He was only 42 years old. I'm 42 and I can't see myself running a car company at this point. Best under the breath line ever. Almost fell on the floor laughing. Kudos.
Chrysler's operation in South Africa was a bit incongruous in the 70s. Its stalwart product was the Valiant, which was the country's best-selling car in the late 60s and early 70s and based on the American Valiant, Dart, and Duster models. The "Arrow" range was made in various permutations, fitted with the locally-made Peugeot 404 engine to meet government local-content regulations. Chrysler had taken over assembly of the strange-looking, but excellent little Mitsubishi Colt from a contract assembler and began selling Mitsubishi products, later adding the Galant GS Hardtop as a specialty model. The Avenger was launched in late 1974 as a "Dodge Avenger" and was a four-wheeled Frankenstein, with the body from Argentina, RHD gear from the UK and a locally-made Peugeot engine, replaced the following year by imported Hillman engines. The 1973 "Fastbody" Valiants adopted the Australian design, but kept the locally-made "Slant Six" which was available with up to 190 hp! Dodge pickup trucks were assembled as well as the Dodge Husky, a pickup version of the Arrow that was different from the one made in Iran. Chrysler began manufacturing the Mitsubishi o-h-c engines locally in late 1976, when it merged operations with ILLINGS, who were responsible for Mazda in South Africa. Illings did not have its own factory and contracted assembly to Motor Assemblies, which was owned by Toyota who urged Illings to find another assembler as Toyota's sales were growing rapidly. The Chrysler-Illings merger was called "SIGMA" and was headquartered at Chrysler's Silverton plant near Pretoria, where Mazda car assembly eventually moved. The Mazda 323 was launched in 1977 and became the fastest-selling car in South African history. The old Hillman designs were discontinued to make room on the assembly line for Madas. There was a brief merger with Leyland that only lasted a few months, and Sigma acquired the Peugeot-Citroen franchise and moved Peugeot production to Silverton from the Natalspruit plant that had, ironically, assembled all of Rootes' locally-made products! Chrysler sold its shares in Sigma to Anglo-American, a huge South African conglomerate, and the company became "AMCAR", selling Peugeots, Mazdas and Mitsubishis together. With the political and economic situation deteriorating, Ford merged its South African operation with AMCAR in 1985, creating the South African Motor Corporation (SAMCOR), partly owned by Ford of Canada, and focused on the Ford and Mazda brands, each with its own dealer network, the latter continuing to sell Mitsubishi light commercial vehicles. The post-apartheid period saw Ford eventually taking over the operation and today the Silverton plant near Pretoria is one of the world's primary suppliers of Ford Ranger pickups.
Quite an interesting video. My father, Franklin Rogers, worked for Chrysler International from 1959 to 1980. We moved to France in 1959 when my dad was named Chrysler's financial representative to SIMCA; he learned French (sort of!) and worked at the Poissy headquarters (pronounced poi-see by the way). Tough duty as the French were glad to have the Chrysler investment but did not appreciate the oversite. In 1965 we moved to Adelaide, South Australia where my dad was Director of Finance for the company; my first cars were Hillman Imp GT's (knock down cars built in Australia from largely British parts). 875cc and 55 HP! By the way, HIllman is pronounced like Hill-Men. In 1968 back to France where Chrysler now controlled SIMCA and my dad had the line job of Director of Finance, doubtless to the chagrin of those who had previously given him a hard time. He then moved to Spain where he headed Chrysler Spain ( I saw those knockdown Darts being hand assembled at the plant; drove them too with a slant 6 and three on the floor transmission). Then back to France where he headed SIMCA, again to the great chagrin of many who thought a French person should run the company (there were serious death threats). And then--off to lovely Chrysler UK, which was as pointed out here a total nightmare. With all the constant strikes there was no way to make it work. He eventually moved to Geneva where he oversaw the winding up of Chrysler Europe...and retired in 1980. For what it is worth I drove a SIMCA 1100S all over the then Yugoslavia; and a Hillman Avenger GT from London the the North Cape of Norway; both of these trips over mostly dirt roads; the cars were really reliable and great to drive. I had SIMCA's here in the US as well during college and they were as good as any small European import at the time with dealing with American conditions. This all made for a very interesting career for my Dad, and I still have bottles of 1963 Chateau Greysac, which was owned by Henri Pigozzi and foisted on the SIMCA executives at the time!
Thanks for sharing this story. Here in Brazil we had Chrysler do Brasil S.A. due to their Simca takeover. They started their operations in 1967, and took an existing Simca to Detroit to make several improvements. The V8 derived from Ford, got a "Hemi" head improving the car's performance. The Esplanada and Regente models were created, and wore a badge saying "Made by Chrysler do Brasil"...even though they were still badged and called Simcas. The Simcas were dropped in 1969, with the introduction of the Dodge Dart, identical to the American model. Throughout the years, they didn't make a lot of different models nor major changes to the cars...2 door hardtop and 4 door sedan Darts, all powered by a 318 V8. There was a sportier version called Charger with styling cues from the american Charger. We had Dodge trucks, and a product from Chrysler Europe....the Hillman Avenger. Here it was initially named Dodge 1800 (due to its engine displacement of 1.8 liters), but due to quality issues, it was later renamed Polara. I believe that the limited investment done in Brazil, was due to these issues Chrysler faced in the US and Europe. There was a Dodge Polara 4 door station wagon concept, but was never produced, as well as a concept of a Dodge 1800 powered by Ethanol...first car in Brazil to have this alternative fuel option. Chrysler left in 1981, after VW purchase 3 years before.
When I grew up in Germany, my parents kept buying their cars from the same family-owned dealership. I was too young to follow business news. All I knew was that the dealership and the cars went from being branded Simca, then Talbot, then Peugeot. I came to the United States in 1986. That's when I found out about Chrysler's bankruptcy and sale of their European operation. It was my lightbulb moment as to why those brands back in Europe had changed. My childhood dream was to own a Horizon. The American counterparts were readily available when I came to the U.S. But my first car ended up being a 'Vette. A 1979 Chevette. 😂
One of the key issues in the failure was the policy of placing US executives on short 3 year assignments. These executives eager to make their mark, but three years is not long enough to do it with product development so they focused on cutting cost and so quality from existing products. Rootes and Simca had a reputation of good quality products, but under Chrysler the products earned a reputation for poor quality and reliability.
Rootes did not have a body pressing plant, they relied on independent manufacturers such as Pressed Steel Fisher (PSF). The reason Linwood was chosen was that there was a PSF factory that had been making a pressed steel coal wagon for British Rail. So the deal was to build a new assembly factory on a war time torpedo factory next to the PSF plant that the government would also fund the refitting out to make Rootes bodies for Linwood and Ryton. The PSF factory was bought by Chrysler when BMC bought PSF and the government forced its sale under competition law.
This story has always fascinated me, as a child it was a source of confusion why cars like the Hunter and Avenger changed names so many times, then the names disappeared. TBH I find it incredible that Peugeot didn't simply reinstate the Simca and Hillman names and go from there rather than using the obscure Talbot moniker. I think with a range of reskinned Peugeots, in the 1980s this might have worked well for them in the same way Skoda and Seat have done for VW. The Chrysler name was only really around for a couple of years, so the old names were still fresh in people's minds. As an aside, my father had a 1978 Horizon. It was Talbot badged at the back, but had the Pentastar at the front and on the steering wheel... Wikipedia mentions that only the Avengers were like this but some early Talbot Horizons were the same! It also had a trip computer which was seriously cool tech at the time but never worked properly, in true French electrics fashion. I'm pretty sure the Talbot name hung around on vans into the 1990s!
My father owned a 1977 or 1978 Simca 1307S. We had to get rid of it by the mid-1980s due to its mounting problems. It always had issues with its electrics, but these weren't the end of the world. What killed it was the engine and the complete lack of rust protection. Its original engine failed catastrophically; it was replaced with an equally unreliable second-hand unit from a 1508. At least that engine survived until we said goodbye to the car. What prompted us to make it someone else's problem was the rust. Even though it seemed fine on the outside, the floorpan had rusted really badly. And we weren't living in the dampest environment in the world, mind you; Athens (Greece) isn't known for killing cars with its climate. At any rate, I remember that, when it worked properly, it was a very agreeable car: spacious, comfortable, practical, with a well-equipped instrument cluster, and its performance was relatively lively, despite its 4-speed gearbox. As for the downsides (besides the engines and the rust), my father still criticizes the sloppy gearchange, and none of us liked how hot the vinyl seats got in the summer.
Your 'Why did Chrysler Europe fail?' points are all really valid. One factor that should be added is the cars themselves and also the brand. Simca and Rootes Group cars were quite desirable and with a distinct heritage and brand identity. Most of the Chrysler era cars however were fairly bland and anonymous. Whilst in the main competent they did not really stand out in any way. The brand also probably did not mean much to the average European buyer (unlike Ford, Opel/Vauxhall (GM), Austin, Rover, Triumph (BL), Simca and the old Rootes Group marques). This meant that it struggled with a lack of identity. The same with Talbot, which was meant to appeal to both French and British buyers but left both wondering what it was meant to be.
Just an add from a German point of view: over here Simca was very well known for their small, practical and reliable rear engined cars. They were used at Rallyes and stood their ground against similar sized rear engined cars. Of Rootes or Barreios I never have heard at all, nor do I believe they had any sales in Germany. The last car that had at least some impact was the Horizon. Other Talbots seemed quite obscure, sales minimal at best. At that time Chrysler’s US products played no role at all, later on Jeeps and some Dodges had very limited success.
@@darkredvan Interesting to hear. I am not sure where Talbots were sold in Europe beyond the UK, France and also Spain presumably but have seen examples of Dutch and I think Scandinavian (forget which country, maybe Denmark) brochures and price lists from the early 1980s on the web. I agree that the Horizon was probably the pick of the bunch and not a bad choice of family car in its early years of production. However, it was not updated and developed as it should have been and never really threatened the 'Holy Trinity' of Escort, Astra/Kadett and Golf. Stiff competition from favourably priced and increasingly competent Japanese cars was no doubt also a factor as Talbot seemed to be a value-oriented brand from the advertising they used.
@@paulc9588 Talbots were sold in Germany, numbers however were low. I had the (very personal) impression that Peugot after they took over Chrysler Europe had no high interest in selling Talbots at all, they were the unloved part of the Peugeot dealerships.
@@darkredvan I agree, Talbot was very much sidelined under Peugeot ownership. You could see this from the dealerships which were dominated by Peugeot. Particularly so when the 205 arrived in 1983 and stole the show.
I lived in Coventry, my father working for Chrysler Europe in purchasing from 1969 until the mid 90s, I learned to drive on Chrysler Sunbeam and Horizon and my first car was one of the last batch of Talbot Horizon built at Ryton in 1985, replaced by a Peugeot 306 and the 206 both also built at Ryton. The Horizon suffered from the Chrysler cost cutting, underpinnings being little changed from the Sinca 1100 and having minimal rust protection, although quality and corrosion resistance was much improved under Peugeot.
@@DL-ls5sy It was project that resulted from the great Des ODell who ran the Chrysler / Talbot competition department, having had limited success with the BRM twin cam engine development of the Avenger engine along with some very suspect homologation for production series competition, he brokered a deal with Colin Chapman to use the Lotus 2.2 litre engine. It was all done on shoestring as was the whole competition program. However it achieved great success out of all proportion to their budget in the 2 years before the Audi Quattro hit the sport. He went on to build on a similar shoestring a 4x4 (Lancia Integrale like) Horizon using a Lotus turbo engine, but Peugeot had its own Group B plans with the 205, so the project was cancelled.
@@DL-ls5sy It is a lovely engine and it made the Sunbeam very special. What tune are you running, as I understand from my father who was doing the buying for the comp department only one production car was built with a 250hp competition spec engine for one of Peugeot directors in France. The rest had the standard 160hp, but I understand several since have been given the competition level of tune.
@@grahamariss2111 I have the standard engine : 155 BHP. I have also a Salisbury LSD 80 %. rather brutal and noisy. It's a good car, very reliable but if the brakes would be better, it would be great. For me, the big problem is the poor braking system.
Fascinating history! I was a designer with Talbot advanced design at Whitley in the early 80s. At the time, when I arrived, they had two concept cars (Eco 2000), both small one-box, 100mpg, 100mph, designs. As well as the Tagora. I worked briefly on the front-engined version of the Eco 2000, the other was rear engined. At a marketing clinic both designs were rejected by those taking part, apparently it was felt both cars needed bonnets! Talbot then moved to France and a short while later the one-box Renault Twingo was born to great success. Bad management and clinics have a lot to answer for. The Ford Edsel a famous example.
Thank you for that, it was very informative and I enjoyed watching. I live in Australia, here Hillman's were still known by that name after the takeover and assembled here. Chrysler Australia were looking to Japan though and chose to assemble the Mitsubishi Galant instead and the Hillman limped off the market largely unloved and not missed too much. The Galant (Dodge Colt in the US?) sold like hotcakes. The Chrysler 2 liter turned up here in 1975 badged as the Chrysler Centura. It was late to market by about two years because of union embargoes placed upon French imports because of the French governments nuclear tests in the Pacific. When it did arrive though the press loved it. It used the French 2 liter engine but had two six cylinder engines on option as well to compete with the offerings from Holden (GM) and Ford's offerings in the medium six market. One was 3.5 liter and the other was 4.0 liter. Chrysler Australia had enormous problems getting the panel fit right from the imported shells and according to the executives stories help from France to sort things out was non existant. Word spread and sales suffered. In the eighties I bought a 4.0 liter 4 speed Centura and still remember it with great fondness. Lots of interior room and boot (trunk) space that rivalled larger cars. That huge six combined with a relatively light body produced blinding acceleration along with brilliant fuel economy. It lasted to 1978 but by then in six cylinder form only. 1980 was the end of Chrysler Australia as the parent company was having a fire sale and the entire operation was sold to Mistubishi. One assembly plant, engine foundary and about 500 dealers, all gone just like that.
@@johnking1381 No mate. I believe it was looked at but rejected in favour of Mitsubishi products instead. The K car was offered too but was also canned. Crazy really, just when economical front wheel drive cars were becoming the fashion. The Talbot Tagoro got very close to becoming a production reality though. It was to use both locally developed and built six cylinder engines. Too late, the axe fell and the whole thing was sold to Mitsubishi.
"union embargoes placed upon French imports because of the French governments nuclear tests in the Pacific" effecting the Centura is a fable. The Centura project didn't get the green light (March 1973) to proceed till after the UK V6 project was abandoned. 1973 and 1974 were both all time record highs for imports of French vehicle CKD parts and FBU vehicles. While the Tagora was sent over as a fibreglass model in the last days of Chrysler Australia, it didn't and couldn't have proceeded much more than a proposal.
@@jameslong9845 Yes the union embargoes put the brakes on the Centura and made it late to market. According to the excellent "Chrysler great ideas in motion" book, Talbot invited Chrysler Australia executives to Paris and offered the Tagora for local assembly. It was to use the Mitsubishi 2.6 liter four and both hemi sixes. It was seriously considered. The parent companies woes meant that that a fire sale was in order and Chrysler Australia was in their gun sights. Imagine that car up against the VB Commodore and soon to released XD Falcon.
Great detailed history with reference to the politics of the time. One wonders if Chrysler Europe was able to cut their losses in the UK (Linwood), they may have been able to have salvaged the European operation. Simca combined with Roy Axe's styling were very good looking cars contemporaneously (except for the Tagora - which was no worse than some later Chrysler K-car offerings). The myopia of the US Management to not cut the UK loose ultimately sunk the entire ship. This can be contrasted by the farsightedness of the French government who absorbed Simca into their industrial base, and after the Tagora model, Simca developed cars were relatively successful - Poissy still making cars and money to this day, and Ryton plant made what could be considered the last Simca design the Peugeot 309. The Renault Espace was another British design/French engineered success story, also experienced its genesis under Simca/MATRA.
Thank You! I'm glad you enjoyed this! I came to believe that the intimidating presence of Townsend (who stayed on until 1976) prevented anyone in the top mgt of Chrysler doing anything; and when Riccardo went over in 1975 he asked for a bailout but should have pulled out anyway; once the government agreed to the bailout they were on the hook to keep the plants open. Also, the collapsing sales on the American side forced them to get rid of all of Europe instead of keeping Simca because they desperately needed to avoid bankruptcy in 1978. It only kept the lights on for another year!
I was born & raised in Germany.I saw only one Chrysler (forgot the name but it was its largest sedan) around 1975. I am sure Chrysler Europe was hoping for fairly high sales of its models in Germany but they never had a chance against Ford & Opel.
This is a great history , lots of key facts, so enjoyable, thanks a lot. In Colombia, my country, Mopar had his own factory, called Chrysler Colmotores, since 1964, I guess until early 1980, selling plant and operations to a GM, all that made under Chairman Lee command. In his autobiography, by the way I just read it, the lack of internal relationships, the critical R&D departamente cut bakcs under Lynn management, to build without a dealer order, the rusty front Aspen / Volares front fenders, all that was a real mess, among many other hidden facts. In Colombia we saw the Avengers, Alpines 150, Simca 1000/1300 line up, the american Dodge Dart- Demon, 1978/1981 Aspen (renamed Dart here to continue the brand name), 1966/67 Coronet, later 1978/1981 Coronet, (a re-badged Diplomat US sample), D100/300/600 and the W/100 Power Wagon, a truly blended cake of all types of cars, what a deal, but they sold well, no inventory left. I can see that Europe market split was neccesary, due that Iaccoca`s firt target was US domestic markets. I was a spare parts sales retalier here in the 80`s and mid 90's, so all those models were good road/street performers. By thew way, with the Aspen/Dart models we didn`t have any rusty issues, because this is a tropical country, as you know. Miss all those models a lot, and let me tell you, I had head to head comparo with the C/10/30 Chevy and D100/300 Mopar model, and this last one, was better than GM truck, for example, in almost every condition and maintenance costs. Really funny, but it was real. Thanks again, very nice job.
The Horizon did not result from the UK's government bail out. The car that resulted was the Chrysler Sunbeam a super mini derived from the Avenger and built alongside it at Linwood. The Horizon was a core product the car designed to follow the Alpine (which was styled in UK and engineered in France) into the market and from very early a joint project with the USA (initiated after 73 fuel crisis). The plan was to use the same new platform in the USA (copy of the Golf), however cost cutting led to the European car using the Alpines Simca derived platform.
One of the best summary's I've seen. Perhaps the Imp wasn't the start of Rootes problems as they were in trouble before its development. The UK V6 C car didn't entirely go to waste either as resources got channelled into the Australian version (1975-77 Centura).
Hillman Imps are fantastic. A brilliant design hampered by a lack of development and a recalcitrant work force. The car was an automotive weapon. Very interesting video. Thanks.
Really useful and informative video, thank you. One small error is that the Hillman Imp was replaced by the Chrysler/Talbot Sunbeam supermini, not the Horizon. The Horizon was a larger car and basically a VW Golf competitor intended to replace the Simca 1100. Developed in Coventry and built at Linwood 1977-1981, the Sunbeam was a 3-door hatchback based on the larger Avenger. To all intents and purposes an updated Avenger (which also remained in production until 1981) but positioned below both the Horizon and ancient Avenger in the Chrysler/Talbot range. Confusing I know!
This is a point; Robson and most other writers basically say the Imp was not directly replaced. I wouldn't consider the Sunbeam hatch as a replacement because it is not really a new design (based on the existing platform) and it isn't in the same market category as the Imp (although in terms of Linwood production it basically was). The Horizon was a ground-up design that takes the place of the Imp in the small family-car category- but really it's not a direct replacement but in terms of sales &marketing I considered it was more or less...
@@superadventure6297 I would say the Sunbeam is much closer to the Imp than the Horizon. It even carried over the opening rear window! The Horizon was a market segment above, what us Europeans call a small family or 'C' segment car. If you wanted to replace your Imp with a modern supermini (Ford Fiesta, Renault 5, Datsun Cherry etc.) the Sunbeam was the obvious choice from the Chrysler stable. Not sure it matters that it was not an all-new design. The Sunbeam was in turn replaced by the Talbot Samba (basically a rebadged Peugeot 104), the equivalent of an Imp in the 1980s. It is possible to argue that the Imp was not directly replaced by the Sunbeam (ditto the Mini by the Austin Metro) but the Horizon was a different type of car that competed with the likes of the VW Golf, Vauxhall Astra and Fiat Ritmo/Strada.
The sunbeam used the imp's 1 liter engine and was produced at Linwood, however it's body was a development of the avenger's and it also used the larger 1.3 & 1.6 engines from the avenger. Later with the introduction of a Lotus engine (using a GM crankshaft) it beat the Audi Quattro to win the World Rally Championship !
The Talbot Tagora gave me extra holly days in Spain because it broke down and got ruined for ever. As a young child it felt like a spaceship inside. It was a velour GLS. I also have a experience with a Solara GLS automatic.
When I moved from South Africa to Germany in 1987, I purchased a Tagora GLS automatic, which was available at a very attractive price. It was an excellent car with superb handling abilities and did particularly well in winter conditions. The seats were very comfortable, the interior light and roomy and the boot was huge. The square styling made it easy to park, despite being a rather large car by German standards. Consumption was typical of a car its size. My only complaint was the flimsy indicator wand and other switches, which fell as though they were ready to fall off at any moment...
I don’t know who/why the Simca brand was killed off, BUT, I had an Aronde for about a half year, until the military called. That was one of the best cars I’ve had in my 77+ years. It handled, drove, economical, and was just an all around sweet car. Wished many times over the years I still had it.
I am Dutch, living close to the sea. The main problem with Chrysler Europe products (and later Talbot) was, they rusted, even much more than conteporary competitors. The cars were OK, the Chrysler Simca Horizon even made it to European car of the year at launch.
The Chrysler horizon and tablot alpine actually saved both Peugeot and Chrysler. The horizon was a huge success for Chrysler in the 1980s, whilst Peugeot replaced every bit of the alpine / 1510 with Peugeot parts and called it the 405. The 205 309 and Peugeots ever since have been simca / Talbot derived east west front wheel drive models. for Peugeot the acquisition of Talbot was a dramatic leap in development. Without which you couldn't see either firm surviving
Thanks for that informative video about the Chrysler Europe story. My parents had 2 Simca, a 1100 GLS and a Horizon LS. Both are nice cars, but had some problems with rust. Guess that the rust and some other quality problems were also a reason why Chrysler or later Talbot was shut down because they sold less cars
Great video, the main problem was the cars they were building were absolutely crap. My dad bought a brand new hunter in 1976 and it fell apart before his very eyes. Everything on the car gave trouble, endless repairs, it drank petrol, it was a complete money pit. It went to the junkyard with 79k miles when the engine block cracked. He never bought another British or American car ever again, our whole family went Toyota after that and never looked back.
Very good summary of Chrysler Europe’s failure! Chrysler was not alone in having “disconnected” management. I worked for British Leland in the US and the arrogance and ignorance of some of the BL managers of the US and conditions, etc. was legend! When decisions/recommendations by local country managers are ignored or overruled by someone in the home office thousands of miles and light years away in understanding, there will be big mistakes and huge losses. I doubt that the new Stelantis brand will avoid a similar fate.
I love automotive history, but have never heard this Chrysler in Europe story before. Well documented, organized and presented... Excellent job! One factor leading to Chrysler's decline in the '70s and near bankruptcy in 1981 was its slow decline in manufacturing quality. From its earliest days, when Walter Chrysler acquired and renamed Chalmers, the company earned a reputation for superior engineerng. The first 4-wheel hydraulic brakes, one of the best early six cylinder engines, the brilliant (although ill-fated) Airflow in the '30s... military tanks in the '40s, hemi head V8 engines and one of the best early automatic transmissions in the 50s. Toward the end of the 1950s and later, Chrysler's engineering prowess became compromised by poor manufacturing execution. They led the industry in the transition to unitized bodies, but integrity was poor and rust resistance was sub-standard. They pioneered the application of electronics in engine management, but systems were unreliable and drivability was lousy. Chrysler management seemed totally ignorant of their dismal quality by the mid 70's. They could no longer manage production of their own designs in North America. The collapse of Chrysler Europe was inevitable.
I had my driving lessons (13 at all )and exams in a Simca Horizon. All my parents' cars were Simcas (1300/1501 Special) Chrysler-Simcas (1308GT) and one Talbot (Solara). Nice docu.
Back in the '30's, I believe their was a car, a convertible, known as the Sunbeam Taltbot, and some other thing - a Talbot Lago? Could be very wrong on this, but my Dad, uncle and Grandfather spent heaps of time in Europe, and they spoke of these fondly. Either that, or I've got Alzheimer's sooner than expected.
This is very clear and thorough video on Chrysler Europe and has made me understand what happened over the years. P.S I once visited the Talbot factory in Poissy back in the 90's, I remember the big letter "T" on a large post or tower (didn't get to tour the factory unfortunately)
Very good & Interesting assessment of Chryslers attempts to compete with GM and Ford in Europe and it's demise of that venture in the European market. Chysler I think simply didn't know it's customer service or it's base especially in France The Talbot line of cars for example was a very good example of not knowing what sort of cars fit the national Taste and stylish norms of a given market With Chysler there was an "Ugly American" attitude that basically spelled out to the sensitivity of Labor organizations i especially in The UK and in France "what's good for Chysler in the US is what good for Everyone else in Europe and elsewhere.in other words their was a pyramid style of management web the US subsidiary of Chrysler at the very top and at the very bottom the European division of Chrysler instead of both sides from both ponds working together and having respect for each other's perspective Markets, and labor and supply systems. That kind of mindset is what Chysler out of it 's shortsightedness AND arrogance hurt Chysler on three fronts ALL at the same time.; The European market which it abandoned because of labor problems. The American market because it ignored the two oil embargo issues in 1973 and 1979 in the US effecting it's Market share and it's inability to produce smaller more fuel efficient / reliable and safe cars at that time and last but not least The emerging Asian market particularly the Japanese Market in which Chysler and the entire U.S domestic Market Whopefully underestimated the revolution and power of Japanese brand cars that were smaller , better put together cheaper and above all reliable and more fuel efficient than Detroit's clumsy poorly executed disasters that the other Detroit manufacturers arguably accept American Motors created for themselves by clearly underestimating the emerging quality and efficiency of the Japanese automobile industry. This is why Chysler almost died out by 1980 ... Not being prepared for change , knowledge of foreign markets outside of the US and bad management making poor decisions again not probably analyzing the tide of where trends were going in the automotive industry at the time...
This is fascinating. Thanks so much for this. It's great to see all those cars from my childhood in 1970s UK. I've always wondered where Talbot came from and went to. Now I know.
I owned a 1972 Plymouth Cricket/Avenger I found that the handling was quite good and parts were cheap. I set my car up for rallying so I had to quickly replace the plastic 10 blade cooling fan (which was 10 dollars and tended to fly apart with heavy rough use also taking out the radiator I might add) with a more durable 4 bladed steel one which was 4.98 (literally 2 pieces of steel welded together and curved to draw air and balanced) BUT mine had the automatic transmission which I wasn't fond of.
The Omni/Horizon pair could be called the only thing of value salvaged from Chrysler's European misadventure, and, being the basis for the K-cars, it was also a big factor in Chrysler's resurgence in the 1980s. But, alas, it was only the exterior shape that the European and American Horizons had in common. None of the body panels, suspension parts or interiors were shared. This was partly because Simca, was already committed to the torsion-bar suspension architecture of the Simca 1100, not the struts Chrysler wanted for the American market and had plants with different requirements for panel assembly than what Chrysler would use in the USA. So, other than the outside appearance, the two versions of Chrysler's "world car" only shared an occasional Simca engine and Chryler's Torqueflight automatic transmissions.
I'd add another issue that plagued Chrysler Europe - failure to understand what the competition was up to. In the UK at least, Ford was the bane of the existence of many automakers there. The Avenger was released to battle the alredy dated Mk2 Cortina, while Ford outdid them by releasing the Escort and a much larger Mk3 Cortina. And the Avenger was in a odd place - about the same size as the Escort, but priced as in the Cortina range. To vindicate them, Chrysler weren't the only ones who did the same folly - British Leyland released at the same time (after the typical for BL delays at the time) the Morris Marina, which unlike the Avenger was meant to be a mere stopgap for the potential follow-up that really never came (the Ital was merely putting a 'lipstick on a pig' to the Marina) rendering the Marina dead on arrival.
I own a Talbot Tagora SX and only 'ran it' for about 3 months before I killed the engine by not putting antifreeze in it during a very cold snap (-15°C) but this was actually a smart move as it only did 5 mpg. I attempted to repair the engine but failed and so it has remained in my garage for just under 30 years ! Though in the late nineties I did use it for video games (playstation) with a TV set on the bonnet!
2:10 Speaking of Mercedes-Benz, Mercedes-Benz’s then-parent company, Daimler, merged with Chrysler Corporation in 1998, but it didn’t last, as the companies de-merged in 2007, with Daimler and Chrysler becoming separate companies, and Daimler becoming simply Mercedes-Benz after the heavy truck division became a separate company.
In Britain throughout the 1960s and 1970s the trades union movement ran the economy. A significant part of union dues (membership fees) was paid to the ruling Labour Party which could not oppose the union leadership. Add to this the fact that the Trades Union Leadership had close ties to the Soviet Union and any investment in Britain just had to be a recipe for disaster. Membership of the Common Market and the scrapping of import duties on European cars was another nail in the British car industry's coffin.
One of the great ironies in that wasn't it that Labour supported joining the EC? The drop in import tariffs nearly killed Chrysler on this side of the pond as well- as they refused to build any economical cars. But the unions here were not nearly as powerful as the TGWU. Thank you for watching!
@@herrgolf unfortunately not great, they were released in 1975 and were really a case of too little to late. It’s main competition was the Holden Torana and Ford Cortina. In a straight line the Centura was fairly quick but the big 4.0 Hemi 6 would turn them into a lead tipped arrow, they are quite well sought after today.
Wonder where the idea of the Talbot Samba/ Peugeot 104 came from. A replacement for the Sunbeam but then built alongside at the same time. Real shame the Omni wasn't based on the RWD Sunbeam and not the FWD Horizon. Had no idea they made hot versions in the states untill Richard Holdner put a fechure up on his dyno testing channel
I had a 78 Plymouth Horizon, loved it - but the handling was very scary under a hard emergency steering situation, it would throw you back and forth as you tried to regain control of the wheel. I hated the VW engine, not long-lasting, but with the 2.2 I would have bought one again, if it had the same great interior, good crash tests, and reliable -
Trade Unions in the UK. They killed the UK car industry, and, unfortunately, the Chryslers were the best. Leyland? Pass me a bucket. Ford UK? Average beige cars, and surprisingly awful. Triumph? Buy a tow-truck. Rover - some semblance of quality there, but only on occasions. Jaguar/Daimler - rotten and overrated - at least the later ones. There are some other ones in the history of British cars that are absolute humdingers, but I don't believe that they were mass-production. Avengers are great. I want another one. Thanks for the extrememly well-researched and comprehensive clip. It was almost a movie, and I enjoyed it heaps.
Over here Stateside, I own a 1969 Sunbeam Alpine with 3800 original miles and aim to find, and probably have to restore, a Plymouth Cricket. But it ain't gonna be easy!
Great content, and I would only make one small suggestion - it doesn't cost very much for a decent microphone - preferably one for studio/podcast type work, or if you wanted to keep this narrated "live on screen" format, even a lavalier. Otherwise, thoroughly enjoyable, well done.
Im little off subject but not far off, does anyone know the story of AMC in Europe especially France during the 1970s? I don't know how true it is but I've heard that the Pacer not being too popular here was a absolute hit in France for some reason. I really don't know if any of that is true or not.
Rootes made some damn fine cars, although, I agree, most of them were horrid, ugly and slow. The Sunbean Rapier, Alpine, Tiger and Sceptre were pretty fine, and I defy ANYONE to destroy a Hillman Avenger/Plymouth Cricket past the point of being driveable. I've had heaps, and I SO wish I had even just one now, even a Hunter.
Even though the products looked good,Chrysler/Talbots were unreliable rustbuckets,That ultimately kills any car company.....I hope Stellantis much luck because if you look at the past,they have a busy in tray of problems to fix,least of all the amount of underperforming brands they now possess.I do think after a period of time some will be eliminated which will be very sad but I think its looking inevitable.
Great video, thanks. But what is the mystery behind on how peugeot acquired the marque "Talbot" and the strange decision to revive it other than pure randomness?
Great history about the UK end of Chrysler from the Rootes Group and the Hillman Imp bit sad what happened to Chrysler Europe and the Linwood Factory in Scotland😢
No Chrysler Europe cars got to México, except for some Simcas at the early 60s and did not leave much of a mark nor an impression. I feel the big 3 main american brands see México like a smáll branch of their local market and the source for cheap labour.
Peugeot is not pronounced POO-geot. Its the same sound in english as the sound in puppy. We don't say a small dog is a POOpy. Puppy and Peugeot are pronounced the same. Good analysis.
lol oh I definitely did, the way I did it (can't believe I remember this) is I started out with the mug full, and by the end the mug would be empty- I figured nobody would notice!
@@martintaper7997 OMG lol! I better not ever try to learn French. When I was a little kid I actually used to say "Pyoo-jit" it was hilarious. So I overcorrected with bad French ugh!
@@superadventure6297 I was just having a lend of you. The French say it like "per" (without the "r" sound if you are North American). You weren't that far away. :)
I had four Cars from the Chrysler Europe plant. Three French, and one British. A silver 1965 Simca 1300, but this banger was too far gone and ended up as a partsbin. A golden 1976 Chrysler-Simca 2L automatische, it still exists in the region of Aachen. A also golden Chrysler Avenger 1.6 GL built in 1978, first registered in Austria end of 1979. I drove the car daily until 2007. The car ist now parked by a collector in Schwäbisch Hall. And I also had a silver silver Talbot Solara SX around 2003 for my daily ride, that was sold to a French lad. I don't know, what happened to it?
I beg to differ about the Imp engine the engine was a well respected engine and we used by other manufacturers and well used by people who worked with racing cars and racing motorbikes, but you’re write the rest of the Imp was rubbish
The Imp engine, as we all know, was derived from a small fire pump engine made by Coventry Climax. The engine of itself was good but. unfortunately, the installation in the Imp was less than optimal. For instance, the cooling system was marginal as the direction of the fan blown airflow through the radiator conflicted with the aerodynamics of the rear of the car, so the faster you went, the less effective the cooling became. Also, there was a major problem with the clutch release bearing, which was made of impregnated carbon, i.e. a plain bearing, instead of a proper ball or roller bearing. Inevitably these became polished or worn and made a loud squealing noise after few thousand miles. I must have changed 3 or 4 of these during the time I had one which was a real hassle as you had to drop the engine and split the transaxle off to change it.
i hade a omni and it was a supurb car made a vw look like it belonged in a 1915 outhouse like no roadsalt problems lots more power a desent heating system no rainy understeer danger i can name 10 plus more reasons but i wont A Reterink
He was only 42 years old. I'm 42 and I can't see myself running a car company at this point. Best under the breath line ever. Almost fell on the floor laughing. Kudos.
Chrysler's operation in South Africa was a bit incongruous in the 70s. Its stalwart product was the Valiant, which was the country's best-selling car in the late 60s and early 70s and based on the American Valiant, Dart, and Duster models. The "Arrow" range was made in various permutations, fitted with the locally-made Peugeot 404 engine to meet government local-content regulations. Chrysler had taken over assembly of the strange-looking, but excellent little Mitsubishi Colt from a contract assembler and began selling Mitsubishi products, later adding the Galant GS Hardtop as a specialty model. The Avenger was launched in late 1974 as a "Dodge Avenger" and was a four-wheeled Frankenstein, with the body from Argentina, RHD gear from the UK and a locally-made Peugeot engine, replaced the following year by imported Hillman engines.
The 1973 "Fastbody" Valiants adopted the Australian design, but kept the locally-made "Slant Six" which was available with up to 190 hp! Dodge pickup trucks were assembled as well as the Dodge Husky, a pickup version of the Arrow that was different from the one made in Iran. Chrysler began manufacturing the Mitsubishi o-h-c engines locally in late 1976, when it merged operations with ILLINGS, who were responsible for Mazda in South Africa. Illings did not have its own factory and contracted assembly to Motor Assemblies, which was owned by Toyota who urged Illings to find another assembler as Toyota's sales were growing rapidly.
The Chrysler-Illings merger was called "SIGMA" and was headquartered at Chrysler's Silverton plant near Pretoria, where Mazda car assembly eventually moved. The Mazda 323 was launched in 1977 and became the fastest-selling car in South African history. The old Hillman designs were discontinued to make room on the assembly line for Madas. There was a brief merger with Leyland that only lasted a few months, and Sigma acquired the Peugeot-Citroen franchise and moved Peugeot production to Silverton from the Natalspruit plant that had, ironically, assembled all of Rootes' locally-made products! Chrysler sold its shares in Sigma to Anglo-American, a huge South African conglomerate, and the company became "AMCAR", selling Peugeots, Mazdas and Mitsubishis together.
With the political and economic situation deteriorating, Ford merged its South African operation with AMCAR in 1985, creating the South African Motor Corporation (SAMCOR), partly owned by Ford of Canada, and focused on the Ford and Mazda brands, each with its own dealer network, the latter continuing to sell Mitsubishi light commercial vehicles. The post-apartheid period saw Ford eventually taking over the operation and today the Silverton plant near Pretoria is one of the world's primary suppliers of Ford Ranger pickups.
Quite an interesting video. My father, Franklin Rogers, worked for Chrysler International from 1959 to 1980. We moved to France in 1959 when my dad was named Chrysler's financial representative to SIMCA; he learned French (sort of!) and worked at the Poissy headquarters (pronounced poi-see by the way). Tough duty as the French were glad to have the Chrysler investment but did not appreciate the oversite. In 1965 we moved to Adelaide, South Australia where my dad was Director of Finance for the company; my first cars were Hillman Imp GT's (knock down cars built in Australia from largely British parts). 875cc and 55 HP! By the way, HIllman is pronounced like Hill-Men. In 1968 back to France where Chrysler now controlled SIMCA and my dad had the line job of Director of Finance, doubtless to the chagrin of those who had previously given him a hard time. He then moved to Spain where he headed Chrysler Spain ( I saw those knockdown Darts being hand assembled at the plant; drove them too with a slant 6 and three on the floor transmission). Then back to France where he headed SIMCA, again to the great chagrin of many who thought a French person should run the company (there were serious death threats). And then--off to lovely Chrysler UK, which was as pointed out here a total nightmare. With all the constant strikes there was no way to make it work. He eventually moved to Geneva where he oversaw the winding up of Chrysler Europe...and retired in 1980. For what it is worth I drove a SIMCA 1100S all over the then Yugoslavia; and a Hillman Avenger GT from London the the North Cape of Norway; both of these trips over mostly dirt roads; the cars were really reliable and great to drive. I had SIMCA's here in the US as well during college and they were as good as any small European import at the time with dealing with American conditions. This all made for a very interesting career for my Dad, and I still have bottles of 1963 Chateau Greysac, which was owned by Henri Pigozzi and foisted on the SIMCA executives at the time!
Thanks for sharing this story. Here in Brazil we had Chrysler do Brasil S.A. due to their Simca takeover. They started their operations in 1967, and took an existing Simca to Detroit to make several improvements. The V8 derived from Ford, got a "Hemi" head improving the car's performance. The Esplanada and Regente models were created, and wore a badge saying "Made by Chrysler do Brasil"...even though they were still badged and called Simcas. The Simcas were dropped in 1969, with the introduction of the Dodge Dart, identical to the American model. Throughout the years, they didn't make a lot of different models nor major changes to the cars...2 door hardtop and 4 door sedan Darts, all powered by a 318 V8. There was a sportier version called Charger with styling cues from the american Charger. We had Dodge trucks, and a product from Chrysler Europe....the Hillman Avenger. Here it was initially named Dodge 1800 (due to its engine displacement of 1.8 liters), but due to quality issues, it was later renamed Polara. I believe that the limited investment done in Brazil, was due to these issues Chrysler faced in the US and Europe. There was a Dodge Polara 4 door station wagon concept, but was never produced, as well as a concept of a Dodge 1800 powered by Ethanol...first car in Brazil to have this alternative fuel option. Chrysler left in 1981, after VW purchase 3 years before.
When I grew up in Germany, my parents kept buying their cars from the same family-owned dealership. I was too young to follow business news. All I knew was that the dealership and the cars went from being branded Simca, then Talbot, then Peugeot. I came to the United States in 1986. That's when I found out about Chrysler's bankruptcy and sale of their European operation. It was my lightbulb moment as to why those brands back in Europe had changed.
My childhood dream was to own a Horizon. The American counterparts were readily available when I came to the U.S. But my first car ended up being a 'Vette. A 1979 Chevette. 😂
One of the key issues in the failure was the policy of placing US executives on short 3 year assignments. These executives eager to make their mark, but three years is not long enough to do it with product development so they focused on cutting cost and so quality from existing products. Rootes and Simca had a reputation of good quality products, but under Chrysler the products earned a reputation for poor quality and reliability.
Rootes did not have a body pressing plant, they relied on independent manufacturers such as Pressed Steel Fisher (PSF). The reason Linwood was chosen was that there was a PSF factory that had been making a pressed steel coal wagon for British Rail. So the deal was to build a new assembly factory on a war time torpedo factory next to the PSF plant that the government would also fund the refitting out to make Rootes bodies for Linwood and Ryton. The PSF factory was bought by Chrysler when BMC bought PSF and the government forced its sale under competition law.
This story has always fascinated me, as a child it was a source of confusion why cars like the Hunter and Avenger changed names so many times, then the names disappeared.
TBH I find it incredible that Peugeot didn't simply reinstate the Simca and Hillman names and go from there rather than using the obscure Talbot moniker. I think with a range of reskinned Peugeots, in the 1980s this might have worked well for them in the same way Skoda and Seat have done for VW. The Chrysler name was only really around for a couple of years, so the old names were still fresh in people's minds.
As an aside, my father had a 1978 Horizon. It was Talbot badged at the back, but had the Pentastar at the front and on the steering wheel... Wikipedia mentions that only the Avengers were like this but some early Talbot Horizons were the same! It also had a trip computer which was seriously cool tech at the time but never worked properly, in true French electrics fashion.
I'm pretty sure the Talbot name hung around on vans into the 1990s!
My father owned a 1977 or 1978 Simca 1307S. We had to get rid of it by the mid-1980s due to its mounting problems. It always had issues with its electrics, but these weren't the end of the world. What killed it was the engine and the complete lack of rust protection. Its original engine failed catastrophically; it was replaced with an equally unreliable second-hand unit from a 1508. At least that engine survived until we said goodbye to the car. What prompted us to make it someone else's problem was the rust. Even though it seemed fine on the outside, the floorpan had rusted really badly. And we weren't living in the dampest environment in the world, mind you; Athens (Greece) isn't known for killing cars with its climate. At any rate, I remember that, when it worked properly, it was a very agreeable car: spacious, comfortable, practical, with a well-equipped instrument cluster, and its performance was relatively lively, despite its 4-speed gearbox. As for the downsides (besides the engines and the rust), my father still criticizes the sloppy gearchange, and none of us liked how hot the vinyl seats got in the summer.
Your 'Why did Chrysler Europe fail?' points are all really valid. One factor that should be added is the cars themselves and also the brand. Simca and Rootes Group cars were quite desirable and with a distinct heritage and brand identity. Most of the Chrysler era cars however were fairly bland and anonymous. Whilst in the main competent they did not really stand out in any way.
The brand also probably did not mean much to the average European buyer (unlike Ford, Opel/Vauxhall (GM), Austin, Rover, Triumph (BL), Simca and the old Rootes Group marques). This meant that it struggled with a lack of identity. The same with Talbot, which was meant to appeal to both French and British buyers but left both wondering what it was meant to be.
Just an add from a German point of view: over here Simca was very well known for their small, practical and reliable rear engined cars. They were used at Rallyes and stood their ground against similar sized rear engined cars. Of Rootes or Barreios I never have heard at all, nor do I believe they had any sales in Germany. The last car that had at least some impact was the Horizon. Other Talbots seemed quite obscure, sales minimal at best. At that time Chrysler’s US products played no role at all, later on Jeeps and some Dodges had very limited success.
@@darkredvan Interesting to hear. I am not sure where Talbots were sold in Europe beyond the UK, France and also Spain presumably but have seen examples of Dutch and I think Scandinavian (forget which country, maybe Denmark) brochures and price lists from the early 1980s on the web.
I agree that the Horizon was probably the pick of the bunch and not a bad choice of family car in its early years of production. However, it was not updated and developed as it should have been and never really threatened the 'Holy Trinity' of Escort, Astra/Kadett and Golf. Stiff competition from favourably priced and increasingly competent Japanese cars was no doubt also a factor as Talbot seemed to be a value-oriented brand from the advertising they used.
@@paulc9588 Talbots were sold in Germany, numbers however were low. I had the (very personal) impression that Peugot after they took over Chrysler Europe had no high interest in selling Talbots at all, they were the unloved part of the Peugeot dealerships.
@@darkredvan I agree, Talbot was very much sidelined under Peugeot ownership. You could see this from the dealerships which were dominated by Peugeot. Particularly so when the 205 arrived in 1983 and stole the show.
I lived in Coventry, my father working for Chrysler Europe in purchasing from 1969 until the mid 90s, I learned to drive on Chrysler Sunbeam and Horizon and my first car was one of the last batch of Talbot Horizon built at Ryton in 1985, replaced by a Peugeot 306 and the 206 both also built at Ryton. The Horizon suffered from the Chrysler cost cutting, underpinnings being little changed from the Sinca 1100 and having minimal rust protection, although quality and corrosion resistance was much improved under Peugeot.
What about the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus?
@@DL-ls5sy It was project that resulted from the great Des ODell who ran the Chrysler / Talbot competition department, having had limited success with the BRM twin cam engine development of the Avenger engine along with some very suspect homologation for production series competition, he brokered a deal with Colin Chapman to use the Lotus 2.2 litre engine. It was all done on shoestring as was the whole competition program. However it achieved great success out of all proportion to their budget in the 2 years before the Audi Quattro hit the sport. He went on to build on a similar shoestring a 4x4 (Lancia Integrale like) Horizon using a Lotus turbo engine, but Peugeot had its own Group B plans with the 205, so the project was cancelled.
@@grahamariss2111 I have a Talbot Sunbeam Lotus. I like it very much. The engine is a masterpiece.
@@DL-ls5sy It is a lovely engine and it made the Sunbeam very special. What tune are you running, as I understand from my father who was doing the buying for the comp department only one production car was built with a 250hp competition spec engine for one of Peugeot directors in France. The rest had the standard 160hp, but I understand several since have been given the competition level of tune.
@@grahamariss2111 I have the standard engine : 155 BHP. I have also a Salisbury LSD 80 %. rather brutal and noisy. It's a good car, very reliable but if the brakes would be better, it would be great. For me, the big problem is the poor braking system.
Fascinating history! I was a designer with Talbot advanced design at Whitley in the early 80s. At the time, when I arrived, they had two concept cars (Eco 2000), both small one-box, 100mpg, 100mph, designs. As well as the Tagora. I worked briefly on the front-engined version of the Eco 2000, the other was rear engined. At a marketing clinic both designs were rejected by those taking part, apparently it was felt both cars needed bonnets! Talbot then moved to France and a short while later the one-box Renault Twingo was born to great success. Bad management and clinics have a lot to answer for. The Ford Edsel a famous example.
Thank you for that, it was very informative and I enjoyed watching. I live in Australia, here Hillman's were still known by that name after the takeover and assembled here. Chrysler Australia were looking to Japan though and chose to assemble the Mitsubishi Galant instead and the Hillman limped off the market largely unloved and not missed too much. The Galant (Dodge Colt in the US?) sold like hotcakes. The Chrysler 2 liter turned up here in 1975 badged as the Chrysler Centura. It was late to market by about two years because of union embargoes placed upon French imports because of the French governments nuclear tests in the Pacific. When it did arrive though the press loved it. It used the French 2 liter engine but had two six cylinder engines on option as well to compete with the offerings from Holden (GM) and Ford's offerings in the medium six market. One was 3.5 liter and the other was 4.0 liter. Chrysler Australia had enormous problems getting the panel fit right from the imported shells and according to the executives stories help from France to sort things out was non existant. Word spread and sales suffered. In the eighties I bought a 4.0 liter 4 speed Centura and still remember it with great fondness. Lots of interior room and boot (trunk) space that rivalled larger cars. That huge six combined with a relatively light body produced blinding acceleration along with brilliant fuel economy. It lasted to 1978 but by then in six cylinder form only. 1980 was the end of Chrysler Australia as the parent company was having a fire sale and the entire operation was sold to Mistubishi. One assembly plant, engine foundary and about 500 dealers, all gone just like that.
It was the Mitsubishi Galant in the US, a great car, the final issues were Sigma Galants ... sourly missed.
Did you get the Talbot Sunbeam in Oz?
@@johnking1381 No mate. I believe it was looked at but rejected in favour of Mitsubishi products instead. The K car was offered too but was also canned. Crazy really, just when economical front wheel drive cars were becoming the fashion. The Talbot Tagoro got very close to becoming a production reality though. It was to use both locally developed and built six cylinder engines. Too late, the axe fell and the whole thing was sold to Mitsubishi.
"union embargoes placed upon French imports because of the French governments nuclear tests in the Pacific" effecting the Centura is a fable. The Centura project didn't get the green light (March 1973) to proceed till after the UK V6 project was abandoned. 1973 and 1974 were both all time record highs for imports of French vehicle CKD parts and FBU vehicles. While the Tagora was sent over as a fibreglass model in the last days of Chrysler Australia, it didn't and couldn't have proceeded much more than a proposal.
@@jameslong9845 Yes the union embargoes put the brakes on the Centura and made it late to market. According to the excellent "Chrysler great ideas in motion" book, Talbot invited Chrysler Australia executives to Paris and offered the Tagora for local assembly. It was to use the Mitsubishi 2.6 liter four and both hemi sixes. It was seriously considered. The parent companies woes meant that that a fire sale was in order and Chrysler Australia was in their gun sights. Imagine that car up against the VB Commodore and soon to released XD Falcon.
Thanks! Most interesting, nice to see ex-employees joining in too!
Great detailed history with reference to the politics of the time. One wonders if Chrysler Europe was able to cut their losses in the UK (Linwood), they may have been able to have salvaged the European operation. Simca combined with Roy Axe's styling were very good looking cars contemporaneously (except for the Tagora - which was no worse than some later Chrysler K-car offerings). The myopia of the US Management to not cut the UK loose ultimately sunk the entire ship. This can be contrasted by the farsightedness of the French government who absorbed Simca into their industrial base, and after the Tagora model, Simca developed cars were relatively successful - Poissy still making cars and money to this day, and Ryton plant made what could be considered the last Simca design the Peugeot 309. The Renault Espace was another British design/French engineered success story, also experienced its genesis under Simca/MATRA.
Thank You! I'm glad you enjoyed this! I came to believe that the intimidating presence of Townsend (who stayed on until 1976) prevented anyone in the top mgt of Chrysler doing anything; and when Riccardo went over in 1975 he asked for a bailout but should have pulled out anyway; once the government agreed to the bailout they were on the hook to keep the plants open. Also, the collapsing sales on the American side forced them to get rid of all of Europe instead of keeping Simca because they desperately needed to avoid bankruptcy in 1978. It only kept the lights on for another year!
@@superadventure6297 The Chrysler Alpine in USSR in the 80s became Moskvitch 2141.The more you know...
I was born & raised in Germany.I saw only one Chrysler (forgot the name but it was its largest sedan) around 1975.
I am sure Chrysler Europe was hoping for fairly high sales of its models in Germany but they never had a chance against Ford & Opel.
Brilliant documentary!
This is a great history , lots of key facts, so enjoyable, thanks a lot. In Colombia, my country, Mopar had his own factory, called Chrysler Colmotores, since 1964, I guess until early 1980, selling plant and operations to a GM, all that made under Chairman Lee command. In his autobiography, by the way I just read it, the lack of internal relationships, the critical R&D departamente cut bakcs under Lynn management, to build without a dealer order, the rusty front Aspen / Volares front fenders, all that was a real mess, among many other hidden facts. In Colombia we saw the Avengers, Alpines 150, Simca 1000/1300 line up, the american Dodge Dart- Demon, 1978/1981 Aspen (renamed Dart here to continue the brand name), 1966/67 Coronet, later 1978/1981 Coronet, (a re-badged Diplomat US sample), D100/300/600 and the W/100 Power Wagon, a truly blended cake of all types of cars, what a deal, but they sold well, no inventory left. I can see that Europe market split was neccesary, due that Iaccoca`s firt target was US domestic markets. I was a spare parts sales retalier here in the 80`s and mid 90's, so all those models were good road/street performers. By thew way, with the Aspen/Dart models we didn`t have any rusty issues, because this is a tropical country, as you know. Miss all those models a lot, and let me tell you, I had head to head comparo with the C/10/30 Chevy and D100/300 Mopar model, and this last one, was better than GM truck, for example, in almost every condition and maintenance costs. Really funny, but it was real. Thanks again, very nice job.
The Horizon did not result from the UK's government bail out. The car that resulted was the Chrysler Sunbeam a super mini derived from the Avenger and built alongside it at Linwood. The Horizon was a core product the car designed to follow the Alpine (which was styled in UK and engineered in France) into the market and from very early a joint project with the USA (initiated after 73 fuel crisis). The plan was to use the same new platform in the USA (copy of the Golf), however cost cutting led to the European car using the Alpines Simca derived platform.
One of the best summary's I've seen. Perhaps the Imp wasn't the start of Rootes problems as they were in trouble before its development. The UK V6 C car didn't entirely go to waste either as resources got channelled into the Australian version (1975-77 Centura).
Hillman Imps are fantastic. A brilliant design hampered by a lack of development and a recalcitrant work force. The car was an automotive weapon. Very interesting video. Thanks.
Really useful and informative video, thank you. One small error is that the Hillman Imp was replaced by the Chrysler/Talbot Sunbeam supermini, not the Horizon. The Horizon was a larger car and basically a VW Golf competitor intended to replace the Simca 1100. Developed in Coventry and built at Linwood 1977-1981, the Sunbeam was a 3-door hatchback based on the larger Avenger. To all intents and purposes an updated Avenger (which also remained in production until 1981) but positioned below both the Horizon and ancient Avenger in the Chrysler/Talbot range. Confusing I know!
This is a point; Robson and most other writers basically say the Imp was not directly replaced. I wouldn't consider the Sunbeam hatch as a replacement because it is not really a new design (based on the existing platform) and it isn't in the same market category as the Imp (although in terms of Linwood production it basically was). The Horizon was a ground-up design that takes the place of the Imp in the small family-car category- but really it's not a direct replacement but in terms of sales &marketing I considered it was more or less...
@@superadventure6297 I would say the Sunbeam is much closer to the Imp than the Horizon. It even carried over the opening rear window! The Horizon was a market segment above, what us Europeans call a small family or 'C' segment car. If you wanted to replace your Imp with a modern supermini (Ford Fiesta, Renault 5, Datsun Cherry etc.) the Sunbeam was the obvious choice from the Chrysler stable. Not sure it matters that it was not an all-new design. The Sunbeam was in turn replaced by the Talbot Samba (basically a rebadged Peugeot 104), the equivalent of an Imp in the 1980s. It is possible to argue that the Imp was not directly replaced by the Sunbeam (ditto the Mini by the Austin Metro) but the Horizon was a different type of car that competed with the likes of the VW Golf, Vauxhall Astra and Fiat Ritmo/Strada.
The sunbeam used the imp's 1 liter engine and was produced at Linwood, however it's body was a development of the avenger's and it also used the larger 1.3 & 1.6 engines from the avenger.
Later with the introduction of a Lotus engine (using a GM crankshaft) it beat the Audi Quattro to win the World Rally Championship !
The Talbot Tagora gave me extra holly days in Spain because it broke down and got ruined for ever. As a young child it felt like a spaceship inside. It was a velour GLS. I also have a experience with a Solara GLS automatic.
When I moved from South Africa to Germany in 1987, I purchased a Tagora GLS automatic, which was available at a very attractive price. It was an excellent car with superb handling abilities and did particularly well in winter conditions. The seats were very comfortable, the interior light and roomy and the boot was huge. The square styling made it easy to park, despite being a rather large car by German standards. Consumption was typical of a car its size. My only complaint was the flimsy indicator wand and other switches, which fell as though they were ready to fall off at any moment...
I don’t know who/why the Simca brand was killed off, BUT, I had an Aronde for about a half year, until the military called. That was one of the best cars I’ve had in my 77+ years. It handled, drove, economical, and was just an all around sweet car. Wished many times over the years I still had it.
I am Dutch, living close to the sea. The main problem with Chrysler Europe products (and later Talbot) was, they rusted, even much more than conteporary competitors. The cars were OK, the Chrysler Simca Horizon even made it to European car of the year at launch.
This is a fascinating history!
The Chrysler horizon and tablot alpine actually saved both Peugeot and Chrysler. The horizon was a huge success for Chrysler in the 1980s, whilst Peugeot replaced every bit of the alpine / 1510 with Peugeot parts and called it the 405. The 205 309 and Peugeots ever since have been simca / Talbot derived east west front wheel drive models. for Peugeot the acquisition of Talbot was a dramatic leap in development. Without which you couldn't see either firm surviving
Very informative. I enjoyed it. I never knew the differences in the unions a in the UK vs. USA. A well told tale of a slow motion train wreck.
Thanks for that informative video about the Chrysler Europe story. My parents had 2 Simca, a 1100 GLS and a Horizon LS. Both are nice cars, but had some problems with rust. Guess that the rust and some other quality problems were also a reason why Chrysler or later Talbot was shut down because they sold less cars
Great video, the main problem was the cars they were building were absolutely crap.
My dad bought a brand new hunter in 1976 and it fell apart before his very eyes.
Everything on the car gave trouble, endless repairs, it drank petrol, it was a complete money pit. It went to the junkyard with 79k miles when the engine block cracked.
He never bought another British or American car ever again, our whole family went Toyota after that and never looked back.
Very good summary of Chrysler Europe’s failure! Chrysler was not alone in having “disconnected” management. I worked for British Leland in the US and the arrogance and ignorance of some of the BL managers of the US and conditions, etc. was legend! When decisions/recommendations by local country managers are ignored or overruled by someone in the home office thousands of miles and light years away in understanding, there will be big mistakes and huge losses. I doubt that the new Stelantis brand will avoid a similar fate.
I love automotive history, but have never heard this Chrysler in Europe story before. Well documented, organized and presented... Excellent job!
One factor leading to Chrysler's decline in the '70s and near bankruptcy in 1981 was its slow decline in manufacturing quality. From its earliest days, when Walter Chrysler acquired and renamed Chalmers, the company earned a reputation for superior engineerng. The first 4-wheel hydraulic brakes, one of the best early six cylinder engines, the brilliant (although ill-fated) Airflow in the '30s... military tanks in the '40s, hemi head V8 engines and one of the best early automatic transmissions in the 50s. Toward the end of the 1950s and later, Chrysler's engineering prowess became compromised by poor manufacturing execution. They led the industry in the transition to unitized bodies, but integrity was poor and rust resistance was sub-standard. They pioneered the application of electronics in engine management, but systems were unreliable and drivability was lousy. Chrysler management seemed totally ignorant of their dismal quality by the mid 70's. They could no longer manage production of their own designs in North America. The collapse of Chrysler Europe was inevitable.
I had my driving lessons (13 at all )and exams in a Simca Horizon. All my parents' cars were Simcas (1300/1501 Special) Chrysler-Simcas (1308GT) and one Talbot (Solara).
Nice docu.
Fascinating thanks.
Back in the '30's, I believe their was a car, a convertible, known as the Sunbeam Taltbot, and some other thing - a Talbot Lago? Could be very wrong on this, but my Dad, uncle and Grandfather spent heaps of time in Europe, and they spoke of these fondly.
Either that, or I've got Alzheimer's sooner than expected.
This is very clear and thorough video on Chrysler Europe and has made me understand what happened over the years.
P.S I once visited the Talbot factory in Poissy back in the 90's, I remember the big letter "T" on a large post or tower (didn't get to tour the factory unfortunately)
Very good & Interesting assessment of Chryslers attempts to compete with GM and Ford in Europe and it's demise of that venture in the European market.
Chysler I think simply didn't know it's customer service or it's base especially in France The Talbot line of cars for example was a very good example of not knowing what sort of cars fit the national Taste and stylish norms of a given market With Chysler there was an "Ugly American" attitude that basically spelled out to the sensitivity of Labor organizations i especially in The UK and in France "what's good for Chysler in the US is what good for Everyone else in Europe and elsewhere.in other words their was a pyramid style of management web the US subsidiary of Chrysler at the very top and at the very bottom the European division of Chrysler instead of both sides from both ponds working together and having respect for each other's perspective Markets, and labor and supply systems.
That kind of mindset is what Chysler out of it 's shortsightedness AND arrogance hurt Chysler on three fronts ALL at the same time.; The European market which it abandoned because of labor problems. The American market because it ignored the two oil embargo issues in 1973 and 1979 in the US effecting it's Market share and it's inability to produce smaller more fuel efficient / reliable and safe cars at that time and last but not least The emerging Asian market particularly the Japanese Market in which Chysler and the entire U.S domestic Market Whopefully underestimated the revolution and power of Japanese brand cars that were smaller , better put together cheaper and above all reliable and more fuel efficient than Detroit's clumsy poorly executed disasters that the other Detroit manufacturers arguably accept American Motors created for themselves by clearly underestimating the emerging quality and efficiency of the Japanese automobile industry. This is why Chysler almost died out by 1980 ... Not being prepared for change , knowledge of foreign markets outside of the US and bad management making poor decisions again not probably analyzing the tide of where trends were going in the automotive industry at the time...
This is fascinating. Thanks so much for this. It's great to see all those cars from my childhood in 1970s UK. I've always wondered where Talbot came from and went to. Now I know.
The same happened in Australia
I owned a 1972 Plymouth Cricket/Avenger I found that the handling was quite good and parts were cheap. I set my car up for rallying so I had to quickly replace the plastic 10 blade cooling fan (which was 10 dollars and tended to fly apart with heavy rough use also taking out the radiator I might add) with a more durable 4 bladed steel one which was 4.98 (literally 2 pieces of steel welded together and curved to draw air and balanced) BUT mine had the automatic transmission which I wasn't fond of.
I am currently restoring a 72 Cricket and hope to make it a manual.
The Omni/Horizon pair could be called the only thing of value salvaged from Chrysler's European misadventure, and, being the basis for the K-cars, it was also a big factor in Chrysler's resurgence in the 1980s. But, alas, it was only the exterior shape that the European and American Horizons had in common. None of the body panels, suspension parts or interiors were shared. This was partly because Simca, was already committed to the torsion-bar suspension architecture of the Simca 1100, not the struts Chrysler wanted for the American market and had plants with different requirements for panel assembly than what Chrysler would use in the USA. So, other than the outside appearance, the two versions of Chrysler's "world car" only shared an occasional Simca engine and Chryler's Torqueflight automatic transmissions.
I'd add another issue that plagued Chrysler Europe - failure to understand what the competition was up to. In the UK at least, Ford was the bane of the existence of many automakers there. The Avenger was released to battle the alredy dated Mk2 Cortina, while Ford outdid them by releasing the Escort and a much larger Mk3 Cortina. And the Avenger was in a odd place - about the same size as the Escort, but priced as in the Cortina range. To vindicate them, Chrysler weren't the only ones who did the same folly - British Leyland released at the same time (after the typical for BL delays at the time) the Morris Marina, which unlike the Avenger was meant to be a mere stopgap for the potential follow-up that really never came (the Ital was merely putting a 'lipstick on a pig' to the Marina) rendering the Marina dead on arrival.
I own a Talbot Tagora SX and only 'ran it' for about 3 months before I killed the engine by not putting antifreeze in it during a very cold snap (-15°C) but this was actually a smart move as it only did 5 mpg.
I attempted to repair the engine but failed and so it has remained in my garage for just under 30 years !
Though in the late nineties I did use it for video games (playstation) with a TV set on the bonnet!
2:10 Speaking of Mercedes-Benz, Mercedes-Benz’s then-parent company, Daimler, merged with Chrysler Corporation in 1998, but it didn’t last, as the companies de-merged in 2007, with Daimler and Chrysler becoming separate companies, and Daimler becoming simply Mercedes-Benz after the heavy truck division became a separate company.
In Britain throughout the 1960s and 1970s the trades union movement ran the economy. A significant part of union dues (membership fees) was paid to the ruling Labour Party which could not oppose the union leadership. Add to this the fact that the Trades Union Leadership had close ties to the Soviet Union and any investment in Britain just had to be a recipe for disaster. Membership of the Common Market and the scrapping of import duties on European cars was another nail in the British car industry's coffin.
One of the great ironies in that wasn't it that Labour supported joining the EC? The drop in import tariffs nearly killed Chrysler on this side of the pond as well- as they refused to build any economical cars. But the unions here were not nearly as powerful as the TGWU. Thank you for watching!
:) You are adorable with how nervous you are. I still enjoyed the video.
Chrysler 180 was sold in Australia as the Chrysler Centure, with a 4.0 inline "Hemi 6" from the Valiant.
How did it fare?
@@herrgolf unfortunately not great, they were released in 1975 and were really a case of too little to late. It’s main competition was the Holden Torana and Ford Cortina. In a straight line the Centura was fairly quick but the big 4.0 Hemi 6 would turn them into a lead tipped arrow, they are quite well sought after today.
I had a Talbot-Matra Murena 2.2 as a Youngtimer, fun car!
Great report most interesting.
Wonder where the idea of the Talbot Samba/ Peugeot 104 came from. A replacement for the Sunbeam but then built alongside at the same time.
Real shame the Omni wasn't based on the RWD Sunbeam and not the FWD Horizon. Had no idea they made hot versions in the states untill Richard Holdner put a fechure up on his dyno testing channel
Terrific story well told.
2:15…. Did he say Poy-see? Surely he meant to say Poissy ?
Yes. He also says "Hill-Man" instead of proper "Hillman"...
I had a 78 Plymouth Horizon, loved it - but the handling was very scary under a hard emergency steering situation, it would throw you back and forth as you tried to regain control of the wheel. I hated the VW engine, not long-lasting, but with the 2.2 I would have bought one again, if it had the same great interior, good crash tests, and reliable -
Trade Unions in the UK. They killed the UK car industry, and, unfortunately, the Chryslers were the best.
Leyland? Pass me a bucket.
Ford UK? Average beige cars, and surprisingly awful.
Triumph? Buy a tow-truck.
Rover - some semblance of quality there, but only on occasions.
Jaguar/Daimler - rotten and overrated - at least the later ones.
There are some other ones in the history of British cars that are absolute humdingers, but I don't believe that they were mass-production.
Avengers are great. I want another one.
Thanks for the extrememly well-researched and comprehensive clip. It was almost a movie, and I enjoyed it heaps.
Over here Stateside, I own a 1969 Sunbeam Alpine with 3800 original miles and aim to find, and probably have to restore, a Plymouth Cricket. But it ain't gonna be easy!
@@rumcove07 Hope you get one!
@ChryslerMan Amiga 1084 Most likely not - they acted like they WANTED to go out of business...
Good exposition of the politics.
Great content, and I would only make one small suggestion - it doesn't cost very much for a decent microphone - preferably one for studio/podcast type work, or if you wanted to keep this narrated "live on screen" format, even a lavalier. Otherwise, thoroughly enjoyable, well done.
can you imagine a 180 with a v6....rally car
Im little off subject but not far off, does anyone know the story of AMC in Europe especially France during the 1970s? I don't know how true it is but I've heard that the Pacer not being too popular here was a absolute hit in France for some reason. I really don't know if any of that is true or not.
Very interesting analysis, what a trail of disaster.
All or most of European plus Chrysler brands are under the "Stellantis" banner!
And now GM have pulled out of Europe too.
great video
That was not the Dodge Dart, it was actually the 3700 GT. The Dart was the previous model, much more similar to the American Valiant.
great video, discuss Daimler Chrysler and British leyland
Rootes made some damn fine cars, although, I agree, most of them were horrid, ugly and slow.
The Sunbean Rapier, Alpine, Tiger and Sceptre were pretty fine, and I defy ANYONE to destroy a Hillman Avenger/Plymouth Cricket past the point of being driveable.
I've had heaps, and I SO wish I had even just one now, even a Hunter.
Even though the products looked good,Chrysler/Talbots were unreliable rustbuckets,That ultimately kills any car company.....I hope Stellantis much luck because if you look at the past,they have a busy in tray of problems to fix,least of all the amount of underperforming brands they now possess.I do think after a period of time some will be eliminated which will be very sad but I think its looking inevitable.
Great video, thanks. But what is the mystery behind on how peugeot acquired the marque "Talbot" and the strange decision to revive it other than pure randomness?
Great history about the UK end of Chrysler from the Rootes Group and the Hillman Imp bit sad what happened to Chrysler Europe and the Linwood Factory in Scotland😢
No Chrysler Europe cars got to México, except for some Simcas at the early 60s and did not leave much of a mark nor an impression.
I feel the big 3 main american brands see México like a smáll branch of their local market and the source for cheap labour.
the cars rusted and rusted
I may be incorrect but I believe most of the Chrysler upper management finally got the axe when Fiat bought them.
as far as i know the hillman im never had a single alloy body panel on it!!
My father purchased a Hillman Estate Wagon in Peoria Illinois in 1966. What piece of crap. He traded it off in just over 6 months.
Peugeot is not pronounced POO-geot. Its the same sound in english as the sound in puppy. We don't say a small dog is a POOpy. Puppy and Peugeot are pronounced the same. Good analysis.
Why not have some coffee in those mugs?
lol oh I definitely did, the way I did it (can't believe I remember this) is I started out with the mug full, and by the end the mug would be empty- I figured nobody would notice!
Nice video, thanks. But please don't call Peugeot for "Poo Show". Let Google Translate teach you the pronunciation.
Yo tengo en mi poder automóviles de horizon y Simca 1200(1100], samba y talbot 180 con motor barreiros
Did you really say "Poo Show"?
I still have the script for this and nope, not once- but where in the video does it happen I'll look- it been a few months since I watched it
@@superadventure6297 You pronounced Peugeot as "Poo Show" every time!
@@martintaper7997 OMG lol! I better not ever try to learn French. When I was a little kid I actually used to say "Pyoo-jit" it was hilarious. So I overcorrected with bad French ugh!
@@superadventure6297 I was just having a lend of you. The French say it like "per" (without the "r" sound if you are North American). You weren't that far away. :)
I had four Cars from the Chrysler Europe plant. Three French, and one British.
A silver 1965 Simca 1300, but this banger was too far gone and ended up as a partsbin.
A golden 1976 Chrysler-Simca 2L automatische, it still exists in the region of Aachen.
A also golden Chrysler Avenger 1.6 GL built in 1978, first registered in Austria end of 1979. I drove the car daily until 2007. The car ist now parked by a collector in Schwäbisch Hall.
And I also had a silver silver Talbot Solara SX around 2003 for my daily ride, that was sold to a French lad. I don't know, what happened to it?
Again Lawyers and Politicians have fucked up every facit of the world.
I beg to differ about the Imp engine the engine was a well respected engine and we used by other manufacturers and well used by people who worked with racing cars and racing motorbikes, but you’re write the rest of the Imp was rubbish
The Imp engine, as we all know, was derived from a small fire pump engine made by Coventry Climax. The engine of itself was good but. unfortunately, the installation in the Imp was less than optimal. For instance, the cooling system was marginal as the direction of the fan blown airflow through the radiator conflicted with the aerodynamics of the rear of the car, so the faster you went, the less effective the cooling became. Also, there was a major problem with the clutch release bearing, which was made of impregnated carbon, i.e. a plain bearing, instead of a proper ball or roller bearing. Inevitably these became polished or worn and made a loud squealing noise after few thousand miles. I must have changed 3 or 4 of these during the time I had one which was a real hassle as you had to drop the engine and split the transaxle off to change it.
i hade a omni and it was a supurb car made a vw look like it belonged in a 1915 outhouse like no roadsalt problems lots more power a desent heating system no rainy understeer danger i can name 10 plus more reasons but i wont A Reterink
Not all the story is correct..
CenturA!!!
Poor typing skills.