Possible solution to TR6 clutch hydraulics?
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2021
- Watch me as I fumble to come up with a better solution for the clutch master cylinder on my Triumph TR6. And listen to me ramble endlessly.
To watch me go into excruciating detail about the car as a whole, see my first video.
• Triumph TR6: my first ...
You do a great job with these videos - please keep them coming! I love your trial-and-error presentation. Knowing what doesn’t work is at least as useful to all us wanna-be’s as what finally works.
Thank you! I've got another one planned, but I don't know when I'll get it finished.
That's great information. Thanks for posting and spending so much time to explain what you were doing.
Thanks for the kind words!
Nice to hear someone who tells it like he experienced it. Thanks for sharing from another wannabe TR6 mechanic .
Thank you for taking the time to post your these videos. I have inherited a TR6 in a house deal and probably would not have went out and looked for one. But now I’m looking forward to trying to restore it as you did. I like that you showed your entire thought process for the clutch fix instead of just saying “ had an idea and this is what I did”. Keep em coming ! 👍👍
Thank you very much!
I just resigned myself to rebuilds of clutch and brake master cylinders annually. Was told by my mechanic that it had something to do with the difference in relative humidity in climates where it doesn.t rain everyday.
Hmmm... Interesting. Almost sounds like he might have been yanking your chain? Maybe?
I love your out of the box thinking! TRW is not what it used to be. I had 2 new ones fail in as many years on my brake MC. Finally chose to have it resleeved by Apple Hydraulics. Keep posting!
Thank you! I've thought about using Apple, too. BTW, I just picked up a Nissan differential on eBay, so when I get around to doing the conversion, I'll be sure to post a video.
When I restored my 69 TR6 I replaced all the clutch hydraulic parts with new ones including a SS line. It's been working fine. Just a thought, I remember seeing an article somewhere that the hole for cross bolt in pivot bar inside the transmission gets worn and the slop causes erratic clutch function.
Yeah, I actually already reworked and reinforced that whole mechanism, but thanks!
Thanks for the info, and keep the videos coming. My TR6’s only hope is the online community that I rely on. Please also provide an update on how you are making out using this set-up.
I think you’ll find that the red plastic piping when it gets hot it expands and then you get that spongy feeling.....the stainless braided hose will cure all that and will last. I fitted braided hoses to my car I built and the run is the entire length of the car as it’s mid engined, hasn’t fail yet in 13 years. Good luck.
Fantastic video! Got my first-ever TR6 (a '70 with twin webers and a fast cam) late summer 2020, and have been going through a similar process. Hope you keep posting - dig the trial-and-error, and keeping the information spreading throughout the community is huge. Just got a little camera setup of my own...may begin contributing some head-meets-wall videos of myself soon!
Thank you. Very rewarding, isn't it? Definitely post videos... the more how-to videos we have out there, the better! Right now I'm thinking of messing with my alignment again using some toe plates. If I do that I'll post another video. And when I get the money saved up, I might tackle a Nissan rear-end conversion... maybe. Fuel injection? Hmm...
I believe that dot 4 is the new name for Castrol LMA Castrol lma was always different then dot 3 . Dot 3 wrecked British cars hydraulic seals by swelling them up . But I think all the recently rebuilt stuff doesn't have the old brit natural rubber seals so maybe dot 3 wouldn't even be a problem nowadays. That seal that was deteriorated in your trw master must have looked like what happened in the 1970's when someone used the wrong fluid.
My TR6 clutch master and slave seals were forever failing and had clutch travel problems etc until a few years ago I fitted a slightly softer than OEM pressure plate, (TR4A spec?) and since then hydraulics reliable, pedal light & clutch smooth.
I bought a conversion kit from TR Remington Spares. It allowed for full hydraulic system. Included a Tilton hydraulic throw out bearing and a Remington fabricated mount. It required some careful grinding of metal but worked beautifully! I did it nearly 30 years ago. Did enormous amount of work on that car but it’s long gone.
I've seen those kits. They look pretty nice, and maybe one day I will... But $1,200... Ouch!
Did you mean Revington?
Don't give up!
Good idea thanks, I will upgrade my parts on my Gt6 and Vitesse
Thanks for this video. I am reviving a TR6 myself, and I will be looking at my clutch system soon. I may duplicate your solution.
I'm glad that my video might be of help!
Would appreciate the Welwood part no for that master cylinder. I have a 6 cyl Triumph 2500S a saloon you never got in the US but it's pretty much a TR6 with a car body on top. Low clutch pedal as usual. Currently in the process of installing a braided line and new TRW slave cylinder. I know the master is tired but they are no longer available. Thanks. Oh and for the motivation.
Thank you... I probably should have included the part number in the video. It looks like it's Wilwood no. 2601304. It's a 3/4 master, but I think other sizes are available.
@@wannabetriumphmechanic3306 Thanks - I'll go searching. I do have a rebuild kit for the original but often as not the bores are oxidised so new would be great. Plus it's such a faff getting to the back of the master, once in, I'd rather put a new one in rather than mess about. Thanks for replying and best wishes from Tasmania, Australia.
Try using dot 5 silicone brake fluid. I use it in my TR- 250 have not changed or rebuilt brake or master cylinder in 15 years.
I may very well do that if I have to replace the system again. From what I've read, it's kind of a PITA to completely evacuate the old stuff.
I have to say, I was pretty skeptical at the beginning of this. That said, I get it. Some of the parts for this car were never great and some of the cheap aftermarket parts available are complete crap. By the end you almost (:)) had me convinced. My only question is if over time this setup will really be more reliable than stock or enough at least to justify the cost.
I hope it works out for you and I am noting this for further thought.
Thanks for sharing.
Fair enough. I've been reaching a point of desperation with this part of the build, so I'm trying just about anything I can think of. Whether the Wilwood is really any better than the TRW, Girling, etc. remains to be seen, but hey... at this point it's worth a shot! At the very least, I had been wanting to get rid of the plastic line, and I think the braided line has been an improvement.
Hey, I feel your pain. One step fwd...but I will say, learning to use a flaring tool isn't that bad. The end's threads stripped on mine and would not thread into my new brake master (old Alfa). So I bought a new fitting, and rented a flaring tool from the autoparts store, and a lenth of line to practice on. Once I felt confident, I cut off the old fitting just above the flare, and re-flared it. Forgetting to put the new fitting on first. Duh. The next time, I put the fitting on backwards. Trials and tribulations, man. I finally got it right, though ;)
BTW I missed how old that TRW part was? It looked new. That was def the seal that disolved. No bueno. It's really hit or miss with aftermarket parts. I use DOT5 silicone brake fluid, as it won't react with seals and it won't take the paint off the car if you spill it or it leaks. It won't work with ABS systems due to the foaming issue DOT5 has, but it's great for older systems. Mines been in since the late 80's and only topped off when components were changed.
Ha! Yeah, I've had lots of moments like that. I considered doing the flaring for a while. I think one of the main reasons I ultimately decided to go with the AN route was that they are supposed to be reusable, whereas there's a higher likelihood of leaks when you reuse flared connections. I remember going through some headaches with the fuel pump lines until I just went ahead and bought new stuff. The ironic thing is that I think I might have a slow leak at one of the couplers now.
Wow! I thought about DOT5. Maybe I should have thought about it more seriously. If I end up replacing everything again, maybe that's what I'll do. As far as the TRW master, it was a pretty fresh part... or at least I bought it recently. I guess I don't really know how long it sat on a shelf!
The AN fittings made sense to me and it looks a lot better than the stock arrangement. Did the stainless flexible line go from the master cylinder clear to the slave without a junction and plastic section? The flexible line would certainly be easier to work with.
The picture on the new slave cylinder box showed the mounting holes going the wrong way, maybe the actual part had the correct holes, I assume it did fit as the original did. Where did you find the new slave cylinder?
Thanks for the comments. No, I didn't use the plastic section. In total, I think I used two thread adapters, an elbow, and the stainless line.
These are 37 degree jic fittings though for hydraulics, 45 degree is appropriate
So it's been about a year now.... How is this modification holding up? Still doing the job?
Something immediately occurred to me, when I saw your video. Often with TRs the hydraulics get blamed when something else happens.
A very common problem with all the TRs is a sheared taper pin at the throw out bearing yoke. The pin is what locks the yoke to the cross shaft in the bell housing. When that pin breaks, it allows the yoke to slip on the cross shaft, causing play that gradually increases as the metal wears. Sometimes the problem is slight, can be adjusted away or just "lived with". But in other cases the slop in the mechanism makes clutch engagement farther and farther from the floor, until it can no longer be fully engaged. It can be a bugger to take apart and repair.
EVERY TR clutch replacement I've ever done has had a broken taper pin. (Not that I have done that many... Maybe 4 or 5 over the years.)
It is possible to replace the clutch and throw out bearing without noticing this problem. The stronger the clutch pressure plate, the more likely the pin will break and introduce an increasing amount of play
Elin Yakov shows an example of the problem and repair over on his Rusty Beauties RUclips channel. I think it was a TR6, too. The only thing I didn't like about his video was how he forced the yoke and shaft apart. That worked in his case, but often does damage to one or another of the parts, meaning more things to buy. My preferred method to get the remainder of the broken pin out is to drill a small hole on in the back of the yoke and use a small punch to push or tap the tip of the pin out.
Once it's apart the usual fix if the yoke and shaft are still in decent shape is to use one of the stronger "hardened" taper pins many of the parts suppliers sell. In my TR4 I backed that up with a second 1/4" grade 8 bolt in a hole drilled through the yoke and shaft, installed off to one side. That uses a nylock nut (the taper pin uses safety wire to prevent loosening),
I have toyed with the idea of going to an annular throw out bearing instead, eliminating the entire cross shaft, the yoke, the taper pin and even the slave cylinder. Haven't gone to that extreme yet though.
BTW, while it's apart, it's a good idea to replace the bronze bushings that the shaft rides in, either side of the bell housing. Early cars (up to TR4?) use a shaft and bushings that are greasable (zerks in either end of the shaft). They use a different bushing, if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure they are interchangeable, if someone wanted to make it greasable on a later car or eliminate the grease joint on an older car (different bushes and shaft... otherwise the yoke, taper pin etc. are the same).
P.S. Another source of slop in the TR clutch mechanism is the two small pegs at the end of the yoke "arms", that ride in the slot in the throw out bearing carrier. If there is a flat spot on them, they or the entire yoke needs to be replaced. Also inspect the hole in the lever on the end of the cross shaft, where the slave cylinder rod attaches. If that hole is "ovalled" with wear, it will add slop in the clutch release. Either replace the cross shaft, or weld it up and redrill the hole.
EDIT: I tracked down Elin's YT video showing the taper pin problem and his repair method. ruclips.net/video/bUd6bGdTqho/видео.html
While looking for that video, I also found this one that does a good job showing the repair and the procedure of adding a 2nd fastener to the yoke, as I tried to describe above... ruclips.net/video/bUd6bGdTqho/видео.html
Fantastic information! I actually went through all the things that you described... I'm even pretty sure I added the second bolt to the cross-shaft in addition to the hardened pin. So far, it's still working relatively well. I remember pulling the gearbox twice because I didn't replace the bronze bushing when I did the clutch, and I ended up with the problem of the input shaft dragging when I tried to shift. Since then I've been in the habit of shifting to second before reverse, but maybe I should try going straight to reverse next time I drive the thing.
Did this make the clutch engagement closer to the floor? Mine doesn’t grab until the pedal is almost all the way up
No, actually... it raised it. It seems the vast majority of complaints about TR6 pedal engagement are about the pedal being to low. If yours doesn't grab until all the way up, could it be that it's time for a new clutch disk? Either that or MAYBE improperly sized master or slave cylinder?
I used the .7 Wilwood master cyl and did not get enough throw on the clutch lever. How much throw did you get with your .75?
I tried to pretty much replicate the early TR6 specs. I remember measuring slave cylinder throw, but I'm not positive how much it moved. Does 12mm sound right? Either way, you should get more movement with the .75. If you still don't get enough throw after making sure the system is completely bled, you may have a broken bolt on the clutch cross shaft. 😬🤞🏻
@@wannabetriumphmechanic3306 Thank you for the quick reply. I suspect the cross shaft issue is at root. I only got about .6" throw and have ordered the Moss cheapo .75". It was working adequately before but the Moss 0.7" started to leak and I thought I'd replace it with the WW in that size. Didn't notice the WW has a 1.25 stroke compared to the Moss 1.375. Will be visiting the cross shaft later on when I install my Toyota trans.
Any more updates? It's drivin' weather now :)
Ha! I've been crazy busy buying a house and moving lately. So far the clutch has been working well, even if the bleeder has been a bit damp when I've checked. Otherwise... I have another project/improvement in mind. I already have a rear end from an Infiniti Q45. Once I get the funds and the time, I plan to do a Good Parts conversion, and I've already experienced minor drama, but I'll save that for my next video. Thanks for asking!
@@wannabetriumphmechanic3306 i'm glad to see that your still engaged with the TR! These are fairly rare and fun to drive I'm finding :)