to give gods message I don't care who does the speckin if it is the message and who touches hearts of sinner people ive been in church before and my grandpaw would get up and make a sacrifice or offer in fer god and I wootin get a thang out of it and some other man would get up and melt my heart with the spirit now I believe if people go to church seakin something from god and they don't never feel nothin that they will soon stop goin and ye goda get them to church keep them awake and then if God blesses somebody someone or maybe the whole congregation will feel somethin ye see I believe God's got a lot of feelin in it that's why these old preachers will get out in the cold when they are old n sick to serve God God's spirit will make a old man fill like a young man fer a while and I'm not much on sangin nobody down and deprivin them of that blessin I know they don't won't to give that up the spirit and some of themselves a little long winded but aint that just a little bit greedy to do ye brother like that it does my heart so much good to see my brothers or sisters feel that wonderful spirit nothin else even comes close im not goin to deprive nobody of that I pray fer my brothers to get blessed with that that's how God pays us fer all our work not with money or financial gain and ive stopped goin to church unless its a funeral then I go to pay my respects to the family and if I can help them in anyway I'm there this thang called religion or servin god is bout feelin it's bedder to feel I love ye in your heart than to hear it in ye ear
@@GaryCoburn-l4d Your spelling is atrocious, your punctuation is nonexistent, and you sound like an uneducated country person rambling on, running sentences together, and not making much sense.
We see a plurality of elders, and then the gifting, preachers, teachers, apostles. In worship we see more community which involves both men and women praying. Men and women exercising their spiritual gifts.
Again and again, I have encountered the worldy corporate model in lieu of the Biblical model. Frankly, I've just about had it with organized, highly structured, building-centered "going to" church. Sick of the abuse, the narcissism, the money-grubbing programs that never cease, and the condoning of fleshly pursuits. No more. Done. Bye bye.
Si todos somos hermanos, no podemos cerrar puertas al Espíritu Santo, que se puede manifestar en cualquier hermano. De forma natural, vamos a escuchar más a aquellos en los que se manifieste más pureza y buen ejemplo en su vida diaria y en el trato a los hermanos, sirviendo en humildad, como Cristo mando. "El que quiera ser más grande entre vosotros, que sea vuestro servidor" ❤
I respectfully point out that the only ' church ' building recorded in my King James Bible is a pagan temple in Ephesus. Acts 19 : 37. So alter = sacrifice = priest = temple = catholic ( babylonian / Jewish ) system. Temple worship and sacrifice along with the priesthood were completely abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary. Hebrews chapters 7-10 King James Bible.
1And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, Ephesians 4:11 1This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,a temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not dependent on wine, not violent but gentle, peaceable, and free of the love of money. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 Where in scripture does it say a pastor position is unbiblical?
Allow me to be brutal honest with you. I grew up in the denominations and nearly always had a great relationship with the pastors. There are good ones and there are not so good; and then, there are those who have no business being behind a pulpit! The problem I've seen over the years is the way the role of pastor has taken on more clout than it ever should have. That is the very thing that Christ warned the apostles about. We are not to lord over one another in the body of Christ; and yet, there are those who allow a "game of thrones" approach to church. There's a mindset of: well, I put more in the plate so I have more say than you over what goes on here." POLITICS do NOT belong in the house of God. As of May of this year, I left all that behind. I am sick of it.........and I was considered an elder! I resigned due to conviction of the Holy Spirit.
@ I must admit that although the role of a pastor is biblical, I actually went through a similar ordeal myself. My last 2 pastors of the churches I attended for a total of about 25 years ended in a lot bitterness and resentment against me. I thought after leaving the first one after 20 years, I thought the second one will be better but how I was wrong and after that pastor retired, his replacement was literally a control freak and things went horribly downhill from there so I left and never more will I ever attend and especially be part of a church ever again. I harbor no ill feelings against anyone who treated me terribly but I must live with the bad memories even though I already moved on.
This is the best of Matt’s videos I have seen… it was like a mind meld. I was immersed by a clergyless home congregation back in the early 1970’s where the men shared all the pastoral responsibilities . I have lived decades wondering how 99% of CoC members are blind to the clear truths Matt has presented here. I have a reputation as a troublemaker for repeatedly mentioning these truths. Many of my dearest friends are preachers who have labored through the unbiblical “pastor system.” The abuse and missed opportunities are incomprehensible. The great comments reveal I have not been alone. The CoC has in a sense developed a preacher worship idolatry similar to how the first century Judeans prized the physical temple more than the true temple Christ.
I agree, Matt. The KJV translation of Ephesian 4 is the problem that started it 1st. I prefer to say Scriptural (the Scriptures) rather than Biblical. Case in point, "church" is a Biblical term but not a Scriptural term. "Ekklesia" cannot be translated "church." Ekklesia can only be translated "congregation" or "assembly." Another example in Acts 12:4 "Passover is translated "Easter." Much of the terms and inaccuracies we can attribute to Richard Bancroft, archbishop in charge of KJV translation in the "Fifteen Rules for Translation." Much of these terms have become "sacred" as many don't bother with original word meanings gaining their understanding form the Webster Dictionary. Thank you for insight on the "pastor model." It needs to be pointed out.
I think the entire “paid staff” concept can be very toxic to the volunteers that want to serve Christ through giving of their time and abilities through the local church.
Majority of churches are 501c3 non profit corporations. They don’t have to make covenants with the government for their right to be a church. They do so to get tax exemptions but in the contract they lose their 1st amendment right of freedom of speech and are required by law to sell a product/brand to the people. The corporation (501c3 Church) pays its employees and the titles in the church are employee positions. If the church doesn’t follow the contract guidelines, the government confiscates the lands, homes, vehicles, etc. 501c3 churches are businesses that are recognized as an agent of the state under the states authority of the contract. Paul was not receiving offerings as business under the governments jurisdiction and contracts limiting his speech 😂
@brothermarioalvarez8513 can you name any actual instances of government confiscation of property due to 501c3 speaking on things like politics? To the best of my knowledge it doesn’t happen. The government largely stays out of it so far.
Clergy is not only unBiblical but extremely harmful to the body of Christ. It is the wrong foundation and yields tons of bad fruit. "Why do you call me lord, but do not do what I say?" Titles are expressly forbidden... "you are all brothers."
I have always found it odd. That churches do not have members of the congregation submit bible chapters/verses. After Sunday service the pastor can look at those chapters/verses being submitted. When the whole congregation participates. The pastor should be able to focus on specific topics during the next week sermon.
Feel free to correct me if im wrong, but i heard it started in the second century that the Church went from having churches with multiple overseers to one overseer being over a church or even multiple churches (bishop) even though the bishop is just another word for overseer like pastor/elder.
We see hints of it all the way back in 1 Cor - some follow Paul, some Cephas, some Apollos...people want that just like they wanted a king. It has always been there but American Christianity "perfected" it.
After we left a mega church we were children’s pastors at several years back, (because of illegal and immoral things we saw happening) I read through the New Testament 3 times in a month studying for the sole purpose of trying to see how church/pastor/etc relationships were supposed to be biblically. I wanted to only have the Word, not others opinions. My conclusion was the same as you are saying. I believe we’ve done our best in America but we’ve really set up others on pedestals that only God should be on, and then when they fail, we’re ready to do a character assassination/stoning on them. Cancel culture has always been a staple in modern American church and it’s nothing short of idolatry. Idol favor of the month. Any overly pampered person can get too big for their britches. If you worship a person or a place or even an idea (yes, also worship music itself) that spirit of idolatry is going to get bigger and show up. It is a sin and sin is never satisfied. That’s why we all have so many stories of these things. God, bring us back to Your plan! Thank you for saying this out loud with grace and truth.
My family was involved in a house church for several years and I believe it was much better than the institutional church but there were still some issues just different ones. At times I felt like we were trying to “reenact” the early church.
I remember when I was a child that our church would hold meetings in each other's homes. They would have progressive dinners and study the Word. This is what church should be like.... not one man dominating the pulpit, but all of us having a voice and being able to testify and bring questions and concerns. We can't do that in most churches today.....they do not like to be challenged. Some pastors can't tolerate it at all .
I had the privilege in my teenage years of being a part of a local church body who practice the biblical aspects of a local church operating in the biblical sense of the doctrine of the Apostles. They were Loosely called the Plymouth Brethren Church movement where there was the church body run by elders, and not by One exclusive strongman as we see with Diotrephes in 3 John 9 . I also discovered that with a clergy rule the people stay spiritually malnutritioned and they remain spiritual Dwarfs.
Churches are not businesses or corporations with an CEO pastor in charge of churches full of spiritual shareholders who do their bidding at his will. I think this is one of the most destructive and unproductive mindsets within the Americanized version of the church. The body count style of "let's get them saved and seated" works if your concerned about the bottom line but this leaves much to be desired for the lonely, sick person in need of spiritual healing, comfort and prayerful guidance from a church who actually cares about them the minute they walk through the door. The door is wide, but few will enter comes to mind. Good commentary here, we all need to hear this message.
Many do not even make sure that they are mature, discipled, and above reproach! They are not being held accountable either. So wrong and ripe for wolves in sheep's clothing!
@@revolutionofordinaries Many Protestants have lost faith in the institutional church altogether. It began with the Reformation which - despite its intentions and Father Luether’s profound belief in the validity of the institutional church - ultimately became a secularising movement (its final full flowering is the secular humanism which is rampant in the West today). By reducing or eliminating one of the two primary channels of grace, the Sacraments, Protestantism in its more extreme manifestations is left with Scripture as the sole channel of grace. To counter its innate tendency to secularism, it is forever trying to re-spiritualise based on Scripture alone.
Fully agree with leadership by a plurality of elders. Could you expand on what you said about there being no gap between leaders and laity? I ask becauae I have seen someone who is not an appointed leader (or elder) cause division with a different point of view. They end up gaining support from others until a group splits off to form their own group over something that may not be worth splitting over. How do you protect against that while maintaining elders that are elected?
I agree 100%. Bottom line, regardless if some pastors are good and appropriate, in my opinion if it is not Biblical then we should not be doing it, no matter how "good" the pastor is.
I always appreciate your videos. In this case, I appreciate you not being overly dogmatic against the senior pastor system, while also acknowledging the flaws in the elder-led system. But I've come to a different conclusion than you, I think. I mentioned 'flaws' in the elder-led system-because it's also not scriptural (nor has it been effective for our dying churches). Timothy was told to rebuke a sinning elder publicly, as well as appoint elders. It sounds like the evangelist is accountable to the elders, but also vice versa! We've created a church culture where the preacher has all the responsibilities of a shepherd/pastor, but no authority of an elder. He can't even rebuke an elder publicly like Scripture says. He's expected to have all this education and experience, but a group of guys with none of that often call all the shots. The ministers' ideas are often shot down or fail to be implemented. He's also scared of opposing the elders because his paycheck is tied to it. Where did we get the idea that the preacher/minister/evangelist role is not one of leadership? He's all too often treated like an employee/underdog, and I think that's one thing that keeps most CoC churches small. Besides, I think a lot of preachers are more qualified to be a "pastor" (elder) than a lot of elders out there. A pastor friend of mine was utterly shocked that ultimately, all the voting was done by the elders, and not any of the ministers. A lot of churches have a "senior pastor" AND an eldership. I don't remember you mentioning it. Anyway, I've had more experience with this recently and have come to think this is the best scenario usually. The senior pastor is held accountable by the eldership, but he also has a vote and a vision. It seems to work better than the elder-only system, but just like any system, it depends on the spiritual health of everyone involved.
Good points...and I agree with you. IMO, we got the idea from appointing worldly successful leaders to be spiritual leaders...then it all fell apart. I have seen amazing spiritual leaders be passed over for elder and the wealthy and influential get appointed instead. It is carnal.
I have seen over the nearly three decades of being involved in churches that the people are not growing spiritually, and in fact the church is designed to keep the attendees ignorant and passive as a means of perpetuating the church model they are practicing. I left the organized church six years ago and have been attending home church groups, and saw serious problems with them. Not until I took the reigns and began leading the group did the problems subside. I implemented three changes that I feel are essential to home church group success. 1) Leadership - one or more persons (two is preferred for the sake of accountability) are clearly defined as the spiritual leaders who oversee the group and provide consistency. 2) Doctrinal Clarity - the central doctrines of faith are clearly outlined and taught from scripture at each meeting through an expository teaching approach. 3) Fellowship - true fellowship is nurtured by the small size of the group, the social nature of the setting (sharing a meal in a home), and opportunities to ask questions and wrestle with issues, and the tolerance for differences of opinion on non-central matters (of which there are many). Many organized churches have clear leadership and clear doctrine, but they tend to be overly rigid in the non-essentials, they fail to teach scripture in expository form, and hence fail to provide the essential scriptural knowledge and understanding that every Christian needs, and they fail to nurture genuine fellowship during their gatherings.
Groups need all of what you listed in order to be cohesive and have an identity...as long as the leaders know that the real leader is Jesus and are submitted to His authority you have a better shot at healthy leadership culture. Accountability for all Christians is important, starting with the leaders.
@@Elohimists Straight Bible Based, and yes it is emphasized that Jesus is the leader of the church, His church, I come from a Calvary Chapel background so that grounds my doctrinal faith. I find Chuck Smith was well balanced and solidly Bible Based in all of his positions.
@@SpeakerBuilder I like Calvary Chapel but the one in my area fell short. I went to a bible study on a Wednesday Night and they were discussing whether or not Mary rode side saddle on the colt.
@@Elohimists The Calvary Chapel here also went off the tracks, the associate pastor picked up the pieces and did fine for a year or so, then drove the church directly into the ground. Your example highlights a total failure of leadership, which I have seen a lot in church based home groups where little or no oversight is provided.
It isn't sound to assume that any given practice described in Scripture is normative, obligatory, intended for ongoing use, or ideal. Scripture has to command a practice for said practice to be normative, etc. This is a way of stating what's called The Regulative Principle. Just because portions of the church in Acts (or elsewhere in NT) did something doesn't necessarily mean that said thing was a good idea, even for the time. God's Word is flawless and rules us absolutely. Sola Scriptura. But we have to distinguish between what the Bible commands and what it only describes.
Some things it describes are for us today and other things are not...to say none are for us or all are for us is incorrect. Your comment is an overcorrection, imo. "Scripture has to command a practice for said practice to be normative, etc" - do you really believe that?
A number of people are beginning to realize that the standard Pastor model is not biblical, but we really need someone to put in very plain terms the system and structure that actually is biblical so that people can see it, understand it, and implement it. One of the things I'm finding challenging as I come into a deeper understanding of all this is how to clearly understand, present, and explain the biblical model in terms that aren't overly general or vague. And also one of the biggest objections I hear, especially from leaders, is that we are just tearing down, but not replacing it with anything constructive or better, which is a fair critique.
This problem goes MUCH deeper and further into history than the American or even Western church. You are 100% correct in sounding the alarm. Check out Tom Wadsworth's series on worship services. Also the Last Reformation pioneer school series.
There are mega churches where the lead guy has a shepherding heart and a servant heart...they just typically shepherd the staff rather than the congregation.
Great video Matt! There has been alot of talk about church structure recently because of so many church leaders downfall. Pastor simply means a shepherd one who generally cares for the flock. But the NT does seem to give some the office of teachers also. I am going off Ephesians 4:11-13. So I think scripturally there is a place for some who may be gifted in teaching to operate in that gifting. We have to think also putting this is in the first century context to house church because that is how the early Christians assembled in homes in the first three centuries. When you look at how they did it basicly say four or so elders would cover a geographical area of a house church network or there may be one elder per each house church or the elders of the geographical area would be called upon to help solve problems etc But basicly the elders are generally spiritually mature and must be qualified under scriptural guidelines for leadership and watch over the flock and to help correct teachings that may be a little off and church discipline. But when first starting out it may take some time maybe years before you spot out elders so its kinda governing your own church the best you can till God raises up those elders from among you. We tend to read ACTS like a weekend revival because its so fast paced but in reality ACTS was over a period of 30 or so years. So it may take some time for elders to be risen up from among you. But I think its best to operate within like a house church network of geographical area. The NT model of church structure does seem to be the plurality of elders basicly a shared leadership. But even a plurality of elders can be abused. I think the most modern contrast is Chuck Smith Founder of Calvary Chapel Moses model contrasting it with the board of elders model. I think what happened is Chuck Smith who was in the Pentecostal denomination Four Square that had the plurality of elders structure but they abused that structure. Basicly the elders were trying to control everything from the color of the carpet, paint on the wall and how a leader in the four square should conduct bible studies. Basically Chuck Smith one night in bible study decided to put the chairs in a round circle that encourages more participation and dialogue rather than one person being looked to as the teacher all the time. Well the elders of four square got highly upset with Chuck Smith like who told you you could circle up the chairs? Did you get the approval of the board of elders? Basicly Chuck Smith was highly irritated. Basicly they wanted to control everything even the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit was restricted and could not move. SO you can see why Chuck Smith went to the opposite extreme Moses Model because of his experience in the four square, that there has to be someone at the top making the decisions and a vision for the church and not get so involved in how each ministry or bible study operates out of the church that restrains the Holy Spirit from moving. The problem with the Moses model ofcoarse is the Pastor can become abusive. While Chuck Smith was of good character and humble that pulled it off but a successor who replaces him when the Lord calls them home but under the Moses model their successor may not be of such humility and character as his predecessor. So it don't work all the time because it takes alot of humility to operate the church under the Moses model. BUT even churches that have a plurality of elders like say John McArthur, John Piper etc (I do not approve of their Calvinistic theology) but you can't tell me McArthur and Piper are not calling the shots. So basicly even with some churches model of a plurality of elders they are still operating as the Pastor calls all the shots. We must always remember its not our church its the Lord's church. Jesus Christ is the head not a man lest we risk the danger in creating little mini-pope structures.
The easiest explanation to understand is that the people were ignorant and illiterate. "Priest" usually meant educated; many priests were also trained as physicians -- of those times. Today, as never before in the entire history of humanity, the masses are educated. And we live freer and more abundantly than ever before. And for just 18 years, we have been connected to this Shared, Worldwide Experience with near-instant communication. It is GUARANTEED to Wake THIS Generation Up! The Father know what you need, before you ask.
Some of the issues you discuss here can be directed back to each one of us not seeking God and being Spirit led. Many want someone to do this for them. The few that are Spirit led need to have courage to be the salt and light in their church, to the leadership and fellow believers who need to grow as disciples.
What I see is people putting leaders on a pedestal and believe they can do no wrong. I think we need to act like a body and everybody use their gifts. I’ve been treated poorly and nicely at churches. I also see people who won’t let you be involved and want to do all the job for themselves. I am not a believer in Church membership because I don’t see it in the Bible that I have to sign something. I’m already a member of the body because I’m a repented follower of Jesus Christ? we should indeed have people with good moral values being elders.
Thank you for speaking on this taboo cultural elephant in the Christianity room! I came to Christ and knew that I was adopted into a global family and the body of Christ. Wherever and whoever they were, I knew they were my brothers and sisters. Then I got involved in churches and I was quickly disillusioned by the application and practice that forms the system of "churches". It has formed over the centuries out of tradition, immediate necessity, practicality, convenience, ritual, and cultural relevance. Not actually bad reasons to form churches, But I immediately noticed that churches are nothing more than; A country club with a selected "pastor" as their motivational speaker and a handful of CEOs. There IS a sort of structure laid out in the Epistles: A bishop/overseer, and the deacons/deaconesses working as sort of shepherds of the whole congregation throughout the various gatherings of a city or region. But when you gather, let each one share a hymn or a word, praying and breaking bread together as a communal family of believers. There's no picture of this corporate structure that we've created. The real body of Christ, the true brothers and sisters of the Household of Faith - We are intermingled within the network of these country clubs, actually going into the trenches and bringing the Gospel to the lost, we are the old lady that helps with cooking ministries every month, we are the young men who sign up for mission trips to risky locations, we are the janitor who has faithfully kept your country club functioning, we are the young woman who seeks to care for the youth and share the Gospel and discipleship with the teens, we are everywhere, we ARE the Church.
How do you balance the verses you quoted in this video (which I completely agree with) with: Ephesians 4:11-13 BSB [11] And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, [13] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ. And 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 BSB [28] And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way. We are all priests but not all called, gifted and equipped the same.
It does not say that these people do all of the sharing in the gathering? They help in teaching new believers the ways of the Lord! When the body comes together all have the right to share a hymn psalm, a prophesy , a word.?? Where does it ever show the pastors or elders doing it all?
Using the non-Biblical PASTOR perpetuates two major problems. 1) Provides erroneous job descriptions in the PASTORS head, 2) creates erroneous expectations and job descriptions in the sheep head. If we were to use the 'right' word "shepherd " would provide a much better ex[pectation on both sides.
I agree and I also want to avoid condemning or bashing people who are seeking the Lord and don't understand this. But we really won't change our thinking much and especially not the culture if we don't change our language. The New Testament rarely mentions pastors. Why don't we change our language in a way that reflects the language of the New Testament?
And in Acts someone fell asleep and fell out the window because the preaching was so long. But that doesn't mean it has to be that long. Perhaps the shortest homily was when Jesus said, "This Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
Agreed, our modern day concept of church and leadership is indeed distorted. There are few materials addressing the doctrine of Biblical leadership and I found Strauch's books very good. Paul didn’t consider a church to be established until biblical elders could be appointed. Many churches look successful and suddenly crash based on one pastor and we are surprised?
Thanks for your comment. Can you give more info on this conclusion, "Paul didn’t consider a church to be established until biblical elders could be appointed." Not sure how this would be concluded from the Bible but I might not be remembering something.
I can't make an explicit defense for this position but the closest would be Paul addressing Ephesian elders in Acts 20. It is also implied with his letters to the churches and extra biblical accounts. The early church certainly had problems but a plurality of leaders has many advantages. Far too many churches operate on a business model and do not spend much time on spiritual matters. Eliminate the senior pastor and many churches will fall, the sheep scatter.
Paul (and others) planted several churches, often a mix of Jews (had synagogues) and Gentiles. Obviously he cared about discipleship and wanted these churches to flourish under good leadership. Paul and others established a pattern as directed by the Holy Spirit. It had aspects of the OT leadership but also some new concepts. Paul's letters are evidence of his corporate care for those early churches as he provided oversight.
The Bible is clear on Pastoral leadership. Just read Eph.4:11. Poimen is the Greek word used for pastor. It is the same as bishop=episkope, which is the"overseer" of the local assembly. This is an anointed position chosen by God. What this man is teaching is pure heresy. I have been a pastor/counselor for more than 34 years. The call of God on any pastor is a difficult calling and should never be taken lightly. This man dismisses the office of a pastor as unbiblical, stating that it is "not in the Bible." The use or abuse of the title is a whole different subject, but the office is biblical and made so by God himself. Acts 20; 1 Peter 5; Jeremiah 3:15; 17:16 and 23:1 all mention the title in reference to the call of God as both the preaching of truth and warning against the destruction of the church by preaching devisive messages. All in all, trust the clear word of God.
I don't think that you are wrong. As a matter of fact, I support your position. Words mean something. Think of this, at one time "gay" meant happy. Around the 60s, and 70s the word "gay" was changed to mean homosexuality. It is so ingrained into our society that when one uses the word "gay" we immediately think homosexual. The word 'gay" then provides cover for the sin of homosexuality. We need to take back our words, and don't let them provide a cover for sin.
Words have meaning. There is also the issue of perception and all that is involved in how we perceive what is being communicated but that doesn't negate the fact that words have meaning and they don't just mean whatever we want them to mean.
@@revolutionofordinaries My point is that calling someone a homo, or homosexual verses gay, the stigma is greater with the word homosexual. It makes it easily digestible to say gay. This applies to any words for that matter
Even the conceptualization of the elders as 'leaders' defers to the military-industrial-political view of 'leading'. The elders are shepherds and servants of their little church gathering, not 'leaders'. The Holy Spirit is our leader! So the whole problem of women 'priests' or 'elders' goes away, and we fall back to Titus 2 with the older men and the older women...
We in the West tend to be so worldly minded, in the sense we assume the church should be run like a business, focused on our view of what success looks like. We have buzz words and concepts, which we never question, to check if they are based on biblical concepts and teaching. I’ve only ever met one person who sat down with a Bible and concordance, to start from scratch, to understand what the Bible teaches about church government. One person, in some 40 years! I agree, biblical usage is so important. For example, many Christians think the word “pastor” appears on every page of the New Testament, and this one role is fundamental. No, the word occurs once, in relation to ‘ministry’, and does not refer to the person ‘in charge’ of a local church. Paul describes himself several times as a “herald” of the gospel. In 40 years, I’ve never heard one sermon, or even one teacher, refer to what being a herald means. We are so imbalanced, and far removed from even a basic understanding of the Bible, I think. We talk about “leaders” and “leadership” continually, yet the Bible never talks in those terms, other than Jesus said not to call any man your leader! The disconnect is staggering. Here’s an amusing challenge… to be biblical, if a church does go with a ‘pyramid style’ hierarchy of ‘staff’ in paid ministry, then those at the ‘top’ should be paid the least! I wonder how many “senior pastors” would agree to be paid less than a cleaner, or secretary, even though it’s arguably what Jesus taught us. How many would be willing to work with their hands, as Paul did and taught, to support themselves in ministry, and also help support others? It’s a good exercise to think through why this is not the usual pattern. Is it because we think the world’s way is better, we feel more comfortable with it, or we think Jesus didn’t mean what He said…?
Right on ! Thank you. Identify the difference between churches built on foundations of corporations, and Christ's Priesthood of Eph 4 Jesus established clearly what His foundation looks like. Corporate administration is always about building corporate assets, not people oriented.
It's a copy of Catholicism gone wild. The pastor is our version of a priest, the single pastor with no oversight is a result of arrogance and greed for power.
AMEN! Thank you! I am an old man now, but I assure you, based on a lifetime, that there are many of us who believe and minister under the same beliefs as you put forth in this video. Though there are many of us, we are still the small minority. A minority called to enjoy the full spectrum from being silently shunned to openly persecuted by the Church at large. "Enjoy?" Yes, Jesus culminated His description of the Beatitude-journet with rejoicing in persecution and the Apostles lived to experience it with him. Standing on the truth has a price. A few discover the truth herein, and climb over the fence. Some of those get one foot unto the other side but never take the other foot off the fence. Believe me, that is no way to live. Limping up and down a fence line because of keeping one foot on the fence prevents a person from getting into the field to do the work...and it ends up looking rediculous.
Excellent. It's wonderful to see more and more people being enlightened to the actual truths in the Bible and the reasons behind why God has chosen to orchestrate things the way that He has. I agree that we need to get back to what the Bible actually says but I disagree that the manner in which Christianity is being promoted these days through "church" is a viable option. The only acceptable manner in which to follow Jesus is the manner in which God Himself has prescribed. God, as well as His ways are perfect, they need no manner of change nor improvement. The only real questions that need to be asked are these: "Where does this originate?" AND "What are the results?" Anything that does not originate with God and from Him opposes Him and His purposes for His people. One only needs to look at the results of all of men's doings and creations to discover this. I occasionally talk to individuals and ask pointed questions such as, "What is the church?" Needless to say, we all know how they respond- oh, that's that place on the corner or down the street where people go and worship God etc. or something along those lines. Seeing that this is the average response, "How do these average people come to this conclusion?" I would suggest that it's more than just the definition in the dictionary, it's because that is what the average professing Christian has taught the unbelieving world. That's not just sad that is tragic- because that is the exact opposite of what Jesus says HE WILL BUILD. To claim the church is the body of Christ all the while advertising IT out front and through advertising is hypocrisy. The church IS a building and an organization and that is NOT what Jesus is building. As you know, Jesus is building a spiritual building of living stones wherein He is the head. Just amazing how many people are trying in vain to build it for Him. It's also important to notice just how people respond when I explain to them the actual meaning of church (ekklesia), and what that actually entails. In many cases it's quite positive as people can identify with community and sharing life together. I think we need to be patient with the average church goer but those in church leadership positions know they are out of line with the scriptures. I've talked with a few of them and never had a single person offer me ANY scriptural evidence for what they are doing. My Bible is quite clear that there is only ONE mediator between man and God and also what God calls those who attempt to place themselves in such a position. These people don't need mercy but a rebuke as they are the primary reason these falsehoods continue to spread around the globe. God honors His truth. It is absolutely no surprise that the world is in the awful state we now find ourselves in, when the average professing believer is not only deceived but continues to pursue and promote what God has never endorsed nor supported.
Our words matter a great deal and allowing the Bible to define our terms is very important. Appreciate your substantive comment...thanks for watching Michael.
Should read the epistles of Ignatious. He was discipled by John and was the bishop of the church in Antioch. He talks a lot about bishops, presbyters, and deacons. Emphasis on respecting the bishop, singular, as well as the presbyters and deacons, plural. I don’t see pastors anywhere, but Shepherding is definitely a gift a bishop should have.
@@revolutionofordinaries Of course it is. we can see how the Christians were using the roles during Paul's time. He had just been recently martyred and Ignatius was following his example and instructions on what Paul was referring to in the Bible. People can twist the Bible alone and we see evidence of that everywhere. But when we see how the first church was using that information, sheds a lot more light. I get scripture alone as final authority. But that doesn't mean we can't use other sources that help us understand. Especially when relevant to that time.
@Packhorse-bh8qn I mean that it’s important because it sheds light. I’m sure you use other resources to help you understand scripture, don’t you? Scripture has final authority, but it doesn’t mean we can’t use other sources to help us understand better.
@Packhorse-bh8qn I take it you don’t know who Ignatius was then. He didn’t write anything the Bible doesn’t affirm or anything that contradicts. He was emphatic on what Paul and Peter were teaching. He lived to see Paul and Peter and was discipled by John. That’s about as first church as you can get. Do you not use commentaries, Bible dictionaries, etc. to understand the Bible? How is this any different?
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Thanks for watching! What are your thoughts on this?
Absolutely, Matt! Been there (38 years), left it (18 years ago)... the road less traveled but gloriously worthwhile.
Pastors, priests and ministers do all the heavy lifting with followers focusing on them as watchers or listeners rather than doers. They foster an audience mentality. Decades of weekly sitting in buildings. It grieves my spirit. 51 million RUclips channels (and counting) adds to the binging. I do not challenge your message at all. Both the Flesh and the Enemy revel in idleness posing as devotion. It’s a pseudo religion, a worldly life warned of in which workers of iniquity lead followers astray. Are we only to sing, dance, study and enjoy fellowship in insular fashion inside buildings many refuse to enter and others now abandon? thank you for addressing a needed/ignored truth.
Which salvation doctrine do you teach? Faith Alone or Born Again.
“And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.” (2 Timothy 2:2)
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the verse above. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after their deaths, Paul instructed Timothy to choose reliable men who could be entrusted with the gospel. In the passage, we see four generations of believer represented: 1) Paul, 2) Timothy, 3) men to whom Timothy would pass along the Gospel message, and 4) those that Timothy’s students would teach. Paul does not say something to the effect that “all believers everywhere would be direct descendants of the Apostles”; he specifically charges Timothy with choosing men who would be qualified.
By implication then, Timothy was to avoid those men who might have heard the gospel but would not be suited to the task of faithfully preserving, protecting and proclaiming the teachings of Christ. Clearly, the Bible indicates that the Word of God was to be passed on from one faithful steward to the next and that not all would be worthy of that role. And, clearly, this is a far cry from the non-denominational approach to "church planting" in which anyone can start a "church" in an empty strip mall storefront..
They began with the foundation of salvation by grace through faith in the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, until they found that trip to India can give them power of the flock of God, so they built their new found religion, over a different foundation with a borrowed name, attempting to finish in the flesh, that which was began in the Spirit, and they all made shipwreck, as the Holy Spirit had to leave their gatherings, to only infill individuals who simply believe and abide in His word, until the end. Galatians chapters 1-5; Matthew 24:13.
THANK YOU! I could not agree more. I have been a “pastor” for 35 years and about 10 years ago God started revealing these things to me by studying scripture and studying church history. So now I teach school and don’t take money for being a shepherd.
Wow...thanks for sharing that and for watching and commenting. God bless you TImothy!
That’s awesome Timothy!
There’s ONE good shepherd and it isn’t any “pastor” that we see in our institutional church system.
They’re all either wolves or hirelings.
It’s good to see you’re no longer a hireling though, wish we saw more born again “pastors” come out of the unbiblical system that we call “church” today
Wonderful testimony; praise God. When one walks away from $$$ due to conviction of a truth; that is honorable.
In most churches, we no longer have a five fold ministry (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher), we have a one-fold ministry (pastor first and only), and everyone who wants to exercise ANY gift in the church has to pass through the "Pastorocracy" to get permission to operate. Shepherds and gatekeeper are of course necessary, but most American pastors use the Gatekeeper excuse to shut down any voice but their own and their hand-picked enablers and sycophants.
This has come up a dozen times...you are dead on...we must get back to Eph 4!
@StandUp777 thank you!
This is also my experience in my region of north of England. What calls itself church has become an antichrist system. Christ is not really head. Certain approved individuals all processed by the system, into the system, consider themselves having the right to rule others in an established, but ungodly and unbiblical manner. I am praying for God to restore humility, God dependency and the renunciation of the flesh and the will of man.
Enablers for sure
Let me press on this.
Pastors have become spiritual CEOs for corporations.
They elevate people not by their gifts or fruit but by relation and reputation.
They also promote "life groups" in an attempt to say they are "resurrecting" the home meetings of Acts 2. Many follow the model of "study guides" and no one can deviate from the program.
I am so tired of the program minded church services. Go to church, enjoy the show, give your money they need, hear the sermon that inspires very little, rinse, lather, repeat. I just can't go, anymore. No gifts, no miving of the Spirit yet, we are "Spirit-led" churches.
An old pastor from England wrote in a book that we expect little from children because we expect little from ourselves. How true this is. We don't expect more, we become lukewarm and this is our new "hot".
Sorry to say, many pastors are wanting to relate with the people instead of preaching the Word as it should. We are dumbed down to accept what is preached, no discernment, no testing, just follow like spiritual minions. No fear of God in our church. We have no idea how wretched we are.
At last.... I've waited a long time for someone to say this. My experience after 30 years, is every pastor I've had acts like a pope, of their Church.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment Katie!
Katie, it sounds like you've been in the wrong churches! It can be very hard to find a church that is not like that..
Pastors are told to build "their church" as a spiritual corporation.
Then they advertise and endorse their corporation with "board members" that function to agree with the CEO's vision.
I'm actually getting sick of the program structure in services and building to be a bigger and better church, boasting of money and members. If God called a leader over 20 people, that is your flock.
Sadly, too many believers accept this current model. Just give me an Acts 13 assembly, I'll be content.
Do they really act like a pope? Or do you just have a problem with authority and accountability?
@jresker because it can only be one or the other, right?
At the gathering of believers we don’t see just elders speaking and sharing , you see all coming with their different gift all getting to participate! But in an orderly manner!
That is exactly right! 1 Cor 14!!!
Right, the 'sermon' is a bit of an invention (or, at the very least, an adoption/accretion) within Christianity.
Elders are overseers and shepherds. Their chief role is to oversee the church including teaching, protecting and correcting, etc. - not dominate or do all the ministry. The various giftings, including those in 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, etc., are ministries for the benefit of the church, and the ones in Ephesians 4 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) are specifically for the equipping of all the saints so they can do the work of ministry, not to do it all themselves. The elders also have giftings they use for ministry just as the rest of the believers within the church. Church was never meant to be a spectator sport, but where we each can minister as the Spirit leads, or to receive ministry.
It's been so because we'll getting anyone to do anything can be hard. Or getting the opportunity for those who want to serve can be hard. Gatekeeps
@@philipjohnson5366Amen 😊
As true as it is unpopular. God bless you for stating this truth.
You are welcome and thanks for watching!
Saved in 86’ through a legalistic shepherding church. Exhausted, burned out and finally thrown away after 10 years of servitude. Tried to find a church home for a long time, but they’re all the same really. I’ve heard about the home church movement.. praying about it. But thank you for this video, and putting into words exactly how I feel, but was afraid it was ‘rebellion’
Thank you for your comment Anna...the church started in homes. Constantine helped it move to buildings.
So sad to hear this!!😢 Be strengthened, precious one!
Look into starting a house church. It only takes a few like minded people who want to follow the Bible.
@@harvestvillage695 Amen to that! We are working on helping people get started...let me know if you want to look into it - matthewdabbs@hotmail.com
God's love never fails, you were acting from hurt and disappointment, but God will restore your love for Him as you seek Him. Men will fail us, that's why we need to forgive one another and we need to serve God. Just make it your goal to please God every day... God bless you.
Great points. You hear a lot of bemoaning the plight of the poor over burdened pastor. Well, yes you do become overburdened when you try to perform an unbiblical role.
The average church is under 100. So there are people doing great work without the limelight...probably most.
What I would say is that they go beyond their given ability (1 Peter 4:11),(Romans 12:3-7). They fail to understand that we all have been given a measure of grace and we need all the teaching ministries to perfect the church (Ephesians 4:11-13). When a man tries to do all the teaching and all the oversight by himself without accountability nor others of equal authority it can lead to being overworked and also to abuse of power.
Exactly!
Amen!! Some thrive on the unbiblical control they have taken on themselves
If the paid guy is over-worked, he's not doing his job properly. The ideal paid guy should have time to study, teach, counsel (or 'hang out ') with his/her brethren.
I've done a fair amount of self-study of church history and often felt the way "church" is done now is so far separate from what Jesus intended. Thank you for speaking on this. May the Holy Spirit continue to reveal the direction the Body of Christ was intended to be. I've seen numerous times when the Body is shaken when the senior pastor fails because the Body held them in too high esteem.
Thank you Michael...appreciate you watching and commenting. God bless you in your studies!
@@MichaelJMetz people have fallen for generations because sin is a heart issue. Respect and honour is expected in the church. If a person is humble the honour received from the congregation will not cause them to fall.
Years ago, I served as an elder in a church, one of three. Elders were voted into the position by the congregation for a 3-year term. Our role was to set the spiritual direction of the church in conjunction with the pastor. We helped administer sacraments, took turns with announcements, opening prayer and scripture reading for the Sunday service and preached a minimum of once each the year. We also sat in on the church council which handled the administrative and maintenance issues. I felt that it worked well. The church body held us accountable and we held the pastor accountable, so it never became pastor-centric. This was in a congregation of 120-150.
Voted?
@Packhorse-bh8qn Thats sounds a bit harsh.
But I bet nobody in the congregation was allowed to share were they. It was all planned out and led by the pastor or elder standing above the laity . Which is nowhere in scripture.. all were allowed to use there gifts and share . They had to learn how to do it in an orderly manner as taught in 1st Corinthians ! It was never a few people getting to do it all ! Or a pastor . So this still is very sad!
It worked the few of you, while the rest sit passively
@@kimberlyd7398 Actually, one of the features of this system was that each Sunday there was a time for the congregation to share their prayer requests with the congregation. Because the elders came from the congregation and we were transparent with our spiritual leadership, the congregation felt comfortable sharing their ideas and concerns with us. I'm not arguing for this model, I prefer the smaller house church setting outlined in the Bible, I'm just saying that if a church still prefers the American traditional model, it can be done in a less top-down authoritarian way.
Let he is greatest among you be your servant. Great understanding in your message brother. Your delivery was right on as well. Thank you.
Thank you so much Danny!
I grew up a PK. I love and respect my Dad. But I started warming up to this message back around 2010, 2012 or so. What you're saying makes a lot of sense from a Scriptural standpoint.
So glad it does. Thanks for leaving a comment and watching!
Good points, Matt. Just a casual reading of the NT would reveal that much we do and call church is not to be found there. The way I’ve read it, church leaders were raised up within a local congregation, not imported from some offsite training institution. The qualifications for the various positions would have required that the potential candidates live amongst the congregation long enough for them to be able to verify that he conveyed the character of Christ. Neither of the lists in 1Timothy or Titus mentioned having a higher education. My guess is that the thriving house church movement in China has no such requirement either. Sometimes moving forward means recovering some practices from the past.
That's so true Robert! I call it the old/new approach...new to us but old in its origins...all the way back to the Bible.
Tertullian
"[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]).
Polycarp was placed by John. Clement was ordained by Peter. These are historical facts.
Sorry, but there just is no historical basis for the "house church" concept. Did the early church meet in houses, yes! They hadn't built churches yes (they were on the run, remember?). But they were under the authority of bishops who were under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
Randy, although I now self identify as post-denominational, and was raised up as a confessional Lutheran, I still consider Roman Catholics as fellow believers in Christ, but am somewhat skeptical regarding their understanding of post Apostolic Church history. My understanding of how the Church became institutionalized with a multi-layered hierarchy is due to Constantine. Yes, there were traces of it’s earlier development within the writings of some of the earliest church fathers, but not to the extent that is is now. Because of the Biblical record of how the Apostolic era Church functioned, and how today in places on the earth like China, the house church structure still thrives, I’m inclined to believe that it is still a valid option, especially since here in the West , we’re becoming less Christendom every day.
@@robertkersten3971 As you noted, the writings of the Early Church Fathers PRIOR to Constantine show that the hierarchical structure of the Church was in place long before his day.
But an acorn grows into an oak tree despite the fact that it does not look like one at the beginning.
I have no objection to "house churches" for prayer and bible study, etc, but let's not pretend that without a validly ordained priest, the sacraments (beyond baptism and marriage) are not available. That's a huge deal.
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds as the persecution of the Church in the west increases. I suspect masses will be said in secret.
@@robertkersten3971 As you noted, the Early Church Fathers referenced the hierarchical structure of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. And this was long before Constantine decree in AD 325.
Of course, there were "house churches" as we see in scripture before the Church was large enough to afford dedicated buildings. And it didn't make sense to build anything until after the persecutions ended.
We may be headed back to the underground if persecutions continue to increase. I don't like the way things are trending in the West.
Shalom. Agreed. Nothing against pastors, Elders, I understand we need them, like we need family, friends, doctors ect. but we can live without them but NOT The Holy Spirit, 24/7. Who can help believers grow spiritually to do the Will of GOD, one to one, n protect us from evil.
That's so good! Thank you for leaving a comment and for watching!
Priest craft is what best describes the one man pastor system. Churches become business the CEO gets the company house, company car and a regular income.
Agreed...appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment.
So true, that there should not be a senior pastor in a church. I have recently left the church after 21 years of being a part of it. That pastor is a narcissist. Many people have been hurt nad broken by him and the silencing system that he created. We live in Russia, but that pastor spent much time in the USA and he developed American culture in the church.
I agree with you that we should follow the Bible model.
American Christians have done a ton of good...and then also things like this. Lord help us!
I agree with the title 100%. The word “pastor” is Latin for shepherd. This has become an English word with a different role that is not found in the scriptures.
Thank you for the great comment and thanks for watching/commenting!
Thank you. This needs to be talked about and put into practice in so many churches. Every time I’ve seen it in place the congregation prospers. But inevitably they want a head pastor, then the politics and envy begins. It’s a sad thing for the church.
The flesh runs deep here! Thanks for leaving a comment and watching!
Don't be hesitant to call out the unbiblical management of churches. Most Pastors see themselves as CEOs and they control the church. I'm almost 70 years old and I have never found a true Shepherd (Elder) lead church. Today's pastors are building what makes them look successful and important. This has become tradition and as often happens, tradition is treated the same way as things from the Bible.
I say this stuff and people look at me like I'm a rebel
At least you aren’t alone!
You are. A rebel against the world.
Anybody who challenges the current mainstream thought regarding church is considered as a "rebel". There are more of us than you think.
Great conversation
Thanks for talking about this sensitive subject.
You are welcome! Thank you for watching!
When Covid hit and so many churches were shut down, I thought, “Great, now the real church can emerge.” Sadly, this did not occur. We went right back to our nonsense and will have to learn our lesson again.
Some people left to do new things...new/old things :)
Amen! those were my thoughts exactly. I left the building as well since Covid to join a home fellowship. One thing I have learned is that it is better to rotate into different homes it works better because when it is in the same house the person can be more controlling and think this is my assembly.
That’s very interesting since I have just concluded the same thing with the small group I’ve been involved with. It started out seemingly right but over time I have become increasingly troubled by this development and feel that my close proximity to it and commitment to it hinders my ability to address or even recognize the tendency. The young “pastor “ whose zeal I was initially impressed with is slowly but surely developing controlling tendencies which must be addressed.
I currently am serving as an elder, one of two, in a non-institutional church of Christ congregation. We are servant leaders of the congregation, we both teach and preach on occasion as well. We do have a preacher who primarily handles the sermons and teaches a class on Wednesday evening but does not serve as an elder. We have deacons serve as the need arises.
But is the congregation allowed to share, and let the spirit guide? Or just a few of you allowed and stand above the rest
Fantastic Matt. This American church corporate system is similar to the malls that are on their last leg. Being replaced by Amazon
May the brick buildings be replaced with backyard assemblies. Where all participate in doing Gods work
Amen to this...I am going to be putting out some training this summer, Lord willing.
Sadly, many pastors are more like celebrities for their church and most people in the congregation tend to idolize them.
That is certainly some and pastorism a its worst. The majority of churches are under 100 members and don't have celebrities. They can still have the same issue though.
@@revolutionofordinaries There are many who sit in the pews and take the pastor's word as solid gospel without ever fact-checking him with the Scriptures. That is where I see this idolization coming in. They put him on a pedestal and whatever he says, that is what they believe. So, in a sense, there are celebrities even in small congregations. And honestly, I see seminaries contributing to this. Some of the pastors coming out of their theological training get a mindset of: I know more than you and you should respect my authority over you for that reason... Almost like the character Cartman on South Park: "Respect my authority!"
NIce to see the denominations learning this. The Plymouth Brethren have operated this way since the 1830s.
As have churches of Christ/Restoration Movement churches since the early 1800s.
I like what I hear you saying. And to me it does come down to seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance and leading in the matters of church leadership or shepherding as well as for each one of our lives in walking with Christ. That's one more reason for the church to follow that standard...as an example to the flock. They see the shepherds making choices and decisions that way...they follow in those ways of seeking the Lord in all things. Thanks again. I'm always encouraged and refreshed to see there are men of God who have a heart after God still. Prayers are with you and your family. What is your name for my prayers for you? God bless you.
Thank you so much Tilly! You are such a blessing...prayer is the strategy! My name is Matt. Take care!
@@revolutionofordinaries Thank you. You take care, too.
This video is great and thank you for your insights, this pairs well with Tom Wadsworth series on Why the Early Church did not have Worship services.
Thank you and glad you found it helpful! Appreciate you watching and commenting.
I agree with your concerns as you've stated them. I came to the same understanding about a decade ago. I was raised in the Protestant Catholic system in which the "Senior Pastor" (effectively one who should be a bishop in purely scriptural terms) was the de facto "pope of the few", ruling over the congregation with almost as much authority being assumed, with "deacons", also called trustees or "elders", being ordained to serve as the "yes men" who execute the "vision" of the "pastor", "waiting tables" through addressing the menial tasks that are beneath the "senior pastor", with these persons being chosen because of their obsequience generally or having a great deal of resources or worldly economic or political influence through which they effectively bought their offices. I've also seen the flip side where men who are not true elders (again, using purely scriptural terms) being elected or appointed as such by a mixed congregation who wish to ensure that no one preaches or teaches anything that would make them uncomfortable in their comfortably numb pseudo-Christian carnally minded lifestyles, keeping the true pastors and teachers in check and in line with "the program".
When I was a child, I was told to read my Bible. My parents, my grandparents and others in my family, the "pastors" and teachers, the elders and deacons and the truly spiritually mature saints of the various congregations of the churches in which I was raised all told me to read my Bible and to believe and obey it. Much to the chagrin of many of these, I did exactly that, and as you might imagine, the questions and concerns raised by a precocious child were much to their chagrin. Oh well?! Nothing much has changed in my life in this regard, it seems.
I'm still looking for a people who simply want to read and obey the scriptures as they are given, paying the price to have a truly scriptural church. I've been given the "left foot of fellowship" on not a few occasions for just opening my Bible, reading a passage of scripture aloud to the leadership, and pointing out how a given church was in clear violation of them. It's hard finding true believers who actually care about anything more than sitting on their "blessed assurances" as they "give" a few scant hours a week to warm pews that are overpriced at 10% of their monetary income, let alone a church where it isn't a "mixed congregation" in which clowns are entertaining goats.
I appreciate your charity in how you present your concerns, having seen a few examples of men who in spite of this yet still oh-so-Catholic system in which the vast majority of us have been spiritually raised were truly holy men who fear the LORD God Almighty manifest in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, shunning sin, eschewing evil and preaching and teaching all the counsel of God in the scriptures according to the light that they had been given, with a few bishops ("pastors"), elders and deacons addressing error when it was shown to them, paying the price to faithfully execute the high calling of their office. I know that we are not the only ones who haven't "bowed" to and whose mouths haven't "kissed" the various "Baals" of our age, and I pray that I find a faithful church soon. It's been so long....
We have found church in house churches and it has been a breath of fresh air...it certainly has its limitations but it has been a true life saver for many who have nearly given up on the assembly/church.
Regarding "house" churches, you seem to be making an inference that these are somehow less than what a church otherwise ought to be, given your comment about them having certain limitations. Rather than these perceived limitations being a detriment, I find that these are actually protections by God's design for his churches. As it relates to Jesus' statement that when "two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them", we see the practical basis for the scriptural definition of a church (gk. 'ekklesia'): an assembly of those called out from among a people to execute the authority of the king in his kingdom on his behalf according to his good will and pleasure, to wit, believers gathered in the name of Jesus Christ acting in accordance to the will of our Father in heaven.
I encourage you to reread Luke's latter treatise ("The Acts of the Apostles" as men account it) with an eye towards the "traditions" of which Paul speaks in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 being the practice of the believers and the several churches under apostolic leadership as recorded in the historical narratives in the scriptures. As you do, please note that whenever you see "the church" assembled, it is based on the foundation of Acts 2:42-47 as the definitive basis for what constitutes the life and activity of the church in actual daily practice, with the churches meeting in the homes of the believers. A building external to their homes is not once ever mentioned as a place of congregation for the churches, let alone as it relates to the command that we "not [forsake] the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is," with a physical building being called a "church" a phenomenon that is squarely Catholic in origin.
The (so-called) "house" church is the true church with the believers in assembly in Jesus' full power and authority according to the sound doctrine of the scriptures, and if there be any shortcomings of practice in any particular congregation regardless of where it meets, it's in direct relationship either to the failure of that church to abide fully by the form of sound doctrine in the faith which was once delivered unto the saints as recorded in the scriptures or our misconceptions of what a church ought to be because of our indoctrination and inculturation into the present system Catholic churchianity, be it "high" or "low" Orthodox, Roman, Protestant or otherwise, and our (unwitting) latent desire to reconcile what we've experienced and have been told that we should experience in that context. I've sought to have other professing believers join me in my home (or for me to join them in theirs) in being a true church according to the scriptures, but I've not found to date anyone in the area in which I live who is willing to forgo the organized, institutionalized "churches" to which they have become accustomed and bound.
But I'm still praying and looking....
(This is the first time that I've come across your channel, this video appearing in my feed and piquing my interest. I have no knowledge of your doctrinal and practical commitments beyond what you've stated in this video and that which can be inferred therefrom. It's with this ignorance on my part in mind and fully acknowledged on my end that I'm responding to what you've presented and replied: if I've misunderstood your position or statements, please correct me. I also know how hard it is to express emotion and emotional intent through text-based communications, so I pray that this is received as the charitable exhortation that I intend it to be.)
@@jamesarthurreed We worship in a house church and plant house churches...just so you know. Every model has limitations. I think house church is the best option. Hope that clears things up a bit. Appreciate you.
In my local church of Christ, the “minister” is the de facto pastor, and there are two elders. The minister actually said: “I oversee the spiritual health of this church.” The elders did not object. I promptly picked up my family and left for a Calvary Chapel.
Glad you did.
I wish there was a Calvary Chapel near to us. Closest one is 1.5 hours away.
I have said this FOR YEARS!!. I see huge discussions on line now about returning to house churches. The present system worldwide is definitely not biblical.. all are registered charities under government supervision with utterly wasteful and unnecessary ministries like worship ministries , children’s ministries, flag waving ministries. And churches are not United because of denominationalism. And I have said for thirty years I never have and never will address any man as “Pastor so and so” never mind a woman pastor.
I am with you...are you in a home church now?
@@revolutionofordinaries I go to an evangelical church and went to the same one since I was saved thirty three years ago. But I always knew in my spirit it wasn’t right even though the Lord put me there. I was a brand new believer. And I didn’t get saved within that church as my journey started in London and God was drawing me without hardly any evangelical input whatsoever. I knew in my soul the world was evil ( while beautiful at the same time) and I was a part of that evil. Anyway… it’s not the Lords fault church is insipid and lacking in maturity… it’s our fault.. I take responsibility for my part. But there’s also a leadership responsibility to teach grow and mature the flock. Instead it’s seeker friendly. Now I can go but if the Lord does something new I’m readying myself. I’m not leadership material so it won’t be through me.
amen. The single greatest need in the church today
People take this as gospel...thanks for watching and leaving a comment Lewis!
You are saying what I have been suspecting for years for the most part. Most 'Pastors' in church are not Pastors. Look at the 5 fold ministry. Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers. Each has it's function, all are equally important for the building up and edification of the body. What we have today is an anemic, church, with a narcissistic leader, hoping everyone will fall in line with his rules for fellowship. No Spirit of God. God seems to be in small home fellowships where people become involved in each others lives.
Gotta do a video on Eph 4! So good Kenneth!
@@revolutionofordinaries Thank-you so much for your video, and response. I look forward to your offerings (video wise). May God bless you, prosper you, protect you, and increase your influence and ministry
Agree with you here. I like my current church. I do feel that this issue is a weakness in it however because we don’t have Elders. We have the “lead Pastor” as you mention and some deacons. But no elders. I believe that’s an incomplete doctrine. The “ Pastor System” gives too much power to one person.
Thank you Roger...appreciate you taking the time to comment!
@@rogerledlow4970 I agree. A board of leaders working and sharing authority helps create much needed balance. I don’t like the trend of house churches bashing churches in buildings. Does not sit well with me. I lease a local church and each week I see lives touched in remarkable ways. We are often the ones people in community turn to when there’s a need. We all house churches everywhere and other forms serve Christ.
another big problem is that the number of men that even meet the qualifications for and elder is so small you could not find 3 in most towns and cities. I am 56 years old and been a believer since I was 23 and I don´t know even one. I was disqualified when my wife left me. I was an elder in an EPC church when i was 27.
Yes, yes and yes!
Thank you for watching and taking the time to leave a comment! God bless you.
Very well said. A lot of people are probably not going to like what was said here, but, it needed to be said. Too many alleged so-called "Christians" think that 'American Style' "Christianity" is the 'be all - end all' , 'the way' that "Christianity" is supposed to be. They tend to think too much of themselves, that they are 'someone special' that has been 'singled out' / 'called out' by God for a 'special purpose' / 'special reason'.
And we spread this brand all over the world...fortunately people in other countries are seeking God and finding ways that aren't ours and are now sharing those with us!
@@alpscraftshack599 God does call people out for a special purpose though or doesn’t he?
@@ahfortruth He may, or He may not - depending on which version / "translation" of the Scriptures you use and how you read / understand it. The real issue is determining what actually is a real & true 'calling out' by God. Those are extremely rare - they are not 'a dime a dozen'.
I dont thank God makes any difference in men he said in the kjv he has no preference to men so why does one man thank he's the only man or pastor or preacher that is l
Gift ed to give gods message I don't care who does the speckin if it is the message and who touches hearts of sinner people ive been in church before and my grandpaw would get up and make a sacrifice or offer in fer god and I wootin get a thang out of it and some other man would get up and melt my heart with the spirit now I believe if people go to church seakin something from god and they don't never feel nothin that they will soon stop goin and ye goda get them to church keep them awake and then if God blesses somebody someone or maybe the whole congregation will feel somethin ye see I believe God's got a lot of feelin in it that's why these old preachers will get out in the cold when they are old n sick to serve God God's spirit will make a old man fill like a young man fer a while and I'm not much on sangin nobody down and deprivin them of that blessin I know they don't won't to give that up the spirit and some of themselves a little long winded but aint that just a little bit greedy to do ye brother like that it does my heart so much good to see my brothers or sisters feel that wonderful spirit nothin else even comes close im not goin to deprive nobody of that I pray fer my brothers to get blessed with that that's how God pays us fer all our work not with money or financial gain and ive stopped goin to church unless its a funeral then I go to pay my respects to the family and if I can help them in anyway I'm there this thang called religion or servin god is bout feelin it's bedder to feel I love ye in your heart than to hear it in ye ear
@@GaryCoburn-l4d Your spelling is atrocious, your punctuation is nonexistent, and you sound like an uneducated country person rambling on, running sentences together, and not making much sense.
Thank you Matt for making these videos! 🎉❤😊 i totally agree
So glad it was helpful!
We see a plurality of elders, and then the gifting, preachers, teachers, apostles.
In worship we see more community which involves both men and women praying. Men and women exercising their spiritual gifts.
Exactly right.
Jesus is our pastor..
yes the ONLY ONE.
This makes absolute sense. Do you know of sound house church in uk?
Again and again, I have encountered the worldy corporate model in lieu of the Biblical model. Frankly, I've just about had it with organized, highly structured, building-centered "going to" church. Sick of the abuse, the narcissism, the money-grubbing programs that never cease, and the condoning of fleshly pursuits. No more. Done. Bye bye.
I feel your frustration on this...totally get it. This is why we moved to house church.
There are exceptional examples of good pastors, but that’s because they’re the exception rather than the rule
Most lead churches of less than 100 and you will never know their name nor do they care if you know their name.
i love your bookshelves
Thank you! An architect friend and I built them when my office moved home.
An elder refers to the older men of the church not a position
@@scottweathersby6659 false.
The word can mean both and the difference is context. Words have multiple meanings this is one of them.
thanks
Si todos somos hermanos, no podemos cerrar puertas al Espíritu Santo, que se puede manifestar en cualquier hermano. De forma natural, vamos a escuchar más a aquellos en los que se manifieste más pureza y buen ejemplo en su vida diaria y en el trato a los hermanos, sirviendo en humildad, como Cristo mando. "El que quiera ser más grande entre vosotros, que sea vuestro servidor" ❤
I respectfully point out that the only ' church ' building recorded in my King James Bible is a pagan temple in Ephesus. Acts 19 : 37.
So alter = sacrifice = priest = temple = catholic ( babylonian / Jewish ) system.
Temple worship and sacrifice along with the priesthood were completely abolished by the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary. Hebrews chapters 7-10 King James Bible.
1And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, Ephesians 4:11
1This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,a temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not dependent on wine, not violent but gentle, peaceable, and free of the love of money. 1 Timothy 3:1-7
Where in scripture does it say a pastor position is unbiblical?
Allow me to be brutal honest with you. I grew up in the denominations and nearly always had a great relationship with the pastors. There are good ones and there are not so good; and then, there are those who have no business being behind a pulpit! The problem I've seen over the years is the way the role of pastor has taken on more clout than it ever should have. That is the very thing that Christ warned the apostles about. We are not to lord over one another in the body of Christ; and yet, there are those who allow a "game of thrones" approach to church. There's a mindset of: well, I put more in the plate so I have more say than you over what goes on here." POLITICS do NOT belong in the house of God. As of May of this year, I left all that behind. I am sick of it.........and I was considered an elder! I resigned due to conviction of the Holy Spirit.
@ I must admit that although the role of a pastor is biblical, I actually went through a similar ordeal myself.
My last 2 pastors of the churches I attended for a total of about 25 years ended in a lot bitterness and resentment against me. I thought after leaving the first one after 20 years, I thought the second one will be better but how I was wrong and after that pastor retired, his replacement was literally a control freak and things went horribly downhill from there so I left and never more will I ever attend and especially be part of a church ever again.
I harbor no ill feelings against anyone who treated me terribly but I must live with the bad memories even though I already moved on.
Great exhortation! Semper reformanda
Thank you so much!
This is the best of Matt’s videos I have seen… it was like a mind meld.
I was immersed by a clergyless home congregation back in the early 1970’s where the men shared all the pastoral responsibilities . I have lived decades wondering how 99% of CoC members are blind to the clear truths Matt has presented here.
I have a reputation as a troublemaker for repeatedly mentioning these truths.
Many of my dearest friends are preachers who have labored through the unbiblical “pastor system.” The abuse and missed opportunities are incomprehensible.
The great comments reveal I have not been alone.
The CoC has in a sense developed a preacher worship idolatry similar to how the first century Judeans prized the physical temple more than the true temple Christ.
So glad this clicked! Appreciate your comment and thoughts!
I agree, Matt. The KJV translation of Ephesian 4 is the problem that started it 1st. I prefer to say Scriptural (the Scriptures) rather than Biblical. Case in point, "church" is a Biblical term but not a Scriptural term. "Ekklesia" cannot be translated "church." Ekklesia can only be translated "congregation" or "assembly." Another example in Acts 12:4 "Passover is translated "Easter." Much of the terms and inaccuracies we can attribute to Richard Bancroft, archbishop in charge of KJV translation in the "Fifteen Rules for Translation." Much of these terms have become "sacred" as many don't bother with original word meanings gaining their understanding form the Webster Dictionary. Thank you for insight on the "pastor model." It needs to be pointed out.
I think the entire “paid staff” concept can be very toxic to the volunteers that want to serve Christ through giving of their time and abilities through the local church.
It can be but isn't always. Paul said in 1 Cor 9 it is okay to be paid for ministry. Thanks for leaving a comment!
Majority of churches are 501c3 non profit corporations. They don’t have to make covenants with the government for their right to be a church. They do so to get tax exemptions but in the contract they lose their 1st amendment right of freedom of speech and are required by law to sell a product/brand to the people. The corporation (501c3 Church) pays its employees and the titles in the church are employee positions. If the church doesn’t follow the contract guidelines, the government confiscates the lands, homes, vehicles, etc. 501c3 churches are businesses that are recognized as an agent of the state under the states authority of the contract.
Paul was not receiving offerings as business under the governments jurisdiction and contracts limiting his speech 😂
@brothermarioalvarez8513 can you name any actual instances of government confiscation of property due to 501c3 speaking on things like politics? To the best of my knowledge it doesn’t happen. The government largely stays out of it so far.
Clergy is not only unBiblical but extremely harmful to the body of Christ. It is the wrong foundation and yields tons of bad fruit. "Why do you call me lord, but do not do what I say?" Titles are expressly forbidden... "you are all brothers."
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment
I have always found it odd. That churches do not have members of the congregation submit bible chapters/verses. After Sunday service the pastor can look at those chapters/verses being submitted. When the whole congregation participates. The pastor should be able to focus on specific topics during the next week sermon.
That's a good idea some of the time. Expository preaching is also important.
What is the “pillar and foundation” of the truth? (cf. 1 Tim 3:15)
Thanks Randy! Appreciate you watching and commenting. Hope you have an amazing day!
@@revolutionofordinaries My pleasure. Same to you, sir. 🙂
Feel free to correct me if im wrong, but i heard it started in the second century that the Church went from having churches with multiple overseers to one overseer being over a church or even multiple churches (bishop) even though the bishop is just another word for overseer like pastor/elder.
We see hints of it all the way back in 1 Cor - some follow Paul, some Cephas, some Apollos...people want that just like they wanted a king. It has always been there but American Christianity "perfected" it.
There was a a book called pagen Christianity ! It really goes through church history and how we got this! So worth the read !
I think the first letter of Clement demonstrates this.
After we left a mega church we were children’s pastors at several years back, (because of illegal and immoral things we saw happening) I read through the New Testament 3 times in a month studying for the sole purpose of trying to see how church/pastor/etc relationships were supposed to be biblically. I wanted to only have the Word, not others opinions. My conclusion was the same as you are saying. I believe we’ve done our best in America but we’ve really set up others on pedestals that only God should be on, and then when they fail, we’re ready to do a character assassination/stoning on them. Cancel culture has always been a staple in modern American church and it’s nothing short of idolatry. Idol favor of the month. Any overly pampered person can get too big for their britches. If you worship a person or a place or even an idea (yes, also worship music itself) that spirit of idolatry is going to get bigger and show up. It is a sin and sin is never satisfied. That’s why we all have so many stories of these things. God, bring us back to Your plan!
Thank you for saying this out loud with grace and truth.
My family was involved in a house church for several years and I believe it was much better than the institutional church but there were still some issues just different ones. At times I felt like we were trying to “reenact” the early church.
I get that. It can't be just another show on a small scale...it must be authentic and relational.
I remember when I was a child that our church would hold meetings in each other's homes. They would have progressive dinners and study the Word. This is what church should be like.... not one man dominating the pulpit, but all of us having a voice and being able to testify and bring questions and concerns. We can't do that in most churches today.....they do not like to be challenged. Some pastors can't tolerate it at all .
I had the privilege in my teenage years of being a part of a local church body who practice the biblical aspects of a local church operating in the biblical sense of the doctrine of the Apostles. They were Loosely called the Plymouth Brethren Church movement where there was the church body run by elders, and not by One exclusive strongman as we see with Diotrephes in 3 John 9 . I also discovered that with a clergy rule the people stay spiritually malnutritioned and they remain spiritual Dwarfs.
All accurate conclusions...appreciate you taking the time to comment.
Pastors need to get a job and work. We dont need a person sitting at a desk and attending meetings . They made churches s business
Amen...there is a place for paid church work but bi-vocational is great.
Churches are not businesses or corporations with an CEO pastor in charge of churches full of spiritual shareholders who do their bidding at his will. I think this is one of the most destructive and unproductive mindsets within the Americanized version of the church. The body count style of "let's get them saved and seated" works if your concerned about the bottom line but this leaves much to be desired for the lonely, sick person in need of spiritual healing, comfort and prayerful guidance from a church who actually cares about them the minute they walk through the door. The door is wide, but few will enter comes to mind. Good commentary here, we all need to hear this message.
Appreciate you taking the time to leave a substantive comment like you did.
Many do not even make sure that they are mature, discipled, and above reproach! They are not being held accountable either. So wrong and ripe for wolves in sheep's clothing!
We want the qualifications without all the other scriptures that talk about what it means to be an elder/pastor/shepherd.
After nearly 2000 years, some Christians are still re-inventing the wheel.
Sad but true...the flesh. Appreciate you leaving a comment.
@@revolutionofordinaries Many Protestants have lost faith in the institutional church altogether. It began with the Reformation which - despite its intentions and Father Luether’s profound belief in the validity of the institutional church - ultimately became a secularising movement (its final full flowering is the secular humanism which is rampant in the West today). By reducing or eliminating one of the two primary channels of grace, the Sacraments, Protestantism in its more extreme manifestations is left with Scripture as the sole channel of grace. To counter its innate tendency to secularism, it is forever trying to re-spiritualise based on Scripture alone.
I think you made some very good points.
Thank you Anne!
Bear in mind also the letters to the "angels" of the churches in Revelation.
Good point...thanks for watching Tom!
Teach! I agree
Thank you for watching!
Fully agree with leadership by a plurality of elders. Could you expand on what you said about there being no gap between leaders and laity? I ask becauae I have seen someone who is not an appointed leader (or elder) cause division with a different point of view. They end up gaining support from others until a group splits off to form their own group over something that may not be worth splitting over. How do you protect against that while maintaining elders that are elected?
I agree 100%. Bottom line, regardless if some pastors are good and appropriate, in my opinion if it is not Biblical then we should not be doing it, no matter how "good" the pastor is.
Amen!!
That's a fair point...I just don't want to demonize people who are doing good work.
I always appreciate your videos. In this case, I appreciate you not being overly dogmatic against the senior pastor system, while also acknowledging the flaws in the elder-led system. But I've come to a different conclusion than you, I think.
I mentioned 'flaws' in the elder-led system-because it's also not scriptural (nor has it been effective for our dying churches). Timothy was told to rebuke a sinning elder publicly, as well as appoint elders. It sounds like the evangelist is accountable to the elders, but also vice versa!
We've created a church culture where the preacher has all the responsibilities of a shepherd/pastor, but no authority of an elder. He can't even rebuke an elder publicly like Scripture says. He's expected to have all this education and experience, but a group of guys with none of that often call all the shots. The ministers' ideas are often shot down or fail to be implemented. He's also scared of opposing the elders because his paycheck is tied to it.
Where did we get the idea that the preacher/minister/evangelist role is not one of leadership? He's all too often treated like an employee/underdog, and I think that's one thing that keeps most CoC churches small. Besides, I think a lot of preachers are more qualified to be a "pastor" (elder) than a lot of elders out there. A pastor friend of mine was utterly shocked that ultimately, all the voting was done by the elders, and not any of the ministers.
A lot of churches have a "senior pastor" AND an eldership. I don't remember you mentioning it. Anyway, I've had more experience with this recently and have come to think this is the best scenario usually. The senior pastor is held accountable by the eldership, but he also has a vote and a vision. It seems to work better than the elder-only system, but just like any system, it depends on the spiritual health of everyone involved.
Good points...and I agree with you. IMO, we got the idea from appointing worldly successful leaders to be spiritual leaders...then it all fell apart. I have seen amazing spiritual leaders be passed over for elder and the wealthy and influential get appointed instead. It is carnal.
I have seen over the nearly three decades of being involved in churches that the people are not growing spiritually, and in fact the church is designed to keep the attendees ignorant and passive as a means of perpetuating the church model they are practicing. I left the organized church six years ago and have been attending home church groups, and saw serious problems with them. Not until I took the reigns and began leading the group did the problems subside. I implemented three changes that I feel are essential to home church group success. 1) Leadership - one or more persons (two is preferred for the sake of accountability) are clearly defined as the spiritual leaders who oversee the group and provide consistency. 2) Doctrinal Clarity - the central doctrines of faith are clearly outlined and taught from scripture at each meeting through an expository teaching approach. 3) Fellowship - true fellowship is nurtured by the small size of the group, the social nature of the setting (sharing a meal in a home), and opportunities to ask questions and wrestle with issues, and the tolerance for differences of opinion on non-central matters (of which there are many). Many organized churches have clear leadership and clear doctrine, but they tend to be overly rigid in the non-essentials, they fail to teach scripture in expository form, and hence fail to provide the essential scriptural knowledge and understanding that every Christian needs, and they fail to nurture genuine fellowship during their gatherings.
Groups need all of what you listed in order to be cohesive and have an identity...as long as the leaders know that the real leader is Jesus and are submitted to His authority you have a better shot at healthy leadership culture. Accountability for all Christians is important, starting with the leaders.
Do you teach the Protestant Faith Alone? Or Born Again?
@@Elohimists Straight Bible Based, and yes it is emphasized that Jesus is the leader of the church, His church, I come from a Calvary Chapel background so that grounds my doctrinal faith. I find Chuck Smith was well balanced and solidly Bible Based in all of his positions.
@@SpeakerBuilder I like Calvary Chapel but the one in my area fell short. I went to a bible study on a Wednesday Night and they were discussing whether or not Mary rode side saddle on the colt.
@@Elohimists The Calvary Chapel here also went off the tracks, the associate pastor picked up the pieces and did fine for a year or so, then drove the church directly into the ground. Your example highlights a total failure of leadership, which I have seen a lot in church based home groups where little or no oversight is provided.
Welcome to the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints...
Oh man...don't get me started on that one!
@@revolutionofordinaries Just saying, if we're talking about biblical Models. The Catholic church doesn't have 12 apostles.
@Packhorse-bh8qn good 17 points of Christ's church
@Packhorse-bh8qn Google 17 points of Christ's church
It isn't sound to assume that any given practice described in Scripture is normative, obligatory, intended for ongoing use, or ideal. Scripture has to command a practice for said practice to be normative, etc. This is a way of stating what's called The Regulative Principle. Just because portions of the church in Acts (or elsewhere in NT) did something doesn't necessarily mean that said thing was a good idea, even for the time. God's Word is flawless and rules us absolutely. Sola Scriptura. But we have to distinguish between what the Bible commands and what it only describes.
Some things it describes are for us today and other things are not...to say none are for us or all are for us is incorrect. Your comment is an overcorrection, imo.
"Scripture has to command a practice for said practice to be normative, etc" - do you really believe that?
A number of people are beginning to realize that the standard Pastor model is not biblical, but we really need someone to put in very plain terms the system and structure that actually is biblical so that people can see it, understand it, and implement it.
One of the things I'm finding challenging as I come into a deeper understanding of all this is how to clearly understand, present, and explain the biblical model in terms that aren't overly general or vague.
And also one of the biggest objections I hear, especially from leaders, is that we are just tearing down, but not replacing it with anything constructive or better, which is a fair critique.
There are many out there replacing it with something better. House churches are springing up all over the place!
This problem goes MUCH deeper and further into history than the American or even Western church. You are 100% correct in sounding the alarm.
Check out Tom Wadsworth's series on worship services.
Also the Last Reformation pioneer school series.
Thanks for leaving a comment...hard times are coming but I am incredibly hopeful!
The plurality of Elders is the only truly Biblical model. However, there are churches in South Africa where pastors are true shepherds of the flock.
There are mega churches where the lead guy has a shepherding heart and a servant heart...they just typically shepherd the staff rather than the congregation.
Great video Matt! There has been alot of talk about church structure recently because of so many church leaders downfall. Pastor simply means a shepherd one who generally cares for the flock. But the NT does seem to give some the office of teachers also. I am going off Ephesians 4:11-13. So I think scripturally there is a place for some who may be gifted in teaching to operate in that gifting.
We have to think also putting this is in the first century context to house church because that is how the early Christians assembled in homes in the first three centuries. When you look at how they did it basicly say four or so elders would cover a geographical area of a house church network or there may be one elder per each house church or the elders of the geographical area would be called upon to help solve problems etc But basicly the elders are generally spiritually mature and must be qualified under scriptural guidelines for leadership and watch over the flock and to help correct teachings that may be a little off and church discipline. But when first starting out it may take some time maybe years before you spot out elders so its kinda governing your own church the best you can till God raises up those elders from among you. We tend to read ACTS like a weekend revival because its so fast paced but in reality ACTS was over a period of 30 or so years. So it may take some time for elders to be risen up from among you. But I think its best to operate within like a house church network of geographical area.
The NT model of church structure does seem to be the plurality of elders basicly a shared leadership. But even a plurality of elders can be abused. I think the most modern contrast is Chuck Smith Founder of Calvary Chapel Moses model contrasting it with the board of elders model. I think what happened is Chuck Smith who was in the Pentecostal denomination Four Square that had the plurality of elders structure but they abused that structure. Basicly the elders were trying to control everything from the color of the carpet, paint on the wall and how a leader in the four square should conduct bible studies. Basically Chuck Smith one night in bible study decided to put the chairs in a round circle that encourages more participation and dialogue rather than one person being looked to as the teacher all the time. Well the elders of four square got highly upset with Chuck Smith like who told you you could circle up the chairs? Did you get the approval of the board of elders?
Basicly Chuck Smith was highly irritated. Basicly they wanted to control everything even the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit was restricted and could not move.
SO you can see why Chuck Smith went to the opposite extreme Moses Model because of his experience in the four square, that there has to be someone at the top making the decisions and a vision for the church and not get so involved in how each ministry or bible study operates out of the church that restrains the Holy Spirit from moving. The problem with the Moses model ofcoarse is the Pastor can become abusive. While Chuck Smith was of good character and humble that pulled it off but a successor who replaces him when the Lord calls them home but under the Moses model their successor may not be of such humility and character as his predecessor. So it don't work all the time because it takes alot of humility to operate the church under the Moses model.
BUT even churches that have a plurality of elders like say John McArthur, John Piper etc (I do not approve of their Calvinistic theology) but you can't tell me McArthur and Piper are not calling the shots. So basicly even with some churches model of a plurality of elders they are still operating as the Pastor calls all the shots. We must always remember its not our church its the Lord's church. Jesus Christ is the head not a man lest we risk the danger in creating little mini-pope structures.
Thank you!
The easiest explanation to understand is that the people were ignorant and illiterate. "Priest" usually meant educated; many priests were also trained as physicians -- of those times. Today, as never before in the entire history of humanity, the masses are educated. And we live freer and more abundantly than ever before. And for just 18 years, we have been connected to this Shared, Worldwide Experience with near-instant communication. It is GUARANTEED to Wake THIS Generation Up! The Father know what you need, before you ask.
God bless you in Jesus' Name Amen ✝️
Thank you!
Some of the issues you discuss here can be directed back to each one of us not seeking God and being Spirit led. Many want someone to do this for them. The few that are Spirit led need to have courage to be the salt and light in their church, to the leadership and fellow believers who need to grow as disciples.
What I see is people putting leaders on a pedestal and believe they can do no wrong. I think we need to act like a body and everybody use their gifts. I’ve been treated poorly and nicely at churches. I also see people who won’t let you be involved and want to do all the job for themselves. I am not a believer in Church membership because I don’t see it in the Bible that I have to sign something. I’m already a member of the body because I’m a repented follower of Jesus Christ? we should indeed have people with good moral values being elders.
Speaking of church membership - ruclips.net/video/u7NWCOwj--s/видео.html
Thank you for speaking on this taboo cultural elephant in the Christianity room!
I came to Christ and knew that I was adopted into a global family and the body of Christ.
Wherever and whoever they were,
I knew they were my brothers and sisters.
Then I got involved in churches and I was quickly disillusioned by the application and practice that forms the system of "churches".
It has formed over the centuries out of tradition, immediate necessity, practicality, convenience, ritual, and cultural relevance.
Not actually bad reasons to form churches,
But I immediately noticed that churches are nothing more than;
A country club with a selected "pastor" as their motivational speaker and a handful of CEOs.
There IS a sort of structure laid out in the Epistles:
A bishop/overseer,
and the deacons/deaconesses working as sort of shepherds of the whole congregation throughout the various gatherings of a city or region.
But when you gather, let each one share a hymn or a word, praying and breaking bread together as a communal family of believers.
There's no picture of this corporate structure that we've created.
The real body of Christ, the true brothers and sisters of the Household of Faith -
We are intermingled within the network of these country clubs, actually going into the trenches and bringing the Gospel to the lost, we are the old lady that helps with cooking ministries every month, we are the young men who sign up for mission trips to risky locations, we are the janitor who has faithfully kept your country club functioning, we are the young woman who seeks to care for the youth and share the Gospel and discipleship with the teens, we are everywhere, we ARE the Church.
The church in the letters is framed in household language because we are a spiritual family not a disconnected crowd.
How do you balance the verses you quoted in this video (which I completely agree with) with:
Ephesians 4:11-13 BSB
[11] And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, [13] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
And
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 BSB
[28] And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. [29] Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30] Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? [31] But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.
We are all priests but not all called, gifted and equipped the same.
Notice plural not singular.
It does not say that these people do all of the sharing in the gathering? They help in teaching new believers the ways of the Lord! When the body comes together all have the right to share a hymn psalm, a prophesy , a word.?? Where does it ever show the pastors or elders doing it all?
Using the non-Biblical PASTOR perpetuates two major problems. 1) Provides erroneous job descriptions in the PASTORS head, 2) creates erroneous expectations and job descriptions in the sheep head. If we were to use the 'right' word "shepherd " would provide a much better ex[pectation on both sides.
I agree and I also want to avoid condemning or bashing people who are seeking the Lord and don't understand this.
But we really won't change our thinking much and especially not the culture if we don't change our language. The New Testament rarely mentions pastors. Why don't we change our language in a way that reflects the language of the New Testament?
I agree...our language shapes so much of our views. We have to define our terms and let the BIble do the defining. Appreciate your comment!
so true, its led by elders not pastor centered
Question. Did Jesus talk for an hour when he was preaching?
Probably on some occassions.
And in Acts someone fell asleep and fell out the window because the preaching was so long. But that doesn't mean it has to be that long. Perhaps the shortest homily was when Jesus said, "This Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
The American Senior Pastor is basically modelled on the American CEO
I think that is largely true...thanks for commenting and watching!
Agreed, our modern day concept of church and leadership is indeed distorted. There are few materials addressing the doctrine of Biblical leadership and I found Strauch's books very good. Paul didn’t consider a church to be established until biblical elders could be appointed. Many churches look successful and suddenly crash based on one pastor and we are surprised?
Thanks for your comment. Can you give more info on this conclusion, "Paul didn’t consider a church to be established until biblical elders could be appointed." Not sure how this would be concluded from the Bible but I might not be remembering something.
I can't make an explicit defense for this position but the closest would be Paul addressing Ephesian elders in Acts 20. It is also implied with his letters to the churches and extra biblical accounts. The early church certainly had problems but a plurality of leaders has many advantages. Far too many churches operate on a business model and do not spend much time on spiritual matters. Eliminate the senior pastor and many churches will fall, the sheep scatter.
@charlessudom288 but churches were already churches (which are assemblies of God’s people) when they were told to appoint elders.
Paul (and others) planted several churches, often a mix of Jews (had synagogues) and Gentiles. Obviously he cared about discipleship and wanted these churches to flourish under good leadership. Paul and others established a pattern as directed by the Holy Spirit. It had aspects of the OT leadership but also some new concepts. Paul's letters are evidence of his corporate care for those early churches as he provided oversight.
The Bible is clear on Pastoral leadership. Just read Eph.4:11. Poimen is the Greek word used for pastor. It is the same as bishop=episkope, which is the"overseer" of the local assembly. This is an anointed position chosen by God. What this man is teaching is pure heresy. I have been a pastor/counselor for more than 34 years. The call of God on any pastor is a difficult calling and should never be taken lightly. This man dismisses the office of a pastor as unbiblical, stating that it is "not in the Bible." The use or abuse of the title is a whole different subject, but the office is biblical and made so by God himself. Acts 20; 1 Peter 5; Jeremiah 3:15; 17:16 and 23:1 all mention the title in reference to the call of God as both the preaching of truth and warning against the destruction of the church by preaching devisive messages.
All in all, trust the clear word of God.
You totally missed the point of the video. You might watch it again and try to catch the point. Thanks!
It's called the Presbyterian model.
Lots of churches have a model of shepherding plurality of elders.
I really believe in elders teaching in a more book by book format
Expository is so important! Thanks for leaving a comment Max
I don't think that you are wrong. As a matter of fact, I support your position. Words mean something.
Think of this, at one time "gay" meant happy. Around the 60s, and 70s the word "gay" was changed to mean homosexuality. It is so ingrained into our society that when one uses the word "gay" we immediately think homosexual.
The word 'gay" then provides cover for the sin of homosexuality. We need to take back our words, and don't let them provide a cover for sin.
Words have meaning. There is also the issue of perception and all that is involved in how we perceive what is being communicated but that doesn't negate the fact that words have meaning and they don't just mean whatever we want them to mean.
@@revolutionofordinaries My point is that calling someone a homo, or homosexual verses gay, the stigma is greater with the word homosexual. It makes it easily digestible to say gay.
This applies to any words for that matter
Even the conceptualization of the elders as 'leaders' defers to the military-industrial-political view of 'leading'. The elders are shepherds and servants of their little church gathering, not 'leaders'. The Holy Spirit is our leader! So the whole problem of women 'priests' or 'elders' goes away, and we fall back to Titus 2 with the older men and the older women...
We in the West tend to be so worldly minded, in the sense we assume the church should be run like a business, focused on our view of what success looks like. We have buzz words and concepts, which we never question, to check if they are based on biblical concepts and teaching. I’ve only ever met one person who sat down with a Bible and concordance, to start from scratch, to understand what the Bible teaches about church government. One person, in some 40 years! I agree, biblical usage is so important. For example, many Christians think the word “pastor” appears on every page of the New Testament, and this one role is fundamental. No, the word occurs once, in relation to ‘ministry’, and does not refer to the person ‘in charge’ of a local church. Paul describes himself several times as a “herald” of the gospel. In 40 years, I’ve never heard one sermon, or even one teacher, refer to what being a herald means. We are so imbalanced, and far removed from even a basic understanding of the Bible, I think. We talk about “leaders” and “leadership” continually, yet the Bible never talks in those terms, other than Jesus said not to call any man your leader! The disconnect is staggering.
Here’s an amusing challenge… to be biblical, if a church does go with a ‘pyramid style’ hierarchy of ‘staff’ in paid ministry, then those at the ‘top’ should be paid the least! I wonder how many “senior pastors” would agree to be paid less than a cleaner, or secretary, even though it’s arguably what Jesus taught us. How many would be willing to work with their hands, as Paul did and taught, to support themselves in ministry, and also help support others? It’s a good exercise to think through why this is not the usual pattern. Is it because we think the world’s way is better, we feel more comfortable with it, or we think Jesus didn’t mean what He said…?
That's super convicting Alan! Thank you for sharing.
Right on ! Thank you. Identify the difference between churches built on foundations of corporations, and Christ's Priesthood of Eph 4 Jesus established clearly what His foundation looks like. Corporate administration is always about building corporate assets, not people oriented.
I need to do a video on Eph 4!!! Thank you for the comment and encouragement. Take care Roger!
It's a copy of Catholicism gone wild. The pastor is our version of a priest, the single pastor with no oversight is a result of arrogance and greed for power.
I think that is a valid comparison in many instances. That or even the OT priesthood.
AMEN! Thank you! I am an old man now, but I assure you, based on a lifetime, that there are many of us who believe and minister under the same beliefs as you put forth in this video. Though there are many of us, we are still the small minority. A minority called to enjoy the full spectrum from being silently shunned to openly persecuted by the Church at large. "Enjoy?" Yes, Jesus culminated His description of the Beatitude-journet with rejoicing in persecution and the Apostles lived to experience it with him.
Standing on the truth has a price. A few discover the truth herein, and climb over the fence. Some of those get one foot unto the other side but never take the other foot off the fence. Believe me, that is no way to live. Limping up and down a fence line because of keeping one foot on the fence prevents a person from getting into the field to do the work...and it ends up looking rediculous.
God bless you DT! Thanks for leaving a comment and sharing from your years of experience.
Excellent. It's wonderful to see more and more people being enlightened to the actual truths in the Bible and the reasons behind why God has chosen to orchestrate things the way that He has. I agree that we need to get back to what the Bible actually says but I disagree that the manner in which Christianity is being promoted these days through "church" is a viable option.
The only acceptable manner in which to follow Jesus is the manner in which God Himself has prescribed. God, as well as His ways are perfect, they need no manner of change nor improvement. The only real questions that need to be asked are these: "Where does this originate?" AND "What are the results?"
Anything that does not originate with God and from Him opposes Him and His purposes for His people. One only needs to look at the results of all of men's doings and creations to discover this.
I occasionally talk to individuals and ask pointed questions such as, "What is the church?" Needless to say, we all know how they respond- oh, that's that place on the corner or down the street where people go and worship God etc. or something along those lines. Seeing that this is the average response, "How do these average people come to this conclusion?" I would suggest that it's more than just the definition in the dictionary, it's because that is what the average professing Christian has taught the unbelieving world. That's not just sad that is tragic- because that is the exact opposite of what Jesus says HE WILL BUILD. To claim the church is the body of Christ all the while advertising IT out front and through advertising is hypocrisy. The church IS a building and an organization and that is NOT what Jesus is building. As you know, Jesus is building a spiritual building of living stones wherein He is the head. Just amazing how many people are trying in vain to build it for Him.
It's also important to notice just how people respond when I explain to them the actual meaning of church (ekklesia), and what that actually entails. In many cases it's quite positive as people can identify with community and sharing life together.
I think we need to be patient with the average church goer but those in church leadership positions know they are out of line with the scriptures. I've talked with a few of them and never had a single person offer me ANY scriptural evidence for what they are doing. My Bible is quite clear that there is only ONE mediator between man and God and also what God calls those who attempt to place themselves in such a position. These people don't need mercy but a rebuke as they are the primary reason these falsehoods continue to spread around the globe.
God honors His truth. It is absolutely no surprise that the world is in the awful state we now find ourselves in, when the average professing believer is not only deceived but continues to pursue and promote what God has never endorsed nor supported.
Our words matter a great deal and allowing the Bible to define our terms is very important. Appreciate your substantive comment...thanks for watching Michael.
Should read the epistles of Ignatious. He was discipled by John and was the bishop of the church in Antioch. He talks a lot about bishops, presbyters, and deacons. Emphasis on respecting the bishop, singular, as well as the presbyters and deacons, plural. I don’t see pastors anywhere, but Shepherding is definitely a gift a bishop should have.
That is important info but not as important as the Bible.
@@revolutionofordinaries Of course it is. we can see how the Christians were using the roles during Paul's time. He had just been recently martyred and Ignatius was following his example and instructions on what Paul was referring to in the Bible. People can twist the Bible alone and we see evidence of that everywhere. But when we see how the first church was using that information, sheds a lot more light. I get scripture alone as final authority. But that doesn't mean we can't use other sources that help us understand. Especially when relevant to that time.
@Packhorse-bh8qn I mean that it’s important because it sheds light. I’m sure you use other resources to help you understand scripture, don’t you? Scripture has final authority, but it doesn’t mean we can’t use other sources to help us understand better.
@Packhorse-bh8qn I take it you don’t know who Ignatius was then. He didn’t write anything the Bible doesn’t affirm or anything that contradicts. He was emphatic on what Paul and Peter were teaching. He lived to see Paul and Peter and was discipled by John. That’s about as first church as you can get. Do you not use commentaries, Bible dictionaries, etc. to understand the Bible? How is this any different?
@Packhorse-bh8qn I see bishops, presbytery, and deacons in the Bible. What do you mean? How do you understand it?