The Part Of Ignition System Set-Up Everyone Neglects - Universal To All Distributor Style Ignitions
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2022
- Checking and correcting phasing issues between the distributor cap and it's rotor should be considered an essential part of blueprinting your ignition system. Here's why this is important and how you can check to see if yours is indexed correctly.
#classiccar #tuneup #ignition
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A friend found a 74 dodge charger se recently. I had it up and running in a day and a half. Thanks too your videos. He was amazed, he asked me how i knew about old dodges. I told him uncle Tony taught me..thanks uncle Tony.
Where else are you going to get this info in an accurate and understandable way. Never stop Brother
You would not believe how GREAT the timing of me seeing this was. 1965 mustang with an after market ignition. You nailed my issue. Thank you.
As a manufacturing/process engineer I like to think of systems like this that have lots of mating pieces like an onion. Confirm each layer, every detail, then go to the next layer. Or in this case, the next mating surface/interface. Great video, I love learning about old cars from you 👍🏻
My Kawasaki KLR650 factory service manual section on rebuilding the transmission says pay attention to the mating dogs on the gears
I saw this issue once when a friend broke his distributor cap on a GM small block. A buddy gave him a cap off an Accel distributor that had the locating tang in a different spot. Same issue you had. I've also seen the vacuum advance play a part in this scenario. I've checked rotor orientation by drilling holes in a spare cap between the coil wire and #1 plug wire and slotting them out so a timing light can be used to witness where the rotor is in relation to the cap posts. Having a cap like this with spare wires makes it a simple check.
"No valuable lesson is ever learned the easy way" so true. Thanks UTG for the great video content & advice.
UT you consistently bring content that I don't find anywhere else. Yet, the debt of your knowledgeable never ceases to amaze me... time after time.
oh yes, the Garage door springs in smogger unit. Takes alot to get that moving. FBO plate and little springs is the way to go.
One time, my timing belt tensioner loosened up and the belt came off. After looking on the net, I saw a 50/50 chance the 86 Volvo B230F 2.3 4 cylinder was interference/non interference. So I hand cranked it, fingers crossed, and there was no interference. When I set the timing and fired it up, I was jumping for joy and shouting "woooohoo"! It's crazy how hard it is to get reliable info from people online.
Tony is a true diamond in the rough! And yeah, I had changed the timing belt myself years prior, it was all my fault. I learned a lot from that mistake that luckily only cost me a slight panic and a few hours getting more familiar with my car.
Good on ya for keeping the intermediate shaft timed! It likes to jump out of time with the slightest touch.
Albert Einstein, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemmingway, Mozart, all looked like rag bags most of the time. It’s part of the genius personality. You don’t look any more homeless than usual.
Own it Uncle Tony, you’re eccentric!
Back in 1984 when I bought my 1970 340 Dart Swinger the previous owner gave me a BIG box of Prestolite caps, rotors, points, condensers and coils. All real new old stock Prestolite brand. I have been running a Direct Connection electronic system since I bought the car but have all that NOS stuff and the original 340 Prestolite dual point distributor set aside.
Sorry I don't understand what your getting at ? You have all these parts that go to a distributor that has been replaced by one that is different so much so that you cant use use any of it . Set aside for what ?
Have a 71 Dodge D-100 318 2-barrel to play with now that I'm retired. Always wrenched my own vehicles and kept them running ok. Years since I've worked on points and carburated vehicles and I never new much about the workings of carbs and distributors. Thanks for all the knowledge you share. Maybe I'll be able to figure out why I can't get the old truck running.
The first thing I do when I buy a GM HEI - is pull the Hei module and replace it with a Genuine MSD item, even on the supposedly 'Good' genuine GM ones. Another advantage of the big cap is less voltage arc between the terminals or 'Corona' effect
Tried your suggestion of fish tank valve as carb adjustment aid. Works good. So I took that idea and applied it to my vacuum advance on a 400 ford with a stuck distributor. Rattling like hell from too much advance. Even with premium fuel. You helped me fix a problem that I've been fighting since I owned it. For 50 cents.
forgot to put the attachment on my wahl trimmer a few times! gave myself a half a stache in about a quarter of a second ! thanks Tony & Kathy
I have to admit I've done it and watch my personality fall off of my face onto the floor. Sad 😥
As the owner of a 1994 ob1 honda civic that still runs a distributor. Which i think was the peck of this old skool tech. Thanks uncle tony
Did the same thing with the lefthand side if my mostach with my aleepy head not noticing the guard was not on it. Haven't ever heard her laugh that hard!
Mopar AL, is that YOU!!???
To make a phasing cap, cut open top of old distributor cap to see rotor to cap terminal alignment. Magnetic feel should line up with cap terminal.
Didn't gm or Ford used to sell a clear transparent distributor cap back in the 80's-90's??!
Uncle Tony with racing stripes! Nothing wrong with that look. I think it suits you wel.
Thank you Uncle Tony! Great info! sometimes it’s the smallest details that make the biggest difference. 👍
Now this was great info. My clips are hard the clip, I will have to check my phasing. Doesn't run bad but sometimes it's hard to start and I don't feel like I can get the timing just right.
Tony I challenge you to drill a 1/2" hole in your dist cap as described/grab your timing light & see what mechanical and or vac advance does or does not do to your rotor phasing as you rev the engine. Robert
I had this problem years ago, every time I put a load on the motor it did the same and 3 distributors later the problem was fix and to this day I could not tell you what the problem was and you explained it well. Thanks for this episode, I could have never explained this or put 2 in 2 together.
same here! I think Tony might have just fixed a problem I've been dealing with for a very long time now! I've replaced everything except for the distributor because I figured it was brand new and didn't want to spend another couple hundred dollars but after all it is made in China!
I know a distributor specialist and he always says bring me an old oem junk one and not a brand new chinese one. Food for toughts.
@@rustybritches6747 good luck 👍
UGT, HEI came out in 1972. The large diameter cap was a greater distance to prevent cross fire between the next adjacent cylinder.
Nobody talks about spark plug wire spray. 1 cup House hold ammonia, 1/2 cup of salt, 4 tps. of vinegar or lemon juice, fill qt spray bottle balance with water. Spray on the plug wires & plugs to see voltage leakage due to bad insulation of carbon tracking.
DK, ASE master since 1978.
HEI was available on some GM cars as an option in 1974
The bushing in the block below the distributor drive bull gear can cause distributor issues also if it is worn.
God bless this man. Uncle Tony is my new favorite RUclipsr.
Make a phasing cap from an old HEI distributor cap and adjust vacuum advance with reluctor wheel & pick up module, you'll feel magnetic attraction then adjust vacuum canister so that rotor lines up with cap terminal. Best to do with distributor out of engine. Easy as that. Might have to elongate mounting screws
Uncle Tony I needed a new alternator for my 1992 F150. Went to the auto parts store and the guy behind the counter was older gentleman. I told him what I needed and he looked up the part and asked me you want the one with 1 year warranty or the one with the lifetime. I said the lifetime. He said it would be here that afternoon and yes I gave him the bad one for core exchange for the 10 dollars off the price. I called them up around 4 pm they said they just got there. Went to pick it up around 5pm. A young man brought out the part and opened the box. He said does this alternator look right. I said no. The pulley was for a V-belt and the wires where messed up. I got a refund but now I have no old alternator. If you want a Ford remanufactured alternator you need the old one to remove the pulley and fan which I no longer have for it went back with the delivery truck. The box was right but the party wasn't. I finally found one online from Rock Auto that was OEM and it has the fan and the 6 rib pulley for a serpentine belt and also the proper electrical ports for my factory wire harness. It's crazy what you have go through to get the right parts for an older vehicle these days.
I've been a Mopar guy for a lot of years and you impress me! Thank you Tony
The odd fire Buick HEI cap has really unique terminals in the cap. The wires are evenly spaced but the terminals make up for it.
Isnt the even fire strange too? Looks like a 8cyl missing two terminals on top but inside underneath there are bussbars added to some posts making it even 60 degs apart.
@@edmundanderson657 I am not sure. Now that I think about it I may be remembering the 229 Chevy which was semi odd fire. You may be spot on. My even fires Buicks had coil packs.
The information Uncle Tony provides is like the Holy Grail. We benefit from his experience as he cuts through mysterious legacy ignition problems. Indexing the rotor to the cap is a technique I'd never heard of before. On Pommy cars I work on, we usually statically time the distributor with a light then dynamically time with a strobe. The caps are notched for security. Wear in the shaft is a problem so on 50+ age cars, a new dizzy is an investment. Just love old school cars.
Thanks so much for this video. I don't think I've ever heard anyone discussed this before. I will certainly be checking my distributor later today
thanks for the lesson Uncle T ! really appreciate that you share your knowledge with that kind of clarity ! Peace !
I bought a doner dart to do a v8 swap to my valiant.
The pickup coil retainer broke, and allowed the little coil go very close to the reluctor.
It behaved like a chevy with a flat exhaust cam lobe.
Backfiring under load.
Had the valve covers off ..
Made me scratch my 16 year old head for a while😮
I just took the clippers to my whiskers today. But I used horse clippers. They have a lot more power.
Good info. on distributors Tony.
I love this channel. I thought I knew a lot about distributors but yet again Tony teaches me something I had not known (or even thought of). Also, love the term 'parts cannon'. haha
My friend has been having this same issue with his roadrunner. I'll take this information to him. Thanks
I had always figured the GM HEI caps were so big just to make room for the coil to sit on top.
Actually it was increased distance between plug terminals to keep from jumping spark. Tested output was using the "ST125" spark tester as standard minimum spark was 25,000kV. That is what a large cap that allowed room to place the coil on top. Plus output resistance was reduced as direct thru the secondary circuit into the rotor, then plug terminals. The corrosion that built over time was "Ionized Nitrogen w/oxygen". The base of the distributor was vented as they then put fan-type blades on the bottom of the rotor. GM implemented HEI in 1972, not 1976. But UTG is not a GM guy. I was working on everything including imports, but later, received tons of GM training at Buick. As they moved into 3 coil packs. Cam sensor goes bad, the ECM would trigger of last know power stroke twice and watch for RPM increase. Then move to next pair, then next. It have a 1 in 3 chance of getting the firing order correct. Extended crank, sometimes a back fire, but started. This was developed as Buick invented "Sequential Fuel Injection" as used on the Grand National. Now all vehicles have to use it for misfire detection I. D.
DK. ASE master since 1978.
My favorite channel ever. Volvo owner here. 2000 volvo s80 t6
66 122s wagon here.
79 242.
72 164
One sleepy morning I forgot I had pulled the guard off my beard trimmer to trim up some stragglers the day before. I start with the mustache and then rest. Well buzz and I feel the wiskers cascading down my bare chest and I'm looking at myself in the mirror with half a mustache. Well shit! In for a penny in for a pound, so I shaved off the whole works. My son was two and my daughter four at the time and they had never seen me clean shaven. Scared the hell out of them when a strange man walked into the living room. Son wouldn't come near me for a day.
Reminds me of the magnum engines when the distributor drive bushing and drive gear would wear out. They ran good at idle but would misfire under load or higher RPM.
I got a 360,had been driving, something seemed weak. Somebody had the short button in a large cap. That is why it was eating the ignition module they were paying stupid for.
You're the shit, Unc. It's good to have someone to bounce problems off.
A friend of mine Co=Op ed in Highschool. Auto, the man he worked for did all in house. Nothing swapped, or outsourced, he fixed what rolled in with what it rolled in with. These times are back, but their is a lot of Automatic trans. going to have to be altered from disposable, to rock crusher, somehow.
Tony, I'm your age and I've also been working on cars since I was 15. I had no idea that the amount of additional mechanical advance needed by the smog era tune was why GM and Ford went to the larger cap. It's not often that you teach me something about GM stuff, but there ya go - you did it today.
Sure, that's why all of the distributor ignitions released after CCC in 1981 returned to the small diameter caps. The big cap HEI hung around for a few years with fixed advance, but that was a bean counter thing.
@@UncleTonysGarage I thought big caps were to stop crossfire. larger diameter means larger circumference .so same degree rotation moves rotor further than small diameter? Have a look at my other post. No offence.
No offence taken, Joe.
My question is, why did all later CCC HEI ignitions incorporate a standard diameter cap if the goal was to stop crossfire? Same coil (external mounted) same voltage, same wires and plugs...but smaller diameter.
@@UncleTonysGarage no idea , that was a guess. We had the big caps here for a couple of years ,I presumed to make room for wider rotor on computer controlled dists?
@@UncleTonysGarage gm big cap design to work with plug gaps up to .080.small cap returned when gaps Went back to .045 and less.(crossfire less likely). Good video.
Thanks again. I grew up working on older cars but stopped working on them over 20 years and forgot.
I really learn from your videos. Thank you🤙🏽
Kick ass I just learned a lot makes sense about the gap in the post I've never thought of that
Tony, I had an odd experience years ago. I bought an '85 F-150 300 six 3 speed truck, driving it home it was ok in town. On the highway about 3 mi home it wouldn't go over 40. Got home and first thing I did was go to look at the carb, when I went to take off the air cleaner the whole carb tilted! Tightened the card down, took it back out and she ran great!
I bought an S10 one time with the TBI 4.3 , I always make a habit of rebuilding the injector pods, they need rebuilt from time to time like a carb, I pulled the TBI unit off and not only did someone have the injectors in backwards so the top wouldn't seat down so they just JB welded it, but it also didnt have a base to manifold gasket.. you could see the carbon build up on the top of the intake so I knew I didnt drop it when I took it off..LOL ran a million times better after I fixed everything.
I got a cool story about a tune up, 2000 something 305 Chevy truck. I am riding to AutoZone with the guy for moral support I guess cause he was doing the tune up, I was just along for the ride, when we get there they get us distributor cap and rotor button, it's not the big "high top hat" one this is a little one like Chryslers or points/condenser Chevies had back on the day and a rotor button. I always compare parts to see the differences, cheap generic vs. factory, color, make sure it'll fit, it's just something always do. Someone had put there old one back in the box, might have returned it and got their money back? Who knows, it was on the shelf like a new part, but. I hand it back to the salesman, "I already have a used one, I need a new one!", Rotor button was used too! I couldn't believe it, they not supposed to take returned electric stuff as a rule. It was in worse shape then our. Old one. Who would have thought that me comparing parts would save us a trip to parts store. I ain't downing AutoZone, it could have happened any parts store. AutoZone has saved me lots of money with their low price parts, they were as amazed as we were ....
47 years ago I took my then wife to the hospital to deliver our son.
I went home to clean up and made an attempt to trim my beard and did such a bad job I ended up shaving.
I walked in later to visit and she didn't recognize me. I'd always had the beard and still do.
I just did a tune on mu 74 Catalina and the rotor rocked at least 10 degrees.
POS.
Well, that may well explain a problem I had with my 60's Big Block chevy quarter mile runs in the middle 1980's. Thought I new how to pull and set the distributor quite well. I didn't, but now I do. Thanks for the insight.
This episode is kinda crazy, I was going to Email you about this exact issue I fixed for a guy and his Nissan D21, They had the cap 180' out and it barely connected, Enough room a spark could start going through the plastic walling and burnt into the other point Contact. The only reason it would run and drive was because it was firing the exhaust plugs when it should have been igniting the intake plugs(8 plugs/wires on a D21 4 cyl). Got it fixed and timed properly and it runs like a top!!
I have an 1984 720 pickup and yep, those engines and components can be a pain to troubleshoot. Mine seems to be out of time no matter what I do.
Something I've seen is that the contact on the rotor is not long enough creating a gap between the rotor contact and the posts in the cap.
Some I have measured to be 0.095", that is 3 times the spark plug gap.
Unfortunately it is difficult to measure as the cap and rotor need to be in place.
I cut a piece out of a old cap to see inside while it is assembled.
echlin has a rotor with a .060" )iirc) longer blade. MO3000
Thank You Tony!
also I smooth the ID of the reluctor with some fine sandpaper so that it will slide easier on/off the shaft, some are very tight
I had this exact problem ,didn't figure it out until I bought a clear hei cap noticed the fazing was off bad distributor, put a old stock hei in same cap perfect ,you have amazing videos uncle tony..
I wrenched professionally for many years . Like your videos especially the performance stuff.
I've seen lots of guys ignore setting up their ignition timing correctly. They set initial and let the distributor do whatever it wants to do. One guy had an engine that was a total dog. Come to find out the distributor mechanical advance was frozen, so initial timing was all he had. A new distributor with *LIGHT* advance springs and it felt like he had double the power!
Great video! Thanks for the info
I miss your videos Uncle Tony. I bet you are busy. Less videos per week than before. No problem. Just noticeable. Keep on please. All good. Chuck in Florida.
I have had issues with the tip contact riveted on the rotor backwards. Square end inward. Rounded end outward. The gap to the cap terminals were so far away the arc would jump upward and cause burning on the machined surfaces.
Geez, Tony, You clean up real nice!
That story reminds me of a advanced auto grey replacement points distributor cap for a 1974 Chevy 250 L6 it was a standard ignition products brand and tightened down but not so tight you crack the cap it would move almost a 1/4 of a turn, obviously the truck ran like crap. I tested it by using the factory corroded cap the was cracked on the top between the points coil wire and the number 6 plug and it ran somewhat better,so I was at a local junkyard in highschool and I was getting a extra 250 points distributor and got it home and realized it had a brand new ac Delco points cap and coil, swapped out the cap problem solved,I kept the standard ignition points distributor cap for several years and showed a few people that they needed to watch out for them, honestly they don't even seem to make those anymore it was around 96-97,, and even the factory cracked and corroded terminals cap misfired but with the standard ignition products grey replacement cap it was undrivable it would not stay running it cut out so bad motor was given to me by my uncle and had 64, miles. Anyways I was thinking when I started watching your video and you talked about indexing the distributor cap and that can allow the timing to be just enough off that not one but two spark plug wires on the cap seems like it is the wrong firing order even if you check the firing order and it is right,where the rotor is in relation to the terminal inside the cap is not.
That was a good catch! The short lived ignition components caused by being partially out of phase is a good point, too. Big gap drives up the voltage that everything in the high voltage circuit experiences before current flow begins and drops the voltage.
Thanks.
Great video! Thanks!
Hello from New Zealand. The issues you were having with the car in that story closely resembles the issues im having with the 302 cleveland in my falcon. Will definitely be checking the dizzy out next weekend i think
I enjoy your videos. Thanks for sharing.
Owned a 57 ford pickup with a completely rebuilt 223 bored out .040 converted from single barrel to 4 barrel holley. For all of the 20 years I owned it and tuned, re-tuned it between myself and different mechanics from racing shops to major car repair centers there was always this irregular miss at idle and anytime and at any speed. I was told I needed to have a dyno performed. Sold it to a mechanic and when he passed by one time I didn't even hear the truck because it ran smoothly. Called him to ask what he did and he said he performed a standard tuneup with plugs, wires, points, condenser, cap, rotor replacement. All of these parts were replaced many times over the years along with several electric fuel pumps and filters. Go figure.
Money video...for someone more familiar with diesels. This is why Tony's my Uncle. I'm gonna replay this a few times, and index the timing on Sparky the Yota.
i have really enjoyed your videos they are a wealth of knowledge to me i thank you
I've applied your distributor tips to my Toronado before. The old HEI convert system that came with the car croaked. It was similar to how the one in the video is.l setup. So I got a cheap HEI. HEI Modules died 2 times. Got a MSD 6AL box (wanted for other reasons.) Then the HEI started running like hell then died. The entire distributor had gotten so much play in it over not even a year. I got a new MSD distributor for it. I can't wait until my starter is here. Your videos have helped me out so much. I always just can't wait to apply it to my cars / my buddies.
Very cool thanks
Great video as usual , thanks alot
the dist does not need to be in the eng to check phasing. On the bench line up a reluctor tooth with the magnet & at that point make a sharpie mark on the side of the dist where the rotor is then replace the cap and make another sharpie mark on the side of the dist where the closest plug wire terminal is on the cap. this is where it is now & it will remain there until the vac advance starts to kick in.
" If you're gonna go a little bit ,you might as well go all the way" so true UT
I sub to like 200 channels but this one is my favorite.
Excellent.
Uncle Tony thanks
Good one! I never thought of that.
Wow, good stuff. Even I learned something.
The little tidbits of information that you add during these videos are invaluable!
Hey your the man for the job . Add nitromethane to a water/alcohol injection add on .
Super valuable content
this is a great video- i have heard of doing this but never knew how to do it or why. Now im going to check mine today! Thank you for a great video and be careful with that razor.
I think I am having an aneurysm over here😆🤣😂
I haven’t laughed that hard in a few years, and to be completely honest without joking around, The last time I laughed this hard was your fire ball story.
Closest to a parts cannon ive had is my 74 ('65) 413 swapped power wagon
The reason it isn't a parts cannon is everything ive replaced has been oos or broken
Crazy part is it has never not ran, just continued to run better till i popped the trans, got a new transmission built this time.
I recently had this problem on a Hudson Hornet. The replacement vacuum advance had a different length arm and moved the points plate so that it fired between towers. I had to cut and drill the vacuum advance arm to get the points plate in the right spot. It's not easy to find problems like that
My 360 is doing this NOW!!!!! I'll check it out
read my posts
We had a issue on a 1989 Chevy C1500 where it did something similar. It cracked the magnet on the distributor causing the pick up to read incorrectly. We replaced everything in the ignition system up to that point except the distributor as a assembly, but still had issues. We replaced the whole distributor and it ran fine.
echlin has a rotor (MO3000) with a longer blade (.060" iirc) that will reduce the gap & help with phasing issues
I know you have your reasons, but I still miss your live shows.
I did that with the hair clippers once. Needless to say i sported a Brush cut for awhile.
OMG I have been dealing with a misfire in my 67 vw bug and I replaced everything Aswell and still runs like crap 2k and up, I wonder if my distributor is possibly bent and causing my rough running. I will defiantly look at it thanks for all your knowledge
About to order cap and rotor for my Mallory and read that MSD bought them out and made in China caps now are problematic with cap alighnment with rotor and need to open slot to set it right Thanks Unk
on a v8 the spark plug wires are 45 degrees apart. that's 90 degrees of crank if you're running 40-50 degrees advance thats little room before cross firing. have enlarged the screw oles on many a distributor to get things all lined up. loved those clear caps been a long time since i seen one though
Again..you. awake. My. Memory... back. In. The. Old. Days. When. I. Was. Learning. Alot. And. needed. To...... a. Rule. Of. Thumb. Even. Though. There. May. Not. Be. One. For. This........... was. Plugs. Wires. Cap. Rotor..condenser. and points.... oh. My. Did. I. Say. Points.....yes. way. Back. In. The. 70.s. the. Rule. Of. Thumb... was. Those. Things. Would. Cure. Running. Rough.... or. A. Miss.... 99. Outta. 100. Times....... thanks. Man... have. A. Nice. Day......
I had an issue in my old '73 Chevy stepside where it stumbled at 2250rpm.
Didn't matter if you nailed the pedal or ran up to speed gradually.
It ended up being the flat spring that puts tension on the points arm. It was so weak because it had a crack.
Frustrating, but once discovered, I always bought Blue Streak points instead of cheap ones.
Jesus dude, I’ve been messing with cars since I was in my early teens and I’m in mid forties now, never thought to set the distributor/timing up like that?! I always lined everything up off 0°
That’d make the initial startup and breaking in a cam that much easier, plus less strain on the ignition system. So simple.
I genuinely got something outta that, I’ll see ya tomorrow 😉
Bend the tangs so there's more pressure from the bottom of the cap to the top of the Rotor...had this same problem on my Ford...351w slight gap from the Cap to the top the Distributor still ran fine but over 3500 ran like shit...stupid 5 cent Tang I think I'll go to a Mallory Bolt on Cap thanks but iv been down this road before but good info peace
If you power the coil and set the crank at your desired btdc spec and then turn distributor housing until a spark comes out number one plug wire your all set. Or if your sure your on number one spark out of coil is good enough. When the engine is running you will have to re adjust initial timing it always changes a bit.. been doing it that way for 40 years. Starts every time.
When I got out of the Army, in 1981. I bought a 1975 Fury unmarked cop car. From a friend who bought it at auction then blew the trans. Got a junkyard one. Out of a Fury station wagon. I never could get it to run right. Now in 2022 I watch RUclips and have a flashback to swearing at the distributor cap snaps. FUCK!😃
Good tips