The Red Pill: The Strange Art of Men's Rights Activism (Part 1) | Big Joel
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- In this video, I talk about The Red Pill for a while. Mainly, I talk about the film's first major argument.
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Sources:
Stuff on poverty and gender:
nwlc.org/resources/national-s... poverty-among- women-families- 2015/
Stuff on women in the military:
time.com/5060570/military-women- sexual-assault/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...
www.nytimes.com/2014/05/02/us... assault-report.html?_r=0
humanevents.com/2011/11/22/spe... out-against- military-handling- of-sexual- assault/
Stuff on gun control and male suicidality:
www.cnn.com/2015/09/02/health...
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...
Donald Trump on the Second Amendment: • Trump clarifies his 'S...
Mike Pence on women in the military:www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...
Paul Elam on Trump: www.avoiceformen.com/featured...
If there are any holes here, let me know! I may have forgotten something! 
Кино
Men's right activist: "Gender roles aren't just bad for women, they can be bad for men too!!!!"
Feminists: "Yes."
Any true men's rights activist is a feminist as well. And it always depresses me when I don't see overlap on those two issues.
@@alexgallagher9759 based
@@5nformidad 😈
Much more concise and funny than what I was gonna say while getting across the same point. This shit hurts ALL of us.
@@garrettcaldwell8529 My man, what do you think toxic masculinity is? It's the part gender roles that are harmful for men.
I won't deny that there are some people who call themselves feminists who act extremely shitty to men, as you can find members of any group that hates any other group. But if you think that is what most feminists are like, then that's because your only exposure to feminists is through reaction videos made by anti-feminists.
Poor and working class women have ALWAYS worked, especially in non-Western countries. I think people often forget this.
Yes! I read recently that during the 50s a third or more of women worked outside the home. Staying home wasn't an option for non-rich people - and women of color particularly
not to mention that housework is work too
huh? Women in Western countries have always been working more than in non-Western countries. The introduction of women in the workplace has been one of the reasons the West has become the economically most powerful culture region in the world.
Yeah, in hunter-gatherer societies, everyone’s going around and picking berries and stuff. The biggest difference, the way I see it, is that women are assaulted more because they’re physically weaker.
There’s a reason so many of the victims of things like the Triangle shirtwaist factory fire were women...
Has she ever considered .... *we can both be being oppressed and discriminated against by different and sometimes overlapping sects of society and institutions 😦*
The red pill documentary never denied that women have issues.
@@connorp3030 The the Red Pill entirely misses is that women are largely oppressed by men and men are largely oppressed by other, more powerful men. "Meninism" as a response to feminism makes no fucking sense because there is no matriarchy.
@@rhaeven Ok first of all, by saying "meninism" you've demonstrated that you're easily gaslit by memes and people acting ironically. "meninism" is not a social movement, it's people who act like RUclips caricature feminists ironically to troll. If you can't differentiate serious MRA's and trolls then of course you'll have a negative opinion.
Second of all, if there's all these different areas where men are systemically discriminated against, I don't think it makes much difference to the victims whether the people doing it is male or female, and I don't see the issue with advocating for the human rights of these people.
@@connorp3030 yes I understand the memes, and the genuine MRAs, and the hefty crossover between the two, that's why I'm using that term for them.
@@connorp3030 If you do something ironically enough times, it stops being ironic. I'm not gonna say memes are dangerous cause that's stupid, but don't act like this person doesn't know what they're talking about because of some trolls online. On top of that, quite a lot of MRA's hold this resentment against feminism, when both feminism and mens rights are fighting against the patriarchal system so it really wouldn't make sense for MRA's to be against feminism. If women stayed in the patriarchal system and men wanted to shift away you'd still have unrealistic expectations for those men by the women regardless of how far the men push for help. Kind of like how feminism was a stride for women's rights, but the fact that there are a lot of men still who have the patriarchal mindset, you can't break down these unfair barriers, unfair roles for both genders.
This is just like the "getting kicked in the balls hurts worse than giving birth" argument. the movie doesn't actually care about helping anyone, it just wants to win a childish competition of "we're worse off than you" but doesn't seek to do anything about it.
Feminism or any activism in generally have been doing that. No difference.
Very well put, Astro. Everybody wants to be the victim.
It does have a goal: it seeks to silence feminists
Exactly. I agree that liberal mcfeminism is not great, but that's because it centres trivial issues and white middle class issues. Feminism seeks to address ways the patriarchy harms men as well as women. And capitalism forces both genders into specific roles. I wish men and women could team up to take down capitalism and the patriarchy and white supremacy together instead of arguing past each other.
Rosie Puplett I know everyone is so divided.
mens rights activism is such a strange and convoluted way to interpret the fact that gender roles are bad for everyone
My sentiments exactly. I find it sad because some MRAs in the comment section go on length about how feminism destroys men and they make these elaborate arguments of stuff completely and utterly out of their control...while basically most of the problems they talk about, if not because of the government or class structure, is basically stuff that can directly be fixed by being better to your fellow man.
Yeah no. “Gender roles” (as a concept) only exists as a luxury which technology and modern society allows you to identify as a “problem”.
Say “gender roles are bad” to anyone from a third world country, or before the advent of modern medicine, power and electricity, the internet, sewerage systems and contraception, and you’ll begin to see that “gender roles” are an in-built biological/genetic factor that can’t be erased as quickly as we can advance the technology that makes it obsolete.
It has existed for hundreds of thousands of years. It’s why women don’t have as much upper body strength as men. It’s why we are so inherently different you can identify a man or a woman based on their skeletons. It goes as deep as neurological wiring being one way for men and another for women. It’s why men have penises and women have vaginas.
The gender role problem isn’t going away within our lifetime or the next, and all of the ways you frame this problem are abstract ideological principles refuted by a casual google search on neurology, biology, history, genetics and psychology.
@@SecretSickle89 There is a difference between sex and gender :) And only the former is biological. (And not as binary as most people like to think) ;)
The way I see it, mra and feminists could be match made in heaven if the quited being jerks to eachother
Jan ah the whole sex and gender aren’t the same nugget. I haven’t heard anyone say that BS in years.
So you’re saying there are zero biological and genetic factors going into how a gender acts/reacts and all gender roles and norms are societally mandated?
7:07 “Women are more likely to be single mothers.”
I understand the point you’re making, but I still chuckled at that sentence.
Alec Miller I did the same thing, lol. "Single Parent" probably wouldn't have sounded as goofy, lol.
If you’ve read through the US Census, you’d find that they categorize people like “single mothers, single fathers, etc” as of means to record their poverty rates, etc, more closely.
So I take that either he spoke his sentence incorrectly, or was referring to the categorical names like “single mothers”.
@@GerardoAguilar1 probably just made a goof up
Alphonse Leung maybe a good caused by knowledge
"18 year old children"
"You say the problem is patriarchy, but we're the ones dying for you! To protect our families."
Dude.
That's a patriarchal issue.
Like, the cultural pressure for the man to sacrifice for the woman is ALSO part of the patriarchy.
The hell kinda feminist stood there and let that guy say that without pointing that out?
Also, that line he said, sounds so manipulating. Something that an abusive husband would say to make her wife feel guilty for bring up an issue.
What kind of Feminist would not point that out ?
Maybe a Feminist, who wants to listen to other Ideologies instead of saying "Well in my Opinion, it ACTUALLY is that. So you're wrong in your Beliefs"
@@raptorexo5029 she can listen, and still provide a counter point. Listening doesn't necessarily mean passively accepting, and if she presented the (fairly standard for feminism) critique I outlined above in good faith, it would have been a more enriching discussion for both parties.
It wouldn't be "no you're wrong" it would be "you're right, but consider it like this".
@@Scanny524 A counter point to what? You're framing mens rights activists so hard as anti feminist so hard in your mind that you can't see that it's not a claim against feminism to begin with, it's just a claim that the male gender role is harmful. lol
@@connorp3030 the man in the clip was dismissing the entire concept of the patriarchy having a role to play in why men are the ones that go to war and die. That's completely false, it was patriarchal thinking and laws that did it.
Men dying in combat is an argument _against war,_ not against women. Men dying at work is an argument _for workplace safety,_ not against women. Men dying by homicide is counteracted by men committing a vast preponderance of homicides, and is an argument _for gun regulation,_ not for men or against women. Men dying by suicide is an argument _for mental health services_ and the destigmatization of men sharing their feelings instead of "being a man" and dealing with them. There are not "men's rights", these are _human rights._
Yet they are not fought for by feminists for the most part. Which is why the men’s rights groups are the ones doing the lobbying.
100%
@@AlexHernandez-ee5hd I mean
Feminism doesn't really... Mean any of that? Idk if I'm gonna say this right but feminism focuses on the specific issue of women's oppression, not all those other things- most of us would likely still agree with these things, it's just not a part of feminism itself.
@@lightningqueen1145
Of course, which is why it is a primary focus of men’s rights activism.
Yes, except for the gender gap in homicides as both victim and perpetrators exist in almost all countries regardless of the level of gun control.
It's hilarious how many of these problems can just be chalked up as a critique of capitalism and they don't even realize it.
You can make that argument, sure. But then it cuts the same way for women's issues too. So you should also, to be logically consistent, railing against Patriarchy theory with the same criticism. Do you?
You don't need free markets or free speech to lean towards coddling women and sending men into the mines and minefields, it's uncannily instinctual.
For the elites to keep ruling it is imperative that the alienated classes disavow any notion of socialism. Hence they are heavily propagandized to equate their own oppression to "cultural marxism" or some bs of the sort.
But Vuvuzela!
@@010203109 is it? I think Cleopatra, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Luxembourg, Rosa Parks, and countless other female revolutionaries and heroes would beg to differ
Easy solution: destigmatize "nurturing" roles. Pay teachers more, applaud the stay-at-home dads, stop assuming the male artists and designers are queer, paid parental leave for all genders, etc. Empower those roles more, and stop painting them (and other traditionally feminine things) as "weak". A lot of times, these things are safer than the heavy labor and combat situations poor men find themselves in.
So: men get safety by moving to those roles, and women in those traditionally feminine rolls get empowered. Win-win.
Buuuut that's just my two cents.
thats hard to do cause females are fundamentally coddled and raised born as nurturers taught to be feminine and males in general were born to fight and hurt and build/destroy be violent and tough aka not feminine..its just in our overall natures...and we have allowed it over thousands of years to be this way honestly so we can protect the weaker and reproduce and it can't be fixed over night..its just facts
Asmosis Jones that’s true, but that’s ingrained in people from nurture, not nature. while you can’t change the nature of physical abilities between genders, you don’t have to follow the roles laid out for you. the parents of today can teach their children however they’d like.
@@razkable well we should stop doing that
@Black Knight
Do they? What women are you looking at, and what motivations might those particular women have to say such things? Have you considered that at all?
I have indeed heard regressive nonsense about men from certain women, but there are unique aspects these particular women that cannot be generalized to women in general. In my experience they are either A) deeply religious, B) were raised religious (and despite leaving the faith haven't quite let go of the culture), C) dedicated their lives to gaining power/respect in the only avenue that was ever available to them (and so are bitter and resentful about the changing times), or D) are deeply and irrationally afraid men are trying to take away what few advantages they actually have, and they will be left with *nothing* rather than equality.
In my own friend groups, such religious motivations and suspicion are not present, so the idea any of my female friends would treat men badly for being "feminine" is absurd.
@a foul thing i feel like stay-at-home parents are egalitarian, its mostly about the stigma. staying at home with your kid reduces stress, helps with better mental and physical development for yiur child, saves money on gasoline, babysitting, daycare, etc.
plus, according ta your definition, egalitarianism is the equal splitting of responsibilities, yes? i feel stay-at-home parents fit this criteria. parenting is a very difficult task, especially if you have multiple children. caring for them is no easy feat, and I respect anyone who can put up with (and even enjoy) the hurdles of parenthood. it's like babysitting almost 24/7! imagine that! but i hope I got my point across in a clear way, have a great one :)
As if women haven't also been doing hard labor and dangerous work for thousands of years too.
Childbirth is a hard job with a high fatality rate, and it doesn’t pay well.
as if you have
@@WhatWouldLubitschDo ifkr, funilly enough it forces you to pay shit not only to ensure you have a low fatality rate, AND to make sure your kid will come out alive and also after its born you have to take care of it until its old enough to stand on their own which takes a lot of emotional and physical stress. Negative balances.
@Iron Ostrich There’s no arguing with these types because men aren’t seen as human. We’re seen as expendable human shields.
I doubt thousands of years considering they were basically locked in homes as breed machines for being physically weaker
So weird how they hate needing to fight in wars but also deny toxic masculinity exists
What the Men's Rights Movement misses is that it isn't a women vs men thing. It's a class thing. People in power tell men below them to work and serve and give up their lives for "the greater good" when it mostly just serves the goals of people in power. But they also tell women to be quiet and be stay at home mothers and be nurses or teachers. These things aren't inherently bad; societies need protectors and teachers and nurses and workers. I think that many of the men's rights activists see a history of women fighting for equal rights as an attack on their gender. These men feel opressed, and I believe they use feminism as a scapegoat because they don't realize who really is opressing them. And they don't realize it because they same people who are opressing them are other males. It's just easier to see people who are different then us as an enemy.
"The history of all hitherto is the history of class struggles" -Karl Marx
Men are afraid that we'll do to them what they've done to us for 10 thousand years, so when they hear ''women's rights'' they think ''let's oppress the men''...
But I think a bigger question is why do they feel like it's a man versus women thing. I think the biggest reason men feel oppressed is because they're always told their wrong and evil. Just by being a man, you're told that you're oppressing women and that you are a problem. I don't think we need a men's rights movement, I think we need men to know that being a man is okay, and regardless of what an entire movement wants you to think, your life matters. You don't need to risk it every single day in your line of work, you don't have to do all the dangerous jobs anymore. Live your life the way you want to.
Long duk dong Maybe not directly, but there’s been many people who have called all men sexist just for being men. Even one of the girls at my school called me a sexist pig cause I didn’t know what a tampon was and asked. We’re definitely demonized in a lot of eyes.
Sabra Moraldi “what they’ve done to us” that is to say that every single man has oppressed or hurt women, and that every man is somehow responsible for women generally being belittled
some of the mra arguments are just arguments against the military-industrial complex
Precisely. All societies were built on top of military power and are sustained even today by military power. This means societies are built, protected and sustained by men's corpses. If this is not a gender problem for men, then what would constitute a gender problem? If women, and not men, was the gender who is obligated to die in combat, you will for sure say this is proof that society is unfair to women. Of course because men are dying, then it is not oppressive in any way.
Zadratube I love this idea that women don’t suffer in war...
You could say that if the losses were distributed more evenly.
And? They are still issues specific to men that they fight for. Doesn't matter where it's rooted, it's still an issue
@@lfzadra Not all. Nations like India and China that have been around longer than the western nations you call "all" were not built off the backs of wars and had to arm themselves and militarize to protect themselves from the western forces.
I have noticed that men's rights activism can't complete any of its arguments without complaining about Feminism.
Feminists protested at a mra talk and trying to stop people from entering and it was basically about male suicide.
@@killermajaro364 yeah, that was cringe
@@killermajaro364 *criticizes MRAs for always complaining about feminism*
*complains about feminists*
@Timmy L Caring about mens issues = mysogyny i c i c
Not true
"Men do all the dangerous jobs" ok so let's get more women doing those jobs "no we don't want that"
ok so do you want to be compensated better for those jobs? "no not that" free healthcare? "no we don't want that either" ok so what do you want? "to feel more oppressed than women" oh
"Men die in all the wars" ok so allow more women to join the army "no we don't want that" ok so you want to end all the unnecessary bloodshed? "no we still want wars" ok so maybe reform the VA and improve access to treatment and therapy for vets? "nope" ok then what the fuck is your problem? "we want people to feel bad for us :("
@@beast_boy97 yeah it's so strange. It's providing a problem but doing everything in your power not to come up with solutions
That's a strawman if I ever saw one
None of them would day that.
@@beast_boy97 You've probably heard mra's don't do anything and this is why you're putting up this strawman.
But if you actually did your research, you'd quickly realise we do organised action to fix every problem we talk about. For example with the draft, the national coalition for men fought up to the supreme court successfully to prove that drafting men only is unconstitutional. Now it's much more difficult to draft only men, and people will be much more against the draft in general, making it more difficult to employ and easier to abolish fully.
We complain about fathers not being able to be involved with children a lot, so we lobby for split custody bills and paternity leave bills, and form charities to give affordable legal aid for men pursuing child custody. We also have conferences and write books about the benefits to your relationship and children and your mental health of taking time off of work to be more involved at home with the children.
We complain a lot about sexual and domestic violence of men, so we lobby against harmful bills (e.g duluth model), lobby for positive legislative changes (e.g an mra politician successfully got parental alienation included in the new domestic abuse bill, and the coalition for men and boys has launched a campaign for a strategy for ending violence against men and boys, focused primarily on getting charities that help men e.g mankind initiative government funding, as well as changing the laws around sexual violence so female on male sexual violence carries the same sentences as the reverse (female on male rape in the uk only has a punishment of a community order if convicted)).
Their arguments are basically just about poor men. It’s not about gender, but about poverty.
Well, it is of obvious benefit to the 1% that all the angry guys are directing their anger at women instead of the 1%. Divide and conquer.
why not both?
and no, not all the arguments are just about poverty. Genital mutilation has nothing to do with poverty.
@@blondbraid7986 true, well said
And most feminazi arguments are just but rich guys in suits, not about gender.
@@user-fj3fy1km1b most people know that so, especially if they've been on the internet for any length of time during the past 5 years. Feminism and social justice has been pretty much all anybody's talked about
I actually disagree with what you said about women being more likely to be single mothers. I myself am a man and I'm a pround single mother of two.
Why is this even a joke? Plenty of trans activists believe this is perfectly possible.
@@malehumanperson7901 trans people are really rare though
@@malehumanperson7901 because a trans women would just be called a women.
@@malehumanperson7901 the moment you are in need of a safe place in the comments section of a progressive channel is when you should reconsider everything.
@@Pablo123456x I'm not a progressive or interested in a safe space
"In every society that's ever existed, women have had privileges and protections that men did not." love this rewriting of history 👌🏻
Sure women had less privileges than men in some areas of life but it would be a lie to say they didn't have other privileges that men didn't have too.
@@-tom-8720 sure Tom
@@-tom-8720 name them?
They were protected from everything outside their own house in Ancient Greece.
@@washada How about this: they were reduced to being mothers and slave masters and forbidden from going outside to learn, explore, and create?
Your video on this is the sole reason I changed my course from anti-sjw incel to a more empathetic and left-wing politically aligned person all the way back in 2020, thank you.
'most politicians are men and politics is hard and stressful work, how could feminists say men are privileged?'
'yeah, we think there are too many men in politics, and what we want is more women to share that responsibility'
feminism literally fixes that problem.
@copper sugar It does nothing to fix the problem. It goes above and beyond to create brand new problems, just those problems only afflict men so they'll ignore tham and pretend their ideology is perfect despite any damages it causes.
Women voted for these politicians. They are the largest voting block.
@@elelyon431 what are the brand new problems, and how does it not fix the current one?
Chaos incognito With immediacy or with the thought if 'into the future'? If immediacy, one thought that comes to mind is that feminism has led to an increased impetus to perpetuate forced genital mutilation performed on male babies killing ~150-300 babies per year on the express basis of gender. You can blame it on the Kellogg corp founding family too, but that quack recommended torturing teen boys rather than baby boys because he wasn't afraid of his subject fighting back. To this day we live in a country proclaiming equality while giving certain people special rights and privileges based on their genetic makeup.
Into the future, Affirmative Action and the eventuality of its impact reaching congress and mandating a certain % of every political office be female just *because* but not requiring male reps is one thought that could impact the future. Usually 'equality' just means superiority and guarantees for exactly one group.
As for how it doesn't fix how the problems we have... how does it? It's not ameliorating rhe male suicide rate that's causing 60% of American gun deaths, that's for sure. So you tell me, will you?
@@elelyon431
Male genital mutilation is indeed a problem.
Though I can't see how feminism is connected to it.
You also seem to ignore that female genital mutilation is just as much of a problem.
And yes we live in a country proclaiming equality while giving certain people special rights and privileges based on their genetic makeup.
I don't even live in America and this is also correct for where I live.
But that's what feminism is for. Feminists fight for equality.
As for Women in politics.
Politicians make decisions for their whole country, and women are largely underrepresented in politics. Which means that even decisions that largely impact women (like something relating to pregnancy, birth contol or menstruation) are made by mostly men.
About the male suicide rate.
You are right this is a problem.
There are more successful suicide attempts among men than among women.
But that is mostly because men go for more lethal weapons like guns. (Which starts yet another discussion about gun control.)
But neither the person that posted the original comment nor I said that it would fix all problems.
The problem we were talking about was the argument "most politicians are men, and politics is a stressful job, so how could feminists say men are privileged?"
More female politicians would fix the problem of 'mostly men being so stressed by politics'.
Radfems: "Women are more oppressed and men are the oppressors!"
MRAs: "No, it's men that are oppressed and it's women that are the oppressors!"
The bourgeoisie that oppress them both: "mmmm yes.. good... keep at that"
I thank you for not confusing actual feminists with the small, angry, misogynistic group
@@AngelaDSato Feminist myself. I don't like radfems because they tend to... uh... not like trans people very much, and I don't really like people who don't like me so *shrug*
@@terezip2213 it just seems so senseless to me that anyone would want to marginalize people that were just being themselves, and it gets even worse when associated with the feminist or LGBTQ+ movements. Those movements are literally about respect and egalitarianism, so what are they even thinking
PS: you're really brave, not only for everything you probably have to deal with in a daily basis, but saying you're trans in THIS comment section, woah :0
@@AngelaDSato uwuuuuu
but yeah
TERFs are dumb
@@AngelaDSato you're sooooo brave for saying that. You win the internets! Upvote Upvote Upvote
"In every society that's ever existed, women have had privilege and protection that men did not."
Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree
Both men and women had special privileges but only if they kissed up to the patriarchs this is why men who transition to women get the shit beat out of them because they are no longer engaging in a system in which keeps the patriarchy in power so not only do they lose there male privilege they are also punished for this.
@@kittenmastermind660 Patriarchy is a social construct, carried by society at large (and more than 50% of society are women).
Also, the dictionary definition of the term "woman" is a human adult of female sex, used with the expectation of a minimun level of perceivable feminine gender; one cannot transition sex (only gender), therefore the term "woman" cannot apply. A "Woman's Hospital" is clearly not using the term to refer to the social gender, but to the biological sex, proving that "woman" is not merely a gender term in the English language.
@Iron Ostrich ah yes Patriarchy protects Women and Children, I have some things to say, first off most of the first civilizations made by humans were actually Matriarchal not Patriarchal and we're much less violent than later Patriarchal societies, also Women aren't protected, Women are told that they need to learn to protect themselves and not stand out in order to not be Raped, why is it that most people know a Woman that has been the victim of Sexual Assault Harassment or Rape when most people don't know Men that were the victims? Society tells women that they need to protect themselves from Men instead of Teaching men not to be dicks to Women. My own mother is discriminated against often because she's a Female with a PHD in Physics and works in a male saturated field, oftentimes she has to fix the shit her male coworkers screw up instead of her coworkers actually getting in trouble for not doing their jobs right.
@Iron Ostrich technically my Mom is the one with a PHD, I'm literally entering Highschool this year
@Iron Ostrich you know what I'm not going to listen to you and trust what actual scientists have to say on this subject, also why are you offering your opinions on me being Married and raising Children, I never asked for it and it's frankly a unwarranted intrusion into my personal life.
the hurtful truth is you can't fight sexism without fighting capitalism
Which is why fighting sexism through a conservative viewpoint is ridiculous. You're only going to be doing more harm than good
Tell that to ancient greece
@Tooo EZ sure mate
@Tooo EZ wow just rekt some feminists there bud...
Yes Andrew Jackson Jesse James. And Hitler did his relative so can we the bankers burned down Jessy James family's house and farm down cause they were mean Jesse sought revenge
Rich men: Send poor men to die in wars
MRAs: "Damn you, feminism!"
💯💯💯
The patriarchy is very good at hiding
You should read about the white feather, my friend
@@marvin2678 Yes, yes, some feminists have had bad stances. However, the white feather campaign was actually started by a military man & an anti-suffragist woman. It was not, as commonly represented, a feminist organization, it was created by powerful people to convince women (feminist or not) to target men. Other feminists opposed the moment.
I'm sorry, I can't get over how dumb this argument is. Even if the white feather campaign HAD been feminist-run, instead of the astroturfed military propaganda it actually was, this wouldn't change the fact that feminists didn't start the war, create the draft, or any of that. The white feather campaign was about passive-aggressively annoying people in public. It's ridiculous to act like that represents the power to send men to die in war.
As it stands, this seems like a trend I'm seeing a lot in the comments, where anything negative that women do is seen as representative of feminism while specific proof of feminist identification is required to consider women who did something positive a feminist contribution.
@@marvin2678 So you don't want men to die in wars. Why not abolish the draft and do as much as possible to de-escalate conflicts so no one has to die in wars?
Hello female soldier here! I have faced issues in my job for being a women, i am generalized with a few women who have screwed up lied about being ill to get out of hard work. I volunteer for hard work to show i am not one of them. But i have also had women put me down for my choice in career because it is a mans world.... I can't "win" in this world. I just want to do well in my job not be a political prop for either side.
You deserve your success, friend. You keep doing your best out there!
If you joined the US military you should be criticized for your choice to join such a terrible institution.
live your life. disregard haters. they are just mad that you are not a sex slave.
Thank you for your service. I’m not in the military, but I’m a member of a very male-dominated union. I understand the feeling of knowing that you are being watched and evaluated and judged and SEEN, and that nothing you do will ever be good enough. I wish you well.
@@anarchsnark how bout a simple thank you for your service? It’s a start, you piece of garbage. 🥰🥰🥰🥰
A lot of the struggles men face that they list are either a result of class and poverty, capitalism, outdated gender roles, or all three! We should certainly address the issues that men face - preferably by fighting the source (as opposed to trying to one-up women for some reason?)
Which one does genital integrity fall under?
Where did you get the idea that they're trying to "one up" women?
The source of gender roles is society at large, and more than 50% of society are made up of women. Who do you think educates their sons to become patriarchs and who is rewarding patriarchal / toxic masculine men with attention and affection?.
@@noahwilliams8996 from the main thesis that men have it the same as or worse than women. The whole movement is a reaction to feminism instead of their own thing. I think they could easily work together with feminists than fight against them because they seem to want very similar things
@@KangMinseok yes, but who has power in society? Who has been allowed to vote for longer? Who holds most of the political positions? Who has the power to change things? This is what we need to work on
For the male suicide thing it's also relevant to consider that men are generally more reluctant to seek help. This is also a result of traditional gender roles, which are challenged by feminism. MRA always acts like feminism is only about getting women into power.
You are ignoring material realities which play into it. Many men commit suicide because they lose their job and suddenly lose all purpose. Screwed over in divorce and can't see their children.
@@Nimish204 Then we can ask ourselves, why does the purpose of a male existence depend so heavily on his job? Is it, maybe, because of the stereotypical male gender role as the breadwinner?
Also, we can ask ourselves, why do courts so often decide in favour of women when it comes to custody of children? Does it, maybe, have something to do with the stereotypical female gender role as the caretaker?
You see, a lot of societal problems come from this gender stereotypes. If we want to solve these problems, it becomes imperative to challenge and dismantle those gender roles. Which is one of the core goals of feminist ideology. Feminism is not a fight against men, it's the search for a societal way forward.
This actually isn't true. In the united kingdom 91% of men who kill themselves do so despite being in frontline mental healthcare. the problem is mental healthcare does not cater to men.
3:00 >lists all of the problems with a patriarchal, capitalist society
> blames it on socialist females
Yeah, this whole documentary where they voice all these issues and statistics, I was wondering, "What does any of this have to do with women oppressing men, and feminism being pointless?"
Also, women had no say in the back then in the setup of the patriarchal and capitalist society, which makes this documentary even more pointless.
@@unholydiver1095 Women have had no say? Women have been the biggest voting block for decades, the biggest consumers for decades, controlled families and reproduction for decades, controlled sexuality for decades. And feminism has been a ubiquitous, dominant ideology for decades.
But neither bear any responsibility for anything.
Incidentally, "patriarchal, capitalist" is a dichotomy. Because capitalism is inherently individualist. Welfare is patriarchal, as it involves taking money and resources from men and giving it to women. Not to mention, there's the small issue of women desiring, and choosing, to enter the capitalist workforce, which had the effect of making it exponentially harsher. And the small fact of women being, by far, the biggest capitalist consumers.
But hey, accountability is "toxic masculinity".
Honestly, i think both men and women suffer heavily from gender roles. I've kinda been trying to move away from being called a feminist or egalitarian, though i do respect feminism as a historical movement. I'm just tired of the associations and the critiques are more valuable to me
The problem i have with people like the producers of this docu, is that they bring up men's issue as a counter to feminism, rather than two issues that can both be rooted to gender roles.
But that is a feminist position. This is what the entire toxic masculinity debate is about.
Sounds to me like you didn't watch this documentary.
Well said. Men's rights is inherently suspicious because if the way that they paint their problems as being because of, ignored by, or perpetuated by women (I should say the red pill philosophy as a whole) where as a lot of issues or bad behaviors are learned by women the same way they're learned by men. We're all just people, people. Feminism does the same thing to a lesser degree but does a much better job of addressing the systems that sometimes necessitate but always perpetuate and reward in some cases bad male behavior. Alaska out
The patriarchy hurts all.
@@SirAlaska It's quite obvious you and a lot of other people in this comment section have an extremely limited blank-slatist view of human nature and have never read any half-decent psychology books or you would realize the obvious flaw that "this is all just learned behaviour" as though the differences between men and women in regards to their behaviour and their choices (e.g. the draft) just magically appear out of thin air, as though they were divined by the Gods and evolution has nothing to do with the politics of today and the way society is run.
I've never understood the argument that compares middle class white women living a comfortable lifestyle to working class men with difficult and dangerous jobs. It's such an obvious false comparison. I watched that clip of Cassie saying she wouldn't want to be those guys, and I want to scream, "You wouldn't be those guys if you were a man! You'd be living just as comfy a life but probably just making more money! Argh!"
The thing is, they get one thing right. Patriarchy harms everyone. Men and women are negatively affected by the patriarchy. Thinking that men are more capable than women, and that they should be _strong_ and not show as much emotion, and that they shouldn't cry or be vulnerable or seek help from others, then that's really hecking terrible. As for women, it affects our abilities to have certain jobs and others perception of us doing the same things that men do all the time. Women have to work harder than men to live comfortably in the world in many cases and there is male privilege, which is very true. Saying that men have it worse than women is problematic and wrong, and we should be working towards equality, and not trying to put one gender above the other. (I really hope I'm phrasing my point properly and if anyone has anything else to add to my two cents please feel free to let me know because my thoughts are very scrambled and I don't know how I'm coming across)
Basically, patriarchy harms everyone which makes it even more important to dismantle it.
And devuating the issues to blame woman or feminist as if they aré causing them only serves to perpetuate those same problems. Cause it deviates the attention of the true causes and as consecuense solutions aré never offered.
@Rick Carter that still no excuse to exclude or take away the rights of a person. Not to mention that most of the thing we aré supposed to be better at aré invented or the difference is minimal.
All this talk of dismantling patriarchy, I'll not hold my breath waiting for it to happen and men's issues to be fixed,
Instead I'll keep supporting organisations that push for legal and policy reform to actually help with their issues, such as
Parity (general equality)
Split the difference (lobbying for sexual and physical violence support for male victims)
Honest Ribbon (lobbying for support for male victims of domestic violence)
Manchester survivors (supporting male victims of sexual violence)
National coalition for men (lobbing for general equalityl)
Men and boys coalition (lobbying for general equality)
Fathers4justice (lobbying for family court reform and providing specialist legal aid)
Justice for men and boys (same as above but more)
Mankind initiative (charity for male victims of domestic violence)
etc
Who do things such as, lobby for domestic violence charities for men to receive government funding and to open domestic violence shelters, abolish the duluth model, Pass a paternity leave bill, pass a split custody bill, create gender blind criminal courts and free men that have been incarcerated for shit like drug possession or not paying child support, abolish the draft, give men the option of paper abortions, change the definition of rape so it includes female on male sexual violence, so women who prey on underage boys can be charged with rape would get at least the minimum charge of four years instead of 3 months, support male victims of domestic and sexual violence, etc See anything you disagree with?
@@connorp3030 honestly some of them are the same as MRA.
@@kiriki4558 I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
So if death rates are the measure, when women were routinely dying in child birth, did we have it worse then?
How do we quantify all the women who are the casualties of war? All the women who are routinely gang raped and assaulted by soldiers by almost every nation and time.
Does having protections matter if you aren’t considered a person, can’t vote, or decide who you marry and consent to sex?
I don't think anyone would disagree with the claim that women have it harder than men in non-Western countries.
It's not like protecting a person, but an asset, a property.
Why does it have to be about who has it worse? If someone steals $1,000 from you and $500 from me, we both got ripped off and we both have a right to complain about that.
Stop playing the oppression olympics and start examining the real problems in society.
If someone is actually saying that women don't have problems, then by all means I'll agree that they are full of shit, but that's no excuse to ignore the actual issues that men face. People's propensity to ignore said issues is, in of itself, an issue and a direct result of misandry.
Are you trying to make a contest of trauma in war time? War is when humans revert back to be snarling primates. The trauma of rape is just as bad as seeing people you have bonded get killed in front of your eyes.
Perri Lewis What are you even talking about? The whole point of MRA is that they have it worst because of death rates, I’m pointing out that it’s not a very intelligent argument, because you could have made a similar agrument for women. Death rates alone aren’t a valid point. No where am I saying it’s worse, nor would I even bring it up if it weren’t being made a point by a bunch of men who want to feel like they’re oppressed because women are gaining rights and access to things only allowed to men.
7:06 "Women are more likely to be single mothers"
Can't argue with that joel
I think he meant single parents lol
@@roniyarose9470 I was making a joke
@@seandevine5836 I thought you might've but it's also hard to tell sometimes online.
Amazing that the biggest men’s rights arguments would be solved with actual feminist solutions
Too bad feminists don't actually lobby for and implement them then :/
@@connorp3030 I’m not sure if youre aware, but there aren’t too many feminists in positions of high power. You don’t usually get vast wealth or power by being a good person
@@connorp3030 We just had 4 years of Donald Trump and Republicans, along with conservative Democrats, are doing as much as possible to block those policies. There isn't much feminists can do at this point
@@mattwong5403 how many years of BooBama did we have before that? Neither gender- nor race relations improved under him.
@@KangMinseok He's a democrat, not a leftist. Learn the difference.
3:06
During the Industrial Revolution, women an children were some of the most oppressed people in the urban landscape. They were made to work long, grueling hours for little pay (significantly less than men working the same jobs might I add), and sometimes even on hands and knees as a submission to the directors overseeing the factory work. Women (and kids) were also made to work in coal mines with men, too, where women had to pull heavy carts of coal.
Women, except for those born into rich families or otherwise, have always worked. So that argument is bullshit.
Very rare few and non feminist ones yes like 1%
@@jamesdelk8926 bro even in the 40s in America where the concept of the housewife was invented and a lot more pressure was put on women to conform in reaction to the gains made in ww2, 40 percent of women worked
@@DimT670 yes but temporary feminism came and went over these years eighties and 90s ongoing andd those that worked were non feminist probably cause husbands were in war so yes they did Germans had non feminist in army to keep feminist out of work force they did not controll men's prisons and men women's back then it was women's women's prisons men men's in america though men did women and men's they should have hired non feminist to hire women to do women's back then and men men's to day it's mixed in male prisons from feminist and women's prisons males double standard and 16 year old girls are police and those guards now advertise they could be 16 to application while in highschool then finish college men have to wait till they finish both to join there were girls in late eighties and quater less than one percent that were seventeen compare to adult women that's what women and girls mean in policing and military etc meaning women and teen girls
And peasant (so majority of societies) women worked on the fields just as hard as men for centuries and no one cared they are pregnant or literal kids
Her monologue ignores the fact that the men who are “used to advance society” aren’t the men who are written about in history books
do you think the people who invented Jesus are written in the history books? Or people who control everything in general?
@@deltaxcd Yes, and I don't see why you wouldn't think that unless you believe unfounded conspiracy theories
@@KristofskiKabuki
This is not a conspiracy. people who control everything for real atypically stay in the shadow simply to avoid blame in case of failure. Being a king yourself is a prety bad idea it is better to be someone behind the king.
Why else do you think priests invented some abstract god or even use a slave to be a god rather than proclaiming themselves as gods like before?
Do you know that for example police got one extremely powerful mafia boss and that guy was a completely invisible old man living in a cheap apartment in some small town? Nobody Could even imagine that this grandpa is the leader of the most powerful mafia organization in the region.
And we actually do not know anything about people who wrote books about Jesus or Moses and we will never know it. we can only guess from their writing style.
@@deltaxcd The idea that there is a shady cabal behind the people who appear to be in power who actually control things is definitely a conspiracy theory
@@KristofskiKabuki
Not a shady cabal bust just shady individuals who actually do all thinking. And it is not a conspiracy but a fact which is known to everyone.
People in power rarely have any real power as well, because they have to cater to the desires of their supporters and without supporters.
You can be a leader only if people are willing to follow you.
we gotta look at things as a whole. its not us vs them its us both men and women vs the problem.
StaySkeptic, because they don't believe the same things, despite what this video and ppl in the comments are claiming.
Because If MRAs actually cared about these issues they would be feminists. These issues all stem from patriarchy and toxic masculinity, and most feminists do agree that these are problems, these are FEMINIST issues that are constantly discussed by feminists.
But all MRAs want is to use these issues to undermine feminism and attack women. They completely ignore women issues, because they don’t care about gender equality and abolishing gender roles, in fact, they love gender roles and view women as subhuman, just look at any mra/redpill forum if you want proof of that!
Tiffany, you may mean well but you're perpetuating this unproductive us VS them mentality. How about instead of insisting that everyone adopt the feminist label and painting MRA collectives as the enemy, you take a good hard look at this broad cultural divide and think of a way to cross it?
Cipher well said. I think a lot of the reasons can be found in what Big Joel points out in the video as creating a reductionist dialogue in the firsf place. When feminists try to explain how sexism against men can be traced back to sexism against women, it is often taken as an attempt to spark a pissing contest about who has it worse. This Backfire Effect is difficult to address.
+
A rich white woman: Women have it great, actually
Working class men being oppressed is a problem of class. It’s shocking how little this is acknowledged. These class struggles unite men and women - the problems are shared. Class consciousness is a major factor in helping to solve these issues.
How is huge bias against men in the criminal justice system a problem of class?
Nothing has destroyed class consciousness like feminism and identity politics, nothing.
Because to talk about class and how that this is at the heart of it an issue of class would mean that someone like Cassie a rich privileged white woman would have to step back and see that she is part of the problem. It's much easier to blame feminism than the systemic issues she benefits from.
I looked it up, there are still *a ton* of positions women can’t have in the military on the account of their gender
@Circe Sauce Like anything requiring serious physical strength. The military decreased training difficulty to accomodate female performance being lower.
@@elelyon431 From what I've heard, physical demands of a modern soldier are somewhat less than back when they faced hand-to-hand combat as infantry. Or at least this is the justification for lower training standards that have been necessitated by the lack of big, buff volunteer recruits (both male and female). The US military has had a _lot_ of trouble getting people to sign up to die in some pointless overseas war for crappy pay. Who'd have guessed?
I think physical strength is not really the reason, its more that alot of military roles are deeply designed to accommodate the needs of men and not women, and It would cost alot extra to accommodate for even the basic the needs of women
@@durjam3734 I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about the expense of "the needs of women." We're women, not aliens. We have the same basic needs as men.
@@jospinner1183 I mean like you'd you want separate showers, dorms, etc?
But yeah maybe not, idk but I'm sure they'll be some rational reason, and not just sexism
"We die for you guys!", as though all those deaths on his stupid poster were noble sacrifices in the service of womens' needs.
Many of those soldiers went and raped civilian women lmao...men like that do not care about women and they use the "protecting women" line just to add insult to injury so they can feel good about themselves while ruining the world we live in.
@Rick Carter first of all you don't know me so don't predict what I would do. However, of course I would want anyone near me who could help me in a bad situation to do so. I wouldn't stand by and let him get attacked, either. That's called loving your family and friends. You should probably start doing that or else you'll die alone. Also, who would be attacking me, causing the situation? A woman? Oh, no, women almost never attack each other or anyone. It would be a man with a sexual motive. What was your point again?
@Rick Carter I said "almost never." Compare men attacking women to women attacking women crime statistics. I'm not talking about petty fights. Would you count every bar fight between two men as some horrific act of violence? I'm talking about actual criminal intent to harm. That's going to almost always be a male perp. FBI crime statistics are free to see if you don't believe me. But something tells me you don't want to learn...
I also love how you didn't address any of my other points because you have no argument.
@Rick Carter yes, of course. I think all children should still be prioritized, but I don't believe that women's lives are more valuable than men's. Why would they be?
@UC489t7IlvVKQ0cokK15w2iQ that's funny...men often pressure women into abortions and put them into unsafe situations that are highly motivating for abortion. The pro-life movement is led by women and championed by women. Men are vastly outnumbered within it. And most abortion doctors are male. What was your point about abortion again?
To quote Dave Chappelle, "you can't do comparative suffering". We shouldn't be trying to blame everyone else for our problems, we should be trying to make our lives better. It's true that society doesn't exactly treat men in a considerate way, but women didn't do that. Usually it's just more powerful men. This whole "look at how bad I have it" game that people do isn't helping anyone.
The fact it’s called meninism rather than masculinism hurts my soul.
it's not called meninism, lol, that's a 4chan parody movement of feminism, it's called the men's rights movement, because that's what it's about.
It's called losers unwilling to put women in their place.
@Tooo EZ I just think it sounds dumb
@Tooo EZ You clearly do care though. Like I’m just talking for the language of it
"women have had privileges and protections men did not" you know like the privilege to not own property or yourself and the protection of society turning a blind eye to any form of domestic violence
@Mike Tind Bringing up ... domestic violence is ... petty? 😂😂😂 ok
@Mike Tind Honey men and women are not enemies. You have a problem with gender roles? Lets attack those ideas not each other. Men put up a system that harmed men and women, go figure. Women have adapted to this system over hundreds and thousands of years. If you think men are mistreated and immediately attack women and not society, you are just a misogynist. If you think we're both suffering, work with us not against us.
@Mike Tind 😂 The thing is, MRA whole's thing is an oppressive game and its bizarre because y'all have owned us. Men used to own us like property. So like ??? Stop telling us to shut up so you can speak? Mad about war? Who starts wars? Mad about labor deaths? Who installed capitalism and disregard for human life for profit? But honestly, I don't wanna talk to you either. Who would?
No, like the privilege of being given priority along with children in times of crisis (e.g. getting first dibs on lifeboats when The Titanic was sinking while the men were left to die) or being spared the ‘male privilege’ of being used as cannon fodder in times of war in order to protect the best interests of the country.
@@1st_b Sweetie go back and read, the Titanic was an oddity, normally only men survived sea disasters and the cannon fodder is strictly a poor people thing, at the same time in history women were treated MUCH worse i.e. the whole being property thing I mentioned... I'm sorry but men don't have a case, I love y'all but unless you're a male in a minority group, no discrimination has ever happened... the only point I'm willing to even concede a little bit on is circumcision and even that is iffy as uncircumcised penises often get infected and an adult circumcision is torturous, I watched my brother-in-law go through it and it didn't look fun. EDIT: I totally forgot to mention that men actually DO have a problem in obtaining custody of their children, men actually ARE being discriminated against for being men in these cases and this does need to be fixed
As a guy, I support some of the notions put forward by MRA because yeah, there are unfair societal standards placed on men, especially in the low to middle class.
But don't think for a damn second I'm going to marginalize what women go through. Yeah I want my life to be better, but I still recognize there are people a lot worse off, and even if I'm going to support a better life for myself and those like me, I also want to support better lives for those who are unlike me.
As a matter of interest, there is a word for that! The lines have blurred but historically, "men's rights" has tended to refer to the assertion that men are oppressed by women uniquely, and that women are in fact the dominant and privileged class, whereas "men's liberation" has typically referred to those who generally agree on the existence of patriarchy, but are more concerned about the way it presents itself in the male experience. Essentially, a definitional feminist (believes in equality between the sexes), but who is concerned with the ways in which men can be emancipated from gender-based repression and on occasion, oppression.
I personally think bringing these terms back as distinct entities is a good move. There are legitimate complaints and concerns about the male experience in the modern day! And addressing them is in fact complementary with mainline feminism, and there's no shame in them getting time and space. There is only shame in the assertion that men's rights must come at the expense of women, which is the fallacy a lot of the nastier MRA arguments fall into. And having a codified way to distinguish between those positions at a glance would be very helpful in defining positions upfront
It's almost like everyone has problems and we should all help each other instead of blaming each other.
This, people would be better off if they just laid off the koolaid they call politics.
The problem with men's rights activists is they want to raise awareness of all these issues and then offer no legitimate strategies to solve said issues
And feminism addresses those issues. It's about gender oppression - not solely women. The third wave of feminism that people like to complain about? That was when intersectionality was popularized. Intersectionality accounts for all social identity factors: ethnicity, socioeconomic status, gender, etc.,
Why MRAs would only isolate men's issues and frame them in contrast to feminism? To breed division - ultimately undermining progress towards gender equality.
Is it frustrating or pitiful that they get so close to understanding, but then just turn it into men vs women? I can't tell. Either way, these people all drive me crazy!
Seems like it's both. It's also somewhat enlightening to see that capitalism has so thoroughly brainwashed so many not to pay attention to class that those who are all about the problems men face do not consider that those problems are only faced by working class men and they face those problems because the capitalist class exploits them.
When do they actually turn it into a men vs women thing? People are already sympathetic to women's issues, so they make the argument that some issues affect men just as much as some issues affect women, so we should be sympathetic.
@@connorp3030 way to publicly showcase that you either did not watch the video or read any of the comments before deciding to comment, or way to publicly showcase that you are incapable of comprehending things in general.
"Women are more likely to be single mothers"
I just found that quote funny. It's like the "every 60 seconds a minute passes in africa".
If lack of risk in one's life and freedom from responsibility makes a group "better off", then a Labrador retriever is better off than the average man.
Honestly a great point
You need to be able to choose, not be forced to
I think the point is more that options can be desirable even when they’re harmful. Things are more complicated than “bad thing is bad”
I see where you're coming here. If the red pill makes any good point, it's that just because you have a choice, that doesn't make the choice liberative.
(but we'll see how that logic holds up later in the film haha)
So her feminism is actually high middle classes class consciousness? Ok.
9:32 not to mention that over 70% of people killed in WW2 were civilians (not including the holocaust), looking only at “military deaths” in war ignores mass civilian casualties among women.
„We have to protect you. We die for you!!!“
„Well we WANT to be soldiers. Let us be soldiers!“
*operating system crashes*
The Red Pill: how Cassie Jaye stopped being a bad feminist and started being a bad MRA.
Can you elaborate? How was she a bad feminist?
@@ThePharphis You could simply listen to what she has to say on the subject. It's been a while since so I can't remember an exact quote, though I'm sure I could find one, but I remember thinking that her criticisms of herself were pretty on point and that they revealed that her position as a "feminist" wasn't because she really understood the statistics or anything, but simply because as a woman she was in favour of a movement that seemed to be ostensibly pro-women, in the same way that many of the "MRA" types seem to be happy to follow the movement simply because they're men and the movement is ostensibly pro-men. (typo edit)
Well by that standard aren't almost all feminists "bad feminists" because they don't know the statistics outside of the earnings gap? (which they sometimes misrepresent as a wage gap)
@@ThePharphis Well, it's not like I have statistics on how much feminists understand about the world, so it's hard to say. But do yourself a favour and have a poke around in the femism subreddit. You'll find many feminists who know a lot more than Cassie Jaye on these subjects, and they could probably teach you a lot about the wage/earnings/whatever-you-want-to-call-it gap as well.
I think this is the best comment on here
I've been raped, threatened, harassed, and beaten both as a child and as an adult - violence perpetrated by men. I can not see why some people think that this means I am blind to male issues, and that somehow I don't support males who are victimized. There are some extreme issues that I think both males and females NEED to address, like the horrible climate we live in where male victims of sexual assault are ostracized and it's disgusting. That is one issue I'd love to start addressing, while also addressing the fact that males are overwhelmingly the assailant in violent against women AND men. We must tackle the issue together.
Also...wtf... Do these men realize that women weren't even allowed by societal norms and by law to have the types of jobs they are complaining about being a male-centric profession.
jisatsu
Anecdotal evidence logical fallacy
They're complaining about those social norms. I don't know how you missed that.
@@jonathanrandall4140 OK you're an idiot. That wasn't even a fucking anecdote. As a male sexually assaulted by other men, I'm still not hlind to men's issues.
You were probably asking for it
@@Digitaldreamer7 so if someone was dressed a certain way or "asked for it" in some other way, they deserve to be raped and assaulted? At what point do we hold people to a higher standard? Or should we just keep saying shit like well they deserved it so 🤷🏼♀️
As a former service member I have to express that women face a disgusting amount harassment, assault, and oppression. Men dying in war isn’t a fact of men being oppressed but of governing bodies using its subjects to achieve a goal.
☝🏾
This. At the end of the day, the problems are not really of gender though that's a part of it but of classism and who truly has power. Most of the men I know who went into the military did so to have a chance out of poverty. Almost none of them did so out of a feeling of pride in america. It was about getting out of poverty
About 8% of servicewomen report they’ve been sexually assaulted. And it’s estimated that only about 20% of servicewomen who have been sexually assaulted report it.
And we have mandatory training every single year on what is sexual assault and how to be an active bystander to help prevent it.
Women in the military might not be dying in combat to the extent men are, but they are being sexually assaulted in horrific numbers.
Heh wondered if you changed your tune after Russia invaded Ukraine considering men are not allowed by law to leave the country and are forced to stay and die solely because of what lies between their legs.
Men dying in war is oppression.
Ah, conservatism. Advocating against solving problems since year one.
"Men are not THE oppressed gender, they are A oppressed gender"- Doctor Randomercam
an, but yeah. I don't feel like MRA's are saying we're the only oppressed gender, just that feminism mostly talks about female issues, and that we have issues that need to be talked about as well.
No they aren't. Any "oppression" men face is from ideas that other men created and other men enforce. Suicide rates in men are so high because of the idea that men don't show weakness, men don't cry, men are too strong to ask for help, exc. Showing weakness and crying is perceived as feminine, which is seen as inherently bad for men to be because of the idea that women are inherently inferior. These ideas literally exist because of sexism, and many of the people who exert violence against "weak" men are also men.
Oppression is about a group exerting power over the other, and it makes no sense to say men are oppressing men. Men have never been second class citizens for their gender. Men are not oppressed systemically for their gender. Men have interpersonal struggles, many of which are based around struggling to reach the high standards of masculinity. But those standards were set by men, and at their root are based around perceiving women as lesser.
Feminism talks about female issues, because women are literally oppressed. Not just in interpersonal situations, but systematically. Many feminist issues also benefit men because they seek to dismantle the toxic ideas that hurt women and make men resistant to showing human weakness. But it literally doesn't have to mention that it helps men, because it doesn't have to be about men. it doesn't have to include men openly. Feminism is literally centered around women, and men are the reason why women are oppressed in the first place, so they don't have to cater to men like that.
MRA's spend so much time talking about issues pertaining to men, but always overlook the reasons why they happen, and I don't believe this is always by accident. I don't suppose it helps your cause to claim that men are oppressed while saying, "oh yeah and men are expected not to show weakness so they aren't too womenly lol"
@@hithere5039 With all due respect, but I think pretending these are problems created by men because it makes for such a nice argument is just stupid. Gender issues basically always stem from how society looks at what a certain gender ought to be. This has never been and will never be onesided, as in men doing the oppression and women being the oppressed. You even say it yourself: " and many of the people who exert violence against "weak" men are also men". Yeah, many. So what are the others? Women. So I don't quite understand why you are trying so hard to make a point of men being the reason why men feel oppressed when it's quite clearly society's view on the different genders. And society also includes women, if that wasn't obvious enough.
Like women can have these prejudices too but like are you saying that women somehow co-opted the origin for the beliefs that men need to be stronger and women are weaker? Internalized misogyny is a thing, and having internalized bigotry is not an excuse to hurt others, but these ideas came from men in the first place. Being raised in a society that tells you these ideas will raise people who believe it, including women, but are you really gonna compare some women having unanalyzed internalized misogyny and weaponizing against men as instructed by male bigotry and men having no internalized anything and just hating women so much they project it upon men that don't perform masculinity enough? And the main perpetrators of violence against "weak" men have always been men in the first place, yes, which is very relevant to the conversation because MRA's will say men are oppressed but ignore who in fact is doing most of the oppressing in the first place.
Women who perpetuate these bigotries have always been informed by men, because men are still the originators of these ideas and the main perpetrators. "But women are bigots too" doesn't change anything, because I never claimed women have never ever echoed toxic views based on having to perform masculinity a certain way. But are you really gonna claim that men somehow are only 50/50 responsible for the ideas of toxic masculinity or that women have a significant impact on the ideas that men have to be aggressive/dominant/exc when those same views often directly hurt women
Yea, imo most oppression mentioned comes from class anyway, not gender. They make some pretty faulty arguments there. Uuuh poor men have it worse than rich women. No sh** Sherlock.
It seems all of the worst aspects of society are an indirect result of class struggle: military industrial complex, income disparity, neo-slavery, corporatism... It's just terrible.
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Social constructs like patriarchy are not the outcome of class, they are the outcome of culture. And culture is the product of all it's members, including the over 50% of women that make up our society..
I remember when there was a proposal to include women in the draft, some of the harshest criticisms were from Christian conservatives because it went against traditional gender roles. Why don't MRAs ever come down on them rather than on feminists who are usually against the draft for everyone?
We tend to do, its just that we get pushback from both sides. Traditionalists and Feminists are one and the same. Tradcons want men to sacrifice for women and Feminists want men to sacrifice for women. Also feminists were never against the draft for men. At best they were indifferent to it. I remember back to the White Feather brigade as a means to shame men (boys as well) who weren't in the army to join.
Because they superficially vote for them or the MRAs use it as a cover for their hatred of women. The better solution is that the state should not force its citizens to die in wars they don’t agree with.
@@pickyphysicsstudent201 You would be surprised to know how feminists hate TRADITIONAL gender roles.
You know, one big thing that these "men are treated as disposable" arguments miss is that the messaging from governments and society encouraging men to go into those fields to begin with, valorizing war, politics, or dangerous industrial jobs... That messaging is also given to women, who are encouraged to see those things as noble but told they aren't cut out to actually do them, making them internalize the idea that they're less deserving of praise. Not only that, but the MRA stances seem keen on making men look like the bigger victims because of that push from nationalism and/or capitalism, but they neither want to make those jobs available to women (because they think they'd do worse at them, hint hint), nor do they want those positions to stop being valorized - they're just using all of it as a cudgel to say "we sacrifice so much, we deserve to be treated better, and women haven't 'earned' the right to complain about their problems because we don't see them as being as important". It's so transparently bullshit from the word go.
It's like the bicycle meme where the guy puts a stick in his bike wheel and blames someone else. What I also don't understand is the MRA's point. They say that men are oppressed and seemingly blame it on women?
Because w men make up over half of society and therefore have a heavy hand in the creation and maintenance of social constructs like patriarchy / gender roles and in rewarding patriarchal and toxic-masculine behavior. Imagine all w men would decide to not reward power-hungry capitalist men with attention and affection, how fast do you think patriarchy would be defeated?.
Plot twist, everyone's life sucks
Ha!
Almost like the systhem is set up that way?
For real we all got problems.
@@jzblue345 I'm not trolling you, we are doomed under capitalism
@Ganga Din do you say that to starving Ethiopian children as well?
Also fun fact: Mainstream circumcision was thanks to a guy who just hated masturbation. He also advocated women use acid on the vagina. Which sounds super painful.
They just want to complain without actually doing something. Because solving it would take away their ability to jump into a role of victimhood.
Your comment is contradicted by the content of the documentary, in which some MRAs said that their initiatives were shut down by feminist institutions. So they are actually trying to solve the problems they're talking about, not just complaining.
@Timmy L Unless I'm mistaken, the documentary did mention one MRA tried to open a support group for male rape victims but was shut down by feminist organizations.
The point is that the documentary does have examples of people trying to solve some of the problems they're talking about, not just complaining.
@Timmy L
1. I didn't say any "movement" should stop because of one incident (beside the point that only one incident is presented in the documentary. The point is to ask ourselves if it doesn't happen more often, or if it won't happen again. It's just the audacity of reproaching to MRAs that they aren't doing anything to solve the problems they were talking about, when in fact they did try, and were shut down by people likely to give them shit for complaining about problems without doing anything about it).
Maybe they are trying again. Have you known about the incident mentioned before the documentary got out? It seems their activism doesn't get media attention beyond complaints and sexism coming from MRAs. If they were to do something constructive, would the press comment on it, when they could get more clicks if they post print screens of sexist tweets?
So do you know they aren't trying again? Or are you just assuming they aren't trying because nothing is being reported?
2. Ideas ought to be judged independently of the people who spout them. Just because a lot of self-identifying MRAs are paying lip service to MRA ideas to spout their misogynistic toxicity online doesn't invalidate the problems men are facing in society. Just like the problems of women are not invalidated by self-identifying feminists paying lip service to feminist ideas to spout their misandrist toxicity online.
The bad rap of MRA makes me think that there's an over-representation of people using MRA to be sexist and an under-representation of people who genuinely want to solve some issues.
@Timmy L Yeah, I agree with the points you're raising. Especially that MRAs focus too much on misogyny and not at all on the activism part of "men's rights activism". I have seen that /r/MensLib covers the men's rights and male issues without the misogyny. Don't hang much around there, so I wouldn't tell you about the solutions.
As to why MRA/MGTOW/whatever didn't exist before feminism movements, I can think of some reasons. The first of which was that without feminism there was no context introduced that facilitated the paradigm of gender issues. Men's issues before feminism were just worker's issues, and there certainly was activism for worker's rights, there were strikes to lower the number of working hours, there were the Luddites... When men are at the forefront of society, it makes sense for women's rights to be introduced as something different (at least at first), but men's issues were just seen as issues, so consequently people fighting them didn't point out they were males; it was just assumed.
@Timmy L It could be that mental health issues were generally less understood overall at the time, so people didn't know how to go about addressing it. And again, the concept of "toxic masculinity" couldn't exist without feminism; in fact I doubt the concept of toxicity as a person existed back then. The issue is nuanced, and there's no cut and dry answer, and it seems in bad faith to say that men's rights is just an excuse to be anti-women because it didn't exist before feminism.
I'd very much like to know the answer to your questions. Just as I'd like to know why is feminism such a recent movement, when women have been treated as second class citizens for millennia.
7:06 - "Women are more likely to be single mothers."
About 100% more likely actually.
Lol very true
He probably meant to say "single parents" :D
That isn't true when the focus is on "single" and not "mother".
Conway79 Unless you consider FtM to be women? I guess?
Women are single mothers by choice. Women initiate the overwhelming majority of divorce and have far superior reproductive rights. Men can be trapped into parenthood, but women cannot. The "deadbeat dad" is largely a myth. Most of these men are victims of parental alienation, and the notion that all single mothers are innocent victims of circumstance is ignorant as hell
An important point to make at 9:20 - civilians also die in war. And since WW2 onwards, they have died in staggering numbers. 55 million civilians died during WW2. The idea that women don't die in conflict is preposterous.
cchdz
Just concentrating on military personal when talking about modern warfare is cherry picking.
Dead soldiers *do not* dwarf that number in modern conflicts. More civilians than soldiers died in WW2, Vietnam and the most recent Iraq conflict. Even if they did mean direct conflict, then that's a terrible metric to use, because the issue at hand is whether society is worse for men or women.
Civilian casualties aren't just collateral, or a product of "targeting factories". Many conflicts feature indiscriminate mass slaughter, where factions don't care about the civilian/military distinction of their opponents. Even among Western armies, there has been a concerted effort to water down the formerly clear terms of who is and isn't a combatant. And for the victims, the "collateral" distinction matters not a jot. What do they care if their sibling was killed in or out of uniform?
Viewing soldiers as the main or proper "targets" of modern warfare is incredibly inaccurate, and doing so implies either total ignorance of the nature of war, or a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the issue.
yeah I saw that and couldn't help but think how baldly disingenuous is it to focus only on soldiers as if rape of women hasn't been a tool of war throughout human history, including in Vietnam.
Importantly, death is not the only consequence of war. Rape, lack of access to schooling and healthcare, scarcity of food and clean water, and mental trauma are all severe consequences of war, and female civilians and children are affected different from adult male civilians, who have a higher degree of personal and economic freedom. Women and children often have a harder time escaping war than men, especially single men. Only thinking about soldiers as victims of war is a uniquely American-Imperialist perspective, since the USA has fought plenty of nations but hasn't experienced a war on its own soil in over a century.
Rape wasn't just a consequence but a strategy in multiple wars, even modern ones, civil wars in particular.
Avoiding the ‘concentration of wealth’ angle is really telling in this piece, it speaks to the goal of the film.
I just don’t think that this movie considers that men created these gender roles and expectations. Women weren’t allowed or given the power to decide this so it just confuses me because it’s like if men are oppressed it’s because men oppress men of yknow what I’m saying
See that’s the thing, everyone’s all focused on arguing against each other over who has it worse, but we’re all f’ed in our own ways
I was working in a mine and... Surprise! Women would love to work at the mine and we implemented a program to give them opportunity, demand was on the roof. Actually many of the jobs with high mortality are better paid than a job with similar education requirements, that's why there are rarely lack of people wanting those jobs.
Ironically I think the affirmative action thing is seen as oppression and discrimination to men as well though even though apparently in this case it's doing men a favor by keeping them away from dangerous job.
Yeah I used to live in a fishing town here in Scotland and women have had a long tradition of working at the fish and while it wasn't out on the boats it was doing everything else once the fish were off the boats (gutting salmon, shucking clams etc...) and when I started I joined the women doing this because they got paid more but I found that standing still except for slicing an insanely sharp knife as fast as you can (since you got paid extra the more fish/clams you did) for 12hrs in the freezing wet and cold was very difficult and dangerous, 1 wrong move and you lost your finger, so I chickened out and asked to be moved to work as a labourer instead, which was back breaking work as the sacks of shells and ice were stupidly heavy and I got paid less but I found it wasn't as hard as what the women were doing. I've no doubt half those women would have been out on the boats too if things had been different. Everyone is different, some people can do things that others can't, I was just 16-18 at the time and then I found my calling as a baker (like half my family who also worked in bakeries, I should have saw that as a sign I guess lol), it doesn't matter if your a man or a woman but what you as a person can or are willing to do but we have to let everyone make that choice
Who in their right mind would „love to work in a mine”?
Yeah, I’m a skinny person who physically just can’t lift objects over 100 lbs, at all. I can barely manage moving 50 lb objects a couple of feet regularly. I also have an extremely feminine name. There’s a reason I don’t apply at many construction companies because they’ll put stuff like “must be able to lift and carry 75 lbs regularly” and “DO YOU HAVE GRIT?!” And if they didn’t need someone who can do that intensity of physical labor, I would still consider, but most women who could manage the physical labor would very likely be dismissed out of hand at a place that’s got all the intensity of promoting values that are typically associated with masculinity where the company is.
Who the fuck works in mines ?
I thought we had left that some decades ago .
absolutely nothing is funnier to me than people going through the MRA's talking points and just..... calmly discussing and explaining how every single issue they bring up could be solved - would be solved - SHOULD be solved via leftist, feminist, and otherwise 'diverse' or 'progressive' politics and activism.
nothing is funnier. its like a comedy routine. genuinely.
watching the MRA men being sooooooooo close to getting it....... being sooooo close to a good idea, to logic, to realising that we arent the enemy and we do want to help, and then just......... missing the point entirely so they can keep being misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist, ableistic, etc assholes who shout shit like "NOT MY GUNS" and "NEVER A WOMAN PRESIDENT" like guys........... we're right here, you're so close.
Nothing is funnier to me, as a gay man, then seeing a woman thinking she has anything of worth or constructive to say about men’s rights. ☕
@@day_jahvoo606 glad to know you think that “male suicides numbers are a serious issue and should be addressed” and “men should be viewed and treated as 3 dimensional people with valid thoughts, feelings and struggles instead of as vicious, potential-rapists-in-waiting monsters” are thoughts that I have, as a gay trans dude, that lack any worth/value, and are in no way constructive, simply because I have a pink feminine looking avatar for my account, and my username isn’t specifically a male name 🙄 just say you lack critical reading/thinking skills and go away lol
@@doctorwholover1012 Well of course I do cupcake! Can’t say the same about you, however, considering y’know, none of those quotations were ever stated in your original comment.
My apologies for assuming you were a woman however, you can never be to careful! In that case, I suppose I should reiterate…
There is nothing funnier than seeing a gay trans dude delude himself into thinking that feminism is in his side in any manner ☕
@@day_jahvoo606 feminism has done 1000x more for me as a person than MRAs have ever even tried to. Most of them want me dead for being trans or gay. Because they’re mostly homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, etc assholes, who want me to shut up and go back to the kitchen or suck their dicks like a “proper woman” should, instead of playing at being a man, when they don’t want me dead.
Meanwhile feminists want me to get help for my depression on my own terms, advocate for me being able to use public bathrooms, and yanno, want me to be alive? Or at least have no desire to see me dead 🤷
Sue me for seeing group A, the MRA, who are a literal threat to my safety and well-being, but are the same gender as me, and group B, the feminists, who want me to be alive, safe, and respected within society, but are mostly not my gender, and going “yeah, I’d rather hang out with group B, for what should be obvious reasons”
@@doctorwholover1012 MRAs aren’t a threat to your safety, sugar. I think you’re quite well aware of how little power they have in any social, economic, or political spheres, so it’s not like they can actually do anything beyond slurs.
Feminists, however, have raped gay men, blocked access for trans people to use public restrooms, and reinforce toxic masculinity on a daily basis.
Sue me for seeing group A, the one who views my issues as a gay man as secondary or nonexistent, and group B, the one who actually recognizes the lack of men’s basic human rights and going “yeah I’d rather hang out with group B, for obvious reasons.” ;) ☕
Ooooff the point at 5:05 about laborers being mistreated while being told that their labor is both necessary and heroic hits a little different knowing how things panned out during COVID...
One argument from the film that I find particularly misguided is the one which states that because men make up the majority of victims of combat deaths, workplace fatalities... etc, that men are therefore inherently disadvantaged. And should be respected for the fact that they take on these risks FOR "you guys", as in women, as the one person in the video said.
I don't dispute the statistics. But consider for a moment why those statistics are the way they are. Why do men make up a large majority of combat deaths? Could it be because, until quite recently, women weren't legally allowed to participate in combat (*in most if not all western countries)? You could perhaps argue that the fact that women don't participate in combat is a product of the fact that they don't want to; If it were true that they had a choice in the manner. But the plain fact is that even if women wanted to participate in combat, they were not allowed to. They weren't afforded the freedom to choose to sacrifice for their country in the same way that men are. So creditting men, generally speaking, for sacrificing their lives for their families, is a misleading argument that leaves out the context of why this is the case to begin with. We cannot give men credit for doing something that women don't when you don't even give women the choice to do those things. It may well be true that if those preexisting circumstances that prevent women from serving never existed to begin with, that men would still fulfill most combat roles. But when you don't even allow women to try, you can't give men credit for fulfilling those roles instead of women. It's just a dishonest argument (in the philosophical sense).
The same goes for workplace fatalities. A woman with the same qualifications as a Male counterpart is less likely to get a call back after submitting a job application. With that bias in place, we can't logically give men the credit for taking dangerous jobs that women *won't* do, because there exists an extra hurdle that women who want to do those jobs have to step over just to get those jobs in the first place. Again, we have a case where it may well be that men would still make up more workplace deaths than women if this culturally enforced hiring discrimination didn't exist to begin with. But we cannot say that this is definitively true when our society makes it hard for women to get those jobs to begin with. It's just not a logically sound argument.
When the woman in the video admits that "I wouldn't want to be in those positions", she isn't supporting the argument that men deserve credit as a group for being in those positions. The fact is that most people don't want to be in combat roles. Which is why we had a draft for the Vietnam war, WW2, Korea... etc. The cast majority of those people who died would have rather been doing something else. And that fact doesn't change depending on the soldiers gender. Most soldiers who died for America didn't have a choice. They were drafted. And if the government would have allowed women to be drafted, you bet your ass men wouldn't be 99.9% of combat deaths.
If you don't want to die in a dangerous job well then don't choose a dangerous job! Seriously it's not the same as military drafts...
@@madattaktube Yeah, that is the reason. But then afterwards, to have it thrown in your face that women didn't serve, when they didn't have a choice, is real fucking stupid
Your point would have more heft if it weren't for the fact that the suffrage movement for Women deliberately ensure that despite getting the vote they were excluded from the selective service requirements aka the draft. This was clearly a choice in the argument that women want to avoid military service as a group. Heck there were even anti sufferage movements of women who argued against getting the vote for precisely not wanting to serve.
@@Hana9916 Then don't throw it in men's faces that they can't have children when they don't have a choice in the matter. Women being able to do this precluded them from having to go to war and build and maintain all structures and infrastructure we take for granted. And most women like it this way, they'll happily trade glory and honor for safety and comfort; and most men would too, if they didn't feel obligated to do otherwise. It sounds like you may sort of get how it feels when women gloat about doing what they evolved to do. Until that no longer happens men will gloat about what they do for women and society as a whole in response because it is only fair.
@@010203109 Men can't give birth, women weren't allowed to serve. It's not the same.
When you find an instance when a woman forbade a man to give birth...
i mean, i feel like both woman and men are both oppressed in different ways, some men might feel like they have a duty to take those demanding jobs even when they might not want to and some women might want to but fee like they're not supposed to. Its not "only men are oppressed and women have it good" or vice versa, i think theres a lot more nuisance to the situation
i honestly dont know about that because the lady who made the red pill documentary and former feminist gave a talk about how her journey and she makes some pretty startling realizations about herself and modern feminism in general
ruclips.net/video/3WMuzhQXJoY/видео.html
I think the world is not Carebears Kingdom where a group will actively try to become responsible for dangerous work. I'm saying if it was the other way around, men would not fight for their shit shoveling jobs either. I think we are giving political groups a lot more credits. When a large group of people take on an ideology, it will be the kind that begins and ends in one sentence at most. In the case of Feminism it's "Make The Female Condition better". Vice versa for MRA, only the ones that are right and the ones that are right changes depending on which side the scale tips in certain topics. In other words, we need a mediator and rational group that weighs both concerns and finds rational solutions. Good luck with that.
Ummmm... so basically "I have it good where I live because nobody is bigoted or judeges me therefore no one is opressed in my entire country"? Seriously dude? A 17 year old gay kid was muredred by the amish a town away from me last year. When I came out at 16 my family labeled me a pedophile and other parents didn't let their children around me. I work in a factory and even though almost half the employees are women who work just as hard as me, most of the male supervisors dont treat them with respect. We even had a supervisor with 4 sexual harrasment complaints who got fired not for those, but because he kicked another supervisor in the shin. So maybe you are very lucky to live in such a progressive place, but don't use that to say that no one is opressed.
Joseph Barksdale You'll be praised for adopting overtly feminine behaviors and signifiers? Really? Why not test that assertion out empirically and see what happens to you? Put on a cute pink dress and a blonde wig and walk down the street alone at night in any American town with a population < 5,000. Go to the bathroom at Walmart. Try to rent an apartment, or get a job as a preschool teacher. (Buy some mace first!) Then report back about how liberal American gender norms are. We have hatecrime laws for a reason. People are trying to formally outlaw conversion therapy for a reason. Recently, our president attempted to ban transpeople from the military. Right this minute, the Supreme Court is hearing a case that will decide whether or not gay Americans have the right to the same set of public protections that straight people have. In Canada, an angry incel just ran down two dozen people because he was mad that he couldn't get a girlfriend. Gay people, transpeople, women, and people of color (and all the intersections thereof) are disproportionately at risk for violence and discrimination all over the world. Why not Google some statistics about that before farting out your fingers on the topic like you're an expert? You might be coddled and protected in your particular environment no matter what life choices you make, but most people aren't as lucky. Also, these issues aren't just the domain of "abnormal" (your word) people like feminists and transpeople. The pressure to conform no matter what is one of the things that drive even straight white men to commit suicide and drop out of the workforce and society at large at such an alarming rate. If conformity wasn't important, where do incels come from? Why are MRA douchebags so angry? What do they care about how many sex partners random women have? The entire phenomenon is predicated on disappointed ideals re: masculine identity. Deeply conservative gender/social/economic roles, rigidly enforced by a hierarchy of cultural shame and official persecution, destroy millions of lives here and all over the world. In your haste to dismantle the idea of oppression as it relates to women and queer people, you're also destroying the case for the persecution of men - and some men are, in fact, subject to oppression. Mostly poor men, transmen, & men of color, of course, but literally everyone has been pressured to conform to some "standard" role or other, at some point in their lives. This is a terrible, dumb argument.
Paul Olsen To "engage" with feminism, you have to understand that ordinary women in the US and in every nation in the world face sexual and physical violence every minute of the day from men, for absolutely no reason. You have to understand that several millennia worth of oppression isn't overcome in 30 years. You have to understand that while well-off straight white women are beginning to achieve parity with men, they still aren't safe - and that the system most feminists are trying to dismantle is bad for people of all genders (Hillary Clinton, a person who didn't protect her subordinates from sexual harassment, isn't an improvement over a male boss who doesn't protect his subordinates from sexual harassment). I have only ever encountered harassment at the level of "nuisance." In addition to being super-lucky, that puts me in the vast minority of women. Engage with that.
"Why don't feminists want women to get drafted?" Because they want to abolish the draft entirely and are anti-war. You achieve equality through freedom, not oppression. If MRAs were complaining about men's incarceration rates and said they wanted equality, my solution would not be to give women harsher prison sentences equal to what men face, it would be to invest in low income communities and reform the criminal justice system to prevent as many people as possible from being incarcerated
No, the draft is part of feminism. Isolationism and the removal of the draft is part of patriarchy.
Thank you for this. This is an old video, I'm aware, but I absolutely love this. No one sane is denying that men also have issues, but as it turns out it's not just a battle of 'who's more oppressed'. Maybe it shouldn't be a strictly 'feminist' movement or a strictly 'mens rights' movement, but a gender equality movement. I think that both extremes on either side aren't entirely correct. I love how you addressed how to solve the problem instead of leaving it at a battle of burdens and accepting both 'sides' of the argument as somewhat valid, while also criticizing them constructively. God I love your channel, much love
Yes, i think we have come much ahead of time and should change feminism to equalism. But still I th8no feminism is still needed for many things.
@@user-ie1pw1mk6n Agreed. I don't think feminists are 'looking for reasons to be oppressed', in fact a lot of feminist points benefit both genders, like he brought up in his video. Feminism is still really really important and it's weird to pretend that it isn't
But wait does the film present any solutions for the problems they discuss other than just "oh okay so men are oppressed don't be a feminist."
If it did, I'd think the comments would be filled with the solutions proposed in the film.
maybe they think its more important to establish MRA as a movement one can take seriously, before they can do something about these problems
@@LouDuLappe but if they don't look to solve problems, why would you take them seriously in the first place?
MRAs: **points out the pitfalls of a patriarchal society, such as men having to provide for the family**
MRAs: **provide absolutely no solution to this**
The solution is trivial. Stop asking men to be protectors and providers. For now on, you can't obtain any money from a man or any of his wealth after divorce. Both will end their marriage with their own money and wealth, and no obligation to support the other will be enforced by the State. Let's also stop the child support system. For now on, shared parenthood after divorce is obligatory. When it is not possible, custody of the children should be given for the one who can support them financially. Feminists will ree, of course.
Zadratube. Look, I think you have great ideas there and I agree with some of them. But unfortunately, custody after divorce is not that simple. People have work schedules, can live far away, and possibly other problems that can prevent them from having proper care of children. Child support system exists to address this when only one parent can be the primary carer of the child. I think the custodial system does need to be less biased, but making it completely 50/50 and getting rid of child support will not achieve that outcome.
@@nowyuosee109 “I think the custodial system does need to be less biased, but making it completely 50/50 and getting rid of child support will not achieve that outcome.”
Translation: you think society should keep seeing women as the privileged sex in the family court and you have no trouble with this idea.
Zadratube. No? You’re strawmanning me? I simply just don’t think taking away child support and making it 50/50 as a hard rule will solve anything. I think it’s an impractical solution to a complicated problem.
¿Why would þat behaviour be patriarchal? I see no indicator þat þis benefits men, ¿Or are you willing to state that slavery in þose United States was Black supremacist culture backfiring?
I may have never been to war, but my profession (predominantly women) has more workplace injuries than any other field -- more than cops, more than construction workers, more than firefighters. Nope, aides/nurses. Nobody seems to ever bring this up. Nurses and CNAs (aka predominantly women) are busting our bodies more than anybody. I'm not even 30 yet and I already have 5 degenerative chronic pain conditions that I can't even take pain meds for because I can't risk dependence/addiction.
Oppression isn't a game of tug of war. If men are oppressed, women aren't instantly not oppressed, and vice versa. It's more like a really complicated venn diagram with many many overlapping circles.
It's true men die in wars more, men commit suicide more, men lose custody more. It's not easy being a man and, given the popularity of this film, it's partly society to blame (and dare I say even feminists) for not addressing the real struggles men face in day to day life and sparking this revolt.
But, again, it doesn't need to be tug of war. Addressing and sympathizing with these men and presenting solutions that benefits everyone is a crucial step in equality. It's true men die in the workplace more, so maybe more women should have an opportunity to work. It's true men die in wars more, maybe women should be given the opportunity to fight in then. The way we present these solutions can be the difference between a battle and mutual diplomacy.
Why don't mens rights ever start foundations to help homeless man or disabled men instead of wasting time bashing women?
There was Earl Silverman, who opened a shelter for abused men, but then committed suicide after being harassed for it.
@@terraformthesun2896 He got harassed for threatening violence against women, calling all victims liars and being associated with kkk and Nazi related articles. This is the reason no one takes menr rights seriously. They're mostly Far Right-White Nationalists-Rape apologists.
@@unclefa4416 proof?
They do
@@jamesweir2083 how dare you ask for proof! A woman's feelings are proof!
7:06 "Women are more likely to be single mothers."
You don't say?
Also the courts are biased to women
The distinction here is "single". If someone says "I'm a mother" probably you assume they have the complete family with the father in the picture. Where "single mother" is different.
If he said women are more likely to be mothers then I would say that statement is vacuous.
@@carl7018 women are more likely to be mothers than men are to be mothers
Cassie: “I wouldn’t want to be a man”
Cassie if she was a man: **laughing in still rich and privileged**
"We're the ones dying! We're dying for you!"
LMAO who shot archduke ferdinand? who invented fascism? was that us?
no, because you never invented anything of substance.
@@markusk9080 Dr Shirley Ann Jackson invented Caller ID
Olga D Gonzalez-Sanabria Invented Space station batteries
Marie Van Brittan Brown Invented the home security system
YOU'VE probably never invented anything of substance, and even if you have you're still going to just be some gross asshole
It’s always a class struggle. Until we fight that structure, this squabbling is oeabuts
Quite true. Simple but true. We always lose sight of it when an easy scapegoat comes along.
Nah. It's never been class, it's always been race.
@@adolfwasrite7009 Thats what they want you to think. They want you to fight about identity politics to avoid to talk about the real culprit, class.
Just like that Amazon union worker leak.
@@methanesulfonic Trying to pretend unequal groups are equal is the fundamental flaw in all leftwing ideology. Among our own people, class was never an issue. Marx lies.
Why do people view feminism as a "women vs men" thing when that is not what feminism even is? Don't know why it is popular to view a woman who is sexist towards men as a "textbook feminist".
Because to people accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
exactly. but then they say that not every mens rights activist is a misygonist or incel. like..make it make sense
Maybe too many people screaming at people and using buzz words? Most feminists I talk to, have to mention I’m white and privileged at every conversation. I don’t get mad, but I usually refrain from talking to self proclaimed feminists.
Honestly nobody should be in the military. We need a smaller military or not at all at best
Paul Joseph Watson an anti feminist literally has a video where he argues that female fire fighters can't. So, what then, Paul? Let men only die and complain about that as a counter argument to Feminism.
Bullshit.
"women are more likely to be single mothers" my favourite sentence ever
lol I just now got that!
@Tooo EZ Go back on 4chan
Hot drinks really gets you going
Warms you up when you feel you're slowing
Wendy's: we always serve it right away
Add a smile and have a nice day!
As soon as I saw the cups, I heard the bassline.
OOOOH! Coffee, decaf, tea, and hot choc-o-late!
I had to check if people added to this, I'm watching it 3 years later, and was like. Hot drinks!
The idea that people will stop committing suicide because you took away their guns is like saying people will stop cooking because you took away their knives. It may be harder, but the motivation doesn't simply evaporate.
@@Dimitris_Half 12:51 "Men choose more lethal methods of suicide, most commonly guns". Not exactly, I suppose. The fact remains that there are hundreds of ways to effectively kill yourself in the average home. Removing only the most convenient one won't stop all suicides. At best you stop only the least motivated cases (although, they are the ones most likely to regret the attempt if they survive).
Men and women simply go about suicide in different ways. Men are more action-oriented, and therefore focus on the act of ceasing to exist. Women are more people-oriented, and focus on communicating their suicide. The solution to male suicide is not gun control, it's safety nets to keep men from reaching rock bottom. It's keeping men from getting fucked over in family court, or keeping men off the street.
As for suicides for mental health reasons, everyone can benefit from expanded services, mandated insurance coverage for therapy, etc.
@@Dimitris_Half ok, the argument in the video is that feminism/the left is more effective at stopping male suicide than the NRA (probably true), and thereby conflating the MRM and conservatism, based on the political alignment of one MRA (this is a false dichotomy, not all feminists are leftists, and not all MRAs are conservative). Joel doesn't compare the relative effectiveness of the two sides on suicide prevention, because it's not so easy as feminism vs NRA. The MRM DOES promote welfare for men, in the areas I mentioned. Family court, shelters for men and their children (incedentally, a dude named Earl Silverman hung himself because he couldn't secure government funding for his one-of-a-kind Calgary-based battered men's shelter. For contrast, the Canadian government spent $100M on women's shelters and services last year, and that was just the emergency spending).
Basically, I'm saying if Joel had fairly compared feminism and MRM, he would not have been able to definitively say that feminism does more for male suicide than does MRM. Instead he unfairly compared feminism to the NRA (and thereby conservatism).
MRAs: WE FIGHT THESE WARS FOR YOU!!! BE GRATEFUL!!!
Feminist: We want to fight and die too.
MRAs: WHAT?! NO, THIS IS FOR MEN ONLY!!!
Why did I choose rough, dangerous, demanding work? Because I liked it. Tried work that was safe and less strenuous--couldn't stand it. Just like many of my co-workers.
I think we need to respect the right to self-determination for ALL genders.
Interesting!
Yes. We must ask ourselves though, is that a primitive, innate drive or one dictated by societal values and norms?
Omg sorry but you're the exception here
Thanks for the nuance, man. We need more people like you discussing, being curious and exploring the issues present in society.
"Women are more likely to be single mothers"
- Big Joel, 2018
Great video. Very informative and unbiased. Good job (:
You are one of my favorite RUclipsrs at the moment. Your videos are so well reasoned and thought out. I hope you get as big as you want to be.
Turner Cash I can't agree more!
Hitomi Iwahana yeah. Also did you know that Joel is a Jew. Isn't that just 👌,.
David Getui 👌
Hitomi Iwahana I just like Jews in general man. Hell,one of my heroes and I know it sounds cliché but Albert Einstein is a Jew. It's well made videos like these make you wonder why people like the ""alt right""(AKA neo Nazis) would hate Jews.
Ella Kanefsky yeah. Also did you know that Jews preside over 60 percent of the positions in Hollywood. That is just one of the great things about your people 👌.
I think the main issue these men have is with classism but women are a more accessible scapegoat instead of actually attempting to limit the power/growth of CEOS and multibillion dollar corporations. Another issue is that many of them seem to be angry but they don't want to use that anger in a proactive way... they just want to remain angry.
MRAs don't target women or blame women for social ills.
@@PaulJohnsonM And the earth is flat right?
@@KaylaNoelle1 It's because nature is not fair. No matter how much people try to insulate themselves in their artificial environments we are still a part of nature.
@@MrJaaaaake Good thing nature is more fair than a society controlled by multibillion-dollar corporations. We are entering a new feudal age.
@@KaylaNoelle1 It's not. There is no feminism in nature. In nature, might is right.
The main problem with the film, or a lot of gender discourse in general, is the obsession with an objectively unmeasurable comparisson of "who got it worse", or more specifically, the notion that this unmeasurable comparisson dictates what cause is worth pursuing.
And no... that is simply ridiculous, of course men and women suffern in multiple ways from gender roles in our society, and of course all of them are worth fixing regardless of who you think "got it worse".
And yeah... I personally think one of the problems men face in particular is the cultural stereotype that they are weak if they complain about their situation or appear emotional about their problems, which I think contributes in why men's problems are not discussed as much in the mainstream. Not saying women don't have it worse, maybe they do in some chosen metric, but still that is ultimately irrelevant when talking about if a societal issue is worth fixing. I also don't believe that every men's problem is a feminist problem or a patriarcal problem. I think that just works to diminish their issues and bring atention away from them.
It is a very complicated topic and it just makes me sad that the most recognicible movement fighting for men gender problems is just filled with extremists and has such a bad reputation.
anyone know the name of the piano piece in the beginning?