This legitimises Chinas support of the EV industry and shows how shows how Tariffs at such a high level were a bad idea. Now they have to ditch the tariffs or support their green energy business in a similar fashion to the Chinese hi lighting their recent hypocrisy with regard to tariffs …. The simple fact is, China as a nation, invested in the future, Europe, The UK and USA apart from Tesla, did not… Investment brings reward, complacency brings failure…
Elon just divested from green energy by electing co president trump. Say goodbye to environmental regulations and emissions regulations next month. Elon is here for money and clout, let's stop pretending he gives a crap about the environment. Or workers. Or consumer safety.
Indeed. Now the United States is killing ASML in order to hurt China. China responded by simply making their own photolithography machine. China was perfectly fine sourcing chips from the giant chip makers. Everybody does. It's capitalism. Mass production reduces cost. It's basically the same reason Google opposed a US ban on Android in China. If the Chinese phone manufacturers can't use Android, they'll develop their own OS. These aren't difficult things to develop. They just take money/man-hours. China has it in spades. BYD has twice as many engineers as Tesla. Chinese EVs are just as good, if not better than Western EVs. They have made teardowns of Chinese EVs in Detroit and Japan. Somebody in Detroit called it an extinction level event. That's why we had to tariff them. The West couldn't compete against Huawei in 5G technology and subsequently banned them. The US has nobody competing in that segment. That's why Trump proposed that Ericsson, Nokia, Siemens or some other corporation becomes American. Then the US government can throw money at the company in order to undersell and outcompete Huawei. Trump's not a fool. The elites just hate him because he says the silent parts out loud.
what do you this "legtimizes" China's support? Most, or 80%, of EV batteries in EU come from Poland (LG) and Hungary (Samsung). Further, China's problem with their NEV is their discriminatory and predatory practices -- such as shadow-banning of foreign competitors and forcing all EV OEMs to switch to local Chinese battery suppliers -- which helped China to dominate the global battery supply-chain. China is not interested in market competition.
The EU supported Northvolt but they lack the technology to mass produce the cells. While CATL and BYD are churning groundbreaking battery technologies, Northvolt cannot keep up the pace at all. Northvolt battery tech uses rare earths while BYD and CATL are now mass producing sodium-ion batteries without anymore using rare earths.
Actually the expensive element that CATL and BYD avoided using is Nickel and Cobalt, not rare earth. That is the main reason why LFP type battery is so dominant currently
Nobody forced Northvolt to hire people from China who had never worked in a battery factory (such as CATL or BYD). They fantasize about getting the technology of battery production from an equipment supplier of CATL, which is impossible. Have you ever seen anyone learn cooking from the kitchen knife manufacturer?
Northvolt was mostly working on high-nickel batteries -- it supposedly worked on LFP and Na, but far from manufacturing. LFP is low-end batteries for small/compact EVs or ESS.
@@williammok3602 : LFP is roughly 35% of global battery market share because China dominates the global battery supply-chain. Most LFPs are in China, but just over 5% in EU.
I predicted the failure of Northvolt from the start when it was five people from Tesla who had no background in battery cell manufacturing. Battery cell manufacturing is very difficult, it is something VW Group looked into doing for itself and concluded that they would not be able to catch up with the quality and cost of existing companies. Tesla itself has struggled mightily in their own effort to achieve this. As for supporting European legacy automakers as they try to transition to EVs, the cold reality is that this is a disruption and a second disruption of autonomous driving is about to arrive, and as a rule legacy companies will die, all of them, when facing disruptions.
Billions upon billions given and loaned, incentives, subsidies and support from both the government and major automakers and technology companies. Failed because ‘no support’ lmao. You literally cannot get more support than that.
But the CEO has repeatedly stressed that they can beat China's supply chain as long as they get enough investment. The reason for his resignation is that he can no longer get investment.
@@janusjones6519 What is the point of getting billions given and loaned, incentives, subsidies, but raw materials are too expensive because of tariffs? Expensive inputs will produce expensive outputs.
@@janusjones6519 yeah sound like Nikola CEO, to get his high paycheck saved in his bank acount for several years... and after that he sold the company to the highest bid.
Northvolt fail because they try to complete in an industry that they have no chance to complete in... Second most of the machine needed to make the battery were impoprted from China which need Chinese to operate them...Having to paid Swedish wage to Swede who can not operate Chinese machine is not going to workout...The only way I see Northvolt working out is if its is sold to a Chinese company that know how to make batteries, bring in a lot Chinese staff to train Swedes how to make batteries using Chinese machine and know how...Otherwise Northvolt will fail..
China was getting ready to set up all manners of production in the EU, until Ursula imposed tariffs on Chinese EV's and talked about de-risking all the time. China has reconsidered, and ordered Chinese companies not to invest in the EU.
@@AB_123_ABAmazing how much harm this US controlled stooge has wreaked against the interests of the EU. In a recent interview, she lauded the cheaper gas from the US???, bizarro world.
I was working there, and there weren’t many Swedes in our team of eight-none, in fact. There also wasn’t much work to do. Many days, we were at max stock, waiting for the next process to consume some material so we could produce something. Some days, we hardly did anything, and on other days, we ran just one machine. That machine is supposed to be operated by two people, but we often had 4-5 people on floor. They keep saying it will get busier and we will run 4 machines all the time and only 1.5 person per machine. But that never happened they laid off almost everyone.
Northvolt was actually overly funded. It was funded so much that it was building multiple factories at once without stabilizing the first. Battery itself is not such a high-tech but mass production of quality products at controlled cost requires high-tech manufacturing. It is another shining example that a glorified sales person thinking he can borrow technology to make a tech company, which happened in Nichola. Elon himself is a tech savvy genius who appreciates engineering and he slept on the factory floor to get things right. I don't think Peter or any Swedes had done anything remotely close. Just go read what the former Northvolt engineer said about the manufacturing troubles in Reddit.
Failure to develop competitive products and blame competitors is the real failure. Small successes require friends and encouragement, while big victories require competitors and even sanctions. In this sense, it was the trade war launched during the Trump era that optimized China's manufacturing industry.
The biggest mistake was to have one monopolist company being the only hope. They failed of course, just like Tesla will eventually. What China does differently is that they support a whole industry more indirectly and let the companies within it compete and find the rightful winner. Sort of state driven market capitalism. Europe has completely misunderstood this concept and idea imo.
China identified batteries as a strategically vital industry and so has devoted significant resources (into R&D and productive capacity) to establish itself as the number 1 producer. Unfortunately we (in Europe) are not in a position to compete. To be honest, i don't think the US are in a position to compete either. But there are still plenty of industries where we retain a comparative advantage
The EU is more concerned with wasting their money in a futile war against Russia and cutting off the cheap energy supply, so no surprise this and other ventures will not succeed. The EU will turn into a group of developing countries in the next 15-20 years if they don't change their policy very soon.
@@tooltalk How many LGs, Samsungs, and SKs can the EU use? In the past 2023, the EU sold 15 million cars, and electric vehicles accounted for 30%? In 2023, China's car sales reached 30 million, and this year electric vehicles have exceeded 50%! That is to say, after the batteries are produced, they need to be sold together with the cars, so that battery manufacturers can have more funds to research new batteries! Yes, a new round of competition for safer and larger capacity solid-state batteries has begun! Japan, China, and the United States are all working hard, and then deploying the batteries they have researched on cars produced in their own countries! The world is divided, and the West uses the concept of democracy to exclude China! I can’t imagine that Japan’s solid-state batteries will first appear in the Chinese automotive supply chain. The United States disagrees, and Japan will not agree! Hatred permeates their society!
@@shkunwen You clearly have no idea how the industry works. The EV batteries are not commodity goods that are stocked in warehouse waiting for buyers. Automakers and their battery supply-chain must plan ahead, procure supplies and capacity years in advance. Since 2015, China banned all foreign battery makers and forced all EV OEMs to switch to local Chinese suppliers to distort the market.
While Europe legacy auto thinks about competition, you have Tesla collaborating. Legacy proudness will inevitably be their demise. Be humble. Collaborate.
It’s never made any sense to me that we condemn China for supporting their successful industries, don’t support ours and wonder why they fail. Surely that’s exactly what any forward thinking politician should insist we do.
What is wronging partnering with a Chines company capable to compete in the the sub $50/kWh market. As I understand Tesla has decided that LFP technology has a place in their market and are installing a manufacturing line in their Nevada plant produced by CATL own subcontractors to produce LFP batteries that qualify for the US sourced battery. Chinese industrials are not shy to do deals that allow them to get a foothold wherever. It is just the price without loosing ownership. Copy Tesla's LFP example: Tesla paid for the line upfront and their personal will end-up running it. Follow the leader......
@ yes because apparently CATL retained ownership. What Musk did was to pay the CATL production line manufacturers to supply and install, then he paid for CATL technicians to commission the line.
I know nothing about Northvolt or any of the underlying technical or economic issues, but I think they failed because they had too much clink on the grubbnuts and 'cos the plug went in some Tizer.
The reason for their failure is bigger than these, the Western culture and society have changed so much for the last 10 years, their DEI culture mess up their society base, the Chinese engineers and specialists working with Northvolt have lots of to say: 1 Their workers have no basic knowledge about their job or safety protocol, one Chinese engineer said most of Northvolt's workers seems coming from lots of different places, not able to communicate with each others, and base on their skill or knowledge, he doesn't belive anyone of them have finished high school. 2 Their procurement manager seems have no idea anything work, knowing anything about the spec of the machine, or how tax works. 3 Their battery manufacture specialist doesn't undertand why you shouldn't use hydrogen replacing helium during the test.......... 4 Their lead engineer team coming from Japan, not China nor Korea, and not even from Panasonic, these engineers don't even match the lv of intern students from CATL. 5 In the last 6 month Northvolt is in full panic mode, asking help from all the outsources, one Chinese tech specialist got to see their full design and workflow, after that he even doubted this is a real company, because in China, there are some start up EV and battery companies are just fraud for government sub, but even they are more serious than Northvolt's design and tech.
@dallysinghson5569 DEI has ruined their education system, so no qualify workers nor leadership that's the base of their problem, it's idiocracy in real life.
When Chinese are moving at such a fast pace, that's a massive loss of capital, time and resources. Any idea who is holding the shit sandwich coming out of this debacle?
@@janusjones6519 Bro $9 billions tax payers change is a huge of pile of bags. If that's not being accounted for then there's a bigger problem in the system than a stupid battery factory going belly up.
@@f1aziz Northvolt Sweden just got a new CEO. Can get higher, I guess. But the European taxpayers have been ripped off far worse than that. The Iraq War, for example.
This legitimises Chinas support of the EV industry and shows how shows how Tariffs at such a high level were a bad idea. Now they have to ditch the tariffs or support their green energy business in a similar fashion to the Chinese hi lighting their recent hypocrisy with regard to tariffs …. The simple fact is, China as a nation, invested in the future, Europe, The UK and USA apart from Tesla, did not… Investment brings reward, complacency brings failure…
Elon just divested from green energy by electing co president trump. Say goodbye to environmental regulations and emissions regulations next month. Elon is here for money and clout, let's stop pretending he gives a crap about the environment. Or workers. Or consumer safety.
Absolutely Correct Chris
Indeed. Now the United States is killing ASML in order to hurt China. China responded by simply making their own photolithography machine.
China was perfectly fine sourcing chips from the giant chip makers. Everybody does. It's capitalism. Mass production reduces cost. It's basically the same reason Google opposed a US ban on Android in China. If the Chinese phone manufacturers can't use Android, they'll develop their own OS.
These aren't difficult things to develop. They just take money/man-hours. China has it in spades. BYD has twice as many engineers as Tesla. Chinese EVs are just as good, if not better than Western EVs. They have made teardowns of Chinese EVs in Detroit and Japan. Somebody in Detroit called it an extinction level event. That's why we had to tariff them. The West couldn't compete against Huawei in 5G technology and subsequently banned them. The US has nobody competing in that segment. That's why Trump proposed that Ericsson, Nokia, Siemens or some other corporation becomes American. Then the US government can throw money at the company in order to undersell and outcompete Huawei. Trump's not a fool. The elites just hate him because he says the silent parts out loud.
what do you this "legtimizes" China's support? Most, or 80%, of EV batteries in EU come from Poland (LG) and Hungary (Samsung). Further, China's problem with their NEV is their discriminatory and predatory practices -- such as shadow-banning of foreign competitors and forcing all EV OEMs to switch to local Chinese battery suppliers -- which helped China to dominate the global battery supply-chain. China is not interested in market competition.
@tooltalk That's business, tariffs won't help... Legacy cars are just too expensive and not good enough
The EU supported Northvolt but they lack the technology to mass produce the cells. While CATL and BYD are churning groundbreaking battery technologies, Northvolt cannot keep up the pace at all. Northvolt battery tech uses rare earths while BYD and CATL are now mass producing sodium-ion batteries without anymore using rare earths.
Actually the expensive element that CATL and BYD avoided using is Nickel and Cobalt, not rare earth. That is the main reason why LFP type battery is so dominant currently
@MarkTrinidad, NorthVolt has also been working on Na-ion battery cells.
Nobody forced Northvolt to hire people from China who had never worked in a battery factory (such as CATL or BYD).
They fantasize about getting the technology of battery production from an equipment supplier of CATL, which is impossible.
Have you ever seen anyone learn cooking from the kitchen knife manufacturer?
Northvolt was mostly working on high-nickel batteries -- it supposedly worked on LFP and Na, but far from manufacturing. LFP is low-end batteries for small/compact EVs or ESS.
@@williammok3602 : LFP is roughly 35% of global battery market share because China dominates the global battery supply-chain. Most LFPs are in China, but just over 5% in EU.
why would the west think they can build batteries much cheaper than China…..that’s a serious IQ question.
I predicted the failure of Northvolt from the start when it was five people from Tesla who had no background in battery cell manufacturing. Battery cell manufacturing is very difficult, it is something VW Group looked into doing for itself and concluded that they would not be able to catch up with the quality and cost of existing companies. Tesla itself has struggled mightily in their own effort to achieve this.
As for supporting European legacy automakers as they try to transition to EVs, the cold reality is that this is a disruption and a second disruption of autonomous driving is about to arrive, and as a rule legacy companies will die, all of them, when facing disruptions.
I don't think Northvolt failure is because it did not receive enough support. You cannot create a supply chain out of nothing.
Billions upon billions given and loaned, incentives, subsidies and support from both the government and major automakers and technology companies. Failed because ‘no support’ lmao. You literally cannot get more support than that.
But the CEO has repeatedly stressed that they can beat China's supply chain as long as they get enough investment.
The reason for his resignation is that he can no longer get investment.
@@amandagrant4331 yes because after tens of billions invested with nothing to show, it's a little hard to keep up the lie
@@janusjones6519
What is the point of getting billions given and loaned, incentives, subsidies, but raw materials are too expensive because of tariffs?
Expensive inputs will produce expensive outputs.
@@janusjones6519 yeah sound like Nikola CEO, to get his high paycheck saved in his bank acount for several years... and after that he sold the company to the highest bid.
Northvolt fail because they try to complete in an industry that they have no chance to complete in...
Second most of the machine needed to make the battery were impoprted from China which need Chinese to operate them...Having to paid Swedish wage to Swede who can not operate Chinese machine is not going to workout...The only way I see Northvolt working out is if its is sold to a Chinese company that know how to make batteries, bring in a lot Chinese staff to train Swedes how to make batteries using Chinese machine and know how...Otherwise Northvolt will fail..
China was getting ready to set up all manners of production in the EU, until Ursula imposed tariffs on Chinese EV's and talked about de-risking all the time. China has reconsidered, and ordered Chinese companies not to invest in the EU.
China is now building battery manufacturing factory in Morocco.
@@AB_123_ABAmazing how much harm this US controlled stooge has wreaked against the interests of the EU. In a recent interview, she lauded the cheaper gas from the US???, bizarro world.
I was working there, and there weren’t many Swedes in our team of eight-none, in fact. There also wasn’t much work to do. Many days, we were at max stock, waiting for the next process to consume some material so we could produce something.
Some days, we hardly did anything, and on other days, we ran just one machine. That machine is supposed to be operated by two people, but we often had 4-5 people on floor.
They keep saying it will get busier and we will run 4 machines all the time and only 1.5 person per machine.
But that never happened they laid off almost everyone.
@@matejdrabek6982 so basicly the machine is capable of doing the production. maybe the demand in eu to produce more ev is not there.
Northvolt was actually overly funded. It was funded so much that it was building multiple factories at once without stabilizing the first. Battery itself is not such a high-tech but mass production of quality products at controlled cost requires high-tech manufacturing. It is another shining example that a glorified sales person thinking he can borrow technology to make a tech company, which happened in Nichola. Elon himself is a tech savvy genius who appreciates engineering and he slept on the factory floor to get things right. I don't think Peter or any Swedes had done anything remotely close. Just go read what the former Northvolt engineer said about the manufacturing troubles in Reddit.
Failure to develop competitive products and blame competitors is the real failure. Small successes require friends and encouragement, while big victories require competitors and even sanctions. In this sense, it was the trade war launched during the Trump era that optimized China's manufacturing industry.
The biggest mistake was to have one monopolist company being the only hope. They failed of course, just like Tesla will eventually. What China does differently is that they support a whole industry more indirectly and let the companies within it compete and find the rightful winner. Sort of state driven market capitalism. Europe has completely misunderstood this concept and idea imo.
China identified batteries as a strategically vital industry and so has devoted significant resources (into R&D and productive capacity) to establish itself as the number 1 producer. Unfortunately we (in Europe) are not in a position to compete. To be honest, i don't think the US are in a position to compete either. But there are still plenty of industries where we retain a comparative advantage
Don't worry. Von der Leyen got this😅
Urasula and Carlsson are both good at boasting but unable to make achievements.
@amandagrant4331 They are destroying the eu. Everything she touches turns to poisen.
The EU is more concerned with wasting their money in a futile war against Russia and cutting off the cheap energy supply, so no surprise this and other ventures will not succeed. The EU will turn into a group of developing countries in the next 15-20 years if they don't change their policy very soon.
No point funding the war chest of a hostile country.
"Elon musk vision..." = Bankruptcy
its not because nobody supporting. thats because the battery cannot pass safety requirements from car makers. that's why nobody use northvolt battery
Build a supply chain anti China, what a genius move!
Most EV batteries in the EU are already made in Poland and Hungary, by LG, Samsung, SK and other leaders in the industry.
@@tooltalk How many LGs, Samsungs, and SKs can the EU use? In the past 2023, the EU sold 15 million cars, and electric vehicles accounted for 30%? In 2023, China's car sales reached 30 million, and this year electric vehicles have exceeded 50%! That is to say, after the batteries are produced, they need to be sold together with the cars, so that battery manufacturers can have more funds to research new batteries! Yes, a new round of competition for safer and larger capacity solid-state batteries has begun! Japan, China, and the United States are all working hard, and then deploying the batteries they have researched on cars produced in their own countries! The world is divided, and the West uses the concept of democracy to exclude China! I can’t imagine that Japan’s solid-state batteries will first appear in the Chinese automotive supply chain. The United States disagrees, and Japan will not agree! Hatred permeates their society!
@@shkunwen You clearly have no idea how the industry works. The EV batteries are not commodity goods that are stocked in warehouse waiting for buyers. Automakers and their battery supply-chain must plan ahead, procure supplies and capacity years in advance.
Since 2015, China banned all foreign battery makers and forced all EV OEMs to switch to local Chinese suppliers to distort the market.
While Europe legacy auto thinks about competition, you have Tesla collaborating. Legacy proudness will inevitably be their demise. Be humble. Collaborate.
???
It’s never made any sense to me that we condemn China for supporting their successful industries, don’t support ours and wonder why they fail. Surely that’s exactly what any forward thinking politician should insist we do.
You are missing one thing with the location - the ample supply of relatively cheap, renewable hydropower
What is wronging partnering with a Chines company capable to compete in the the sub $50/kWh market. As I understand Tesla has decided that LFP technology has a place in their market and are installing a manufacturing line in their Nevada plant produced by CATL own subcontractors to produce LFP batteries that qualify for the US sourced battery. Chinese industrials are not shy to do deals that allow them to get a foothold wherever. It is just the price without loosing ownership. Copy Tesla's LFP example: Tesla paid for the line upfront and their personal will end-up running it. Follow the leader......
@@RAHellemans catl offered a US factory. Then a jv with Ford. Then just licensing the tech to Ford. The US Congress went nuts and shut it down
Ursulavondeleyen would not have it. Whytesuperiority is more valuable to her.
Ursula prefers the scheme of making batteries "independently", even by swindlers like Northvolt.
@ So that strategy will get the EU the battery capacity we will need to make our intermittent renewable energies (wind and solar) to work for us?
@ yes because apparently CATL retained ownership. What Musk did was to pay the CATL production line manufacturers to supply and install, then he paid for CATL technicians to commission the line.
I know nothing about Northvolt or any of the underlying technical or economic issues, but I think they failed because they had too much clink on the grubbnuts and 'cos the plug went in some Tizer.
It's all about arrogance and denial of reality.
The reason for their failure is bigger than these, the Western culture and society have changed so much for the last 10 years, their DEI culture mess up their society base, the Chinese engineers and specialists working with Northvolt have lots of to say:
1 Their workers have no basic knowledge about their job or safety protocol, one Chinese engineer said most of Northvolt's workers seems coming from lots of different places, not able to communicate with each others, and base on their skill or knowledge, he doesn't belive anyone of them have finished high school.
2 Their procurement manager seems have no idea anything work, knowing anything about the spec of the machine, or how tax works.
3 Their battery manufacture specialist doesn't undertand why you shouldn't use hydrogen replacing helium during the test..........
4 Their lead engineer team coming from Japan, not China nor Korea, and not even from Panasonic, these engineers don't even match the lv of intern students from CATL.
5 In the last 6 month Northvolt is in full panic mode, asking help from all the outsources, one Chinese tech specialist got to see their full design and workflow, after that he even doubted this is a real company, because in China, there are some start up EV and battery companies are just fraud for government sub, but even they are more serious than Northvolt's design and tech.
DEI had nothing to do with this you silly goat.
The remaining factors you listed barely touch base.
@dallysinghson5569 DEI has ruined their education system, so no qualify workers nor leadership that's the base of their problem, it's idiocracy in real life.
When Chinese are moving at such a fast pace, that's a massive loss of capital, time and resources. Any idea who is holding the shit sandwich coming out of this debacle?
Private invests seem to be losing some $20 billion. European taxpayers lose $9 billion. Something like that.
@@grisflyt I don't care for the investors but taxpayers losing $9 billions should be a big deal, heads should roll over this.
@@f1aziz9b is a drop in the ocean. Heads have not rolled for far, far more than
@@janusjones6519 Bro $9 billions tax payers change is a huge of pile of bags. If that's not being accounted for then there's a bigger problem in the system than a stupid battery factory going belly up.
@@f1aziz Northvolt Sweden just got a new CEO. Can get higher, I guess. But the European taxpayers have been ripped off far worse than that. The Iraq War, for example.
circlig the drain, dow in free falls, economy in tatters, noting left to hock, azz in slung, butts hurt alot, sepewqu
Theese kind of subsidies that you wish are seldom a good thing.
This reminds me of Axiom.
EV are rubbish. I will never buy one. Just use some logic for Heaven's sake. Start by understanding the 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics.
The wise one taught me to never say never.
If you really understood laws of thermodynamics, then you should know that EVs are far more efficient than ICE
@@janusjones6519 I do and you don't.
Thermodynamics cannot disprove affordability. Also EV is not always charged cleanly