Just some answers to a few questions I thought you might have. *1) Are you saying that Mario games should be condemned in the same way we condemn nazi propaganda?* No. *2) Are you implying that people are bad when they consume and authentically enjoy politically problematic media?* No. *3)These RUclipsrs aren’t saying all things produced under capitalism are good, they’re saying that the market for video games is mostly men so it’s fine that games are the way they are. That’s a different argument, right?* No it’s not. That’s the same argument. Everything sold under capitalism is sold to the people who buy it. That an audience buys a thing (or that a thing is sold to the people who buy it) does not mean that thing is harmless. *4)You seem to be stepping into some Jack Thompson territory here. Are you implying that any game that romanticizes violence ought to condemned or some such nonsense?* Well, no. While I do think it absolutely is fair to criticize the violence in certain games and to criticize the medium as a whole for its over-reliance on the treatment of violence as cool, good, or just, we have to acknowledge that violence is the mechanical lingua franca of games in general. As I advise in my video, we must always consider the way the violence depicted in a game interacts with a broader culture. For instance, a game wherein torturous violence is committed against, say, an arrested terrorist paints a very different picture from a game where violence is committed for some genuinely good cause or against a cartoon character. We have to be specific and attentive to these things.* *5) You say you don’t like cultivation theory but never challenge Sargon or Thunderf00t’s obviously silly idea that for cultivation theory to be true, murder rates or whatever must literally increase. You’re aware this is silly right?* Yes I am aware. The burden of proof these guys demand from cultivation theory is absurd, and they fail to recognize that 1) Games might have more covert negative effects on the people who play them than literally making them murder or 2) Games could just be causing violent crime to go up even as murder rates fall. That said, this was just an unnecessary thing to talk about haha. *6) (the one i referred to in the video) You say in your video that the association between violence and sexuality is a problematic thing that Anita sees in culture. I’ll have you know that plenty of good people, women included, are aroused by images of violence against women. What’s your response?* I fully recognize that there are all sorts of things that would be bad were they to occur in real life, or non-consensually, that are perfectly fine to fantasize about alone or with a partner. But this fact does not excuse all media from criticism. BDSM media can convey bad messages or good messages or fine messages in the same way all media can. And that violence occurs in a piece of art is not, on the face of it, enough to condemn it. Again, we must look at the interaction between a work and the broader social structure before we can fully understand its subtext and meaning. For instance, does Double Dragon encourage us to look at women as objects or subjects in their sexuality? Does it pose violence against the female character as a fun prop or as a significant event? Is the violence against her meaningfully contextualized as erotic fantasy? Again, I haven’t played the game and these are obviously very complicated questions, questions that are contingent on the precise functioning (or lack of functioning, as these RUclipsrs might have it) of the patriarchy within modern culture. *7) You said that claims about the harmfulness of art are not referring to the literal impact art has on society and then say the only way we can ascertain the messages of art is through that society. Isn't that a contradiction?* No. To be honest I have no clue why I'm including this question. I just suspect one person might comment it and it'll puzzle me then as it puzzles me now. Those are two different things haha
Ignore the story which is something fundamental to make you want to play a game, and strip the same game of any other detail until it fits your preconceived world order of men dominating women and seeking power. In this video you didn't do anything but repeat what Anita said in her videos, which is exactly what Sargon and other criticized, you made a video explaining Anita's point of view and why it makes sense, while everyone criticizing her already knows it and they themselves explain it and why it is wrong. It's a trend to assume that others don't understand your point of view, is it because they don't agree with you?
Lady literally says "You can/should enjoy games even though it's important to be aware of problems in them" in every video. Somehow gets twisted into "she wants to ban video games!"
@@alexdietz7362 Criticizing the quality of her videos for the budget is actually fine and valid. I'm just talking about people labeling her "anti-video games." Nothing tribal here. I don't even agree with a lot of her videos, but writing her off as wanting to take away games is reactionary and ridiculous.
Honestly the worst part about Amazing Atheist’s and Sargon’s videos is the part where they act like it’s a no brainer that video games are OBVIOUSLY made for men so OF COURSE they’re going to objectify women. Like...they never question why video games are sold specifically to men? They never wonder about why certain items are gendered under capitalism and why other items, like apples and cigarettes, are not? They never wonder why male centered culture perpetuates harmful stereotypes? Why do video games HAVE to be male? Why can’t male centered media promote respect and emotional strength, etc? Obviously not ALL video games are like this but it astounds me that they just never think to ask...why?
Things are "gendered" because there are purchasing patterns that appear, and so companies try to appeal to these trends. That's it. Unfortunately companies tend to follow the money.
@@aquilafasciata5781 sounds like you dont know the history of video games in america. You should look into the resurgence of gaming. The first wave of gaming in america was very much not gendered. It wasn't until the crash, then some quiet years, that nintendo began marketing to young boys (a coin flip decision).
@@user_.b Amelia Flores I, too, watch Ahoy. And because of that initial marketing push, the main demographic is now males, so that is who they market to.
First of, you can't objectify a npc, because a npc is already an object. But you can objectify a character controlled/played by person, which still happens to a lot of female gamers that play online. Second the reason apples and cigarettes are not gendered is because capitalism hasn't "yet" found a way to gender them. Capitalism even genders refresments like diet coke and cola zero. Third gaming isn't male centered, just a lot of genres are, but the reason some genres have less women isn't just because they are less intressed in these type of games. One reason is hardly ever enough for things being the way they are. Like what about those communities being very toxic towards women, that they have very few strong female characters or the fact that all women are sexy and wearing stripper clothes. Btw there isn't anything wrong with having a female character that is sexy and wears stripper clothes, just like how there is nothing wrong with having a black character that is a thug. It is a problem when all female characters are sexy and wears stripper clothes and all black characters are thugs. Otherwise great commet.
@@aquilafasciata5781 i wonder what would have happened if the market became female focus maybe we could avoid such a silly argument about videogames violence and objectification
ok i feel like a lot of people are missing the point of this video. it's not really about anita sarkeesian at all, it's about the ineffective and harmful ways in which people choose to engage with media criticism. you may be unconvinced by sarkeesian's commentary itself, but this video is just here to point out that some of the criticism of her is fundamentally flawed in an important way. watch the whole video and actually listen to what he's saying, it's important and interesting regardless of your opinion on sarkeesian herself.
Sorry, but this is the same woman who tried to bully boogie2988 in private after he shared a message or concern and love because it took away from her narrative. I'd say it's the turning point in Boogie stopping being such a pushover afraid of confrontation, because Anita forced him into the very situation he never wanted to be in and sent him into a panic attack. Not everything Anita does and stands for is bad, but Anita herself is a terrible person and she has scammed alot of people out of alot of money by taking advantage of the feminist people she claimed to represent. I'm willing to listen and consider the arguments of feminism, there are good parts to them that have become subverted for self gain and social prestige in modern times, but Anita herself is, as she would put it, "a garbage person". I already separate her from the group. BUT, that doesn't stop her from being a part of the conversation and a symbol of everything that has gone wrong with the modern feminist movement. Stuff like her is the reason I had to step back from being a feminist, because I couldn't support the corruption of the platform into a tool to leverage for power, money, and prestige and escalates a culture war instead of spreading understanding and equality. The current feminism unfortunately wants to be "more equal", not just equal, and that's a betrayal of what feminism used to be. It's a deeper problem than just media fetishization, this would be happening without the media empowering it. The Media has just strengthened it. It's also not just confined to feminism, it's all identity politics and tribalism.
Also pretty disingenuous that Thunderfoot uses the ending of the remake to make his point while showing the gameplay of the original, as if that's been a norm the whole time.
Saw Kev logan talk about this prick once. Mentioning playstation games while showing halo 3 footage which is a xbox exclusive. Funny right? Dudes like this accuse her of not being a REAL gamer to be taken seriously... Some of these chuds need to look in the mirror.
I remember being 14 and unironically agreeing with the anti-sjw and anti-Anita arguments. Even back then I knew something wasn’t quite right about those guys, but I had no idea just how bad it was. I’m so glad I came to my senses
I don't see why it has to be one way or another. I heavily disagred with Anita, she wants too much of the game worlds to be perfect. Her arguments are often quite silly. But at the same time I don't agree with the anti sjw crowd that everything is perfect the way it is. There is nothing wrong about this guys as much as there is nothing wrong with Anita. There's just opinions and they don't have to be either way at least I think so.
@Scotty's Bottom Oooh, using homophobic slurs to OWN le stoopid sjdubyaa libtards, how cool and mature and edgy of you! 😎 You sure convinced me, a fellow libtard, with your awesome FACTS and LOGIC and definitely cool temper (unlikes those triggured sjews) in less than 0.5 sargons flat! 👌
I mean Lubenshluben was already in two parts, each the length of a full movie. The first part was pretty tame, really just a historical drama about WWI with some impressive cinematography for the time. It was the second part that was really offensive, where the newly formed Nazi party is glorified and the efforts at -reconstructionism- the Weimar Republic are portrayed as evil. The triumphant note at the end with the birth of a Nazi nation was particularly disgusting.
Playing through Cyberpunk 2077 had me thinking about this. One of the primary factions in that game is what amounts to a sex worker's union, and it genuinely surprised me to see a mainstream, AAA title treat sex workers with that kind of respect and dignity.
These sexist themes are just so engrained into our culture that criticizing them in some video games makes people assume she wants all video games banned. Like its as if people cannot imagine a video game without those themes. Wowie
Exactly. Like on the other hand you have film critics talking about problematic misogyny in films, but even their biggest detractors don't presume that the critics are calling for a ban on all movies.
@@ToaNyroc yeah I'm not even a fan of her but I've seen some of her stuff and she just seems like someone who likes video games and just wants them to represent women in a better way, I never got the vibe that she wanted the medium of gaming to be scrapped.
@Rob Cameron No, there isn't, you dishonest coward. There is a footage of her saying she's not a "gamer" as in she doesn't consider gaming to be a big part of her identity. It's an old footage mind you, so it's perfectly possible that she changed her mind since then. In any case, the footage didn't prove she "knows nothing about them"
Themes based on your interpretation. This fundamentally comes down to interpretation, and I don't think your interpretation has any more credence than others interpretations that conflict with Sarkeesian.
i literally gagged when i heard it . like, no dude its not all about you and your dick. how about looking awake and less dead , more healthy or young , how about expression or art, not everything women do is about your sexuality but i guess that's the way you see the world when you play games catered toward " male dominant audience"
@@maniakimon Less dead? You mean less aged, less fit for breeding. More healthy and young? You mean healthy young adult, since she's clearly not trying to look like a child. Healthy young adult females equate to fertility. Creative expression is also a big part of breeding fitness, even in the animal kingdom. Look at birds of paradise for obvious examples, with their fine plummage, dances and calls. Yes, just about everything adult women do is about "your dick" and just about everything adult men do is about "your vagina". Perpetuating the species is too important to put on the back-burner, so it's baked into the core of everything we are.
The bit about Mario and Princess Peach's social classes really got me because Mario being of a lower class than Peach *is* part of the male fantasy- the idea that the everyman can rise up to the challenge and be rewarded with a "princess", either literal or metaphorical, for his efforts in the end. Peach's status as a princess increases her appeal as a reward. How many heroes would set out to rescue the ugly milkmaid from two towns over? Not many. Edit: before whinging at me please go to 8:40 in the video for context as to what I made my comment about, for fuck's sake.
Don't get me wrong I completely agree with you, but sometimes I feel like I'm not allowed to have my childhood anymore. I didn't really think about those kinds of things when I was a kid you know? I have all of these really happy and powerful memories attached to these things and then all the sudden The legend of Zelda is sexist and now I can't ever feel those emotions the same way as I did when I was a kid. I used to be a part of the anti-sjw crowd, but these days I've sort of woken up in a sense, I realize how stupid that was back then. but honestly if I could go back to being as ignorant as I was back then I think I would go back, at least everything was stable back then I had something that I understood back then there were things that made sense and things that didn't make sense. I may have woken up to how stupid and childish My world views were back then but honestly I just feel more helpless and miserable. I find that I can think for myself less and less as the days go on, I don't know what's right or wrong anymore, every argument makes sense, l AM toxicly- masculine, l am NOT toxicly-masculine. Are the things that make me who I am good and creative and wholesome? Or are they proof of how horrible society is and it's influence. I don't know anything anymore, and I don't belong anywhere anymore.
@@dannyeckerd9324I feel it's possible to like something while still being aware of its flaws. Something can be overall 'good creative and wholesome' whilst still having a few problematic elements.
@@Tom-zo4hkI knew a feminist who said I was perpetuating toxic-masculinity as a bladesmith because I was making weapons after I offered to teach her, but then I asked another that I knew from work and she said she thought it was cool and creative. So who do I listen to? At the end of the day I just want to be a good person, but nobody can give me a straight answer on how I should do that.
@@dannyeckerd9324 That does sound very cool and creative! And I think it's very cool of you to offer to teach her! Doing that seems like the opposite of toxic to me.
@@dannyeckerd9324 Despite what some people might say, it's alright to enjoy things even if you have criticisms of them, or even if other people criticize them in ways you agree with! I have loads of criticism for stuff I love a lot, like Zelda as you mentioned. There is no "unproblematic" media, because everyone's interpretations of it will be different- at some point, you just have to put your foot down and say "yes, I get what you mean, but I still like this." The thing is that in Anita's original videos as well, she's not telling people to stop enjoying these games! Nor are you obligated to constantly self-flagellate over the sexist tropes of a story unless you specifically wish to discuss those aspects. I know that that's the attitude the internet has taken (that something is either completely flawless or irredeemable trash) but that's just... not really feasible. On top of that, misogyny and the patriarchy isn't the fault of any specific man, or even most men. It's not your job or your responsibility to feel bad about sexism or misogyny constantly because you're a man. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a radfem and not worth listening to. Ultimately, video games are supposed to be fun, and video games aren't going to overcome massive societal issues overnight, so no matter what anyone says, let these games make you happy. Sorry if I'm a bit rambly but I hope you understand what I mean here.
Fundamentally thunderfoot and co. had her argument backwards. It's not that male-centered narratives in video games cause sexism, it's that sexism causes male-centered narratives in video games. And, like with your hypothetical Nazi movie, this is worthy of critique whether it causes or simply reflects bad ideologies.
The thing that’s always weirded me out about her arguments is that doesn’t this sword cut both ways? Doesn’t a huge, beastly muscled, heroic male video game protagonist contribute just as much to sexism? And at the end of the day, isn’t it ok for video game developers to make the games they want? I don’t get what’s wrong with them making a game where the male hero saves the damsel in distress. Just as a heroine saving her captured male lover is perfectly legitimate. So now all video games have to make sure they carefully appeal to her guidelines of what makes an acceptable female character?
@@Rokaize "Doesn’t a huge, beastly muscled, heroic male video game protagonist contribute just as much to sexism?" You're making her point for her. That stereotype contributes to the broader message that women are unimportant objects to be saved by men, and men are strong heroes who deserve the viewers attention. "Isn't it ok for video game developers to make the games they want?" They can make what they want, doesn't mean they're free from criticism. Conservatives criticize media all the time for having "diversity" or whatever. In the same way, Anita criticizes media for sexism. Criticism isn't censorship.
@@WalkTuahthePolls my statement had nothing to do with criticism or censorship. Even if there is criticism of it the developers shouldn’t even really care. Some randos on the internet complaining about a female character being sexualized isn’t even worth really responding to. And it definitely isn’t worth changing over. Because as you even stated, then the criticism will move on to some other aspect of how someone is portrayed in s game. If they change sexualized females then the big muscles protagonist will be criticized. Almost any decision they make will be criticized by that same crowd.
@@Rokaize Then why are you even here? If you think the criticism is pointless then why are you talking about it? Just ignore it. Clearly you do care about this, and you understand on some level that feminist activists have had an influence on games. Personally, I think that influence has been good. It's lead to diverse casts with more unique characters. Fewer games are relying on the worn out 'damsel in distress' trope and come up with a creative story.
On the point about women being treated as sex workers i.e. objects, imagine a game with a female protagonist. All of the female characters serve to help her on her quest, give her information, and fight in battles with her. Meanwhile, all of the male characters offer to do pushups, cut down trees and build bookcases. Do you think the alt-right youtubers would defend that, saying doing pushups and building shelves is just another way to use your body?
I also think that hypothetical game sounds rad. Can all the guys be ripped asf like Bobby Lashley? Also implications that the opposite is super common, rofl.
@@MrCmon113 I don't understand your point here. Alt-right RUclipsrs defend the way women are portrayed in many video games (as Joel discussed in the video) because selling your body is just another way to use your body. OP was turning that around and asking whether those same people would defend male video game characters acting in an equivalent way.
Has anyone explained to Sargon and Thunderf00t that their own videos are, in fact, media? By their own beliefs, their videos have no persuasive power and therefore why should they bother?
Scotty's Bottom man, if this is the best arguments anti-SJW can bring you better buy the neon hair coloring already. You’re fucked if you actually think she argued herself and not posed a logical question.
@@darrenr49 Well there are 2 options. It's a blind attack on Anita where they didn't properly think through the video when they made it or they don't give a shit and just want to be anti-sjw. Obviously if you think it's a straw man then they didn't think through the video when they made it.
The funniest part about Thunderf00t's point about 'the girl delivering the last blow on te bad guy' IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING ANITTA POINTS OUT IN HER VIDEOS! LIKE, THAT EXACT SAME SCENE! DUDE! JUST WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE PERSON YOU ARE CRITICIZING INSTEAD OF SCREAMING ABOUT WOMEN PLAYING VIDYA GAMES
oh yeah, Shaun did a great video about that. All these guys are shitbags and lie, but Thunderfoot is really bad, cause he actually just edits out the bits where Anita talks about stuff he claims that she's "ignoring"
@@scottysbottom5769 Honestly, just go to ANY video about her and read the comments section. Then come back to me and say "I doubt she received harassment on any different degree than anyone else on the internet". Can't? It's because people froth at the mouth and spew the most nasty shit for no reason. Did she personally hurt you? No. Then critique her opinion and move on. But the 'critiques' of her call her the devil, a whore, etc. for....giving an opinion on a video game?
these guys: these game don't objectify women also these guys: of course these games focus on the parts of the body men want! that's how the games sell!
I wonder how you developed the idea i want someone to paraphrase an assertion already made. Edit To clarify a bit: A fictional scenario does not miraculously transcend to a fact because it is convenient for propaganda purposes, an infantile expression of contempt or any other scheme currently fashionable.
@@krunkle5136 I'm surprised no one has tried it yet; there are very few competitors in a space with millions of potential customers, so why has no one bought in?
That, but unironically. Thunderfoot was wrong in his argument; in that yes, Peach is a princess in name. But it would also be wrong to deny Mario's appeal to the masses as a charmingly stylized version of an everyman. He IS a "male power fantasy" but it's easier for everyone to empathize with him cuz he's a chubby plumber who looks average - it's just that his average features are cleverly stylized in a way that increases charm.
@@CteCrassus So was Lao Prince Souphanouvong (nicknamed the "Red Prince of Laos") and look at how that went. Bowser's domain is clearly a refuge for all the outcasts and "undesirables"
@@pr0ntab Wait a minute... how do anime characters distinguish between watching anime on TV and live-action TV when they both are animated??? When they watch anime and then look at themselves in the mirror immediately after how can they continue to go on with the facade without realizing they are one and the same?
Hating Anita particularly always seemed like hating vanilla pudding - with a wide variety of tastes and textures out there folks are getting mad about something extremely bland and inoffensive. That's not to dismiss Sarkeesian, she's just very boring, straight to the point, monotone, and uninspired with her videos. I know that's deliberate because she didn't want to stoke any coals of rage - yet it happened anyways. Whatever she said the hate towards her was clearly never for just what she said or how she said it. I mean, folks got mad at "Ms. Pacman's design is just Pacman with feminine characteristics added to it." It was always something that she represented - more than just women intruding in a traditionally men's space either. The hate towards her was a pushback of treating gaming (and other media for that matter) as anybody but disposable toys. The great hypocrisy of the gaming community is wanting games to be respected by outsiders but never to be critically examined.
"The great hypocrisy of the gaming community is wanting games to be respected by outsiders but never to be critically examined." I wonder if other artforms had similar growing pains. Was there a dudebro backlash to critics of Taming of the Shrew?
It's not hypocrisy: once you start deeply examining something you can bet the fun is over, just look at what Watchmen did to the comics industry. Videogames should be fun (she doesn't care because she doesn't play games, but gamers obviously do).
@@LimeyLassen There was definitely some dude who was like "Battleship Potempkin is just a movie, gawd! Chill the hell out with this whole 'communist propaganda' thing."
IllCaesar I have a hunch that the reason she had such a flat monotone type of presentation style is because she was trying to avoid having her work get the “cringe compilation” treatment.
Watching old GamerGate videos is so funny. "Hey, this hobby is dominated by male voices and perspectives." "Well that's because it's dominated by male voices and perspectives. Checkmate."
The Mario example actually works against Thunderf00t's argument. Even ALTHOUGH Peach is a princess and Mario is "just" a plumber, he is more potent and active while she is not a single bit. So even the politically most powerful woman is weaker than a lower class man.
John Ploopy princesses and women in general don’t exactly have a reputation of being that strong. Literally addressed point in the thing I made a comment about. It’s a trope because all throughout history women have been captured and needed to be saved by men or they die.
@@jbstarkiller4626 Analyzing and interpreting the historic precedence of the society in which these games were made to establish the purpose and meaning of games is the whole point, though. The idea isn't that the gender roles in games are uncommon nor that they don't reflect history; the feminist argument asks both why that is the case historically and if it is harmful to people, both women and men included. Perpetuating a bad idea because it was history is the same sentiment which allows current racism to flourish, for example. I can explain further if you would like.
I just wish Thunderfoot would upgrade his mic. Seriously he’s been on RUclips for how long? And he still sounds like he’s talking through a bowl of macaroni and cheese
@Jesus Christ "Games don't really affect people at all, they just affect people in the following nuanced ways. They don't make them share the exact values shown in the games" he said in response to the comment that says "Games don't make people share the exact values shown in them, they affect them in nuanced ways"
Deadass. Princesses only very rarely had any political power. Their political use was as bartering bits for marriage. They were always the last in line to the throne, even if they were eldest children. Being a princess meant little in terms of personal political power.
Tyler Basile in what sense? In the sense of creature comforts-yes. In the sense of having power over yourself? No. All women were property, peasants or otherwise. If a man differed to you it was because he was differing on behalf of your (male) lord. Princess had the privilege of creature comforts, they were no more autonomous than any other woman, though.
Tyler Basile who? Other female servants? That’s a cheap victory for someone who has no ability to self-determine and is constantly at the beck and call of male authority figures.
Also, it's weird watching this in hindsight and seeing Thunderfoot, as a right-wing reactionary and self-identified "gamergater", speak positively and non-judgmentally about sex work. I have no idea what he's up to these days, but given the way the internet reactionary tide has shifted, I'd be surprised if he isn't espousing the idea that OnlyFans is responsible for the degeneration of western society.
Surprisingly it seems he's actually resisted it. At least as of January 2022, he seems to have gotten over it. I honestly can't believe it, but it's definitely reflected in his newer videos (and even his comment section). Doesn't rant about feminism anymore and the only time I see him bring it up is to say "Feminist Frequency has no power compared to the people in actual power." Looking back, I think Brexit officially caused him to break away from the "Skeptic" Anti-SJW community and his videos on it are brilliant. He even debated Sargon on it, and I love watching him realize over the course of it how stupid Sargon is. Now he's been focusing on the actual scammers and those with power, and actual science, and I really hope he continues this path. Unfortunately all his old awful videos are still on his channel and it sucks, but I've clicked "Not Interested" enough times that the RUclips algorithm has finally stopped recommending them to me. 😆 Fingers crossed. My theory: I think what set Thunderf00t apart from the rest of these guys was the fact that he was never a grifter, he was never an actual RUclipsr and he never made his living off making videos on culture war bullshit. He doesn't sit on his ass all day like Sargon, Thunderf00t is an actual scientist and astronomer that seems to spend all his time working in his field and traveling between science institutions in Europe, and just looking at the night sky. Made multiple scientific discoveries and I think that's why his videos are low quality and slapped together lol. I often wonder if he would have taken a different stance on feminism, had some perspective sooner, had he taken the time to actually think about it and research it. Also, if he had more women in his life, people challenging him on it in general. Pretty sure he's single and childless still, thank god. The knowledge that Sargon has a daughter, as does people like Stephan Molyneux, etc. makes their work even more repugnant and unacceptable to me. (As well as them being lazy grifters.) Idk, as a feminist who followed Thunderf00t before Gamer Gate, I was very hurt by Thunderf00t's insane turn years ago, never got over it. I'm so glad I now get to enjoy his newer content and feel less bad about him being the one I always was most disappointed by. Feel vindicated that he was actually different and not a grifter. Watching him shit on Trump and Brexit honestly gives me life. I'm also happy that his RUclips comment section has been filled with comments focused on the topic and not just shitting on Feminism and whatever. Because there are good science videos he made years ago, that have no reference to feminism in them so I can easily rewatch them...however, I can't partake in my real favorite past time of scrolling through the comments, because every other one brings up feminism. Ie, "can't believe feminists haven't taken credit for this discovery yet lolol" and "where are the female scientists on your team, you sexist pig lol." Sarcastic shit like that. Ok that's my rant. 😆 sorry. Like, holy shit I hope Thunderf00t has actually changed and stopped talking about feminists for the right reasons. I hope at least he continues the trend, of course. (Honestly I think if it weren't for Gamer Gate and feminism crap, he would be a full blown lefty lol.) Still, he broke my heart and started the chain of RUclipsrs disappointing me with sudden heel turns against feminist, years ago, as the Anti-SJW mania took them over one by one. Fortunately I'm a woman and already a solid feminist progressive leftist/whatever, so they didn't affect my politics.
the best way to avoid shit content is to avoid people making a platform or a living out of putting other people down, and instead focus on raising their own perspective @@sorryifoldcomment8596
Can anyone tell which thunderf00t video had the double dragon argument? I need to know if he glossed over the ending of the first game, where the two brothers fight each other to see which one gets the girl. I’m really curious, and I’m *not* going to go through all of his Anita Sarkesia videos to find the right one
I still think that both sides were wrong With one side blaming every single gamer and other side making false acusations And there also was the not your shield that few people comment about but it changes everything
"Mario is an Italian plumber" When has he ever "plumbed" anything? What game? It's the most irrelevant defence of a fictional character I've heard in a while.
@@OggyisCool Thunderf00t makes the argument that Mario has less power than Peach, because Mario is an Italian plumber while Peach is a princess. This point is kinda bad, because those titles have almost nothing to do with the characters portrayals in the games. Mario is a plumber only in name. Big Joel explains this in this video, so idk how you missed it
Is calling someone a « wet blanket » something you usually do? I feel like this should be an insult people use more often. Édit: I’m stealing your wet blanket insult and using it all the time.
Scotty's Bottom they made a video game about punching her face, dude. When you went to her page people said kill your self. It was very prevalent. And why would someone telling the media about that warrant hatred from you? Unless you’re one of her harassers.
Best quotes: “He’s just a boy, an innocent boy, minding his own business, hunting for turnips.” “Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year, but apples, they don’t do nearly that much damage. In fact, it’s said that they keep the doctors away.”
Thankfully, Hbomberguy made it impossible for me to take these guys seriously, but... jesus, that clip of Thunderfzerozerot talking so explicitly sexually about Anita's makeup will never not skeeve me out.
@@dingdongism That didn't occur. Watch, I'll upvote it now to 2. Incredibly unlikely that someone else would come along in the last 5 minutes to upvote me JUST as you made this comment.
@@NotSure109 I agree that scenario is unlikely. While it’s also not unlikely that you have 2 RUclips accounts and used your alt to upvote your main account’s argument-I have an alt, lots of people do-I don’t think it’s fair to assume that’s what you did. Ok, someone else upvoted your troll comment. I was wrong.
I think that is a perfectly fine way to academically describe makeup. He makes a good point. It doesn't necessarily negate her arguments but it certainly complicates them. I'm not sure why we get so worked up when we hear conservatives talk about the sexual enhancement of makeup as if it is somehow a ridiculous notion.
@@Bradley_Lute brad Lute bc it's not always used for sexual reasons so it's irrelevant to bring up at all. That's like saying a guy that works out (has a muscular body) and wears well tailored clothes (that happen to look nice, and make him look nice) makes him always trying to lure people and is 24/7 wanting to be objectified. Its wrong to bring up bc within the context of the video, its not a good point at all. It *is* a ridiculous point. "You dont like the negative portrayal and inherent overarching objectification and patronizing view of women in games? Well, you wear makeup so you're a hypocrite." That's an awful point and unbelievable that someone would say that its a "good point".
@@whatif3271you are absolutely right. While i argue that makeup is always sexual signalling (i'm using a different definition of sexual in this case, the scientific definition - sexual fitness signaling would be better), using it as a argument against Anita doesn't quite work here. Thanks for pointing that out. Not a Thunderfoot fan at all. More i'm concerned with making arguments against left foolery on issues of gender. There is a bit of hypocrisy there about fulfilling gender stereotypes but he is talking about makeup and she is talking about assault. My arguments against her are more along the lines of art as a form of expression and that we don't see art as reality. My other objection would be a general emphasis of feminism on male consumed culture when women consumed culture is quite bad too then cherry picked. And patriarchy is fed by both.
Appeals to emotion redressed as "common sense". If you just call your intuitive value-judgement or extremely base level analysis of something the "common sense" perspective, that automatically lends it an air of authenticity, especially if you throw in some vaguely related statistics. Than you can feel like the rational, pragmatic empiricist without having to use any brainpower. And from that perspective it's easier to frame the other side as ideologues relying on dubious academic theorizing detached from reality.
@@yukansk7834 This is a very well-written summation of these youtubers perspectives. Well maybe not only to youtubers, this also applies to the way of thinking for most of my conservative relatives that haven't researched the topics they off-handedly dismiss.
@@zz8az It's the same with my reactionary relatives. It's so frustrating to try and break through that self-image in discussions. I think this deeply ironic confusion of intuition born out of ideological bias with rationality and empiricism is the lifeblood of all these kinds of modern right-wing populism. It's exactly the same here in Germany. You have to deal with trumpism, we have to deal with the AfD...
I love that these 'Gamer' bros point out that the main audience for video games are typically men, and don't go, gee, I wonder if that has to do with an aggressive media campaign to market to boys, and stories that explicitly caters to male power fantasies and decades of online gaming that harasses women every time they join a lobby. Like, they prove her point.
@@legalize.brokkoli pull what allegations out of their ass? The harassment was EVERYWHERE, there were channels that talked about nothing else for the longest time and people to this day justify that they deserve harassment and death threats because they dared enter an online space.
games tend to appeal more to men because more men seem to play AAA titles more than women, it's supply and demand, it's just gotta be profitable, simple as that that being said, there's still a lot of games appealing to women and including female power fantasies, it's really common
So, I am subscribed to the Feminist Frequency channel so I have sen quite a few of Ms Sarkeesian's videos. I don't agree with every thing that she (and the rest of the hosts) say, but I enjoy the different lens through which to view video games. As video games are literally my favorite thing in the world (sorry family) hearing them talked about in different ways is super awesome. Like, "hmm, I never thought about it like that..." and stuff like that.
Hello, I am curious and wanted to ask you a question. How often do you watch videos of Feminist Frequency? They have over 200k subscribers but their videos only seem to attract a few thousand views each.
i dont think its nice to look through a different lens. gaming already has thousand of genres and thousands of different games and people who make them. we already have so many different lenses and if you want to look through a specific lens just say the word. i cant stand anita sarkeesian because she is trying to devalue video games and everyone who makes them just because they go against her beliefs
@@HeadRedShot This doesn't quite make sense to me. We're talking about lenses in terms of criticism, different genres existing is just not related. I'd also argue that she doesn't de-value games, rather, by critiquing them she's actually asserting that they are valuable. Growing up, most of games writing were just reviews, "should you buy this?". That's because at the time they were viewed by the mainstream as frivolous entertainment made for little boys, so they were just products rather than 'art' like film and literature. That's been slowly changing over the past 2 decades as games, as a medium, and gamers have continued to develop; now we have all kinds of people online talking about games as meaningful pieces of culture. And what Sarkeesian is doing is just a continuation of this trend. She's analyzing games with feminist theory the same way academics do with other forms of art. It's fine if you disagree with her opinions, but she's not advocating for games to go away or trying to devalue them, it's the opposite; she wants us to think about games more and consider them valuable and impactful. She even looks at older, simpler games that were explicitly made to entertain children, like Super Mario Bros., and says "Hey, this isn't just frivolous entertainment, this has had an impact on us and our culture and it is worth examining." Again, you don't need to agree with her or like her presentation, but I hope you can see why I think people like her represent necessary growth for the medium.
@@HadBabits i can get that, but the lens anita islooking through doesnt really exist. in legend of zelda link saves zelda and kills the evil man. thats all the game is about and its impossible to say its sexist, but yet anita says its objectively sexist because prince saves princess and thats just bullshit. its like shes saying zelda is just an object in a story, but in reality in all games she is working her ass off. what i have noticed with anita is that she doesnt know everything about a game before she critiques it, and thats just dumb
I don't know why the idea of critiquing media we're a fan of is such a terrible idea to some, we can still enjoy it but it's important to learn and grow from things and understand what they say about us
Anti-intellectualism is a very real (and increasingly popular) phenomenon. You ever hear the cliched, Brooklyn-accented line, "What, you think you're better than me?" It's that, plus some deep stupid, plus some dumb feelings of being personally attacked by criticism. Capitalism encourages people to invest their personal identities into the products they buy. To form strong emotional connections. Therefore, criticism of an object can (and often is) interpreted as criticism of the people who enjoy it. And if that criticism is valid... well, that makes it wound all the more.
I'll tell you why it's a terrible idea: When you do it completely dishonestly. Which she does. She goes out of her way to edit things to make roundabout point with no basis in fact. She's a borderline conwoman.
'Anti-intellectualism is a very real (and increasingly popular) phenomenon' - the problem is Anita is leading the charge in this department. She's riding a narrative for fame and profit and everything she says can be dismantled by a 5th grader.
Ok, so I was raised conservative, and when I left the religion I was raised in, I watched a lot of youtube atheist content, including Sargon of Akkad and Thunderfoot. I became very anti-SJW while watching their content (I was like 13-16 at this time) but I stopped watching their videos, and in the past few years my political views have been moving further and further left, thus leading me to watching this video, and after years of not hearing their voices or seeing their videos, I just have one question.... Were they always this annoying? Like content aside, just the way Thunderfoot talks is really annoying to me, and it's just like "did I really use to enjoy this content? Why?"
The areligious community is not all terrible like this, but it does give me a reminder that there are always assholes despite the banner. There are a lot of good religious groups around and if they fit you, go for it. There are also some (I'm gonna create a term here) Peri-religious groups, looking at you UUs, that can be your thing. There also are some individual ways to go, or fully out altogether. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, do you. I'm an atheist, (I think I legally have to say that? It was with the agreement with the vegans, I think?) but good people tend to have good beliefs which leads to healthier belief systems, and there are many ways to do that.
Funny, isn't it? I remember loving watching Thunderf00t 'dunk' on Creationists when I was going through That Phase myself. He lost me as soon as he shifted his attention to feminism in general and Anita in particular, but I still remember looking back as his Creationism videos and thinking "Damn, was he always sound like this from the other side?" Even now, while I'm still an atheist, my Hot Take is that you can be an atheist and also not be a d**k about it.
Feminists: This video game portrays women like objects and I find that concept degrading. Salty gamer bois: No, you don’t understand, it’s okay for women to be portrayed as objects, because that’s what men like! .-.
I would like to know what these games are that portray women as nothing more than objects. And if they're anything like she claims in Bioshock: Infinite, you've already lost the argument.
Most people don't understand that if you criticize something they enjoy, that doesn't mean you want to forbid it from existing, censor it, think that the people who enjoy it are pieces of shit and want to destroy their lives. People take things way too personally and have a very difficult time distinguishing what they like from who they are which I find to be of grave concern. And Ironically it's always the 'free speech lovers' that get their panties in a twist a soon as somebody uses their free speech to be critical. And I say this as someone who's not much of an Anita Sarkeesian fan.
"f you criticize something they enjoy, that doesn't mean you want to forbid it from existing, censor it, think that the people who enjoy it are pieces of shit and want to destroy their lives" yes it does. Stop lying.
Its more just annoying when someone over analyses say Mario, and then attempts to fit it into this grand feminist narrative. And then I think its the threat of bringing Pc culture into gaming and stifling edgy content is what pissed people off.
Every time guys make these sort of clueless defenses of sexism I’m reminded of the time I watched Shrek 2 with my brother and he said “He should have kissed her! Fiona is way better looking as a human!” and I responded “Yeah, so is Shrek” and he gave me this completely dumbfounded look like he hadn’t even considered the female perspective. He was so used to everything catering to the male perspective that he just assumed I thought the same as him, that even as a straight woman my focus would be on Fiona’s attractiveness too. That’s what these guys sound like when they’re acting like there’s no problem and mindlessly repeating stuff they’ve heard like “s*x work isn’t bad so this character isn’t bad” without understanding the lager picture. What they rally mean is “I don’t want it to be bad so it can’t be and here are some quotes I’ve heard taken out of context to prove that”
@@trip9845 It’s probably safe to assume they were referring to the subjects of this video-Phil Mason (thunderf00t) and his contemporaries and hangers on. More generally, Jordan Peterson would probably be the most well-known, non-gamergate defender of gender hierarchies. His supporters would argue that his arguments aren’t “defending sexism” but they certainly defend the conditions where sexism thrives. He’s influenced a lot of similar talking heads among the internet “skeptic” and atheist groups, the subjects of this video included, who tend to blather on about “SJWs” and contort themselves to find some modicum of objective evidence that justifies traditional power structures.
@@ashtimbog As long as an ogre has the cognitive wherewithal to provide affirmative consent, I say go get ‘em player. Presumably, they have the capacity to tear the limbs from your torso if you try anything they’re not down with, but just like with humans, it’s better to ask first and respect their boundaries. On a somewhat related note, remember to practice safe ogre sex-use a condom and, to further ensure you won’t be gored and quartered while in the throes of mythical animal passion, be sure to agree on a good safe word (I recommend “loobin-schloobin”).
The makeup... wtf was that "Don't sexualize women, look at how it's so prevalent in this industry and how that's bad" "You wear makeup to make yourself sexy" Whattt
What do you think makeup is for? Why do you think human women put certain colors on their face, when it's not Halloween? Do you think it's just coincidence that the most popular styles of makeup mimic the appearance of women who are at peak fertility? Conversely, do you think that men spend lots of money on dates with women because they are just naturally generous? Or is it perhaps showing off the status symbol of being able to pay that much? Sweet Jesus, it amazes me that human beings think that millions of years of mammalian courtship instincts all magically turned off when we came along, and none of it ever affects our behavior ever.
bruh chill women just wear it cause its pretty and looks good but the intent isnt all about men, “looking peak fertile” 😬??? it’s just an art form and for fun
@@j1430 Nah. One thing I've learned that I've found to be universally true: If there's something humans do that is incredibly popular, but seems frivolous, there's a reason for it we aren't seeing. If makeup was just art, we'd see more women going around like they came out of a carnival face painting tent. Butterflies and rainbows and skulls and swirls. Actual designs. Instead, we see the same behavior everywhere: pale skin, rosy cheeks, and red, red lips. It's horrifying to think that the barbaric amorality of nature has so much grip over us that it's making our decisions without us knowing why. I get that. But understanding that process is the best first step to rebelling and making our own, conscious, choices. As a transhumanist, I'm all about that. We're not going to become more than we are until we understand how we got here.
@@AlexReynard Women wear makeup to look pretty, to _feel_ pretty, or (shockingly!) just to have fun with it. What is your point? When I wear a nice dress and a hat that I feel cute in, I'm also doing it to look & feel good about my appearance. Where is the crime? _And why do women specifically need to be called out for it?_
It's funny, that first video by Thunderbunny was actually the point I became interested feminist theory. Before that I was actually pretty convinced by the hole sceptic community, but his argument was so strained and had so many holes that 15 year old me thought maybe 'I should give this hole femonism thwng a go'
@gianni pischella So just as a small point of interest the "Oppressor vs oppressed" rhetoric is probably more influenced by Hegel's 'master and slave dialectic' than Marx's 'class dialectic', but kudos for getting that, most people don't see the continuum at all. I hadn't heard of the Norwegian equality paradox before so I will look more into it, but what I could find from a quick google search isn't actually inconsistent with feminist theory. Naomi Wolf's ' the beauty myth'/ Judith Butler's 'Gender Trouble'/ and Hert Marcuse's 'One - Dimensional Man' all make arguments based on humans instinct to learn social behaviours, such as speech or morality but in this case, gender roles. This is why most feminist theorists make the distinction between sex as biology and gender as social conditioning. Mary Jan Kehily's and Joan Swann's 'Children's Cultural World' (btw a phycology textbook with no obvert feminist leaning) argues that most people bais understanding of society and language is internalised onto the subconscious by age 6 - 8, and after this, the child will look for patterns to reinforce the behaviour. It's like how people assume an Alfa/ Beta dichotomy onto nature because we grow up with hierarchies as an assumed norm, hearing that it has a place in nature it makes sense, even though not only is there no certified scientific evidence supporting any Alfa/ Beta dichotomy occurring in biology, there is also a plethora of research and evidence (e.g. Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce's 'Wild Justice' ) proving the opposite. This is to say that unlearning gender after age 8 is extremely difficult, and so you would expect women to act submissively without external pressure to do so. This is actually kind of the point feminist frequency was trying to make, that regardless of legal equality if media continued to teach gender as it does then there could never be true equality among the sexes. (Note: as far as aware the first this idea of media influencing internalised behaviour was Edward Bernay's, a capitalist, so that's kind of funny I guess.) So a genderless society would require an entire generation to grow up not just with legal equality but also without gendered social learning. But as I said I'll look into the Norwegian equality paradox in more detail, I'm sure it will be enlightening.
Agree or disagree with Sarkeesian she brings up issues that should have discussion...and nothing said should have encouraged the vitriol she encountered.
You're free to voice your arguments but you will have to accept that so will I. Calling a counter argument "harassment" and blocking conversation when you run out of arguments is no way to engage in a sensible argument.
@@0x777 That's the irony of her existence now and with her bad takes as of late she lost a lot of creditability. Everybody know she posts bad takes to piss people off, people now know to kinda ignore her.
Red lips are a psychological signal to men about a woman's sexuality, wearing red lipstick has the effect of arousing men, it doesn't matter if you know it or now that's what it does. A simple google search will tell you the truth "is make-up sexual display?"
Love the assertion that "Games are like this because they're _made_ for _men_ !!!" Like yeah, that's literally her point; they're made only to appeal to men and they use harmful tropes to achieve that and that's a problem. It's not even that she's advocating any repercussions, she's literally just pointing it out because games have historically also been made _by_ men and therefore have a bias that they don't even realize; it's just about awareness and reflection.
It's good to make things for men. It's good for men to make things. What needs reflection is the beauty of men, and the harm toxic feminity does to men, and the reparations required from women because of toxic feminity.
I used to be a big fan of Thunderfoot (kinda still like him), Armored Skeptic and Shoeonhead, I fully bought into the anti-feminist thing and thought SJWs going overboard with feminism is going to lead to some sort of 1984-style thought police and anti-free-speech totalitarianism. Fortunately with Trump bringing out the worst in people and Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign pulling me to the left on most issues I started to realize how overblown the fearmongering about third-wave feminist is and how necessary intersectional activism still is. I also give Shaun, Hbomberguy and Three Arrows credit for offering a different point of view. To this day I still have a hard time to "like" Anita, but I've come a long way and I'm thankful for that.
I think there needs to be a move from anti- feminism to responsible critiques of feminism. There is a lot wrong with the viewpoint, such as a constant denial of human nature as natural. But there is also a lot right with it. I now consider myself an egalitarian, as I think there is room for all ideas and not enough emphasis on male issues in feminism. I live as an egalitarian but accept the patriarchy as a model that is fulfilling to many people's lives. We shouldn't try to smash the patriarchy as much as limit its effect on those who don't want to live that model. So equal opportunity for all.
I was in the same place, It's hard to admit you were wrong about something. But even still after I've improved my understanding of feminism I still cant see Anita's content as being anything other than very poorly made and misleading arguments for her points.
*sips martini while watching TAA* Wow...that was some incredible free speech right there. *swivels chair* And Joel, how do you respond to the idea that you're offended by everything and that you should get some Real Life Experience like TAA definitely has before expressing your opinion?
I guess that's the deal with art and media - statements aren't made in a vacuum. They're made by people who have certain ideas and messages, to be consumed by people who are ready to absorb those ideas and messages, and by people who already hold these ideas and messages as true or appealing. I'm sick of being told I should ignore the ideas and messages that I spot in media, as if my own mind is over reacting, and that I should just accept media as a blank, context-less slate. This video helped untangle some knots in my mind, so thank you for making it.
Than simply view the media that speaks to you and don't worry about the media that others consume. I think we want to impose on others and that becomes an arms race between liberals and conservatives. There is plenty of media made by and for liberals I don't think the market is flooded worth "harmful" conservative ideas. And I say this as a liberal myself.
The industrial amount of gaslighting encountered when interacting whith that kind of people Is just disgusting. And even harmful when they influence youg minds, they teach to haté and to dismis the others even when confronted with solid evidence.
@brad Lite Or one could criticize messages they see as being bad to the public. Ideas often do translate into action thus should be examined, deciphered and evaluated. ”Birth of a nation” was dangerous beyond humouring a lot of conservative white people. It galvanized white-people to the Klan who in turn terrorized much of society. Media is largely not just some mindless filler that has no impact on the rest of society. It does have impact in how people view the world. Promoting racist, or sexist, or homophobic ideas should be criticized whether it's someone just screaming it on the street or in a movie or videogame.
You're too early. Wait 24-48 hours for the real dumb-dumbs to find this video. That's when the real gems will emerge. Remember to CTRL+F the letter combinations "fem," "soy," "cuc," and "sjw" so you don't miss anything.
Arguing that Mario isn't a male power fantasy because it's about a working class blue collar dude who proves himself to and wins the affections of a princess by defeating a bunch of bad guys is... an interesting take. I'll give Thunderfoot that.
Then remember Mario make more sense when he was in his King Kong parody in Donkey Kong since the women Pauline is more representative of "Damsel in Distress" because it is a whole ass parody. Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom is on a damn wild goose chase and some kids honestly never saw the end of the game UNTIL YT came to be.
You have really been making me think Big Joel. I’ve only been watching for two days and you’re making rethink a lot of stuff in my life. This s good stuff.
Mario is about the upper class only being able to survive on the backs of the working class. Bowser is economic recession and Peach refuses to take steps to protect herself, knowing that Mario (the working class) will come and bail her out.
@@artemisentreri-isaacs3059 time where Sarkeesian said that such material showing depictions of (____a____) in(____b____) reinforces (_____c____) Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 28 minutes and 25 seconds Women as Reward - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 29 minutes and 20 seconds her glc video Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 18 minutes 15 seconds yes she backpedals hard not even 5 seconds later she goes back at it Lingerie is not Armor Tropes vs Women in Video Games 15 minutes 48 seconds this video (the video game The Video Games Cause Violence Argument) so yes it her entire premises
@@justinlevy274 That doesn't equate to the purpose of it being to imply arousal...Wearing blush does not mean you want to express arousal to everyone around you 24/7, obviously. We just find it attractive, so it looks good, it doesn't matter that the reason we find it attractive is because of sex. When someone wears blush they do that for themselves because they want to look good, They're not doing it to make other people around them horny.
@@bruh666 You can't so easily separate attractiveness and looking good with sexuality. Wearing make up to look more attractive equates with increasing the arousal level of those around you. I was simply filling in information about the mechanism. The mechanism is relevant to the point the youtuber was making, also nothing for you to barf over. Make up is more commonly worn in social contexts. It is on a part of the body that interacts most frequently with others. It is not worn by a woman for herself. Perhaps that's what she says to herself consciously but subconsciously that is what's happening.
@@justinlevy274 Have you never heard of asexuality? Asexual women still wear make up.. Because it looks good. Do you not understand that there is such a thing as a concept of beauty outside of sex? We see beauty in art, in colors we like, in shiny rocks. Obviously we also see beauty in make up in the same way. Make up is not always about looking attractive to someone else; it's often just to look good, the way a pretty painting can look good. Not necessarily sexual. And it is this weird insistence that something a woman does would be sexual or to arouse others, even though women themselves saying this is not true, that makes me want to barf. It's literally just sexualization and you don't just see it when people talk about make up, also in clothing and so much more. I don't understand why you would insist that they're doing it for "arsousal", even though women themselves deny it..
I feel dirty, red lipstick apparently implies arousal. I just thought it looked badass. I didn't realize it would cause people to have hard-ons when I wear it walking down the street. I feel so dirty.
He's saying that he's a creep is what he's saying lol. He's also implying that all of us men are just sexual monsters who can't control our dicks. As if whenever we see something that's attractive to us it always means that we enter sex mode. NOT TRUE. Time and a place for that. Well maybe it's true with a creep like Thunderfool...
@@MrCmon113 okay first off you don't know how old this person is. if this person is underage, then yeah, it is horrifying that people (adults) would be sexually aroused by them, that's disgusting. second of all, shut up.
@@MrCmon113 theres a difference between arousal and being found attractive. Dont mind me when the idea that every mans dick got hard everytime i just put on some lipstick makes me uncomfortable and frankly, disgusted. And thats ridiculous like the first commenter said. And it doesnt matter what age i am for that matter
Hey, the game can be improved on cus it doesn't show women as people "But women aren't being killed by that game! FACTS" Yeah... but you can still improve the game. that's what a critique does
@@hitlerjusthitlerliterallyh2700 you definitely are. He's referring to argument that because a game isn't actually persuading people to kill women irl, the misogyny in them is okay
@@Somebodyelse141 how is it misogyny if the game never forces you to kill random woman because guess what? Men can be killed in the exact same ways plus she goes out of her way to kill the people that the game actually suggests are bad targets and then goes MUH MISOGYNY plus she is an absolute garbage human in real life
@@hitlerjusthitlerliterallyh2700 ooohh I see why the original commentor didn't respond. You just refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit your preconceived meaning of the comment. The comment was not talking about whether or not you can murder females in a game. We're not talking about a specific game, so it's pointless to argue about whether an imaginary game is actually misogynistic or not. For the sake of the example it is. If you insist that this imaginary game cannot actually be sexist-- thereby implying that games are never sexist-- go ahead. But it's dumb. And the original comment nor mine were talking about Anita. Why are you bringing up irrelevant things?
I only became aware of her because of Thunderfoot when I thought he was a reasonable man, which is why I hated her for a number of years. I since started watching her videos, and she genuinely made some great points and had me aware of the problematic tropes that I just brushed over in the past even though I don't agree with her quite often. On a hindsight, it felt so easy and comfortable to let someone else form my opinion even though it was quite obviously the antithesis of being an independent thinker as I wish myself as.
A lot of us went through a phase like that. It's easy to start to believe some youtube talking head who PWNS literally the dumbest arguments on the internet, namely those of creationists and flat earthers, is a Really Smart Guy whose opinions are always on point. You live and you learn.🤷
tbh both are kind of wrong. neither of them really understand the impact gameplay has on the preception of a character. what pissed me off about Anita was her lackluster research and analysis.from what I see, she looks at vg's as movies with multiple endings, which is insufficient.
@@kenonerboy I agree and disagree. She does interpret games from mechanical angle at times. My problem with Anita's analyses is that she sometimes holds the pretense of tearing something apart with feminist reading instead of genuinely finding a piece of text conveying a mysogenistic message. Take the infamous Hitman Absolution as an example, she claims the game encourages players to observe the strippers or knock them out and drag them around in arousing fashion, but the game portrays them not in a titalating way but an empathetical one. The club was framed as a place of exploitation and reflective of the toxic masculinity of the owner, which you have to kill. The point of the spot where she demonstrated her point to me is to overhear their conversation and develop compassion for their misery, which is backed up by the fact that they never look away from the mirrors and will not be a threat at all. The entire game presents a grim dark reality of the exploitative nature of capitalism and income disparity. The cities are always dilepitated and shrouded in grey. It puts the stripper scene in context that Anita just kinda ignored. Edit: sorry for the spellings. I'm typing on a phone.
I wish this video existed several years ago and snapped me and my dumbass out of the anita hate circlejerk. Even as someone who really enjoyed Double Dragon Neon and Binary Domain I can see Anitas point ragrding their depiction of women, and its nice to see that point put into context instead of misrepresented by some hack skeptic who takes the scenario too literally.
Nevertheless it is a legitimate interpretation of a videogames narrative. Assuming you mean "takes the scenario too literally" as people interpreting these videogames with a realistic lens.
@@DrCooch I think that point is made in this video, the intrerpretation of double dragon as a love story, why are these things mutually exclusive? Can we not say that Double Dragon is an exaggeratted fun story about romance and also has a particualrly crap depiction of a female character? It doesn't really address Anita's point to just say that she's being too literal because she clearly isn't making an arguement that Double Dragon is real life or influences anything in real life and she says as much in her video on the subject.
I never hated anita (never knew her back then) but I used to hate SJWs. Which is weird because I consider myself as a feminist, but hated the term "feminism". My experience is best explained by "contrapoints" where feminists are painted to be these uncool loud and evil women wanting to end men. So by saying I hate feminism, I accidentally contribute to this anti feminism propaganda even if it's not my belief!this made me really want to be wary of the internet especially with the weird shit the white supremacists are doing.
It's not a "circle jerk". She's a terrible, unintelligent, hateful person who deserves to be completely excluded from compassionate, rational society. She's lower that roach feces.
Hey Joel, I've been watching you for a year or so and I just wanted to say that this video was particularly on point. You really put in to words a lot of the points I've thought before (I'm a woman who likes games for context). I actually started watching Anita's videos a year or two before they got famous - I remember when her videos had a few 10K views and were like 95% upvotes. I was actually baffled when the community turned so hard on her. She doesn't even say anything particularly controversial, and she also doesn't call for the destruction of games or anything, she just gives her critique. Anyway, thanks very much for the content, I'll go check out your patreon now.
The only reason Mario is a plumber is that when working with extremely primitive game displays, a few pixels to give him overalls is enough to make him more than just a generic man form. Aside from his ability to use pipes to travel around the Mushroom Kingdom, there is no evidence he even knows about plumbing. The only place he's actually treated like a low-class plumber is in the incredibly different movie adaptation, which most Mario fans completely disavow. In the actual games, he's treated like a standard knight figure who happens to wear overalls. Trying to pretend that the Mario games actually represent a low-class man is just intellectual dishonesty. No one could seriously make that argument. There's no serious debate even occurring; it's "shut up" pretending to be smart.
Ok, but why a plumber vs anything else that could easily be conveyed with NES-era pixel art? Why not a knight, for example? I also am not sure of any claim that Mario was meant to be working class, but your reasons for why it most definitely isn't is not convincing.
@@xBINARYGODx Keep in mind that Mario started as Jumpman, the protagonist of Donkey Kong, for Atari and related hardware, not even NES. Jumpman was so primitive that overalls were just about the best they could do to make him distinctive. He was reused for Super Mario Bros, which replaced the King Kong knockoff with a surreal knight quest story with koopas, goombas, and other trippy things. None of it really makes sense. Look at Legend of Zelda for something with more thematic consistency.
Remember when a handful of misanthropic neckbeards convinced a bunch of impressionable kids to harass a reasonable pop culture critic? Those were gentler times.
@The Bandog Nice fantasy there, buddy. From Wikipedia: "The Tropes vs Women project triggered a campaign of sexist harassment against Sarkeesian that included rape and death threats, hacking of her webpages and social media, and doxing. Attackers posted disparaging comments online, vandalized Sarkeesian's article on Wikipedia with racial slurs and sexual images, and sent Sarkeesian drawings of herself being raped by video game characters.[32][33][34][35][36] One attacker created the computer game Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian, which prompted players to bloody a picture of Sarkeesian by clicking the mouse.[34][37] Toronto feminist Stephanie Guthrie received death and rape threats for criticizing the Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian game.[33][38][39][40] The resulting criminal trial against critic Gregory Alan Elliott is regarded as having significant implications for online freedom of speech in Canada.[41][42] Sarkeesian responded to the threats against Guthrie in a statement to the Toronto Standard, condemning the widespread harassment she and other women have faced online.[43][44] Sarkeesian's elevated profile led to speaking engagements on sexual harassment and online communities at the TEDxWomen conference and several universities.[45][46][47][48][49] In March 2014, Sarkeesian was scheduled to speak and receive an award at the 2014 Game Developers Choice Awards. The organizers later revealed that they had received an anonymous bomb threat and that San Francisco police had swept the Moscone Center hall before the event proceeded.[50] In August 2014, Feminist Frequency issued a new Tropes vs Women in Games episode. This coincided with the ongoing harassment of Zoë Quinn as part of the Gamergate controversy. The increased volume and specificity of the harassment (including death threats) prompted Sarkeesian to leave her home. San Francisco Police confirmed that they had passed the case file to the FBI for investigation.[51][52] On October 14, 2014, Sarkeesian and Utah State University received terrorist threats pertaining to her planned lecture at the university the following day. The threats, one of which was issued by a person who claimed to be affiliated with Gamergate,[53] specifically cited the 1989 École Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, Quebec, Canada as inspiration. The university and police did not believe the threats were credible inasmuch as they were consistent with others Sarkeesian had received, but scheduled enhanced security measures nonetheless. Sarkeesian canceled the event, however, feeling the planned security measures were insufficient given that the university could not prohibit handguns in the venue per Utah state law.[54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61] In an August 2015 interview with The Guardian, Sarkeesian remarked of dealing with the pervasive harassment (her "new normal") that older mentors and feminists told her "We were dealing with that, but they were throwing rocks at us".[62] The media scholar Soraya Murray describes the attack as a "watershed moment" in the "culture war" being fought over representations of women and minorities in video games.[21] "
@Chandler Burse An out-of-control leftie can't do nearly as much damage as an out-of-control rightie. What's the leftie going to do -- equality and fairness his opponent to death?
@Chandler Burse Well it's not my place to argue. You've seen what you've seen. But given that white nationalists are the deadliest terrorist group in the U.S., meaning they've killed more people in recent years than any other terrorist group, I tend to fear them more than any anti-police protesters.
@Chandler Burse I agree that the extremists are not going to solve any problems. I hope someday we will get back to where people who disagree can just sit down and talk it out.
when I was a teenager I hated Anita Sarkeesian and loved watching SJW fail/owned comps I try to live a life defined by understanding and compassion nowadays - it's just a shame at how much of a negative impact people like Sargon can have
have you actually looked at Sarkeesian, past her feminism? she scams people out of their money, she's a hypocrite and she's a hateful person, in general. whenever she hates on sexy female characters, it never sounds like a genuine critique, it just sounds like she hates women, who look better than her. her whole demeanor is so passive aggressive, it's unbearable! i feel like if she was a man, most people would see what kind of person she really is. she has zero interest in the media, she's criticizing and yet she acts like a total expert on said media. THIS is why people hate her! and even if i would be a feminist, i still wouldn't like her, at all. because her behavior doesn't suggest that she actually wants equal rights. rather the opposite.
Young people are easy to manipulate, that's why they want you to pray and say the pledge of allegiance, trying to force someone to sign a contract before they can read so you can later accept a weak argument without question.
@ShaddowSabbath I think you're being a bit absurd. Why shouldn't people be allowed to be upset when things aren't going their way by little fault of their own.
@@93.5friendshipstation Just reside among the rest of us who are completely befuddled that such a game has an intense competitive scene. Just let it sit there in your mind. You don't need to do anything with it.
I disagree with Anita Sarkessian(I do agree with some of her points though) but I don't think she should've gotten the toxicity turned towards that she has.
@@COOLMCDEN I don't know, I think they're pretty different. Because despite women's poor treatment were they necessarily hated ? I don't think so. Perhaps underappreciated and undervalued, but hated I think fails to accurately describe how women were viewed then.
The problem with Anita is she focused on every single example of female characters in videos that could be construed as "sexist". Multiple times she listed nuanced female characters with sexualized traits as sexist despite their own personal strengths. She wasn't very informed on games and Josh Macintosh clearly read summaries for quite a few games stories rather than experiencing it himself
I still think a lot of her criticisms are invalid she definitely ignored the context for many of the games she criticizes. However I don’t condemn anybody because they make what I feel to be bad criticisms. She did absolutely abuse her Kickstarter though. The production cost on her show is not so high that it justifies the infrequency with which she puts out shows. And she totally didn’t deliver on the Kickstarter prizes. Good video but it didn’t convince me of very much. I do agree with you that the way she has been criticized by anti-sjws isn’t optimal. I don’t despise Anita sarkeesian but I do think she stains what should be legitimate discourse. Looking at games through a feminist lens could bring about interesting discussion. But not the way she does it.
gianni pischella I can understand that. Obviously games are a good way to take a break from all that political bullshit but looking at media from a political lens is an interesting thought exercise. I don’t necessarily think the modern feminist perspective on media is correct but it’s engaging nonetheless. It’s just an interesting method of critique. But I totally get that the game’s quality shouldn’t be judged by a political rubric. I love video games and it would suck if they became an predominantly political thing.
Felt the whole 25k crowd funding for a discord server scummy to her fans with a further stretch goal 35k for virtual online visit to high school which both things can be done for free
gianni pischella I don’t think the feminist perspective is at all especially worthy. It’s just the topic of discussion. It’s fine to assess art from any and all lenses. And I’d say feminism was moreso derived from classic liberal philosophy than it was from Marxism. At least in its origin. Feminism predates Marxism. And just to make it clear, I’m not a feminist at least in the academic sense. I’m all for equality of the sexes but not for forced outcomes. I don’t care for feminist academia. Also it’s super cool that this while feminist conversation isn’t an American only thing because other perspectives can be really refreshing.
Games are art, art affects culture, and thus it is important to criticise that art when it presents a harmful ideology. It doesn't mean you can't like said art, but it's important to acknowledge its flaws. Love ya Joel ❤
Svartalfur Art CAN affect culture, but it doesn't necessarily ALWAYS affect culture. I mean, violent video games are increasingly popular and yet the overall amount of violent crime has actually gone down in much of the western world as sales of these games increase.
@gianni pischella Criticism is not censorship. You just criticized my comment by expressing a different opinion, but you did NOT censor it because it is still there and you don't have the power to remove it. See the difference?
i’m sorry but i immediately lose respect for everyone who says something like FACTS and LOGIC or whatever when talking about feminism or leftism or whatever. like i don’t like anita but anti-SJWs who spend all their time yelling at feminists are as, if not more immature than the people they yell at.
Yeah I find it hard to listen to people who constantly act like they are so much better and smarter then other people. It just makes your argument sound weaker .
Most feminists are just sick of not being treated equally in life or sexualized for no reason and incels are pissed that they’re becoming less easy to get
Actual rationality and objectivity don’t exist when we’re speaking about other parts of constructed society... for the record, IQ doesn’t exist either, humans don’t have a measurably universal intelligence, it’s just eugenics and faux race science (all race science is fake) these dudes love bc it makes them feel special and idk, ubermensch. I can’t take people seriously when they talk about that shit. I do have a soft spot of the facts and logic meme but in its memetic quality only
I love that he reduces her wearing lipstick to trying to look aroused. Nothing to do with wanting to look nice for herself and in front of the all seeing camera.
in his defense, when i get turned on my lips turn crayola red and my eyelashes transform into sharp dark points. it's really annoying and scary and i'm glad someone is finally bringing attention to it
@@MajorstiQ hopefully you were being sarcastic? if not: there are many ways people alter their appearance, and many reasons. many of those reasons are just as much for the person who is changing their looks, as it is for other people. if this is news to you, then I suggest you research it more. at the very least, consider talking to people about why they do what they do with their looks.
If a feminist looks good, then she's undercutting her own beliefs because she did it to appease men. If a feminist looks bad, well that's just the default and she's an acceptable target for any harassment thrown her way. Great way to immediately dismiss a person no matter what they look like!
Glad I’m not the only one who cringed at this. White males are obviously the least oppressed demographic and plumbers, while not having the most glorious title, make very good money and easily reside in the upper middle class. Obviously much more maligned than the innocent black teenagers gunned down by racist cops.
Everyone knows that when you finally get to save Peach, she just turns you down and says "I don't date Italian plumbers," and if that's not underprivileged I don't know what is.
One part that stood out to me was when those RUclipsrs said that video games are directed to males, so _obviously_ they would objectify women. What about the females that play video games like me? What about the males not attracted to females? I feel like part of the reason there aren't that many females that play video games is because it seems so "male-centric". Maybe if we had different protagonist options (e.g. male, female, non-binary, etc), then we could have more different genders playing these games, and ultimately, changing some of the video game industry.
If companies see that reaching out to certain demographics is not profitable, because those demographics will not spend much money on products, even when they cater to them, then companies cannot be blamed if they don't cater to those demographics. Are makeup companies sexist because they don't offer equal amounts of products catering to men? Are romance novel publishers sexist? Or are we ascribing malicious motives to companies, rather than considering the possibility that, yes, given a free choice, more men than women will spend their money on [x], and more women than men will spend their money on [y]. I guess it's easier to blame capitalism than to admit that some inequality is the fault of no one but natural selection.
"Video games are predominantly for male audiences" I always find issue with this statement as it's terribly reductive. Being a woman myself, I remember being in awe of well-done, powerful and ambitious female characters like Yennefer from Witcher or Cynthia from Pokemon, to name but a few. This may be very anecdotal, but it's important to keep in mind that representation, when done right, can be an increasingly good thing.
The Witcher is really gross on women. The player literally collects them as playing card sex trophies in the first game. Sure, Yennefer is cool and all, but her goodish (she sucks in the first game but gets better over time) character is in service of a game that is unabashedly for male audiences.
@@MrCmon113 Literally having women in your game be collectible sex trading cards? That is absolutely abhorrent and if you cannot see how that is gross, you are too far gone to talk to.
@@TheSLATEcleaner There is plenty of games in which you collect bounties or just kill counts. Compared to that collecting sex partners is rather wholesome imo.
Thank you, Big Joel (who is neither big, nor joel) I used to be really into this discourse and still have a sort of post-traumatic-like experience when I think about Anita's work. I have grown a lot since then, and stopped finding those popular voices of descent nearly as entertaining as I did at the time. I still do think that there is a framework or tone that Anita uses that is inherently off-putting, but even at the time I knew the way counter-arguments were being formed was weak and weaponized. I thank you because it was very cathartic to hear what was wrong from you. It helped me see why I grew away from the Thunderfoots and Sargons and have found myself somewhere else. Somewhere very different. You're making a difference, and please keep it up!
Clybournes Clyburn She speaks calmly, is clear, and the content was actually fun to watch most of the time. How the heck is that off putting really? What more does she need to do, be even nicer? I think statements like this is just people looking for a reason to give to themselves for acting irrationally. A need for a logical reason to explain a completely irrational reaction (because we like to think of ourselves as being completely rational all the time). I'd say just be as honest as possible about your reasons for believing what you did, and admit there really weren't any good ones
First off, the commenter below you is way out of line. Reported them for the vicious slurs and other nonsense. Anyway... sometimes people don't understand their emotions, but they don't just have emotions for no reason. Suggesting that that's the case is pretty irrational. Clyburn up there admitted that they had misunderstood their emotions which led to hateful behavior and that they have since grown as a person, even though they still don't understand those same emotions. Clyburn is being as honest as possible. If someone was deceived about a specific fact, for example how often they needed to drink water, and told you they needed to drink less often than they really did and then became dehydrated, they wouldn't have been dishonest. They just didn't know they needed to drink water more often. You can't admit something you don't know. I'd wager that Clyburn feels the way they do because games, particularly some of the games that Sarkeesian critiques, are near and dear to them and attached to important memories in their life or have otherwise provided them with needed support and stability, often physiologically and psychologically, in times of need. An attack on these games would then appear to them as a personal attack on their psychological stability in the same way that someone advocating for harsh punishments for heroin use might. Obviously, that doesn't mean that those games are a good thing, just like heroin isn't a good thing, but it does logically explain the response. It's definitely not "no reason". I know mostly you're just poking holes in the "rationality" rhetoric they use, but it's also a pretty toxic rhetoric that I literally wouldn't wish the use of upon my worst enemies.
"the damsel in distress trope is good, actually, because the kidnapper is bad and the guy saving her is doing a good thing" might be the single dumbest argument I have heard in my life, which is saying A *LOT.* (just found your channel through your "conservative comedy ruined my life" video and I'm binging, hi, love your stuff)
As a man, twilight is obviously grossly sexist. Two men fighting over a woman? That normalizes the idea that men are meatbags who women can pick and chose. We live in a society, we can't have works of fiction not measured by the gram to be 100% balanced between male and female protagonists.
Saying people can't be sexy in media gives the air of sexual shaming. But can agree that not enough scantily clad men in games we have to use character creation for that most the time.
Adding to the Mario argument. Arguably it is an even bigger male power fantasy. The idea being that Mario, a blue collar worker, and average guy. Has the power to save a powerful princess and the world. "EVEN YOU, the random everyday man, have th power and ability to overcome great ordeals and hold control over this supposed power figure, this technically world leader's (though only in name) safety!" This is probably not even the original intent of the game, and likely never has or will be. But the ways in which what's his face tries to draw attention to how being a princess means she has power and being a plumber means he's undesirable actively ignores how power fantasies actually work. They're meant to make those consuming media feel as though they are more capable of exerting their power over others, and what better way of doing this than making the protagonist the closest they can be to the ordinary people consuming the media?
I think your overall point is good and correct, but I do have a nit to pick. Near the middle of this video you say something about how science can't disprove what you know to be a basic fact about what the purpose of media is, and I've got to disagree with that. Lots of things that are or were 'common sense' have been disproven by science, because the universe is complicated, and often to gain a deeper understanding of it you have to reason in ways that are orthogonal to the way we instinctively use logic. There's a reason the scientific method had to be invented. The far more interesting point you make is that it doesn't matter whether cultivation theory is true or not because a work of art can be bad in and of itself regardless of its effect on people, and I'm glad most of the video was focused on this.
![Kodak Black - Versatile 4 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VcP_1Ua__vY/mqdefault.jpg)
Just some answers to a few questions I thought you might have.
*1) Are you saying that Mario games should be condemned in the same way we condemn nazi propaganda?*
No.
*2) Are you implying that people are bad when they consume and authentically enjoy politically problematic media?*
No.
*3)These RUclipsrs aren’t saying all things produced under capitalism are good, they’re saying that the market for video games is mostly men so it’s fine that games are the way they are. That’s a different argument, right?*
No it’s not. That’s the same argument. Everything sold under capitalism is sold to the people who buy it. That an audience buys a thing (or that a thing is sold to the people who buy it) does not mean that thing is harmless.
*4)You seem to be stepping into some Jack Thompson territory here. Are you implying that any game that romanticizes violence ought to condemned or some such nonsense?*
Well, no. While I do think it absolutely is fair to criticize the violence in certain games and to criticize the medium as a whole for its over-reliance on the treatment of violence as cool, good, or just, we have to acknowledge that violence is the mechanical lingua franca of games in general. As I advise in my video, we must always consider the way the violence depicted in a game interacts with a broader culture. For instance, a game wherein torturous violence is committed against, say, an arrested terrorist paints a very different picture from a game where violence is committed for some genuinely good cause or against a cartoon character. We have to be specific and attentive to these things.*
*5) You say you don’t like cultivation theory but never challenge Sargon or Thunderf00t’s obviously silly idea that for cultivation theory to be true, murder rates or whatever must literally increase. You’re aware this is silly right?*
Yes I am aware. The burden of proof these guys demand from cultivation theory is absurd, and they fail to recognize that 1) Games might have more covert negative effects on the people who play them than literally making them murder or 2) Games could just be causing violent crime to go up even as murder rates fall. That said, this was just an unnecessary thing to talk about haha.
*6) (the one i referred to in the video) You say in your video that the association between violence and sexuality is a problematic thing that Anita sees in culture. I’ll have you know that plenty of good people, women included, are aroused by images of violence against women. What’s your response?*
I fully recognize that there are all sorts of things that would be bad were they to occur in real life, or non-consensually, that are perfectly fine to fantasize about alone or with a partner. But this fact does not excuse all media from criticism. BDSM media can convey bad messages or good messages or fine messages in the same way all media can. And that violence occurs in a piece of art is not, on the face of it, enough to condemn it.
Again, we must look at the interaction between a work and the broader social structure before we can fully understand its subtext and meaning. For instance, does Double Dragon encourage us to look at women as objects or subjects in their sexuality? Does it pose violence against the female character as a fun prop or as a significant event? Is the violence against her meaningfully contextualized as erotic fantasy? Again, I haven’t played the game and these are obviously very complicated questions, questions that are contingent on the precise functioning (or lack of functioning, as these RUclipsrs might have it) of the patriarchy within modern culture.
*7) You said that claims about the harmfulness of art are not referring to the literal impact art has on society and then say the only way we can ascertain the messages of art is through that society. Isn't that a contradiction?*
No. To be honest I have no clue why I'm including this question. I just suspect one person might comment it and it'll puzzle me then as it puzzles me now. Those are two different things haha
Support the death of humanity
Do the right thing
Ignore the story which is something fundamental to make you want to play a game, and strip the same game of any other detail until it fits your preconceived world order of men dominating women and seeking power.
In this video you didn't do anything but repeat what Anita said in her videos, which is exactly what Sargon and other criticized, you made a video explaining Anita's point of view and why it makes sense, while everyone criticizing her already knows it and they themselves explain it and why it is wrong.
It's a trend to assume that others don't understand your point of view, is it because they don't agree with you?
Exanthippe you still don’t get it do you
why is the happy merchant collecting turnips
So what you're saying is that you support and defend Anita Sarkeesian?
what do you mean video games are not real life
:)
IMAGINE MY SHOCK WHEN I HEARD VIDEO GAMES (A NATIONAL PAST TIME) WEREN’T REAL.
I think he's speaking figuratively, bc obviously video games are life
The next crazy thing is if my boi shrek is not Real ha
Arrow, how dare you use the name of Rosa Luxemburg with that profile picture.
welcome back
Ur side rite
booo you suck
Hey it's Captain "There is no moderate or centrism, only extremes"
There are only political extremes, but yeah... gender is on a spectrum.
these replies
YIKES
Lady literally says "You can/should enjoy games even though it's important to be aware of problems in them" in every video.
Somehow gets twisted into "she wants to ban video games!"
The same way "we think there should be tighter restrictions on who can acquire firearms" gets twisted into "they're gonna take our guns!"
Ash Najimi Didn’t Beto o Rourke say he wants to take guns away? And aren’t they currently trying to do that in Virginia?
because it the same argument as to why they should be banned the this is harmful narrative
She takes millions of dollars to make shit up in low budget videos that come years late.
Y'all are a bunch of tribals.
@@alexdietz7362 Criticizing the quality of her videos for the budget is actually fine and valid.
I'm just talking about people labeling her "anti-video games."
Nothing tribal here. I don't even agree with a lot of her videos, but writing her off as wanting to take away games is reactionary and ridiculous.
Honestly the worst part about Amazing Atheist’s and Sargon’s videos is the part where they act like it’s a no brainer that video games are OBVIOUSLY made for men so OF COURSE they’re going to objectify women. Like...they never question why video games are sold specifically to men? They never wonder about why certain items are gendered under capitalism and why other items, like apples and cigarettes, are not? They never wonder why male centered culture perpetuates harmful stereotypes? Why do video games HAVE to be male? Why can’t male centered media promote respect and emotional strength, etc? Obviously not ALL video games are like this but it astounds me that they just never think to ask...why?
Things are "gendered" because there are purchasing patterns that appear, and so companies try to appeal to these trends. That's it. Unfortunately companies tend to follow the money.
@@aquilafasciata5781 sounds like you dont know the history of video games in america. You should look into the resurgence of gaming. The first wave of gaming in america was very much not gendered. It wasn't until the crash, then some quiet years, that nintendo began marketing to young boys (a coin flip decision).
@@user_.b Amelia Flores I, too, watch Ahoy. And because of that initial marketing push, the main demographic is now males, so that is who they market to.
First of, you can't objectify a npc, because a npc is already an object. But you can objectify a character controlled/played by person, which still happens to a lot of female gamers that play online. Second the reason apples and cigarettes are not gendered is because capitalism hasn't "yet" found a way to gender them. Capitalism even genders refresments like diet coke and cola zero. Third gaming isn't male centered, just a lot of genres are, but the reason some genres have less women isn't just because they are less intressed in these type of games. One reason is hardly ever enough for things being the way they are. Like what about those communities being very toxic towards women, that they have very few strong female characters or the fact that all women are sexy and wearing stripper clothes. Btw there isn't anything wrong with having a female character that is sexy and wears stripper clothes, just like how there is nothing wrong with having a black character that is a thug. It is a problem when all female characters are sexy and wears stripper clothes and all black characters are thugs. Otherwise great commet.
@@aquilafasciata5781 i wonder what would have happened if the market became female focus maybe we could avoid such a silly argument about videogames violence and objectification
ok i feel like a lot of people are missing the point of this video. it's not really about anita sarkeesian at all, it's about the ineffective and harmful ways in which people choose to engage with media criticism. you may be unconvinced by sarkeesian's commentary itself, but this video is just here to point out that some of the criticism of her is fundamentally flawed in an important way. watch the whole video and actually listen to what he's saying, it's important and interesting regardless of your opinion on sarkeesian herself.
i love u big joel
Genevieve Brusie how much criticism isnt actually flawed tho? i've literally never heard good criticism of her or anything that isnt anti feminist
@@agirlwithdreams15 true but if he focused on all that the video would be four days long lmao
Sorry, but this is the same woman who tried to bully boogie2988 in private after he shared a message or concern and love because it took away from her narrative. I'd say it's the turning point in Boogie stopping being such a pushover afraid of confrontation, because Anita forced him into the very situation he never wanted to be in and sent him into a panic attack. Not everything Anita does and stands for is bad, but Anita herself is a terrible person and she has scammed alot of people out of alot of money by taking advantage of the feminist people she claimed to represent.
I'm willing to listen and consider the arguments of feminism, there are good parts to them that have become subverted for self gain and social prestige in modern times, but Anita herself is, as she would put it, "a garbage person". I already separate her from the group. BUT, that doesn't stop her from being a part of the conversation and a symbol of everything that has gone wrong with the modern feminist movement. Stuff like her is the reason I had to step back from being a feminist, because I couldn't support the corruption of the platform into a tool to leverage for power, money, and prestige and escalates a culture war instead of spreading understanding and equality. The current feminism unfortunately wants to be "more equal", not just equal, and that's a betrayal of what feminism used to be.
It's a deeper problem than just media fetishization, this would be happening without the media empowering it. The Media has just strengthened it. It's also not just confined to feminism, it's all identity politics and tribalism.
@@Ralathar44 lmao you're still completely missing the point. NONE of that is relevant to the point being made. just watch the video dude
Also pretty disingenuous that Thunderfoot uses the ending of the remake to make his point while showing the gameplay of the original, as if that's been a norm the whole time.
Saw Kev logan talk about this prick once. Mentioning playstation games while showing halo 3 footage which is a xbox exclusive. Funny right? Dudes like this accuse her of not being a REAL gamer to be taken seriously... Some of these chuds need to look in the mirror.
Well then good that Derpkeesian was never disingenuous or stole video footage from other players. Oh... wait...
you have anime eyes
sparkling, you could see his soul in his eyes, dazzling...
I can't unsee it now
Well he is an objectively hot troubadour.
Perfect Tim Burton facial proportions
He looks like he has a constant IG filter haha. Did he use white eyeliner on his lower lid? it’s kinda adorable
I remember being 14 and unironically agreeing with the anti-sjw and anti-Anita arguments. Even back then I knew something wasn’t quite right about those guys, but I had no idea just how bad it was. I’m so glad I came to my senses
I'm glad I'm not the only person this happened to :)
You're not alone, my guy. Maturity has a way of making us more wise to nonsense and bad ideas.
I was one of those kids too, I always wondered how many “got out” when I was the only one of my friends who did. It’s nice to know others did too.
I don't see why it has to be one way or another. I heavily disagred with Anita, she wants too much of the game worlds to be perfect. Her arguments are often quite silly. But at the same time I don't agree with the anti sjw crowd that everything is perfect the way it is. There is nothing wrong about this guys as much as there is nothing wrong with Anita. There's just opinions and they don't have to be either way at least I think so.
I mean at least for me it seems like you're all still pretty impressionable just not by the same things
I'm not sure whether Sargon of Akkad and Thunderf00t will watch this video. You have to keep in mind that it is about 7 sargons long.
It was 7 thunderfeet ago. 🤣
@Scotty's Bottom Oooh, using homophobic slurs to OWN le stoopid sjdubyaa libtards, how cool and mature and edgy of you! 😎 You sure convinced me, a fellow libtard, with your awesome FACTS and LOGIC and definitely cool temper (unlikes those triggured sjews) in less than 0.5 sargons flat! 👌
@James
as long as we can keep it up
@@daniela.blasiniperez9026 lol did the commenter delete his comment or something?
@I'm Someone lol yeah, his comment was basically calling Max slurs and saying "Sargon does TOO have an attention span!" >:(
Can't wait for your critique on Lubenshluben 2: Electric Boogaloozen
I mean Lubenshluben was already in two parts, each the length of a full movie. The first part was pretty tame, really just a historical drama about WWI with some impressive cinematography for the time. It was the second part that was really offensive, where the newly formed Nazi party is glorified and the efforts at -reconstructionism- the Weimar Republic are portrayed as evil. The triumphant note at the end with the birth of a Nazi nation was particularly disgusting.
Sex work is absolutely fine. Depicting sex workers as disposable props who don't have value is not
These guys legitimately do not understand the difference between real people and 'me so horny' depictions of prostitutes.
how and when were they depicted as disposable?
@Salvatore Gravano Interesting that you're complaining about the work, and not the people paying for it.
@Salvatore Gravano But you were happy to offend your own mother?
Playing through Cyberpunk 2077 had me thinking about this. One of the primary factions in that game is what amounts to a sex worker's union, and it genuinely surprised me to see a mainstream, AAA title treat sex workers with that kind of respect and dignity.
These sexist themes are just so engrained into our culture that criticizing them in some video games makes people assume she wants all video games banned. Like its as if people cannot imagine a video game without those themes. Wowie
Exactly. Like on the other hand you have film critics talking about problematic misogyny in films, but even their biggest detractors don't presume that the critics are calling for a ban on all movies.
@@ToaNyroc yeah I'm not even a fan of her but I've seen some of her stuff and she just seems like someone who likes video games and just wants them to represent women in a better way, I never got the vibe that she wanted the medium of gaming to be scrapped.
@Rob Cameron No, there isn't, you dishonest coward. There is a footage of her saying she's not a "gamer" as in she doesn't consider gaming to be a big part of her identity. It's an old footage mind you, so it's perfectly possible that she changed her mind since then. In any case, the footage didn't prove she "knows nothing about them"
my god you are really that dumb
Themes based on your interpretation. This fundamentally comes down to interpretation, and I don't think your interpretation has any more credence than others interpretations that conflict with Sarkeesian.
“Bright red lipstick to impose arousal” is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever heard lmao
i literally gagged when i heard it . like, no dude its not all about you and your dick. how about looking awake and less dead , more healthy or young , how about expression or art, not everything women do is about your sexuality but i guess that's the way you see the world when you play games catered toward " male dominant audience"
@@maniakimon Less dead? You mean less aged, less fit for breeding. More healthy and young? You mean healthy young adult, since she's clearly not trying to look like a child. Healthy young adult females equate to fertility. Creative expression is also a big part of breeding fitness, even in the animal kingdom. Look at birds of paradise for obvious examples, with their fine plummage, dances and calls.
Yes, just about everything adult women do is about "your dick" and just about everything adult men do is about "your vagina". Perpetuating the species is too important to put on the back-burner, so it's baked into the core of everything we are.
@@MajandraFan evo-psych gang drools his way into the fight!
@@cool_sword Evolutionary psychology? Formal education, how adorable.
@@MajandraFan Stephen Jay Gould would like a word with you after class.
The bit about Mario and Princess Peach's social classes really got me because Mario being of a lower class than Peach *is* part of the male fantasy- the idea that the everyman can rise up to the challenge and be rewarded with a "princess", either literal or metaphorical, for his efforts in the end. Peach's status as a princess increases her appeal as a reward. How many heroes would set out to rescue the ugly milkmaid from two towns over? Not many.
Edit: before whinging at me please go to 8:40 in the video for context as to what I made my comment about, for fuck's sake.
Don't get me wrong I completely agree with you, but sometimes I feel like I'm not allowed to have my childhood anymore. I didn't really think about those kinds of things when I was a kid you know? I have all of these really happy and powerful memories attached to these things and then all the sudden The legend of Zelda is sexist and now I can't ever feel those emotions the same way as I did when I was a kid. I used to be a part of the anti-sjw crowd, but these days I've sort of woken up in a sense, I realize how stupid that was back then. but honestly if I could go back to being as ignorant as I was back then I think I would go back, at least everything was stable back then I had something that I understood back then there were things that made sense and things that didn't make sense. I may have woken up to how stupid and childish My world views were back then but honestly I just feel more helpless and miserable. I find that I can think for myself less and less as the days go on, I don't know what's right or wrong anymore, every argument makes sense, l AM toxicly- masculine, l am NOT toxicly-masculine. Are the things that make me who I am good and creative and wholesome? Or are they proof of how horrible society is and it's influence. I don't know anything anymore, and I don't belong anywhere anymore.
@@dannyeckerd9324I feel it's possible to like something while still being aware of its flaws.
Something can be overall 'good creative and wholesome' whilst still having a few problematic elements.
@@Tom-zo4hkI knew a feminist who said I was perpetuating toxic-masculinity as a bladesmith because I was making weapons after I offered to teach her, but then I asked another that I knew from work and she said she thought it was cool and creative. So who do I listen to?
At the end of the day I just want to be a good person, but nobody can give me a straight answer on how I should do that.
@@dannyeckerd9324 That does sound very cool and creative!
And I think it's very cool of you to offer to teach her!
Doing that seems like the opposite of toxic to me.
@@dannyeckerd9324 Despite what some people might say, it's alright to enjoy things even if you have criticisms of them, or even if other people criticize them in ways you agree with! I have loads of criticism for stuff I love a lot, like Zelda as you mentioned. There is no "unproblematic" media, because everyone's interpretations of it will be different- at some point, you just have to put your foot down and say "yes, I get what you mean, but I still like this." The thing is that in Anita's original videos as well, she's not telling people to stop enjoying these games! Nor are you obligated to constantly self-flagellate over the sexist tropes of a story unless you specifically wish to discuss those aspects. I know that that's the attitude the internet has taken (that something is either completely flawless or irredeemable trash) but that's just... not really feasible.
On top of that, misogyny and the patriarchy isn't the fault of any specific man, or even most men. It's not your job or your responsibility to feel bad about sexism or misogyny constantly because you're a man. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a radfem and not worth listening to. Ultimately, video games are supposed to be fun, and video games aren't going to overcome massive societal issues overnight, so no matter what anyone says, let these games make you happy.
Sorry if I'm a bit rambly but I hope you understand what I mean here.
"Bright red lipstick to imply arousal"
RUclips was a mistake
Me who likes wearing fire hydrant red all the time
👁👁
@@violetsparkles5453 👁👄👁
Fundamentally thunderfoot and co. had her argument backwards. It's not that male-centered narratives in video games cause sexism, it's that sexism causes male-centered narratives in video games. And, like with your hypothetical Nazi movie, this is worthy of critique whether it causes or simply reflects bad ideologies.
The thing that’s always weirded me out about her arguments is that doesn’t this sword cut both ways?
Doesn’t a huge, beastly muscled, heroic male video game protagonist contribute just as much to sexism?
And at the end of the day, isn’t it ok for video game developers to make the games they want? I don’t get what’s wrong with them making a game where the male hero saves the damsel in distress. Just as a heroine saving her captured male lover is perfectly legitimate.
So now all video games have to make sure they carefully appeal to her guidelines of what makes an acceptable female character?
So she's attacking the symptoms because she's another useless media critic.
@@Rokaize "Doesn’t a huge, beastly muscled, heroic male video game protagonist contribute just as much to sexism?"
You're making her point for her. That stereotype contributes to the broader message that women are unimportant objects to be saved by men, and men are strong heroes who deserve the viewers attention.
"Isn't it ok for video game developers to make the games they want?"
They can make what they want, doesn't mean they're free from criticism. Conservatives criticize media all the time for having "diversity" or whatever. In the same way, Anita criticizes media for sexism. Criticism isn't censorship.
@@WalkTuahthePolls my statement had nothing to do with criticism or censorship.
Even if there is criticism of it the developers shouldn’t even really care. Some randos on the internet complaining about a female character being sexualized isn’t even worth really responding to. And it definitely isn’t worth changing over. Because as you even stated, then the criticism will move on to some other aspect of how someone is portrayed in s game. If they change sexualized females then the big muscles protagonist will be criticized. Almost any decision they make will be criticized by that same crowd.
@@Rokaize Then why are you even here? If you think the criticism is pointless then why are you talking about it? Just ignore it.
Clearly you do care about this, and you understand on some level that feminist activists have had an influence on games. Personally, I think that influence has been good. It's lead to diverse casts with more unique characters. Fewer games are relying on the worn out 'damsel in distress' trope and come up with a creative story.
On the point about women being treated as sex workers i.e. objects, imagine a game with a female protagonist. All of the female characters serve to help her on her quest, give her information, and fight in battles with her. Meanwhile, all of the male characters offer to do pushups, cut down trees and build bookcases. Do you think the alt-right youtubers would defend that, saying doing pushups and building shelves is just another way to use your body?
Quite frankly I don’t think anyone would give a shit.
Ignoring your peculiar use of the word "alt-right" to refer to left wingers... that game sounds pretty rad.
I also think that hypothetical game sounds rad. Can all the guys be ripped asf like Bobby Lashley?
Also implications that the opposite is super common, rofl.
@@MrCmon113 I don't understand your point here. Alt-right RUclipsrs defend the way women are portrayed in many video games (as Joel discussed in the video) because selling your body is just another way to use your body. OP was turning that around and asking whether those same people would defend male video game characters acting in an equivalent way.
@@8bitdiedie That's very naive considering the outraged response to the Star Wars sequel trilogy's rather innocuous and tame feminism.
Has anyone explained to Sargon and Thunderf00t that their own videos are, in fact, media?
By their own beliefs, their videos have no persuasive power and therefore why should they bother?
Kimmerbelly Wow you argued with yourself. Good job stupid feminist lady. Way to be schizophrenic.
@@scottysbottom5769 ok dipshit
Scotty's Bottom man, if this is the best arguments anti-SJW can bring you better buy the neon hair coloring already. You’re fucked if you actually think she argued herself and not posed a logical question.
@@kaingates This video and literally every comment is a straw man attack, including this one.
@@darrenr49 Well there are 2 options. It's a blind attack on Anita where they didn't properly think through the video when they made it or they don't give a shit and just want to be anti-sjw. Obviously if you think it's a straw man then they didn't think through the video when they made it.
The funniest part about Thunderf00t's point about 'the girl delivering the last blow on te bad guy' IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING ANITTA POINTS OUT IN HER VIDEOS! LIKE, THAT EXACT SAME SCENE! DUDE! JUST WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE PERSON YOU ARE CRITICIZING INSTEAD OF SCREAMING ABOUT WOMEN PLAYING VIDYA GAMES
oh yeah, Shaun did a great video about that. All these guys are shitbags and lie, but Thunderfoot is really bad, cause he actually just edits out the bits where Anita talks about stuff he claims that she's "ignoring"
Kappie TheMMDer Says the idiot who thinks she didn't make up almost all of her harassment.
@@scottysbottom5769 oh wow, called them an "idiot' AND made a claim with no basis in fact. You Fucking destroyed us, dude
@@scottysbottom5769 dfosefsuhf wdym who hurted you dude are you okay
@@scottysbottom5769 Honestly, just go to ANY video about her and read the comments section. Then come back to me and say "I doubt she received harassment on any different degree than anyone else on the internet". Can't? It's because people froth at the mouth and spew the most nasty shit for no reason. Did she personally hurt you? No. Then critique her opinion and move on. But the 'critiques' of her call her the devil, a whore, etc. for....giving an opinion on a video game?
these guys: these game don't objectify women
also these guys: of course these games focus on the parts of the body men want! that's how the games sell!
And?
I wonder how you developed the idea i want someone to paraphrase an assertion already made.
Edit
To clarify a bit:
A fictional scenario does not miraculously transcend to a fact because it is convenient for propaganda purposes, an infantile expression of contempt or any other scheme currently fashionable.
It is possible to reconcile them, by fleshing out every character equally and thoroughly while stylizing all the characters so that they could sell.
Games that are targeted towards straight men are fine. The issue is the lack of games targeting other sexual preference.
@@krunkle5136 I'm surprised no one has tried it yet; there are very few competitors in a space with millions of potential customers, so why has no one bought in?
TLDR: Mario is a Working Class Hero
Indeed he is.
Mario: because blue colar workers have to keep upper class safe for a goddamn piece of cake.
Mario is a class traitor that stops Bowsers revolution plans and instead reinstates the Monarchy to restore status quo.
@@L0LWTF1337 Bowser is also a monarch. He is not called "Lord" for nothing.
That, but unironically. Thunderfoot was wrong in his argument; in that yes, Peach is a princess in name. But it would also be wrong to deny Mario's appeal to the masses as a charmingly stylized version of an everyman. He IS a "male power fantasy" but it's easier for everyone to empathize with him cuz he's a chubby plumber who looks average - it's just that his average features are cleverly stylized in a way that increases charm.
@@CteCrassus So was Lao Prince Souphanouvong (nicknamed the "Red Prince of Laos") and look at how that went. Bowser's domain is clearly a refuge for all the outcasts and "undesirables"
Wait... video games AREN'T REAL?
Next you're gonna tell me anime isn't real...
Green bill
anime was a mistake
What about if anime characters watch an anime. Is that at least real life (to them)?
@@pr0ntab Wait a minute... how do anime characters distinguish between watching anime on TV and live-action TV when they both are animated??? When they watch anime and then look at themselves in the mirror immediately after how can they continue to go on with the facade without realizing they are one and the same?
Calm down Undyne.
Hating Anita particularly always seemed like hating vanilla pudding - with a wide variety of tastes and textures out there folks are getting mad about something extremely bland and inoffensive. That's not to dismiss Sarkeesian, she's just very boring, straight to the point, monotone, and uninspired with her videos. I know that's deliberate because she didn't want to stoke any coals of rage - yet it happened anyways.
Whatever she said the hate towards her was clearly never for just what she said or how she said it. I mean, folks got mad at "Ms. Pacman's design is just Pacman with feminine characteristics added to it." It was always something that she represented - more than just women intruding in a traditionally men's space either. The hate towards her was a pushback of treating gaming (and other media for that matter) as anybody but disposable toys. The great hypocrisy of the gaming community is wanting games to be respected by outsiders but never to be critically examined.
"The great hypocrisy of the gaming community is wanting games to be respected by outsiders but never to be critically examined."
I wonder if other artforms had similar growing pains. Was there a dudebro backlash to critics of Taming of the Shrew?
It's not hypocrisy: once you start deeply examining something you can bet the fun is over, just look at what Watchmen did to the comics industry. Videogames should be fun (she doesn't care because she doesn't play games, but gamers obviously do).
@@LimeyLassen There was definitely some dude who was like "Battleship Potempkin is just a movie, gawd! Chill the hell out with this whole 'communist propaganda' thing."
IllCaesar I have a hunch that the reason she had such a flat monotone type of presentation style is because she was trying to avoid having her work get the “cringe compilation” treatment.
rvbrexer Of course, this is why no good films were produced after film criticism became a thing. There hasn’t been a good movie since the 1900s
Watching old GamerGate videos is so funny.
"Hey, this hobby is dominated by male voices and perspectives."
"Well that's because it's dominated by male voices and perspectives. Checkmate."
so glad i was too young to even know what gamergate was because my god that era just feels so miserable
The Mario example actually works against Thunderf00t's argument.
Even ALTHOUGH Peach is a princess and Mario is "just" a plumber, he is more potent and active while she is not a single bit. So even the politically most powerful woman is weaker than a lower class man.
Riot Grrrl because it’s a game about Mario
@@jbstarkiller4626 A _game_ that _someone made_ about a _guy_ named _Mario_ (literally the argument of the video we're discussing under).
John Ploopy princesses and women in general don’t exactly have a reputation of being that strong. Literally addressed point in the thing I made a comment about. It’s a trope because all throughout history women have been captured and needed to be saved by men or they die.
@@jbstarkiller4626 Analyzing and interpreting the historic precedence of the society in which these games were made to establish the purpose and meaning of games is the whole point, though. The idea isn't that the gender roles in games are uncommon nor that they don't reflect history; the feminist argument asks both why that is the case historically and if it is harmful to people, both women and men included. Perpetuating a bad idea because it was history is the same sentiment which allows current racism to flourish, for example. I can explain further if you would like.
JustThatOneGuy29 you would half to provide evidence that gender roles are a bad thing in the first place and the racism comparison is not comparable
I just wish Thunderfoot would upgrade his mic.
Seriously he’s been on RUclips for how long? And he still sounds like he’s talking through a bowl of macaroni and cheese
It's not gonna help much since he just sounds like a bowl of macaroni and cheese regardless.
Money Cat id rather watch a bowl of Mac and cheese sit on a counter for 5 min than TF
It suits him
oh lmao i thought that was just his voice
Upgrading his brain would also help.
If media had no effect on your views, the advertisement industry wouldn't exist.
the argument is the level of effect and what the effect is
@The Dolphin Police good joke
@Jesus Christ "Games don't really affect people at all, they just affect people in the following nuanced ways. They don't make them share the exact values shown in the games" he said in response to the comment that says "Games don't make people share the exact values shown in them, they affect them in nuanced ways"
@Jesus Christ did you just genuinely argue that video games give people adhd in the same breath as saying it doesn't affect people at all
@Jesus Christ Still waiting for you to explain how video games give people a neurological disorder.
Also princesses in real life never had agency, so 'princess privilege' wouldn't amount to much
Deadass. Princesses only very rarely had any political power. Their political use was as bartering bits for marriage. They were always the last in line to the throne, even if they were eldest children. Being a princess meant little in terms of personal political power.
@@theghostinthemirror8158 yes you where just way more powerful than 99% of the people
Tyler Basile in what sense? In the sense of creature comforts-yes. In the sense of having power over yourself? No. All women were property, peasants or otherwise.
If a man differed to you it was because he was differing on behalf of your (male) lord.
Princess had the privilege of creature comforts, they were no more autonomous than any other woman, though.
@@theghostinthemirror8158 she can still order others
Tyler Basile who? Other female servants? That’s a cheap victory for someone who has no ability to self-determine and is constantly at the beck and call of male authority figures.
Also, it's weird watching this in hindsight and seeing Thunderfoot, as a right-wing reactionary and self-identified "gamergater", speak positively and non-judgmentally about sex work. I have no idea what he's up to these days, but given the way the internet reactionary tide has shifted, I'd be surprised if he isn't espousing the idea that OnlyFans is responsible for the degeneration of western society.
Surprisingly it seems he's actually resisted it. At least as of January 2022, he seems to have gotten over it. I honestly can't believe it, but it's definitely reflected in his newer videos (and even his comment section). Doesn't rant about feminism anymore and the only time I see him bring it up is to say "Feminist Frequency has no power compared to the people in actual power." Looking back, I think Brexit officially caused him to break away from the "Skeptic" Anti-SJW community and his videos on it are brilliant. He even debated Sargon on it, and I love watching him realize over the course of it how stupid Sargon is. Now he's been focusing on the actual scammers and those with power, and actual science, and I really hope he continues this path. Unfortunately all his old awful videos are still on his channel and it sucks, but I've clicked "Not Interested" enough times that the RUclips algorithm has finally stopped recommending them to me. 😆 Fingers crossed.
My theory:
I think what set Thunderf00t apart from the rest of these guys was the fact that he was never a grifter, he was never an actual RUclipsr and he never made his living off making videos on culture war bullshit. He doesn't sit on his ass all day like Sargon, Thunderf00t is an actual scientist and astronomer that seems to spend all his time working in his field and traveling between science institutions in Europe, and just looking at the night sky. Made multiple scientific discoveries and I think that's why his videos are low quality and slapped together lol. I often wonder if he would have taken a different stance on feminism, had some perspective sooner, had he taken the time to actually think about it and research it. Also, if he had more women in his life, people challenging him on it in general. Pretty sure he's single and childless still, thank god. The knowledge that Sargon has a daughter, as does people like Stephan Molyneux, etc. makes their work even more repugnant and unacceptable to me. (As well as them being lazy grifters.)
Idk, as a feminist who followed Thunderf00t before Gamer Gate, I was very hurt by Thunderf00t's insane turn years ago, never got over it. I'm so glad I now get to enjoy his newer content and feel less bad about him being the one I always was most disappointed by. Feel vindicated that he was actually different and not a grifter. Watching him shit on Trump and Brexit honestly gives me life. I'm also happy that his RUclips comment section has been filled with comments focused on the topic and not just shitting on Feminism and whatever. Because there are good science videos he made years ago, that have no reference to feminism in them so I can easily rewatch them...however, I can't partake in my real favorite past time of scrolling through the comments, because every other one brings up feminism. Ie, "can't believe feminists haven't taken credit for this discovery yet lolol" and "where are the female scientists on your team, you sexist pig lol." Sarcastic shit like that.
Ok that's my rant. 😆 sorry.
Like, holy shit I hope Thunderf00t has actually changed and stopped talking about feminists for the right reasons. I hope at least he continues the trend, of course. (Honestly I think if it weren't for Gamer Gate and feminism crap, he would be a full blown lefty lol.)
Still, he broke my heart and started the chain of RUclipsrs disappointing me with sudden heel turns against feminist, years ago, as the Anti-SJW mania took them over one by one. Fortunately I'm a woman and already a solid feminist progressive leftist/whatever, so they didn't affect my politics.
the best way to avoid shit content is to avoid people making a platform or a living out of putting other people down, and instead focus on raising their own perspective @@sorryifoldcomment8596
Can anyone tell which thunderf00t video had the double dragon argument?
I need to know if he glossed over the ending of the first game, where the two brothers fight each other to see which one gets the girl.
I’m really curious, and I’m *not* going to go through all of his Anita Sarkesia videos to find the right one
It was his first video on her, Feminism vs Facts I.
And yes, he skips over the part where they fight over her.
@@kevinroth1049 pretty sure I saw that clip in other thunderfoot vids since he likes to recycle his content a lot.
@dallinsinger2636 That's an understatement. 2/3 of his video is recycled talking points, obligatory scientist flex, and callbacks
Who could forget "gamer gate" the controversy that launched a thousand commentator channels
I still think that both sides were wrong
With one side blaming every single gamer and other side making false acusations
And there also was the not your shield that few people comment about but it changes everything
"Mario is an Italian plumber"
When has he ever "plumbed" anything? What game? It's the most irrelevant defence of a fictional character I've heard in a while.
What exactly is that a defense against?
in the arcade game Mario Bros he fought some strange creatures in the sewer
@@8BitDarkNESsR3v14 Which is not plumbing.
@@OggyisCool Thunderf00t makes the argument that Mario has less power than Peach, because Mario is an Italian plumber while Peach is a princess.
This point is kinda bad, because those titles have almost nothing to do with the characters portrayals in the games. Mario is a plumber only in name. Big Joel explains this in this video, so idk how you missed it
may have plumbed Luigie's pipes a few times, idk :3
I can’t imagine being so much of wet blanket that I’d get mad at someone whose videos amount to feminism 101 criticism of video games
Is calling someone a « wet blanket » something you usually do? I feel like this should be an insult people use more often.
Édit: I’m stealing your wet blanket insult and using it all the time.
@@scottysbottom5769 oof, "cunt", thats a mean word. Why would either of the things youve said matter?
@@scottysbottom5769 Yeah I agree this video and its SJW virtue signalling are so updog
I agree. I couldn’t understand what the point of being so mad at someone using games to teach feminism. What was the big deal??
Scotty's Bottom they made a video game about punching her face, dude. When you went to her page people said kill your self. It was very prevalent. And why would someone telling the media about that warrant hatred from you? Unless you’re one of her harassers.
Best quotes:
“He’s just a boy, an innocent boy, minding his own business, hunting for turnips.”
“Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year, but apples, they don’t do nearly that much damage. In fact, it’s said that they keep the doctors away.”
Thankfully, Hbomberguy made it impossible for me to take these guys seriously, but... jesus, that clip of Thunderfzerozerot talking so explicitly sexually about Anita's makeup will never not skeeve me out.
Her make up warrants critical analysis.
@@NotSure109 You upvoting your own lone troll comment under a 2 year old comment warrants critical analysis.
@@dingdongism That didn't occur. Watch, I'll upvote it now to 2. Incredibly unlikely that someone else would come along in the last 5 minutes to upvote me JUST as you made this comment.
@@NotSure109 I agree that scenario is unlikely. While it’s also not unlikely that you have 2 RUclips accounts and used your alt to upvote your main account’s argument-I have an alt, lots of people do-I don’t think it’s fair to assume that’s what you did. Ok, someone else upvoted your troll comment. I was wrong.
@@jaade9485 You found the troll funny and _I’m_ the one that’s pathetic? Agree to disagree.
"appearance-enhancing cosmetics"
I'm sorry ThunderfZEROZEROt, you just failed the Turing test.
well, you should see the whole context.
I think that is a perfectly fine way to academically describe makeup. He makes a good point. It doesn't necessarily negate her arguments but it certainly complicates them. I'm not sure why we get so worked up when we hear conservatives talk about the sexual enhancement of makeup as if it is somehow a ridiculous notion.
@@Bradley_Lute brad Lute bc it's not always used for sexual reasons so it's irrelevant to bring up at all. That's like saying a guy that works out (has a muscular body) and wears well tailored clothes (that happen to look nice, and make him look nice) makes him always trying to lure people and is 24/7 wanting to be objectified. Its wrong to bring up bc within the context of the video, its not a good point at all. It *is* a ridiculous point. "You dont like the negative portrayal and inherent overarching objectification and patronizing view of women in games? Well, you wear makeup so you're a hypocrite." That's an awful point and unbelievable that someone would say that its a "good point".
@@whatif3271you are absolutely right. While i argue that makeup is always sexual signalling (i'm using a different definition of sexual in this case, the scientific definition - sexual fitness signaling would be better), using it as a argument against Anita doesn't quite work here. Thanks for pointing that out. Not a Thunderfoot fan at all. More i'm concerned with making arguments against left foolery on issues of gender. There is a bit of hypocrisy there about fulfilling gender stereotypes but he is talking about makeup and she is talking about assault. My arguments against her are more along the lines of art as a form of expression and that we don't see art as reality. My other objection would be a general emphasis of feminism on male consumed culture when women consumed culture is quite bad too then cherry picked. And patriarchy is fed by both.
@@whatif3271The things you're talking about ARE always used to make yourself look attractive. What exactly is the problem?
Why does Joel have kawaii anime eyes?
I am actually astonished that when he blinks, or talks about something that he loves, his anime eyes don't sparkle ... Imho they should. LMAO
"I am from gamergate and I care about facts and evidence and reason" might be the cringiest sentiment ever spoken aloud
Especially since all their videos are appeals to emotion
Appeals to emotion redressed as "common sense". If you just call your intuitive value-judgement or extremely base level analysis of something the "common sense" perspective, that automatically lends it an air of authenticity, especially if you throw in some vaguely related statistics. Than you can feel like the rational, pragmatic empiricist without having to use any brainpower. And from that perspective it's easier to frame the other side as ideologues relying on dubious academic theorizing detached from reality.
@@yukansk7834 This is a very well-written summation of these youtubers perspectives. Well maybe not only to youtubers, this also applies to the way of thinking for most of my conservative relatives that haven't researched the topics they off-handedly dismiss.
@@zz8az It's the same with my reactionary relatives. It's so frustrating to try and break through that self-image in discussions. I think this deeply ironic confusion of intuition born out of ideological bias with rationality and empiricism is the lifeblood of all these kinds of modern right-wing populism. It's exactly the same here in Germany. You have to deal with trumpism, we have to deal with the AfD...
Nope. Plain statement of fact, on the right side of decency.
I love that these 'Gamer' bros point out that the main audience for video games are typically men, and don't go, gee, I wonder if that has to do with an aggressive media campaign to market to boys, and stories that explicitly caters to male power fantasies and decades of online gaming that harasses women every time they join a lobby. Like, they prove her point.
"I love" that Xenos actually believe the allegations they pull out their ass somehow miraculously transcend to facts. Like, they prove no point.
:p
@@legalize.brokkoli pull what allegations out of their ass? The harassment was EVERYWHERE, there were channels that talked about nothing else for the longest time and people to this day justify that they deserve harassment and death threats because they dared enter an online space.
games tend to appeal more to men because more men seem to play AAA titles more than women, it's supply and demand, it's just gotta be profitable, simple as that
that being said, there's still a lot of games appealing to women and including female power fantasies, it's really common
Yes, her points are absolutely correct. What she is wrong about is that those things are bad.
Pretty ignorant comment.
So, I am subscribed to the Feminist Frequency channel so I have sen quite a few of Ms Sarkeesian's videos. I don't agree with every thing that she (and the rest of the hosts) say, but I enjoy the different lens through which to view video games. As video games are literally my favorite thing in the world (sorry family) hearing them talked about in different ways is super awesome. Like, "hmm, I never thought about it like that..." and stuff like that.
Agreed. And it's not like they are calling for the end times of gaming or anything. The hate they get is unwarranted...
Hello, I am curious and wanted to ask you a question. How often do you watch videos of Feminist Frequency? They have over 200k subscribers but their videos only seem to attract a few thousand views each.
i dont think its nice to look through a different lens. gaming already has thousand of genres and thousands of different games and people who make them. we already have so many different lenses and if you want to look through a specific lens just say the word. i cant stand anita sarkeesian because she is trying to devalue video games and everyone who makes them just because they go against her beliefs
@@HeadRedShot This doesn't quite make sense to me. We're talking about lenses in terms of criticism, different genres existing is just not related. I'd also argue that she doesn't de-value games, rather, by critiquing them she's actually asserting that they are valuable. Growing up, most of games writing were just reviews, "should you buy this?". That's because at the time they were viewed by the mainstream as frivolous entertainment made for little boys, so they were just products rather than 'art' like film and literature. That's been slowly changing over the past 2 decades as games, as a medium, and gamers have continued to develop; now we have all kinds of people online talking about games as meaningful pieces of culture.
And what Sarkeesian is doing is just a continuation of this trend. She's analyzing games with feminist theory the same way academics do with other forms of art. It's fine if you disagree with her opinions, but she's not advocating for games to go away or trying to devalue them, it's the opposite; she wants us to think about games more and consider them valuable and impactful. She even looks at older, simpler games that were explicitly made to entertain children, like Super Mario Bros., and says "Hey, this isn't just frivolous entertainment, this has had an impact on us and our culture and it is worth examining."
Again, you don't need to agree with her or like her presentation, but I hope you can see why I think people like her represent necessary growth for the medium.
@@HadBabits i can get that, but the lens anita islooking through doesnt really exist. in legend of zelda link saves zelda and kills the evil man. thats all the game is about and its impossible to say its sexist, but yet anita says its objectively sexist because prince saves princess and thats just bullshit. its like shes saying zelda is just an object in a story, but in reality in all games she is working her ass off. what i have noticed with anita is that she doesnt know everything about a game before she critiques it, and thats just dumb
I don't know why the idea of critiquing media we're a fan of is such a terrible idea to some, we can still enjoy it but it's important to learn and grow from things and understand what they say about us
Anti-intellectualism is a very real (and increasingly popular) phenomenon. You ever hear the cliched, Brooklyn-accented line, "What, you think you're better than me?" It's that, plus some deep stupid, plus some dumb feelings of being personally attacked by criticism.
Capitalism encourages people to invest their personal identities into the products they buy. To form strong emotional connections. Therefore, criticism of an object can (and often is) interpreted as criticism of the people who enjoy it. And if that criticism is valid... well, that makes it wound all the more.
I'll tell you why it's a terrible idea: When you do it completely dishonestly. Which she does. She goes out of her way to edit things to make roundabout point with no basis in fact. She's a borderline conwoman.
'Anti-intellectualism is a very real (and increasingly popular) phenomenon' - the problem is Anita is leading the charge in this department. She's riding a narrative for fame and profit and everything she says can be dismantled by a 5th grader.
@@BlazingOwnager I don't actually think that's true, from what I've seen
it makes it impossible to enjoy the media for many people.
Ok, so I was raised conservative, and when I left the religion I was raised in, I watched a lot of youtube atheist content, including Sargon of Akkad and Thunderfoot. I became very anti-SJW while watching their content (I was like 13-16 at this time) but I stopped watching their videos, and in the past few years my political views have been moving further and further left, thus leading me to watching this video, and after years of not hearing their voices or seeing their videos, I just have one question.... Were they always this annoying? Like content aside, just the way Thunderfoot talks is really annoying to me, and it's just like "did I really use to enjoy this content? Why?"
Lol annoying is a monumental understatement for that thunder foot person
The areligious community is not all terrible like this, but it does give me a reminder that there are always assholes despite the banner. There are a lot of good religious groups around and if they fit you, go for it. There are also some (I'm gonna create a term here) Peri-religious groups, looking at you UUs, that can be your thing. There also are some individual ways to go, or fully out altogether. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, do you.
I'm an atheist, (I think I legally have to say that? It was with the agreement with the vegans, I think?) but good people tend to have good beliefs which leads to healthier belief systems, and there are many ways to do that.
You're the one who became annoying. You're a radical and need mental help, or at least prison.
Funny, isn't it? I remember loving watching Thunderf00t 'dunk' on Creationists when I was going through That Phase myself. He lost me as soon as he shifted his attention to feminism in general and Anita in particular, but I still remember looking back as his Creationism videos and thinking "Damn, was he always sound like this from the other side?" Even now, while I'm still an atheist, my Hot Take is that you can be an atheist and also not be a d**k about it.
Feminists: This video game portrays women like objects and I find that concept degrading.
Salty gamer bois: No, you don’t understand, it’s okay for women to be portrayed as objects, because that’s what men like!
.-.
ok why is it ok for men to be portrayed like objects?
everyone is a "object" in video game
@Chandler Burse yes but you control them
so there the objectified
I would like to know what these games are that portray women as nothing more than objects. And if they're anything like she claims in Bioshock: Infinite, you've already lost the argument.
Right??? 😂😂😂😂😂 that last argument was so dumb I literally laughed
Most people don't understand that if you criticize something they enjoy, that doesn't mean you want to forbid it from existing, censor it, think that the people who enjoy it are pieces of shit and want to destroy their lives. People take things way too personally and have a very difficult time distinguishing what they like from who they are which I find to be of grave concern. And Ironically it's always the 'free speech lovers' that get their panties in a twist a soon as somebody uses their free speech to be critical.
And I say this as someone who's not much of an Anita Sarkeesian fan.
"f you criticize something they enjoy, that doesn't mean you want to forbid it from existing, censor it, think that the people who enjoy it are pieces of shit and want to destroy their lives" yes it does. Stop lying.
Robot killer You have an actual argument that it does? Proof there’s a lie being told?
@@robokill387 So does this come from the precedent set by the case of evidence V. "Nuh-uh"
@@sourgreendolly7685 In fairness I think he just forgot to add : 'when you have the intellectual capacity of a 13 yo'
Its more just annoying when someone over analyses say Mario, and then attempts to fit it into this grand feminist narrative. And then I think its the threat of bringing Pc culture into gaming and stifling edgy content is what pissed people off.
Every time guys make these sort of clueless defenses of sexism I’m reminded of the time I watched Shrek 2 with my brother and he said “He should have kissed her! Fiona is way better looking as a human!” and I responded “Yeah, so is Shrek” and he gave me this completely dumbfounded look like he hadn’t even considered the female perspective. He was so used to everything catering to the male perspective that he just assumed I thought the same as him, that even as a straight woman my focus would be on Fiona’s attractiveness too. That’s what these guys sound like when they’re acting like there’s no problem and mindlessly repeating stuff they’ve heard like “s*x work isn’t bad so this character isn’t bad” without understanding the lager picture. What they rally mean is “I don’t want it to be bad so it can’t be and here are some quotes I’ve heard taken out of context to prove that”
Imagine women like attractive men
Try to say Henry Cavill is ugly
who is defending sexism?
the ogres are hotter than the humans change my mind
@@trip9845 It’s probably safe to assume they were referring to the subjects of this video-Phil Mason (thunderf00t) and his contemporaries and hangers on.
More generally, Jordan Peterson would probably be the most well-known, non-gamergate defender of gender hierarchies. His supporters would argue that his arguments aren’t “defending sexism” but they certainly defend the conditions where sexism thrives. He’s influenced a lot of similar talking heads among the internet “skeptic” and atheist groups, the subjects of this video included, who tend to blather on about “SJWs” and contort themselves to find some modicum of objective evidence that justifies traditional power structures.
@@ashtimbog As long as an ogre has the cognitive wherewithal to provide affirmative consent, I say go get ‘em player. Presumably, they have the capacity to tear the limbs from your torso if you try anything they’re not down with, but just like with humans, it’s better to ask first and respect their boundaries.
On a somewhat related note, remember to practice safe ogre sex-use a condom and, to further ensure you won’t be gored and quartered while in the throes of mythical animal passion, be sure to agree on a good safe word (I recommend “loobin-schloobin”).
"He's just an innocent boy! Hunting for turnips!"
as a turnip that part was so offensive
His facial expression when juxtaposed with the turnips was priceless.
The makeup... wtf was that
"Don't sexualize women, look at how it's so prevalent in this industry and how that's bad"
"You wear makeup to make yourself sexy"
Whattt
What do you think makeup is for? Why do you think human women put certain colors on their face, when it's not Halloween? Do you think it's just coincidence that the most popular styles of makeup mimic the appearance of women who are at peak fertility?
Conversely, do you think that men spend lots of money on dates with women because they are just naturally generous? Or is it perhaps showing off the status symbol of being able to pay that much?
Sweet Jesus, it amazes me that human beings think that millions of years of mammalian courtship instincts all magically turned off when we came along, and none of it ever affects our behavior ever.
bruh chill women just wear it cause its pretty and looks good but the intent isnt all about men, “looking peak fertile” 😬??? it’s just an art form and for fun
@@j1430 Nah. One thing I've learned that I've found to be universally true: If there's something humans do that is incredibly popular, but seems frivolous, there's a reason for it we aren't seeing. If makeup was just art, we'd see more women going around like they came out of a carnival face painting tent. Butterflies and rainbows and skulls and swirls. Actual designs. Instead, we see the same behavior everywhere: pale skin, rosy cheeks, and red, red lips.
It's horrifying to think that the barbaric amorality of nature has so much grip over us that it's making our decisions without us knowing why. I get that. But understanding that process is the best first step to rebelling and making our own, conscious, choices. As a transhumanist, I'm all about that. We're not going to become more than we are until we understand how we got here.
@@AlexReynard Women wear makeup to look pretty, to _feel_ pretty, or (shockingly!) just to have fun with it. What is your point? When I wear a nice dress and a hat that I feel cute in, I'm also doing it to look & feel good about my appearance. Where is the crime? _And why do women specifically need to be called out for it?_
It's funny, that first video by Thunderbunny was actually the point I became interested feminist theory. Before that I was actually pretty convinced by the hole sceptic community, but his argument was so strained and had so many holes that 15 year old me thought maybe 'I should give this hole femonism thwng a go'
gianni pischella what makes you think so?
@gianni pischella good one, but that material is growing stale
@gianni pischella Feminism is not marxism btw...just so you know....but there are feminist Marxists out there.
I also at that age thought in typos.
@gianni pischella So just as a small point of interest the "Oppressor vs oppressed" rhetoric is probably more influenced by Hegel's 'master and slave dialectic' than Marx's 'class dialectic', but kudos for getting that, most people don't see the continuum at all.
I hadn't heard of the Norwegian equality paradox before so I will look more into it, but what I could find from a quick google search isn't actually inconsistent with feminist theory. Naomi Wolf's ' the beauty myth'/ Judith Butler's 'Gender Trouble'/ and Hert Marcuse's 'One - Dimensional Man' all make arguments based on humans instinct to learn social behaviours, such as speech or morality but in this case, gender roles. This is why most feminist theorists make the distinction between sex as biology and gender as social conditioning.
Mary Jan Kehily's and Joan Swann's 'Children's Cultural World' (btw a phycology textbook with no obvert feminist leaning) argues that most people bais understanding of society and language is internalised onto the subconscious by age 6 - 8, and after this, the child will look for patterns to reinforce the behaviour. It's like how people assume an Alfa/ Beta dichotomy onto nature because we grow up with hierarchies as an assumed norm, hearing that it has a place in nature it makes sense, even though not only is there no certified scientific evidence supporting any Alfa/ Beta dichotomy occurring in biology, there is also a plethora of research and evidence (e.g. Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce's 'Wild Justice' ) proving the opposite.
This is to say that unlearning gender after age 8 is extremely difficult, and so you would expect women to act submissively without external pressure to do so. This is actually kind of the point feminist frequency was trying to make, that regardless of legal equality if media continued to teach gender as it does then there could never be true equality among the sexes. (Note: as far as aware the first this idea of media influencing internalised behaviour was Edward Bernay's, a capitalist, so that's kind of funny I guess.) So a genderless society would require an entire generation to grow up not just with legal equality but also without gendered social learning.
But as I said I'll look into the Norwegian equality paradox in more detail, I'm sure it will be enlightening.
Agree or disagree with Sarkeesian she brings up issues that should have discussion...and nothing said should have encouraged the vitriol she encountered.
yes, she should not be harassed. but when she is criticized, she should not be able to use the "it's all harassment" shield to block out criticism.
You're free to voice your arguments but you will have to accept that so will I. Calling a counter argument "harassment" and blocking conversation when you run out of arguments is no way to engage in a sensible argument.
@@0x777 That's the irony of her existence now and with her bad takes as of late she lost a lot of creditability. Everybody know she posts bad takes to piss people off, people now know to kinda ignore her.
"It's not like you use red lipstick to imply arousal"
Thunderfoot, who hurt you?
Red lips are a psychological signal to men about a woman's sexuality, wearing red lipstick has the effect of arousing men, it doesn't matter if you know it or now that's what it does. A simple google search will tell you the truth "is make-up sexual display?"
He is desperarely thirsty for that "mid-rift"
@@pseudoriginal3839 😂
**Jordan Peperson has entered the chat**
@@nollhypotes it-s true
Love the assertion that "Games are like this because they're _made_ for _men_ !!!" Like yeah, that's literally her point; they're made only to appeal to men and they use harmful tropes to achieve that and that's a problem. It's not even that she's advocating any repercussions, she's literally just pointing it out because games have historically also been made _by_ men and therefore have a bias that they don't even realize; it's just about awareness and reflection.
Satire?
@@legalize.brokkoli Wdym?
It's good to make things for men. It's good for men to make things. What needs reflection is the beauty of men, and the harm toxic feminity does to men, and the reparations required from women because of toxic feminity.
@@NotSure109 you're a funny little guy
@@dent333 We get it, you're a bigot. Eat shit out of our presence.
I used to be a big fan of Thunderfoot (kinda still like him), Armored Skeptic and Shoeonhead, I fully bought into the anti-feminist thing and thought SJWs going overboard with feminism is going to lead to some sort of 1984-style thought police and anti-free-speech totalitarianism. Fortunately with Trump bringing out the worst in people and Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign pulling me to the left on most issues I started to realize how overblown the fearmongering about third-wave feminist is and how necessary intersectional activism still is. I also give Shaun, Hbomberguy and Three Arrows credit for offering a different point of view. To this day I still have a hard time to "like" Anita, but I've come a long way and I'm thankful for that.
I fell into that mindset too for a bit. Luckily the more "left and liberal" side of youtube reminded me I have a brain and should use it lol
same lol
I think there needs to be a move from anti- feminism to responsible critiques of feminism. There is a lot wrong with the viewpoint, such as a constant denial of human nature as natural. But there is also a lot right with it. I now consider myself an egalitarian, as I think there is room for all ideas and not enough emphasis on male issues in feminism. I live as an egalitarian but accept the patriarchy as a model that is fulfilling to many people's lives. We shouldn't try to smash the patriarchy as much as limit its effect on those who don't want to live that model. So equal opportunity for all.
I was in the same place, It's hard to admit you were wrong about something. But even still after I've improved my understanding of feminism I still cant see Anita's content as being anything other than very poorly made and misleading arguments for her points.
Anita literally scammed people on Kickstarter, I find it appalling that people would support this greedy asshole.
my headcanon is that joel is in a panic room to hide from the backlash and that's why the bg is orange/red
My headcanon was correct. Also, less than 4 weeks ago? It feels like this was months ago wtf
What are you even talking about
All the contrapoints fans in these comments. I am *LIVING.*
yaaaaas love contra 🧡 aestheic queen
@shazam awww poor bb feeling left out??? :(
*sips martini while watching TAA* Wow...that was some incredible free speech right there.
*swivels chair* And Joel, how do you respond to the idea that you're offended by everything and that you should get some Real Life Experience like TAA definitely has before expressing your opinion?
@gianni pischella Triggered much?
@gianni pischella Look at you, pathetic transphobic troll. Go cry in your neo-reactionary rightist echo chamber, _snowflake_
I guess that's the deal with art and media - statements aren't made in a vacuum. They're made by people who have certain ideas and messages, to be consumed by people who are ready to absorb those ideas and messages, and by people who already hold these ideas and messages as true or appealing.
I'm sick of being told I should ignore the ideas and messages that I spot in media, as if my own mind is over reacting, and that I should just accept media as a blank, context-less slate.
This video helped untangle some knots in my mind, so thank you for making it.
this is exactly what a fine arts education teaches you (at least that's my conclusion)
Than simply view the media that speaks to you and don't worry about the media that others consume. I think we want to impose on others and that becomes an arms race between liberals and conservatives. There is plenty of media made by and for liberals I don't think the market is flooded worth "harmful" conservative ideas. And I say this as a liberal myself.
The industrial amount of gaslighting encountered when interacting whith that kind of people Is just disgusting. And even harmful when they influence youg minds, they teach to haté and to dismis the others even when confronted with solid evidence.
@brad Lite
Or one could criticize messages they see as being bad to the public.
Ideas often do translate into action thus should be examined, deciphered and evaluated.
”Birth of a nation” was dangerous beyond humouring a lot of conservative white people.
It galvanized white-people to the Klan who in turn terrorized much of society.
Media is largely not just some mindless filler that has no impact on the rest of society.
It does have impact in how people view the world.
Promoting racist, or sexist, or homophobic ideas should be criticized whether it's someone just screaming it on the street or in a movie or videogame.
@@servoaugusta513not sure you can compare both of a nation to videogames but fair point.
scared to look at the comments
wish me luck
It's dangerous to go alone. Take this. 🥞
You're too early. Wait 24-48 hours for the real dumb-dumbs to find this video. That's when the real gems will emerge. Remember to CTRL+F the letter combinations "fem," "soy," "cuc," and "sjw" so you don't miss anything.
@@Netherfly exactly, they're not too bad now, but that will change
Godspeed
Wow oh no somebody said the mean thing and had a different perspective than me
Arguing that Mario isn't a male power fantasy because it's about a working class blue collar dude who proves himself to and wins the affections of a princess by defeating a bunch of bad guys is... an interesting take. I'll give Thunderfoot that.
Then remember Mario make more sense when he was in his King Kong parody in Donkey Kong since the women Pauline is more representative of "Damsel in Distress" because it is a whole ass parody. Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom is on a damn wild goose chase and some kids honestly never saw the end of the game UNTIL YT came to be.
You have really been making me think Big Joel. I’ve only been watching for two days and you’re making rethink a lot of stuff in my life. This s good stuff.
Mario is about the upper class only being able to survive on the backs of the working class. Bowser is economic recession and Peach refuses to take steps to protect herself, knowing that Mario (the working class) will come and bail her out.
In 3D Land she tries to run away though, and is able to somewhat succeed, even if she's ultimately recaptured.
@Chandler Burse The older generations will always reach a point where they rely on younger generations
"I'm a serious gamer. I don't play games." -thunderfoot
@@scottysbottom5769 Citation needed.
@@artemisentreri-isaacs3059 time where Sarkeesian said that such material showing depictions of (____a____) in(____b____) reinforces (_____c____)
Women as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 28 minutes and 25 seconds
Women as Reward - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 29 minutes and 20 seconds
her glc video
Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games 18 minutes 15 seconds
yes she backpedals hard not even 5 seconds later she goes back at it
Lingerie is not Armor Tropes vs Women in Video Games 15 minutes 48 seconds
this video (the video game The Video Games Cause Violence Argument)
so yes it her entire premises
Tyler Basile
Here, she's talking about this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivation_theory
@@wschippr1 ruclips.net/video/fKMQ3pw9Yvs/видео.html
*I'm a serious gamer. I don't play games. We exist.*
"bright red lipstick to imply arousal" made me barf
The way he said that so casually 💀💀💀💀 🏃💨
That is what red lipstick and make up generally is for, to give the face a flushed look
@@justinlevy274 That doesn't equate to the purpose of it being to imply arousal...Wearing blush does not mean you want to express arousal to everyone around you 24/7, obviously. We just find it attractive, so it looks good, it doesn't matter that the reason we find it attractive is because of sex. When someone wears blush they do that for themselves because they want to look good, They're not doing it to make other people around them horny.
@@bruh666 You can't so easily separate attractiveness and looking good with sexuality. Wearing make up to look more attractive equates with increasing the arousal level of those around you. I was simply filling in information about the mechanism. The mechanism is relevant to the point the youtuber was making, also nothing for you to barf over. Make up is more commonly worn in social contexts. It is on a part of the body that interacts most frequently with others. It is not worn by a woman for herself. Perhaps that's what she says to herself consciously but subconsciously that is what's happening.
@@justinlevy274 Have you never heard of asexuality? Asexual women still wear make up.. Because it looks good. Do you not understand that there is such a thing as a concept of beauty outside of sex? We see beauty in art, in colors we like, in shiny rocks. Obviously we also see beauty in make up in the same way. Make up is not always about looking attractive to someone else; it's often just to look good, the way a pretty painting can look good. Not necessarily sexual. And it is this weird insistence that something a woman does would be sexual or to arouse others, even though women themselves saying this is not true, that makes me want to barf. It's literally just sexualization and you don't just see it when people talk about make up, also in clothing and so much more. I don't understand why you would insist that they're doing it for "arsousal", even though women themselves deny it..
I feel dirty, red lipstick apparently implies arousal.
I just thought it looked badass.
I didn't realize it would cause people to have hard-ons when I wear it walking down the street.
I feel so dirty.
He's saying that he's a creep is what he's saying lol. He's also implying that all of us men are just sexual monsters who can't control our dicks. As if whenever we see something that's attractive to us it always means that we enter sex mode. NOT TRUE. Time and a place for that.
Well maybe it's true with a creep like Thunderfool...
Imagine being attractive to other people. The horror.
@@MrCmon113 okay first off you don't know how old this person is. if this person is underage, then yeah, it is horrifying that people (adults) would be sexually aroused by them, that's disgusting.
second of all, shut up.
red lipstick got popular in the 1920s in the us to make women feel sexy and have confidence and men hated it so don't worry
@@MrCmon113 theres a difference between arousal and being found attractive. Dont mind me when the idea that every mans dick got hard everytime i just put on some lipstick makes me uncomfortable and frankly, disgusted. And thats ridiculous like the first commenter said. And it doesnt matter what age i am for that matter
Jesus, thunderfoots arguments are so bad, they are like a "best of cringe" compliation.
yeah i didn't know that he was like this and it's pretty disappointing from a guy who had reasonably good opinions.
Hey, the game can be improved on cus it doesn't show women as people
"But women aren't being killed by that game! FACTS"
Yeah... but you can still improve the game. that's what a critique does
So women should be unable to be killed? I might be missing the point
@@hitlerjusthitlerliterallyh2700 you definitely are. He's referring to argument that because a game isn't actually persuading people to kill women irl, the misogyny in them is okay
@@Somebodyelse141 how is it misogyny if the game never forces you to kill random woman because guess what? Men can be killed in the exact same ways plus she goes out of her way to kill the people that the game actually suggests are bad targets and then goes MUH MISOGYNY plus she is an absolute garbage human in real life
Same goes for men. But hey they dont matter do they
@@hitlerjusthitlerliterallyh2700 ooohh I see why the original commentor didn't respond. You just refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit your preconceived meaning of the comment.
The comment was not talking about whether or not you can murder females in a game. We're not talking about a specific game, so it's pointless to argue about whether an imaginary game is actually misogynistic or not. For the sake of the example it is. If you insist that this imaginary game cannot actually be sexist-- thereby implying that games are never sexist-- go ahead. But it's dumb.
And the original comment nor mine were talking about Anita. Why are you bringing up irrelevant things?
Oh god. I read the comments.
I, too, like to live dangerously.
I too read the comments and found them filled with fake controversy.
@Daniel Skäremo Holmberg Did you learn something from them or just dismissed them?
@@nolessI try not to dismiss things/people out of hand, but I certainly didn't learn anything new from them. They were pretty much what I expected. =/
On this video or on the ones Joel responded to? Or on Anita's videos that Thunderf00t and Sargon responded to?
I only became aware of her because of Thunderfoot when I thought he was a reasonable man, which is why I hated her for a number of years. I since started watching her videos, and she genuinely made some great points and had me aware of the problematic tropes that I just brushed over in the past even though I don't agree with her quite often. On a hindsight, it felt so easy and comfortable to let someone else form my opinion even though it was quite obviously the antithesis of being an independent thinker as I wish myself as.
A lot of us went through a phase like that. It's easy to start to believe some youtube talking head who PWNS literally the dumbest arguments on the internet, namely those of creationists and flat earthers, is a Really Smart Guy whose opinions are always on point. You live and you learn.🤷
The spooky thing is how much of these vids were cynically motivated by ad revenue.
tbh both are kind of wrong. neither of them really understand the impact gameplay has on the preception of a character.
what pissed me off about Anita was her lackluster research and analysis.from what I see, she looks at vg's as movies with multiple endings, which is insufficient.
kenonerboy why is that insufficient?
@@kenonerboy I agree and disagree. She does interpret games from mechanical angle at times. My problem with Anita's analyses is that she sometimes holds the pretense of tearing something apart with feminist reading instead of genuinely finding a piece of text conveying a mysogenistic message.
Take the infamous Hitman Absolution as an example, she claims the game encourages players to observe the strippers or knock them out and drag them around in arousing fashion, but the game portrays them not in a titalating way but an empathetical one. The club was framed as a place of exploitation and reflective of the toxic masculinity of the owner, which you have to kill. The point of the spot where she demonstrated her point to me is to overhear their conversation and develop compassion for their misery, which is backed up by the fact that they never look away from the mirrors and will not be a threat at all. The entire game presents a grim dark reality of the exploitative nature of capitalism and income disparity. The cities are always dilepitated and shrouded in grey. It puts the stripper scene in context that Anita just kinda ignored.
Edit: sorry for the spellings. I'm typing on a phone.
I wish this video existed several years ago and snapped me and my dumbass out of the anita hate circlejerk.
Even as someone who really enjoyed Double Dragon Neon and Binary Domain I can see Anitas point ragrding their depiction of women, and its nice to see that point put into context instead of misrepresented by some hack skeptic who takes the scenario too literally.
Nevertheless it is a legitimate interpretation of a videogames narrative. Assuming you mean "takes the scenario too literally" as people interpreting these videogames with a realistic lens.
@@DrCooch I think that point is made in this video, the intrerpretation of double dragon as a love story, why are these things mutually exclusive? Can we not say that Double Dragon is an exaggeratted fun story about romance and also has a particualrly crap depiction of a female character?
It doesn't really address Anita's point to just say that she's being too literal because she clearly isn't making an arguement that Double Dragon is real life or influences anything in real life and she says as much in her video on the subject.
I never hated anita (never knew her back then) but I used to hate SJWs. Which is weird because I consider myself as a feminist, but hated the term "feminism". My experience is best explained by "contrapoints" where feminists are painted to be these uncool loud and evil women wanting to end men. So by saying I hate feminism, I accidentally contribute to this anti feminism propaganda even if it's not my belief!this made me really want to be wary of the internet especially with the weird shit the white supremacists are doing.
It's not a "circle jerk". She's a terrible, unintelligent, hateful person who deserves to be completely excluded from compassionate, rational society. She's lower that roach feces.
Hey Joel, I've been watching you for a year or so and I just wanted to say that this video was particularly on point. You really put in to words a lot of the points I've thought before (I'm a woman who likes games for context). I actually started watching Anita's videos a year or two before they got famous - I remember when her videos had a few 10K views and were like 95% upvotes. I was actually baffled when the community turned so hard on her. She doesn't even say anything particularly controversial, and she also doesn't call for the destruction of games or anything, she just gives her critique. Anyway, thanks very much for the content, I'll go check out your patreon now.
The only reason Mario is a plumber is that when working with extremely primitive game displays, a few pixels to give him overalls is enough to make him more than just a generic man form. Aside from his ability to use pipes to travel around the Mushroom Kingdom, there is no evidence he even knows about plumbing. The only place he's actually treated like a low-class plumber is in the incredibly different movie adaptation, which most Mario fans completely disavow. In the actual games, he's treated like a standard knight figure who happens to wear overalls. Trying to pretend that the Mario games actually represent a low-class man is just intellectual dishonesty. No one could seriously make that argument. There's no serious debate even occurring; it's "shut up" pretending to be smart.
Ok, but why a plumber vs anything else that could easily be conveyed with NES-era pixel art? Why not a knight, for example? I also am not sure of any claim that Mario was meant to be working class, but your reasons for why it most definitely isn't is not convincing.
Wouldn't it have been easier to do it based on the original GIRL character, Pauline? Why make the shift from male to female?
@@xBINARYGODx Keep in mind that Mario started as Jumpman, the protagonist of Donkey Kong, for Atari and related hardware, not even NES. Jumpman was so primitive that overalls were just about the best they could do to make him distinctive. He was reused for Super Mario Bros, which replaced the King Kong knockoff with a surreal knight quest story with koopas, goombas, and other trippy things. None of it really makes sense. Look at Legend of Zelda for something with more thematic consistency.
The movie is the only cannon imo.
It seems you forgot the original Mario Bros, where mario and luigi were cleaning an underground world with pipes from koopas and thats it.
Remember when a handful of misanthropic neckbeards convinced a bunch of impressionable kids to harass a reasonable pop culture critic? Those were gentler times.
@The Bandog Nice fantasy there, buddy.
From Wikipedia: "The Tropes vs Women project triggered a campaign of sexist harassment against Sarkeesian that included rape and death threats, hacking of her webpages and social media, and doxing. Attackers posted disparaging comments online, vandalized Sarkeesian's article on Wikipedia with racial slurs and sexual images, and sent Sarkeesian drawings of herself being raped by video game characters.[32][33][34][35][36]
One attacker created the computer game Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian, which prompted players to bloody a picture of Sarkeesian by clicking the mouse.[34][37] Toronto feminist Stephanie Guthrie received death and rape threats for criticizing the Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian game.[33][38][39][40] The resulting criminal trial against critic Gregory Alan Elliott is regarded as having significant implications for online freedom of speech in Canada.[41][42] Sarkeesian responded to the threats against Guthrie in a statement to the Toronto Standard, condemning the widespread harassment she and other women have faced online.[43][44]
Sarkeesian's elevated profile led to speaking engagements on sexual harassment and online communities at the TEDxWomen conference and several universities.[45][46][47][48][49]
In March 2014, Sarkeesian was scheduled to speak and receive an award at the 2014 Game Developers Choice Awards. The organizers later revealed that they had received an anonymous bomb threat and that San Francisco police had swept the Moscone Center hall before the event proceeded.[50]
In August 2014, Feminist Frequency issued a new Tropes vs Women in Games episode. This coincided with the ongoing harassment of Zoë Quinn as part of the Gamergate controversy. The increased volume and specificity of the harassment (including death threats) prompted Sarkeesian to leave her home. San Francisco Police confirmed that they had passed the case file to the FBI for investigation.[51][52]
On October 14, 2014, Sarkeesian and Utah State University received terrorist threats pertaining to her planned lecture at the university the following day. The threats, one of which was issued by a person who claimed to be affiliated with Gamergate,[53] specifically cited the 1989 École Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, Quebec, Canada as inspiration. The university and police did not believe the threats were credible inasmuch as they were consistent with others Sarkeesian had received, but scheduled enhanced security measures nonetheless. Sarkeesian canceled the event, however, feeling the planned security measures were insufficient given that the university could not prohibit handguns in the venue per Utah state law.[54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61]
In an August 2015 interview with The Guardian, Sarkeesian remarked of dealing with the pervasive harassment (her "new normal") that older mentors and feminists told her "We were dealing with that, but they were throwing rocks at us".[62]
The media scholar Soraya Murray describes the attack as a "watershed moment" in the "culture war" being fought over representations of women and minorities in video games.[21] "
I was never a harasser but man am I glad I outgrew my antifeminism phase.
Goddamn that shit sucked
@Chandler Burse An out-of-control leftie can't do nearly as much damage as an out-of-control rightie. What's the leftie going to do -- equality and fairness his opponent to death?
@Chandler Burse Well it's not my place to argue. You've seen what you've seen. But given that white nationalists are the deadliest terrorist group in the U.S., meaning they've killed more people in recent years than any other terrorist group, I tend to fear them more than any anti-police protesters.
@Chandler Burse I agree that the extremists are not going to solve any problems. I hope someday we will get back to where people who disagree can just sit down and talk it out.
when I was a teenager I hated Anita Sarkeesian and loved watching SJW fail/owned comps
I try to live a life defined by understanding and compassion nowadays - it's just a shame at how much of a negative impact people like Sargon can have
have you actually looked at Sarkeesian, past her feminism?
she scams people out of their money, she's a hypocrite and she's a hateful person, in general.
whenever she hates on sexy female characters, it never sounds like a genuine critique, it just sounds like she hates women, who look better than her.
her whole demeanor is so passive aggressive, it's unbearable! i feel like if she was a man, most people would see what kind of person she really is.
she has zero interest in the media, she's criticizing and yet she acts like a total expert on said media. THIS is why people hate her!
and even if i would be a feminist, i still wouldn't like her, at all. because her behavior doesn't suggest that she actually wants equal rights. rather the opposite.
Anita's still pretty bad though.
Young people are easy to manipulate, that's why they want you to pray and say the pledge of allegiance, trying to force someone to sign a contract before they can read so you can later accept a weak argument without question.
Opposing Marxism, female supremacism, and toxic femininity is living a life of understanding and compassion. You're going down the path of hate.
Anita is a bad person you 🤡.
If Anita sarkeesian didn't exist literally every RUclips skeptic would have become a crypto currency guy
Sean Murphy Underrated comment.
Lol it's funny because it's basically true. Very true actually lololol.
Now they're crypto fascists
@ShaddowSabbath
I think you're being a bit absurd. Why shouldn't people be allowed to be upset when things aren't going their way by little fault of their own.
@ShaddowSabbath protests in general are supposed to be disruptive. Like people being upset about their protest is a feature not a bug.
So are you saying all of that time I spent playing Farm Simulator 2015, I wasn't ACTUALLY building a farm?!?!
You were actually helping build the Patriarchy. REPENT!
@@GnomiMoody I do!!
93.5 Friendship Station speaking of which, did you know that Farming Simulator has tournaments?
Kazi Islam I did not and I don’t know what to do with this new information.
@@93.5friendshipstation Just reside among the rest of us who are completely befuddled that such a game has an intense competitive scene.
Just let it sit there in your mind. You don't need to do anything with it.
I disagree with Anita Sarkessian(I do agree with some of her points though) but I don't think she should've gotten the toxicity turned towards that she has.
Nazis hate women. They made it a thing lol.
@Jesus Christ that's the equivalent of saying "1950s America wasn't homophobic thats just how LGBTQ people were treated at the time!"
@@COOLMCDEN Your comeback deserves a standing ovation. Well done, good job at pointing out the issue
@@COOLMCDEN I don't know, I think they're pretty different. Because despite women's poor treatment were they necessarily hated ? I don't think so. Perhaps underappreciated and undervalued, but hated I think fails to accurately describe how women were viewed then.
Thou who dare to peek into the darkness of the comments section. Beware. Some things in this Universe aren't meant for the sane of mind...
I wish this had been on top 😥
Good thing I'm bonkers then.
Is it really the darkness in the comment section? Or is this just really an expression of the darkness within ourselves?
The problem with Anita is she focused on every single example of female characters in videos that could be construed as "sexist". Multiple times she listed nuanced female characters with sexualized traits as sexist despite their own personal strengths.
She wasn't very informed on games and Josh Macintosh clearly read summaries for quite a few games stories rather than experiencing it himself
An understanding of ART?
But games are SCIENCE! Thunderf00t is a SCIENTIST!
There's no ART in POPULAR MEDIA! Picasso wasn't an ARTIST!
fuck "art." it's just an excuse to waste time on pointless bullshit and push your personal fetishes into the public sphere.
@@robokill387 god youre so fucking cool and normal
Your comment made me think of roosh's heartfelt "I'm not a baker, I'm a BREAD SCIENTIST"
Good one
shazam as an artist I can confirm
*big joel big joel big joel big joel*
Imagine being so angered by women existing that you become Sargon.
@@legalize.brokkoli what an embarrassing thing to say XD
@@NinjaDoilyn what an embarrassing thing to write XD
YamaChampion no more embarrassing than the original comment
@@pootisspencer5492 Very embarrassing
It's not like she called Sargon "A sexist pos" for criticizing her attacks on men enjoying video games.
I still think a lot of her criticisms are invalid she definitely ignored the context for many of the games she criticizes. However I don’t condemn anybody because they make what I feel to be bad criticisms. She did absolutely abuse her Kickstarter though. The production cost on her show is not so high that it justifies the infrequency with which she puts out shows. And she totally didn’t deliver on the Kickstarter prizes. Good video but it didn’t convince me of very much. I do agree with you that the way she has been criticized by anti-sjws isn’t optimal. I don’t despise Anita sarkeesian but I do think she stains what should be legitimate discourse. Looking at games through a feminist lens could bring about interesting discussion. But not the way she does it.
Thank you. You're putting into words exactly what I feel after watching this
gianni pischella I can understand that. Obviously games are a good way to take a break from all that political bullshit but looking at media from a political lens is an interesting thought exercise. I don’t necessarily think the modern feminist perspective on media is correct but it’s engaging nonetheless. It’s just an interesting method of critique. But I totally get that the game’s quality shouldn’t be judged by a political rubric. I love video games and it would suck if they became an predominantly political thing.
Felt the whole 25k crowd funding for a discord server scummy to her fans with a further stretch goal 35k for virtual online visit to high school which both things can be done for free
SquirrelAids Yeah she definitely milks her unearned status in the feminist community.
gianni pischella I don’t think the feminist perspective is at all especially worthy. It’s just the topic of discussion. It’s fine to assess art from any and all lenses. And I’d say feminism was moreso derived from classic liberal philosophy than it was from Marxism. At least in its origin. Feminism predates Marxism.
And just to make it clear, I’m not a feminist at least in the academic sense. I’m all for equality of the sexes but not for forced outcomes. I don’t care for feminist academia.
Also it’s super cool that this while feminist conversation isn’t an American only thing because other perspectives can be really refreshing.
Games are art, art affects culture, and thus it is important to criticise that art when it presents a harmful ideology. It doesn't mean you can't like said art, but it's important to acknowledge its flaws.
Love ya Joel ❤
"art affects culture"
Alright... Hey, McCarthy! Turns out you were right!
Who decides what is harmful? There is no consent on that.
@gianni pischella criticism is not censorship. Criticism is free speech.
Svartalfur
Art CAN affect culture, but it doesn't necessarily ALWAYS affect culture. I mean, violent video games are increasingly popular and yet the overall amount of violent crime has actually gone down in much of the western world as sales of these games increase.
@gianni pischella Criticism is not censorship. You just criticized my comment by expressing a different opinion, but you did NOT censor it because it is still there and you don't have the power to remove it. See the difference?
i’m sorry but i immediately lose respect for everyone who says something like FACTS and LOGIC or whatever when talking about feminism or leftism or whatever. like i don’t like anita but anti-SJWs who spend all their time yelling at feminists are as, if not more immature than the people they yell at.
Yeah I find it hard to listen to people who constantly act like they are so much better and smarter then other people. It just makes your argument sound weaker .
If not even worse and pervasive.
Most feminists are just sick of not being treated equally in life or sexualized for no reason and incels are pissed that they’re becoming less easy to get
Actual rationality and objectivity don’t exist when we’re speaking about other parts of constructed society... for the record, IQ doesn’t exist either, humans don’t have a measurably universal intelligence, it’s just eugenics and faux race science (all race science is fake) these dudes love bc it makes them feel special and idk, ubermensch. I can’t take people seriously when they talk about that shit.
I do have a soft spot of the facts and logic meme but in its memetic quality only
They're not yelling, they're disproving using those tools and metrics which disprove.
I love that he reduces her wearing lipstick to trying to look aroused. Nothing to do with wanting to look nice for herself and in front of the all seeing camera.
in his defense, when i get turned on my lips turn crayola red and my eyelashes transform into sharp dark points. it's really annoying and scary and i'm glad someone is finally bringing attention to it
there's no such thing as looking nice for yourself.
@@MajorstiQ hopefully you were being sarcastic?
if not: there are many ways people alter their appearance, and many reasons.
many of those reasons are just as much for the person who is changing their looks, as it is for other people.
if this is news to you, then I suggest you research it more. at the very least, consider talking to people about why they do what they do with their looks.
If a feminist looks good, then she's undercutting her own beliefs because she did it to appease men. If a feminist looks bad, well that's just the default and she's an acceptable target for any harassment thrown her way. Great way to immediately dismiss a person no matter what they look like!
what a creep
ITs HaRd To ThInk oF a MoRe UnDerPriVileDgeD MalE ThaN An ItAliAn PlUmBeR
When I think "disposable" I think "plumber"
Glad I’m not the only one who cringed at this. White males are obviously the least oppressed demographic and plumbers, while not having the most glorious title, make very good money and easily reside in the upper middle class.
Obviously much more maligned than the innocent black teenagers gunned down by racist cops.
Everyone knows that when you finally get to save Peach, she just turns you down and says "I don't date Italian plumbers," and if that's not underprivileged I don't know what is.
@@mude_13 In the 19earlies Italians were actually pretty oppressed, and so were the Irish. Don't disagree with anything else just wanted to say that.
@@edboimcdedboi2314 true but not anymore, our definition of white has changed a lot to include a lot more people than just Anglo Saxons
One part that stood out to me was when those RUclipsrs said that video games are directed to males, so _obviously_ they would objectify women. What about the females that play video games like me? What about the males not attracted to females? I feel like part of the reason there aren't that many females that play video games is because it seems so "male-centric". Maybe if we had different protagonist options (e.g. male, female, non-binary, etc), then we could have more different genders playing these games, and ultimately, changing some of the video game industry.
If companies see that reaching out to certain demographics is not profitable, because those demographics will not spend much money on products, even when they cater to them, then companies cannot be blamed if they don't cater to those demographics. Are makeup companies sexist because they don't offer equal amounts of products catering to men? Are romance novel publishers sexist? Or are we ascribing malicious motives to companies, rather than considering the possibility that, yes, given a free choice, more men than women will spend their money on [x], and more women than men will spend their money on [y]. I guess it's easier to blame capitalism than to admit that some inequality is the fault of no one but natural selection.
"Video games are predominantly for male audiences"
I always find issue with this statement as it's terribly reductive. Being a woman myself, I remember being in awe of well-done, powerful and ambitious female characters like Yennefer from Witcher or Cynthia from Pokemon, to name but a few.
This may be very anecdotal, but it's important to keep in mind that representation, when done right, can be an increasingly good thing.
Anecdotal is still better than completely pulled out of ones ass.
The Witcher is really gross on women. The player literally collects them as playing card sex trophies in the first game. Sure, Yennefer is cool and all, but her goodish (she sucks in the first game but gets better over time) character is in service of a game that is unabashedly for male audiences.
@@TheSLATEcleaner
So what's gross exactly?
@@MrCmon113 Literally having women in your game be collectible sex trading cards? That is absolutely abhorrent and if you cannot see how that is gross, you are too far gone to talk to.
@@TheSLATEcleaner
There is plenty of games in which you collect bounties or just kill counts. Compared to that collecting sex partners is rather wholesome imo.
Thank you, Big Joel (who is neither big, nor joel)
I used to be really into this discourse and still have a sort of post-traumatic-like experience when I think about Anita's work. I have grown a lot since then, and stopped finding those popular voices of descent nearly as entertaining as I did at the time. I still do think that there is a framework or tone that Anita uses that is inherently off-putting, but even at the time I knew the way counter-arguments were being formed was weak and weaponized.
I thank you because it was very cathartic to hear what was wrong from you. It helped me see why I grew away from the Thunderfoots and Sargons and have found myself somewhere else. Somewhere very different. You're making a difference, and please keep it up!
Clybournes Clyburn
She speaks calmly, is clear, and the content was actually fun to watch most of the time. How the heck is that off putting really? What more does she need to do, be even nicer? I think statements like this is just people looking for a reason to give to themselves for acting irrationally. A need for a logical reason to explain a completely irrational reaction (because we like to think of ourselves as being completely rational all the time). I'd say just be as honest as possible about your reasons for believing what you did, and admit there really weren't any good ones
First off, the commenter below you is way out of line. Reported them for the vicious slurs and other nonsense. Anyway... sometimes people don't understand their emotions, but they don't just have emotions for no reason. Suggesting that that's the case is pretty irrational. Clyburn up there admitted that they had misunderstood their emotions which led to hateful behavior and that they have since grown as a person, even though they still don't understand those same emotions. Clyburn is being as honest as possible. If someone was deceived about a specific fact, for example how often they needed to drink water, and told you they needed to drink less often than they really did and then became dehydrated, they wouldn't have been dishonest. They just didn't know they needed to drink water more often. You can't admit something you don't know. I'd wager that Clyburn feels the way they do because games, particularly some of the games that Sarkeesian critiques, are near and dear to them and attached to important memories in their life or have otherwise provided them with needed support and stability, often physiologically and psychologically, in times of need. An attack on these games would then appear to them as a personal attack on their psychological stability in the same way that someone advocating for harsh punishments for heroin use might. Obviously, that doesn't mean that those games are a good thing, just like heroin isn't a good thing, but it does logically explain the response. It's definitely not "no reason". I know mostly you're just poking holes in the "rationality" rhetoric they use, but it's also a pretty toxic rhetoric that I literally wouldn't wish the use of upon my worst enemies.
@@Nshane100
Really? What vicious slurs did I use?
@@Scoring57 Nah the guy below you, man. I was responding to you. Should have included the name, but I reported him so I can't see it anymore. My bad.
@@Nshane100
I don't see a comment below me that's why I assumed you were talking to me.
I sorted by new and I saw the abyss.
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.
"the damsel in distress trope is good, actually, because the kidnapper is bad and the guy saving her is doing a good thing" might be the single dumbest argument I have heard in my life, which is saying A *LOT.*
(just found your channel through your "conservative comedy ruined my life" video and I'm binging, hi, love your stuff)
I’m dying
I literally just got done rewatching the angry Jack videos so this is kinda... weird timing
Y'mean from Innuendo Studios? He is a good boy who does good work.
@@ShoggothLord Ya darn right
Innuendo Studios is daddy
@@jessbian3385 No!!!.... Yeah 😏
Yeah, I finished watching them for the first time just yesterday so I'm also a bit weirded out haha
In conclusion... gamers need to realize that
W E L I V E I N A S O C I E T Y
lol
As a man, twilight is obviously grossly sexist. Two men fighting over a woman? That normalizes the idea that men are meatbags who women can pick and chose.
We live in a society, we can't have works of fiction not measured by the gram to be 100% balanced between male and female protagonists.
@jocaguz18 That's just how these people criticizing works of fiction sound like.
@@restlessfrager
But does that really have any effect on your life?
@@Scoring57 As much as videogames do on those snowflakes' lives, which is not enough to create a movement about it.
Oh god Big Joel you said the dark mother's name!
@Jonathan Eilbeck The gentle gamers shall rise up and break the chains of oppression. (Poe's Law)
Saying people can't be sexy in media gives the air of sexual shaming. But can agree that not enough scantily clad men in games we have to use character creation for that most the time.
Great video. Also, I really like your sweater.
Adding to the Mario argument. Arguably it is an even bigger male power fantasy. The idea being that Mario, a blue collar worker, and average guy. Has the power to save a powerful princess and the world. "EVEN YOU, the random everyday man, have th power and ability to overcome great ordeals and hold control over this supposed power figure, this technically world leader's (though only in name) safety!"
This is probably not even the original intent of the game, and likely never has or will be. But the ways in which what's his face tries to draw attention to how being a princess means she has power and being a plumber means he's undesirable actively ignores how power fantasies actually work. They're meant to make those consuming media feel as though they are more capable of exerting their power over others, and what better way of doing this than making the protagonist the closest they can be to the ordinary people consuming the media?
Your ability to deconstruct arguments truly calms my soul thank you 🙏
his eyes are so large, it feels like he’s making direct eye-contact with me through the screen
I think your overall point is good and correct, but I do have a nit to pick. Near the middle of this video you say something about how science can't disprove what you know to be a basic fact about what the purpose of media is, and I've got to disagree with that. Lots of things that are or were 'common sense' have been disproven by science, because the universe is complicated, and often to gain a deeper understanding of it you have to reason in ways that are orthogonal to the way we instinctively use logic. There's a reason the scientific method had to be invented. The far more interesting point you make is that it doesn't matter whether cultivation theory is true or not because a work of art can be bad in and of itself regardless of its effect on people, and I'm glad most of the video was focused on this.
Nope! Hes right. There are things that simply cant be quantified or measured.
@@KAXSH ... and we can't know if those are true.
Whhooohooo it's back!
Also, the comments really took a turn for the garbage, damn.
the gamers rose up and now this comment section lives in a society so hard
Having just one Sargon fan in your comment section drops the average IQ by 10 points.
Games could just be causing violent crime to go up even as murder rates fall.