Great message, but I do have to disagree with you a bit. I think it is someone's fault. I think it is the fault of the person who makes the untrue claims that allow it to snowball in the first place and, yes, those who accept it without critical thought. There is, after all, no substitute for personal responsibility. Someone once said that if you were to push a boulder off a bluff with houses below you can't blame gravity for the resulting destruction.
Hubris runs quite high among many photographers simply because they believe they're "artists" and ... after all, artists know "everything." LOL - I speak from experience, having worked among such people in the industry. REAL photographers learned the craft long before the digital age. These days, photographer constantly attempt to fix their f**k up jobs with Photoshop and a host of other programs, but it hardly matters, because shit cannot be fixed. If your portrait or wedding photographer, for example, has not been in business for long, and has very few samples of professional work to show you, then ... Then be ultra suspicious. Some of these imbeciles of cour$e charge you a fortune, and many of them manage to fortunately find customers of the same narcissistic personality type. One hand for one glove. It typically fits, and most often, if two compatible narcissists encounter each other, then they're in heaven. So the customer pays $15,000 for photography, and probably $75,000 for the entire wedding ... and then they get divorced 18 months later. Happy photographer - semi happy customer.
@@Anon54387 Not so fast if you read the Dunning kruger effect you will see that the person who suffers from it with a negative critic think the critic is actually wrong.
I know a very good photographer that has been around for decades. She quit several years ago when the iPhone syndrome got going. No one wanted to get really good images because their friends could "shoot the same thing" on an iPhone or similar. We are so inundated with mundane and redundant images I think we have lost our imagination and drive for something special.
Then again a small phone can be great for documentary work in disarming subjects. Stacy Kranitz shoots largely on a phone and her work in Appalcahia is some of the best I've seen. A good photograph is still a good photograph as well. I don't worry too much any more about what others think about what's good, it's the good opinion of those I respect that makes me feel I've taken something good. Especially those who aren't afraid to call me out when they think I've taken something bad!
And electronics engineers don't make what they did relative to other professions between the 1960s and now. Things change. Ultimately, photography isn't necessary the way food is. A former co-worker of mine that started doing product photography doesn't seem to understand this when he laments lack of work. I love photography, it is great fun for me as a hobby. I would never consider doing it for a living.
I had a similar conversation with a photographer back in 2005 long before camera phones were in anyway decent but he hated people taking pictures of his poses. He seemed to not really understand the difference in quality and put his poses as his work not his final images. I suspect he wasn't a very good photographer despite doing weddings for over 20 years at the time. 😂
As a long term photography veteran of at least 15 minutes, I feel qualified to make deep swinging judgements with absolute confidence. Anything else would be abject cowardice.
Im a professional photographer and have been for 23 years. I never talk badly about other photographers for two reasons: 1. Art is subjective and 2. Being a photographer is HARD. I respect anyone with the courage to do it.
@@ared18t I suppose it's not as physically laborious as , say, construction or being a soldier in combat... But, it is very difficult to be a photographer especially at the top levels. But, feel free to disagree.
Part of the effect is due to the fact that when you know very little, anything you learn increases your overall knowledge by a huge percentage. To you, it seems you know a lot when in fact you only know a lot when compared to what you used to know.
There is always more to learn. The basics like aperture, shutter speed and iso didnt take long for me to learn but I still struggle with composition and color. Last week I went to my friends concert and did some shots. My first time doing anything like it and its insane how much stuff you have to think about. Most images had something cut off in the background or were framed badly or didnt have good connection with the artist. I had to take lots of test shots. Good thing it was just a casual opportunity and nothing professional expected of me.
@@Xirpzy This is where I am at the beginning, at the bottom of the curve, I learn one new thing by trial with my camera, and as a result, 10 new things to learn suddenly pop up...
Theres another important distinction here - photography for the sake of it and photography as a profession. It's totally fine to shoot whatever you want however you like, but just know that there may be no money in it. This is the reason I knew I was bound to be a hobbyist as soon as I picked up a camera; it's self-expression for me, and I'm simply not good enough to mold to a commercial standard. And of course, my favorite photographs, the ones that are layered with meaning and possible interpretations, are the ones that get the least traction online. Kitsch sunset pictures on the other hand? Sheesh
I was going go say something similar. There is also that some people might be fairly good artists but yet making no real money. I bet most people buying camera aren't even looking to make it a profession, even if they google up how professionals work. However, every single one of us is probably hoping to be a great artist 😂 Once it wears off, some of us might even create something that also other people like, not just our partner or parents.
As a photographer if you're not constantly questioning yourself and looking at the work of others and wondering as to the guts, gumption and graft that got them that moment then you're not going to get much better. I think I now know enough to know how much I don't know.
I understand the point about popularity not being equivalent to knowledge… as to the rest of the video, photography is an art form which in turn makes it subjective. Not really anyone’s place to say what is or isn’t good
This has to be hands down the best photography business video I have ever seen! - side note about "model photographer" I live in LA and see a lot of them, all broke claiming to be all that. along those lines I offer models free digitals, measurement, agency shots all for free. In this day and age it makes no sense to charge a model for those basic services. granted it takes time and effort, but I have my own studio and it keeps me shooting and networking of which pays off in the end.
Man, I feel this to the core, Scott. You’ve said it SO well. You’re proof that audience size and knowledge do not correlate directly. And have confirmed my frustration with the comments section is okay 😂 The photography world needs this massively
I just came across this video, subscribed straight away. I am a Professional photographer (I have a BA Hons in Photography, Video and Digital Imaging, although photography is not my only job right now in the company) and so much of this video makes so much sense. I work out of a small studio (which is part of a much larger performing arts based business and shop). I honestly think watching your video has made me re-open my eyes too, thank you
In my 40 years of studying, delivering, teaching and researching occupational learning and education, one model (similar to Dunning-Kruger) I have found to hold true is the four stages of learning or "unconcious incompetence" model. Put simply, it states that we go through four stages in the development of a skill such as photography: 1. unconcious incompetence - you don't realize that you don't know what you are doing even though you might think that you do; 2. concious incompetence - you realise you don't know what you are doing, start to spot mistakes and take action to correct and learn from them; 3. concious competence - you know what you are doing but still have to think about it; 4. unconcious competence - the skill has become 'second nature' and can be performed at the same time as or to support other skills. It amazes me just how many people I see, especially on RUclips, who live perpetually in the unconcious incompetence space but put themselves forward as experts and fonts of all knowledge. As the saying goes "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
This was an enjoyable watch. I got into photography by accident. I studied a bit of film production, but while studying, I would look for casual photo jobs. My tutor told me to do as much outside work as possible and forget about coming into college. That opened a whole world for me. I work as a press photographer nowadays for a major media group in my country. Everyday is a challenge. I meet 'photographers' with degrees etc that have never done a days work in their chosen field, because they lack experience, but seriously suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. Learn as much working as you can out of your comfort zone. You will get days where it all goes wrong and you want to quit, but those are the days you learn the most.
You mentioned you worked as press photographer. Did you work for a newspaper or some publishing medium? Years ago, in the 1970s and 80s, I worked in the public affairs division in the USAF. Great work. You make a great point about getting out in the field and just work. All the experience I enjoyed made me a good (not going to gloat and say I was great), photographer. Working in the news medium is the best. I got to take photos for the base newspaper of our men and women working anywhere from in the office to maintaining fighter aircraft. Oooo, that was fun running around the flightline snapping pictures of all sorts of aircraft. Before embarking on my job in public affairs I attended the Defense Information School to learn the techniques. That really helped. Learning photography in the news world exposes one to a myriad of situations where you fight to get THE photo for the front page. Even today, photos of newsworthy events are the place for maximum excitement.
@@bondgabebond4907 I work for a newspaper group, which also has a good online presence. I've had two front pages this week. Work is very varied. I've had protests outside parliament to photographing a chef who is featured on Netflix this week. I certainly don't claim to be the best photographer out there, it is all about learning new skills and trying to push boundaries and be creative. Some days, it is hard work trying to get a good shot, just because the opportunities just don't exist. Other days, something major happens, the pressure is high and you get a rush knowing you have achieved something that most people never will get the chance to do. I've flown across the country in a defence force plane with the PM, but I've also had days where I have struggled to photograph a cat 😁
Two words: so true. I constantly see this effect in my line of work and it is highly frustrating. I find this is especially an issue in younger people and business people in general. Thanks for these excellent videos!
That's exactly what I feel right now. Got into portrait photography a year ago and after doing 2 or 3 sessions I was like hey thats pretty good. Now a year later whenever I look at those photos I can't comprehend how bad those were. Now I know it's a really long way to getting good and I'll probably never be as good as I'd wish to be
I'm a photographer and I'm trying to learn something new every day. What I've noticed about photographers is the majority of them think there way is the best way. Photography is an art and we all have our different styles of shooting there is no right or wrong way, no bad or good photographer (When it comes to shooting styles) it is just about finding the clients that like your style of work.
Photography stopped being an art decades ago. If you get into photography, as an artist or in other words; with the mindset of creating art, thinking you will actually make money and have your career succeed, you are just fooling yourself. Art does not sell nowadays. Nobody nowadays cares about art. People nowadays just want your service for their business, for their portfolio, for their website, their products, their events, their weddings or whatever else. They don't want art, they want your service. Photography nowadays, is just simply a service that you sell. If you think you will be able to sell art in this day and age, you need to get back down to Earth ASAP, because you will lose LOTS of time and LOTS of money chasing something that won't ever happen.
@@nogerboher5266 personally, I believe that honing your craft in whatever you want is a very nice thing, it can be really fulfilling. maybe, one day you’ll be famous enough to sell your art. Ive seen many photographers that have phenomenal photos that I would buy a print in a heartbeat, if they had some, to put on my wall… but in order to make a living off of photography, yes you have to hone your craft around a product, or something else to make it a service. That being said I think @our trio meant that some people will find their own visually pleasing ways to market themselves and their service in order to make a living off of photography. Many artists have their different ways of doing that, and some sell better than others. Like the photos in the video, there are some very minimal, clean photos of coke bottles and their brand colors. A big corporation like cocacola would probably be into that, because they dont want tacky photos on their billboards wasting them money. Some people will be better at making coke photos. On the other hand you could have a small business that thinks your style of photos suits their image very well, and you could end up a long term partner, in hopes that the company grows.
@@kiwimike2330 The thing is, people who get featured in art galleries, get photographer of the year awards, art museums, so on and so forth, they are a very, very tiny minority of all photographers around the world. You're talking about it like it's a common thing and a stable way of earning stable income, for all photographers around the world... It's not. Not even close. You're talking about 0.01% of photographers worldwide, highly likely even less than 0.01%, that get their work featured in an art gallery, art museum or similar - and out of those 0.01% that do get lucky enough, 80% don't see a single penny from their work being featured in a museum or any art gallery anywhere.
I think I get your point and it's worth gold. We have many puppies living a dream life. I know who you're talking about and I think you've given some great advice. Congratulations and thank you.
This advice is so good and applicable to almost any industry. Chances are, your target customers aren’t the other professionals in your field. When we try to impress our colleagues, we often entirely miss the market.
That's why I like this channel, it's so refreshing to listen to someone who has the experience because they learned their craft the hard way, and not from the so called experts who think they know everything because they saw it on RUclips.
Wow! As a self-made beginner "product photography student" this is very enlightening, thank you. I will keep options open, viewing my learning process as a door to discovering new paths that might lead to other niches.
One of the best and most reall photography/industry videos I have seen in quite sometime....all of the old model and glam photographers basically perfected their craft to a point they feel confident so they start marking themselves to teach photography and just hold workshops.
I work as a comms manager and there's a massive thing where as soon as you start taking team pics with an f1.2 etc, all your teammates start telling you you're amazing at photography. Comms can be a cliche-ridden environment, and it seems it's especially undemanding when it comes to being impressed by simple photos.
Bravo. Same thing happens in craftsmanship - its amazing to see the humility common to the real experts. A brave topic to peel open, but an important one. Loved it.
Totally fell victim to Dunning-Kruger phenomena. Applied for a graphic design role and got an interview. Showed them my portfolio and the interviewer told me that he can see my skills, but there's nothing applicable for the role or that he would need. My world sunk. But I learnt an extremely valuable lesson. I'm shifting to Photography because it's something I enjoy more. I'm putting hours outside of work to build a respectable showcase of what I can do in my field of interest, even if it means working for free. The AOP advice is really valuable, thank you for sharing your thoughts 🙏 sometimes we need someone to tell us the harsh truth.
Just because a job refused you doesnt mean you are not good of the other way around. If they said they can see your skill means you are not bad. If a portret photographer aplies for a real estate job he probably wont get it either.
Love this video for so many reasons. Mostly for the hard truth bits. Spent so much time chasing all the things I thought would make me a living. This last couple of years I've come to realise I have all the gear I need, so I've stopped watching gear videos. I've been trying to say I do it all just in case I catch a fish, now I'm just doing what I love. Im so much happier now that I realise I'm never going to be another you with my work, but what I do I love and makes me happy. It was a huge relief actually, rather than a disappointment.
I’ve been at this since the mid 70s as a hobby and love it but do understand just like any and everything in life there is always so much more to learn. I just started at this late stage in life to learn an instrument and am loving all the information.
I've been a "freelance" photographer for some time now, and I always wanted to call myself a "professional" but I always hesitate at that because like you stated, most of us just shoot models or people who think they want to be models for instagram, and hell that does NOT pay the bills, not by a long shot. It doesn't even pay, like ever. My one job that I got paid for was for a wedding, and damn that was a ton of work. I've been frustrated with photography for like a year now because I've been stuck, not knowing what I could do to actually get paid for doing what I enjoy. And just as you said, its not gonna happen, at least not by just shooting people here and there. I see even some photographers offering "business courses" which I'm starting to think is their very own pyramid scheme, because they rarely tell you what to even do with your photos when you learn how to shoot, who do you sell them to or how to market yourself to start to sell your photography. It seems that some of these photographers primarily make their living off selling training courses, not by selling their photography. You're the first in a long line of photographers on youtube that actually gave me even a breadcrumb of a starting point. An agent. SImple as that, though probably not that simple but at least its a first step. I've been looking for a first step for so long, that I've got myself lost. Thank you for putting me on track again!
Very true! I’ve encountered a handful of videographers/photographers offering courses on how to work yourself up to getting 10k per month in retainer costs with brands The photographers in question DONT have any actual credible work to show for their claims. Maybe that’s a form of Dunning Kruger on my part but I simply can’t bring myself to taking advice from no-so-good photographers or photographers with ZERO work that would warrant getting any tips or (paid) mentorship
I appreciate your perspective and knowledge on this subject. I never wanted to maintain a bias for my own work, personally. I have a hard time taking compliments for basic event photos when I know I have more to put my mind toward than anyone sees, but have seen little hints of over the years. I know what I want out of my work, versus what everyone expects. I think to be a growing artist in general, you have to know your expectations of yourself, but they always have to be higher than where people place you and you have to be working toward that in tandem. My problem is a lot of people think my photography is great. I hate it... I am en event photographer (festivals, concerts & parties mostly)... I don't consider it an art or a career path at all, but I do consider it mildly creative and a way to have fun and earn some money at the sacrifice of more personal time with friends outside of said events. A lot of it is right place right time and it's taught me a lot about lighting, placement and I have become a control freak within my work, with still plenty I know I need to learn. It is not something I want to make a full time living at anymore, and I did for a while. It's a lot of work for too little pay for what I've put into it myself and I've been basically cornered into doing a lot of these jobs in the industry, because it's what's most readily available here, in a small city with a pension for alcohol consumption, which leads people to other things. I have found myself a bit lost in my direction of where I want to go. It's a tough position to be in, because where does one go when they've built themselves too far into a corner where people expect them to stay? I feel like I have to make a drastic, sudden change that no one is expecting. One thing I can say for being an event photographer is that I've built the trust of the community, thankfully and because of that, people do want to work with me. That is great and all, but I, for the most part, don't want to work with people just looking for a shoot for no reason, where I don't know what I'm even marketing... I would want to make print concept work, if anything. I want to feel like I'm fulfilling my purpose for being a photographer now. I would consider myself great in the event realm, but I know I need practice otherwise, but I know my lighting based on the way I do events. I'm definitely entering my phase of, "what do I do from here?" I have some opportunities, but they aren't exactly directly in the photography realm. I may be entering the videography field with another business more and more, which may be what saves me oddly enough. I love my community and the support, but I don't think I'm going to get any better as a photographer and especially a business minded photographer until I pull further and further away from events. It taught me all I know and it put me at an advantage to enter into other realms. It's a tough move though, because there's a lot of waiting and patience involved right now, but in the meantime, I want to jump into other places with photography and break the stigma and a bit of a curse. BTW, I feel the same about "model photographers". There's no cohesiveness to most of their work, they're largely not actually passionate about photography and I've even had one admit to me at a shoot I was a model's chaperone/assistant for that he only does it to look at and be around pretty girls. He's a wifeless 50+ y/o man. Never really cared to be a better photographer or even editor than he was and it shows all these years later. Themes are lame/tired and sometimes downright confusing when it comes to a pose, a prop and anything else that doesn't seem to fit the scene. The women photographers where I live I have noticed almost all have amazing work and put most of the creeps to shame, but creeps always gonna creep! Thanks for keeping it real about this industry!
"But if I show you how to do a 57 light setup" I totally get that. And I was very much into that to start with. Watching Seth Miranda use 10 speed lights to light a shot was super cool. And he really does know his stuff. But now I watch him still and I watch a guy like Ab Sesay who does those videos some people would find boring. Like testing 50 different types of diffusion. Or going through what's the best softbox. Or 15+ different types of light stands. Those are the videos and information that interests me now that I'm passed that initial Dunning Kruger effect. And realizing how much about everything else in photography I don't know. And I like videos like these with real life philosophy and insight. Thank you Scott. Keep this up if you can. I appreciate it.
Ngl this video was very eye opening, I'm coming to the end of a commercial photography degree but have a rather 'internet' way of shooting still. I'm definitely going to follow your aop advice, I love portrait/lifestyle but need to make sure it can be commercial 🤔 great video and I hope many more people see it, ty
Ouch! For all the hard reality hits on your points. When we were creating photographs back in the 1980s via the struggle of film - my peers looked back to the masters of light like Cyclops, Avedon, and Penn. (but at least some of us could be proud to improve our darkroom work over time). I am also shocked by what I thought were good pic.s I took; but yes it is micro improvements we struggle to get better at doing this craft. Great points all, thanks!
This is a very complex topic, because you need to define "good" and "bad". What does that mean. I know of many okay photographers that make a great living because they are good marketers or great at running a business. They get their photos, throw on a sepia LUT and boom get paid. Yes they are a "good photographer" because they have successfully monetized their skill. So what do you use as a measure? I don't know. You can work so hard to be technically good, but if no one buys or employees you are you good or bad? I think this to be a very difficult topic because for the client what is good is perception. So how do you measure this?
I love photography deeply but would never try to make a living from it. Fair play to you for making it pay. Every time I start to think that I'm a great photographer I open a Salgado book.
Facts. When I started photography over 30 years ago, I worked as an assistant for a commercial photographer. What I saw him create was the standard. As well as the great imagery I would see in magazines. There was also a book called The Black Book. This was a promo book filled with the work of working photographers that would go out to art directors, ad agencies, and other photo buyers and creatives.
You had me at Donning Kruger! Im not even a photographer, I´m a small business owner. This phenomenon occurs in every profession, Im afraid. That´s why I subscibed. I´m sure you can teach me many useful things. Thank you!
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Ilove the dunning kruger effect :) because it never stops and that is kinda cool. You can not knwo how competent you are because you would need more knowledge that you actually have to accurately answer this. For me this is the absolute guide to be humble, easy to work with, accept advices and it keeps you in the state of wanting to learn more
Another great video full of sound advice. I think if you look at your work in six months time and nothing has changed then you really aren't progressing. Learning is a life long skill.
I want say thank you for helping generalizing the idea of the Dunning Kruger Effect for yet another professional field. As a hobbyist photographer and a professional in other fields, I think that ignorance is a terrible blind spot for all of us and appreciate any chance to be reminded of that fact. There are never enough opportunities to remain humble in life. So, once again, thank you for sharing this concept with respect to photography. The constant reminder of a possibility of ignorance is worthwhile, keeps our ego's modest, and our minds curious for new knowledge.
I love this video there isn't enough people willing to share these kind of tips or experiences. I currently do sports photography that's is mostly wrestling focused with the occasional promotion shoots. I originally studied to do media in general and somehow found myself doing this type of photography when it wasn't my main focus. I have learned about what stuff I either thought I knew and like yourself found out I I know anything but with progression I am quickly adapting. The best advice I've learned from doing this is that you might take 100 pictures but only 10 of them may be good enough to use. The more pictures you take the more the chances of a good picture increases along with the knowledge of knowing what's important and what you can maybe leave out at the time. One thing I will always tell people who ask me how to work In this type of work or environment is always be willing to learn. Some people know ways you don't and vice versa so never be afraid to ask for advice and try out new techniques when you can.
5:22 Consider how many cameras exist and how many mf'ers actually get paid to use them (the number is still WAYYYY too high) and this is true for the vast majority of people who claim to be photographers. "Yeah. That's not a job." Previous to that mark in the video, tho, I would advise you that what people think is great is subjective. Period. Popular doesn't equal good necessarily, but good (subjective) doesn't necessarily equal successful, either. Passion is no substitute for competency.
If other people are happy with their photography and enjoy their own photographs what is point of dragging them? And if someone wants to carve a niche with models or restaurants, what difference does it make to anyone else. They will succeed or they won't. I don't see how butting into their lives to tell them they're going to fail -- whatever that means -- helps anyone.
This is so true! I've worked in pro studios for over a decade and I am now a self-employed photo-retoucher (amongst things). In the studio it was the non-"sexy" things that payed the bills.
I actually hate your videos! Because you actually tell the truth and give good advice. You tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. Keep up the good work. Ps . The first part of the sentence was being sarcastic. Keep the educational videos coming
I hear what you are saying. 12 years since I first picked up a camera although I'm a software dev, not a pro. I'm still learning even now. Everyone has their path and they have to find it but the internet can mislead people. It literally creates people who want to be an influencer as a job. That is mind boggling to me.
That’s the great subjectivity of art. There are mediocre photographers who make a living and there are amazing photographers that haven’t made a cent. The photos I like to take and the photos I make money with are two wildly different genres.
With the clarification at the end of the video it makes more sense, but it's really weird how much you equate being good with being profitable. Left me feeling very mislead. They're obviously two completely separate things, unless you're working with a severely mangled definition of "good"
I've accepted that I will always fall victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect so I've simply surrendered to it and do my best to recognize that I always have something to learn. Even so, when it comes to art, photography, etc, I just do what I personally like. If I see someone doing something I really like, I try to emulate that. It's ultimately very selfish but I just stick to the things that I personally find appealing, regardless of if it's "right" or "wrong." However, I'm also not a professional so I suppose I can afford to have this sort of carefree attitude lol. In the end, I will say this, perhaps in contrast to this video, if you know the basics of whatever field you are in and are doing your best to keep that kind of stuff in mind, you are already head and shoulders above many others, especially people like me who just do whatever. If you actually put in the time and effort, you are on your way to making good shit. Just don't get arrogant.
to me, i love the idea of not knowing everything. its the experience of learning and trying to perfect the art. I love knowing that I am gonna learn more and try new things. its amazing to me.
I understand and agree mostly with what you say about the lack of career path and commercial viability e.g. for "model photographers". But doesn't the same apply for (almost) all street photographers? I mean, who will ever book anyone to take candid pictures of strangers/pedestrians, mostly black & white and usually terribly boring? I strongly assume they all don't have an agent and/or a real industry, either. I think there were many still life painters over the last centuries, and I assume almost none of them were painting strawberries in order to enhance the numbers & figures of the national strawberry market of their time and country... I think there are photographers who just shoot beautiful people and maybe make a little money with prints or books, and there are sports, cars, architectural photographers who make a living on their camera without having an agent... In my previous appartement I had a (huge) 2000$ photograph on my wall which I considered worth every penny, and I do think that photographer did not have "an agent in the industry", either... Just my two cents...
I can't help but agree and disagree. I am a working photographer with professional work Billboard work up at JFK international and have just come back from Ukraine working as a photo journalist. The only way I've been able to do so much with my work in a relatively short amount of time is by sticking to my guns and doing things my way. Shooting everything the same as I would for personal projects, styling it as my own, I mean the whole kit and caboodle. I have specialized into working almost entirely for Distilleries and Breweries. It's been more difficult sure but I've gotten farther ahead in my career then if I'd try and be everyone else by making myself "Marketable". I do fully agree about the the DK effect. That hits every photographer at some point and can follow them forever. As mentioned above though, these sub categories can work out from time to time. It's easier than ever for anyone to claim to be a photographer and that can hurt actual working photographers without a doubt. I am reminded of the works of Rembrandt and the artists today who spend their entire life training to recreate Rembrandts look to a T. Arguably that takes far more technical know how and mastery of their craft - However history doesn't remember those who copy but those who innovate. Just as you know Rembrandt and not the artist spending years to copy his works.
This video confirms my belief in remaining humble, and that one should always be learning and experimenting. I went to film school, but music is my native craft. I can correlate the arts and have great and accurate discussions lol, but the hands on skillset is too be acquired. Cuzzo complains that I don't shoot enough, and he may be right. However, his shots and vids are very lacking... I keep stressing the importance of LEARNING the craft, and all of its idiosyncrasies. Great video
you present your matterial very well. after listening to your u-tubes, you've helped me slide by that (ego) graph and realize that i will NEVER be a profess photographer. which leaves me with one option.. the 'Joy' of photography
holy shit, at first when I heard about dunning krueger effect i thought it will be a waste of time, but this is actually a video that every photographer should see
I don't for a second think I'm good. And I am acutely aware of how new I am to photography. But, this video has me second guessing every photo I love. How do you get past that and know what you are doing that is right?
a little disconnected but I think most of your points are right. will say don't need 6 minutes of your backstory after 3 minutes of saying people don't get what's good. Opinions are opinions btw, and a point is needed that what you think is good is what you should be taking pictures of. As a professional take what is needed, but in terms of what you call "good" and what you like you can't make a video on what that is. You can help people make their good photos have better lighting, but you can't change what they think good photos are. Parents don't need f1.4 full frame photos of their children out back playing on the swingset to look at in a photo book to cry at, the 35mm disposable camera they took 3 months to use and got developed at CVS may just do that trick for them.
A friend once told me the fastest way to make money with a camera, is to sell it. I think too many people have thoughts of grandeur. They want to go and pick up a camera and take great pictures. But not put in any of the work to make great pictures.
"If I show you what actually gets me paid, I get no views." That's how I feel when I start talking to people who see a lot of my concert photography and think that's all I do. That's the FUN stuff, the stuff that doesn't pay, many times at least. But I do make some money in the music photo biz. It has led to bigger opportunities, and so I can't totally knock it, but it takes a LONG time to get your foot in that door. The trade off is I get into big name shows, and I get a photo pass for the memory book, and the photos for the memory book and a presence online, and of course the trade off is an article or photos for the show.
On point. Im a full time photographer as well and your are so right. Its funny, because my girlfriends aunt once asked me: "Im following your Instagram and I really dont know how you are making a living out of that few images of actors and actresses". And I told her, that I am making my money with shooting advertising, high end retouching international campaigns and other stuff. Nothing I really show on Instagram. The Images of Actors are just working as a advertising for my photography business. And because of my Retouching backround (made huge stuff for every big brand out there) Im so tired of Photographers who are teaching, for example, "beauty" retouching without working a single time for a real beauty client in the real world... :D
Hey a bit off-topic here but I got in my 5D Mark 2 and I have a Canon 17-40 L series lens what should be the next choice the 24 to 105 or a prime 100 mm lens? Well and of course learning to use the camera would be nice too LOL 😆
This is such a good video. and it's very true that you may know one perspective or side of the industry but there are other sides you haven't seen. I have worked as a photog for the last 10 years of my life. I do both Video and Photo in news to local commercials to now the 1 or 3 photographers in a huge multi million dollar company. However on the side I'm trying to do some freelance stuff. Weddings, graduation photos, family shoots. and I am having the hardest time in the world getting it off the ground. It's a side of the industry I have never seen.
I guess you could say I do "model" photography. But I thought it was simply portrait photography? Sometimes it would have an editorial feel. Anyway indo it for the art not the money. I make my money elsewhere. I'm a new photographer but a longtime artist, so I can say that I think it's important to keep the art and the business separate. If a client isn't buying their photos, if they're doing it for art, who cares? It'd still legitimate. Butnof it's commercial, if there's a business client that has a need you fill, then that's a way to make a living. You don't care about the art you care about the money and providing a service. That's fine too. Don't get them confused.
I think people who do it for vanity are more likely to be egocentric about their photography. People who do it because they enjoy it are more likely to be good at it
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
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Great message, but I do have to disagree with you a bit. I think it is someone's fault. I think it is the fault of the person who makes the untrue claims that allow it to snowball in the first place and, yes, those who accept it without critical thought. There is, after all, no substitute for personal responsibility. Someone once said that if you were to push a boulder off a bluff with houses below you can't blame gravity for the resulting destruction.
Hubris runs quite high among many photographers simply because they believe they're "artists" and ... after all, artists know "everything." LOL -
I speak from experience, having worked among such people in the industry. REAL photographers learned the craft long before the digital age.
These days, photographer constantly attempt to fix their f**k up jobs with Photoshop and a host of other programs, but it hardly matters, because shit cannot be fixed.
If your portrait or wedding photographer, for example, has not been in business for long, and has very few samples of professional work to show you, then ...
Then be ultra suspicious. Some of these imbeciles of cour$e charge you a fortune, and many of them manage to fortunately find customers of the same narcissistic personality type. One hand for one glove. It typically fits, and most often, if two compatible narcissists encounter each other, then they're in heaven. So the customer pays $15,000 for photography, and probably $75,000 for the entire wedding ... and then they get divorced 18 months later.
Happy photographer - semi happy customer.
Dunning kruger effect love it!
@@Anon54387 Not so fast if you read the Dunning kruger effect you will see that the person who suffers from it with a negative critic think the critic is actually wrong.
I know a very good photographer that has been around for decades. She quit several years ago when the iPhone syndrome got going. No one wanted to get really good images because their friends could "shoot the same thing" on an iPhone or similar. We are so inundated with mundane and redundant images I think we have lost our imagination and drive for something special.
A Nikon D300 looks better than any Iphone
Then again a small phone can be great for documentary work in disarming subjects. Stacy Kranitz shoots largely on a phone and her work in Appalcahia is some of the best I've seen. A good photograph is still a good photograph as well. I don't worry too much any more about what others think about what's good, it's the good opinion of those I respect that makes me feel I've taken something good. Especially those who aren't afraid to call me out when they think I've taken something bad!
And electronics engineers don't make what they did relative to other professions between the 1960s and now. Things change. Ultimately, photography isn't necessary the way food is. A former co-worker of mine that started doing product photography doesn't seem to understand this when he laments lack of work. I love photography, it is great fun for me as a hobby. I would never consider doing it for a living.
I had a similar conversation with a photographer back in 2005 long before camera phones were in anyway decent but he hated people taking pictures of his poses. He seemed to not really understand the difference in quality and put his poses as his work not his final images. I suspect he wasn't a very good photographer despite doing weddings for over 20 years at the time. 😂
@Hunter Barner did he get good images tho? Were the photos planned for large printing? Or just social media?
As a long term photography veteran of at least 15 minutes, I feel qualified to make deep swinging judgements with absolute confidence. Anything else would be abject cowardice.
Based
Im a professional photographer and have been for 23 years. I never talk badly about other photographers for two reasons: 1. Art is subjective and 2. Being a photographer is HARD. I respect anyone with the courage to do it.
There we go.
If art were subjective, why is it difficult to be an artist?
Respect.
I will never say being a photographer is hard I completely disagree especially with my experience in physical labor being a photographer is not hard.
@@ared18t I suppose it's not as physically laborious as , say, construction or being a soldier in combat... But, it is very difficult to be a photographer especially at the top levels. But, feel free to disagree.
Part of the effect is due to the fact that when you know very little, anything you learn increases your overall knowledge by a huge percentage. To you, it seems you know a lot when in fact you only know a lot when compared to what you used to know.
Universal law... All truths are not half truths, as what's true in this second is rendered false in the next.
There is always more to learn. The basics like aperture, shutter speed and iso didnt take long for me to learn but I still struggle with composition and color. Last week I went to my friends concert and did some shots. My first time doing anything like it and its insane how much stuff you have to think about. Most images had something cut off in the background or were framed badly or didnt have good connection with the artist. I had to take lots of test shots. Good thing it was just a casual opportunity and nothing professional expected of me.
@@Xirpzy This is where I am at the beginning, at the bottom of the curve, I learn one new thing by trial with my camera, and as a result, 10 new things to learn suddenly pop up...
Theres another important distinction here - photography for the sake of it and photography as a profession. It's totally fine to shoot whatever you want however you like, but just know that there may be no money in it. This is the reason I knew I was bound to be a hobbyist as soon as I picked up a camera; it's self-expression for me, and I'm simply not good enough to mold to a commercial standard. And of course, my favorite photographs, the ones that are layered with meaning and possible interpretations, are the ones that get the least traction online. Kitsch sunset pictures on the other hand? Sheesh
I was going go say something similar. There is also that some people might be fairly good artists but yet making no real money. I bet most people buying camera aren't even looking to make it a profession, even if they google up how professionals work. However, every single one of us is probably hoping to be a great artist 😂 Once it wears off, some of us might even create something that also other people like, not just our partner or parents.
I would imagine those that don’t do it for the money could be the most motivated
So true!
As a photographer if you're not constantly questioning yourself and looking at the work of others and wondering as to the guts, gumption and graft that got them that moment then you're not going to get much better. I think I now know enough to know how much I don't know.
I understand the point about popularity not being equivalent to knowledge… as to the rest of the video, photography is an art form which in turn makes it subjective. Not really anyone’s place to say what is or isn’t good
This has to be hands down the best photography business video I have ever seen! - side note about "model photographer" I live in LA and see a lot of them, all broke claiming to be all that. along those lines I offer models free digitals, measurement, agency shots all for free. In this day and age it makes no sense to charge a model for those basic services. granted it takes time and effort, but I have my own studio and it keeps me shooting and networking of which pays off in the end.
Man, I feel this to the core, Scott. You’ve said it SO well. You’re proof that audience size and knowledge do not correlate directly. And have confirmed my frustration with the comments section is okay 😂 The photography world needs this massively
I just came across this video, subscribed straight away.
I am a Professional photographer (I have a BA Hons in Photography, Video and Digital Imaging, although photography is not my only job right now in the company) and so much of this video makes so much sense.
I work out of a small studio (which is part of a much larger performing arts based business and shop). I honestly think watching your video has made me re-open my eyes too, thank you
In my 40 years of studying, delivering, teaching and researching occupational learning and education, one model (similar to Dunning-Kruger) I have found to hold true is the four stages of learning or "unconcious incompetence" model. Put simply, it states that we go through four stages in the development of a skill such as photography: 1. unconcious incompetence - you don't realize that you don't know what you are doing even though you might think that you do; 2. concious incompetence - you realise you don't know what you are doing, start to spot mistakes and take action to correct and learn from them; 3. concious competence - you know what you are doing but still have to think about it; 4. unconcious competence - the skill has become 'second nature' and can be performed at the same time as or to support other skills. It amazes me just how many people I see, especially on RUclips, who live perpetually in the unconcious incompetence space but put themselves forward as experts and fonts of all knowledge. As the saying goes "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
As someone who started studying Japanese in 2001 and has lived in Japan for the last 13 years... I think I'm still at stage 2 lol
This was an enjoyable watch. I got into photography by accident. I studied a bit of film production, but while studying, I would look for casual photo jobs. My tutor told me to do as much outside work as possible and forget about coming into college. That opened a whole world for me. I work as a press photographer nowadays for a major media group in my country. Everyday is a challenge. I meet 'photographers' with degrees etc that have never done a days work in their chosen field, because they lack experience, but seriously suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. Learn as much working as you can out of your comfort zone. You will get days where it all goes wrong and you want to quit, but those are the days you learn the most.
You mentioned you worked as press photographer. Did you work for a newspaper or some publishing medium? Years ago, in the 1970s and 80s, I worked in the public affairs division in the USAF. Great work. You make a great point about getting out in the field and just work. All the experience I enjoyed made me a good (not going to gloat and say I was great), photographer. Working in the news medium is the best. I got to take photos for the base newspaper of our men and women working anywhere from in the office to maintaining fighter aircraft. Oooo, that was fun running around the flightline snapping pictures of all sorts of aircraft. Before embarking on my job in public affairs I attended the Defense Information School to learn the techniques. That really helped. Learning photography in the news world exposes one to a myriad of situations where you fight to get THE photo for the front page. Even today, photos of newsworthy events are the place for maximum excitement.
@@bondgabebond4907 I work for a newspaper group, which also has a good online presence. I've had two front pages this week. Work is very varied. I've had protests outside parliament to photographing a chef who is featured on Netflix this week. I certainly don't claim to be the best photographer out there, it is all about learning new skills and trying to push boundaries and be creative. Some days, it is hard work trying to get a good shot, just because the opportunities just don't exist. Other days, something major happens, the pressure is high and you get a rush knowing you have achieved something that most people never will get the chance to do. I've flown across the country in a defence force plane with the PM, but I've also had days where I have struggled to photograph a cat 😁
Two words: so true. I constantly see this effect in my line of work and it is highly frustrating. I find this is especially an issue in younger people and business people in general. Thanks for these excellent videos!
Teachable spirit.... the ability to accept criticism, and improve upon the new information. THAT makes a good photographer.
My mom always told me that I was a *Great Photographer* and I agreed with her! So that means one of us didn't know what she was talking about.
That's exactly what I feel right now. Got into portrait photography a year ago and after doing 2 or 3 sessions I was like hey thats pretty good. Now a year later whenever I look at those photos I can't comprehend how bad those were. Now I know it's a really long way to getting good and I'll probably never be as good as I'd wish to be
I just love your honesty and just telling it as it is - So refreshing.
I'm a photographer and I'm trying to learn something new every day. What I've noticed about photographers is the majority of them think there way is the best way. Photography is an art and we all have our different styles of shooting there is no right or wrong way, no bad or good photographer (When it comes to shooting styles) it is just about finding the clients that like your style of work.
Photography stopped being an art decades ago. If you get into photography, as an artist or in other words; with the mindset of creating art, thinking you will actually make money and have your career succeed, you are just fooling yourself. Art does not sell nowadays. Nobody nowadays cares about art. People nowadays just want your service for their business, for their portfolio, for their website, their products, their events, their weddings or whatever else. They don't want art, they want your service. Photography nowadays, is just simply a service that you sell. If you think you will be able to sell art in this day and age, you need to get back down to Earth ASAP, because you will lose LOTS of time and LOTS of money chasing something that won't ever happen.
@nelo maratone I totally disagree with that but thanks for the comment
@@nogerboher5266Obviously you don’t frequent many art galleries, most have photographers on their books.
@@nogerboher5266 personally, I believe that honing your craft in whatever you want is a very nice thing, it can be really fulfilling. maybe, one day you’ll be famous enough to sell your art. Ive seen many photographers that have phenomenal photos that I would buy a print in a heartbeat, if they had some, to put on my wall… but in order to make a living off of photography, yes you have to hone your craft around a product, or something else to make it a service. That being said I think @our trio meant that some people will find their own visually pleasing ways to market themselves and their service in order to make a living off of photography. Many artists have their different ways of doing that, and some sell better than others. Like the photos in the video, there are some very minimal, clean photos of coke bottles and their brand colors. A big corporation like cocacola would probably be into that, because they dont want tacky photos on their billboards wasting them money. Some people will be better at making coke photos. On the other hand you could have a small business that thinks your style of photos suits their image very well, and you could end up a long term partner, in hopes that the company grows.
@@kiwimike2330 The thing is, people who get featured in art galleries, get photographer of the year awards, art museums, so on and so forth, they are a very, very tiny minority of all photographers around the world. You're talking about it like it's a common thing and a stable way of earning stable income, for all photographers around the world... It's not. Not even close.
You're talking about 0.01% of photographers worldwide, highly likely even less than 0.01%, that get their work featured in an art gallery, art museum or similar - and out of those 0.01% that do get lucky enough, 80% don't see a single penny from their work being featured in a museum or any art gallery anywhere.
This video and similar have been so necessary for a long time. It's answered lots of important questions, which no-one else has.
I think I get your point and it's worth gold. We have many puppies living a dream life. I know who you're talking about and I think you've given some great advice. Congratulations and thank you.
This advice is so good and applicable to almost any industry. Chances are, your target customers aren’t the other professionals in your field. When we try to impress our colleagues, we often entirely miss the market.
That's why I like this channel, it's so refreshing to listen to someone who has the experience because they learned their craft the hard way, and not from the so called experts who think they know everything because they saw it on RUclips.
What an important video this is! Thank you. You are definitely one of my favorite photographers today. Well done.
Wow! As a self-made beginner "product photography student" this is very enlightening, thank you. I will keep options open, viewing my learning process as a door to discovering new paths that might lead to other niches.
One of the best and most reall photography/industry videos I have seen in quite sometime....all of the old model and glam photographers basically perfected their craft to a point they feel confident so they start marking themselves to teach photography and just hold workshops.
I work as a comms manager and there's a massive thing where as soon as you start taking team pics with an f1.2 etc, all your teammates start telling you you're amazing at photography. Comms can be a cliche-ridden environment, and it seems it's especially undemanding when it comes to being impressed by simple photos.
Bravo. Same thing happens in craftsmanship - its amazing to see the humility common to the real experts. A brave topic to peel open, but an important one. Loved it.
Totally fell victim to Dunning-Kruger phenomena. Applied for a graphic design role and got an interview. Showed them my portfolio and the interviewer told me that he can see my skills, but there's nothing applicable for the role or that he would need. My world sunk.
But I learnt an extremely valuable lesson. I'm shifting to Photography because it's something I enjoy more. I'm putting hours outside of work to build a respectable showcase of what I can do in my field of interest, even if it means working for free.
The AOP advice is really valuable, thank you for sharing your thoughts 🙏 sometimes we need someone to tell us the harsh truth.
Just because a job refused you doesnt mean you are not good of the other way around. If they said they can see your skill means you are not bad. If a portret photographer aplies for a real estate job he probably wont get it either.
I agree with Yodd, it was your style not your skill that did not get you the job, see where your style of photography works the best
How true. Being at the valley of despair, I just had my eyes opened very wide, and understand now, why I just trigger the button for me.
You give the most value advice I ever heard about photography for free. Thanks - Paulo from Brazil
Amen 🙌🏼
I came here from Carty’s shout out this morning. Glad to see you! Love your content and subscribed
Love this video for so many reasons. Mostly for the hard truth bits. Spent so much time chasing all the things I thought would make me a living. This last couple of years I've come to realise I have all the gear I need, so I've stopped watching gear videos. I've been trying to say I do it all just in case I catch a fish, now I'm just doing what I love. Im so much happier now that I realise I'm never going to be another you with my work, but what I do I love and makes me happy. It was a huge relief actually, rather than a disappointment.
I’ve been at this since the mid 70s as a hobby and love it but do understand just like any and everything in life there is always so much more to learn. I just started at this late stage in life to learn an instrument and am loving all the information.
I've been a "freelance" photographer for some time now, and I always wanted to call myself a "professional" but I always hesitate at that because like you stated, most of us just shoot models or people who think they want to be models for instagram, and hell that does NOT pay the bills, not by a long shot. It doesn't even pay, like ever. My one job that I got paid for was for a wedding, and damn that was a ton of work. I've been frustrated with photography for like a year now because I've been stuck, not knowing what I could do to actually get paid for doing what I enjoy. And just as you said, its not gonna happen, at least not by just shooting people here and there. I see even some photographers offering "business courses" which I'm starting to think is their very own pyramid scheme, because they rarely tell you what to even do with your photos when you learn how to shoot, who do you sell them to or how to market yourself to start to sell your photography. It seems that some of these photographers primarily make their living off selling training courses, not by selling their photography.
You're the first in a long line of photographers on youtube that actually gave me even a breadcrumb of a starting point. An agent. SImple as that, though probably not that simple but at least its a first step. I've been looking for a first step for so long, that I've got myself lost. Thank you for putting me on track again!
Sounds to me like you should try to offer business courses, id' be hilarious if it turns out to be a gold mine
Very true! I’ve encountered a handful of videographers/photographers offering courses on how to work yourself up to getting 10k per month in retainer costs with brands
The photographers in question DONT have any actual credible work to show for their claims. Maybe that’s a form of Dunning Kruger on my part but I simply can’t bring myself to taking advice from no-so-good photographers or photographers with ZERO work that would warrant getting any tips or (paid) mentorship
Hahaha, I can really relate to this. It’s more flattering to be humble than arrogant and probably better for the long term. Thx for this!
I appreciate your perspective and knowledge on this subject. I never wanted to maintain a bias for my own work, personally. I have a hard time taking compliments for basic event photos when I know I have more to put my mind toward than anyone sees, but have seen little hints of over the years. I know what I want out of my work, versus what everyone expects. I think to be a growing artist in general, you have to know your expectations of yourself, but they always have to be higher than where people place you and you have to be working toward that in tandem.
My problem is a lot of people think my photography is great. I hate it... I am en event photographer (festivals, concerts & parties mostly)... I don't consider it an art or a career path at all, but I do consider it mildly creative and a way to have fun and earn some money at the sacrifice of more personal time with friends outside of said events. A lot of it is right place right time and it's taught me a lot about lighting, placement and I have become a control freak within my work, with still plenty I know I need to learn. It is not something I want to make a full time living at anymore, and I did for a while. It's a lot of work for too little pay for what I've put into it myself and I've been basically cornered into doing a lot of these jobs in the industry, because it's what's most readily available here, in a small city with a pension for alcohol consumption, which leads people to other things. I have found myself a bit lost in my direction of where I want to go. It's a tough position to be in, because where does one go when they've built themselves too far into a corner where people expect them to stay? I feel like I have to make a drastic, sudden change that no one is expecting.
One thing I can say for being an event photographer is that I've built the trust of the community, thankfully and because of that, people do want to work with me. That is great and all, but I, for the most part, don't want to work with people just looking for a shoot for no reason, where I don't know what I'm even marketing... I would want to make print concept work, if anything. I want to feel like I'm fulfilling my purpose for being a photographer now. I would consider myself great in the event realm, but I know I need practice otherwise, but I know my lighting based on the way I do events. I'm definitely entering my phase of, "what do I do from here?" I have some opportunities, but they aren't exactly directly in the photography realm. I may be entering the videography field with another business more and more, which may be what saves me oddly enough. I love my community and the support, but I don't think I'm going to get any better as a photographer and especially a business minded photographer until I pull further and further away from events. It taught me all I know and it put me at an advantage to enter into other realms. It's a tough move though, because there's a lot of waiting and patience involved right now, but in the meantime, I want to jump into other places with photography and break the stigma and a bit of a curse.
BTW, I feel the same about "model photographers". There's no cohesiveness to most of their work, they're largely not actually passionate about photography and I've even had one admit to me at a shoot I was a model's chaperone/assistant for that he only does it to look at and be around pretty girls. He's a wifeless 50+ y/o man. Never really cared to be a better photographer or even editor than he was and it shows all these years later. Themes are lame/tired and sometimes downright confusing when it comes to a pose, a prop and anything else that doesn't seem to fit the scene. The women photographers where I live I have noticed almost all have amazing work and put most of the creeps to shame, but creeps always gonna creep!
Thanks for keeping it real about this industry!
THIS IS WHY I LOOOVEEE THIS CHANNEL!!! THIS VIDEO MADE MY DAY!!!, bests regards from a Venezuelan follower in Panama!
Thanks
Excellent video. Glad I found your channel! And your work is amazing!!
"But if I show you how to do a 57 light setup" I totally get that. And I was very much into that to start with. Watching Seth Miranda use 10 speed lights to light a shot was super cool. And he really does know his stuff. But now I watch him still and I watch a guy like Ab Sesay who does those videos some people would find boring. Like testing 50 different types of diffusion. Or going through what's the best softbox. Or 15+ different types of light stands. Those are the videos and information that interests me now that I'm passed that initial Dunning Kruger effect. And realizing how much about everything else in photography I don't know. And I like videos like these with real life philosophy and insight. Thank you Scott. Keep this up if you can. I appreciate it.
Ngl this video was very eye opening, I'm coming to the end of a commercial photography degree but have a rather 'internet' way of shooting still. I'm definitely going to follow your aop advice, I love portrait/lifestyle but need to make sure it can be commercial 🤔 great video and I hope many more people see it, ty
I love the The Dunning-Kruger effect and use it nearly daily.
You are 100% right with your comments! In almost all professions the loudest people are the ones with the lowest skills and knowledge.
Ouch! For all the hard reality hits on your points. When we were creating photographs back in the 1980s via the struggle of film - my peers looked back to the masters of light like Cyclops, Avedon, and Penn. (but at least some of us could be proud to improve our darkroom work over time). I am also shocked by what I thought were good pic.s I took; but yes it is micro improvements we struggle to get better at doing this craft. Great points all, thanks!
Bang on. I feel like the dunning Kruger rainstorm follows me around! Enjoying the channel mate. 🙏
Very wise and informative. Loved the video ❤
This is a very complex topic, because you need to define "good" and "bad". What does that mean. I know of many okay photographers that make a great living because they are good marketers or great at running a business. They get their photos, throw on a sepia LUT and boom get paid. Yes they are a "good photographer" because they have successfully monetized their skill. So what do you use as a measure? I don't know. You can work so hard to be technically good, but if no one buys or employees you are you good or bad? I think this to be a very difficult topic because for the client what is good is perception. So how do you measure this?
I love photography deeply but would never try to make a living from it. Fair play to you for making it pay. Every time I start to think that I'm a great photographer I open a Salgado book.
Facts. When I started photography over 30 years ago, I worked as an assistant for a commercial photographer. What I saw him create was the standard. As well as the great imagery I would see in magazines. There was also a book called The Black Book. This was a promo book filled with the work of working photographers that would go out to art directors, ad agencies, and other photo buyers and creatives.
Absolutely one of your best videos. Sums up so many of your points perfectly. Cheers!
You had me at Donning Kruger! Im not even a photographer, I´m a small business owner. This phenomenon occurs in every profession, Im afraid. That´s why I subscibed. I´m sure you can teach me many useful things. Thank you!
Ilove the dunning kruger effect :) because it never stops and that is kinda cool. You can not knwo how competent you are because you would need more knowledge that you actually have to accurately answer this. For me this is the absolute guide to be humble, easy to work with, accept advices and it keeps you in the state of wanting to learn more
Fresh air on RUclips. Thank you.
super thanks for this honest glimpse in photography
Thank you a lot! very good advice, for the point of self-development where I am now
This video was just the paradigm shift I didn’t know I needed.
Another great video full of sound advice. I think if you look at your work in six months time and nothing has changed then you really aren't progressing. Learning is a life long skill.
I want say thank you for helping generalizing the idea of the Dunning Kruger Effect for yet another professional field. As a hobbyist photographer and a professional in other fields, I think that ignorance is a terrible blind spot for all of us and appreciate any chance to be reminded of that fact.
There are never enough opportunities to remain humble in life.
So, once again, thank you for sharing this concept with respect to photography. The constant reminder of a possibility of ignorance is worthwhile, keeps our ego's modest, and our minds curious for new knowledge.
Pure genius Scott! Best video yet. Love it.
I love this video there isn't enough people willing to share these kind of tips or experiences.
I currently do sports photography that's is mostly wrestling focused with the occasional promotion shoots.
I originally studied to do media in general and somehow found myself doing this type of photography when it wasn't my main focus.
I have learned about what stuff I either thought I knew and like yourself found out I I know anything but with progression I am quickly adapting.
The best advice I've learned from doing this is that you might take 100 pictures but only 10 of them may be good enough to use.
The more pictures you take the more the chances of a good picture increases along with the knowledge of knowing what's important and what you can maybe leave out at the time.
One thing I will always tell people who ask me how to work In this type of work or environment is always be willing to learn.
Some people know ways you don't and vice versa so never be afraid to ask for advice and try out new techniques when you can.
5:22 Consider how many cameras exist and how many mf'ers actually get paid to use them (the number is still WAYYYY too high) and this is true for the vast majority of people who claim to be photographers. "Yeah. That's not a job." Previous to that mark in the video, tho, I would advise you that what people think is great is subjective. Period. Popular doesn't equal good necessarily, but good (subjective) doesn't necessarily equal successful, either. Passion is no substitute for competency.
FAN-TASTIC Video. Very good information.
I find it literally entertaining when I experience one of these “Ah-Ha” moments and realize I’m so green.
I ask this question all the time!
If other people are happy with their photography and enjoy their own photographs what is point of dragging them? And if someone wants to carve a niche with models or restaurants, what difference does it make to anyone else. They will succeed or they won't. I don't see how butting into their lives to tell them they're going to fail -- whatever that means -- helps anyone.
This is so true! I've worked in pro studios for over a decade and I am now a self-employed photo-retoucher (amongst things). In the studio it was the non-"sexy" things that payed the bills.
I actually hate your videos! Because you actually tell the truth and give good advice. You tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear.
Keep up the good work.
Ps . The first part of the sentence was being sarcastic.
Keep the educational videos coming
I hear what you are saying. 12 years since I first picked up a camera although I'm a software dev, not a pro. I'm still learning even now. Everyone has their path and they have to find it but the internet can mislead people. It literally creates people who want to be an influencer as a job. That is mind boggling to me.
That’s the great subjectivity of art. There are mediocre photographers who make a living and there are amazing photographers that haven’t made a cent. The photos I like to take and the photos I make money with are two wildly different genres.
With the clarification at the end of the video it makes more sense, but it's really weird how much you equate being good with being profitable. Left me feeling very mislead. They're obviously two completely separate things, unless you're working with a severely mangled definition of "good"
I've accepted that I will always fall victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect so I've simply surrendered to it and do my best to recognize that I always have something to learn. Even so, when it comes to art, photography, etc, I just do what I personally like. If I see someone doing something I really like, I try to emulate that. It's ultimately very selfish but I just stick to the things that I personally find appealing, regardless of if it's "right" or "wrong." However, I'm also not a professional so I suppose I can afford to have this sort of carefree attitude lol.
In the end, I will say this, perhaps in contrast to this video, if you know the basics of whatever field you are in and are doing your best to keep that kind of stuff in mind, you are already head and shoulders above many others, especially people like me who just do whatever. If you actually put in the time and effort, you are on your way to making good shit. Just don't get arrogant.
to me, i love the idea of not knowing everything. its the experience of learning and trying to perfect the art. I love knowing that I am gonna learn more and try new things. its amazing to me.
Hi, Would you be willing to share what your DSLR set up is the a back standard and a front standard? I am intrigued. Thank you.
I understand and agree mostly with what you say about the lack of career path and commercial viability e.g. for "model photographers". But doesn't the same apply for (almost) all street photographers? I mean, who will ever book anyone to take candid pictures of strangers/pedestrians, mostly black & white and usually terribly boring? I strongly assume they all don't have an agent and/or a real industry, either. I think there were many still life painters over the last centuries, and I assume almost none of them were painting strawberries in order to enhance the numbers & figures of the national strawberry market of their time and country... I think there are photographers who just shoot beautiful people and maybe make a little money with prints or books, and there are sports, cars, architectural photographers who make a living on their camera without having an agent... In my previous appartement I had a (huge) 2000$ photograph on my wall which I considered worth every penny, and I do think that photographer did not have "an agent in the industry", either... Just my two cents...
I can't help but agree and disagree. I am a working photographer with professional work Billboard work up at JFK international and have just come back from Ukraine working as a photo journalist. The only way I've been able to do so much with my work in a relatively short amount of time is by sticking to my guns and doing things my way. Shooting everything the same as I would for personal projects, styling it as my own, I mean the whole kit and caboodle. I have specialized into working almost entirely for Distilleries and Breweries. It's been more difficult sure but I've gotten farther ahead in my career then if I'd try and be everyone else by making myself "Marketable".
I do fully agree about the the DK effect. That hits every photographer at some point and can follow them forever. As mentioned above though, these sub categories can work out from time to time. It's easier than ever for anyone to claim to be a photographer and that can hurt actual working photographers without a doubt. I am reminded of the works of Rembrandt and the artists today who spend their entire life training to recreate Rembrandts look to a T. Arguably that takes far more technical know how and mastery of their craft - However history doesn't remember those who copy but those who innovate. Just as you know Rembrandt and not the artist spending years to copy his works.
I just googled "model photography" ... geesh. Agreed on all you said.
This information and video is Priceless!!!
This video confirms my belief in remaining humble, and that one should always be learning and experimenting. I went to film school, but music is my native craft. I can correlate the arts and have great and accurate discussions lol, but the hands on skillset is too be acquired. Cuzzo complains that I don't shoot enough, and he may be right. However, his shots and vids are very lacking... I keep stressing the importance of LEARNING the craft, and all of its idiosyncrasies. Great video
you present your matterial very well.
after listening to your u-tubes, you've helped me slide by that (ego) graph and realize that i will NEVER be a profess photographer. which leaves me with one option.. the 'Joy' of photography
Thanks for your advise Scott. Ill take it onboard young man ;) I have to ask,,, where's your puppy!!??!?! Can we have him on the next video please
great advice man, thank you
Very interesting and informative video! Cheers from Canada 🇨🇦
This was something of a revelation for me. Thank you.
holy shit, at first when I heard about dunning krueger effect i thought it will be a waste of time, but this is actually a video that every photographer should see
I don't for a second think I'm good. And I am acutely aware of how new I am to photography. But, this video has me second guessing every photo I love. How do you get past that and know what you are doing that is right?
a little disconnected but I think most of your points are right. will say don't need 6 minutes of your backstory after 3 minutes of saying people don't get what's good. Opinions are opinions btw, and a point is needed that what you think is good is what you should be taking pictures of. As a professional take what is needed, but in terms of what you call "good" and what you like you can't make a video on what that is. You can help people make their good photos have better lighting, but you can't change what they think good photos are. Parents don't need f1.4 full frame photos of their children out back playing on the swingset to look at in a photo book to cry at, the 35mm disposable camera they took 3 months to use and got developed at CVS may just do that trick for them.
A friend once told me the fastest way to make money with a camera, is to sell it. I think too many people have thoughts of grandeur. They want to go and pick up a camera and take great pictures. But not put in any of the work to make great pictures.
I needed to hear this message, cheers
Such wisdom! Thanks Scott!
"If I show you what actually gets me paid, I get no views." That's how I feel when I start talking to people who see a lot of my concert photography and think that's all I do.
That's the FUN stuff, the stuff that doesn't pay, many times at least. But I do make some money in the music photo biz. It has led to bigger opportunities, and so I can't totally knock it, but it takes a LONG time to get your foot in that door.
The trade off is I get into big name shows, and I get a photo pass for the memory book, and the photos for the memory book and a presence online, and of course the trade off is an article or photos for the show.
Thanks for sharing and highlighting this topic. I’ve definitely learnt a few things. From watching your content daily.
On point. Im a full time photographer as well and your are so right. Its funny, because my girlfriends aunt once asked me: "Im following your Instagram and I really dont know how you are making a living out of that few images of actors and actresses". And I told her, that I am making my money with shooting advertising, high end retouching international campaigns and other stuff. Nothing I really show on Instagram. The Images of Actors are just working as a advertising for my photography business. And because of my Retouching backround (made huge stuff for every big brand out there) Im so tired of Photographers who are teaching, for example, "beauty" retouching without working a single time for a real beauty client in the real world... :D
Your studio 🔥🔥🔥
Hey a bit off-topic here but I got in my 5D Mark 2 and I have a Canon 17-40 L series lens what should be the next choice the 24 to 105 or a prime 100 mm lens? Well and of course learning to use the camera would be nice too LOL 😆
Ah cool, the thumbnail image was shot on that combo.
Either lens would be fine.
This is such a good video. and it's very true that you may know one perspective or side of the industry but there are other sides you haven't seen. I have worked as a photog for the last 10 years of my life. I do both Video and Photo in news to local commercials to now the 1 or 3 photographers in a huge multi million dollar company. However on the side I'm trying to do some freelance stuff. Weddings, graduation photos, family shoots. and I am having the hardest time in the world getting it off the ground. It's a side of the industry I have never seen.
101 absolute truth bombs in one video. Brilliant! Respectfully submitted, NOT A Model Photographer!
Excellent presentation! Now I want to hang out in your studio and learn everything by osmosis.
Umm… what’s ‘aperture’? 😂😂
every video a wealth of knowledge thanks.
I guess you could say I do "model" photography. But I thought it was simply portrait photography? Sometimes it would have an editorial feel. Anyway indo it for the art not the money. I make my money elsewhere.
I'm a new photographer but a longtime artist, so I can say that I think it's important to keep the art and the business separate. If a client isn't buying their photos, if they're doing it for art, who cares? It'd still legitimate. Butnof it's commercial, if there's a business client that has a need you fill, then that's a way to make a living. You don't care about the art you care about the money and providing a service. That's fine too. Don't get them confused.
There is always room to learn and be humble
I think people who do it for vanity are more likely to be egocentric about their photography. People who do it because they enjoy it are more likely to be good at it