What most likely happened to the vanished keepers at Flannan Isles Lighthouse (mini-documentary)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- The Flannan Isles Lighthouse Mystery: What most likely happened
What most likely happened to the keepers at Flannan Isles Lighthouse (mini-documentary)
Our merch: my-store-d4ffb...
Support Bad Things on Patreon: / badthingsbad Things: True Crime is a channel with all things true crime and mystery! Subscribe to stay updated on the most interesting true crime cases out there.
⚠️ Copyright Disclaimers
• Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act states: “Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.”
• We use images and content in accordance with the RUclips Fair Use copyright guidelines
#badthings #truecrime #mystery
The sad thing is that if they had all stayed inside they would have survived.
They probably had no warning. They thought they were safe that high above the water.
Pretty sure the Aliens would have gotten them there too! It was either that or the Ghost Ship, none of the other scenarios are plausible...
That's the most interesting thought of all. On the other hand , i've been on the ocean when it's been really bad in the northern Atlantic and I must say it is pretty terrifying at times even with a modern ship, with all of our gauges and so on. I have a little ptsd from it.
Muirhead's hypothesis, or a variant thereof, makes the most sense to me. My own spin on it is that two keepers were outside when "it" happened. Based on modern knowledge, a rogue wave seems very plausible. The third keeper, either seeing the approaching wave OR otherwise perceiving that his teammates were in trouble (shouts for help?), rushed outside (without putting any wet weather gear on) to try and help them. He too was overwhelmed, by that rogue wave, the after effects of it, or even by a following wave.
The first two keepers heading out into a violent storm? That 5 shilling fine might have been preying on Ducat's mind. Then too, there might have been a lull in the storm, enough that they thought it would be OK to go outside for a short while and take care of a few things.
Yup, lots of 'mights' and 'maybes' there, but nothing implausible, I believe.
A sad tragedy. Given the remote and distinctive locale, it is easy to see why many people would look for something more to the story.
Do you know how big of a wave that needed to be???
@@joshcantrell8397 Try Googling 'extreme rogue wave events' some time.
Furthermore, our hypothetical wave wouldn't have to be high enough to overrun the entire island, just have enough oomph to push a cr#pton of water up high on it. It mightn't even have been the wave itself that took the keepers, but the resulting backwash afterwards.
I was at sea for twenty years during which time I saw plenty of rough weather and high seas. It's amazing just how high up cliffs large swells can travel let alone a rogue wave. I'm sure that the weather and sea conditions at the time were the root cause of this tragedy. If the equipment on the landing was not in danger from being overwhelmed why would the keepers need to go near it?. There are many cases of people, particularly inexperienced people, rushing to help those in trouble getting into trouble themselves, often with fatal consequences. Muirhead's hypotheses is to me by far the most plausible explanation.
@@user-lt9py2pu6uI was light foot infantry, but I been on a few ships in my time around similar areas and further (with similar conditions) for training and what not…. I can fully believe that the sea is an absolutely formidable and unruly beast. It’s very very possible that this is the case… anyone can spend a full day at any beach along the UK coast and at some point in the day you’ll notice a wave that makes you think “Wowah that was huge!” So yeah, I agree with you, the dude that was at sea for years. Lol
Most plausible explanation, a rogue wave that caught them all off guard, so tragic.
3 poor souls lost their lives trying to earn money to feeds their families. RIP 💙
Well said 💔
Yes may they rest in peace 🙏❤️🌹
People die on the job every second of every day.
Don't get married
This was the most detailed video I've seen about the tragedy. It was great
I immediately recognised this as Flannen Isle.
We had the poem at school and it has stuck with me almost seventy years later. ❤️
Me too 😊
Me too. Not much on TV for children back then so our imaginations ran wild.
I believe the rogue wave theory. I think the two who had their rain gear were doing routine work at the dock while the other was eating. The one in the lighthouse saw the swell and ran to warn the others. Maybe he got to close and was caught when the wave hit all of them. Maybe the wave hit while he was still higher but he ran to try to rescue one or both of them in the aftermath. Either way, he wasn't able to save them or save himself.
@@VTPSTTU the ocean usually spits back what it takes
Your wife doesn't @@David-tt1rb
Good theory. It is odd no remains turned up.
There was no storm like their log claims. Rogue waves don't require a storm. Wave or not, the storm part is the real culprit & cannot be explained. A rogue wave does't explain why the inside of the lighthouse still had loose things but flipped chairs & half eaten food. None of that would be there if it was smashed by a wave. How can chairs be flipped but bowls of food on a table be left untouched. Also doesn't explain how they disappeared
@@David-tt1rbnot when it is organic. The sea wastes nothing.
The supernatural theories are amusing. Though to me the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. Two went out, there was trouble and the third went out after them. The fact he didn’t have his weather outfit meant he likely left in a hurry which enforces the likelihood something catastrophic happened to the other two and he instinctively rushed out without thinking.
Aliens.
So what happened to the bodies - what the ocean takes it usually spits back - humans have enough fat to ensure buoyancy
@@David-tt1rb I think that the very violent storm carried them out onto the rocks, pummeled them against the jagged rocks (piercing them) and then the were washed out. With their body pierces and ripped open that allowed bodily gasses to escape instead of being captured in the body, that made them less buoyant plus whatever weight from the clothes dragged the bodies under.
It’s possible it happened that way but considering the plethora of evidence presented here I don't know how anyone could not think… mermaid ghosts! 😂✌
@@JadeS-ww7sr
Nah, imho the safest bet would be that the two dudes with super-weird 'staches tired of the third dude's super-SUPER-weird 'stache - killing him off, of course - then fought to the death over who's remaining 'stache was sweeter. (Which was obviously the grunt's on the left, by the way.)
I was in the Navy and the ocean can be a scary place. I have been in storms that looked like the beginning of Gillian’s Island. My ship also lost gyro while going through the Bermuda Triangle which is why I believe magnetic fields screw up navigation systems leading to tragedy. I can totally get behind the rogue wave theory
Hats off to you for your service. I can barely watch those short videos where they have modern military ships or container ships crashing up and down in the Atlantic. I don't think I could do it - I think I would freak out with a big panic attack.
Personally I think each one of the men accidentally tripped over their own absolutely enormous moustaches, knocked themselves cold on the rocks below, whereupon the tide came in and claimed them.
I can get on board with this hypothesis. 🤷🏻♀️
Facts!
I think you may be right! Hahahahahaha
@@carolynjiminez1247 I'm surprised nobody has come up with this explanation before. Haven't they _seen_ that photo?
@@FrankieBlueEyes Facts indeed. That photograph showing the three men channelling their inner walruses should be fact enough.
The simplest explanation is best, very bad weather and sea conditions, the keepers tried to minimise damage, got into trouble, all keepers tried to help and the sea got them all.
If there is one thing that you must always respect, the sea has no mercy and the unimaginable can occur in a flash. Big waves may be rare but they do happen.
I have seen one come from nowhere, rolled in, did no damage but left me unbelieving what I had seen.
The Vanishing (2018 film)
The Vanishing, previously titled Keepers, is a 2018 British psychological thriller drama film directed by Kristoffer Nyholm and written by Celyn Jones and Joe Bone. Based on the 1900 disappearance of the Flannan Isles Lighthouse crew, it stars Gerard Butler, Peter Mullan, and Connor Swindells as three lighthouse keepers whose shift takes a dark turn.
The film premiered at Sitges Film Festival in October 2018, which was followed by a United Kingdom release in March 2019
Probably better than the p.o.s movie with Robert Pattinson and the guy who plays "The Green Goblin" in the Raimi Spiderman movies. I think it was just called "The Lighthouse". I just remember Pattinson jerking off and the movie is shown in black n white and me not liking the movie
was such a shit movie
A good film indeed. The mercury poisoning idea was compelling
There is a famous poem about this happening called "Flannan Isle" by Wilfred Wilson Gibson which hints at a supernatural cause.
Never heard of it. Ill watch it thanks.
They were obviously harvested by aliens for their mustaches.
😂
🤣🤣🤣
Lol, good one
Wow. Took you a long time to come up with that?
Well it's possible, those are some impressive mustaches.
As someone who lives where you can see more land than buildings, it always surprises me that Mother Nature isn't scary enough for most people? People will believe in cryptids but not a personified Mother Nature lol... Whether you are sciencey or whimsical, the forces of nature should be scarier to us all. The weather can take us at any time... whether we are swept out to sea or taken by ice on the roads... It's an unsettling thought,but to me far better than imagining that monsters are eating people, which is absolutely bananas.
Truth is usually stranger than fiction...I'm surprised they didn't accuse the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot.
@@user-gu4gg6pe8t personally I think its arrogant that people assume that everything knowable is known.
I grew up on the Oregon coast in a small logging town .I spent lots of time on the ocean and in the forest.Both can take your life at any time .I totally agree with your statement
Both are infact true
Monsters eat bananas 🍌
A few decades ago an engineer on an Icelandic coast guard ship snapped without any warning and killed an unsuspecting and innocent boy and a deck hand he had no known grudge to at all. Then he ran on deck and threw himself overboard and killed himself. Nobody has any idea why this happened and the engineer had shown no sign of disturbance. It’s a mystery why, but unlike this case, we know how.
Was the engineer sporting a rather over-sized mustache?
Did you ever see a show or read the book named "The Terror"? This reminds me in a weird way about those kinds of strange things that happen in isolated places. And I think the psychology can fit the narrative of one of them going crazy, Although the amount of time, it seems to be a little bit short to freak out, but If you are an assistant and are kind of a replacement temporarily, maybe you haven't had that experience and it would scare you faster if there were strong winds and waves.
It’s pretty clear what happened to them. Not sure why ppl are always so silly starting crazy conspiracy theories. Sometimes, tragedies happen. Poor guys. And their poor families. That would’ve been so devastating.
Somebody actually named a relief vessel Hesperus?
Fun fact, this incident was the source for the Dr Who story Horror of Fang Rock.
*Rogue waves* can reach up to 30 metres (100 feet) high. The supply box on Eilean Mòr was secured approximately 33 metres (110 feet) above sea level, so it is very conceivable that a rouge wave washed the keepers into the sea.
could a rogue wave been of such size as to reach so far up the island that it had moved a stone that weighed a ton ?
Has there been such a wave since then? Seems incredible that such a thing happened only once in a hundred twenty two years
Ocean monitoring equipment has observed and recorded rogue waves on more than one occasion. They could easily do that level of damage. A rogue is basically what happens when a big wave overtakes and absorbs two other waves becoming a massive swell that could easily reach that. It's something we only learned about in the 20th century as ship building technology improved enough for sailors to survive them. Like you people didn't believe they were real until ocean monitoring technology recorded these massive waves that almost seem to come out of nowhere, wreak havoc and just disappear. @@heartland96a
Yea are correct. This is what happened. They proved it
@@Easter10000I’m not sure who the “They” you’re referring to is, or what “proof” they have ; but the Flannan Isle Mystery remains officially unsolved to this day.
Yup. A minor point - a 30m tall wave would have a much higher runup when it reaches land.
This is the most detailed and accurate reporting of the Flannan Isle Lighthouse mystery. So many video on this topic are riddled with false/inaccurate info.
2:27
I always enjoy the mystery and storytelling channels, but I take them with a grain of salt, most of them are for entertainment not education.
@@AyeliaGDoren More mysterious if we aren't told of severe weather in the area ;)
Something happened to one guy on the railing (wave) and the other guy saw this, ran to tell the other who knocked his chair over to run out not bothering to grab the raincoat due to the emergency and then they both tried to get to the first guy and were all swallowed by the waves. Thats what I think happened.
If McArthur had survived I can imagine him being viewed suspiciously by his community for the rest of his days.
No; he's rushed out to help his colleagues having done his sea-boots, but the degree of urgency forbade him from putting on his sou'wester. Maybe one keeper got into an extremely perilous position, close to going into the sea and the other 2 risked life and limb to rescue him. The results that all three were washed into the cauldron! It could be that simple!
2 of the men went down to the docks to secure some rigging, got swept in the water, the 3rd guy saw, went down to help, also got taken by a wave, they all drowned the end. great story.
The explanation at the end seems certainly to be the case. It would be interesting to know what sort of wave height it would have taken to sweep them away. One in a million. Bad luck for sure.
If it twisted the railing then that's at least 200-350 feet above sea level.
The Single most memorable part of the book for me was the description of how remote they were. So remote that the next Land mass is the eastern seaboard of the United States. Somehow I never ever forgot that.
This is absolute nonsense. You have clearly never looked at the island on a map.
@@dansmith7698 no you look on the map and you'll see if you travel outwards. I'm not talking about Scotland or the New Hebrides.
I think the Dr Who serial "Horror at Fang Rock" provides the least likely explanation
Ahh, yes!
This sort of thing used to happen regularly before the time when the Kim dynasty pinned Godzilla down with endless missile attacks from North Korea.
Finally someone with some common sense.
It's pretty obvious when you consider the fact of a 5s. fine being charged against Ducat. Having completed their work for the day and having had their lunch, the three men noticed the approaching storm from the safety of the lighthouse. Principal Ducat and 2nd Assistant Marshall both agreed that they should make sure all of the 'landing equipment' was stored so they went to the East Landing, nothing to report. Same at the West Landing, no concerns other than the worsening weather. But it was whilst they were surveying this area that a huge rogue wave washed over the cliff, smashed the supply box to smithereens and caused dispalcement and subsidence across the area of grass that the two men were now standing on. That part of the cliff collapsed and knocked both men into the water. McArthur who was keeping an eye on them from a window, watched horrified as his two companions were washed into the sea. Racing down to the West Landing with a rope coiled on his arm, he hoped to throw out a line to the two men now floating like corks on the water. Both of them being tossed about like rag-dolls. McArthur's first attempt at throwing out a line fell short, so he made a second attempt but this time he got to close to the edge, just as the next huge wave rolled up the cliff. He too now joined his two companions in the water and there was nobody left on land to rescue any of them and nobody to tell future generation just what happened to them. Yet on dark nights it is said, that three lights are often seen burning in the area of the West Landing, but nobody has ever been found up there.
This is the best and most detailed account I've ever seen. Compliments
2:27 - contemporary ship 🤣
The one man went to help rhe others without his weather clothing and they were all swept away - tragically.
Spot on
@@loulou7963 Thank you - loulou
As long as kitchen was clean 😂
Alternate theory: I think that terrifying beast on McArthur's face killed and ate them all.
After turning on it's owner,...
😆😆😆😆
The fine Ducat incurred previously seems like it's the key to what happened. As the weather worsened he likely realised he couldn't put off any longer making sure the items on the west landing were secure. A second fine would certainly been more substantial, perhaps accompanied by disciplinary action resulting in demotion. Unfortunately, he and Marshall left it half an hour too late. I'd say it was a wave rather than just the wind as MacArthur dashed out as a result of something specific he saw, not something he heard.
Really is no explanation is there. You can guess and surmise and guess again but it’s a real mystery. Strange to see a photograph of ghosts of the past who left us with a real mystery. Magnificent picture of men in a service long gone who were as regimented as the military services. I hope whatever happened you didn’t suffer. Magnificent tashes really are.
This channel has won my heart ♥️
It’s like you’ve read my mind every time I see a new video 👏🏻
If The History Channel has taught me anything it's that Aliens did it 👌
Captain Kirk beaming them out is not an alien
Why does that one guy look like a teenager with a fake mustache?
Muriheads hypothesis seems the most likely of outcomes. I figured what was the likely outcome was Ducat and Marshal went out to secure the equipment on the landing leaving the younger guy at the lighthouse. He was likely watching them from the top of the tower and saw them in distress when a wave likely over taken them and he ran out to try to throw them a line or help where he could but sadly they all where swept off the landing.
Sharknado!
Love when a new Bad Things pops up on the feed!
Same!
None of the theories expain how the railway track was ripped up...🤔
A strong storm surge
my bad.....I was hungry
always an interesting mystery, i think what you said is the most plausible one
Yer fond of me lobster, aint ye
The guy in the middle has 2 mustaches, one covers his mouth and the second is above his eyes. 😳
Good lord. As a Seaman and lighthouse and lightship keeper. There is so much wrong with your video that I don't know where to start; you keep showing a lighthouse with Solar Panels on, which was not possible in those days; and not available in 1900; you then say the ropes were in their proper place, I would never have left ropes strewn around like that. You also show pallet boards, as well as a Stramet board panel, with paperwork which seems to have no bearing on the Island and is not in keeping with the year of the disappearance, 1900 time zone, and the Coloured leafy lane is not on the Island it was taken somewhere else. The bottle on the table, as well as the (what looks to be a Radio, and the furniture are all out of the time zone.
@bazra19 thank you. I rely on comments like yours to better understand the quality of the content of the channel I am watching.
Those are mostly stock pics… obviously…
@@ham456 ok I get it, but in my personal opinion it is positive feedback that will help the channel improve. Why include images that are out of sync with the story? It
causes confusion for those watching. In my opinion if the channel took time to research and give a great narrative like this one, they should have also taken time to have pictures aligned to the time period and story. It's just about quality control. It's not great for the channel. Its irritating for some viewers that may otherwise become faithful followers. They should just post pictures from the period in which the story is situated.
The biggest mystery of this tale is how a photo of some pallets and an old sofa has any relevance to the story!
No huge mystery now. The Flannan Isle damage is what you'd expect from a wave -- the problem was the impossible height, but those investigators were very familiar with what the North Sea in winter.
In Jan 1998: the Draupner platform (with sensors!) was hit by an 84 ft (26m) wave. Feb 2000: British research ship Discovery near Rockall (about 180 miles / 300 km from the Flannan Isles lighthouse) met a 95.5 ft (29m) wave; the train of monster waves continued for 5 days. Apparently due to high winds and wave resonance. Per the "no storm" thing, they report that the highest winds were on Feb 7 but highest waves were on the night of Feb 8-9.
Now we know that none of these are particularly unusual. Monster waves are now seen daily on satellite imagery because NOW we know to look for them.
(HOWEVER, for 2nd choice, would definitely have to go with the mustache theories.)
It was not the North Sea, mmmmmm, The Outer Hebrides, The North atlantic. Ta
I think I know what happened.... This is dispute over a mustache measuring contest gone horribly wrong
The ravine full of trash really ties this video together.
Yes, whose idea was it to intersperse the video with what appears to be a photo of an instance of urban fly tipping?
Died of starvation having to give all their food to feed their growing mustaches.
They were hit by a rogue wave and drowned because of their waterlogged mustaches.
Another great video from my favorite channel.
Thank you Jennifer!
Fascinating story. Supported by available evidence, and therefore most likely the truth. However, 100% certainty is very rare in these types of cases, even if there woud have been a survivor.
Greetings from the Netherlands, T.
Story-telling at its finest! Quite an intriguing tale. Thank you!!!
🌊🌊🌊
Thanks!
They all ended up in the water from a wave ,and their mustaches got waterlogged and dragged them under to their deaths.
FYI: Eilean Mor literally means "big island"
I'm going for a wave took them away and of course I immediately thought of William Dafoe🌊🌊🌊
The wave theory makes the most sense and I feel like that’s more probably than other theories . It’s just weird that it got all 3 men .
One of the very few mysteries where aliens is just as plausible as any other alternative explanation.
Rogue waves are not just plausible, they are almost certainly what happened.
I'm still really confused whether the kitchen was tidy or not. Did they ever find out?
It is with all horror mysteries that
the unexplained has our curiosity with
magnificent thoughts.
Who's to say that aren't still there ?
Wandering in an Altered state, in a ghost like presence. A twilight zone episode.
Say Goodnight, Rod. And sweet dreams.
2:26 is that a ship from 1900? 😂😂
I like to pretend to dissolve glass in powerful acid by dissolving sheets of ice in hot water.
Obviously it was the Patron Saint of the "whodunnit" and other losers, San Andreas. Everything is San Andreas' Fault. 😜
This vid is very well produced and researched while avoiding endorsing reckless speculation- particularly, by rationally rejecting ridiculous paranormal explanations. I appreciate how the vid presents this tragedy in a dignified and appropriate (and entertaining) manner- far more so than a lot of the other vids that sensationalize this event.
Cheers!
(I agree with the hypothesis that a rogue wave/ (katabatic?) wind gust swept the keepers off of the islands headlands. It will remain a mystery. (But I agree with the conclusion- mother nature (and perhaps bad luck) is most likely to blame.
Good vid!
It seems pretty obvious a massive wave hit the island.
I was one of the last three keepers stationed there in the late 60's during the automation and demanning process. I have my own basic theory of what happened but you would only understand it by being there and seeing the topography of the place.
Pretty much all the serious theories that people come up with are absolute nonsense.
Could have been a sharknado. I hear those are terrifying!
the wave theory is the obvious culprit. how this story became such a mystery is a joke.
Totally agree
Up until the Draupner Wave in 1996 confirmed their existence, Rogue Waves of the height of 100 feet were considering fairy tales.
A big alien being that sounds just like a Sky News presenter knocked on their front door, they answered it and it ate them..
Perhaps they just went to faro.
The Legend of the Killer Mustache lives on the island to this day!!!!
Their mustaches did it. They fell in the water and the weight dragged them to the bottom and Nessie fed on their bones….
I mean ; maybe..
..Deep ones, Mustaches and falling boulders, weighing more than ton crashing down, an emergency loud enough for someone to run outside, without weather gear and be caught in the storm as well...
Rogue wave?
That's quite a collection of taches.
Tsunami
I think that too.
If it had been at tsunami, it would’ve come in from the eastern seaboard of the United States across the Atlantic and broken over the Flannan and Scottish isles. There were no reports of high tide or even at tsunami hitting those Shores so I don’t think that theory holds. it will break over any landmass it encounters. Nor were there any reports from Iceland, Norway, or Sweden
@@MsLouisVee OK so that’s not it. The mystery lives on.
Why did you delete my explanation?
My explanation of why it couldn’t be a tsunami was just deleted how come?
Most likely the first 2 got swept into the sea by a freak wave and the third drowned trying to save them.
It was a rogue wave. End of story.
Why is there a photograph of a vacant lot, filled with modern wood pallets, old 1980s sectional sofas, garbage and the steel cyclone fence in some of the parts of the video? It’s really weird.
Having witnessed 100 foot waves on an oil platform , I can assure folk that if one hit and island , the water would travel twice that height with ease before dissipating , these guys were washed away .
McArthur actually had 3 children if you count that moustache...
When you've eliminated the imossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth
"Was is a sea monster or ghost ship? 😅😅😂 LOL definitely a most common threat, in austraila we see them pass by my beach front home all the time as i sip my morning coffee. Makes more sense than accident by drowning in a storm after slipping on an algea covered rock in sheer darkness.
The weather was said to be fair, the words in the logbook sound odd, something happened, maybe a fight, one was killed and panicked and killed the other, then himself, in the sea they went, one of them was psychologically unwell to say the least.
I think they just got hammered ass drunk and tried to surf the big storm waves
"A sea monster or a ghost ship"? Seriously?
I think if you have a mustache that big, you get your own zip code.
😂
Love this channel
Pls share the Poem !!!! looking for that for years, who knows it ???? "three men dead" were the last words of the poem.("who dream on 3 men dead")
Flannan Isle. Wilfrid Wilson Gibson
THANKYOU ❤❤❤❤❤@@voutsider190
@@voutsider190 THNX 🙂🙂🙂🙂❤
I think this is the most plausible explanation. The men obviously left in a hurry to complete a very important task and unfortunately lost their lives in the process. 🙏
Wow that was a ton of ads to sit through to hear you repeat the existing theory was probably correct.
Interesting story. I feel it is weather related that they disappeared. Either a wave, or they slipped and fell in. ❤😊
old cases are so fascinating...
Rip poor brave souls
I think their moustaches took over the Island they had already all but conquered the 3's faces at time of photo
The Marie Celeste Season 2
Went skinny diping
It's probably a chain reaction of strange events 🤔 with nobody else to help they were all doomed. Doomed, I tell ya
I think it was a case of one crewman getting in trouble, and the others tried to save him. I honestly have zero explanation for the diary entries, though. How do you explain a crewman describing a gale force storm that no one on land had any knowledge of? That's the part that creeps me out.
he said the diary parts were faked
The only logical answer is... Sirens
In other videos about that case I heard that no one in the vicinity of the Flannan Isles experienced bad weather. Captains of ships passing the Isles at the time in question claimed wear her was fine, calm sea, sunshine....
What to think about that?
Thank you.
Isn't it amazing that even over 100 years ago there were people around who had no formal training who thought they knew better than the experts seems some things never change.