The consequences from the NBME are rather generous. In the extremely competitive environment of medical school, an inflated board score that was the result of utilizing a resource that was not widely obtainable is cheating. I understand that this could apply to the ability to afford other resources like private tutoring.
Think about it 🧐 in high school and college a lot of times you are taught basic stuff that you feel that is not necessary to learn. But in medical school most of the stuff you are taught or relative to the direction you're going to be working in.. however most people people learn from relevant work experience than from a textbook. That they're most likely not going to remember anyway if it was left or right was the answer. That's why in today's society it is much more better to have experienced than it is to have textbook knowledge anybody can go get a degree put it on the wall and consider themselves a nurse or a doctor but it's the experience that make them a stronger candidate from what they have done in the workplace So therefore a lot of people cheated to obtain that chance to get that relevant work experience in a mentor to guide them through their clinicals. Plus the school load with the workload and the tuition payment if they have to is overwhelming especially when you're a parent or a single parent
I think this conversation is interesting in the context of the roughly 2 years of COVID when classes were online. In undergrad, it's an open secret that most students used outside resources or their notes on exams since they were online. For me, professors took two routes. 1) They acknowledged that they couldn't stop people from using notes, so they signed off on the idea and 'allowed it' but largely limited the amount of time on each question (45-60 seconds per) to disallow spending a lot of time looking up questions. 2) Professor made us have a camera on zoom pointed at us and our monitor that we were taking the test on. I'd be interested to see people's GPAs from 2019-2021 and see if they tended to be higher than the following 2-3 years. I personally feel a bit of imposter syndrome from those two years. Classes were undoubtably easier, and I had some classes that were simply made completely open note. Have to keep in mind that my last two years were when I took the actual pre-reqs and they were all in person, and I did just as well, haha
Agree with everything but the adderall thing. The idea that it is not cheating if you get prescribed adderall and score better but if it is not prescribed you cheated?!
Let's say we have three cases: a) person with ADHD + Adderall = baseline focus; b) a typical person + NO Adderall = baseline focus. c) a typical person + Adderall = higher than baseline focus. If a person needs medication to achieve the baseline, I wouldn't say that's cheating. They literally have a mental disorder. If they can exceed that baseline, then it might just be due to their dedication. ADHD affects all areas of life, not just learning. I understand where you are coming from though, and can see how one can believe this is unfair. For me, as long as the person has an actual mental disorder necessitating Adderall to live their life, then let them use it.
It’s not that old, the pencil and paper concept is still happening! My courses have “clicker” questions that can be either on an app during class or done on paper to prepare students for taking quizzes/exams on paper and pencil.
the only thing that I don't agree with in this video is the source of imposter syndrome that you mentioned.... when I found out that I got accepted, the amount of excitement that I felt was incredible, but it was short lived. the next day I woke up with some imposter syndrome... that point in my life ive been dreaming about since I was 15 years old (im 30 now). I didn't always have a good college gpa but as some maturity set in I realized it was time to lock in... I was able to bring my gpa from a 1.9 to a 4.0 prior to applying. through the use of Honors classes I was able to achieve this feat... in that moment of my short lived impostor syndrome I just started thinking about all the students I beat out, amazing students at that ... and that kind of psyched me out a bit you know.. not because I didn't work hard enough to get here its just the thought of the long journey to finally be here and the idea of "wow I really did it, I could have ..." you know
I worry that the extend anti-medication sentiments actually leave room for the stigmatization of the groups of people who do do really on medications, even if they are taking medications as prescribed.
I do believe that this was cheating plain and simple. But on the other hand I don't Think the NBME are being generous with anything. They clearly have a very flawed system of testing that allowed for something like this to happen. And an answer like if we need to change it it will cost you much more to take the exam is simply not acceptable for the supposed best training programs in the entire world. Plus any doctor who practiced medicine can argue that more than half of the material we study before graduating is not really relevant in real world practice so the idea of i want a doctor to treat me who scored 270 or something on usmles (especially step 1) does not hold well. My opinion is they need to deeply reassess their testing methods and this system needs a much needed update or this kind of things will happen in different forms and from different areas around the world time and time again.
I appreciate this so much! I am starting CRNA school soon, and currently hearing a lot of people talking about taking stims. This helped me refocus and reminded me that I can do it without! gracias man
I never cheated in med school but the whole fucking concept of 5 options for every question makes it look like cheating because recognition makes it so that a person doesn’t have to reason through test questions sometimes
I mean we do pay hundreds to thousands of dollars to take these exams. They are graded electronically and they are reusing repeated questions with any updates
At least shuffle the options, they dont even do that! 100% test maker incompetency, you can easily pick same topic and create and alt question on it! It seems hypocritical to say approx/similar Qbanks like Kaplan for mark boosting as fair but Previous Year Questions(PYQs) as something as cheating! PYQ also requires one to understand that topic, so does Kaplan Qbanks, its just that people get access to examiner's mindset so that they can minimize bad luck factor for topics asked! How is using PYQ to assess and study commonly asked topics cheating?
People are more likely to admit they are gay than that they took adderall for an exam. Just saying. Life has taught me that most people will cheat given the chance. The fact that cheating is rampant in inconsequential video games hammers home this point.
What if someone gives the exam in the first attempt & got failed....but does recall the questions and keep it to himself/herself and doesn't discuss with anyone else (as per contract)...later memorize those and in his/her second attempt....questions repeat and the candidate got the good (more than average) score based on recall...then is it also cheating? 😂😂 Stupid case itself....start making good and new questions rather than doing this shit.
That’s not an explanation. Even if you self recall YOUR entire exam, the likelihood of you encountering the same questions in a subsequent exam is very unlikely. On the other hand, if multiple people recall and share those exams together, the likelihood becomes higher. Hence why “sharing” questions is the part they contractually held you from doing. They didn’t say self recall is not allowed that’s stupid, they said sharing is not allowed and asked you to sign a contract saying you agree with that. Making new questions at a rate fast enough to keep up with all examiners in the world if they shared questions is near impossible. Hope that clarified things.
We had something similar happen at my school here in the southwest US. We have podiatry students and DO students taking pathology, micro and anatomy together and the pod students were caught multiple times using a document almost identical to the Savior document used by the Nepalese students. It's very discouraging to study hard and perform 2pts above the avg for a test
Yeah, because exams are directly related to competency... We absolutely need to know the complete krebs cycle down to the dot to practice general medicine on the daily! Holy shit
Share your stories!🫣 Have you heard about or witnessed cheating at your college or medical school?
Don’t understand how this is controversial. This is clearly cheating.
💯
The consequences from the NBME are rather generous. In the extremely competitive environment of medical school, an inflated board score that was the result of utilizing a resource that was not widely obtainable is cheating. I understand that this could apply to the ability to afford other resources like private tutoring.
@@brennengodeen3796 no it’s not the same. The Nepal test takers made written documents of remembered questions. There was physical evidence.
Think about it 🧐 in high school and college a lot of times you are taught basic stuff that you feel that is not necessary to learn. But in medical school most of the stuff you are taught or relative to the direction you're going to be working in.. however most people people learn from relevant work experience than from a textbook. That they're most likely not going to remember anyway if it was left or right was the answer. That's why in today's society it is much more better to have experienced than it is to have textbook knowledge anybody can go get a degree put it on the wall and consider themselves a nurse or a doctor but it's the experience that make them a stronger candidate from what they have done in the workplace
So therefore a lot of people cheated to obtain that chance to get that relevant work experience in a mentor to guide them through their clinicals. Plus the school load with the workload and the tuition payment if they have to is overwhelming especially when you're a parent or a single parent
For me its kinda creepy that educated people don't understand why it was a cheating thing.
We have highly educated and trained professionals who advocate for the fair and equal competition of trans men competing in women’s sports.
Apple watch on the bicep is crazy
🫠
Haha I was wondering what that was
The iCep
Feeling kinda gaslit. There is a lot of med school cheating that happens across the country lmfaooo
I think this conversation is interesting in the context of the roughly 2 years of COVID when classes were online. In undergrad, it's an open secret that most students used outside resources or their notes on exams since they were online. For me, professors took two routes. 1) They acknowledged that they couldn't stop people from using notes, so they signed off on the idea and 'allowed it' but largely limited the amount of time on each question (45-60 seconds per) to disallow spending a lot of time looking up questions. 2) Professor made us have a camera on zoom pointed at us and our monitor that we were taking the test on.
I'd be interested to see people's GPAs from 2019-2021 and see if they tended to be higher than the following 2-3 years.
I personally feel a bit of imposter syndrome from those two years. Classes were undoubtably easier, and I had some classes that were simply made completely open note. Have to keep in mind that my last two years were when I took the actual pre-reqs and they were all in person, and I did just as well, haha
Agree with everything but the adderall thing. The idea that it is not cheating if you get prescribed adderall and score better but if it is not prescribed you cheated?!
Let's say we have three cases:
a) person with ADHD + Adderall = baseline focus;
b) a typical person + NO Adderall = baseline focus.
c) a typical person + Adderall = higher than baseline focus.
If a person needs medication to achieve the baseline, I wouldn't say that's cheating. They literally have a mental disorder. If they can exceed that baseline, then it might just be due to their dedication. ADHD affects all areas of life, not just learning. I understand where you are coming from though, and can see how one can believe this is unfair. For me, as long as the person has an actual mental disorder necessitating Adderall to live their life, then let them use it.
It’s not that old, the pencil and paper concept is still happening! My courses have “clicker” questions that can be either on an app during class or done on paper to prepare students for taking quizzes/exams on paper and pencil.
the only thing that I don't agree with in this video is the source of imposter syndrome that you mentioned.... when I found out that I got accepted, the amount of excitement that I felt was incredible, but it was short lived. the next day I woke up with some imposter syndrome... that point in my life ive been dreaming about since I was 15 years old (im 30 now). I didn't always have a good college gpa but as some maturity set in I realized it was time to lock in... I was able to bring my gpa from a 1.9 to a 4.0 prior to applying. through the use of Honors classes I was able to achieve this feat... in that moment of my short lived impostor syndrome I just started thinking about all the students I beat out, amazing students at that ... and that kind of psyched me out a bit you know.. not because I didn't work hard enough to get here its just the thought of the long journey to finally be here and the idea of "wow I really did it, I could have ..." you know
Def not the only cause of imposter syndrome but I believe a contributor to the higher rates. Thanks for sharing your atory 👍🏼
I worry that the extend anti-medication sentiments actually leave room for the stigmatization of the groups of people who do do really on medications, even if they are taking medications as prescribed.
The education system in the US has reached to the “ideal” status but not all countries have similar conditions to do that.
pen and paper was funny dude 😂😂 kevin definitely felt that…
😩
we still take most our exams pen and paper haha. But a few exams switched to verbal exams
Will NBME investigate other countries?
I don't think it's just Nepal; definitely, there are cheaters in other countries.
I do believe that this was cheating plain and simple. But on the other hand I don't Think the NBME are being generous with anything. They clearly have a very flawed system of testing that allowed for something like this to happen. And an answer like if we need to change it it will cost you much more to take the exam is simply not acceptable for the supposed best training programs in the entire world. Plus any doctor who practiced medicine can argue that more than half of the material we study before graduating is not really relevant in real world practice so the idea of i want a doctor to treat me who scored 270 or something on usmles (especially step 1) does not hold well.
My opinion is they need to deeply reassess their testing methods and this system needs a much needed update or this kind of things will happen in different forms and from different areas around the world time and time again.
Recall is perfectly fine. All the consultants and fellows literally advise looking at recall. Lol.
I appreciate this so much! I am starting CRNA school soon, and currently hearing a lot of people talking about taking stims. This helped me refocus and reminded me that I can do it without! gracias man
Is there a video on why the apple watch is on his arm? just for heart rate? I don't see him wearing it in the Watch vs Oura video.
Explanation in a Apple Watch vs whoop video coming soon
I never cheated in med school but the whole fucking concept of 5 options for every question makes it look like cheating because recognition makes it so that a person doesn’t have to reason through test questions sometimes
I think yall kinda downplay how many students actually cheat even with proctors
I mean we do pay hundreds to thousands of dollars to take these exams. They are graded electronically and they are reusing repeated questions with any updates
At least shuffle the options, they dont even do that!
100% test maker incompetency, you can easily pick same topic and create and alt question on it!
It seems hypocritical to say approx/similar Qbanks like Kaplan for mark boosting as fair but Previous Year Questions(PYQs) as something as cheating!
PYQ also requires one to understand that topic, so does Kaplan Qbanks, its just that people get access to examiner's mindset so that they can minimize bad luck factor for topics asked!
How is using PYQ to assess and study commonly asked topics cheating?
What watch are you wearing in this vid? Looks good. Great video as usual.
People are more likely to admit they are gay than that they took adderall for an exam. Just saying.
Life has taught me that most people will cheat given the chance. The fact that cheating is rampant in inconsequential video games hammers home this point.
Just commenting for the algorithm 💚
Later on you guys are gonna realize that studying to make your patient better is a whole lot more satisfying than getting high grades
What if someone gives the exam in the first attempt & got failed....but does recall the questions and keep it to himself/herself and doesn't discuss with anyone else (as per contract)...later memorize those and in his/her second attempt....questions repeat and the candidate got the good (more than average) score based on recall...then is it also cheating? 😂😂
Stupid case itself....start making good and new questions rather than doing this shit.
That’s not an explanation. Even if you self recall YOUR entire exam, the likelihood of you encountering the same questions in a subsequent exam is very unlikely. On the other hand, if multiple people recall and share those exams together, the likelihood becomes higher. Hence why “sharing” questions is the part they contractually held you from doing. They didn’t say self recall is not allowed that’s stupid, they said sharing is not allowed and asked you to sign a contract saying you agree with that. Making new questions at a rate fast enough to keep up with all examiners in the world if they shared questions is near impossible. Hope that clarified things.
17:55 I think they mean Habitica, right?
We had something similar happen at my school here in the southwest US. We have podiatry students and DO students taking pathology, micro and anatomy together and the pod students were caught multiple times using a document almost identical to the Savior document used by the Nepalese students. It's very discouraging to study hard and perform 2pts above the avg for a test
Step 1 is garbage in any case … most people that pass aren’t able to retake the exam a year later … it’s not competency it’s memorization …
Ignorant
Site the sources that back up your claim
Very insightful, especially the bit on Imposter Syndrome. ☀
Yeah, because exams are directly related to competency... We absolutely need to know the complete krebs cycle down to the dot to practice general medicine on the daily! Holy shit
Its HABITICA 18:00
Come on Kevin you know what that student means by other unethical things
what's that
👇Like if you want to see Kevin's dancing videos
This info may be biased as these two may be part of the cheating scandal themselves as Nepalese 😂
The imposter syndrome thing is so eye opening… sometimes anything you use as a crutch plays a role in imposter syndrome
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They shouldn’t allow testing outside the US . We have enough US kids that want to be doctors.
R