Another reason Teferi's is so much stronger in Commander is that you have three opponents, all fighting each other. If one of them has a game-ending combo while you're protected, they can just use it on one of the other two, and leave you alone rather than waiting!
Arcane Denial is one of my favorites. Sometimes you end up with a dead card in your hand and if you cast that and counter it with arcane denial you draw 3 cards. Poor mans Ancestral Recall.
Swan song at least used to see play in Legacy sneak and show sideboards. It is quite flexible counter and giving opponent bird matters little against Griselbrand.
@@TheEmeraldboy100 Yeah, its best in or against combo decks. Giving your opponent a 2/2 doesn't matter when you're winning on the spot. On the flip side, giving your opponent a 2/2 doesn't matter when they don't win through combat damage. They'll probably just chump an attack with it, and the time that buys them is less than the time you gained by using Swan Song on some important combo piece or tutor.
It's worth noting that another big factor for shrines is that they're all legendary, which makes drawing multiple of the same shrine detrimental typically. Since you can only run 1 of any card in commander, drawing multiple shrines is just not possible.
That comes at the cost of consistency. Shrines suffer from having to balance consistency with variety. Highlander formats force all decks to lose consistency, which is less painful on shrines, since they already have less consistency.
funny side note on fist of suns, if you're playing a 5 color tribal deck like lets use The Ur-Dragon for example, if you combine that with Morophon the Boundless, naming dragons as his creature type. You can play dragons for free by using fist of suns to cast them for WUBRG and Morophon makes the creature type you chose cost WUBRG less to cast. a neat little interaction but devastating in the right decks
The biggest factor for Arcane Denial I see missed here is that unlike Counterspell, it only requires one blue pip to cast. That’s huge if you are in multiple colors. In five color decks, it’s very possible to not even get the right fixing for two blue pips by the time the game ends, especially with a budget.
I’m surprised smothering tithe isn’t on the list, unless I missed something and I’m wrong about it being used in other formats, smothering tithe is basically a commander only card as far as I’m aware.
@@robertbadgley6291 *shrug* I started playing Magic a few sets later, in Eldraine. I never saw that particular combo. I did see Smothering Tithe with some Aristocrats decks, where the goal was to outlast your opponent, and the card draw at your upkeep was enough to fuel the Tithe.
Also with torment, it's hitting 3 players, allowing you to end a came or disrupt everyone. Where as a single threat will only get on one one person, or be removed before anything.
A fun type of effect that could've been on this list are the symmetrical effects or downside effects that target only one opponent. In commander, suddenly the effect that usually leaves you -1 in card advantage can instead leave you at -1 +2 +2, which is a lot better. They're also great fun for diplomacy minded players, especially with playgroups that are less explosive in power.
yeah pretty much all politic cards only see play in commander(or the very rarly played other multiplayer formats), the asymetrical ones like death by dragons, the whole goad mechanic, voting, ect ect
One little complaint I have, as a long time EDH player: Sanctum of All and Fist of Suns are _not_ EDH staples. They're both pretty narrow and only played in specific decks. Sanctum is only played in Shrine decks, and Fist of Suns is only played in a small number of 5c decks. Also, Swan Song is played in other formats, solely for being a 1 mana hard counter. A few suggestions for alternatives for those slots: Cabal Coffers / Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth / Yavimaya Cradle of Growth, Smothering Tithe, Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile, Rhystic Study, Blasphemous Act, Vandalblast, Nature's Lore / Farseek / Three Visits
Most of these cards are too good in other formats. The only card on this list that's uniquely good in Commander is Smothering Tithe, all the other ones would be excluded for seeing too much play in other formats already.
Cabal coffers is used in several modern decks, urborg is in almost every black deck in modern and pioneer and even sees some play in legacy, swords and path are still used in every format you can play them, rhystic study is technically correct because it will never be legal in any format it has any ability to be good in, but still gets used in some weird legacy decks.
Teferi's Protection is also made better in multi-player because while you're essentially out of the game, the other opponent's aren't. Fog stops all combat damage, but if you Teferi's instead, you can save yourself from death while two of your opponents are removed so you only need to deal with one opponent. Add in the greater amount of board wipes that are played since almost every deck plays a few (unlike 1v1 games, where some decks don't want to wrath the board) and it becomes a lot better of a card. There's also the combo it has with cards like Lethal Vapors to basically skip the rest of the game unless your opponent has a way to either win or not deck out, and it's obvious why it's a staple in any deck with White.
My favorite commander power disparity has to be Skullclamp, and it’s in the other direction. Clamp is an infamously powerful card, and it’s absolutely still strong in commander, but highly-tuned decks often don’t end up needing it. So instead, clamp is primarily used to give weaker or jankier decks a leg up in card advantage that they can’t get anywhere else. Something about one of the most unfun cards in the game promoting fun just tickles me.
Ngl I have actually drawn into a wincon using Skullclamp in my (arguably) mid-tier Brudiclad deck so I feel this. Skullclamp is basically an auto-include in any deck I build that makes tokens or sacrifices creatures.
@@yummines yeah its absurd. i dont remember who but a MTG youtuber made a video showing the changes Skullclamp went through in its design process and how the card changed from a completely fair, kind of okay card into one of the best equipments in commander. It was a good watch and shows how wizards will still make mistakes when designing cards *cough* Oko *cough*
Just found your channel, I really like your content! I’ve been playing for over 10 years and I think your card-by-card analysis is outstanding in both depth and accuracy while still being accessible to newer players.
Great video, I'll have to show it to my friend. He's new to commander, but played a lot of modern, and its hard to explain to him why some cards are so much better (or worse) in commander. Keep it up!👍
I am kinda disappointed you didn't mention Morophon the Boundless' synergy with Fist of Suns. It allows you to freecast whatever spells you have that have the type you chose with Morophon.
Or how it’s used nearly exclusively with Jodah who gives you the option of casting everything for WUBRG. So fist makes everything free with her on the field.
@@VVheeli you're on the right track. Fist of suns doesnt make everything free with Jodah BUT it is an extra jodah in your deck in case he's died a few times and is expensive to cast
While true, that's a bit of a niche deck. And it could be argued a better strategy to use generic mana reducers (urzas incubator, semblence anvil, heartless summoning) and run monophonic as a 1 or 2 colour deck. I say this, because, unlike fist, the generic cost reducers reduce the cost of monophonic itself. And assuming every creature you play shares the tribe you call, and only has 1 colour pip, your creatures functionally become free anyways.
One thing you keep forgetting is the prevalence of politics in commander, since it's four people all trying to win alliances are unavoidable, which also affects how card advantage is considered. Card that help you both you AND one opponent fare better in commander because of that, particularly since you can also help an opponent stopping a second opponent about to win so that you might still have a chance later. Scheming Symmetry is often used this way, making an opponent tutor for an answer to the current main problem while you look for what you want. This also helps offset the downside of Arcane Denial. Also, Mystic Remora is worse than Rhystic Study in commander due to the non-creature clause and cumulative upkeep. Commander is a slower enough format that usually you can pretty easily play around Remora by stalling for time and just putting down creatures, until the controller lets it go, while Rhystic Study is a tax on every single spell that won't get away on its own, making it overall better. It costs more, but in commander is not that much of a difference. As for staples, I honestly didn't expect to see Sanctum of All (sanctuaries are not as bad, but still much played in commander) and I would have expected something like Expropriate. It might have fallen out of favor, but it's still a pretty good game-ender.
You’re just straight up wrong lol. Mystic remora is significantly stronger than rhystic study. Expropriate is awful. Most of the cards on this list weren’t even that good in commander.
@@wizardsmix7961 it's always nice when you take care to argument and people just answer "you are wrong bleah". Good job, you proved you are smarter than everyone else. Sorry, though, you won't get cookies or belly rubs.
Mystic remora is actively better than rhystic for every reason rhystic isn't good in other formats. Remora is an early game power house where you draw cards while people are actively trying to set up the board. If they're "playing around Remora" they're not playing mana rocks, ramp spells, etc. It is basically impossible to pay the tax, even late game so it's not totally useless while interaction is required to play as well. Remora is an incredibly good card. Study however, costs more and more often than not IS just a tax that gets paid because players realize if they pay the tax... You don't run away with the game. And then later, someone can remove it if the tax is becoming a problem. Study, is not a bad card in commander. It's a one sided tax on EVERY card. Remora, is just better for what people _want_ study to be.
I don't know if this ever saw play in another format, but I'd doubt it due to it's more limited scope and high cost... Painful Quandary is a card I mentioned in another of your videos that scales incredibly well in commander. Being able to force your opponents to either discard or lose life for every spell they play really starts to add up, and while losing 5 life isn't AS big in commander as other formats, it's still enough that it does put you on a clock to find an answer to it or die, especially since decks playing it are probably also hitting your life with other effects in addition to this. Another that's really good in commander that's probably not as great elsewhere is Serra Ascendant. The card is a 1/1 lifelink for 1, but if you have 30 or more like becomes a 6/6 flier with lifelink for 1. This is an incredibly powerful card since unlike in other formats, it can come down turn 1 as a 6/6 and start to really do some serious damage and gain you a lot of life very early on. Starting at 40 life means it's always a very powerful turn 1 play (usually I'd opt for it over a Sol Ring even if it's in my opening hand) and doesn't have the extra hoop to jump through to have 30 life you'd have to have in other formats. It's actually a threat here whereas elsewhere it might be more of a "win more" type of card.
Sabertooth is also good tech for putting a commander into your hand. Which allows some commanders with X cost abilities to get recast where flicker doesn't work.
Fist of suns probably sees the most success when paired with Morophon the Boundless. Morophon is an any-tribal commander that gives all creatures of your chosen type the ability to be cast for WUBRG rather than their regular cost. If you’re only paying WUBRG for your creatures then fist of suns (and Jodah) reduces that to 0 mana. Considering you’d only be running Morophon if you were playing a lot of creatures of that one creature type, this means most of the cards in your deck you want to cast are now 0 mana to cast.
17:23 There's also a combo that involves losing infinite turns with LETHAL VAPORS*** or chronatog and casting this to make everyone deck out. Works in legacy at least, but more of a Johnny strat
Lethal Vapors. It requires extra setup though. If you don't have something that stops others from using abilities on your turn or find a way to kill Lethal Vapors without passing priority, the opponents just activate it as many times as you do. Worse case scenario, someone has a Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac/Jace and they get a free win. A "damage can't be prevented" card also gives a win since commander damage is like poison, it doesn't matter if you lose life or not, if you reach 21 you're dead. Otherwise an Eldrazi titan in the deck or a Zenith card stops it as well.
@@Seedmember Yeah this is more of a Magic Online strategy. You need to use something like Faith Healer or Final Payment to get rid of Lethal Vapors without passing priority, and otherwise it's hard
The best feeling in the world is casting Triumph of the Hordes and then Chandra's Ignition with a giant creature in play, thus hitting the entire table with ten poison in one shot. I've won a bunch of games with my Mayael deck this way. And it works perfectly because on their own, I have either a boardwipe or a way to KO one player, depending on which is in my hand. But with both...game over.
Thanks for the excellent explanation regarding the counter spells in commander. I never really understood why anyone would play that card since it lets your opponent draw but now it makes perfect sense! Love your channel by the way.
A couple of nitpicks - - There is no way that Temur Sabertooth is a better commander card than Rhystic Study. The Study is one of the format's boogeymen, the thing you always dread seeing hit the table. And both of them saw effectively no competitive play, so that shouldn't really affect the list at all. - The lack of Smothering Tithe is wild to me. Tithe sees no serious play in non-Commander formats as far as I know, and is arguably even more brutal than Rhystic Study, as so many spells draw cards, the tax is higher, extra mana is just that good, and you always get at least one trigger off of that player's draw step.
Regarding the first thing, the list is about the discrepancy in power, not how good they are in Commander. Study is kind of ok in other formats, whereas Sabertooth is straight up bad in most formats. While study is better, Sabertooth has the bigger discrepancy.
Torment of Hailfire are my most common wincon on my golgari deck and each time people are like "again, he win by this card" Usually i spend 36 mana on the X but for the record, i spend 160 mana in the X cost.
How good is Smothering Tithe outside Commander? I would imagine a 4 mana do nothing is actually a pretty heavy cost, and doesn't pay off against most decks until like 4 turns later.
Fog and pseudo-fog effects are played somewhat commonly (B-tier probably) in pauper. There are combo decks that rely on them (stream of thought combo) as well as control decks (stonehorn dignitary in jeskai ephemerate for example) and even aggro and midrange decks that rely on them to influence their clocks (screechgate and prismatic strands as an example). I surprisingly see fogs more in pauper than I do in commander. Pauper even has a combo deck called turbofog.
Teferi’s is mainly good because it more or less allows you to skip 3 opposing turns of interaction. Only skipping one turn for 3 mana is not good enough in 1v1.
Fist of Suns isn't that good in commander anyways, you are restricted only to 5-color decks because color identity; so it's only useful in decks like Jodah or Morophon
Torment of hailfire was good in standard at the time It's a insane game ender with a black midrange deck and if you're applying pressure with creatures you either slash their life to force them to block all your creatures or destroy so many permanents you'll drown them in advantage
Smothering tithe (not on this list) also saw some standard play, I think this list leans heavier to cards that saw no eternal format play post rotations
On swan song. It is poggers if you build a white/blue soul sister's deck. You turn its downside into a massive benefit if you have soul warden or one of its variants on the field, Ajani's pridemate and Archangel of thune and is probably the best counter spell for a white/blue soul sisters deck, being that its downside becomes a massive benefit to the deck
My friend has a 60 card deck called The Grix Tickler, that has just a ton of disruption and draw/scry to keep finding Flame Slash or the like, to survive until he has a bunch of lands, and then starts casting X-cost spells like Torment of Hailfire. It's a casual deck but it was cruel and stylish. I think it had only one creature, maybe Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.
I think Sanctum of All is still bad in commander. But it really is wild remembering that two of the craziest Commander original cards (Dockside and TefPro) are like massive who cares in other formats.
While most decks try to run some enchantment hate, it's still one of the hardest types of permanent to interact with. And you're still a lot less likely to just get aggroed down before you can even drop a 5-mana threat.
Another thing about rhystic study is that your opponents are much more likely to give you cards in commander than in 1v1. When I have 3 opponents, paying mana to an opponents study is only preventing me from going -1 against 1 of my 3 opponents rather than going -1 against my sole opponent.
Yup. Paying the mana tax is advantageous to all three opponents, giving the Rhystic user a card is advantageous to one. Plus that advantage is less likely to be turned against you. What's your opponent going to do, go for the one that's giving them card advantage first? No no, they're going to go for the other two. If you're on the receiving end of this card, sell the others out and hope you can pull off something sneaky while the one playing Rhystic is dealing with them.
I would say sera ascendant. A 1 white 1/1 with lifelink that gains +5/+5 and flying if you have above 30 life. While decent in other formats if you can get above its threshold, in commander where you have 40 life to start it is an amazing value card for its mana cost that will be hard to block and net you more life.
it gets +5/+5 when you're above 30 life*, but yeah its an absurdly strong card in commander. Turn 1 serra ascendant makes you an immediate target and its almost impossible to block in the early game so you get massive lifegain swings
How about top 10 Retrain cards. I was thinking about retrain cards after looking at the Suspend retrains of banned/restricted cards such as Sol Talisman (Sol Ring) and Wheel of Fate (Wheel of Fortune)
Rhystic study is pretty funny. In normal magic the effect that is better for your opponent is worse for you, but in a 4 player environment letting you have the card is better both for you and your opponent. So forcing your opponent to make the choice that is worse for them would be quite determinental to you, you want them to choose to let you draw a card
I would not include Dockside Extortionist nor Teferi's Protection, as those were custom made for Commander and originated from Commander Products, where they generally push card power level. The other 8 were all from standard sets where, despite their shortcomings in a low power format, still make it in commander today. I would have thrown in Zendikar Resurgent and any of the prison effects like Propagnda, Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Safety, etc.
I mean, just because they were made for commander, doesn't mean they still don't apply to this list. They are legal in eternal formats, don't specify commander, and fit the criteria. As well, both have seen some form of reprint in a non-commander focused draft set. (Archive version from strixhave for tef pro, and double masters for dockside)
@@krvys7226 @Krvys Reprints in a supplemental product that doesnt affect the legality of a card(except pauper) doesnt change the fact they are literally pushed cards for the commander format with that format in mind. Not only that, these cards are only legal in Vintage and Legacy cause wotc stated all supplementary products just become legal in those format. They weren't added to those format by the normal means of type 1(now standard), but from products cater made to a format where power levels can be much higher than the norm and it would be fine. It just feels unfair that cards that were designed for a clearly lower power format have to compete with stuff that occasionally pops out legacy and vintage staples(True name Nemesis, hullbreacher, opposition agent, etc) Not to mention if Teferis protection and Dockside Extortionist were printed into actual rotation and legal in standard, pioneer, modern, then they would DEFINITELY see play in at least 2 of those formats each.
@@krvys7226 I agree. And for the other side of that coin, look at True Name Nemesis. Not really all that impressive in commander, but people were buying the Jeleva commander deck just to remove that card and resell it as a 99-card deck so they could play it in... I want to save Vintage? I honestly can't recall which format was trying to get play-sets of it.
Glad you've did a video regarding Commander cards. I know it's not what you usually do, but it's good here as Commander is pretty much the entry point of new players usually. Plus Commander's landscape is totally different from the faster formats like Standard or Legacy, putting aside the fact Commander is more casual. Anyway, here's an idea for a video that is like this one: Cards that are banned in Commander but are allowed in the other formats. Someone who plays something like Legacy may not understand why certain cards like *Golos, Tireless Pilgrim* is banned in Commander. (In my experience, good riddance that's banned)
Fist of Suns is also a way to get around Commander Tax. As someone who does have an Ur Dragon and Tiamat deck it makes it easier to accept the kill spells that gun down the Ur Dragon if he ever even hits the field. I think its even better for Tiamat since, she is essentially a search for five dragons whenever she hits the field, and is honestly probably better used for that than as a creature.
Arcane Denial is great in Nekusar decks. The card advantage they gain from gets a bit balanced out by Nekusar's effect and the multiple card with similar burn effects. My Nekusar deck was originally commander, but when i suddenly found a playset of Arcane Denial while looking through my cards, I changed it to a bit of a jankier 60 deck. Not as consistent, but the deck is fun when I play casual with some of my friends and have them getting annoyed from me constantly denying their actions and slowly burning them with Nekusar, Fevered Visions, and the uncommon Ob Nixilus Plansewalker. Seeing people get frustrated from drawing cards is hilarious.
How is Cyclonic Rift not on this list! Isn't still like the number one most played blue card on EDHREC? I know it was at one point and I don't believe it's played anywhere else
Not super related but I saw Teferi's Protection and the Phasing mechanic (which is pretty new to me) combined with power and feature creep eventually always reach YGO levels and beyond, I wonder how long until they add cards that interact with cards that are Phased out...
I think your conception of commander is a bit off. You don't seem to factor in the part of it being a multiplayer format unless it's talking about card advantage, which from what I've experienced ain't quite as much of a thing as it is in Yu-Gi-Oh. In commander unless your comboing off you usually don't have to worry so much about dealing that 120 total damage to win because everyone is trying to do something to get their opponents out of the game, so health is constantly shifting in some way and all you have to worry about is staying in and dealing with threats as they come up, since if your focussing on both of those while building up some form of board state you can usually come to a satisfying end somehow, whether it's you winning over so and so turns or dying to some neat thing
Yeah, some people see multiplayer as 1V3, rather than what it is, 1V1V1V1. And, yeah, Duel Logs' heavy focus on Card Advantage is Very Yu-Gi-Oh. I barely hear it from people who's primary game is M:tG. People care more about Tempo, Ramp, utility, so on.
Yeah, I do like these videos, but it's very clear and obvious that he's not really a primary Commander player. While Commander uses the same cards as Modern or Legacy or Pioneer, the actual game plan is very different. What's happening on the table is usually only about half the story, with politicking, aiming players at other players rather than yourself, and being unassuming until a turn you can "go off" are often at least as important as what's in your hand or on the battlefield.
Script writer here. I'm aware that what I said was somewhat inaccurate, as you won't be the one dealing all 120 damage. Still, you will have to deal far more damage than normal. That was just a sort of shorthand to let the audience know how much more power you need to put out to win a game of commander. The number is probably closer to like, 30-60 depending on tons of factors
@@pumkinswift8263 Aggro decks are still a thing in Commander, but they tend to care more about symmetrical/"deals damage to all opponents" style effects or multiple combat steps in a single turn over just having a Goblin Guide smack face for a few turns. As the format continues to speed up with WotC printing Commander optimized cards, we'll be seeing more Aggro strategies popping off; they just won't look like 60-card format Aggro decks. That's really a huge part of the point of Commander: it's very much it's own kettle of fish, and the ways in which it is different often make it far more accessible to new players just starting the game and getting caught in all the cool artwork, character designs, and diagetic storytelling potential. (I run a mono-Green Aggro deck for when my table wants to go cEDH. The Commander is Marwyn the Nurturer, and I can usually pump out infinite or near-infinite mana on turn 4-5 and toss down an infinite number of Hydras or get some big Eldrazi to smack face or draw through near my entire deck to find the right combo. I've done it as early as turn 2, which is why I stopped playing the deck in casual tables. If that isn't Aggro, then you need to adjust your definitions to match your format and stop pretending that Commander is Legacy's little baby-boo-bop cousin. Legacy is all but dead because of the Reserve List, and it really needs to stop being held up as "Magic Distilled," because it is impenetrable to anyone not wanting to sink Used Car money into a hobby.)
its funny cause i think rhystic study is only good cause we are all bad. paying 1 to prevent a card draw is a great deal but people just get too greedy immediately and the card becomes a powerhouse. what i find funniest is that even cedh players fall into this trap, admittedly some decks (like storm) avoiding the tax is probably the right choice, but loads of cedh matches I've seen people feed rhystic for basically no real reason. something about the multiplayer format makes people think it's fine to just hand cards to their opponent, it's interesting.
erm, no. its not good cause "players bad". Having a +1 tax on every spell hurts big time, especially if you want to establish your own board. Playing out a big turn, letting the rhystic guy draw 5 and then hoping the other players can deal with the cards is a valid point. Its an expensive staple for a reason.
I mostly see two views about Dockside Extortionist, one side wants it banned as the mana it generates can be too much to handle especially when everyone is running sol ring, arcane signet, commander’s sphere, some talismans signets or lockets, etc. However the mana from treasures is single use, meaning it’s usually a single explosive turn which a few counters and removal spells can somewhat deal with, making it less powerful than if those treasures stuck around for multiple turns. That and it’s less effective against three opponents’ worth of interaction. Sure more opponents generally means more treasure, but that only really offsets the interaction a little. Most of the time it’s used isn’t in an infinite mana combo. In my opinion, which is the other side of the argument I’ve seen, the card needs to be printed way more than it is. Luckily it was reprinted in double masters but I still think it could be in more precons. Most of the problem of the card is the advantage it gives to a single player that other players might not have access to because of the card’s availability. Everyone with red in their deck can find use for this card, so everyone with a copy is probably using it. This makes it hard to trade for and the demand is so high the price is too. It’s out of the price range of many players. The ban would only really be to even the playing field. Instead it would be better for the game if more people had access to the card, so print the card more so more people have the card.
All of those saw play and were good in formats they've since rotated out of. And Solemn Simulacrum isn't actually that good in commander, and far from the "auto-include" many players like to think it is.
@@Mirvana solemn is very eh its called sad robot for a reason I mainly use it in non-green decks for ramp which it's OK at just I think it's highly played solely because it's colorless It can go in any deck and they are some things you can do with it like blinking it.
I don't play commander, I play modern so I find it funny that I use swan song in one of my decks and cause absolute havoc with it lol Never new it wasn't popular in any format except commander, it's interesting
Seeing Fist of Suns and running a legendary creatures Jodah the Unifier deck makes me think i could use that artifact to much more easily bring out MASSIVE legendary threats for cheap wgich would also let me cascade other big creatures and give them all power boosts. Might have to consider finding one of those
Arcane denial is good because it has a much more flexible mana cost than counterspell and mana drain and tempo is much more important at CEDH levels of play than card advantage is in the large majority of situations. It doesn't matter how many cards you go down when every turn you're facing down someone's lock or combo or needing to protect your own to do the same. On top of that the card advantage engines that are run in CEDH are so efficient that going down in card advantage s usually only a temporary problem and anything you lost is going to be swifly replaced...if you don't just win right away.
I play and Ur-Dragon deck and I once Mana Drained a 16 Torment of Hailfire. The evil thing was that the guy thought he won, and I just silently tap two and put my counter spell on top of his card. He is laughing and as he turns his head and sees it....I got to see the joy drain from his face. And then the table's horror at the idea that the Ur-Dragon just got so much extra mana
Sabretooth doesn’t flicker, it returns to your hand. So if you have more lands than you need to cast and activate, you can tap out, float the excess, and play and bounce Zacama, netting mana.
This was kinda hard to watch. Many of these only see play in very specific EDH decks based on that strategy (Shrines), not "format staples", are only played because of "Each Opponent" text (which the intro implies we WON'T be seeing, yet we have 2 here), and/or were specifically designed for the format (Dockside Extortionist, Teferi's Protection) so they OBVSIOULY wont see much play in the others. And that's before the deluge of typos basically every-other slide or the "artifacts aren't very common in Legacy" line.
I agree, also surprised that Serra Ascendant wasn't mentioned. Sure it's not an outright staple in every white deck... but it sees more play than shrines do.
do you think you'll ever do a top 10 best/worst alchemy only cards? i know it's not the most popular format but i think those could make for decently interesting videos
Fist of Suns works wonders in a tribal deck with Morophon the Boundless, as Morophon allows creatures of the chosen type to be cast for WUBRG less, fist of Suns allows those spells to be cast for free
Dockside and smothering Tide could easily be fixed if the treasures entered tapped. I feel tapped treasures are an underutilized card design tool, considering the reason why treasures even have a tap ability to begin with and not just like a gold token was so that they could be future-proof balanced in future cards.
One important aspect of arcane denial to me, is not even a reason related to the game, but with psychology, you see, different from a match in other formats, where is just 1x1, therefore what I'll say have no importance, Commander being multiplayer has a very strong political/negotiation side to it, there are players who are smart, who are juvenile, and more, using just a counterspell, might make someone hold a grudge against you, ignoring every other player in order to target you, which will not make him win, but something like this can happen, arcane denial make as such that you can have what you want, but also soften the blow against your target, an argue that is not so bad, so he can focus his resources in other player's threat.
Flusterstorm is a bad, really bad counterspell... EVEN in storm decks and as long as you dont play cedh and/or against a lot of storm decks.. I wouldn't run it. Good Counterspells in EDH (and by extention cedh): 1. Mana Drain 2. Counterspell 3. Force of will 4. Fierce Guardianship 4. Force of Negation 5. Pact of Negation 6. Negate 7. Disallow 8. Narset's Reversal 9. Unsubstantiate 10. Swan Song All in mono U. Dovins Veto is pretty much a must have, just kick Swan Song as it is very unreliable.
'Or having multiple opponents' definition at the beginning means nothing if your justification for the higher level spots is 'each opponent means more because 3 opponents' The one that counters and you draw 1 vs opponent drawing 2 is the limit for that because it isn't an 'each enemy' it is just a -1 to one enemy
This list makes me wonder if a list of multiplayer cards that see play outside of commander could be done. Council's Judgment is a good example of this. Also any monarch cards
Wash Away seems like a card that should be on this list to me, it almost always has a prime target to hard-counter for one mana in Commander and Brawl, whereas in other formats it reverts to being just Cancel 99% of the time
I run strix serenade and swan in ur dragon. It’s pretty hilarious countering a board wipe and giving someone a 2/2 bird is almost an insult with a board full of dragons.😂
There is a fairly decent Shrines deck in Arena at the moment, so I kind of disagree with the Sanctum of All placement over things like Smothering Tithe
Try doing the Top 10 Most Irritating Cards in Magic next. I wanna know MtG's equivalent to Ash Blossom or Skill Drain. I'd bet that Slippery Bogle is also an irritating card, since it's almost invulnerable.
Equivalent in what way? In a literal sense, Humility would be Skill Drain. But in a meta sense for older formats it would probably be Blood Moon, for making decks that rely on nonbasics unable to function properly. What is irritating is very subjective. The classic example is how some people hate counterspells, while others enjoy them. And this goes for playing with and against them. An Aggro player might enjoy outwitting the opponents use of counterspells for example. Slippery Bogle is indeed scary, but it can be played around. Board wipes, non-targeted removal, preventing the opponents auras from being played, preventing them from attacking, etc.
I love the fact that true name nemesis was the reverse, not amazing in commander but was game changing in legacy when it came out
The perfect example of why having a relevant creature type can really make a huge difference between a card being "okay" or "amazing" in a format.
@@LadyTsunade777 Right but the card wasn't played only in merfolk. Was the deck so played the Merfolk type made a difference ?
@@LadyTsunade777 no? merfolk is trash in legacy xD its a 3/1 beater with protection from everything, thats why its good.
Some cards just work better in 1v1 and this is one of them
True name nemesis is good in commander in my opinion
Another reason Teferi's is so much stronger in Commander is that you have three opponents, all fighting each other. If one of them has a game-ending combo while you're protected, they can just use it on one of the other two, and leave you alone rather than waiting!
Arcane Denial is one of my favorites. Sometimes you end up with a dead card in your hand and if you cast that and counter it with arcane denial you draw 3 cards. Poor mans Ancestral Recall.
I have a spellslinger deck that likes having instants and sorceries in the GY. Arcane denial can give me extra card draws along thew way.
Haha what a clever idea! Love this!
Sheoldred combo 😃
But it is also good in pauper
I play Lightning Bolt with Swans of Bryn Argoll for that reason. Basically becomes a red ancestral recall
Swan song at least used to see play in Legacy sneak and show sideboards. It is quite flexible counter and giving opponent bird matters little against Griselbrand.
It also starts to see play in pioneer, mainly in combo decks that don't care about the 2/2 flyer.
@@TheEmeraldboy100 Yeah, its best in or against combo decks. Giving your opponent a 2/2 doesn't matter when you're winning on the spot. On the flip side, giving your opponent a 2/2 doesn't matter when they don't win through combat damage. They'll probably just chump an attack with it, and the time that buys them is less than the time you gained by using Swan Song on some important combo piece or tutor.
Played in modern storm for the same reason
I have seen a sneak and show deck lose to the 2/2 bird after both sides countered each others combo plays.
It's worth noting that another big factor for shrines is that they're all legendary, which makes drawing multiple of the same shrine detrimental typically. Since you can only run 1 of any card in commander, drawing multiple shrines is just not possible.
I can't wait to see the new Jodah in a shrine deck, ever since i saw him ive been prepping for it
You can also just play 1 ofs in other formats. It's that's commander is slow that makes shrines more viable.
That comes at the cost of consistency. Shrines suffer from having to balance consistency with variety. Highlander formats force all decks to lose consistency, which is less painful on shrines, since they already have less consistency.
funny side note on fist of suns, if you're playing a 5 color tribal deck like lets use The Ur-Dragon for example, if you combine that with Morophon the Boundless, naming dragons as his creature type. You can play dragons for free by using fist of suns to cast them for WUBRG and Morophon makes the creature type you chose cost WUBRG less to cast. a neat little interaction but devastating in the right decks
1:08 The most powerful card type in Magic, the Instnant.
Indeed, nearly unbeatable I’d say
Mana source has something to say about that
The biggest factor for Arcane Denial I see missed here is that unlike Counterspell, it only requires one blue pip to cast. That’s huge if you are in multiple colors. In five color decks, it’s very possible to not even get the right fixing for two blue pips by the time the game ends, especially with a budget.
it's also really good if you have a card that makes instants cost [1] less to cast like Goblin Electromancer
I’m surprised smothering tithe isn’t on the list, unless I missed something and I’m wrong about it being used in other formats, smothering tithe is basically a commander only card as far as I’m aware.
It had a small place in Standard when it was legal there, but quickly got outpaced.
@@delathenleso5793 people tried it with emergency powers from the same set
@@robertbadgley6291 *shrug* I started playing Magic a few sets later, in Eldraine. I never saw that particular combo. I did see Smothering Tithe with some Aristocrats decks, where the goal was to outlast your opponent, and the card draw at your upkeep was enough to fuel the Tithe.
I guess it was too similar to Rhystic Studies to be interesting for the list
It doesn't do enough unless you have 3 opponents and wheel them. Then it's basically Omniscience
Also with torment, it's hitting 3 players, allowing you to end a came or disrupt everyone. Where as a single threat will only get on one one person, or be removed before anything.
A fun type of effect that could've been on this list are the symmetrical effects or downside effects that target only one opponent. In commander, suddenly the effect that usually leaves you -1 in card advantage can instead leave you at -1 +2 +2, which is a lot better. They're also great fun for diplomacy minded players, especially with playgroups that are less explosive in power.
yeah pretty much all politic cards only see play in commander(or the very rarly played other multiplayer formats), the asymetrical ones like death by dragons, the whole goad mechanic, voting, ect ect
One little complaint I have, as a long time EDH player: Sanctum of All and Fist of Suns are _not_ EDH staples. They're both pretty narrow and only played in specific decks. Sanctum is only played in Shrine decks, and Fist of Suns is only played in a small number of 5c decks. Also, Swan Song is played in other formats, solely for being a 1 mana hard counter.
A few suggestions for alternatives for those slots: Cabal Coffers / Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth / Yavimaya Cradle of Growth, Smothering Tithe, Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile, Rhystic Study, Blasphemous Act, Vandalblast, Nature's Lore / Farseek / Three Visits
This. A lot of the cards you mentioned are staples. I think the creator should spend some time looking at edhrec for what is considered staples.
Most of these cards are too good in other formats. The only card on this list that's uniquely good in Commander is Smothering Tithe, all the other ones would be excluded for seeing too much play in other formats already.
Cabal coffers is used in several modern decks, urborg is in almost every black deck in modern and pioneer and even sees some play in legacy, swords and path are still used in every format you can play them, rhystic study is technically correct because it will never be legal in any format it has any ability to be good in, but still gets used in some weird legacy decks.
Teferi's Protection is also made better in multi-player because while you're essentially out of the game, the other opponent's aren't. Fog stops all combat damage, but if you Teferi's instead, you can save yourself from death while two of your opponents are removed so you only need to deal with one opponent. Add in the greater amount of board wipes that are played since almost every deck plays a few (unlike 1v1 games, where some decks don't want to wrath the board) and it becomes a lot better of a card. There's also the combo it has with cards like Lethal Vapors to basically skip the rest of the game unless your opponent has a way to either win or not deck out, and it's obvious why it's a staple in any deck with White.
My favorite commander power disparity has to be Skullclamp, and it’s in the other direction. Clamp is an infamously powerful card, and it’s absolutely still strong in commander, but highly-tuned decks often don’t end up needing it. So instead, clamp is primarily used to give weaker or jankier decks a leg up in card advantage that they can’t get anywhere else.
Something about one of the most unfun cards in the game promoting fun just tickles me.
Ngl I have actually drawn into a wincon using Skullclamp in my (arguably) mid-tier Brudiclad deck so I feel this. Skullclamp is basically an auto-include in any deck I build that makes tokens or sacrifices creatures.
@@yummines yeah its absurd. i dont remember who but a MTG youtuber made a video showing the changes Skullclamp went through in its design process and how the card changed from a completely fair, kind of okay card into one of the best equipments in commander. It was a good watch and shows how wizards will still make mistakes when designing cards *cough* Oko *cough*
Don't forget clamp was also banned during it's standard run.
Just found your channel, I really like your content! I’ve been playing for over 10 years and I think your card-by-card analysis is outstanding in both depth and accuracy while still being accessible to newer players.
Arcane Denial used to see play in Standard (Type 2 back then) in Turbo Stasis. It still sees play in Premodern Stasis decks today.
Great video, I'll have to show it to my friend. He's new to commander, but played a lot of modern, and its hard to explain to him why some cards are so much better (or worse) in commander. Keep it up!👍
I am kinda disappointed you didn't mention Morophon the Boundless' synergy with Fist of Suns. It allows you to freecast whatever spells you have that have the type you chose with Morophon.
Or how it’s used nearly exclusively with Jodah who gives you the option of casting everything for WUBRG. So fist makes everything free with her on the field.
@@VVheeli uh... Jodah and Fist of Suns have the exact same effect. Morophon is the one that provides the discount.
@@royplatt455 you’re right I’m just dumb. Haven’t played 5 colors in a long time.
@@VVheeli you're on the right track. Fist of suns doesnt make everything free with Jodah BUT it is an extra jodah in your deck in case he's died a few times and is expensive to cast
While true, that's a bit of a niche deck. And it could be argued a better strategy to use generic mana reducers (urzas incubator, semblence anvil, heartless summoning) and run monophonic as a 1 or 2 colour deck.
I say this, because, unlike fist, the generic cost reducers reduce the cost of monophonic itself. And assuming every creature you play shares the tribe you call, and only has 1 colour pip, your creatures functionally become free anyways.
One thing you keep forgetting is the prevalence of politics in commander, since it's four people all trying to win alliances are unavoidable, which also affects how card advantage is considered. Card that help you both you AND one opponent fare better in commander because of that, particularly since you can also help an opponent stopping a second opponent about to win so that you might still have a chance later. Scheming Symmetry is often used this way, making an opponent tutor for an answer to the current main problem while you look for what you want. This also helps offset the downside of Arcane Denial.
Also, Mystic Remora is worse than Rhystic Study in commander due to the non-creature clause and cumulative upkeep. Commander is a slower enough format that usually you can pretty easily play around Remora by stalling for time and just putting down creatures, until the controller lets it go, while Rhystic Study is a tax on every single spell that won't get away on its own, making it overall better. It costs more, but in commander is not that much of a difference.
As for staples, I honestly didn't expect to see Sanctum of All (sanctuaries are not as bad, but still much played in commander) and I would have expected something like Expropriate. It might have fallen out of favor, but it's still a pretty good game-ender.
You’re just straight up wrong lol. Mystic remora is significantly stronger than rhystic study.
Expropriate is awful. Most of the cards on this list weren’t even that good in commander.
@@wizardsmix7961 it's always nice when you take care to argument and people just answer "you are wrong bleah".
Good job, you proved you are smarter than everyone else.
Sorry, though, you won't get cookies or belly rubs.
@@wizardsmix7961 Early game yes. Late game no.
Mystic remora is actively better than rhystic for every reason rhystic isn't good in other formats. Remora is an early game power house where you draw cards while people are actively trying to set up the board. If they're "playing around Remora" they're not playing mana rocks, ramp spells, etc. It is basically impossible to pay the tax, even late game so it's not totally useless while interaction is required to play as well. Remora is an incredibly good card.
Study however, costs more and more often than not IS just a tax that gets paid because players realize if they pay the tax... You don't run away with the game. And then later, someone can remove it if the tax is becoming a problem. Study, is not a bad card in commander. It's a one sided tax on EVERY card. Remora, is just better for what people _want_ study to be.
I don't know if this ever saw play in another format, but I'd doubt it due to it's more limited scope and high cost... Painful Quandary is a card I mentioned in another of your videos that scales incredibly well in commander. Being able to force your opponents to either discard or lose life for every spell they play really starts to add up, and while losing 5 life isn't AS big in commander as other formats, it's still enough that it does put you on a clock to find an answer to it or die, especially since decks playing it are probably also hitting your life with other effects in addition to this.
Another that's really good in commander that's probably not as great elsewhere is Serra Ascendant. The card is a 1/1 lifelink for 1, but if you have 30 or more like becomes a 6/6 flier with lifelink for 1. This is an incredibly powerful card since unlike in other formats, it can come down turn 1 as a 6/6 and start to really do some serious damage and gain you a lot of life very early on. Starting at 40 life means it's always a very powerful turn 1 play (usually I'd opt for it over a Sol Ring even if it's in my opening hand) and doesn't have the extra hoop to jump through to have 30 life you'd have to have in other formats. It's actually a threat here whereas elsewhere it might be more of a "win more" type of card.
Arcane Denial actually sees fringe play in Pauper and in Premodern it actually sees quite a lot of play in certain decks.
Specifically turbo-fog for Arcane Denial, from what I’ve seen
Arcane Denial is played in Pauper Turbofog, partly to counter one of your storm spells to draw 3 for 1U.
Sabertooth is also good tech for putting a commander into your hand. Which allows some commanders with X cost abilities to get recast where flicker doesn't work.
Fist of suns probably sees the most success when paired with Morophon the Boundless. Morophon is an any-tribal commander that gives all creatures of your chosen type the ability to be cast for WUBRG rather than their regular cost. If you’re only paying WUBRG for your creatures then fist of suns (and Jodah) reduces that to 0 mana. Considering you’d only be running Morophon if you were playing a lot of creatures of that one creature type, this means most of the cards in your deck you want to cast are now 0 mana to cast.
Fist of suns/Morophon is killer if you run Tiamat. Being able to dump 6 dragons onto the field feels good
17:23 There's also a combo that involves losing infinite turns with LETHAL VAPORS*** or chronatog and casting this to make everyone deck out. Works in legacy at least, but more of a Johnny strat
Nexus of Fate.
I mean, nobody but dirty infinite turn Narset players with money to spare run it, but it is a hard counter.
Lethal Vapors. It requires extra setup though. If you don't have something that stops others from using abilities on your turn or find a way to kill Lethal Vapors without passing priority, the opponents just activate it as many times as you do. Worse case scenario, someone has a Thassa's Oracle/Laboratory Maniac/Jace and they get a free win. A "damage can't be prevented" card also gives a win since commander damage is like poison, it doesn't matter if you lose life or not, if you reach 21 you're dead. Otherwise an Eldrazi titan in the deck or a Zenith card stops it as well.
@@Seedmember Yeah this is more of a Magic Online strategy. You need to use something like Faith Healer or Final Payment to get rid of Lethal Vapors without passing priority, and otherwise it's hard
The best feeling in the world is casting Triumph of the Hordes and then Chandra's Ignition with a giant creature in play, thus hitting the entire table with ten poison in one shot. I've won a bunch of games with my Mayael deck this way.
And it works perfectly because on their own, I have either a boardwipe or a way to KO one player, depending on which is in my hand. But with both...game over.
Thanks for the excellent explanation regarding the counter spells in commander. I never really understood why anyone would play that card since it lets your opponent draw but now it makes perfect sense! Love your channel by the way.
first of suns + that legendary changeling that makes creatures of a chosen type cost wbbrg less to cast means tribal 0 costs
Morophon the Boundless.
A video idea that calls back to you custom card review days:
Ask your fans to make ports of YGO card to MTG and the other way.
A couple of nitpicks -
- There is no way that Temur Sabertooth is a better commander card than Rhystic Study. The Study is one of the format's boogeymen, the thing you always dread seeing hit the table. And both of them saw effectively no competitive play, so that shouldn't really affect the list at all.
- The lack of Smothering Tithe is wild to me. Tithe sees no serious play in non-Commander formats as far as I know, and is arguably even more brutal than Rhystic Study, as so many spells draw cards, the tax is higher, extra mana is just that good, and you always get at least one trigger off of that player's draw step.
Regarding the first thing, the list is about the discrepancy in power, not how good they are in Commander. Study is kind of ok in other formats, whereas Sabertooth is straight up bad in most formats. While study is better, Sabertooth has the bigger discrepancy.
I personally love the "you may have your opponent gain a bunch of life instead of paying mana" cards
Arcane denial actually sees lots of play in a specific meta pauper deck called turbofog
Torment of Hailfire are my most common wincon on my golgari deck and each time people are like "again, he win by this card"
Usually i spend 36 mana on the X but for the record, i spend 160 mana in the X cost.
Does no one in your group run Swan Song?? XD
How good is Smothering Tithe outside Commander? I would imagine a 4 mana do nothing is actually a pretty heavy cost, and doesn't pay off against most decks until like 4 turns later.
When you only have one opponent it's not very good
Neat analysis & list video! Thanks for uploading!
Would be neat to see ManaLogs play some commander. I bet you could get a guest slot on some show.
Ayyy, a Commander top 10, thought it's be a while before getting one of these. Been looking forward to this.
Hi
Fog and pseudo-fog effects are played somewhat commonly (B-tier probably) in pauper. There are combo decks that rely on them (stream of thought combo) as well as control decks (stonehorn dignitary in jeskai ephemerate for example) and even aggro and midrange decks that rely on them to influence their clocks (screechgate and prismatic strands as an example). I surprisingly see fogs more in pauper than I do in commander. Pauper even has a combo deck called turbofog.
I love the videos!! I feel like they’re very well made, and I’m SHOCKED at the low amount of views of every video you put out
Teferi’s is mainly good because it more or less allows you to skip 3 opposing turns of interaction. Only skipping one turn for 3 mana is not good enough in 1v1.
But you can use his abilities whenever you feel like for no mana cost. Or is that just the M21 version I have?
@@joebaumgart1146 He's talking about Teferi's Protection, not the 4 mana one from M21.
Fist of Suns isn't that good in commander anyways, you are restricted only to 5-color decks because color identity; so it's only useful in decks like Jodah or Morophon
Even then it's still pretty bad
It feels weird hearing someone read out a WUBRG cost instead of just saying "WUBRG".
Torment of hailfire was good in standard at the time
It's a insane game ender with a black midrange deck and if you're applying pressure with creatures you either slash their life to force them to block all your creatures or destroy so many permanents you'll drown them in advantage
Smothering tithe (not on this list) also saw some standard play, I think this list leans heavier to cards that saw no eternal format play post rotations
On swan song. It is poggers if you build a white/blue soul sister's deck. You turn its downside into a massive benefit if you have soul warden or one of its variants on the field, Ajani's pridemate and Archangel of thune and is probably the best counter spell for a white/blue soul sisters deck, being that its downside becomes a massive benefit to the deck
My friend has a 60 card deck called The Grix Tickler, that has just a ton of disruption and draw/scry to keep finding Flame Slash or the like, to survive until he has a bunch of lands, and then starts casting X-cost spells like Torment of Hailfire. It's a casual deck but it was cruel and stylish. I think it had only one creature, maybe Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind.
I think Sanctum of All is still bad in commander. But it really is wild remembering that two of the craziest Commander original cards (Dockside and TefPro) are like massive who cares in other formats.
While most decks try to run some enchantment hate, it's still one of the hardest types of permanent to interact with. And you're still a lot less likely to just get aggroed down before you can even drop a 5-mana threat.
@@astuteanansi4935 shrines is still a bad meme deck :D
Very. Informative and gives a better perspective on various formats and their dynamics. Thank you.
Im gonna build a deck with NOTHING but staples.
I'll call it...
Office Depot
Another thing about rhystic study is that your opponents are much more likely to give you cards in commander than in 1v1. When I have 3 opponents, paying mana to an opponents study is only preventing me from going -1 against 1 of my 3 opponents rather than going -1 against my sole opponent.
Yup. Paying the mana tax is advantageous to all three opponents, giving the Rhystic user a card is advantageous to one. Plus that advantage is less likely to be turned against you. What's your opponent going to do, go for the one that's giving them card advantage first? No no, they're going to go for the other two.
If you're on the receiving end of this card, sell the others out and hope you can pull off something sneaky while the one playing Rhystic is dealing with them.
I would say sera ascendant. A 1 white 1/1 with lifelink that gains +5/+5 and flying if you have above 30 life. While decent in other formats if you can get above its threshold, in commander where you have 40 life to start it is an amazing value card for its mana cost that will be hard to block and net you more life.
it gets +5/+5 when you're above 30 life*, but yeah its an absurdly strong card in commander. Turn 1 serra ascendant makes you an immediate target and its almost impossible to block in the early game so you get massive lifegain swings
@@fosterdawson7339 there we go, fixed it, thanks for the catch. And yeah it’s a good card that will get you targeted if you get it early.
How about top 10 Retrain cards. I was thinking about retrain cards after looking at the Suspend retrains of banned/restricted cards such as Sol Talisman (Sol Ring) and Wheel of Fate (Wheel of Fortune)
this is a lovely idea!
actually, I don't personally see lots of retrain cards, but they are wonderful nonetheless :D
Blasphemous Act is such a game ender in the right Red deck.
Could you imagine a Compleated Garruk with a -5 that does what Triumph of the Hoard does? Similar to Wildspeaker’s -4 Overrun ultimate.
I was scared that this list was just gonna be Leadership Vacuum style cards. Glad you excluded commander specific stuff.
Rhystic study is pretty funny. In normal magic the effect that is better for your opponent is worse for you, but in a 4 player environment letting you have the card is better both for you and your opponent.
So forcing your opponent to make the choice that is worse for them would be quite determinental to you, you want them to choose to let you draw a card
Yea, it’s not just that you have more opponents for it to trigger, it’s that the incentives of each opponent is changed in multiplayer
I would not include Dockside Extortionist nor Teferi's Protection, as those were custom made for Commander and originated from Commander Products, where they generally push card power level. The other 8 were all from standard sets where, despite their shortcomings in a low power format, still make it in commander today.
I would have thrown in Zendikar Resurgent and any of the prison effects like Propagnda, Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Safety, etc.
I mean, just because they were made for commander, doesn't mean they still don't apply to this list. They are legal in eternal formats, don't specify commander, and fit the criteria. As well, both have seen some form of reprint in a non-commander focused draft set. (Archive version from strixhave for tef pro, and double masters for dockside)
@@krvys7226 @Krvys Reprints in a supplemental product that doesnt affect the legality of a card(except pauper) doesnt change the fact they are literally pushed cards for the commander format with that format in mind. Not only that, these cards are only legal in Vintage and Legacy cause wotc stated all supplementary products just become legal in those format. They weren't added to those format by the normal means of type 1(now standard), but from products cater made to a format where power levels can be much higher than the norm and it would be fine. It just feels unfair that cards that were designed for a clearly lower power format have to compete with stuff that occasionally pops out legacy and vintage staples(True name Nemesis, hullbreacher, opposition agent, etc) Not to mention if Teferis protection and Dockside Extortionist were printed into actual rotation and legal in standard, pioneer, modern, then they would DEFINITELY see play in at least 2 of those formats each.
@@krvys7226 I agree. And for the other side of that coin, look at True Name Nemesis. Not really all that impressive in commander, but people were buying the Jeleva commander deck just to remove that card and resell it as a 99-card deck so they could play it in... I want to save Vintage? I honestly can't recall which format was trying to get play-sets of it.
Glad you've did a video regarding Commander cards. I know it's not what you usually do, but it's good here as Commander is pretty much the entry point of new players usually. Plus Commander's landscape is totally different from the faster formats like Standard or Legacy, putting aside the fact Commander is more casual.
Anyway, here's an idea for a video that is like this one: Cards that are banned in Commander but are allowed in the other formats. Someone who plays something like Legacy may not understand why certain cards like *Golos, Tireless Pilgrim* is banned in Commander. (In my experience, good riddance that's banned)
Entry point? You need 100 unique cards lol I dont know anybody that started with Commander. Only folks who grew into it.
Chances of a video on best werewolves? I played them in Innestrad, then stopped playing because life happens. Would love to hear about some old gems
Great content. Just a tip, when describing WUBRG, you can just say wooberg. We all know what that is. Keep up the great work!
Fist of Suns is also a way to get around Commander Tax. As someone who does have an Ur Dragon and Tiamat deck it makes it easier to accept the kill spells that gun down the Ur Dragon if he ever even hits the field. I think its even better for Tiamat since, she is essentially a search for five dragons whenever she hits the field, and is honestly probably better used for that than as a creature.
Fist of suns doesnt prevent you from paying commander tax,since commander tax is an additional cost, similar to kicker.
@@sirplayalot11x Guess my playground never looked into that ruling. The pitfalls of home table play I suppose.
Arcane Denial is great in Nekusar decks. The card advantage they gain from gets a bit balanced out by Nekusar's effect and the multiple card with similar burn effects. My Nekusar deck was originally commander, but when i suddenly found a playset of Arcane Denial while looking through my cards, I changed it to a bit of a jankier 60 deck. Not as consistent, but the deck is fun when I play casual with some of my friends and have them getting annoyed from me constantly denying their actions and slowly burning them with Nekusar, Fevered Visions, and the uncommon Ob Nixilus Plansewalker. Seeing people get frustrated from drawing cards is hilarious.
Me at 3:40, who is just getting into magic and building a Sliver deck with Morophon the Boundless: Innnnnnteresting
How is Cyclonic Rift not on this list! Isn't still like the number one most played blue card on EDHREC? I know it was at one point and I don't believe it's played anywhere else
Not super related but I saw Teferi's Protection and the Phasing mechanic (which is pretty new to me) combined with power and feature creep eventually always reach YGO levels and beyond, I wonder how long until they add cards that interact with cards that are Phased out...
I think your conception of commander is a bit off. You don't seem to factor in the part of it being a multiplayer format unless it's talking about card advantage, which from what I've experienced ain't quite as much of a thing as it is in Yu-Gi-Oh. In commander unless your comboing off you usually don't have to worry so much about dealing that 120 total damage to win because everyone is trying to do something to get their opponents out of the game, so health is constantly shifting in some way and all you have to worry about is staying in and dealing with threats as they come up, since if your focussing on both of those while building up some form of board state you can usually come to a satisfying end somehow, whether it's you winning over so and so turns or dying to some neat thing
Yeah, some people see multiplayer as 1V3, rather than what it is, 1V1V1V1.
And, yeah, Duel Logs' heavy focus on Card Advantage is Very Yu-Gi-Oh. I barely hear it from people who's primary game is M:tG. People care more about Tempo, Ramp, utility, so on.
Yeah, I do like these videos, but it's very clear and obvious that he's not really a primary Commander player. While Commander uses the same cards as Modern or Legacy or Pioneer, the actual game plan is very different. What's happening on the table is usually only about half the story, with politicking, aiming players at other players rather than yourself, and being unassuming until a turn you can "go off" are often at least as important as what's in your hand or on the battlefield.
Script writer here. I'm aware that what I said was somewhat inaccurate, as you won't be the one dealing all 120 damage. Still, you will have to deal far more damage than normal. That was just a sort of shorthand to let the audience know how much more power you need to put out to win a game of commander. The number is probably closer to like, 30-60 depending on tons of factors
@@pumkinswift8263 Aggro decks are still a thing in Commander, but they tend to care more about symmetrical/"deals damage to all opponents" style effects or multiple combat steps in a single turn over just having a Goblin Guide smack face for a few turns. As the format continues to speed up with WotC printing Commander optimized cards, we'll be seeing more Aggro strategies popping off; they just won't look like 60-card format Aggro decks.
That's really a huge part of the point of Commander: it's very much it's own kettle of fish, and the ways in which it is different often make it far more accessible to new players just starting the game and getting caught in all the cool artwork, character designs, and diagetic storytelling potential.
(I run a mono-Green Aggro deck for when my table wants to go cEDH. The Commander is Marwyn the Nurturer, and I can usually pump out infinite or near-infinite mana on turn 4-5 and toss down an infinite number of Hydras or get some big Eldrazi to smack face or draw through near my entire deck to find the right combo. I've done it as early as turn 2, which is why I stopped playing the deck in casual tables. If that isn't Aggro, then you need to adjust your definitions to match your format and stop pretending that Commander is Legacy's little baby-boo-bop cousin. Legacy is all but dead because of the Reserve List, and it really needs to stop being held up as "Magic Distilled," because it is impenetrable to anyone not wanting to sink Used Car money into a hobby.)
@@delathenleso5793 making infinite mana and winning is not what anyone would call aggro, its a combo.
its funny cause i think rhystic study is only good cause we are all bad. paying 1 to prevent a card draw is a great deal but people just get too greedy immediately and the card becomes a powerhouse. what i find funniest is that even cedh players fall into this trap, admittedly some decks (like storm) avoiding the tax is probably the right choice, but loads of cedh matches I've seen people feed rhystic for basically no real reason.
something about the multiplayer format makes people think it's fine to just hand cards to their opponent, it's interesting.
erm, no. its not good cause "players bad". Having a +1 tax on every spell hurts big time, especially if you want to establish your own board. Playing out a big turn, letting the rhystic guy draw 5 and then hoping the other players can deal with the cards is a valid point. Its an expensive staple for a reason.
I mostly see two views about Dockside Extortionist, one side wants it banned as the mana it generates can be too much to handle especially when everyone is running sol ring, arcane signet, commander’s sphere, some talismans signets or lockets, etc. However the mana from treasures is single use, meaning it’s usually a single explosive turn which a few counters and removal spells can somewhat deal with, making it less powerful than if those treasures stuck around for multiple turns. That and it’s less effective against three opponents’ worth of interaction. Sure more opponents generally means more treasure, but that only really offsets the interaction a little. Most of the time it’s used isn’t in an infinite mana combo. In my opinion, which is the other side of the argument I’ve seen, the card needs to be printed way more than it is. Luckily it was reprinted in double masters but I still think it could be in more precons. Most of the problem of the card is the advantage it gives to a single player that other players might not have access to because of the card’s availability. Everyone with red in their deck can find use for this card, so everyone with a copy is probably using it. This makes it hard to trade for and the demand is so high the price is too. It’s out of the price range of many players. The ban would only really be to even the playing field. Instead it would be better for the game if more people had access to the card, so print the card more so more people have the card.
Pretty weird to include Swan Song, Sanctum, & Fist when Clyclonic Rift, Solemn Simulacrum, & Smothering Tithe exist.
All of those saw play and were good in formats they've since rotated out of. And Solemn Simulacrum isn't actually that good in commander, and far from the "auto-include" many players like to think it is.
@@Mirvana solemn is very eh its called sad robot for a reason I mainly use it in non-green decks for ramp which it's OK at just I think it's highly played solely because it's colorless It can go in any deck and they are some things you can do with it like blinking it.
Also Serra Ascendant.... which can be an absolutely insane turn 1 play in the format.
I used Swan Song when it first came out, for standard. It was pretty useful for the format at that time.
I made a version of Swan song for custom games that gives you a bird. That is how I read the card and was like "Well that is just OP!"
Arcane denial countering your own spell that is getting made irrelevant or vetoed to draw 3
Fish and Study are two ways my Muldrotha Lands deck can acquire a ton of cards while seemingly doing nothing but ramping.
I don't play commander, I play modern so I find it funny that I use swan song in one of my decks and cause absolute havoc with it lol
Never new it wasn't popular in any format except commander, it's interesting
Seeing Fist of Suns and running a legendary creatures Jodah the Unifier deck makes me think i could use that artifact to much more easily bring out MASSIVE legendary threats for cheap wgich would also let me cascade other big creatures and give them all power boosts. Might have to consider finding one of those
Arcane denial is good because it has a much more flexible mana cost than counterspell and mana drain and tempo is much more important at CEDH levels of play than card advantage is in the large majority of situations. It doesn't matter how many cards you go down when every turn you're facing down someone's lock or combo or needing to protect your own to do the same. On top of that the card advantage engines that are run in CEDH are so efficient that going down in card advantage s usually only a temporary problem and anything you lost is going to be swifly replaced...if you don't just win right away.
I play and Ur-Dragon deck and I once Mana Drained a 16 Torment of Hailfire. The evil thing was that the guy thought he won, and I just silently tap two and put my counter spell on top of his card. He is laughing and as he turns his head and sees it....I got to see the joy drain from his face. And then the table's horror at the idea that the Ur-Dragon just got so much extra mana
Fist of suns allows you to CAST, so you can cheat nasty "when cast" effects.
Works well with "when cast... Get an extra turn"
Zacama's ETB only happens if it was cast. Flickering does not allow you to untap lands.
Sabretooth doesn’t flicker, it returns to your hand. So if you have more lands than you need to cast and activate, you can tap out, float the excess, and play and bounce Zacama, netting mana.
@@tyrusdalet he was saying how flicker was more efficient, I'm saying not with Zacama
This was kinda hard to watch. Many of these only see play in very specific EDH decks based on that strategy (Shrines), not "format staples", are only played because of "Each Opponent" text (which the intro implies we WON'T be seeing, yet we have 2 here), and/or were specifically designed for the format (Dockside Extortionist, Teferi's Protection) so they OBVSIOULY wont see much play in the others. And that's before the deluge of typos basically every-other slide or the "artifacts aren't very common in Legacy" line.
I agree, also surprised that Serra Ascendant wasn't mentioned. Sure it's not an outright staple in every white deck... but it sees more play than shrines do.
do you think you'll ever do a top 10 best/worst alchemy only cards? i know it's not the most popular format but i think those could make for decently interesting videos
Fist of Suns works wonders in a tribal deck with Morophon the Boundless, as Morophon allows creatures of the chosen type to be cast for WUBRG less, fist of Suns allows those spells to be cast for free
Torment of Hailfire also scales hard with # of opponents. You're basically getting 3 of the effects per 1 mana spent toward the X cost
Dockside and smothering Tide could easily be fixed if the treasures entered tapped. I feel tapped treasures are an underutilized card design tool, considering the reason why treasures even have a tap ability to begin with and not just like a gold token was so that they could be future-proof balanced in future cards.
You should also include An Offer You Can't Refuse in number 10, since it's basically the same card as Swan Song.
An offer you can’t refuse is good in standard tempo decks right now
One important aspect of arcane denial to me, is not even a reason related to the game, but with psychology, you see, different from a match in other formats, where is just 1x1, therefore what I'll say have no importance, Commander being multiplayer has a very strong political/negotiation side to it, there are players who are smart, who are juvenile, and more, using just a counterspell, might make someone hold a grudge against you, ignoring every other player in order to target you, which will not make him win, but something like this can happen, arcane denial make as such that you can have what you want, but also soften the blow against your target, an argue that is not so bad, so he can focus his resources in other player's threat.
Really glad to see you made an mtg channel
Flusterstorm is a bad, really bad counterspell... EVEN in storm decks and as long as you dont play cedh and/or against a lot of storm decks.. I wouldn't run it.
Good Counterspells in EDH (and by extention cedh):
1. Mana Drain
2. Counterspell
3. Force of will
4. Fierce Guardianship
4. Force of Negation
5. Pact of Negation
6. Negate
7. Disallow
8. Narset's Reversal
9. Unsubstantiate
10. Swan Song
All in mono U. Dovins Veto is pretty much a must have, just kick Swan Song as it is very unreliable.
Temur Sabertooth can bounce a creature after declaring it as a blocker, giving you two “indestructible” blockers in exchange for tempo
'Or having multiple opponents' definition at the beginning means nothing if your justification for the higher level spots is 'each opponent means more because 3 opponents'
The one that counters and you draw 1 vs opponent drawing 2 is the limit for that because it isn't an 'each enemy' it is just a -1 to one enemy
As of today, Dockside Extortionist got banned after all!
This list makes me wonder if a list of multiplayer cards that see play outside of commander could be done. Council's Judgment is a good example of this. Also any monarch cards
Wash Away seems like a card that should be on this list to me, it almost always has a prime target to hard-counter for one mana in Commander and Brawl, whereas in other formats it reverts to being just Cancel 99% of the time
This is basically the "BUT in Dueeel Links" of MTG
I run strix serenade and swan in ur dragon. It’s pretty hilarious countering a board wipe and giving someone a 2/2 bird is almost an insult with a board full of dragons.😂
Fist also combos amazingly with Morophon, making tribal decks turn into "play anything of that type for free:
I'm more surprised blasphemous act wasn't in this list. Has it seen play somewhere then?
There is a fairly decent Shrines deck in Arena at the moment, so I kind of disagree with the Sanctum of All placement over things like Smothering Tithe
Try doing the Top 10 Most Irritating Cards in Magic next.
I wanna know MtG's equivalent to Ash Blossom or Skill Drain.
I'd bet that Slippery Bogle is also an irritating card, since it's almost invulnerable.
Equivalent in what way? In a literal sense, Humility would be Skill Drain. But in a meta sense for older formats it would probably be Blood Moon, for making decks that rely on nonbasics unable to function properly.
What is irritating is very subjective. The classic example is how some people hate counterspells, while others enjoy them. And this goes for playing with and against them. An Aggro player might enjoy outwitting the opponents use of counterspells for example.
Slippery Bogle is indeed scary, but it can be played around. Board wipes, non-targeted removal, preventing the opponents auras from being played, preventing them from attacking, etc.
I feel like this list could have been more instructive by showing EDHrec data along with the cards
Swan Song x4 is being played in Historic Elves on MTGA. Js