The biggest issue I have now is that they are pointing the finger at Safariland and saying that their holsters are the problem and that you should go with Alien Gear for a holster. How do I know this? The Sig LE rep stated it to me in my office when trying to sell me the 320. Really? Instead of admitting there's a problem with your product, they point the finger at the holster maker! They'll just keep getting sued and try to settle these suits out of court by getting people to sign non-disclosures attached to checks to keep them quiet.
Local law enforcement had an issue with the safariland lightbearing holsters where you could slip a finger into the holster and pull the trigger. Guess they were arresting somebody, they were going for the officer's gun, and managed to pull the trigger with the gun holstered. Not really an issue, more of something to be aware of.
Yup, that's why I specifically noted it was a lightbearing holster. I've also been seeing spent casings and other crap getting lodged in between the ALS and the pistol causing lockup issues (can't draw the gun or can't get it to seat properly). Overall, I'm not surprised by ADs and NDs with holster work, too many people are trying the instagram speed holster without verifying it's clear, drawing faster than their brain and body can handle, and generally having poor understanding of their equipment.
Preponderance of the evidence is the burden the plaintiff had to meet for his civil jury trial. Meaning, the jury found that his evidence showed, more likely than not, that Sig’s negligent design of the P320 caused it to go off without him pulling the trigger. Their decision as a federal civil jury would likely have to been unanimous. So, 12 people found that the guy’s evidence showed Sig was at fault by 51%. Without attending the trial or talking to the jurors afterwards, it’s hard to gauge how potent his case was aside from the holster and the gun failing to cycle described in the complaint, but I would feel warm under the collar if I was Sig’s insurance carrier. Sig will start motions for the court to set aside the verdict or to order a new trial next. After that, an appeal could come down the pipeline. But, we shall see how much they puff out their chest and keep saying “No one has proven it!”
IF there was, and that’s a big if, the right and legal thing to do would be to recall the defective products, not really a tough situation other than for the bottom line.
Well..... Remember the recall where there was a voluntary option to send your P320 FCU in for an update? Yeah... Pepper ridge farm remembers and guaranteed that came up in discovery. Since it revolves around the design itself.
They did admit a design flaw , the Military sent back, they fixed and sold the sent back fixed guns to the civilian market to get the money back they lost ..Sold to the military for $207 then sent back with problems , same guns were fixed and then sold for $6-700 to dumb ass civilians ....
Doesn't seem like the 320 was a well engineered pistol. It was originally a hammer fired design (P250) that nobody liked and was morphed into a striker gun. p365 was designed from the ground up to be what it is. The article claims lack of a trigger safety is a dangerous/defective feature but the p365 doesn't have one and I bet you more folks carry some form of 365 versus the p320. Where are all the p365 lawsuits? something isn't right here.
I did find that weird. "Ooh this doesn't have a dingus safety, therefore it's dangerous." That's it? Fully expected something more to be going on here. I.e., and these are just examples, but... sheet metal of the FCU warping and not holding trigger group mechanisms like it should. Firing pin/drop safety not working as intended. The gun's susceptibility for OOBD, the list goes on. But it's just the lack of a trigger blade safety that was the issue? I've just read the article and am wondering if I'm missing something?
@kevinallies1014 umm no you are wrong sir. They go off in kydex duty holsters as well. If you look at the design you will quickly realize the design flaws. The 320 is a bad design and has so much wrong with this. The 320 can also detonate before it goes fully back into battery which is also crazy dangerous.
@@lon242I don’t know anything about this case but convincing non-technical people that a design is bad because some slick lawyer says it is does not seem like much of a stretch to me. There’s a reason that they don’t select technical people for juries, they don’t want the questioning mind asking too many questions.
As an engineer with both manufacturing and design experience, the P320 has never inspired confidence. Its internal safety devices are suspect in both metallurgy and function. I believe that there is a failure mode that, while rare and hard to reproduce, has dire consequences for the carrier of the pistol that cannot simply be prevented by following safe gun handling doctrine. When all of this started coming out, I decided that a fully energized striker is a bad idea, and I switched to Glock. You are relying on the internal safety mechanisms working as intended 100% of the time. These mechanisms can fail to function for any number of reasons, and I believe this is why *some* of the P320s are going off. Some are just gross negligent cops just trying to save face.
A friend of mine had his go off in his holster and hit his knife, bullet skipped off the knife and left a big bruise. If you search "Gunghis P320" you will find his video called "my p320 tried to shoot me". I personally know the guy so its kind of close to home. 100% Sig fixed whatever the problem was. But if there was any internal communications about this, they would have been subpoenaed/included in Discovery during the trial. I have not read the case of anything like that, though.
So even in that video you can see his belly rolls going over the holster and he's wearing a loose shirt, used to have a 320 x-carry so I followed most the incidents, it's very clear for that case he's chubby and that caused material to be pushed over into the holster area plus his went off while he was running against the clock so clearly he was rushing too much combined with one too many donuts
I never thought the "lighter" trigger bow would solve the problem. When I saw someone hit the back of the slide with a rubber mallet, while holding the gun horizontal, and the gun would detonate the primer in an empty case, to me, it seemed like it had to be more. The sear failed at that point and the firing pin block also couldn't have been functioning correctly. It was a crap gun when it was called the 250 and it's still a crap gun after they threw a striker in it. Heck, it seems like it's actually a worse gun now.
The sear is not strongly enough held in place. Maybe they have fixed it. Rather than adapt a hammer fired gun to striker in a hurry to win the contract they should have started with a clean striker design.
I think it’s funny how Serpa holsters, which have caused very few injuries though what everyone knows is improper use (granted, caused by a design that lends itself to improper use) are shunned in many areas of the firearms world, and yet Sig’s P320 design is defended so vehemently by its supporters, even though it has injured far more people and MAY be through an actual fault of the gun. It’s such a double standard when a brand is deemed too sacred for criticism.
I just took a firearms handling class. They had many rules, but there were 3 that I remember now. No Sig P320 allowed No Taurus GX4 allowed. No Serpa holsters allowed.
The 320 is a fully cocked striker with no inertial safety built into the trigger. And frankly the way they designed their "striker block" doesn't exactly inspire confidence, nore does the very small amount of sear engagement on the striker itself. Between the multiple instances of failed drop tests, "soft recalls", and various lawsuits they have had (many of which settled out of court to avoid exactly what just happened) this is a weapon that was *at best* designed poorly. People will say "but the m&p is a fully cocked striker!" And that's true. But it also has an inertial safety in the trigger, and frankly when is the last time you heard anything about an M&P having shake awake on the weapon itself?
The idea of a fully-cocked striker without redundant safeties is wild. That's what always made me cringe about the 320. People say its fixed now, but if its still fully-cocked at rest then its not fixed IMO. There's a reason why 1911's have two external safeties. There's a price to pay for that crisp trigger, and Sig didn't want to pay it, so the result is an unsafe pistol.
@@coffeeandlifting I remember the amount of flack the Hudson got for not having a manual safety with such a short trigger, but even that gun had an inertial safety in the trigger.
What worried me about my P320 was it had a short throw trigger and was at full cock in battery with no manual safety. On top of that, any wiggle between the slide and the frame is potentially wiggling the sear faces against each other. The striker in in the slide, the trigger sear is in the frame. If only there was a pistol with all its trigger and hammer components in the frame, immune to discharge from slide slop. If such a pistol existed, I think I'd party like it's 1911. ;-)
I’d never buy any modern sig handgun or rifle im at a large retailer and I really despise the company and products I think they are junk had so many come back with issues, and Sig uses its customers as QC team.
@@WildManActual They did admit it to the military --- the fixed guns were then sold on the civilian market for 6-700 for a 4-500 dollar mark up to get the money they lost back..
The voluntary recall for canik caused me to never even consider them again, I don't trust sig now, smith and Wesson revolvers seem to be trash now, Taurus is like 10% garbage ( maybe yours is the 90%, maybe not)
And now there’s video evidence of a cop’s Sig going off in the holster while he was bending over in Montville, CT. I wonder if that was mentioned in this case?
I'm keenly interested in this subject due to the fact that I use a P320 X5 as my primary competition pistol in USPSA. It is of recent manufacture (2023). I have holstered a cocked pistol hundreds of times without the striker dropping unintentionally. I am aware of the possible issue and ALWAYS kick my hip out when holstering and will continue to do so with any pistol when holstering. My aerospace engineer Dad always warned me to steer clear of new model autos and I feel it's the same with newly designed anything. Look at the issues the Hudson and DD H9 have had. It takes time to refine them and it's unfortunate that early adopters end up as beta testers because the companies want to see a ROI sooner rather than later. If you don't wish to roll the dice, don't be an early adopter. At least now we have the internet and are able to educate ourselves. In the old days, you'd just hear anecdotes and were never really able to corroborate the rumors. For myself, I feel like the number of incidents with respect to the number of P320s out in the market make the probability of me, personally, having the issue to be extremely low but it still possibly exists and is worth being mindful of. Every one of these incidents involves a holster and that instructs me on when I need to exercise caution. Every consumer must consider their own risk tolerance. For some, they've abandoned the platform and that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. There's plenty of other options out there. For me the X5 has the right mix of features to make it a compelling choice despite the risks. Plenty of people have driven Pintos and Telsas that did not meet their demise in a conflagration although is was possible that they could have.
They did "fix it" so to speak. A few people brought this up one was an armorer or gun smith. I need to see if i can find the exact post, the post showed p320 slides from different years that had multiple internal design changes that wasn't publicly announced. So multiple changes were made to the guns throughout the years relating to how the internals function. A few companies also have pictures on their websites for when you get a non optic ready slide to be milled theres some interations they wont touch.
Should've been tipped off after seeing the P365 have a different internal design, never had a problem with my 320 but could never trust it fully, still carried it normally but glad I got rid of it, was already hard enough selling but now....
What’s that from? Like how females want males with bad credit, poor financial management skills, low iq…etc because they want to fix them; natural motherhood
Bought a recent manufactured p320 this year, and I love how it shoots, but the lack of blade safety does put me off a bit. I won't consider carrying it until there is a blade safety, but I think Sig should simply just add a grip or blade safety stock, and or lean in a little more into the P226/P229/ SP2022 series. I'd love a revamp of the 2022.
I had a motorcycle crash with a P320, and it went flying out of my holster. It didn't fire. I have thousands of rounds through it, and it never fired by itself. I trust it at this point.
Screw sig, they lied about all this and I base that on the sheer number of complaints and all the testimonies of people showing how it happens. Plus their new stuff seems to be junk or copies of another product.
No video to prove the 320 can fire out of battery is necessary. I remember SIG ITSELF was advertising this ability as a feature when the 320 was released.
As someone that loves the p226 and my MCX Virtus, I can’t believe sig hasn’t been sued into the ground. I would give anything to know what their legal team allocation is. Atleast 50% of their net. A lot of companies have gone out of business for a lot less. Government contracts have to be keeping them alive.
Update- The Michigan State Police just went to the Sig 320 recently with the Alien Gear holster as recommended by Sig. They had a Trooper walking through the squad room at the Cadillac Post with a Gatorade in one hand and a laptop in the other and the gun went off striking a Trooper in the foot. SOOOOO it's not a holster problem, it's a gun problem!! I know some higher-ups in MSP who state that this incident is on body cam but they have it locked down so no one can see it. I was also told that they signed Non-Disclosures as well. I guess we just have to wait until someone dies for Sig to do the right thing.
Tens of thousands of rounds thru my 320 x5 , not to mention X5 is one of the most popular guns for CO , at least in my area, without any issues. We will never know what the actual truth is , people screw with actions and never willing to admit it amd lawyers are excellent insisting facts
I thought you had a contract with some Canadians that rolled with SIGs? Where those P320 and did they have tabbed triggers? I may be confused tho, it is not uncommon in my age.
I bought my p320x5 legion manf date 6/2021. I really didn't use it much until I started doing uspsa matches in 2023 and 2024 have shot couple thousand rounds through it no issues, I have been concerned about this issue, hopefully mine got fixed so far so good .
Same here. I bough mine new, and it was manufactured in 9/2019. I believe both of ours are 'post problem' from Sig. I.e., they do not have that flaw. I am definitely interested in confirming this though.
@@natei3518 Someone should compare the internals of an older P320 with one that was manufactured after 2019. It would be simple enough to figure out what changed. Shape of the sear? Overall Tolerances?
The sig p320 is a striker fired pistol with a light trigger pull and no trigger safety. The pros of this gun are what make it dangerous. With this type of gun you have to be extra careful not to pull the trigger when placing it in the holster or taking it out. The problem is some people have more confidence than competence and they wind up shooting themselves.
@@seann2769 recently becom disillusioned with my Glock 17. Gun feels great but trigger sucks. Had two bad experiences with it shooting USPSA Production. Looking to move to Beretta 92X now
After carrying a P320 at work and having a personal one, shooting thousands of rounds a year through both, they miraculously only fire when the trigger is pulled.
Say that to the multiple officers that are on YT and on multiple articles because their 320s fired by themselves. Multiple officers. Not just one. Also, they recalled the Sig Cross for having trigger problems. If they did that, is it still hard for you to believe that they are having trigger issues elsewhere? I feel like it just makes sense that the trend of bad triggers is a thing at Sig. I’m glad you haven’t experienced it and I’m sure it’s not every pistol. But, it’s a problem they gotta look into. Stay safe man.
Just so I understand, I gun went off in the holster by itself? Coincidently, at the exact same time it was being un-holstered. This is a mechanical object. If it truly is a design flaw, it should be very easy to reproduce the discharge. Betcha they didn't and/or couldn't reproduce the discharge.
Can you recreate a negligent discharge while it's still completely inside a kydex holster? If that's what it is it should be easy to reproduce with literally any striker fired gun, but I don't see how it's possible to pull the trigger when the force being applied is the opposite direction of a trigger pull, and it hasn't even moved enough to clear the holster yet. On the other hand it is completely untrue that mechanical failures due to faulty design are always easily reproduced. Intermittent issues are common in all types of machines.
@kevinallies1014 there is a firing pin block system but it is an idiotic design that used weak stamped metal parts when the P320 first came out. SIG replaced the cheap stamped parts after the drop test fails started happening. It is over complicated and poorly designed.
Sig 365 it wont fire on its own but it will Rust. Check your slides, a batch of 365s have this issue. I know somebody who works for Sig & they told me it was a finishing issue at the plant.
@@gansior4744 That's funny. I carried one IWB for 2 years, working without air conditioning in south Texas, and while the slide finish came off the left rear corner, there's not a bit of rust anywhere in or on my P365. These are days when - just at work - I'd be drinking a gallon of water every day.
@@immikeurnot Something not talked about terribly often is that material is occasionally sourced from different places. Even if it's nominally meant to be the same type of steel, for example, sometimes the composition will be of inferior quality. Given the recent supply chain issues, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I also wouldn't be surprised, given Sig's track record of QA, if the finish on the internal parts was simply poor on some batches, or if after the rust issues were discovered, Sig started to use a different steel on the internal components.
This is why I don't own Sigs. I'm okay with Glocks lower capacities because I get the peace of mind knowing that my gun won't discharge a round whenever it feels like it.
@@leftyo9589 Or to a really good legal team that quietly shuts people up with a lot of money if they think they are going to lose (which would be a failure in this case). And to a customer service team that is responsible for shipping all the guns back and forth that their machining is bad on.
Except Alex Jones lied, and siced his rabid fans on the victims and caused them to have to move, MULTIPLE TIMES, due to harassment and death threats. One father even offed himself because of it. Alex Jones is a piece of shit who deserves to lose everything for being a lying POS. The two are not the same.
Military chose Sig not because it was "Modular" because it was cheaper then Glock. Simple as that. Military chose cost over safety when it came to arming our Soldiers. Wild.
Crazy that they recalled the Sig Cross Bolt Gun for trigger issues and now every Sig fanboy is saying the P320 doesn’t fire on its own. Isn’t it suspicious that they recall a gun for trigger issues and deny it when multiple people including LEO are saying the gun just goes off on its own? Some things are in plain sight and obvious. It’s not even a question that they are using their military contract as leverage to raise prices on their average firearms and using the customers as quality control and as test and evaluation. What a rip off. I’ve never owned or will own an sig product.
sig's dismissive handling of the complaints is more disqualifying for me than the mechanical issues. they basically called impacted users liars and idiots the entire way down. i wouldn't give my business to a company that saw me that way, whether my gun blew up or not.
@kevinallies1014 dude they have been so many people showing how badly these guns have been doing it isn't just going off due to carelessness. These guns are poorly designed and have QC issues and even I've seen this in person. The gun is just fucking bad.
@@kyrozudesoya1829 Their users (including me) are beta testers for bad designs and QC testers for bad CNC processes. Their customer service pretty quickly just listens to your complaint, writes it down and sends you a mailing label. I've had to send in 4 Sig firearms that didn't work correctly from the factory or broke shortly after first firing. I do love my P22xs though. I don't own an original P210, but would like to.
The military is hiding the issue due to how they lost the legal battle with beretta and are in bed with Sig. I don’t own one, and only heard from the tactical response guys that one went off during the drop drill. Don’t know, don’t care.
"Due to design of the weapon, including that it lacked a trigger safety" In one of the other big cases, this was also an argument... it's almost like the trigger was pulled and they're after money 😮 From what I understand, none of these cases could reproduce the issue with the pistol. So, you think it's dumb to carry what's essential a SAO pistol without manual safety? Agreed. But, that's user choice and Sig shouldn't be held liable for the user's stupidity.
I own (and will be selling) a Sig p320 m18. I REALLY wanted to love this firearm. It fits my hand nicely, big ole beaver tail, and nice coyote color. Reality is, it's an inaccurate in-betweener firearm....too big to carry (iwb 3 o'clock) and too small for a favorite range gun. Hope it helps some resell value. We'll see.
I know people that still vouch for them, but I would personally never carry one. It would always have the creeping thought of an nd in the back of my mind.
I would be super interested in Bens take on Sig Mechanics video on the p320's safety mechanisms. I was super anti Sig 320 for awhile until I watched his striker safety mechanism. Not sure how the gun could go off without a trigger pull after watching it without there being some sort of insane defect in two areas of the gun. Sig mechanics video: ruclips.net/video/R0MpcFEXWhc/видео.html
I thought it would be about some case which one of their guns was used against others, this is completely justified and is the right outcome IMO. Your firearm that was designed and made in the 21st century should not being going off unless you make it fire, obviously in typical heavy use and maintenance.
Does anyone think it’s just a coincidence that Sig is this tied up in court cases? Glocks have been around for how long now? How many cases are they fielding if this is all operator error? Are idiots uniquely drawn to the older 320? Or is/was there a design flaw? I think this is the risk of “quiet fixes” and “rolling changes” instead of wholesale recalls. It’ll eventually bite you in the ass.
In 1997 I shot USPSA regularly with a guy who used a Sig in limited division, as limited and open were all that existed. He used carry gear, and was fairly competitive despite his equipment choice. This was the early days of IDPA, and there were few opportunities to shoot that discipline. He probably shot 40-50 matches a year. His 9mm Sig frame cracked about a year after purchase, so he sent it back to the factory, they replaced it. 6 months later his .40 Sig cracked, sent in, replaced. 6 months later (less than a year after frame replacement) the 9mm cracked again. Factory asked how many rounds he had shot through this pistol. He told them he estimated 5-6 thousand. They had a fit, told him he had exceeded the service life of the pistol, refused to repair it, and told him the crack was superficial. He said "fine, just return it to me, and I will show it to everyone at every match I attend". When returned, it had another frame. He traded all of his Sigs for 1911s. Point being, Sig has a long running habit of denial when it comes to their quality issues.
The first P320's had cheaper stamped steel parts used in the firing block mechanism which is located on the striker assembly itself. After people discovered the P320 would go off when dropped the firing pin block parts were redesigned and use cast and machined parts. The safety system is over complicated and silly compaired to Glock, Beretta, ect. If they had just had the P320 with a bladed trigger safety none of this would of happened.
@@vahngeo2260 oh ok... Because SIG totally never had that striker housing and firing pin block redesigned. They totally didn't change out what look to be MIM casting firing pin blocks( I forgot they weren't stamped parts) to steel ones and madebthe firing pin block captive at its hing point so it can't become dislodged. Nope they never did any of those changes lol!
The biggest issue I have now is that they are pointing the finger at Safariland and saying that their holsters are the problem and that you should go with Alien Gear for a holster. How do I know this? The Sig LE rep stated it to me in my office when trying to sell me the 320. Really? Instead of admitting there's a problem with your product, they point the finger at the holster maker! They'll just keep getting sued and try to settle these suits out of court by getting people to sign non-disclosures attached to checks to keep them quiet.
And I don’t get how a Safariland “bucket” with a lid could set it off… I’ve got a few.
Safariland never failed my m&ps, cz or glocks. Wonder why Sig..
Local law enforcement had an issue with the safariland lightbearing holsters where you could slip a finger into the holster and pull the trigger. Guess they were arresting somebody, they were going for the officer's gun, and managed to pull the trigger with the gun holstered. Not really an issue, more of something to be aware of.
@@db84drteg that’s any light bearing holster. The shape of the kydex has to allow for the light and that path is wider than the trigger guard.
Yup, that's why I specifically noted it was a lightbearing holster. I've also been seeing spent casings and other crap getting lodged in between the ALS and the pistol causing lockup issues (can't draw the gun or can't get it to seat properly).
Overall, I'm not surprised by ADs and NDs with holster work, too many people are trying the instagram speed holster without verifying it's clear, drawing faster than their brain and body can handle, and generally having poor understanding of their equipment.
Preponderance of the evidence is the burden the plaintiff had to meet for his civil jury trial. Meaning, the jury found that his evidence showed, more likely than not, that Sig’s negligent design of the P320 caused it to go off without him pulling the trigger. Their decision as a federal civil jury would likely have to been unanimous. So, 12 people found that the guy’s evidence showed Sig was at fault by 51%. Without attending the trial or talking to the jurors afterwards, it’s hard to gauge how potent his case was aside from the holster and the gun failing to cycle described in the complaint, but I would feel warm under the collar if I was Sig’s insurance carrier.
Sig will start motions for the court to set aside the verdict or to order a new trial next. After that, an appeal could come down the pipeline. But, we shall see how much they puff out their chest and keep saying “No one has proven it!”
If Sig really did fix the problem they can’t say so or they’d be admitting there was a design flaw. Tough situation.
IF there was, and that’s a big if, the right and legal thing to do would be to recall the defective products, not really a tough situation other than for the bottom line.
Well..... Remember the recall where there was a voluntary option to send your P320 FCU in for an update? Yeah... Pepper ridge farm remembers and guaranteed that came up in discovery. Since it revolves around the design itself.
They did admit a design flaw , the Military sent back, they fixed and sold the sent back fixed guns to the civilian market to get the money back they lost ..Sold to the military for $207 then sent back with problems , same guns were fixed and then sold for $6-700 to dumb ass civilians ....
They should just be transparent with their customers
@@Synapse064 Exactly this. Sick of Sig apologists.
Doesn't seem like the 320 was a well engineered pistol. It was originally a hammer fired design (P250) that nobody liked and was morphed into a striker gun. p365 was designed from the ground up to be what it is. The article claims lack of a trigger safety is a dangerous/defective feature but the p365 doesn't have one and I bet you more folks carry some form of 365 versus the p320. Where are all the p365 lawsuits? something isn't right here.
I did find that weird. "Ooh this doesn't have a dingus safety, therefore it's dangerous." That's it?
Fully expected something more to be going on here. I.e., and these are just examples, but... sheet metal of the FCU warping and not holding trigger group mechanisms like it should. Firing pin/drop safety not working as intended. The gun's susceptibility for OOBD, the list goes on. But it's just the lack of a trigger blade safety that was the issue? I've just read the article and am wondering if I'm missing something?
funny because the main thing I don't like about the P320 is the subpar trigger feel 🤣🤣🤣
@kevinallies1014 umm no you are wrong sir. They go off in kydex duty holsters as well. If you look at the design you will quickly realize the design flaws. The 320 is a bad design and has so much wrong with this. The 320 can also detonate before it goes fully back into battery which is also crazy dangerous.
Seen a bunch of photos of cracked frames too. X Five Legions and M17/M18s. Totally anecdotal but never seen a cracked frame or exploded p365.
@@lon242I don’t know anything about this case but convincing non-technical people that a design is bad because some slick lawyer says it is does not seem like much of a stretch to me. There’s a reason that they don’t select technical people for juries, they don’t want the questioning mind asking too many questions.
As an engineer with both manufacturing and design experience, the P320 has never inspired confidence. Its internal safety devices are suspect in both metallurgy and function. I believe that there is a failure mode that, while rare and hard to reproduce, has dire consequences for the carrier of the pistol that cannot simply be prevented by following safe gun handling doctrine.
When all of this started coming out, I decided that a fully energized striker is a bad idea, and I switched to Glock. You are relying on the internal safety mechanisms working as intended 100% of the time. These mechanisms can fail to function for any number of reasons, and I believe this is why *some* of the P320s are going off. Some are just gross negligent cops just trying to save face.
“Quietly fixed it” is so funny
Had a 320 when they first came out, sold it & NEVER looked back!
@kevinallies1014 And you are?
@kevinallies1014 Butt Hurt Sip People! Most overrated gun out there... see ya!
@kevinallies1014 However, based on the number of likes, he is at least seven times more relevant than either of us.
@@gleamtarrest6310i sold my wife was mad I lost money then I showed her the videos 😂
@kevinallies1014he is actually. It’s his comment. What are you even saying?
A friend of mine had his go off in his holster and hit his knife, bullet skipped off the knife and left a big bruise. If you search "Gunghis P320" you will find his video called "my p320 tried to shoot me". I personally know the guy so its kind of close to home. 100% Sig fixed whatever the problem was. But if there was any internal communications about this, they would have been subpoenaed/included in Discovery during the trial. I have not read the case of anything like that, though.
I saw that
So even in that video you can see his belly rolls going over the holster and he's wearing a loose shirt, used to have a 320 x-carry so I followed most the incidents, it's very clear for that case he's chubby and that caused material to be pushed over into the holster area plus his went off while he was running against the clock so clearly he was rushing too much combined with one too many donuts
@@wompy-ru and you have to be this tall (see picture of hand being held at 4') to shoot a Sig.
@Pappy7064 how tall to get shot indirectly by it though?
That guy must have a lot of friends; I keep hearing this story
I never thought the "lighter" trigger bow would solve the problem. When I saw someone hit the back of the slide with a rubber mallet, while holding the gun horizontal, and the gun would detonate the primer in an empty case, to me, it seemed like it had to be more. The sear failed at that point and the firing pin block also couldn't have been functioning correctly. It was a crap gun when it was called the 250 and it's still a crap gun after they threw a striker in it. Heck, it seems like it's actually a worse gun now.
The sear is not strongly enough held in place. Maybe they have fixed it. Rather than adapt a hammer fired gun to striker in a hurry to win the contract they should have started with a clean striker design.
I think it’s funny how Serpa holsters, which have caused very few injuries though what everyone knows is improper use (granted, caused by a design that lends itself to improper use) are shunned in many areas of the firearms world, and yet Sig’s P320 design is defended so vehemently by its supporters, even though it has injured far more people and MAY be through an actual fault of the gun. It’s such a double standard when a brand is deemed too sacred for criticism.
I just took a firearms handling class.
They had many rules, but there were 3 that I remember now.
No Sig P320 allowed
No Taurus GX4 allowed.
No Serpa holsters allowed.
The 320 is a fully cocked striker with no inertial safety built into the trigger. And frankly the way they designed their "striker block" doesn't exactly inspire confidence, nore does the very small amount of sear engagement on the striker itself. Between the multiple instances of failed drop tests, "soft recalls", and various lawsuits they have had (many of which settled out of court to avoid exactly what just happened) this is a weapon that was *at best* designed poorly. People will say "but the m&p is a fully cocked striker!" And that's true. But it also has an inertial safety in the trigger, and frankly when is the last time you heard anything about an M&P having shake awake on the weapon itself?
The idea of a fully-cocked striker without redundant safeties is wild. That's what always made me cringe about the 320. People say its fixed now, but if its still fully-cocked at rest then its not fixed IMO. There's a reason why 1911's have two external safeties. There's a price to pay for that crisp trigger, and Sig didn't want to pay it, so the result is an unsafe pistol.
@@coffeeandlifting I remember the amount of flack the Hudson got for not having a manual safety with such a short trigger, but even that gun had an inertial safety in the trigger.
What worried me about my P320 was it had a short throw trigger and was at full cock in battery with no manual safety.
On top of that, any wiggle between the slide and the frame is potentially wiggling the sear faces against each other. The striker in in the slide, the trigger sear is in the frame.
If only there was a pistol with all its trigger and hammer components in the frame, immune to discharge from slide slop. If such a pistol existed, I think I'd party like it's 1911. ;-)
I like my 365, but won’t buy a 320. They should come out and admit what the problem was.
I’d never buy any modern sig handgun or rifle im at a large retailer and I really despise the company and products I think they are junk had so many come back with issues, and Sig uses its customers as QC team.
They almost can't. There would be way too many people coming for them with liability lawsuits and rightfully so.
If Sig actually admitted the issue/problem they would on the hook for fixing millions of P320 FCUs out in the wild. They don't want to do that.
@@WildManActual They did admit it to the military --- the fixed guns were then sold on the civilian market for 6-700 for a 4-500 dollar mark up to get the money they lost back..
The voluntary recall for canik caused me to never even consider them again, I don't trust sig now, smith and Wesson revolvers seem to be trash now, Taurus is like 10% garbage ( maybe yours is the 90%, maybe not)
And now there’s video evidence of a cop’s Sig going off in the holster while he was bending over in Montville, CT. I wonder if that was mentioned in this case?
I'm keenly interested in this subject due to the fact that I use a P320 X5 as my primary competition pistol in USPSA. It is of recent manufacture (2023). I have holstered a cocked pistol hundreds of times without the striker dropping unintentionally. I am aware of the possible issue and ALWAYS kick my hip out when holstering and will continue to do so with any pistol when holstering.
My aerospace engineer Dad always warned me to steer clear of new model autos and I feel it's the same with newly designed anything. Look at the issues the Hudson and DD H9 have had. It takes time to refine them and it's unfortunate that early adopters end up as beta testers because the companies want to see a ROI sooner rather than later. If you don't wish to roll the dice, don't be an early adopter.
At least now we have the internet and are able to educate ourselves. In the old days, you'd just hear anecdotes and were never really able to corroborate the rumors.
For myself, I feel like the number of incidents with respect to the number of P320s out in the market make the probability of me, personally, having the issue to be extremely low but it still possibly exists and is worth being mindful of. Every one of these incidents involves a holster and that instructs me on when I need to exercise caution.
Every consumer must consider their own risk tolerance. For some, they've abandoned the platform and that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. There's plenty of other options out there. For me the X5 has the right mix of features to make it a compelling choice despite the risks. Plenty of people have driven Pintos and Telsas that did not meet their demise in a conflagration although is was possible that they could have.
They did "fix it" so to speak. A few people brought this up one was an armorer or gun smith. I need to see if i can find the exact post, the post showed p320 slides from different years that had multiple internal design changes that wasn't publicly announced. So multiple changes were made to the guns throughout the years relating to how the internals function. A few companies also have pictures on their websites for when you get a non optic ready slide to be milled theres some interations they wont touch.
I’m issued one and I use to be paranoid that I was carrying a drag grenade on my hip. Now I don’t care. But I sometimes think about it
So you are less paranoid about it, which is still paranoid.
@@Rubeless Remember, it's only paranoia until it gets you.
I mean after it happened on video I don’t know how SIG could still argue anything but accept defeat.
Should've been tipped off after seeing the P365 have a different internal design, never had a problem with my 320 but could never trust it fully, still carried it normally but glad I got rid of it, was already hard enough selling but now....
According to the verdict form the gun was without a tabbed trigger and didn't include a warning. This is apparently enough.
Right? What bullshit.
..."Laughs in Glock"
Just Google “Glock Leg”. A lot of us are old enough to remember this same crap happening when Glocks got mass adopted.
Laughs in new generation Taurus. Best gun that I didn't pay for huge marketing.
@@rcstl8815laughs at a poor for being to poor for Glock
@@joebr249 17, 19, 43, 43x, 26, tp9, mini 14, 30, many others laughs at uninformed dumbsh!t.
@@rcstl8815yeah they're not as good as glock but ive owned some that were aight
I was going to build up a 320(M18) but the constant stream of Office pops turned me off. Sold it and picked up a springfield prodigy as a project gun.
What’s that from? Like how females want males with bad credit, poor financial management skills, low iq…etc because they want to fix them; natural motherhood
😂
That’s definitely a project
Hopefully this will force sig to address these issues they have been having with the p320 but I won't hold my breath
SIG shouldnt change a thing.
I tried to hire Mas ayoob once for trial about 10 years ago for an accidental discharge case. When he heard the gun was in a hand he didnt want it.
Jackie Childs would have been my choice.
Bought a recent manufactured p320 this year, and I love how it shoots, but the lack of blade safety does put me off a bit. I won't consider carrying it until there is a blade safety, but I think Sig should simply just add a grip or blade safety stock, and or lean in a little more into the P226/P229/ SP2022 series. I'd love a revamp of the 2022.
Have you ever noticed that the P320 never fires when it’s in a safe? in a range bag?
I think most people don't have a round in pipe when they are keeping their gun in a bag.
If sig did change something due to the original design. They could go along way to out this to rest by stating it, and supplying a new fcu.
My question is why is it happening to people having Safariland holsters only? Should we get rid of our sig p320 guns?
Popularity and its issued
It’s been known that the model 320 goes off without touching or mishandling the weapon.
Your Staccato is a safer pistol than a Sig 320!
I carry my staccato, awesome gun, also carried Glocks for many years.
I had a motorcycle crash with a P320, and it went flying out of my holster. It didn't fire. I have thousands of rounds through it, and it never fired by itself. I trust it at this point.
So how does the hammer get drawn back ?
Hold on wait! The company that routinely uses their customers to beta most of their products? They released an item that wasn't safe? Nah! Impossible!
I've never had to worry about any of my Glocks doing this.
What is glock leg? 🤣
Screw sig, they lied about all this and I base that on the sheer number of complaints and all the testimonies of people showing how it happens. Plus their new stuff seems to be junk or copies of another product.
Is it true that all of these cases involved someone handling the gun in and around a holster?
Who made a short video with the SIG P320 had tape on the upper and lower and showed how the gun can fire out of battery?
No video to prove the 320 can fire out of battery is necessary. I remember SIG ITSELF was advertising this ability as a feature when the 320 was released.
As someone that loves the p226 and my MCX Virtus, I can’t believe sig hasn’t been sued into the ground. I would give anything to know what their legal team allocation is. Atleast 50% of their net. A lot of companies have gone out of business for a lot less. Government contracts have to be keeping them alive.
Update- The Michigan State Police just went to the Sig 320 recently with the Alien Gear holster as recommended by Sig. They had a Trooper walking through the squad room at the Cadillac Post with a Gatorade in one hand and a laptop in the other and the gun went off striking a Trooper in the foot. SOOOOO it's not a holster problem, it's a gun problem!! I know some higher-ups in MSP who state that this incident is on body cam but they have it locked down so no one can see it. I was also told that they signed Non-Disclosures as well. I guess we just have to wait until someone dies for Sig to do the right thing.
It’s crazy that all of these miss fire issues that people haven’t checked the serial number of the fire control unit that’s posted on the Sigg website
It's weird thst when I bought my xdm and shadow2 compact I didn't have to check serial nimbers. Is that even a thing?
I love my P320 X5 Legion. I have used it in USPSA competition regularly for the past 3 years and never had a misfiring problem.
I'm pretty sure that was true of every 320 that has had this issue.😂 "It has never gone off.....until it did!"
Tens of thousands of rounds thru my 320 x5 , not to mention X5 is one of the most popular guns for CO , at least in my area, without any issues.
We will never know what the actual truth is , people screw with actions and never willing to admit it amd lawyers are excellent insisting facts
The P320 is a pistol for the classes not the masses.
I thought you had a contract with some Canadians that rolled with SIGs? Where those P320 and did they have tabbed triggers? I may be confused tho, it is not uncommon in my age.
Wonder if Sig will be forced to do a product recall? Only makes sense if they've been found guilty for having a defective/dangerous product.
There is a number based on what’s less, a recall or payouts to lawsuits. Auto manufacturers are notorious for this.
Tombs: “should’ve bought the Glock.”
Glock isn't the answer
I bought my p320x5 legion manf date 6/2021. I really didn't use it much until I started doing uspsa matches in 2023 and 2024 have shot couple thousand rounds through it no issues, I have been concerned about this issue, hopefully mine got fixed so far so good .
Same here. I bough mine new, and it was manufactured in 9/2019. I believe both of ours are 'post problem' from Sig. I.e., they do not have that flaw. I am definitely interested in confirming this though.
@@natei3518 Someone should compare the internals of an older P320 with one that was manufactured after 2019. It would be simple enough to figure out what changed. Shape of the sear? Overall Tolerances?
There are videos of that.
Never had a problem with any p320 I own
The sig p320 is a striker fired pistol with a light trigger pull and no trigger safety. The pros of this gun are what make it dangerous. With this type of gun you have to be extra careful not to pull the trigger when placing it in the holster or taking it out. The problem is some people have more confidence than competence and they wind up shooting themselves.
I don’t like Sig and Siggers, I’ve seen what I’ve seen and I’ll die on this hill.
Glock supremacy
@@seann2769 recently becom disillusioned with my Glock 17. Gun feels great but trigger sucks. Had two bad experiences with it shooting USPSA Production. Looking to move to Beretta 92X now
Wow. Lots of emotion right there. You ok?
i dont like glock and glockers their so boring. see no one gives a fuck...
@@vahngeo2260found the Sigger
If Sig is appealing based on lack evidence they’re in for a tough time. The appellate court is not going to reweigh the trial testimony and evidence.
After carrying a P320 at work and having a personal one, shooting thousands of rounds a year through both, they miraculously only fire when the trigger is pulled.
Say that to the multiple officers that are on YT and on multiple articles because their 320s fired by themselves. Multiple officers. Not just one.
Also, they recalled the Sig Cross for having trigger problems. If they did that, is it still hard for you to believe that they are having trigger issues elsewhere? I feel like it just makes sense that the trend of bad triggers is a thing at Sig.
I’m glad you haven’t experienced it and I’m sure it’s not every pistol. But, it’s a problem they gotta look into.
Stay safe man.
Ditto. Guns don't go off by themselves.
"it hasn't happened to me therefor it's never happened" is very scientific reasoning
@@makhnobux right? Haha
Just so I understand, I gun went off in the holster by itself? Coincidently, at the exact same time it was being un-holstered. This is a mechanical object. If it truly is a design flaw, it should be very easy to reproduce the discharge. Betcha they didn't and/or couldn't reproduce the discharge.
Can you recreate a negligent discharge while it's still completely inside a kydex holster? If that's what it is it should be easy to reproduce with literally any striker fired gun, but I don't see how it's possible to pull the trigger when the force being applied is the opposite direction of a trigger pull, and it hasn't even moved enough to clear the holster yet.
On the other hand it is completely untrue that mechanical failures due to faulty design are always easily reproduced. Intermittent issues are common in all types of machines.
Like my Sig p320’s have the m18, combat and AXG 320, won’t carry any of them. They basically sit in a safe unloaded.
No proper firing pin block. No trigger bow safety. Selling to the lowest common denominator(cops and military). Honestly, Sig are geniuses.
Is there really no firing pin block, or is it just poorly designed?
@kevinallies1014 there is a firing pin block system but it is an idiotic design that used weak stamped metal parts when the P320 first came out. SIG replaced the cheap stamped parts after the drop test fails started happening. It is over complicated and poorly designed.
Yo Sparky, it doesnt have a trigger bow safety because it doesnt have a trigger bow. Its not a 1911.
@@jschwenz8153Overly complicated for you maybe.
sounds nutty to me.... if it Wasn't a sig that is😂
I did quite a bit of training at Sig. saw a lot of Sigs malfunction during the courses. I’ll keep my Glocks.
Sig 365 it wont fire on its own but it will Rust. Check your slides, a batch of 365s have this issue. I know somebody who works for Sig & they told me it was a finishing issue at the plant.
There's a difference between mechanically safe and idiotproof
denial is for the weak
Strange it doesnt happen with other handguns with no external safety. Very weird
It did happen in the late 80s when Glocks were being issued. It was not Glocks fault. Cops are generally clueless
Ever since the bogus voluntary recall, SIG has been making excuses about the P320.
320 drop test when
Good enough for government work!
This is a repeated statement that makes no sense. We also have the best of weapons
The military version has an external manual safety.
Why the SIG hate ? The P365 is a great gun. Hell you dont need all 10 toes anyway.
It's great. That rust inside after EDC for 6 months is just for the looks. It gives character
@@gansior4744 "Patina"
10 toes is over-rated.
@@gansior4744 That's funny. I carried one IWB for 2 years, working without air conditioning in south Texas, and while the slide finish came off the left rear corner, there's not a bit of rust anywhere in or on my P365.
These are days when - just at work - I'd be drinking a gallon of water every day.
@@immikeurnot Something not talked about terribly often is that material is occasionally sourced from different places. Even if it's nominally meant to be the same type of steel, for example, sometimes the composition will be of inferior quality. Given the recent supply chain issues, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I also wouldn't be surprised, given Sig's track record of QA, if the finish on the internal parts was simply poor on some batches, or if after the rust issues were discovered, Sig started to use a different steel on the internal components.
This is why I don't own Sigs. I'm okay with Glocks lower capacities because I get the peace of mind knowing that my gun won't discharge a round whenever it feels like it.
Lower capacity?
this is why sig firearms cost 5x the price.
since its the first award in a court room, id say sigs cost big bucks because sig execs like to be paid large salaries.
@@leftyo9589awww....poor jealous commie...
@@leftyo9589 Or to a really good legal team that quietly shuts people up with a lot of money if they think they are going to lose (which would be a failure in this case). And to a customer service team that is responsible for shipping all the guns back and forth that their machining is bad on.
Once upon a time in North Dakota…
2.3 Mil for a faulty gun and a shooting....
1.3 BILLION if you're Alex Jones and simply TALK ABOUT A SHOOTING.....
The country is broken
all you have to do is look at the shell of a person sitting in the whitehouse to know that.
Except Alex Jones lied, and siced his rabid fans on the victims and caused them to have to move, MULTIPLE TIMES, due to harassment and death threats. One father even offed himself because of it. Alex Jones is a piece of shit who deserves to lose everything for being a lying POS. The two are not the same.
Ridiculous or not this is one reason I stick only with DA/SA or similar hammer mechanisms. Do not like striker fired guns.
Military chose Sig not because it was "Modular" because it was cheaper then Glock. Simple as that. Military chose cost over safety when it came to arming our Soldiers. Wild.
Even if they have fixed it, I'm definitely not going to appendix carry and P320 model PERIOD.
The P250 never had these problems.
True, but all these youngins raised on strikers cant seem to muster the finger strength to shoot one.
Geezus,
ALWAYS in the holster..........
Crazy that they recalled the Sig Cross Bolt Gun for trigger issues and now every Sig fanboy is saying the P320 doesn’t fire on its own. Isn’t it suspicious that they recall a gun for trigger issues and deny it when multiple people including LEO are saying the gun just goes off on its own? Some things are in plain sight and obvious. It’s not even a question that they are using their military contract as leverage to raise prices on their average firearms and using the customers as quality control and as test and evaluation. What a rip off. I’ve never owned or will own an sig product.
sig's dismissive handling of the complaints is more disqualifying for me than the mechanical issues. they basically called impacted users liars and idiots the entire way down. i wouldn't give my business to a company that saw me that way, whether my gun blew up or not.
The snowball effect has begun!
They made a shitty product that went off on its own and shot someone how is that going to start a snowball effect
@krod8483 do you know what snowball effect means? I'm saying the losses in court are going to start piling up since they lost for the first time!
@kevinallies1014 dude they have been so many people showing how badly these guns have been doing it isn't just going off due to carelessness. These guns are poorly designed and have QC issues and even I've seen this in person. The gun is just fucking bad.
@@kyrozudesoya1829 Their users (including me) are beta testers for bad designs and QC testers for bad CNC processes. Their customer service pretty quickly just listens to your complaint, writes it down and sends you a mailing label. I've had to send in 4 Sig firearms that didn't work correctly from the factory or broke shortly after first firing. I do love my P22xs though. I don't own an original P210, but would like to.
The military is hiding the issue due to how they lost the legal battle with beretta and are in bed with Sig. I don’t own one, and only heard from the tactical response guys that one went off during the drop drill. Don’t know, don’t care.
"Due to design of the weapon, including that it lacked a trigger safety"
In one of the other big cases, this was also an argument... it's almost like the trigger was pulled and they're after money 😮
From what I understand, none of these cases could reproduce the issue with the pistol.
So, you think it's dumb to carry what's essential a SAO pistol without manual safety? Agreed.
But, that's user choice and Sig shouldn't be held liable for the user's stupidity.
I own (and will be selling) a Sig p320 m18. I REALLY wanted to love this firearm. It fits my hand nicely, big ole beaver tail, and nice coyote color.
Reality is, it's an inaccurate in-betweener firearm....too big to carry (iwb 3 o'clock) and too small for a favorite range gun. Hope it helps some resell value. We'll see.
Glad I sold mines
I know people that still vouch for them, but I would personally never carry one. It would always have the creeping thought of an nd in the back of my mind.
I would be super interested in Bens take on Sig Mechanics video on the p320's safety mechanisms. I was super anti Sig 320 for awhile until I watched his striker safety mechanism. Not sure how the gun could go off without a trigger pull after watching it without there being some sort of insane defect in two areas of the gun.
Sig mechanics video: ruclips.net/video/R0MpcFEXWhc/видео.html
I thought it would be about some case which one of their guns was used against others, this is completely justified and is the right outcome IMO. Your firearm that was designed and made in the 21st century should not being going off unless you make it fire, obviously in typical heavy use and maintenance.
SigP = Sometimes it goes Pop!
I will not buy one due to them going off on their own
What else is there to say than the obvious? The 320 is a piece of utter junk.
The P320 is a gimmick. The M17/18 is a travesty.
P220/226/229 are awesome.
100%
Be careful folks...news flash! Moving a trigger to the rear may indeed cause a firearm to discharge. Who woulda thunk it?!?!
They didn't "win" all those cases. Many were settled put of court. In other words, SIG paid to keep it from going to trial.
Amen
The gun went off when something hit the bang switch. It didn’t go off by itself.
Does anyone think it’s just a coincidence that Sig is this tied up in court cases? Glocks have been around for how long now? How many cases are they fielding if this is all operator error? Are idiots uniquely drawn to the older 320? Or is/was there a design flaw? I think this is the risk of “quiet fixes” and “rolling changes” instead of wholesale recalls. It’ll eventually bite you in the ass.
So, I'm not defending Sig, guess he had an original P320 pre-volunteer program?
All that is needed to win a ridiculous lawsuit is a stupid jury. No shortage of those these days.
SIG needs to be sued WAY more than this….
In 1997 I shot USPSA regularly with a guy who used a Sig in limited division, as limited and open were all that existed. He used carry gear, and was fairly competitive despite his equipment choice. This was the early days of IDPA, and there were few opportunities to shoot that discipline. He probably shot 40-50 matches a year.
His 9mm Sig frame cracked about a year after purchase, so he sent it back to the factory, they replaced it. 6 months later his .40 Sig cracked, sent in, replaced. 6 months later (less than a year after frame replacement) the 9mm cracked again. Factory asked how many rounds he had shot through this pistol. He told them he estimated 5-6 thousand. They had a fit, told him he had exceeded the service life of the pistol, refused to repair it, and told him the crack was superficial. He said "fine, just return it to me, and I will show it to everyone at every match I attend". When returned, it had another frame. He traded all of his Sigs for 1911s.
Point being, Sig has a long running habit of denial when it comes to their quality issues.
Bullshit
Damn that smells
@@Rubeless Yeah, like bullshit.
My hip waiters are on dude. Always with the comments
@@Rubeless Something about bullshit sets me off.
Turns out a Taurus IS just as good as a Sig 😏
The first P320's had cheaper stamped steel parts used in the firing block mechanism which is located on the striker assembly itself. After people discovered the P320 would go off when dropped the firing pin block parts were redesigned and use cast and machined parts. The safety system is over complicated and silly compaired to Glock, Beretta, ect. If they had just had the P320 with a bladed trigger safety none of this would of happened.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
@@vahngeo2260 oh ok... Because SIG totally never had that striker housing and firing pin block redesigned. They totally didn't change out what look to be MIM casting firing pin blocks( I forgot they weren't stamped parts) to steel ones and madebthe firing pin block captive at its hing point so it can't become dislodged. Nope they never did any of those changes lol!
@@jschwenz8153 Those "changes" were there from the git go pal.
Do a recall and admit there is a problem or fix it quietly and deny it for eternity? Hummmm. It’s Quite clear the road they chose.
Fudd Busters has a great video on why the P320 design is hot garbage
I love P320s but i dont own one. This makes me think i shouldnt buy one. I also understand most ppl are dumb, so...😂
You are proving it.
@@Rubeless How so? I'm only saying I'm conflicted about buying one. But realize most ppl are dumb so maybe it's OK to buy one.
@HWG-wm8ld Stop using YT to vent brother 🤣 you're always so negative.
People use to have shame being obese or ignorant, now it’s celebrated.
I’ll just stick to my p226. I’m more of a double-action kinda guy anyway