I was initially not going to post this panel but this specific segment provides context for the next video/debate and Destiny speaks the most here so enjoy. If you're reading this then you have to like the video, comment and subscribe. Tyty
Tiffany was way too antagonistic towards the others, eg when she mentions she was rudely interrupted by the brittish guy. She needs to chill and work on her retoric if she wants to become a good debater.
I have sympathy for her though, it’s a very personal topic for her. It’s hard to be objective and argue in calm manner when you feel that opposing arguments are attacks against a fundamental part of your personhood.
@@lobaxx You’re completely right. The issue here is that she is just a bad representation of the left here. I can bet no one who disagrees with her was brought around whether that be the debaters or viewers which is ridiculous considering that some of the panelers were brought around after this conversation and they weren’t even insulting her or anything before she made it really heated. First time I agree with everything someone says and yet wished they took a backseat because their rhetoric was far more detrimental to the left.
@@lobaxx its a personal topic to me too but she just is doing more harm than good by engaging in such poor rhetoric, its not hard to be objective about your points unless youre just incapable of controlling your emotions and behaving reasonably, and if that's the case she should stay far away from any discussion as she has shown that she doesnt have the bandwidth to engage in proper discussion
These people literally are calling her and all other trans people mentally ill based on their own chauvinistic interpretations and fears about identity. They’re legitimately delegitimizing the existence of trans people on the basis of their identity, which is far worse than calling a person “stupid.” It’s just like expecting a black person to have a civil debate with you while you repeatedly call them the N word.
Tiffany was like playing a video game with your little sibling and they just get in the way and die over and over again. I'm glad destiny played nice though
Yeah... I agree with her but she words her arguments and responds to questions to badly. Even if you look past her being aggressive (which you could easily dismiss as arguing for something close and personal to her) people will ask her a question and she'll answer in a way that doesn't really relate to their questions. In addition her interrupting Destiny to take dumb jabs at people for no reason came off really irritating.
It was frustrating since every time she was given a chance to speak, those arguments end up 'losing water' because she's so poor at delivering them and it leads to people easily dunking her. Even if she's correct, she goes about it in the worst way. Not only that, but her talking takes away from the time other people have to combat the misinformed positions. In a different format, like if Destiny was allowed to clarify every time she speaks, then it'd be fine. But not in this format.
Is Tiffany trans? She got so incredibly heated during the initial trans segment. Kinda seems like she was taking it personally. Edit: Never mind about it being the beginning. I had it paused right after it sounded like she was bringing it back to the original topic. So I'm guessing that other video spans this whole discussion.
I had to stop halfway through because she was frustrating me. I don't know if she's just not practiced enough in discussion, or this format, or what. It was especially aggravating that she kept appealing to "this is what the organizations say", and then failing to elaborate why they say that. Or why that's important. If I'm not mistaken, isn't that flat out fallacious appeal to authority? She wasn't making any cases for what she was saying.
@@joej.3848 "isn't that flat out fallacious appeal to authority? Yeah, that's why it's important to include the _why_ or the source, _alongside_ the organization's position. There's nothing wrong with deferring to the top expert organizations for a source. She should have been able to explain or go into it, however. [edit: changed to "position"] [edit 2: got further in the conversation, her talking points weren't always correct, so that sentence is gone, lmao]
I don't always agree with destiny on topics, but he is honestly the best person to hear these ideas from. Watching people like ben shapiro always seem like they had the answers for things but destiny is the first person that ive heard that really has a counter argument to a lot of these and its always a joy listening to these nuggets.
Lowkey hating the people who scream "I'm not finished" or "I'm still speaking!!" Cuz every one of them is going to interrupt the very next person who talks
I did this a while ago with family members. It was propbably very annoying (my family is also very annoying though, so it kind of cnacelled out xD). I adopted Desteny's 'waitwaitwait' tactic a while ago and that works much better =).
Halfblood Princess It sucks when the topic changes, before getting to speak, but it’s a much more respectable approach. The less often we speak, the most intensely they listen when we do. I’d recommend having a few premade answers to popular questions. Use those moments when people actually pay attention to drop info that could actually change minds. Not sure why I just explained my approach to thanksgiving politics, but... lol
Rob linking HCA Virginia is funny considering that this is in their terms of use "WE DO NOT REPRESENT OR WARRANT THAT THE CONTENT OR INFORMATION PROVIDED OR MADE AVAILABLE VIA OUR SERVICES IS ACCURATE, COMPLETE OR CURRENT"
@@eugenebotsman I love watching Destiny shit on conservatives but I cannot stand listening to this man spew out complete fucking bullshit 24/7 like a brick wall and when anyone counter points him he just spouts back to exactly what they countered, he literally doesn't listen.
I wonder what it's like existing in a reality where you have super strong feelings about a preconception you have and are constantly scrambling to find one thing that vaguely sounds like it proves your preconception. And then rolling with it and feeling super confident rather than having literally any intellectual curiosity to go even a little bit further.
@@adrycough fucking horrible. I was a conservitive deep in that hole intill I came out as trans and was treated like shit. Ignorance is bliss intill it effects you
I am from Western Australia, we locked down hard here compared to the rest of Australia. We are back to normal life now. We had an extra 5 day lockdown because a strain got loose but ended up not affecting anyone else so life’s good.
meanwhile, us in florida still got the virus in full force. and we're probably gonna have another spike now because of spring break. boy oh boy do i love the united states
@@sadbread2446 Damn that sucks! Wish you and your family all the best. I think we are kinda lucky most people here just followed instructions from the head of the state.
This was the first debate where I felt like I could hear a lot of diverse opinions. The moderator did a good job of clarifying points and helping to move the discussion
Man, conservatives like Rob really are like an NPC. Can only engage with you through a prepared package of dialogue options and when you try to add a new entry or expansion to the dialogue options, the NPC experiences an error and goes back to the same dialogue tree. "I know you defeated my point already about transgenderism vs cross dressing, but let me return to this argument because it's the only lens through which my viewpoint made sense when I was coming up with it on my own." Pathetic
For us it’s a difficult process of thinking deeply, consulting evidence, reviewing sources and commentary and then coming to a conclusion, for the, it’s a game of memory and ego. That’s it. You’ll notice how easy it is for conservatives to spit out talking points and deflect and turn the conversation into some kind of labyrinth like it’s their native language. Half the battle or even more is just correcting their mistakes and it’s infuriating.
@@sharsasuke01 It is an industry. It's a category of production, and distribution. Though there are areas that don't fit that guys idea of absolutely no censorship like illustration which is highly censored.
I'm actually really thankful for Rob here. He's very openly admitting if transgenders didn't have gender dysphoria, then that it wouldn't be a mental illness, but that he simply thinks all transgender people have gender dysphoria. Because of that, he's simply clumping that together, but really he's only referring to Gender Dysphoria. It's just a matter of nudging him along where he can see that not all transgender people have gender dysphoria.
@@maddyc2412 I have to say that destiny was just as rediculus as him not that shes completely wrong but shes rediculously similar too Rob on almost every level except opinion
“In a do nothing scenario they said the US would have 2 million deaths and the UK would have 500k, they’ve been widely discredited” “That doesn’t seem to be that far off” “That’s not what I’m saying”
It's that slimy JLP thing where if it isn't an exact quote of you, it's a complete mischaracterisation and a lie. Primecayes also does it, which sucks because he's actually a chill dude.
@@dutchmeyer2956 It isn't that we're near 2 million, it's that with all of the things we've done, and the amount of deaths we do have, 2 million doesn't seem like an unrealistic estimate.
Agreeing with all of her takes after years of educating, I can see why people like Tiffany can be so unappealing for the opposition. Being dismissed as stupid/ignorant even if that is correct when you think you are the one who is right just encourages people to dig their feet in the sand. However, I do not know how 2021 Destiny can remain so calm in the face of these brainlet takes. "I appose the science but actually the science agrees with me :)"
I think Tiffany did that intentionally as a tactic. Tiffany was pulling a Jordan Peterson and playing with the definitions and positions of the medical community. And the panel seemed to not know the specifics but be catching on. Until Tiffany derailed things by making it an emotional conversation about whether or not Tiffany was being unfairly attacked.
Thank you so much for removing the videogame sounds during the debates, no idea if it's because of my past comment or a random coincidence but regardless, feels much better in my ears! :)
Basically the whole reason Destiny hates online lefties. They and Destiny are mostly on the same side, but they make that side look absolutely horrible, which hurts Destiny when he has conversations with conservatives.
@@Jidom_101 until you talk about anything that requires reading books and then Vaush starts making capitalist arguments while claiming to be a socialist lmao
holy shit Tiffany triggered me in this. if you're going to be that abrupt when telling someone to let you finish your statement (on literally the first time they interrupt), you probably shouldn't do the EXACT same thing seconds later. It doesn't matter how objectively stupid Rob's positions are.
@@seren3797 while getting my degree in psychology a lot of people struggled with stats and physiological psychology. At the graduate level for clinical mental health counseling there isn’t as much focus on stats, just being able to evaluate data and assessments we may conduct with future clients. It would be more heavy in the stats if I was doing a research based masters rather than a therapy based one.
@@africanlipplateandbonenose3223 Minds exist and can be studied using the scientific method. The branch of science that studies minds is psychology. Psychology is a science.
Listening to right wingers talk about transgender people and their issues tends to be painful. Edit: I am not saying that all right wingers have painful takes on this topic, but you have to admit that most of the times, it seems that they do.
Totally agreed, but listening to Tiffany argue with them on it is almost worse. She really should be able to make better arguments. It's so frustrating to hear her awful argumentation skills.
Honestly, they all were bad on that topic. And imo Tiffany was the worst. Mainly because while some of the others seemed genuinely ignorant about the specifics. It felt like Tiffany was intentionally misrepresenting so much in an effort to "win" the argument.
@@tianamaycry Yeah, it can also hurt to know that someone is correct but cannot make a good argument for themselves, so they look like they look bad or wrong. It's a good thing Destiny was there.
I never agree with Rob but he had a point with medical insurance and military paying for it. If it's not illness then it shouldn't be treated with the benefits of it being an illness therefore requiring insurance or any form of help paying for the treatment.
@@Ashantia35 the military wastes so much money on stupid toys they never use, the amount of money they may be putting towards trans healthcare is beyond insignificant in comparison. Esp considering less than 1% of the population even identifies as trans. And why does it matter under a private health care system anyway? You are not paying for anyone else under that system. I can see the position being slightly more relevant if the US had universal health care like the rest of the world, but once again the cost would be so insignificant it's not even worth caring
I can't get the image of Jimmy from GTA out of my mind whenever I hear Rob speak. With his opinions, he might as well just be an AI of Jimmy being let loose on the internet.
I shoulda been drunk for this panel so I could suffer through listening to Rob and Tiff. Rob is obsessed with playing word games and Tiff is just so incredibly awkward and cringe. It’s just a whole hour Rob misunderstanding what is meant by gender dysphoria.
LOVE how John moderated this. Although i dont agree with a lot of his views, hes good and moderating and keeping this in control. How many times did Rob switch arms on the desk while talking? Everyone should take a shot when he does that.
The panels of 6+ people are killing me. You end up trying to listen to a debate between 2 people, and then it keeps getting cut off/de railed by the 4 other people and then the debate just never ends properly because of the sheer amount of verbal ass being spewed.
@@ThePFD518 She actively impedes conversation and snipes at people for no reason. She morally grandstands by saying "I haven't finished my point" while interrupting others. Worst of all she interrupts Destiny to make a useless point when she wasn't being addressed. The fact is she is negative to any conversation. At least Rob has the benefit of being so spectacularly stupid I can laugh at him.
@@ThaPinkGuy sure she wasn’t great but rob act so smug do someone who is wrong about everything in this conversation. She may be a negative but rob is way worse
@@ThaPinkGuy I think that Rob was also fairly condescending toward her. Laughing when she was making her point was a huge dick move. Obviously her arguments aren't great and her rhetoric leaves a lot to be desired, but I can't blame anyone for sniping at Rob.
Whenever you hear someone say or imply that biology is a definitive study, you know they have virtually zero knowledge of any types of biological systems. While we observe some things that happen with enough frequency/consistency to operate are though they are truths, a lot of time we actually don't understand the exact mechanisms behind them.
And another thing we can add to how messy biology can be : Intersex people. I would love to ask Rob what gender Intersex folk should be classed as. Its so obvious how messy biology is before we even talk about sex or gender.
@@benstar279 it's not messy. It's pretty straight forward. People keep trying to use fringe cases as rules instead of exceptions. Intersex exists yes, but it's not the "norm"
@@justifano7046 try using your brain a little bit more instead of snap-responding any time you see a familiar argument that you have a canned response to
@@justifano7046 you didnt address anything you just said that intersex is an outlier - which is the case but does not refute anything stated previously
While I commend anyone who goes out of their way to learn more about these things, comments like this show the difference between someone who learns about a science from the ground up, as compared to someone who reads about it in wiki articles to win debates
@@brandonden795 @Wander the Nomad Alright, Link or suggest me what you think worst is. I'm curious. I always felt panel debates were bad because of the amount of people on; but I still watch them because, I like Destiny. The worst one-on-one I've seen has to be, when Destiny debated Sargon on black crime (I think?). It was just Sargon not understanding statistics on loop for two hours. I feel like he was intentionally not understanding. It was a snore, and I turned off the stream.
Things that aren't an illness should still be covered by insurance or public healthcare. Pregnancy and contraception are a couple of examples that come to mind that many people experience and are covered under many of those things (I understand not all, but I think they should be where they're not.)
Well, I'm kind of glad that you posted this. It's better if we use our actual verbal spoken-from-the-mouth words in a debate setting than taking to Twitter and making text wars. Maybe that's been the biggest thing that social media has taken away from us; our ability to communicate openly.
@@bingbung if you knew anything about other fields of medicine, you wouldn't be saying that. Or maybe you consider the entire medical field unscientific, one can't really know what dumbasses on the internet believe these days
@@bingbung I do like to put physics on a pedestal as a hard science and I love it for it, and in the time of Jung I would have agreed with you, but nowadays phycology is as evidence based as is any other science. It's just not a hard science, but a behavioural science like political science, sociology, etc and correctly studied as such. Also don't confuse therapy with the scientific study of psychology.
@@doldol1 my issue is that psychology is almost entirely descriptive. And the only mechanistic explanations come from, you guessed it, other fields such as cell biology and neuroscience. While I agree that psychology is very important, I consider it barely a science.
@@italianwaffle5592 Vaush's video on how enlightened centrists being the most infuriating people to talk to is still my favourite politics video to this day.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 Centrists have normal nuanced opinions like 99% of the population, hence "normies". If you can't appeal to normies then you always gonna seem extreme no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on.
Tiffany came off worse than rob even tho she was correct. Her tone and demeanor going in came off a little hostile from the jump. But I can get it when you're arguing with someone like rob about soemthing related to who you are.
I agree, she made trans people look bad and it was very dissapointing to see. She jumps in while Destiny is making a point only to derail shit with some non sequitur. Its like shut the fuck up, you're being carried by the only guy in the room who breathes this shit, why are you trying to fuck it up lol
Yeah, it seems her style of argumentation is to pick the worst possible argument first, then conflate all the terms you are trying to convince people not to conflate, then contradict yourself 10 minutes later. You'd think someone mired in these types of discussion would be very careful not to conflate sex and gender, or dysphoria and trans people, but she does it over and over again. I can get using the wrong word in a casual discussion, but in this format you need to be ruthlessly specific with your language.
I'm almost through the video and they haven't actually proven Rob wrong yet..... I don't want to come off bigoted, but wouldn't it be easier to classify it as a disorder? I think we should argue the treatment rather than if something's wrong, because something IS wrong. But shouldn't we argue that it's a disorder that we treat by helping their genitals match their personal expression? Rather than argue that nothing is wrong but something needs to be treated.
According to Rob, an illness is anything that requires medical intervention. This definition is mind numbing, if I break any bone, it requires medical intervention. If I get shot or stab it requires medical intervention. But none of these thing are illnesses. It can seem as though no one is proving him wrong or that he is persuasive, but the reason you feel this way is because Rob takes away all nuances and retorts back to how oppressive society views it. It's hard to argue with that bc he is actually fucking stupid, bringing up only 1 point about illness, while everyone else is talking about the science. Unless you want to tell me that science is dumb af compared to Rob you have to concede his view is wrong.
Yea same, I don't see what the problem is with calling it a disorder. I think people are just afraid of the social stigma the words carry like saying someone has an "illness" which is an issue with Mental Health as a whole. When the mind doesn't match the body I don't really know what else to call it other than an mental disorder that can lead to depression. I think everyone is better off by calling it a disorder and that the best treatment to make the person happy is by matching the person's body with how their mind would like to perceive their body. I think another reason the community doesn't like "mental disorder" is that it suggests that the mind has an issue when they would like to argue that the body has the issue. Imo the mind comes long after the body has developed (especially with something as binary as XY XX chromosomes, i.e. your sex at birth) and the mind is very fluid , always changing, and easily influenced. However, that doesn't mean that if the mind has developed and experiences gender dysphoria it cannot decide that the body needs changing to fix it, the mind, who we are, can decide to change their body to resolve it.
@@AvWoN I mean ofc people are scared of the stigma. We live in a society full of stigma, but calling trangenderism a disorder or illness doesn't help either case of getting rid that stigma. You can virtue signal, and be like "what's wrong with having an illness", but we very much live in a society where there is negativity around the word illness and disorder. So unless you want to just attack both of these words further and place them into deeper shit, you shouldn't just label them like that bc it makes you feel more comfortable posing them as abnormal.
So I'd like to respond to you both, so I'll start with tre. I think the argument seems mind numbing because I genuinely think he would consider a cut/stab/wound an illness of the body. Or if it isn't severe enough to warrant intervention then it'd be considered an injury. Another argument I could make is that I'd actually prefer it to be considered a disorder. Because: 1. Could help conservatives get onboard with the need for treatment. 2. Could grant the ability for their surgeries to be covered by most insurance. 3. Could lessen the social stigma around the words "disorder" which could help a couple other cultural problems like drug addiction and depression. Conservatives are just kinda assholes sometimes and I don't think it's useful to argue about what semantic category something falls under, sure you can make the argument that it fends off the idea that being trans is wrong because of the stigma on the word but I don't think conservatives care. They want to stigmatize it so if it comes anywhere close to fitting, they're calling it a disorder. I think it'd just be a better use of time to remove the stigma, disarm the word, rather than argue semantics with people that don't care.
Like I genuinely do hate to be that guy, but it doesn't stop being a disorder just because of the stigma attached to it. And oddly enough you make a great point. A lot of the discourse around gay marriage came from normal people actually saying "what's wrong with being gay" and I genuinely think a lot of the stigma can be removed by having regular joe's hearing someone say it's a mental illness and promptly grilling them on how it's perfectly fine to have a disorder.
Was super excited to watch this but damn it was a shit show. Tiffany started to get annoying, she had some solid points but there were a few times she would have just let destiny do his thing.
Oh you have a cast on? So your infected with “cast”. I know your medical issue is a broken arm, but clearly cast is your current illness. If you disagree then military doesn’t need to pay for a cast, since it’s not a medical illness.
I wouldn't consider it a science as much as I would biology, chemistry, physics, or earth science/geology... But I would never be so confident about it not being a science that I'd ever say that in a debate... It has scientific aspects to it for sure... Fits very well within the "social science" umbrella...
@@kingad8869 Psychiatry isn't the study of the brain... Psychiatry.org for example describes psychiatry as "the branch of medicine focused on the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mental, emotional and behavioral disorders." Meanwhile you also have psychology, which is a bit closer, though still not the study of the brain. Rather, psychology is about the study of the mind (and there's quite a difference there as was described to me in my philosophy of the mind class. Mental states aren't the same as brain states for example, unless you are a believer in identity theory I guess... But typically we do not consider these things the same...) If you want to know the study of the brain, you'd naturally look to neuroscience which involves things like neurochemistry and experimental psychology (which unlike regular psychology, is particularly concerned with how brain states effect the mental states which are what they as psychologists are focused on...) Anyway, main point, you go to a psychiatrist to get a diagnose... A psychologist can diagnose you from a different sort of perspective of the mind... Their methods are quite different though because of how they go about things... You won't get given anxiety medication from a psychologist probably, but you might be able to work through your problems via talk therapy with them... Psychiatrists are going to be more knowledgeable on anti-depressants and the like... Of course, their knowledge may overlap since there's many similarities along with their distinct differences...
I don't understand the "it was losing them money - it was against their bottom dollar" people on the Dr Seuss issue. Books are super inexpensive. I cannot imagine how this would have saved them any money.
People make purchases to support brands all the time. That's why Patreon and GoFundMe are so successful. Simply being associated with a set of ideas will lose you a ton of potential customers. This is the real reason why corporations are always taking stands. Sucks, but this is just capitalism.
When it comes to these panels, moderators could certainly take a page out of John Burk's playbook. Say what you will about his beliefs, but he has probably been one of the best/fairest when it comes to actual moderating & directing the flow of the conversation/debate.
Anytime fat rob needed to wait for even 2 seconds to allow for someone to even utter 1 word I could feel him almost exploding from the desperation of not having heard the sound of his own voice in those 2 seconds
I agree with the dude that arts and history should never be censored, but I also agree with Destiny and others that Amazon has a right to choose what they do and do not sell... So I'm fine with allowing Amazon not to sell that book, but I also think they completely welcome the backlash on themselves with open arms for doing so and I'd encourage the backlash... Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should... Still, although Amazon won't sell the book, it's at least not being banned... When a book gets banned and not at all accessible legally then that's basically where I'd say it is censored, not necessarily if it stops being sold or published... Plenty of books stop being published all the time and we don't call it "censored" all the time... Additionally, in cases like these where it stops being sold by a major retailer, the creator could still reasonably sell his book online on his own... Might be a little more expensive and challenging, but he's free to distribute his own work still... It's just sort of a difficult question really of when things get so hard to access legally that it's effectively censored...
the problem is when Amazon becomes so powerful that their right to not sell something becomes stifling, Amazon will eventually OUTSTRIP the U.S Government in funding, so unless your a fucking libertarian praying for ANCAPistan I'd rethink the libertarian talking points, eventually you will be arguing for a BladeRunner nightmare future.
@@keithfilibeck2390 If you believe in capitalism and the idea of meritocracy, a good enough book probably doesn't need Amazon... Amazon really helps significantly, but I wouldn't say it's necessary if you have a good book, a good website, and good advertising across platforms like Facebook... Again, will take a ton more effort and money, but you gotta spend money to make money as they say and it's possible to succeed in that situation so it's not really censoring... Amazon is not the end all be all, they're just very important... Not so important that they could stop people from getting their hands on a new Game of Thrones book though I'm sure... Of course not everyone can be a George R. R. Martin, but not everyone is that with or without Amazon... Not having Amazon makes it harder, much harder, but not impossible and if the book doesn't do well without Amazon despite great efforts then Amazon probably isn't to blame... You could say the same about Steam basically being the Amazon of new digital video games where tons of people discover and buy new video games (at least until the Epic Games Store) and yet Minecraft didn't need to be on Steam to do become THE most sold video game in history... It didn't even go on a platform that could loosely be called a Steam competitor like Origin or GOG... It had its own website and word of mouth spread of it because it had that much merit to it... And even today when Steam has a tad bit more competition, if a game is on the EGS and not Steam then it's probably going to be pretty rough especially if it's not worth even talking about, but I wouldn't consider art censored just because it has to put up with the same situation Minecraft was tossed in... And there's only a handful of games I know that were able to succeed post-2010 on PC without Steam, but there were some and it was because they were good... Factorio wasn't originally, Guild Wars 2 wasn't (altho they dropped the ball with the development but it attracted much attention), Blizzard Entertainment's various games... If you include free to play there were also various successes like in 2009 League of Legends, along with SMITE until I think somewhat recently when it went on Steam...
@@Spacewith2224 Amazon isn't pushing it just by selling it... If that were the case, they'd be pushing communism, fascism, libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism, satanism, islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, atheism, etc... They'd be "pushing" pro-life and pro-choice simultaneously...
I feel like conversations didn't connect properly, one talks about something but the other doesn't address it or talks about something slightly different.
if i agreed with rob i'd probably watch him, he seems likeable enough we can just see that he's willfully ignorant in real time because we're familiar with the topics at hand
these statements like "conservatives have a problem with listening/reading" really hinders your ability to change someone's mind even if you are 100% correct
Agreed. If your goal is to change people's minds, this will almost never happen when saying stuff like this. To be fair, changing someone's mind to begin with is extremely difficult.
This entire time I was thinking the 2 quiet dudes on the upper side would say something decent but holy shit both just made me want to throw myself into the sun
I think older trans people do identify with sexed terms. It’s definitely the group that identifies with “transsexual” the most, so it’s probably rooted in older psychiatric and psychological terminology than an actual identification with sexed categories
Going from watching other debate panels with moderators like primecayes to this is like fucking night and day. The moderation made this so much more sufferable.
Okay everyone focusing on Rob being a derp and all, true dat, but for a moment can we focus on the fact that John actually runs a really organized and civil panel. Like... I'm not a big fan of conservatives usually but damn. Compared to Prime's panels this was actually... pleasant to watch.... *shudder*
Transgender discussions are too hotly political, its pointless to get into a discussion about it, anyone who even begins to talk about it I just say I don't know shit and my word means nothing, its the only smart play.
@@KingstonHawke no, not "it can feel that way", more like "its better this way", mispeaking on this issue anywhere is dangerous, as certain groups will come at your job for it, even if your completely pro-Trans, a statement or question that is interpreted in a bad way can be your deathknell, I'd rather it NOT be this way, but it is, so walk there of your own peril, I didn't make the subject so nuclear, but I recognize that it is.
@@keithfilibeck2390 You saying "it's pointless" is what I responded to when I said "it can feel that way". Just an exchange of opinions, you don't have to agree with my own, I clearly disagree with yours. But then again, I don't have a 9-5 for anyone to come for. And if I'm hated by a bunch of people who are mad I did a bunch of research and told them my true thoughts then I don't mind being hated by those people anyway.
@@keithfilibeck2390 I talk about trans issue all of the time. I am trans so it is easier, but you don’t need to be trans to talk about this type of thing. Just engage with the research and the experiences of trans people. It can be a bit toxic, but it is fine
@@Spacewith2224 I'll just say, beyond this thread, no, there isn't much point to me doing so, as "getting it wrong" even while trying to be trans positive, is a little too risky, at least currently on the internet.
I was initially not going to post this panel but this specific segment provides context for the next video/debate and Destiny speaks the most here so enjoy.
If you're reading this then you have to like the video, comment and subscribe. Tyty
"6 hours ago" WHY ARE DEPRIVING US OF CONTENT MR EDITOR REEE
The next title for the Rob debate should be “The most trans positive conservative” lmfao
Thanks for the upload editor-san
Ok ok
Fine
Tiffany was way too antagonistic towards the others, eg when she mentions she was rudely interrupted by the brittish guy. She needs to chill and work on her retoric if she wants to become a good debater.
I have sympathy for her though, it’s a very personal topic for her. It’s hard to be objective and argue in calm manner when you feel that opposing arguments are attacks against a fundamental part of your personhood.
@@lobaxx It's just a shame that her manner is going to make people point at her and go "The libs are triggered" or whatever
@@lobaxx You’re completely right. The issue here is that she is just a bad representation of the left here. I can bet no one who disagrees with her was brought around whether that be the debaters or viewers which is ridiculous considering that some of the panelers were brought around after this conversation and they weren’t even insulting her or anything before she made it really heated. First time I agree with everything someone says and yet wished they took a backseat because their rhetoric was far more detrimental to the left.
@@lobaxx its a personal topic to me too but she just is doing more harm than good by engaging in such poor rhetoric, its not hard to be objective about your points unless youre just incapable of controlling your emotions and behaving reasonably, and if that's the case she should stay far away from any discussion as she has shown that she doesnt have the bandwidth to engage in proper discussion
These people literally are calling her and all other trans people mentally ill based on their own chauvinistic interpretations and fears about identity. They’re legitimately delegitimizing the existence of trans people on the basis of their identity, which is far worse than calling a person “stupid.”
It’s just like expecting a black person to have a civil debate with you while you repeatedly call them the N word.
Tiffany was like playing a video game with your little sibling and they just get in the way and die over and over again. I'm glad destiny played nice though
Tiffany was the person who constantly was being told to hold Destiny's beer while he came in to make the arguments she should have been making...
@@RealmRabbit Sounds bad but I kinda wish she talked less, Destiny was on good form
This was the debate equivalent of an escort mission.
@@hugo3627 TRUEEE!!!! FUCKING TRUEEEEEEEE!!!
@@anguishedcarpet fr how you gonna have someone debating who can’t say anything without a google search or even say her Rs lol ?
People like Tiffany hurt their own side so much ugghhh this is hard to watch.
Yea.... Tiffany in this convo comes off incredibly unlikeable whether you agree or not yikes
Yeah... I agree with her but she words her arguments and responds to questions to badly. Even if you look past her being aggressive (which you could easily dismiss as arguing for something close and personal to her) people will ask her a question and she'll answer in a way that doesn't really relate to their questions. In addition her interrupting Destiny to take dumb jabs at people for no reason came off really irritating.
It was frustrating since every time she was given a chance to speak, those arguments end up 'losing water' because she's so poor at delivering them and it leads to people easily dunking her. Even if she's correct, she goes about it in the worst way. Not only that, but her talking takes away from the time other people have to combat the misinformed positions.
In a different format, like if Destiny was allowed to clarify every time she speaks, then it'd be fine. But not in this format.
Is Tiffany trans? She got so incredibly heated during the initial trans segment. Kinda seems like she was taking it personally.
Edit: Never mind about it being the beginning. I had it paused right after it sounded like she was bringing it back to the original topic. So I'm guessing that other video spans this whole discussion.
@@albertjohnston1026
l'm not trans and l'm pretty passionate about trans-related topics.
Tiffany wasted so much time. Every time they start discussing something almost interesting, she would derail the conversation better than even Rob.
I had to stop halfway through because she was frustrating me. I don't know if she's just not practiced enough in discussion, or this format, or what. It was especially aggravating that she kept appealing to "this is what the organizations say", and then failing to elaborate why they say that. Or why that's important. If I'm not mistaken, isn't that flat out fallacious appeal to authority? She wasn't making any cases for what she was saying.
@@joej.3848 "isn't that flat out fallacious appeal to authority?
Yeah, that's why it's important to include the _why_ or the source, _alongside_ the organization's position. There's nothing wrong with deferring to the top expert organizations for a source. She should have been able to explain or go into it, however.
[edit: changed to "position"]
[edit 2: got further in the conversation, her talking points weren't always correct, so that sentence is gone, lmao]
I don't always agree with destiny on topics, but he is honestly the best person to hear these ideas from. Watching people like ben shapiro always seem like they had the answers for things but destiny is the first person that ive heard that really has a counter argument to a lot of these and its always a joy listening to these nuggets.
@@tomol6 5'8 btw
@@soleo2783 What do you mean, destiny is obviously a 6.4 alfa chad 300 pounds of pure kobe beef
@@tomol6 The point of my comment is that he is not that short lol, im 5'9 myself
@@soleo2783
That is a shrimp
@@dutchmeyer2956 bruh, your from an imaginary country called The Netherlands. You might be taller than Americans, but atleast we exist.
Lowkey hating the people who scream "I'm not finished" or "I'm still speaking!!" Cuz every one of them is going to interrupt the very next person who talks
I haven't started watching yet, but I have a good idea of which ones are going to be doing this lol
I did this a while ago with family members. It was propbably very annoying (my family is also very annoying though, so it kind of cnacelled out xD). I adopted Desteny's 'waitwaitwait' tactic a while ago and that works much better =).
Halfblood Princess It sucks when the topic changes, before getting to speak, but it’s a much more respectable approach. The less often we speak, the most intensely they listen when we do. I’d recommend having a few premade answers to popular questions. Use those moments when people actually pay attention to drop info that could actually change minds. Not sure why I just explained my approach to thanksgiving politics, but... lol
Rob linking HCA Virginia is funny considering that this is in their terms of use "WE DO NOT REPRESENT OR WARRANT THAT THE CONTENT OR INFORMATION PROVIDED OR MADE AVAILABLE VIA OUR SERVICES IS ACCURATE, COMPLETE OR CURRENT"
@@eugenebotsman I love watching Destiny shit on conservatives but I cannot stand listening to this man spew out complete fucking bullshit 24/7 like a brick wall and when anyone counter points him he just spouts back to exactly what they countered, he literally doesn't listen.
I wonder what it's like existing in a reality where you have super strong feelings about a preconception you have and are constantly scrambling to find one thing that vaguely sounds like it proves your preconception. And then rolling with it and feeling super confident rather than having literally any intellectual curiosity to go even a little bit further.
@@adrycough fucking horrible. I was a conservitive deep in that hole intill I came out as trans and was treated like shit. Ignorance is bliss intill it effects you
I am from Western Australia, we locked down hard here compared to the rest of Australia. We are back to normal life now. We had an extra 5 day lockdown because a strain got loose but ended up not affecting anyone else so life’s good.
meanwhile, us in florida still got the virus in full force.
and we're probably gonna have another spike now because of spring break.
boy oh boy do i love the united states
@@sadbread2446 Damn that sucks! Wish you and your family all the best. I think we are kinda lucky most people here just followed instructions from the head of the state.
meanwhile victoria locked down for like 7 months
@@jamrollz yup, but we dropped cases from 600+ a day to ZERO.
We also had semi decent stimulus to keep the economy alive during it.
@@jamrollz Now it is closer to a Year of lockdowns lol
A conservative in a Joy Division t-shirt is peak self-unawareness
So you should only like music made by people who agree with your politics?
@@basedcentrist4533 No but that won't stop me laughing at the irony
@@basedcentrist4533 they're lacking in self-awareness just like you
cringe incarnate
@@basedcentrist4533 it would be kinda funny if i started saying left wing stuff in a particular eastern european black metal shirt.
ian curtis was a tory
This was the first debate where I felt like I could hear a lot of diverse opinions. The moderator did a good job of clarifying points and helping to move the discussion
Agree
John may have weird opinions but goddamn is he a good fucking moderator.
Man, conservatives like Rob really are like an NPC. Can only engage with you through a prepared package of dialogue options and when you try to add a new entry or expansion to the dialogue options, the NPC experiences an error and goes back to the same dialogue tree. "I know you defeated my point already about transgenderism vs cross dressing, but let me return to this argument because it's the only lens through which my viewpoint made sense when I was coming up with it on my own." Pathetic
It doesn't help that Tiffany was making god awful arguments that couldn't even convince someone who agrees with her already.
@@tianamaycry She seemed kinda of nervous tbh
For us it’s a difficult process of thinking deeply, consulting evidence, reviewing sources and commentary and then coming to a conclusion, for the, it’s a game of memory and ego. That’s it. You’ll notice how easy it is for conservatives to spit out talking points and deflect and turn the conversation into some kind of labyrinth like it’s their native language. Half the battle or even more is just correcting their mistakes and it’s infuriating.
@@brandonden795 TBH she seemed over confident.
@@tianamaycry Over confident in her opinions but nervous in performance, she literally froze when asked the definition of transgender
“The arts industry” sounded funny to me
Is it really an industry though? lol
@@sharsasuke01 Thats the meme
@@sharsasuke01 thats why it sounds funny to him
You spelled neo-nazi industry wrong
@@sharsasuke01 It is an industry. It's a category of production, and distribution. Though there are areas that don't fit that guys idea of absolutely no censorship like illustration which is highly censored.
I'm actually really thankful for Rob here. He's very openly admitting if transgenders didn't have gender dysphoria, then that it wouldn't be a mental illness, but that he simply thinks all transgender people have gender dysphoria. Because of that, he's simply clumping that together, but really he's only referring to Gender Dysphoria.
It's just a matter of nudging him along where he can see that not all transgender people have gender dysphoria.
Then he talked one on one to destiny afterwards and got blown the fuck out of the water
@@maddyc2412 I have to say that destiny was just as rediculus as him not that shes completely wrong but shes rediculously similar too Rob on almost every level except opinion
@@eliaskline5649 How was Destiny just as ridiculous?
@@Stardust_Lily I used the wrong name the chick not destiny
@@eliaskline5649 Tiffany
“In a do nothing scenario they said the US would have 2 million deaths and the UK would have 500k, they’ve been widely discredited”
“That doesn’t seem to be that far off”
“That’s not what I’m saying”
It's that slimy JLP thing where if it isn't an exact quote of you, it's a complete mischaracterisation and a lie. Primecayes also does it, which sucks because he's actually a chill dude.
@@e.d.5766 easier to accuse someone of being bad faith than confronting your mistake :/
We are nowhere near 2 million.
@@e.d.5766 I felt the exact same way about Prime.
@@dutchmeyer2956 It isn't that we're near 2 million, it's that with all of the things we've done, and the amount of deaths we do have, 2 million doesn't seem like an unrealistic estimate.
Agreeing with all of her takes after years of educating, I can see why people like Tiffany can be so unappealing for the opposition. Being dismissed as stupid/ignorant even if that is correct when you think you are the one who is right just encourages people to dig their feet in the sand.
However, I do not know how 2021 Destiny can remain so calm in the face of these brainlet takes. "I appose the science but actually the science agrees with me :)"
I think Tiffany did that intentionally as a tactic. Tiffany was pulling a Jordan Peterson and playing with the definitions and positions of the medical community. And the panel seemed to not know the specifics but be catching on. Until Tiffany derailed things by making it an emotional conversation about whether or not Tiffany was being unfairly attacked.
Sitting in Australia listening to people still debating lockdowns is hilarious.
Feels good to be the envy of the world.
Wow, the haters. Some call you asshole, others brought stupid arguments but I applaud your country for keeping the disaster under control.
@@brandonzero07 heaters gonna heat
Nerd
Did Australia do lock downs?
Thank you so much for removing the videogame sounds during the debates, no idea if it's because of my past comment or a random coincidence but regardless, feels much better in my ears! :)
Person 1: I agree with destiny...
Person 2: yeah I also agree with Destiny.
Rob Noerr: I agree with person 1.
Rob's forced laughter is the stuff the ninth circle of hell is made of
Oh God Rob Noer is here. Cringe incoming
Sure you say that, but what about BLM?
Yeah, it’s going to be tough
@Cosmic Cycler boy did he lmao
@@jamesmontalbano Or Pelosi or Feinstein
@Cosmic Cycler delivered? There weren't enough condoms.
I’m sorry but Tiffany hurt Destiny’s side so much. Like she’s ridiculously awful at arguing, damn. “Conservatives are just wrong” nice argument.
Basically the whole reason Destiny hates online lefties. They and Destiny are mostly on the same side, but they make that side look absolutely horrible, which hurts Destiny when he has conversations with conservatives.
@@WanderTheNomad still think the destiny and vaush duo is easily the best vs any conservative
@@Jidom_101 until you talk about anything that requires reading books and then Vaush starts making capitalist arguments while claiming to be a socialist lmao
destinys analogys was pretty on point this debate
holy shit Tiffany triggered me in this. if you're going to be that abrupt when telling someone to let you finish your statement (on literally the first time they interrupt), you probably shouldn't do the EXACT same thing seconds later. It doesn't matter how objectively stupid Rob's positions are.
I can't hear Rob without hearing Jimmy from GTA V
god Tiffany almost convinced me against her position just by how antagonistic she was being
Freal
Oh man....starting with psychiatry isn’t a science...
@@seren3797 while getting my degree in psychology a lot of people struggled with stats and physiological psychology. At the graduate level for clinical mental health counseling there isn’t as much focus on stats, just being able to evaluate data and assessments we may conduct with future clients. It would be more heavy in the stats if I was doing a research based masters rather than a therapy based one.
People who deny the legitimacy of psychology/psychiatry are always prime examples of conditions described by these sciences
@AMellowFellow yes lol
@@wisetrollman yeah pretty much
@@africanlipplateandbonenose3223 Minds exist and can be studied using the scientific method. The branch of science that studies minds is psychology. Psychology is a science.
“...But let’s spice it up a little...”
Oh no Rob, oh no.
no uncle rob, dont take off your pants again!
Listening to right wingers talk about transgender people and their issues tends to be painful.
Edit: I am not saying that all right wingers have painful takes on this topic, but you have to admit that most of the times, it seems that they do.
Totally agreed, but listening to Tiffany argue with them on it is almost worse. She really should be able to make better arguments. It's so frustrating to hear her awful argumentation skills.
If I want to get a perspective that loosely based on reality or current scientific understanding I can talk to my 90 year old grandmother.
Honestly, they all were bad on that topic. And imo Tiffany was the worst. Mainly because while some of the others seemed genuinely ignorant about the specifics. It felt like Tiffany was intentionally misrepresenting so much in an effort to "win" the argument.
What was your stance on transgendered people 12 years ago?
@@tianamaycry Yeah, it can also hurt to know that someone is correct but cannot make a good argument for themselves, so they look like they look bad or wrong. It's a good thing Destiny was there.
Should be entertaining 🍷🥴🥃
Mmm... Yes, quite...
nope, very unintersting unfortunately. hopefully next time will be better
But it wasn't.
Rob literally just cares about whether he pays to improve lives or not, he has no other politics
I never agree with Rob but he had a point with medical insurance and military paying for it. If it's not illness then it shouldn't be treated with the benefits of it being an illness therefore requiring insurance or any form of help paying for the treatment.
@@Ashantia35 the military wastes so much money on stupid toys they never use, the amount of money they may be putting towards trans healthcare is beyond insignificant in comparison. Esp considering less than 1% of the population even identifies as trans. And why does it matter under a private health care system anyway? You are not paying for anyone else under that system. I can see the position being slightly more relevant if the US had universal health care like the rest of the world, but once again the cost would be so insignificant it's not even worth caring
@@lostmagicdude888 not all forms of theft are bad
I can't get the image of Jimmy from GTA out of my mind whenever I hear Rob speak. With his opinions, he might as well just be an AI of Jimmy being let loose on the internet.
@@MegaFireGate when is theft not wrong?
The moment John said he takes from Breitbart I lost faith in anything he was going to say.
"CNN, Breitbart, and Fox"
All 3 of those sources are pretty dogshit
CNN is easily the best of them. Shrug.
@@wandarah Which says a lot
@@wandarah
No it isn’t
the moment you only singled out breitbart i lost faith in anything you were going to say
This guy was a fantastic moderator, great change of pace from people like Dylan
Tiffany failed to make sense on anything. Nice
Just cause u don’t agree, doesn’t mean shes wrong, or doesn’t make sense.
Almost everything she said was correct. Wtf are you talking about?
@Constitutionalist Monarchist disagree
I failed you all, I wasn't able to have a good sandwich today :(
It's okay, we forgive you.
Hey that's ok there's always tomorrow. We fail so that we can learn from our mistakes, and make better sandwiches from them :)
happens to the best of us
as i stated before bacon wrapped grilled cheese sandwhich..
We all fail sometimes, its human!
I shoulda been drunk for this panel so I could suffer through listening to Rob and Tiff. Rob is obsessed with playing word games and Tiff is just so incredibly awkward and cringe. It’s just a whole hour Rob misunderstanding what is meant by gender dysphoria.
LOVE how John moderated this. Although i dont agree with a lot of his views, hes good and moderating and keeping this in control. How many times did Rob switch arms on the desk while talking? Everyone should take a shot when he does that.
The panels of 6+ people are killing me. You end up trying to listen to a debate between 2 people, and then it keeps getting cut off/de railed by the 4 other people and then the debate just never ends properly because of the sheer amount of verbal ass being spewed.
"Psychology is not a science"
Me who has been studying in psychology for years: *confused*
Wow, Tiffany actually managed to be more insufferable than Rob. I'm genuinely impressed.
NYESSSSS
At least Tiffany believes in science. Based off that she is less insufferable than rob
@@ThePFD518 She actively impedes conversation and snipes at people for no reason. She morally grandstands by saying "I haven't finished my point" while interrupting others. Worst of all she interrupts Destiny to make a useless point when she wasn't being addressed.
The fact is she is negative to any conversation. At least Rob has the benefit of being so spectacularly stupid I can laugh at him.
@@ThaPinkGuy sure she wasn’t great but rob act so smug do someone who is wrong about everything in this conversation. She may be a negative but rob is way worse
@@ThaPinkGuy I think that Rob was also fairly condescending toward her. Laughing when she was making her point was a huge dick move. Obviously her arguments aren't great and her rhetoric leaves a lot to be desired, but I can't blame anyone for sniping at Rob.
39:40 - psychology is soft science, biology is a hard science
hard science related 2 what???
Whenever you hear someone say or imply that biology is a definitive study, you know they have virtually zero knowledge of any types of biological systems. While we observe some things that happen with enough frequency/consistency to operate are though they are truths, a lot of time we actually don't understand the exact mechanisms behind them.
And another thing we can add to how messy biology can be : Intersex people. I would love to ask Rob what gender Intersex folk should be classed as. Its so obvious how messy biology is before we even talk about sex or gender.
@@benstar279 it's not messy.
It's pretty straight forward.
People keep trying to use fringe cases as rules instead of exceptions.
Intersex exists yes, but it's not the "norm"
@@justifano7046 try using your brain a little bit more instead of snap-responding any time you see a familiar argument that you have a canned response to
@@mal1cious_ so you disagree with what I've said?
Or are you just replying with "canned responses"?
@@justifano7046 you didnt address anything you just said that intersex is an outlier - which is the case but does not refute anything stated previously
I love the casual mention of Breitbart as a news source comparable to Fox and CNN. You have to be daft to even approach it like that, come on.
Ikr just slipped that in their..
I mean, you say that: but what would be the pinnacle of alternative media? Only few I could think of might be Rebel Media, or Project Veritas.
You appear to be daft.
@@percilenis8464 BEcause... what?
Watch out ‘percil’ watches Ben Shapiro guys chillll
Drunk debate drinking game: Drink each time someone says "REAL QUICK"
you my friend are trying to get someone killed lmao
"do we know how RNA reads DNA and makes proteins?" destiny don't talk about biology
While I commend anyone who goes out of their way to learn more about these things, comments like this show the difference between someone who learns about a science from the ground up, as compared to someone who reads about it in wiki articles to win debates
Every time Rob can't back up his crazy position he resorts to claiming some Democrat/liberal conspiracy. Every. Single. Time.
It feels like Tiffany does not know the answer to many of Robs questions and just try to stumble towards an answer in real time.
Could be because Rob interrupts every third word anyone says, so it's impossible to give him an answer + he's pretty dumb
@@mattantXD nah. I just think she's does not have the strongest arguments and need to clarify then to herself.
Yeah, I’m LGBT
Liberty, Guns, Beer, and Trump
But seriously, what the fuck is the point of a drinking panel
Watching this live, I gotta say: This was easily the worst panel I've watched
You're blessed if this is the worst panel
I personally feel like some of Destiny's one-on-one conversations with people were way more painful.
@@brandonden795 @Wander the Nomad Alright, Link or suggest me what you think worst is. I'm curious.
I always felt panel debates were bad because of the amount of people on; but I still watch them because, I like Destiny. The worst one-on-one I've seen has to be, when Destiny debated Sargon on black crime (I think?). It was just Sargon not understanding statistics on loop for two hours. I feel like he was intentionally not understanding. It was a snore, and I turned off the stream.
Why does this feel like every group discussion in my online class combines into one?
Things that aren't an illness should still be covered by insurance or public healthcare. Pregnancy and contraception are a couple of examples that come to mind that many people experience and are covered under many of those things (I understand not all, but I think they should be where they're not.)
Pregnancy is an illness
Well, I'm kind of glad that you posted this. It's better if we use our actual verbal spoken-from-the-mouth words in a debate setting than taking to Twitter and making text wars. Maybe that's been the biggest thing that social media has taken away from us; our ability to communicate openly.
I really want to hear Tiffany say “THE DEPARTED”
Amazon should ban all books because no one reads books anymore
Books are based
I think that guy that said psychiatry isn’t a science watched Bones a little too much.
It is barely one.
@@bingbung if you knew anything about other fields of medicine, you wouldn't be saying that. Or maybe you consider the entire medical field unscientific, one can't really know what dumbasses on the internet believe these days
@@kazzz2765 I do biomedical research....
@@bingbung I do like to put physics on a pedestal as a hard science and I love it for it, and in the time of Jung I would have agreed with you, but nowadays phycology is as evidence based as is any other science. It's just not a hard science, but a behavioural science like political science, sociology, etc and correctly studied as such. Also don't confuse therapy with the scientific study of psychology.
@@doldol1 my issue is that psychology is almost entirely descriptive. And the only mechanistic explanations come from, you guessed it, other fields such as cell biology and neuroscience. While I agree that psychology is very important, I consider it barely a science.
“Psychiatry isn’t real”
psychiatrists are real and valid 😤
True
Fabulous cant wait to not turn up to work on Thursday 😂
He's got a point.
@@robertwienhold6520 What point exactly?
It's right in my feed? Is that what I'm supposed to say?
You nailed it. Now you need some algorithm rng and you’ll be rolling in Internet points in no time
Good job bro
You did a meme!
You get bonus points for puting more E's in feeeeeeeeed.
thank you for bringing up my state Victoria
I'd like to see Destiny debate Centrists.
There's nothing to debate.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 because they don't hold any real opinions lmaoaoaoaa
@@italianwaffle5592 Vaush's video on how enlightened centrists being the most infuriating people to talk to is still my favourite politics video to this day.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 Centrists have normal nuanced opinions like 99% of the population, hence "normies". If you can't appeal to normies then you always gonna seem extreme no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on.
He can debate me and we can discuss grilling and the benefits of a mixed economic system.
Psychology and sociology have a chronic problem with reproducibility. Biology rarely has this. They're both technical interpretive science though
Îts definetly a problem in Biology aswell, just not on the same scale
@@WireSpry i dont think rarely is a good qualifier because it sure happens way more than you think
People in these conversations are so brain dead it’s like why even bother
Bro I live in Sydney I have been in lockdown for a total of 2 months and since September 2019 we've had 4 cases within 50km of me TOTAL
actually a good moderator ngl
Wtf is that ending. I've never been blue balled so hard in my life... I need more and it needs to go right in my feeeeeed
Tiffany came off worse than rob even tho she was correct. Her tone and demeanor going in came off a little hostile from the jump. But I can get it when you're arguing with someone like rob about soemthing related to who you are.
I agree, she made trans people look bad and it was very dissapointing to see. She jumps in while Destiny is making a point only to derail shit with some non sequitur. Its like shut the fuck up, you're being carried by the only guy in the room who breathes this shit, why are you trying to fuck it up lol
Also her take that we shouldn't sell things that don't align with current scholarship is extremely shortsighted and stupid in my opinion.
@@seanmac1793 TRUE, I completely forgot that part
Yeah, it seems her style of argumentation is to pick the worst possible argument first, then conflate all the terms you are trying to convince people not to conflate, then contradict yourself 10 minutes later.
You'd think someone mired in these types of discussion would be very careful not to conflate sex and gender, or dysphoria and trans people, but she does it over and over again.
I can get using the wrong word in a casual discussion, but in this format you need to be ruthlessly specific with your language.
Tiffany wasn't correct though.
Good video
I'm almost through the video and they haven't actually proven Rob wrong yet..... I don't want to come off bigoted, but wouldn't it be easier to classify it as a disorder? I think we should argue the treatment rather than if something's wrong, because something IS wrong. But shouldn't we argue that it's a disorder that we treat by helping their genitals match their personal expression? Rather than argue that nothing is wrong but something needs to be treated.
According to Rob, an illness is anything that requires medical intervention. This definition is mind numbing, if I break any bone, it requires medical intervention. If I get shot or stab it requires medical intervention. But none of these thing are illnesses. It can seem as though no one is proving him wrong or that he is persuasive, but the reason you feel this way is because Rob takes away all nuances and retorts back to how oppressive society views it. It's hard to argue with that bc he is actually fucking stupid, bringing up only 1 point about illness, while everyone else is talking about the science. Unless you want to tell me that science is dumb af compared to Rob you have to concede his view is wrong.
Yea same, I don't see what the problem is with calling it a disorder. I think people are just afraid of the social stigma the words carry like saying someone has an "illness" which is an issue with Mental Health as a whole. When the mind doesn't match the body I don't really know what else to call it other than an mental disorder that can lead to depression. I think everyone is better off by calling it a disorder and that the best treatment to make the person happy is by matching the person's body with how their mind would like to perceive their body.
I think another reason the community doesn't like "mental disorder" is that it suggests that the mind has an issue when they would like to argue that the body has the issue. Imo the mind comes long after the body has developed (especially with something as binary as XY XX chromosomes, i.e. your sex at birth) and the mind is very fluid , always changing, and easily influenced. However, that doesn't mean that if the mind has developed and experiences gender dysphoria it cannot decide that the body needs changing to fix it, the mind, who we are, can decide to change their body to resolve it.
@@AvWoN I mean ofc people are scared of the stigma. We live in a society full of stigma, but calling trangenderism a disorder or illness doesn't help either case of getting rid that stigma. You can virtue signal, and be like "what's wrong with having an illness", but we very much live in a society where there is negativity around the word illness and disorder. So unless you want to just attack both of these words further and place them into deeper shit, you shouldn't just label them like that bc it makes you feel more comfortable posing them as abnormal.
So I'd like to respond to you both, so I'll start with tre.
I think the argument seems mind numbing because I genuinely think he would consider a cut/stab/wound an illness of the body. Or if it isn't severe enough to warrant intervention then it'd be considered an injury. Another argument I could make is that I'd actually prefer it to be considered a disorder. Because:
1. Could help conservatives get onboard with the need for treatment.
2. Could grant the ability for their surgeries to be covered by most insurance.
3. Could lessen the social stigma around the words "disorder" which could help a couple other cultural problems like drug addiction and depression.
Conservatives are just kinda assholes sometimes and I don't think it's useful to argue about what semantic category something falls under, sure you can make the argument that it fends off the idea that being trans is wrong because of the stigma on the word but I don't think conservatives care. They want to stigmatize it so if it comes anywhere close to fitting, they're calling it a disorder. I think it'd just be a better use of time to remove the stigma, disarm the word, rather than argue semantics with people that don't care.
Like I genuinely do hate to be that guy, but it doesn't stop being a disorder just because of the stigma attached to it. And oddly enough you make a great point. A lot of the discourse around gay marriage came from normal people actually saying "what's wrong with being gay" and I genuinely think a lot of the stigma can be removed by having regular joe's hearing someone say it's a mental illness and promptly grilling them on how it's perfectly fine to have a disorder.
Was super excited to watch this but damn it was a shit show. Tiffany started to get annoying, she had some solid points but there were a few times she would have just let destiny do his thing.
I sympathize with Tiffany but she has a hard time coming up with great arguments.
She gives me a headache almost as much as rob.
Fucking hurts whenever she speaks
She’s really bad for this
The meeting of the minds. And by that I mean the Host and Destiny.
Nvm i take it back host kinda dumb too
I'm drunk now and understood every word he said. ❤
You can still type so drink a shot🍻
@@tobias7001 ill take a shot to this. In my dreams 😉
That "Art Industry" guy sounds like a literal fucking alien.
This host is Trainwrecks-lite.
I broke my arm and need a cast.
Hopefully one day I can get over this illness that required medical intervention.
Oh you have a cast on? So your infected with “cast”. I know your medical issue is a broken arm, but clearly cast is your current illness. If you disagree then military doesn’t need to pay for a cast, since it’s not a medical illness.
*clicks video*
"Psychiatry isn't a science."
..oh boy
I wouldn't consider it a science as much as I would biology, chemistry, physics, or earth science/geology... But I would never be so confident about it not being a science that I'd ever say that in a debate... It has scientific aspects to it for sure... Fits very well within the "social science" umbrella...
@@RealmRabbit the study of the brain is less of a science than the study of the body??
@@kingad8869 Psychiatry isn't the study of the brain... Psychiatry.org for example describes psychiatry as "the branch of medicine focused on the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of mental, emotional and behavioral disorders."
Meanwhile you also have psychology, which is a bit closer, though still not the study of the brain. Rather, psychology is about the study of the mind (and there's quite a difference there as was described to me in my philosophy of the mind class. Mental states aren't the same as brain states for example, unless you are a believer in identity theory I guess... But typically we do not consider these things the same...)
If you want to know the study of the brain, you'd naturally look to neuroscience which involves things like neurochemistry and experimental psychology (which unlike regular psychology, is particularly concerned with how brain states effect the mental states which are what they as psychologists are focused on...)
Anyway, main point, you go to a psychiatrist to get a diagnose... A psychologist can diagnose you from a different sort of perspective of the mind... Their methods are quite different though because of how they go about things... You won't get given anxiety medication from a psychologist probably, but you might be able to work through your problems via talk therapy with them... Psychiatrists are going to be more knowledgeable on anti-depressants and the like... Of course, their knowledge may overlap since there's many similarities along with their distinct differences...
Oh hey the editor picked it up right where I closed the stream, thanks bro.
I don't understand the "it was losing them money - it was against their bottom dollar" people on the Dr Seuss issue. Books are super inexpensive. I cannot imagine how this would have saved them any money.
People make purchases to support brands all the time. That's why Patreon and GoFundMe are so successful. Simply being associated with a set of ideas will lose you a ton of potential customers. This is the real reason why corporations are always taking stands. Sucks, but this is just capitalism.
When it comes to these panels, moderators could certainly take a page out of John Burk's playbook. Say what you will about his beliefs, but he has probably been one of the best/fairest when it comes to actual moderating & directing the flow of the conversation/debate.
Based AF.
I love that bit when Destiny quietly says "sir, yes sir," BEYTAH!
Anytime fat rob needed to wait for even 2 seconds to allow for someone to even utter 1 word I could feel him almost exploding from the desperation of not having heard the sound of his own voice in those 2 seconds
Commenting for the algorithm
I agree with the dude that arts and history should never be censored, but I also agree with Destiny and others that Amazon has a right to choose what they do and do not sell... So I'm fine with allowing Amazon not to sell that book, but I also think they completely welcome the backlash on themselves with open arms for doing so and I'd encourage the backlash... Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should... Still, although Amazon won't sell the book, it's at least not being banned... When a book gets banned and not at all accessible legally then that's basically where I'd say it is censored, not necessarily if it stops being sold or published... Plenty of books stop being published all the time and we don't call it "censored" all the time... Additionally, in cases like these where it stops being sold by a major retailer, the creator could still reasonably sell his book online on his own... Might be a little more expensive and challenging, but he's free to distribute his own work still...
It's just sort of a difficult question really of when things get so hard to access legally that it's effectively censored...
the problem is when Amazon becomes so powerful that their right to not sell something becomes stifling, Amazon will eventually OUTSTRIP the U.S Government in funding, so unless your a fucking libertarian praying for ANCAPistan I'd rethink the libertarian talking points, eventually you will be arguing for a BladeRunner nightmare future.
@@keithfilibeck2390 If you believe in capitalism and the idea of meritocracy, a good enough book probably doesn't need Amazon... Amazon really helps significantly, but I wouldn't say it's necessary if you have a good book, a good website, and good advertising across platforms like Facebook... Again, will take a ton more effort and money, but you gotta spend money to make money as they say and it's possible to succeed in that situation so it's not really censoring... Amazon is not the end all be all, they're just very important... Not so important that they could stop people from getting their hands on a new Game of Thrones book though I'm sure... Of course not everyone can be a George R. R. Martin, but not everyone is that with or without Amazon... Not having Amazon makes it harder, much harder, but not impossible and if the book doesn't do well without Amazon despite great efforts then Amazon probably isn't to blame...
You could say the same about Steam basically being the Amazon of new digital video games where tons of people discover and buy new video games (at least until the Epic Games Store) and yet Minecraft didn't need to be on Steam to do become THE most sold video game in history... It didn't even go on a platform that could loosely be called a Steam competitor like Origin or GOG... It had its own website and word of mouth spread of it because it had that much merit to it... And even today when Steam has a tad bit more competition, if a game is on the EGS and not Steam then it's probably going to be pretty rough especially if it's not worth even talking about, but I wouldn't consider art censored just because it has to put up with the same situation Minecraft was tossed in... And there's only a handful of games I know that were able to succeed post-2010 on PC without Steam, but there were some and it was because they were good... Factorio wasn't originally, Guild Wars 2 wasn't (altho they dropped the ball with the development but it attracted much attention), Blizzard Entertainment's various games... If you include free to play there were also various successes like in 2009 League of Legends, along with SMITE until I think somewhat recently when it went on Steam...
Pushing anti lgbtq propaganda isn’t something we should accept.
@@Spacewith2224 Amazon isn't pushing it just by selling it... If that were the case, they'd be pushing communism, fascism, libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism, satanism, islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, atheism, etc... They'd be "pushing" pro-life and pro-choice simultaneously...
@@RealmRabbit I don’t mean Amazon, I mean the people who produce those books. But yeah Amazon shouldn’t platform hate.
Thank you for your very reasonable covid takes - from a public health professional.
Rob: We're on the side of science!
Destiny: Your position is contrary on the biggest health organisations in the world...
Turned2ash: _shits himself_
I feel like conversations didn't connect properly, one talks about something but the other doesn't address it or talks about something slightly different.
Does rob get real viewers or does everyone just shit on him?
Rob is an appealing conservative
if i agreed with rob i'd probably watch him, he seems likeable enough we can just see that he's willfully ignorant in real time because we're familiar with the topics at hand
I have tried to watch this video 3 times already but can't stand Robs nonsense.
I stopped 4 minutes in, again, so maybe another time...
The fact he felt the need to have an American Flag behind him to make sure he was American says everything to me
"oh yeah" I got a good laugh out of that
these statements like "conservatives have a problem with listening/reading" really hinders your ability to change someone's mind even if you are 100% correct
Agreed. If your goal is to change people's minds, this will almost never happen when saying stuff like this. To be fair, changing someone's mind to begin with is extremely difficult.
Good thing she's not 100% correct.
I was hoping someone jumped in on the arm argument, that does seem to be a contraindication with the interferes with day to day life.
Destiny? That sounds like someone who debated conservatives on a drinking panel
This entire time I was thinking the 2 quiet dudes on the upper side would say something decent but holy shit both just made me want to throw myself into the sun
Wait. Transwomen don't actually identify with the category female, do they?
Does anyone identify with their sex? Not really so it doesn't matter
I think older trans people do identify with sexed terms. It’s definitely the group that identifies with “transsexual” the most, so it’s probably rooted in older psychiatric and psychological terminology than an actual identification with sexed categories
@@Wyrdangus yeah like I assume most people these days wouldn't go around saying "nice to meet you I have a penis"
@@d_clan_ Of course people do
They certainly don’t identify as cis woman, but they’d probably choose ‘female’ on their job application
Fuck I read the comment... The contract is binding, and now I have to comment. F#$%
I comment for the algorithm. Bonus meme: there is no bonus meme
Going from watching other debate panels with moderators like primecayes to this is like fucking night and day. The moderation made this so much more sufferable.
here's my comment for the algorithm: Destiny is a girl name
LMAO
*nonbinary
Okay everyone focusing on Rob being a derp and all, true dat, but for a moment can we focus on the fact that John actually runs a really organized and civil panel. Like... I'm not a big fan of conservatives usually but damn. Compared to Prime's panels this was actually... pleasant to watch.... *shudder*
Yeah, prime does a pretty horrible job moderating
Transgender discussions are too hotly political, its pointless to get into a discussion about it, anyone who even begins to talk about it I just say I don't know shit and my word means nothing, its the only smart play.
It can feel that way at times. But I still want to give it a try. Feel like a lot of good can be done.
@@KingstonHawke no, not "it can feel that way", more like "its better this way", mispeaking on this issue anywhere is dangerous, as certain groups will come at your job for it, even if your completely pro-Trans, a statement or question that is interpreted in a bad way can be your deathknell, I'd rather it NOT be this way, but it is, so walk there of your own peril, I didn't make the subject so nuclear, but I recognize that it is.
@@keithfilibeck2390 You saying "it's pointless" is what I responded to when I said "it can feel that way". Just an exchange of opinions, you don't have to agree with my own, I clearly disagree with yours. But then again, I don't have a 9-5 for anyone to come for. And if I'm hated by a bunch of people who are mad I did a bunch of research and told them my true thoughts then I don't mind being hated by those people anyway.
@@keithfilibeck2390 I talk about trans issue all of the time. I am trans so it is easier, but you don’t need to be trans to talk about this type of thing. Just engage with the research and the experiences of trans people.
It can be a bit toxic, but it is fine
@@Spacewith2224 I'll just say, beyond this thread, no, there isn't much point to me doing so, as "getting it wrong" even while trying to be trans positive, is a little too risky, at least currently on the internet.
Rob is what we call a manual breather..
That girl is the biggest NPC of them all
4:34 "literally no one is going to disagree with you"
*Laughs in media coverage of Florida*