THREE Warhammer Miniatures for the Price of One! But is this Stealing?!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2021
- THREE Warhammer Miniatures for the price of one, but is this stealing?! Games Workshop Warhammer sprues often come with loads of extra bits to customise your models, but what happens to all the unused bits? In this video I used one Mordor Troll kit from the Middle Earth SBG range (and my Elegoo Mars 3D printer) to make THREE using spares off the sprue, but does this count as stealing? I discuss my thoughts on this in the video.
Mordor Troll Body on Thingiverse: www.thingiverse.com/thing:373...
🔴 Support me on Patreon: / benjishobbies
🔵 Element Games Affiliate: elementgames.co.uk/?d=10503
🐦 Tweet me: @benjishobbies
📸 Follow me on Instagram: benjis_hobbies 
Развлечения
Games Workshop seeing this vid:
“Thief, thief, thief! Benji! We hates it, we hates it, we hates it forever!”
Still my favourite comment on this video 😂
You didn't steal anything from anyone... you made something yourself using the tools you had. You don't owe GW or any company your subservience. Their business model is not a moral imperative.
You bought the contents of the box and can do with them as you wish
Its not a debate what you can do whit the extra parts tho, it’s a debate about buying copy’s of that, also, the argument you can do whatever you want whit what you bought argument, let’s say I buy a book, then scan in every page of the book and start selling it to people, is that ok? Since I’m allowed to do whatever I want whit what I bought,
Its not stealing in my mind. Its making the most of the kit.
However, if you cast the original troll body and try to sell it, THAT is stealing
Love the vid by the way
It’s such a difficult one to judge - it’s all very grey (much like my backlog...)
I have made castings of miniatures that I own in the past to get the most out of GW kits and that IS perfectly legal, so is a GW store telling me I can't use them in a tournament. Selling the figures I cast for which I do not own the rights to, such as a custom sculpt or open source 3d printing however is HIGHLY illegal.
This is exactly the point.
GW right now are desperate to kill the legitimate 3D printing of NON GW products because they know that selling $4 worth of injection molded plastic for $120 is not going to work post pandemic
@@RifterBitch Actually it probably will... not as much perhaps but still people will buy the kits.
Agreed
If you’d made the bodies from green stuff or milliput would you feel the same? GW got their pound of flesh IMO.
It’s a point I do mention briefly in the video - I wouldn’t have any issues with sculpting my own bodies, but essentially the outcome is exactly the same!
@@BenjisHobbies Wait till you experiment with or just hear about photogrammetry LOL. Buy the first model, photograph it, and end up with a 3D Model you can reproduce yourself.
@@PewpewFiah
I know people who have done that to make epic scale minatures by scanning the full 28mm minatures.
You have been loyal to several companies / individuals through purchasing their products and supplies. You have then added your own creative twist and ingenuity. What you have done is at the very heart of the hobby - support and creativity. And you have avoided waste by up cycling parts. Your morals are exemplary. Keep up the good morals (and work). :)
Thanks so much for your kind words, Dean! 😁
Ok, here's how I feel. My Imperial Guard infantry are kitbashed from Anvil Industry and Victoria models, with a few Cadian bits from GW. That's not stealing, the Anvil and Victoria bits aren't copies of GW miniatures, they're alternatives.
Same with your troll bodies. They're not copies of GW models, they're alternatives.
What you did was a fun and creative kitbash. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it!
I can agree whit this,
I’ve seen people use the spare contents of this box with the Three Trolls from the Hobbit
It's not stealing at all, well, it shouldn't feel like stealing I should say. This is just part of the new reality, we have access to so many different methods of fabricating parts now that it's not just those with specialist equipment and/or skills that can make what they really want/need. Having said that, there are many 3d sculpts out there now that are 95% copies of various miniatures, that just feels a little too close to the mark for me, but otherwise if you are printing parts that enhance or extend your hobby, well, I think that's a wonderful thing!
It very much is part of the new reality! I bought my printer originally to print off parts that I couldn’t otherwise buy, but I’ve come to realise that there are so many opportunities with it, and the ever-growing number of digital sculptors and amazing files out there make it all the more valuable.
I made a new body out of tinfoil and green stuff for the metal ent kit, because you get extra arms and a head. Considering the kits hard to get hold of now and expensive, I didn't want it to go to waste.
That’s a great idea! I have several ent kits so may just borrow this idea 😉
Really enjoyed this video. The trolls looked fantastic in the end! I don't think printing extra bodies is an issue at all personally. You purchased their kit and are just getting the most out of it, not really much different than hand sculpting and using their bits as well.
Exactly! The logical part of my brain tells me that, but somehow it feels different when I’m not sculpting them myself!
@@BenjisHobbies Totally get it - Either way they look great and it would be really difficult for anyone to tell they are not official - not that helps calm that part of the mind at all though!
@@BenjisHobbies - Would you feel that way if someone else sculpted the bodies and gave them to you? Or if you bought them from someone else? Or if you found a $1 toy at a thrift store or dollar store and used it as a base?... If none of those are "stealing" then how is this?
You didn't buy one troll from GW. You bought a bunch of parts. What you do with those parts (outside of making exact copies and distributing them) has no moral relation back to GW once you paid the money. Think about it. What is the difference between this and any other kitbash with those parts? The only difference is that you kitbashed another ogre instead of something else for your army. Either way you'd be using the bits to avoid paying GW any more money. IP laws are pretty morally suspect to begin with. And you aren't even close to breaking them, because those bodies are nowhere near exact copies. They're generic, and less detailed, and could be literally any kind of monstrous body. You're feeling guilty for no reason. Stop it!... Lol
Discovered your channel through the 15minutes per day challenge, the quality of your videos are amazing!
Keep up the great work, looking forward to more videos. Definite sub
Thank you so much! These sorts of comments make all the hard work worth it 😊 There’s plenty more to come soon, so watch this space!
Great video bud. Those trolls look ace! I know what you mean about the moral dilemma. I’ve got plenty of models that are unofficial sculpts for some popular characters, all done without the right licenses. The way I see it, I just like painting fun stuff.
Thanks buddy! It also struck me that I might not be as bothered if it was an IP that I don’t really care about. It’s such a weird grey area! And these were really fun to paint 😊
Those trolls definitely skipped leg day. I think that’s a fair trade!
Hahaha! They definitely did! They could take some lessons from the drummer troll 😂
I did this but I brought a cheaper branded troll a reaper bones troll to add the spare parts to make another troll.
What a great idea! I might have to give that a go!
@@BenjisHobbies Reaper bones mountain troll is the one I opted to use,it's roughly the same size as the middle earth trolls by GW.
Those trolls looked heaps good
Thanks buddy!
As long as a miniature is not the same as the one you are proxying I do not see a problem.
Nope, not the same! A roughly similar shape and dimensions, but that’s about it 😊
Benji, YOU ARE THE MAN! Great video my dude.
I have the same 3D printed models standing around next to my screen as I write this. Great video Ben!
Thank you! I’d love to see what you do with yours!
Great channel, superb production value, personality and pacing. I hope the channel will take off soon!
Thank you so much for your kind words! Comments like this make all the work worth it 😊
Maybe print the body 5-10% larger and that might fix the chicken leg effect
Great vid
In hindsight that might have fixed it! However proportionally the body would have been even bigger 😅 I’ve still got some spare troll bits so might experiment with them.
If there for your own personal collection I don't see any issues.. it's like making custom figures which I do of my own concepts of existing characters. I think it only falls into a grey area when you decide to profit from them and sell... But at the same time you're making your own unique pieces with you're choice of paint sculpting and the way you put them together and that falls under art. other than that enjoy your art and Hobby you shouldn't feel bothered about any of it... Just my opinion 😁 👍🏽👍🏽
Zero intention to sell or make money off these, so no danger there! And thanks for your thoughtful insight on the matter 😊
Nicely done.
Thanks Thomas!
Might be less detail, but at least it don't have those bruuuutal mold lines! Think they turned out just fine!
It’s pretty brutal down the sides where the two halves meet! I think tooling has definitely moved on since this one was designed.
One troll definitely skipped leg day
He’s definitely a gym Bro - loves working on his chest and arms. Legs? Not so much…
quick question what type of resin curer do you use?
It’s the Elegoo Marcury 😊
Sweet video bud 😁 GW be like "ThAts IlLeGaL, pAy MoRe!!!" 😂
I'm all for this as having those extra parts like you said is wasteful, generally I would've found it difficult to tell they weren't official models unless I took some time to look at their pencil legs.
Great video!
Thanks buddy! And yes, all the plastic ‘bits’ feels so wasteful!
@@BenjisHobbies You could argue that if GW reduced the options/waste, it could bring prices down :D :D :D
Very cool video !
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it 😊
GW kits are including so many spare parts it feels almost wasteful not to use printed or dare I say casted/3rd party bodies at this point. I mean don't get me wrong, the minute they release plastic spare torsos and legs and nothing else on the sprue I'll be the first one buying them, but that not being the case makes it just weird and like I said, wasteful. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but it is very much in the back of my head so far seeing my "bits box" and what little use it gets...
GW could rack a fortune if they would only bring back the old Mail Order option of them olden days .. where you could mail order the bitzz you wanted.....
That would be amazing! But given the number of bits and the rate of growth of GW I don’t think it would be possible any more!
I did something similar but made a mold of the body then made a (hollow) body out of green stuff
Sounds good! And has the same result 😊
@@BenjisHobbies yeah probably a bit more expensive in materials but I don't have a printer haha
They’re for your own private use so I think it’s fine. The whole realm of 3D printing models is something that GW and other companies will have to address at some point but for now it’s really cool seeing the different ways it has been used in the hobby.
They look great btw!
Thank you 😊 I don’t think we’re quite there yet but I absolutely agree that manufacturers will have to face in to it sooner rather than later.
@@BenjisHobbies tbh I don’t even really know what the best approach would be for the big companies re. 3D printing. Sell the files?
It's an ethical and moral minefield. I did something similar with some Alpha Legion minis. Printed the bodies and used my bits box to build them out but it just didn't sit right with me.
On the other hand, I've got a Carnosaur that I made by lopping the head from a t-rex toy and gluing the spare head on.
If you're playing among friends or at clubs, nobody will care - especially if it's painted and is clearly representing the model. Tournaments are a sticking point but frankly that's not an issue for most people right now 😂
It’s a strange feeling isn’t it 😅 When I was scripting this video I found it very difficulty to get to a final conclusion (and I didn’t manage it anyway) but I can’t really explain why it feels ‘wrong’. Perhaps we are too attached to the aesthetic/IP.
@@BenjisHobbies there was a discussion on the Paint Bravely podcast recently about the same topic. The conclusion I've sort of come to is that if I was to swap a body or legs on a mini, everything else needed to be "official" as they are the largest parts of a model.
Changing more than one piece seems to make it "fake" in my head.
Nice video Ben. My brother is wanting to buy a printer, would you recommend the one you've got?
I’d definitely recommend Elegoo as a brand. It’s been so simple to use and, not that I’ve needed it, their customer service is meant to be excellent. Mine is the basic Elegoo Mars, but there’s the Mars 2 and Pro available now however I’ve been VERY happy with the quality of prints that have come off mine, so I can only imagine that you’d see an improvement with the newer versions.
The only real question isn't whether or not it is moral to print those bodies but whether or not you can use the other two in official GW sanctioned games.
Great video as usual. I have a question though, which microphone and camera do you use?
Thank you 😊 I’m using both a Canon M6 MkII and a Canon M100 depending on the shot. Microphone wise I’m just using a cheap unbranded one.
@@BenjisHobbies Thanks.
I think that the lack of detail is more due to limitations, that body design is probably older and for older printers that lacked a lot of the detail the current resin ones have available.
It's also not stealing there, the printed ones were their own sculpt there. Even printing a complete troll that someone designed isn't stealing unless it's a direct copy of a kit there.
Same with a lot of 3rd party kits, as long as they aren't recasting models from someone else to sell as their own, it's something I don't mind.
Only issue comes with some tournament legalities...but there's arguments there about it as well.
Hello, Games Workshop here,
You'll be hearing from my lawyers.
You are allowed to print as many copies as you want of models that you have bought. So to me there is no moral grey area here.
My issue isn’t around printing files that I’be bought, it’s more that I bought one model but have ended up with three.
@@BenjisHobbies Or did you buy 3 models, but GW didn't include 2 of the bodies? :)
Nice progression in the video. And yeah it really is a gray area.
Thank you! I’m still not entirely sure what to think 😅
As someone who sculpts a lot of my own minis and has scratch sculpted my own trolls I would say there's no ethical difference between sculpting and 3d printing.
Both are just supplementing your materials for what is, essentially, kitbashing. Neither are really any different to including pieces from different ranges or sets
Great video and interesting range of views already in the comments. I’m not entirely sure where I stand. For me, if the 3D printed bodies were different poses perhaps rather than seemingly close copies, that might have had a moral compass bearing. Clearly 3D printers are going to become better and cheaper and thus the issues around usage are going to come more into focus. One thought; suspect the two ‘additional’ trolls would be fine in most ME SBG tournaments; what do you think though about GW hosted tournaments? Both models have many original GW parts and if the bodies had been sculpted that would have been fine. Maybe a non-question however.
Thank you Michael! I think both you and I are from the ‘support your Hobbit Hobby’ generation of the game so we tend to be a little more protective of MESBG. Now that I’m in some other communities for GW games I don’t see the same level of love or dedication so perhaps this would be more ‘acceptable’ in other circles. I don’t think I would use these in any Games Workshop hosted tournament, but it would be interesting to get an official ruling on it!
What a fantastic result! Especially like the Isengard troll, but they all look great. Compared to the GW body those bodies are definitely sub par, but a bit of green stuffing sees them right (as you've proved). They provide a great base to sculpt into though.
I'm still undecided as to if I just want to magnetise my plastic troll. I think it will be fun in a Mr potato head kind of way (and no moral dilemma to worry about). Still I'm not overly worried about this solution. It's just the realities of the time. I wonder how long it will be before GW start releasing STL files 🤔
Thanks for your kind words! I do wonder how long it will be too - I’m sure that there are some people somewhere in Nottingham that have a plan in the works. It’s not quite there yet but I think 3D printing could definitely be a disruptive technology for miniature manufacturers.
Nice video! Your thoughts have most likely been the impetus behind mono pose models i.e no extra parts means less lost profit to reuse. I agree however with your point on if you had sculpted the bodies yourself, it would feel less like stealing. It would effectively be the same outcome for the kit maker and thats why I would say 3D printing the parts is no different.
The resin trolls definitely skipped leg day lol. Awesome to use the extra bits in the kit rather then sitting in the bits box for eternity, it's always bugged me that GW doesn't sell bodies and bitz kits
The way I see it printing a full copy of a warhammer model, specifically the races and parts they designed is stealling but printing off a generic piece like a troll body is fine. Even printing a whole troll army would be fine in my book so long as it's more generic troll than, trolls of moredor. If you get what I mean.
It’s not stealing, it’s GW’s own fault for being cheap. They started to make one kit for the different trolls. If they don’t want people to use the left over parts they should just make different kits for each troll. You pay for the extra parts, you should be able to use the, as you see fit.
With 3D printing becoming more available, I think GW could use projects like this to fill gaps in their market. Offering 3D files for OOP minis, or sold as an upgrade item like for this set. Hell they could even include a discount code in the troll box to print 2 extra GW official troll bodies or to order upgrade parts. Remember back in the early 2000s GW used to sell individual sprue and metal components on mail order for conversions and such.
I would totally print two extra troll bodies if I had a 3D printer, then use the money I would have saved to buy another kit anyway.
I think that’s a great idea, and I have no doubt they have people already thinking about this sort of stuff.
I’m amazed at how quickly resin printing has become relatively commonplace, and I can definitely see a big increase in 3D printing over the next 5-10 years.
A thing that games workshop could possibly do is include a unique code that gives you access for a reasonable price to a file for the stuff you need spare bits for from a set , ofc there is the risk of it being pirated but then they would at least have very clear legal rights, personally I think 3d printing adds more to the hobby then it loses revenue, ofc it can get expensive at times with all the models and paints tools and what not but in the end it is a hobby not really something we absolutely need to survive, so for me 3d printing is ok as long as you don't advertise the prints as official if they aren't (not sure if there are any official prints as I'm very new to the hobby)
To be honest I don’t really see it as a problem, if you print out extra bodies to make extra minitures. What I do think is an issue is the money wasted, by putting those extra pieces into the parts box.
Also the trolls look awesome mate 👍🏻
Personally I feel the same, taking a product that is already out there and reprinting it is a no no. If you are just printing some part and not selling it then id say its ok. The sold troll body is where I would draw the line here. Also the fact that it basically is the same body but a little less detail, no creativeness has gone into it so it is basically copyright infringement. If the body was sculpted ground up and was completely different yet compatible with gw bits and free... no issue for me. Side note, nice to see you back and GREAT to see more lord of the rings!!
It’s a tough one around copyright infringement (and it’s why I didn’t get in to the ‘legal’ side in the video!) but essentially I think it would be very difficult for GW to fight it as they don’t hold a copyright for a generic troll body. That being said, there are definitely some similarities, but I don’t know where the line would be drawn legally.
And thanks! I’ll be back with more Lord of the Rings soon 😊
@@BenjisHobbies they are pretty good at squashing things and have a pretty good legal team, however like you say, can they copyright the troll body? If it's a near direct copy like the prints you have look like they are... Then I'd say yea they will at some point crack down. These days there is so many people already doing recasts, 3d prints and such I think they are just cracking down on those that are really making some money out of it. As you say though... Its a hard one
Bro, there's only so many ways to do a pebbly skinned monster body. GW would never have a case here. Literally everything legally distinct about LOTR style trolls is all of the other bits he stuck on from the kit. That body is super generic. You could turn it into anything with the right bits, and you could turn any slightly hunched body of the right size into a LOTR troll with those bits. The closest this comes to violating IP laws is that it might violate trademark if it's advertised as a "GW LOTR Troll Body".
There's no dilemma.. You paid for the kit, you paid for the 3D printer, you paid for the 3D model, you paid for the resin..
I consider this similar to making the extra bodies yourself from Greenstuff. Which I feel no ethical qualms with. If the troll bodies had been made from scans of the original, that would be questionable. But it doesn't seem they were. Someone made a 3D model from scratch inspired by the original just as you'd have done modeling it in greenstuff.
Your guy looks really great! I would say it's dependent on the hobbyist. In your efforts and anyone else doing similar work, it's in the celebration of the hobby and creativity. If you are truly invested in the hobby, which it seems you are, I feel it's fine. I'd even extend it into your own hobby groups to help enhance the play experience. My first projects with my 3d printer was custom kit bashing, to use up bits in my bits box.
privateer press had a rule that something Iike 70% of the model had to be from the original kit. I used extra heads and arms on some third party bodies for the middle ranks in my tomb kings army and still used it in a official games workshop tournament. either nobody noticed or cared.
back in the metal days you could order individual parts off the games workshop website. then thay got into some copyright problems problems with lord of the rings parts being on warhamer models from a golden demon that was in their magazine. and that the only part that is illegal is if it breaks copyright.
I don't think you have to overthink it, GW could easily let you order separate parts which they used to in the past. The way a kit like this works nowadays is a huge waste of plastic, and it adds up to have an environmental impact in the long run with all the unused pieces people end up sitting on. Also GW aren't always the most ethical company themselves, for example the recent killteam releases have terrain boxes that are almost identical to the old ones but with fewer pieces and a higher price than the old ones, despite showing pictures in the preview article of the previous amount of terrain.
I see what you’re saying about GW, but in my mind two wrongs don’t make a right. If GW have been dishonest it doesn’t give me free reign to steal their IP. The plastic waste bits is very valid - I have so many bits in my ‘bits box’ but I know I’ll never get round to using them.
@@BenjisHobbies It's a fine line really, I mean, if you sculpt the body with green stuff sold by GW that's obviously fine, but if you use another brand is that ok? I kind of think it is, but ofc it's up to your own moral standards. Either way I really wish that they'd let us order specific bits again. That would be awesome.
So far as I know that is a generic troll body you printed. It's not a recast of someone's copyrighted artwork.
I will do the same thing, but i will use green stuff to make its legs thicker...
gw is pricing them self out of buisnisse so it is normal for poeple to print or make there own minis be it by printing or sculpting or buying from other compagnies
Recasting current range models is stealing but finding a similar model and kitbashing has been around for far longer then 3D printing, for me I don't see this as any different to that or using greenstuff to sculpt things. Ultimately you're just utilising the rest of the set that was sold to you.
Very good point. The end result is no different, for some reason though it just feels ‘different’!
@@BenjisHobbies I can understand that, I imagine it'll feel more normal as it becomes more common in the hobby. :)
I think games workshop should sell extra parts to all of their models. Extra body parts would create more use of spare bits and being able to buy spare bits so people are able to repair and customise damaged models would save a lot of waste. Its really a shame they dont capitalise on this gap in the market because people would pay for this. I have a sauron model thats missing the spikes from his face and after scouring ebay for ages i reached out to GW to see if they could send me or sell me the one missing part but they refused. I had to buy an entire replacement model so my other one has gone into the bits box to probably never be used again
Food for thought: Apply the same scenario to the non-mini/digital side of the game.
GW minis are designed to be used in GW games. They're part of a "set" or "kit" that you buy separately from the rules.
There exist several "miniature agnostic" rules out there (Frostgrave for example). You can use almost any minis you want to play the game.
Let's say you decide to use GW minis to play Frostgrave. Would you feel you "stole" rules from GW because you used someone else's ruleset instead of buying their "intended" rules?
You downloaded (and paid for) an alternative part of your gaming "kit" to use with your miniatures. You COULD have bought GWs rules if you didn't play Frostgrave. You didn't make a ruleset yourself.
Regardless of how you answer that one, or if you say "that's different because...," hopefully in thinking your way through you can better nail down what your values/judgement/feelings about it are
Sorry for the text wall and all the "quotes." Great video, and your Uruk Hai-adjacent Troll looks great!
It wouldn't be an issue if GW took it's head out of it's arse and allowed you to buy individual parts like they used to back in the day (which was also extra handy for making your own conversions). In this instance you'd buy two extra troll bodies and use the spare parts you've already got, but obviously they want you to buy a full set each time.
I’m not sure it would work in this instance as the body is on a sprue with other bits, so I’d end up with even more parts! 😂 I’d love the bits service back but I can imagine it was soooo much work, and now that more and more kits are plastic I guess it’s a service that will be needed less and less over time.
I've only ever used one 3d printed part. I found an STL file of a shield similar to the Breacher shield forge world used to sell for Mark II marines which they don't produce any longer and I had a local guy who owns a printer print me 2 of them because I needed 2 for my All Mark III Loyalist survivors of Isstvan III Kill team. "Memoirs of Isstvan". I don't at all think it is wrong of me to do so theoretically I could have sculpted them from Green stuff myself if I had the time / effort / skill to do so sure. Will this make my team Illegal for Tournaments hosted by GW,
Sure But for any other tournament I would ask the TO first off. Do I plan to go to any tournaments? No, Do I think the people I play with will complain about it? No
Will I tell them thats how I sourced the parts", Absolutely,
You buy a pack of 6 Hotdog Buns and a Pack of 10 Hotdogs.
You can't buy packs of 10 Hotdog Buns or packs on 6 Hotdogs.
You don't want the 4 hotdogs going to waste.
You decide to bake 4 more Hot Dog buns yourself at home.
They won't be as good, but you'll use all the Hotdogs you paid for.
You follow someone else's recipe, but use your own ingredients.
Was it immoral to bake those buns?
What a great analogy! I love it! 😂
For YEARS I just wanted GW to pack in 2-4 extra torsos, or offer them online order for like 3Eur, just because I had so many arms and items that 2-4 torso would be awesome! Now though GW has just been making super barest sprues and boxes that it's just you build X or Y with maybe a single option or one heavy that's it, and it forces you to purchase 2-3 extra boxes just to have a viable squad/unit to put on the table. It irks me, it pisses me off. Say for Indomitus there are literally almost no wasted parts it's wysiwyg save for if you want to hot swap the necron rifles which is easy, for Dominion however, if you print/mold like 5 half torsos and 8 chest pieces you can make yourself 12 extra hobgrots and some other command chap, and if you make like 7 torsos you have like 7 extra stormcast with axe/spear and shield, and it's crazy, it's just nuts to waste everything when you are missing half the kit of half your models and they just need a single tiny torso or even half a torso. It's like I'm being stole from, that what it feels like, GW is stealing from me.
GW should feel immoral for charging the prices they do
How did you do the isengard trolls skin, looks amazing! I'm stealing this idea btw!
Thanks buddy! Only just seen your comment so apologies for the late reply. I think the skin colour was Rhinox Hide, then Doombull Brown and then Tuskgore Fur. Hope that helps!
@@BenjisHobbies ah nice one! Thank you!
eventually people will just design their own prints and use them for fair use or sell them and you can make them yourself like we do these days with copyright free music etc. This is the future of making miniatures
3D printer owner and another who has had this moral dilemma. Personally, I've said to myself that if over 50% of the model is GW plastic, I'm fine with that. Remember, it'll never be allowed in a GW tournament or shop game so between friends or a shelf filler, I'm satisfied. I won't print a whole army of Space Marines but if GW put 6 torsos in an Ork kit and enough arms to keep a football team of octupuses happy but only 5 sets of legs, I'm using their plastic and making the most of the kit by printing the missing parts. Crossing the line for me would be printing to sell.
I hadn’t planned on using these guys in a GW tournament so I should be ok 😊 I’ve basically done with these what you’ve done with your orks, and I have zero intention to sell.
Dont skip leg day troll bros! :D
It include GW bits in all 3 model , so its legal
Interesting thought process there. You have effectively saved on plastic waste but would those parts have been used for something else in a kit bash? Dunno the answer to that however 3d printing for kit bashing is a new age for hobbying and until laws come in then people effectively have free rain. Anyway good video dude
They could have been used in another kitbash, but probably only to make another troll 😅
Not using some of what you’ve bought from a company, out of concern that using all of it will hurt the company, makes no sense whatsoever.
I don't think its any more immoral than making your own terrain.
I mean you can glue your paid for parts anywhere you want in your house, so why not a plastic troll body
Nope. No issue. It's not games workshops product. They cant licence 'troll'.
Honestly no different from sculpting your own or buying bits off ebay.
Very true and it’s very much more the way I’m leaning towards!
If someone sculpted those bodies no one would bat an eyelid but just because you printed what would cost gw pennies to include in the box already I think its not a huge deal. You still gave gw money for what they made and got the most out of it.
I think more of an issue is when people print full armies of gw stuff. As much as I feel gw charge far too much for what they make I also know I would hate it if someone just started printing all my hard work.
Great video, Benji! I like how you address the ethical issues raised by 3d printing & that you grapple with that question. I think your personal moral compass is definitely finely tuned towards Lawful Good 😊 That said, I think intent is key here.
From your video I deduce your intent was to make a fun video about an artistic and creative hobby pursuit that you are passionate about. Again, that's my interpretation- you didn't upsell any product or service, you actually used a kit you paid for that had extras languishing on sprues. All your property! If you'd used entirely 3d printed parts derived from blatant recasts and attempted to profit from that, that would be unethical. However, you didn't- you used two extra torsos that appear to have been designed in a programme, not lifted from the originals, but certainly inspired. You then sculpted the GW kit to 3D printed 'troll chassis' and in that process pointed out how much better the original parts were by comparison!
Highly creative and ethical, if you ask me. It's a fun hobby video with a sprinkling of philosophy at the end.
As you Northern lads say, 'champion!'.
Thanks for your very detailed and thoughtful reply! I definitely tend to see myself falling in to the ‘lawful good’ category!
I think you’ve very much hit the nail on the head in terms of the context of the video and really appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and thanks so much for leaving such a positive comment!
As long as the printed model is not a copy of the original, this is perfectly legal. Not GW tournament-legal, of course, but legally sound. If you had printed an entire troll someone else designed and put up, you wouldn't feel bad about it, right, so why is printing just part of a troll somehow worse?
ミニチュアの未来はどうなるのか、技術の進歩は止まらない
I think this is fine for me personally. If you had made castings of the single body, would that have been stealing, if it’s just for your own personal use? I’d argue if you’re making money from it, it’s stealing, if it’s for personal use and you’ve bought the kit, fair game. I’d be more dubious about casting whole units mind... but just a few pieces to make those spares (that you’ve paid for) useful to you? Nah.
That was cool! Can't comment on the moral side of it... I guess what ever you are comfortable with. All that aside what you actually did with the mini's was seriously cool. I like the idea of minis being a little more unique to you so the modifications are very cool in my opinion.
Thanks dude! Fun little project and trying out some new skills - what’s not to love!
Buying plastic kits where more of the plastic is wasted unusable parts and sprue than actual model is immoral.
Would you have the same feeling if you had found a usable body in the form of a poundshop toy?
Very good point!
Did you know that once upon a time they sold individual sprues from their models? You could easily get parts that would allow you to make more models from existing bits. This troll kit was probably the most wasteful one I've seen. With the addition of a few more bodies you can make so much more with it. And no its not stealing unless you make copies of their work and resell it. What you personally do with the parts once you buy it is all good and who ever made the sculpt you used it was not the same as the original and obviously not copied and resold. So once again not stealing.
I remember those days! I can’t imagine the logistical headache that must have been! 😅
It still takes time and expertise to use a printer 😉
Very true! I know I’m not (currently) capable of 3D sculpting so I know that creating takes some skill and knowhow. Using the printer though is pretty simple. Even I can press the button and make it go!
I think this situation is legitimate. You've used an art form to make two new bodies. I think that this comes down to how you intend on using 3d printing. I think that supplementing like this is fine, vs if you were using 3d printing to use the addtional pieces to sell on again and make a profit. Obviously these models look very GW, so will probably pass inspection if you wanted to use them in a tournament or the like.
I do think there is another question here about how to play the game element here. If I want to play numenor, assuming I take Elendil (185pt) and Isuldur (120pt) at $25 and a Captain at (50pts), I would need 17-18 warriors to get to about 500pts. Thats about 6 blisters of three warriors for $15 each. $90. If I can achieve the same result by kitbashing other kits with 3d printed parts, I suddenly have an easier entry into the game itself.
I really really like GW's sculpts.... they just carry a really high price tag.
Is stealing from a thief still theft ?
Honestly, I think it's a great idea - what else were you going to do with the other bits THAT YOU HAVE PAID FOR as part of the original kit?
You're not stealing GW's intellectual property, the body you printed is (at best) "inspired" by a GW Troll. Would you feel so bad if you'd added the extra GW bits onto a body that you had bought elsewhere?
The bits would have been sat in a box, more than likely forever!
I don't think this is illegal really, unless you're planning on selling those additional trolls for a profit. As you say, if you didn't have access to an additional set of bodies, these parts would've just been around, catching dust in your bin box. It just makes sense to find a way to utilise these parts. It's also not as if GW didn't earn a profit on this, with you buying their Mordor troll box. I find the situation different when you print an entire model that's clearly meant to "replace" an official model.
Anyway, looks great, just a shame the legs are sorta skinny in comparison to the official body. As you say, the level of detail can be disguised or added upon with the right materials, but the basic foundation can't be really improved that much unless you spend hours to sculpt the extra muscle tissue on the legs.
I'm sure GW would love to tell you that if you sculpted the whole thing it's still illegal and morally unacceptable, but really the only difference between the 2 is that you have either more time to hobby and you have access to a 3D printer... the only real impact you're having is that you can't play in a GW shop or tournament with them. It's the same as me going to another manufacturer, buying 3 trolls and using them instead, and with GW's pricing methods I'm fairly certain I can get 3 very nice models for around the same price as the official models.
It's your kit - you do what you want with it, so long as you are not making a profit off of GW's property. I saw no indication that you made any money off of your project, just that you made three rather impressive models.
No money made at all - they’re purely for my personal collection 😊
I really like these trolls and now I am likely to do the same thing although I will have to reproduce the bodies with blue stuff moldmaker and epoxy putty
It’s a great moral/ethical question. As you mentioned, you wouldn’t likely have bought three packs for three trolls, but that feels like a slippery slope to ‘I wouldn’t have bought a new army’ or similar. I really don’t know where I sit overall, I’m not okay with the theft of IP or breaking copyright, but at the same time there are some great prints available
Exactly that - you’ve hit the nail on the head. I’m not ok with copyright infringement, but it feels like the lines are very blurred when it comes to 3D printing.
@Benji’s Hobbies I think the dilemma lies in distributing, especially for profit. If you were to have designed 3d files for your own personal use then sure, it's just next level kit bashing but buying it, that's more like the days of bootleg Disney DVD's at car boots in my eyes.
Honestly surprised some of these 3d sites aren't getting DMCA's, have you seen Gambody? That's just blatant theft by some guys from Eastern Europe and dodgy offshore shell companies!
@@tuvaaq a very good point, distribution is probably key. I’m also surprised the cease and desists aren’t more common in some cases
@@ThatNathan I think 3d printing is still rather niche, it's probably cheaper to let a few people pirate than it is to start donating millions to politicians. A bit like unofficial online game servers I imagine, Blizzard finally acted when one for World of warcraft Classic had a 6 figure community using their IP for free.
If you bought two trolls from another company and kit bashed them, would you feel bad? If you 3d printed a completely different troll and never paid GW a cent for their kit? The model is clearly lower quality and different, although inspired by the GW pose. I have no qualms with this. I have always wanted to play this game, but with the amount of plastic I already buy from GW, it never fits my budget. I might go look at completely 3d printing armies. My personal view of the books doesn't completely align with the movie visuals anyway
There is no moral dilemma. GW are pricing themselves out of people like me buying their product. I have $30K worth of models from GW sitting here, and with their constant rules and edition changes forcing me to throw out $100 books etc. then I see nothing wrong with 3D printing models.
You bought the models it's not stealing there's no real moral problem especially when it's a company that is notorious for increasing prices on old outdated models
No moral dilemma. You paid for yor kit, used the leftover bits in combo with another tool...your 3d printer...and kitbash two new trolls. Your 3d printer is no more or less a tool in your arsenal than the greenstuff. Just different. You even paid for the 3d body sculpts on thingiverse. All fair and square IMO.
Did you buy the troll kit? Yes.
Did you buy the printed body file/kit? Yes.
So do you own all of the parts and pieces and can do whatever you want with them?
Of course you do and can!
Alternatively, you could have bought GW plastic bodies from a 3rd party/aftermarket bits seller or in a lot from an auction website, or had extra bodies from other kits (not trolls) and kitbashed. All giving the same result; 3 trolls from one box. Is kitbashing, or converting, theft? Of course not. All of these methods save you time, money, or effort.
GW and any other company have to start figuring out a different business model in the face of 3D printing. You’re just ahead of that curve.
you could cast the body in blue stuff and have the same 3 trolls. for me, beign sincere i prefer buy patreons stl, like titanforge, print the cyberforge marines and use then as a proxy to play 40k with friends because i don't like what gw is doing with the game and the lore anymore. if you are going to bother me saying that's unethical, i'm simply leave the discussion and keep 3d printing.