Cheap Reduced Shank Drills. Worse Than You Think
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- Опубликовано: 29 дек 2023
- Hey everyone,
I am in need of a set of silver and demming/reduced shank drills. I spend quite a lot of time boring or using the boring head because I haven't acquired the vast collections of tooling that many machine shops accumulate over years and years. I was looking to purchase some larger drills, but unsurprisingly, they aren't cheap. Even the off brand ones are easily $50 plus for sizes larger than 15mm. Now I will be happy to pay for that one day (especially when I know what sizes I really need) but for now I decided to buy a set off ebay.
I knew that these drills would not be great. I couldn't find any videos on them, so I bought them to find out if they were a case of 'you get what you pay for' or a hidden gem. Turns out, they had a lot of issues, ranging from deep scratches, bad grinds and undersized.
Long story short, don't make my mistake.
#machining #drillbitset
Silver and demming drill bits
cheap silver and demming drill bits 
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I bought a similar set through the jungle themed online source from a random Asian import seller. Mine work and look slightly better than yours, but I didn't get the optional missing chunks and scratches from the midnight shift.
I think if you need a hole like thing in sizes you don't otherwise have or use often, not a bad deal. If you want said hole to be accurate or the drills to last, keep stepping.
Usually, quality with import tools is reflected in their lifetime. I needed 4x 22mm holes in 3mm steel, and you can bet your bottom dollar I am not going to spend more than $25 for a drill in that size. And I am also not paying for a boring head, or someone to bore it out for me with their tools.
But if you make a living from drilling 22mm holes, you just get the proper tools.
i have a very similar set and i gotta say, you seriously got the short end of the stick here. i also paid 40usd for mine but the quality difference is day and night compared to these. they are not comparable to good quality bits but i have zero complains about the grinding and finishing (for the price), and while watching the video i got curious about the actual size so i used a micrometer and they are all within 0.05mm, which is impressive. material quality is probably about the same as yours, and that "wws 25" is commonly known as "Chinesium"
in conclusion: not all chinese crap is made the same
That's the thing with low end stuff. The product is not consistent so quality is all over the place. It's gambling. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Now there are people that do enjoy the activity. That's why casinos are in business. We all like to play the games occasionally.
Not all Chinese crap is the same, but it is still all Chinese crap.
@@1pcfred its not about gambling at all, at least for anyone i know... its just that in many cases "the good stuff" costs 5 to 10 times the price of a chinese knockoff, and for people like me who dont use these tools on a daily basis it is not justifiable to spend the money. a good example: in my country a cordless DeWalt drill (the only good quality brand you can get here) costs 1000usd, a chinese cordless drill costs 100usd. no matter how bad i treat them, i am not gonna break 10 cordless drills in my entire lifetime, and even if i bought 2 or 3 to have a spare in case of need, i'd still come out ahead. as he said, the entire box of chinese drillbits is worth less than ONE SINGLE good quality bit
@@TheMadJoker87 if a tool isn't fit for task it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Although $1,000 for a drill is expensive. Here DeWalt drills run about $100 to $300 or so depending on the model. Those are kits with batteries and chargers. I'm not sure if DeWalt is the best. It's likely good enough though. A lot like Milwaukee. I'm pretty sure even those brands are made in China today too. Some off brands are OK. I have some old Black and Decker cordless tools myself. Good enough for me.
Short end of the stick? I think you mean the reduced end of the shank.
I learned a long time ago that a cheap import tool can get you by in a pinch but you still have to treat them all like half finished projects. Some can be fixed up into a workable condition but most aren't worth the time or effort.
I got a few when i had to drill i think 4 holes. No tolerance but large diameter.
Worked well enough.
Crazy how much quality can vary on the cheaper imported tools. I have a set of these I got from Horror Freight about 10 years ago and they still serve me fine. They’ve been re-sharpened many times
To be fair, Harbor Freight vets their suppliers. It tries to ensure its products are at least minimally viable as an American company.
I must admit to being taught to gradually increase the size of hole I am drilling. One starts with a spotting drill, then goes to 1/4" (6mm) & goes up in steps, to suit one's lathe. Mine being a Myford, so around 1/8" (3mm). Clearly with the biggest sizes you need to reduce the size difference. The object being not to stall the lathe or chew up the chuck jaws. Or if the drill has a taper fit & your lathe does not have a corresponding internal tang, chew up your tapper.
even with a proper lathe and dril bit ,yanking a 25mm drillbit into a non drilled part is work.As the RPm in the middle is Zero,you are pushing a big pieace of stell through a different piace of steel.
So predrilling with a drilbit larger the non cutting centerpart will drop forces a lot....
so Predrilling is always a good step
@@bosanaz2010One might even say it's mandatory
You'd be horrified seeing Kurtis at Cutting Edge Engineering push a 2" drill into a huge cylinder rod without drilling a pilot. He uses Bluddy Big lathes however 😂
@@johncoops6897 Step drilling is mostly a myth; with proper setup you should be able to mark, punch (ideally center drill) and then choose the appropriate drill size. You then ream/bore to size if required for the application. Step drilling wastes time and massacres drill bits(and tools and wrists) and too often the hole ends up worse.
@@rolfbjorn9937 - it requires a huge amount of tool pressure to push the web of a large drill into the stock. Unless the drill is ground with a split point, you have a dead flat chisel (The width of the drills web) that you literally have to push through the material, as there is no cutting happening from the sharpened cutters in that central area. Furthermore the friction at that point can overheat the drill or work harden the material.
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Remember, most of us are hobbyists and even drilling anything over half inch in steel can be challenging, perhaps a bit larger in a decent drill press. It's even more difficult with a Jacobs chuck, like shown in this video, where extra tool pressure means chewing up the drill shank and/or chuck jaws.
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So, the decision becomes... does my machine have enough rigidity and grunt to push the large drill hard enough, or will it be quicker overall to preform a second step of drilling a pilot/clearance hole.
I did the same thing with the multi-piece set of end mills. Used them til they got dull and replaced them with good ones. It was a good way to get a selection of sizes not knowing what sizes I'd be using most often.
I'll tell you which sizes you use. You use the sizes that aren't busted and dull. That's the sizes you use in sets. Hmmm, this one still looks good. I guess I'm using it.
One philosophy I've heard about tools is to first buy them cheap, and if you use them eniigh to break them (assuming they arent total pieces of junk to start with) then buy quality ones.
@@AnonOmis1000 that's a strategy I've heard and used myself. It isn't ideal but that's how things go. Life would be easy if we started out with all the answers. But I didn't.
@@AnonOmis1000 Even the Chinese end mills I bought were not junk and they cut well. I jsut didn't know which sizes I would use the most so the multi piece set was the right choice for me. After I got to making other projects I started buying more specialized cutters based on what I was making. Plus as I was learning I broke more cutters than I do now so cheap was a quality all it's own.
Happy New Years!
Keep up the great work, I'm excited to see what projects you have in store for us in 2024!
I've always know these as "Blacksmiths drills". I bought a set of import drills some years ago and they were honestly not too bad; I drilled a bunch of stainless steel round bar to make motorcycle wheel spacers (bored them to size afterwards) and they handled it pretty well. Mine don't have the flats on the shank though, so you need to really tighten the chuck for the larger ones.
I think most tools that are made with no quality control at all, it's hit and miss!!! I bought a set of these a few years ago & the relief was higher than the cutting edge!!!
Had this sort of inch/metric discrepancy happen to me when I bought a very cheap #26 (0.147”) wire gauge drill, arrived at exactly 3.7mm even though it was stamped #26. Funny enough that’s the metric size I was roughly shooting for anyway
I see a cool project here. Pick one of the oversized drills and case harden then grind the OD to size with a tool post grinder. You might end up with a really nice drill.
I just got that exact same set for Christmas. Like the exact same set. I'm glad I watched this. I'll predominantly be using them for non precise wood applications or non critical metal, but I didn't expect the set to be a good set, just good enough for what I'm doing with them.
The shank on the 25mm drill reads WWS25. I believe that means that it is WWS tool steel, 25mm
It did look like the 25mm drill bit which is about the biggest clue to what the reference was.
Thanks for sharing your experience! Interesting how you can see the runout in the holes in some segments.
Totally agree the flats on the shank makes all the difference on a reduced shank but without a grinder fixture I can't recommend grinding them by had as they won't grip accurately. What scares me is people putting these in hand drills, they do nothing but wreak your wrist in anything but wood. I have actually bought quite a good range over the years as places like Bunnings drop lines due to low turn over, good quality too.
Oh man, we used to have to share these in machining school, had a tool crib guy that was half blind and would most of the time give you either the wrong size you needed or a completely dull one. Got some great bit sharpening practice though😂
A lot of these cheap reduced shank drill bits are optimized for drilling wood. Once you get above 5/8 they are pretty much snap city. Using them in a 'real' drill press or real lathe they snap right off at the step down. Splitting the point can help a lot. But in my shop I use taper shank over 5/8 of an inch. Mt2 seems to hold well to about 7/8 of an inch.
A drill that snaps off is hard, and will stay sharp a long time if you take care of it. Cheap alloy drills usually twist off, indicating poor heat treat/soft metal.
@Bob_Adkins the cheap drills are both, depending. Sometimes you get overly hard carbon steel labeled as HSS. Sometimes you get some they forgot to harden. My good drill bits will twist before breaking if pushed to hard. The cheap ones are a couple crap shoot.
@@moosesmachinery If you can find one or 2 dependable brands (with unpronounceable names) you can get some good tools for cheap, but it could take several tries to find the better quality.
That's why I like buy old used tools, good material, made with pride, in a time when businesses had to build good quality to sell their product.
Cheers
Old tools are not available everywhere. You can only get them in places that had a lot of tools long ago. If it was never there you're just not going to find it now. Because it ain't there. It never was. It's kind of like archeology in a way. Sure you can dig artifacts up out of the ground. But you have to dig in the right places to have any hope of finding them. If you dig where no one ever settled you're not going to ever find anything. It simply isn't where you're digging.
No guarantee the quality is better tbh.
@@HandyWyo there are no true guarantees. That's one thing life has taught me.
I've bought some off-brand drill bits and saw blades before, you just have to keep in mind that they are low quality and use them as such.
Here in Germany, we have a saying which would translate into „buy cheap, buy twice“.
Nice demonstration of this, mate ✌️😎
Happy New year mate love the content 👍
Ah yes, the old saying "You get what you pay for" comes to mind...
Have a wonderful New Year's Day!!!
Looking forward to more of your fantastic videos!!
Exactly that.
Dents and scratches on ground surfaces are a warning that the metal may be soft. Real HSS is 62-68 HRC, and are very hard to scratch or dent. The scammers advertise the drills (and other tools) are made from HSS, and when you get them you can instantly tell they aren't HSS, but some alloy of questionable heritage. Amazon does nothing about this, they take no responsibility for false advertising.
😢
I’m guessing they came from them all being thrown in a pile/ bin while being made instead of being kept separated.
worth going for the amazon reccomended ones in this case cause then they do take responsibility.
You expect anything from scamazon?
@@TalRohanexcellent point on the Amazon recommendation. I love that return policy.
Good video, thanks for all the effort. I've been using annular cutters with a Morse taper (or R8, et.) adapter, lathe or mill. More accurate size, great finish, quicker and less horsepower required. The only con is being economically limited to 2" depth. A bonus though is a plug left over that can be used for other project
2:37 That's the place for a Jacobs 20N chuck, and those are pretty big.
Inches were redefined at some point to be exactly 25.4mm to the inch, so you could argue that inches are just a subset of metric. That said, I have some of those drills and they make such a horrible hole that you would always finish off with a decent drill, or bore to size. They are only good for roughing, so just treat them as "undersize" drills.
I bought an Imperial set of Blacksmith's drills from a reputable dealer a few years back, they came in a blow moulded case. They all worked fine, but the 5/8" one obviously wasn't even hardened, you could mark it with a standard file ! A complaint got me a suitable replacement and I've used them ever since. They do tend to chip or fracture their outer cutting edge when I'm using them onsite in my cordless, but thats mostly down to me "step drilling" to make big holes with my battery Makita !
Great video. I suppose the other point about Demming bits is the torque on the bit from cutting is generally more than the chuck may be designed for. Obviously a 13mm (or 16mm) chuck is designed to cope with the cutting torque from 13 or 16mm bits. A 25mm bit will be roughly 2x that torque for a 13mm chuck, or 50% more for a 16mm chuck.
For this reason I think the MT bits are the go. FWIW I've used the Hare & Forbes MT2 HSS sets and they've been quite OK.
Thank you for mentioning this channel by the way. It's just my cup of tea.
Hey need more videos of Tiffany please
Ha! I bought this exact same set awhile back. They chatter like crazy because the grind wasnt right as you stated. I use mine more of a roughing drill as you mentioned and then finish the size out with a boring bar when possible
I’ve been eyeballing this set on Amazon. If nothing else they are probably a good set to buy if you want to practice sharpening twist drills.
happy new year.
thanks for sharing your video,s.
cheers ben.
I have a suggestion for your next Shop Project...
Build yourself a drill holder for the grinder so you can ensure your sharpening is symmetrical and at the proper angle...Bonus Points if it can handle ALL your drills, from 1/8th inch all the way up to 3 inch if you ever buy (or build) a drill that large...
😄😁😆😅😂🤣
Your results are significantly better than I got from a similarly sized set obtained from Bangood. The problem with my drills is that they were not hard enough. I even tried heat treating a couple, but the steel was not responding. So mine are a dead loss.
Thanks for the video. It's educational.
This proves yet again that you pay for what you get.
If it's a cheapo set and it works, have at it, otherwise look elsewhere.
I've bought a few sets of those over the years, on the same premise - break or wear one of the set out, replace it with a good quality bit. Most went okay, but I did have one set that were terrible, they actually bent in use. These days I use annular cutters for any hole over 13mm in diameter unless I am doing the drilling in the lathe. I have good quality bits all the way up to 22mm on the replace it if I broke it premise for use in the lathe.
One day I will be brave enough to stick an annular cutter in the lathe! Being able to take a 30mm slug out would give my boring bars a lot of relief!
Even some once great names in drills can have bad grinds. I was once making some bolt action pens using 304 stainless. The closest drill I found to the size I wanted for the main clearing cut came out of a Precision Twist Drill index. It was terrible. At first I thought it was just work hardening on me, but after hand grinding the drill I did a dozen pens without sharpening it again, and I am confident it was still sharp. In fact I was able to push so hard and fast with it that the knives of steel would reach out of the hole and almost hit my hand on the back of the tail stock in seconds if I didn't pause to break chips.
You need import calipers too, then it will be spot on.
Also bought a set of reduced shanks. But no issues, always go through my tools distributor with important tooling. The reduced distance stops runout. Stand with feet apart when sharpening. Practice makes perfect. Tools4Industry.
I had assumed that in this context "high speed steel" meant it was made very quickly, but perhaps it describes the tools flight to the bin :-)
Or dulls very quickly
I have the exact set (right down to the foam between the smaller drills arriving ripped off) sold under the Nikko(?) brand. I just wanted a complete set. Ended up using them for some very real 1/2" and 1" steel plate. In my big mill, 3HP, 3PH, 100RPM, they did just fine. It definitely appears there's a different, harder steel close to the tip, which I've seen in other name brand drills.
They're not going to outlive me, for sure. But they do the job. I wouldn't advise using them in a hand drill unless you hate yourself (and your drill, and your work) but in a pinch they work.
Biggest advice I can give is to throw that Jacob’s chuck in the trash and only use ER collets to hold the drill bits in the tail stock. It improved my drilling experience tremendously especially with the super small bits. With a collet I can be assured that the drill bit will not slip marring the surface of the drill and destroying its concentricity.
Happy New Year from Canada.
I have what looks like an identical set of drill bits. Same box too. I've had them for a couple of years now. Got them from Amazon for around £15 from Amazon. They were advertised as HSS-Co, wasn't expecting it to be at that price 😂
I needed a 16mm hole in some aluminium during lock-down while working in London. This was the cheapest and quickest way to get it done. I've only used them a handful of times since, most are still in their individual bags.
No chips in the finish of mine but being a budget set they only ever get used on soft materials.
I just bought a 115 piece TiN index from harbor freight here in the states. For 48 dollars I wasn’t expecting much but I’m planning to replace the most used bits with more solid brands once I need to, and as a bonus I get to keep using the sheet metal box they came in for organization.
I bought a set of 29 1/16-1/2" cobalt drills from HF for around $25, and they're the real deal. Others have been junk except a 1/16-1/4" set I got for $5. They were real HSS, still great after 20 years. So it's hit-and-miss!
I bought the black oxide 115 Harbor Freight set back in the day when it was the princely sum of $29.95 just to see how bad they really are. I still use that index. For mild steel it's OK. I wouldn't try drilling anything hard with those bits. Over the years as I've found them I've been putting better quality bits into the index too. For an amateur I'd say it's a buy.
@@1pcfredYep. The biggest thing with those cheap sets is, as long as the grinds aren't just complete garbage, they get you drilling. They make a hole, and especially when you're just starting out that's all most people are looking for.
@@OWSNubbles when I'm drilling a hole past a half an inch I just want a big hole of approximate size. I'm not concerned about precision at that scale. Anything in the ballpark will do.
In curious why you didn’t go mid grade? Your drill (ryobi) is mid grade and I use some ryobi tools because they get the job done in most use cases (like my leaf blower and snow blower although electric snow blowers just don’t have the hp needed yet)
I’d imagine there are likely some drill bit sets in the $100-150 range that would likely offer a good bang for the buck
They are NOT worse than I think. Do not underestimate how bad I think they are! 😉
I do the same thing hahah!!
Even printed and laminated some charts for converting and convenience around the shop 😏🤜🏼🤛🏼
For drilling big holes I am using euroboor anullar cutters with an arbor and they are amazing.
Yep but only useful for short depths and through holes only.
On a lathe I wouldn't use blacksmith or reduced shank drills (well I have a few in the 12mm to 16mm range which have all been reduced to 10mm to save time when using a collet chuck) because you have a Morse taper available in the tailstock which is so much better to use.
Bought very similar drills, the short length of the would suit my mill with limited z axis. I regrinded at my work with a automatic drillgrinder before i even tried them. the tip was quite offcenter on several of them. Bought them as a roughing tool also so I dont need them to be as good as namebrand but would be nice if they survived a couple of holes before touch up. I actually bought them in the food store. It is the german Lidl chain which are big warehouses there. Here in Sweden it is just only a small food store but a couple of aisles where it could be just about anything for this week. So schnitzels and drills at the same time
What's funny is 19mm is an almost perfect match for 3/4", only .002" difference, and that's the one that's the furthest off.
Working with wrenches, though, 13/16" and 20mm are interchangeable in nearly every application. 7/8" and 22mm also. 15/16" and 24mm as well. Wrenches don't need to be as precision as drill bits, but you get the idea.
I bought a very similar set of drills and they were GREAT... practice for sharpening drills.
Wow😂. Thanks for taking one for the team.
I wanted to make a video about these, or similar. I bought the ones from Lidl (don't know of you have that over there).
My experience was not great, they were ground very badly. They managed to grind the cutting edges _smaller_ than the outer diameter of the drills, so all the drills rubbed and locked up when drilling more than 5mm deep.
But after regrinding they were reasonably ok. The biggest problem being my 350W lathe motor not coping with the larger diameters
in steels, the composition, the heat treatment and grain size counts for hardness and durability. Depending of factory control, is very easy to neglect the grain size and heat treatment.
Hundreds of years ago these would have been miracle tools compared to everything else. All things being relative. Today competition is more fierce.
You could grind or mill 3 flats into the Frost drill bits. Mr. Pete did a video on this some time ago. It’s not rocket science, but an example of how much better it works at least. Good video sir.
Usually the shank end of bits isn't hardened. So it can be machined. I think it's left soft so you don't mess up your chuck and it can grip? I've dug grooves into plenty of bit shanks and had to file them away. So it seems soft to me.
@@1pcfred -they are left soft on purpose, as harden jaws and harden drill shanks wouldn’t work very well together 😬
With unknown quality of the drill bits (with all the chips and the size inconsistencies) and how they’re produced, they could’ve harden the entire drill bit 🤷🏼♂️
@@orangetruckman that's why I figured shanks aren't hardened. But with cheap bits who knows what they did with them.
Silver & Deming was a machine tool builder, which made a drill presses the that either had a spindle bore or holder (not sure which) that had a 1/2" hole. I recall them to be referred to as "Deming" machines. These drills were developed so that larger sizes would fit he bore. (We owned companies such as Cleveland Twist Drills)
I feel so lucky being in the US getting so much really good old taps, drills, hss blanks, and anything else you want on the second hand market for a really good price
I bought a set of Silver and Demming large drill bits. They are a step or two above garbage. They tend to chatter and make hexagon holes instead of nice round holes. You need to use several sizes and work your way up to the final size. In regards to drilling holes over one half inch I just have two words to say..........annular bits. I bought a few sizes and will never use anything but them on large holes. NO chatter and you start with the proper size. Perfectly round holes, no rimming around the edge, and smooth work faces. They take a special chuck as they are actually meant for use in magnetic drills but I bought a cheap chuck that fits the #2 Morse taper of my 5?8 inch drillpress and you just insert the annular bits into the lower end and tighten the two set screws and start drilling. The bits are pricey but worth it in my opinion.
Looks like you got a box of adventures for Christmas 😅
Drills are very minorly tapered from the cutting end to the held end to prevent jamming from chips or if it is not perpendicular to the job,
the cutting edges on the flutes can like you showed be stoned or linished to get them smooth ish again, they do every now and then need a touch up from either a bump or bingle or using them in a cord/less drill to enlargen hole etc.
The web can be thinned on large drills to enhence cutting/drilling large diameter hole with a tiny on no pilot hole
Also those drills could just need a quenching or tempering to get them to a more exceptable hardness
Most are but as I said in the video these have no taper, strange isn’t it.
Good man! another fountain pen user 🙂
I use cheap RS drills like these quite frequently in both drill press and CNC mill, so far haven't had any major issue besides a chipped edge when I entered the cut with bad feeds/speeds. That's entirely operator error tho.
Gave it a new edge with the drill doctor and have been working great since.
Granted I would really recommend only using them in thicker material where the sides get proper support from whatever you're drilling into.
Handdrilling I wouldn't use them in anything else than wood or plastic.
Like with any tool you always need to be very mindful of their limitations. I wouldn't try going from a 4mm hole to 25mm with a RS drill and also pushing it hard into the material. You really need to properly predrill to use these sizes. 😁
Edit: Seeing/hearing all the problems your drillset has, they must've been of exceptionally bad quality. 😳
I snapped one of my el cheapo big drills clean in half once. I welded it back together and I still use it. It makes me laugh every time I do. Because it still works as good, or bad, as it ever did.
My guess is they are buying discarded tooling that never met the already questionable QC in bulk and were throwing it in boxes they sourced.
Flipside, good video and cheap crap to mess with :)
They made metric inches quite a while ago when the inch was standardized to 25.4mm.
Or 24.5mm in some cases🤣
That's it. The modern inch is the Standard inch. A Swede named Carl Edvard Johansson came up with it in 1896. Then a bloke named Henry Ford really took a shine to the idea. What old Henry wanted the world got too. He was a very persuasive guy.
I was lucky and was able to find a whole milk crate of Morse taper bits at an antiques shop with MT1-MT4 in all different sizes I have only used a couple MT2 ones and don't see myself ever needing any of the larger tapers in my home hobbies.
I also happen to have "cheap" store bought "titanium coated" drill bits, and the quality is vast between a premium store brand/name brand and the harbor freight/princess auto quality or worse unamed chinesium. Dewalt and Canadian Tire's Mastercraft Maximum branded drill bits are relatively cheap and they are sharp, straight, well polished, and they drill through steel like hard butter on a cold day. My digital calipers reads .0005 variation, I dont have a set of certified gages or micrometer to asses in the lower range.
I wonder if the ground outer diameter is concentric and parallel with the shank? You could probably figure that out by puting them in a collet on the mill and checking with a test indicator. Given the other problems, I wouldn't be surprised if they were at least a bit out of whack there too.
Try a 13 or 14mm pilot drill takes alot of tool pressure off and you will get a better finish
Been a contractor for a while knew day one on site anything other than Makita, Milwaukee, Hilti doesn't last or do the job efficiently.
Spend the money on quality tools and they'll look after you for life.
Drills like the one shown are good for your mums domestic needs around the house
I have the same Set you got but mine are stamped 1" - 25mm on the collar. Seems like they just don't care about the last half mm in the factory. In my experience the steel they use is absolute rubbish I resharpen my drills about every 25-30mm of material thickness. Thats why I personaly upgraded my lathe drills to a set of Ruko Terax Morse taper Drills very quickly. The set cost me only double what the import set did and they do great! I will be staying away from noname import HSS tooling in the future.
I'd say all those drills are good for is hogging out material before a more precise boring process, and maybe centre pinches in the future.
The more I see of these type of tools the less I like them, I bought 3 sets of drill bits recently, one known expensive set of six which cost more than the set in a holder and a 100box put together but you know weirdly the cheap set of a hundred works better than the middle priced set, theyre supposed to be cobalt drills but they really suck, they break very easily and usually dramatically where the cheap ones bend. The expensive cobalt ones of course outshine both sets but I don't want to use those for drilling wood out of a hammer eye. I would buy the cheap ones again but not the middle priced set.
All that waffling said, I was looking at some of these big drills but I think I will go with a different set of blacksmiths drill bits with a gaurantee on them
Thanks for sharing and happy new year
Cheap import imperial tools are very often metric with “close enough” imperial labelling. You see 6mm drills labeled as 1/4” all the time. For cheap stuff I never believe the labels, I gotta measure em.
Chinesium...
Kinda on par...as they say "Buy once, cry once"
Definitely look into building/buying a drill bit sharpener...especially if you can build one where you can grind in a relief on the back side for drilling metal
I wonder if you could re-heat treat them to see if you can make them harder?
Keep em coming!!!!
Lots of Chinese products are poor because of poor heat treating, so I was thinking the same thing.
See Harold Hall's design for a 4 facet drill sharpening jig. It is simple to build and works extremely well. All Chinese stuff isn't the same cheap crappo quality....it is the same thing wherever you buy from,if the price is so low to dictate poor quality that is exactly what you should expect. A decent set of HSS Blacksmiths drills would be no less than £80.00 GBP.
You can buy the best and still end up crying at a later date. Life's funny like that sometimes.
@@howardosborne8647 Awesome good stuff there...thanks!!!!
ruclips.net/video/Ry02Y4SZeds/видео.html
I bought that same set, (pretty sure, case looks the same) with the expectation that they will survive about… 3 holes each, without precision. My need for holes that large is rare and far between, and never needs precision of any serious degree, so ‘good enough’.
I have my wooden box of oversized reduced shank bits. Like you say it's not something I need all the time but when I need it then I need it. If I needed it more I'd have better bits.
I think I have the exact same set (I bought it about year ago). I never messured mine, but the first time I used the smallest drill from the set, the drill snapped in half in mild steel. So I guess, I don't have to messure that one.
Great video as always and have a great start in 2024.
Metric greating from Germany ;-)
A couple of comments......... your correct about the materials cheap ones are made of. Buy better quality from a good seller ( better value in the long run). I use Rennie tools ( just a pleased customer, no connection). Most people run these larger drill bits too fast. Try to use a bench drill. Hand drills are far too fast. At the end of the day you get what you pay for!
Drill shank on the frost drill is probably soft so you could machine three flats rather than grind?
May I suggest a way to use these drills and they can work well enough.
Make a tool holder that you can fit to the turret/tool post. It can align on the entire part for the chuck and push from the shoulder. No slips , no bends and the ultimate lazy part you can auto feed the drill with the carriage. It will keep your tail stock nice as well as the drill chuck for finer work.
With big drills like these, the main thing to remember, is to run them slow. Its uncoated low quality HSS. With that kind of tool material I stick to between 20 and 25 m/min. ✌
Ha! I feel the same way about metric as you do about imperial. If I have to use it I will, but not by choice.
It would be interesting to see you clean them all up sharpen and heat treat them and then retest to see if they could end up a better deal with elbow grease .
I know your in brissy somewhere, The trade tools "renegade" brand china stuff is fairly good! got a heap of shop, hand and consumable tools from there and all are very good for their price.
Happy New Year man
Could you grind some flats onto the shanks of the better drills? To help them grip better?
I have bought those reduced shank metric drills 20-25pcs and about 1/3 of those has been total waste of money and scrap. 1/3 of those were quite good and rest 1/3 not so good but usable. I bought those drills individually because I assumed if I buy whole set the quality is same in every bit in set.
what you have there are industrial waste bits. these of QC rejects from some factory, and has collected them, to sell them off as "whatever"...
The dings, dents, and other surface blemishes are more than likely caused from them dropped into a massive bin of the exact same parts. at the end of the day, quality control sets them aside to be destroyed / remade, and someone's selling those off.
There's still hope though.
In this case, if you have a nice grinding stone, chuck the oversized drills, and grind and polish the outside diameter to the required size, then regrind all of the tips, and you'll be good to go. i.e.
Grind the following bit diameters:
23.90 -> 23.00 (or 23.50 if you like the half sizes)
18.50 -> 18.00 (or leave it be for the half size)
17.90 -> 17.00 (again, you can go to 17.50 for the half size)
13.80 -> 13.00 (yet another half size option)
Because the diameter dependencies are so minute, you can literally just grind these into tolerance, the webbing and flutes won't really matter much. Just be sure after you grind them to diameter, you back-relieve the flute edges, and tips so they don't rub
I also want to point out, that deceptively, it's easier to hand grind small drills than it is to grind larger drills. If you can, invest in a grinding jig, i kn ow it's not the "cool" thing to do, but you'll get a more even, more consistent cutting edge every time, and you'll waste a lot less drill material with each subsequent regrind.
A drill bit only cuts with the tip . The flutes are made to clear the chips . Always drill the hole progressivly .( Pilot drill ) the tip of a bit that large does nothing but skid , that is why you pilot drill the hole first .
Interesting lesson on how not to grind a drill bit. I have a 25 mm drill like that which didn't want to make good chips and now I am sure it lacks the relief, but it was new and I thought it could not possibly require to regrind it out of the box.
I've seen plenty of cheap drills that were ground wrong right from the factory. Some so bad there's no chance they could ever drill a hole. Reliefs completely backwards even. With the cutting edge diving down. You get what you pay for. Maybe. If you're good at sharpening drills you can almost always improve over factory grinds even in the best of cases.
The small bits often sold for drilling electronics PCBs are by far the worst.
I have bought from numerous Chinese sellers over the years, and usually the drills under 3mm have reverse clearance, with zero chance of even cutting plastic... well, except by melting their way through.
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The last few batches (including 100 supplied with a pin vice that I wanted) had absolutely no grinding at all. They were dead flat across the end, so no wonder I wouldn't get them to start 😂
@@johncoops6897 I use much smaller diameter bits than 3 mm drilling out printed circuit boards. Sometimes less than a millimeter. But sharpening those bits up right is beyond me. So one day I just ground a point on one and it drilled OK. So that's what I do with them now. I don't know where the point geometry stops working. Even 2 mm size bits those I can grind. But the really tiny ones I just grind points on them. They drill like that.
@@1pcfred - yeah, the little ones are hard to sharpen. I can get 2 good edges down to 0.9mm using a diamond stone and lots of magnification. On high quality 0.7mm I can usually get them to work pretty good.
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I will try your trick with the V point, which I know will work with a powered drill. I want to test if that works with the hand drill (pin vice) that I use.
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One batch of cheap bits wasn't even hardened. So no matter what, the fiberglass PCBs just destroy those, sometimes before even making one hole 😃
@@johncoops6897 I don't know how good pointing up miniature drills would work with hand drivers. I use a high speed mini press. But with that it works good for me.
I was going to buy a set just like that one. Good thing I didn't got it. Thanks for the review you save me a headache.
The problem with cheap products is inconsistency so you can't buy a set just like this one. As they're all a bit different. So I wouldn't put much stock in one experience myself.
They all cut OK and we're the correct hardness for non cobalt hss. A pilot hole and a regrind and they will all cut fine. Does anyone else manage to grind drills with one hand on the top by the grinding wheel?
The OEM for those hardness files is Japanese - Tsubosan
I wouldn't say I particularly prefer metric or imperial, but switching back and forth can be a pain in the butt.
I work in fairly large factory in the US that does contract manufacturing for medical devices, *mostly* designed by US companies. A lot of the newer parts that come through (designed post-1990 or so) are all metric, but a lot of the old pieces are still imperial nominal sizes and prints because that was the manufacturing process the FDA signed off on, and changing it will require their approval, so we're stuck with it until someone decides to retire the design and replace it.
The more annoying cases are those rare occasions where a print is a mix of the two. There are these parts we make a lot of where the print calls out a 5mm hole with a +/- .05 tolerance, no big deal. That same hole also has a 12-48 UNS thread, which calls for.193-.198" on the minor diameter which works to 4.9mm-5.03mm.
So because of how they overlap, our tolerance on both is cut down and the actual acceptable size for the hole is *neither* of the ranges listed on the print, it's 4.95-5.03.
The other part that gets me is the decimal places. If a feature's .005mm oversize, no big deal. .005"? Way more of a problem, and probably scrap.
Perhaps the 25mm drill bit was ground down from a 1 inch original. It was marked 1 inch and had very little land left after grinding 0.4mm off.
Thank you !!
We've had good and bad experiences with these types of drills, the shanks (in our case anys, we found this out few months ago when trying to drill out hole, just grabbed a drill out of the drawer where most of drills came from ebay or som other auction, seen was "right" size and stuck in drill not paying attention to the condition of said drill, it was trashed, anyway took hammer to the shank cause it caused us time, to our surprise, the drill didn't shatter, it bent!) are not hardened so you should be able to put the drill part in the chuck of your lathe and shave the 1/2 inch shank down to make the drill run truer than was new. Of course you'll have to re-mill the flats, that is another thing to check out on these types of drills, sometimes the manufacturer does a piss poor job sitting these drills up for the reduced shank to be ground-milled in! Hope this helps, btw, we in the USA 🇺🇸 are being forced to deal with metric, just as happy as you are about dealing with fractional stuff, so it isn't the end of the world, do was we do, smile and cuss about it under your breathe 😂😂😂😂
1:31 This one of the reasons I don't buy anything from Ebay anymore. 10 items ordered 4 comes out without any hassle. Same items are usually cheaper and/or with faster delivery times (Aliexpress, Amazon, Banggood). In some cases Ebay seller items have arrived as Amazon gifts.
I bought a cheap index of brad points and they were horrible lol. I've seen vids where the parts come of the machine and fall into a bucket. That could be part of whats happening to these drills. Also likely poor alloys and over used cutters. The steel on my bits looked like the steel was ripped off the bit rather than cut. I still use them, just not when I want an accurate hole.
The shank end that fits in the chuck is soft steel, so if your drill doesn't fit in your chuck just stick it in the lathe and turn it down til it does. I buy 'Blacksmith drills' with reduced shanks, never had a problem with quality but then mine don't come from China.
It's softer on top from your hand grinding. Chips on the flutes indicate its very hard and were transported in bins. They ground the o.d. till cleanup not a spec size. Using a belt sander works better for touchups. You get what you pay for, a drills justca rougher anyway. Reamers hold sizes
I wouldn’t expect so, hss should hold its temper (unless it isn’t hss which is quite possible) but the flutes weren’t much better. Compare that to the frost cutting edge which was 65 plus hrc. And I ground that one too. Cheers
you have an mt3 taper in the tailstock - get proper mt3-drills,i went to an acution and got like a half a wheelbarrel full of good quality drills up to mt4 45mm. i payed close to nothing for them,wera,dormer,wurt and several other high quality brands-they all needed some minor tlc,but one of the best buys i have done in years
i like how they paint them goldish-brown to mimic a look of a good cobalt drill )