The Calvinism Debate w/
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- This is my first formal debate. However, I think it is abundantly clear that exegetically my position is the more tenable. JP struggles to make sense of texts and uses emotive rhetoric to try to shake me. The Lord was on my side and kept me calm, cool, and collected. @CaldwellApologetics reviewed this debate and seemed to indicate that it was rather one sided. I will let you decide though. Who won the debate? This debate took place on @tgtengage channel and I am grateful that Marlon would allow me to participate. I am also thankful that JP agreed to the debate
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Good debate. JP Coming right out the gate with the most emotional argument he can think of
This is all they've got.
JP has no idea what Calvinism teaches based on his statement. So he loses right there.
I'm about 56 minutes in. JP has said more than once that Jerry is reading his Calvinistic interpretation into the text. JP seems to be unaware that he is reading his own interpretations into the text. (eg. the statement on what he says true love is.)
1:32:08 What led up for them to be predestined... Thats not how language works. Pre destination. This comes first. Thats the definition of predestination. Something they do cant lead up to them being predestined. It doesn't make sense.
As much as JP talks about n debates calvies you'd think he'd understand it alittle better ......
Great debate! Calvinism for the win!!!
CRANK IT UP
A couple minutes and I can’t listen Jp he doesn’t know what he is arguing 🤣
As I rewatched this, I realized that my questions could have been a little better. However, I still feel that the person who is paying attention can see that most of his responses in the crossx time were actually nonanswers or just made no sense.
Oh my goodness. Do babies go to hell? What a dumb question. It implies that man can judge if a person is sinful or not based on age.
JP appears to concede that God has perfect foreknowledge. Here's what he's not seeing: If, before creating anything, God already knew all that would take place through all history--including all the sins of man--and yet He created the universe anyway, saying, "Let there be light," THAT is the decree.
JP’s arguments would seem more appropriate if he was debating a hyper-Calvinist.
A natural man can only choose a false god for himself no matter what he names it..Joshua was telling unbelievers, " if you think its evil to serve the Lord,choose you this day one of the false gods".
Either way, the command to choose doesn’t imply the ability. I can tell a drunk to stay sober but that doesn’t mean the drunk has the ability to stay sober
JP sounds like Angel Reese after every game, “did y’all see what I did? Did I deliver or what? Look at me, I brought fire”…someone give this man his flowers before he starts crying again “he took a shot at me”
@@davisbelas3516 you win most savage comment. Lol 😂 🏅
@@TwitchyThelogian lol
“He took a shot at me” lol soft as grandma’s cookies…this man shook his head and called Calvinist heretics for 2 hours, said we teach a different gospel, and said we worship a different God….but as soon as he’s accused of saying something heretical like you gotta repent for future sins or they’re not forgiven, or that you can be reborn/regenerated and then undo it…essentially breaking the seal of the Holy Spirit, he almost cries lol “he took a shot at me” 🙄
I most definitely agree that Calvinism is a different gospel than what arminians teach
@@roguecalvinist I argue that they have the basics. They just don’t have the fully orbed fleshed out aspect of it.
Galatians 1:6-9 ESV
> [6] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- [7] not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
The kind of rhetoric presented here, of Arminians preaching a different gospel, is divisive and splits the church.
If Arminians teach a different gospel, then they should not be considered brethren. Rather, they should be considered accursed.
So, should Calvinists consider Arminians or Synergists brethren? Or are they anathema (accursed)?
@@Narikku people throw that word around like they have authority over it. Like if you say that they are anathema then they just are...
Not how it works.
"Make a choice to say that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and say that you repent, whether any of that's true or not, just say it, to be saved"
Is not the gospel
@@roguecalvinist What do you think Paul meant when he said, "Let him be accursed (anathema)?"
@@Narikku it's a curse from God if you teach a different gospel. It's not from Paul. He's saying let it be
Eph 1:12 "to the end that..." Thats decidedly not telling you why. Its telling you the result of having been predestined in v11. In which language would "to the end that" translate to because.
To answer JP question I would’ve shown him John 6:37. I understand that in a debate some scripture escapes us. Great job brother!
@@BibleStudywithVernon appreciate it man. It is really hard to think about things off the top of the head while being pressured
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 bro did NOT really just say... You know... Sometimes that passage reads... Any OTHER thing... So, you know, I'm OTHER than all things in creation, so therefore, any ORHER things, doesn't include me. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
This dude being straight goofy!
@@Given119 he attacked me for “Not using logic” tho. Lol 😂
JP clearly lacks humility and grace…shocker, people who think their free will choice trumps God’s sovereignty are typically full of pride and self righteousness.
If you were to look at the fruits of the spirit, and juxtapose them against JP's rhetoric and actions during a debate, you'd he hard pressed to say JP is even saved.
At about 2:02:20, JP reads TallGlass's question about predestination. JP's answer is insufficient.
It's important to realize that 21st Century Americans are not the audience the writers in the New Testament were addressing at the time. Modern Westerners in general, and Americans in particular don't like to be told that decisions were made for us without our input. But how did the audience in the New Testament understand predestination? How did Theophilus, or the churches at Ephesus, Corinth, and Rome understand predestination? Based on his answer, I'm not convinced JP has dealt with this question.
JPs response makes no sense in light of the fact that individuals are predestined and not plans.
@@TwitchyThelogian Good point. Anti-Calvinists tend to make the plan the object of predestination in Ephesians 1, rather than the people the text refers to.
Listen... I can't listen to anymore of thos JP guy. He's pretending to be smart in order to argue, instead of being genuine, and honestly dealing with whats being said in the text.
How on earth can a man say he doesn't see where it says something in the text, then read the text, SPEAKING the words he doesn't see... I just can't watch any more. Sorry.
I appreciate you watching as long as you did lol
Jp must not be aware that,not all have eyes to see or ears to hear spiritual things ,thats the whole problem. Eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual things takes the power of the HOLY SPIRIT to heal our blind eyes and deaf ears,we cannot choose to not be blind or deaf...
P.s it's bard and apothecary by the way. Next time let us know you're having a debate. Hopefully we can come and support you in chat
@@jonlambert817 thanks. I will let u know the next time I have a debate
13 min in and the guy is basically confessing that the video you sent him wasn't watched. 🤦🏼♂️ I think I'm going to just skip the rest of what he has to say in his opening... Yeah
@@Given119 he says that he watched the video but he clearly ignored everything I had to say. I think I sent him a video where I teach on biblical free will and reprobation. He ignored both and kept strawmanning
@@TwitchyThelogian only going on that part that I've heard so far, he essentially said, nothing changes that God's determination of events means man isn't free... Personally, I would grant that for a moment and ask, would you, as a Christian reject God if He created you subject to His will and determination of events? Would you spite God for determining everything that happens? Remember! We're talking the same God as described in the scriptures, the same one you believe in now, but include that He's created all things for a purpose that will be carried out... Something like that.
"created" is actually there in the greek. Rom 8 37. You cant just take it out
My JP impression... Yeah.. so i see it says the days of the righteous are determined... But i don't believe that so... Lets go to Proverbs and read, because you know I read the whole Bible and Calvinists only read parts, and not like really read it, but just pretend to... So anyways the Bible says add to your days, so now what! Take that! You didn't know that, did you?!
The whole let's get into the philosophy of choosing thing is not for everyone... 😂😂
Idk... I think in this type of settings I would simply say, "God's decrees are the basis of reality, what is, that which is REAL, and actually happening (Hebrews 11:3) All things are under His authority (Col 1:16&16)
And by Him, according to His will and decree all things consist (Col 1:17) that is exists, in reality.
So, I don't really care if we can use our imagination to think of some other possibility, I'm here to talk about what is, in reality, what God has decreed."
@@Given119 yea. It was hard to explain my view in that small time frame/ I was trying to get him to see that even Edwards and other Reformed guys (myself included) believe that we choose freely. We just believe that choice is based on our greatest desire and that it is consistent with God’s decree of all things. He wouldn’t allow for compatibilism and kept assuming incompatabalism. At one point he even says “Forget compatibilism.” N I’m thinking “I can’t because that is my position. Lol
@@TwitchyThelogian yes, that's exactly what provoked my comment! 🤣
Marlon, why did you allow the non-Calvinists to keep speaking so many ad hominems? All throughout the cross exam, he kept down talking and insulting Twitchy. 1:00:00
@@AtomicApolo that’s alright man. That’s a part of JPs gig. It’s all entertainment to him. Marlon just didn’t wanna seem biased
Revelation 13:8 (ESV)
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Revelation 17:8 (ESV)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit[a] and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
Great exegesis of scripture twitchy. At least jpuncut actually addresses scripture unlike warren or Flowers so from his side at least it's an improvement by a bit
Thanks. I am going to bring on a Provisionist to review this debate (Lord willing). The guy I’m bringing on is one of the sharpest guys I know n I think u will find it interesting. So stay tuned in
The reality of being in Heaven has God working in us now and ultimately then in Heaven having taken away any inclination to sin. You and I don’t decide if that will happen. It will happen because of God and those born again say Amen because of the new heart given to us in this temporal world longs for the total removal of sin.
Libertarian free will has man living apart from God being tossed to and fro with no security with doubt that God may uphold us through this life in completion of the work He began.
Acts 2:23 and Acts 4:28 case closed
We gotta abandon the "If I know someone is going to shoot someone in the head it doesn't mean I caused it" type of arguments.
We don't really KNOW what someone will do, even if they explicitly say it. God has perfect knowledge. We operate on levels of believability. There can be a 99.9% probability that something will happen, but we cannot say we know it will happen with 100% certainty.
I believe we have LFW, but this is a bad analogy.
@@sngehl01 I would like to discuss the libertarian free will thing sometime. I just don’t think that view is philosophically possible or even biblically possible. Would u be willing to discuss this on the channel?
@@TwitchyThelogian Would I be willing to discuss? Sure.
I am not the first person you would probably want to discuss it, as I am not a learned man in theology (yet).
Can I email you directly?
There is no debate.
Romans 9:16 KJV
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
@@TheHighCalvinist. at least we can agree on this. Even though u really disrespected me in other comments
@TwitchyThelogian You disrespect yourself acting like you do Jerry. You need to grow up.
All people are evil people, JP. The only difference between those in Heaven and those in Hell is Gods grace,not any goodness in us.
1:07:30 "youre showing me that Christ can use enemies to ultimately accomplish his will". So Christ's enemies dont have free will...
Colossians 1:21 (LSB) And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in mind and in evil deeds,
Colossians 1:22 (LSB) but now He reconciled you in the body of His flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-
52:40 - Eph 1 4 the predestination happened before the foundation of the world. The believing happened after. This is just not how time works. You cant say the first thing happened because the second thing. You could however say they only believed because they were predestined to. I
So the stipulation for believing is that you were predetermined to be holy and blameless in Christ.
Wow this jp guy is a jerk. Bad faith debate with his condescending talk. Jerry has way too much patience. Wheres the moderator
As many as were appointed believed. Just cause you flip the words around doesnt change the meaning.
@@derrickmcfall8702 right?! I was shocked that he actually tried to flip the words to change acts 13:48. It is too straight forward.
Does JP interact on here?
@@Joe881 he used to interact with me but he got mad at me when Caldwell Apologetics reviewed our debate. He said that I should have stuck up for him but I felt like Caldwell was fair.
@TwitchyThelogian one question I want to ask him is... if he believes that all babies go to heaven when they die, then he must believe regeneration precedes faith.
There is no unregenerate in heaven.
35:10 every thing you do is an illusion of freedom. You have a sin nature and are a slave to sin.
@@derrickmcfall8702 I don’t think it is an illusion. I think we need to define freedom biblically. For example, God has free will. God can’t sin because that would violate His nature. Therefore, free will is doing whatever u desire in accordance with your nature. That affirms that we are slaves to sin while maintaining that we are indeed free to some extent. I really think my Gerstner quote explains it best.
JP is free will christian gangster. 😂
@@suganemmenaul should we get him the reformed thug life glasses? Lol 😂
JP 100 % CORECT HINTS Y I WILL NEVER DEBATE WITH YOU BC YOU HAVE ALREADY BEN DEBATED
@@GodsIntegrityPathways I’m not too worried about it. You have a lot of maturing to do before it would be a productive debate.
@@TwitchyThelogian Proverbs 1:23Isaiah 11:2John 14:26John 16:131 Corinthians 2:10-13James 1:5 here are the passages that talk about the spirit of God guiding u into all truth God Bless Im glad u think that I love you to Brother🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏❤️❤️❤️❤️