I think it's a bit unfair to call the Roadliner the worst bus ever. Problems with body flexing were common to all the early 36 ft saloons, and were more attributable to the coachbuilders' failure to appreciate the stresses at play than to the chassis designers. The Roadliner, with the ability to tuck the engine neatly under the back seat, was a very advanced design for the day, but it was badly let down by the poor Cummins engine. By all accounts, the fundamental weakness of the engine was that Cummins had decided, as a cost-cutting measure, to adopt the same V-angle for their V6 and V8 engines, the result being that the V6 was inherently unbalanced and prone to vibration which was exacerbated by the cut-and-thrust of bus work with its constant cycle of acceleration and deceleration. The Perkins worked well enough in the Roadliner, though it was always a thirsty and noisy unit, and one can understand that Daimler customers, used to the economy and reliability of the Gardner, deserted in droves until the Fleetline became available in single-deck form.
Hello! Oh, I'm sure there are other buses just as bad or even worse, but I was just going by what was voted on by Classic Bus mag. Thanks for watching!!
I remember this bus from my childhood. I lived in Chesterfield and this type of bus in it's Corporation green livery was occasionally used as a substitute for the usual one on the route past my house. I always knew when the Daimler was in service as it emitted a very loud and distinctive throbbing roar from the exhaust as it accelerated away from the bus stop . It always fascinated me at the time why this particular make of bus was so noisy. Your video has helped me understand why.
It's arguable that Gardners did themselves no favours in the longer term by refusing to expand production. Long-stroke, slow-revving diesels worked well in the pre-motorway age, but it was becoming clear that more revs plus turbocharging was the way forward. That required a ground-up redesign, and Gardners didn't have the revenue to fund development. In the end, the LX engine died of commercial irrelevance, and it took the company with it.
@@bobwalsh172 Very good point, one use of the magnificent 6HLX is direct drive onto an alternator. When optimised for fixed load they are remarkably efficient engine, with the price of electricity being where it is a Gardner thumping away in the shed sounds to me to be a wonderful compromise. Don't tell Gretta Thurnburg she is a bit touch about this.
I remember seeing the Leyland chassis caining it down the M6 with no cab and the driver wrapped up warm wearing goggles, look fun but bloody dangerous. That was in the 80's I doubt if you can do this now without some snowflake snitching on you to the HSE.
Had a lot of experience with the coach version, as a driver with Black and White. The workshop foreman told me once that the Roadliners gave him "bad Dreams"!! I enjoyed driving them, and never had a breakdown with one in service. But I belive I was the exception.
Hi Jeffrey, bit of a ramble this post, I live in Darlington and passed my bus test with Darlington Corporation Transport in 1985 on a Daimler Decker and was then introduced to the Roadliner which was used for driver training, mainly to get used to having the wheels behind the driver, a few kerbs were killed in a two day rampage by myself !!! The corpy as we knew at, had the Fleetliners with Gardner engines. Sorry I cannot be more subjective about the Roadline, I was just happy it had a semi-automatic rather than having a crash gearbox. The drivers would tell me, on a morning, the Roadliners were all touching roofs as the air suspension had them leaning like the tower at Pisa !! As a side note, I also worked at Cummins before my bus test, I am still in the bus industry but as an Instructor.
Hello! Wow, great comment, lots of very interesting information here!! It's really interesting to read about your experience in the bus industry!!! Thank you very much for watching!!
I remember them in Belfast they shared the same attractive body with Alexander Y frames with 18 AEC SWIFT and 30 single deck Damiler Fleetline SRC . I loved those buses as a kid. I bought a photo off a Belfast Corporation Transport Roadliner in the Isle of man in June a Transport fan shop . Thank you for the Fleetline picture in BCH livery I have travelled in it a few times my favourite buses off all time. I had a big collection off Transport stuff but moved to a smaller flat and now mainly concentrate on Irish subjects. Your videos are fantastic.
Hello! I was looking for a Belfast Roadliner for the video, but oddly, could not find any, no matter how much I searched! I believe the bodies were fabricated locally. I really like the history of Belfast transport, especially the tram and trolleybus era, I have a number of books on the subject! Thanks very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Potters was the company a Belfast company it later was taken over by Alexander's for many years there was Alexander's Belfast now they are only in Scotland. We still have Wright's in Ballymena. If you can get the Colour Point books Buses in Ulster they will give you information sadly out off print. But MDS in England are selling the Belfast City bus book for £8 they are probably old stock. The Isle of man had a mobile church in an old Belfast Roadliner it's illustrated in the City Bus book. I miss named the Fleetline model they were SINGLE DECK REAR GARDER ore SRG . My bed time now it's 2325 in Ireland now. I will soon be catching my Metro Gemini bus to my morning job good night sir keep up the good work please.
Good looking BET bodyshell, went like stink, when not broken down, cornered like a 2cv, what's not to like . Our local company PMT had a large fleet, the prototype 6000 EH for the pmt batches that followed, was a fantastic sight as a school kid, the Newcastle bus station was behind my town centre primary school. KEH D, KVT E, initial batch was followed up by WEH G. I think a senior PMT official had been high up at Daimler previously, PMT probably got these at a good discount. PMT also had a few coach versions, the 1968 deliveries had very attractive Duple Commander bodywork. A few years ago an Ex Bournemouth example was locally based, had a ride on it during a local bus rally, sat at the back, where else🤣, it sounded like an AC Cobra Le Mans. The Marshall bodied examples were better detailed and finished than the Plaxton bodied ones at PMT . Roadliner, a glorious failure, when replaced after only about 6 years, Bristol RE and Nationals turned up.
Hi i'm viatron from Sheffield, but there is an experimental Daimler Fleetline CRV6 dual entrance/exit rear engined double deck bus demonstrator built for Walsall Corporation via being preserved at the Midland Bus Museum at Wythall near Birmingham & it was very unusual of having a Cummins V6 6-cylinder diesel engine & a Daimatic 4-speed semi-automatic gearbox with fluid flywheel. This was 33ft long via having a front entrance for boarding & a rear exit plus having two staircases & that is very strange back in the day of the mid-60s when Northern Counties of Wigan had constructed it as a one off at the time & also includes a C.C.T.V. built in. Thank you for your co-operation on this very strange blunder bus subject from David Viatron Esquire of crookes in Sheffield.
@@JeffreyOrnstein the CRC6-36 is 36ft long, most of them went to Johannesburg but one was built for Walsall, it is now fully restored, Wythall also have a fully restored Cummins powered Roadliner new to Wolverhampton.
The Roadliner only lasted about 10 years in Edmonton while ETS was also testing Japanese makes. Near their end they were used for short runs or split shifts. ETS save one for ETS promotion purposes was finally let go sometime in the early 2000’s.
The yellow Roadliner chassis cab was not a Daimler experimental vehicle but was a test vehicle by the Uk Government Transport and Road Research Laboratory (TRRL) A moped or motorcycle could be fixed at the side within the wheelbase and used to study the behaviour under test. The other blue painted single deck bus was either a guided bus or a battery powered bus or both. It has Road Research Laboratory on the destination screen as it was demonstrated at the Road research Laboratory, predecessor of TRRL at a symposium. I think the plastic sheets in front of the headlights are part of the guidance sensors. I saw both vehicles in my time working at RRL and TRRL.
MTT Adelaide took delivery of 35 Daimler Roadliners in 1969 with Cummins Diesel and Allison gearboxes. They were the first with the then new 2 door overwidth 8' 6" body. This was followed by 292 AEC Swifts with AH691 engines and ZF gearboxes built with the same body between 1970 and 1972. The chassis of these Swifts were shipped in CKD form from the UK and put together by MTT's workshops before being sent off to Denning to be bodied. Another 66 AEC Swifts were built with a slightly revised version of this body in 1978 done by Pressed Metal of Adelaide. These chassis came from the Leyland plant in Durban South Africa and had the bigger AH760 engine with ZF 2 speed automatic. Sta as it was called by then also took delivery of 307 Volvo B59s with this same body at the same time. The Daimlers, AECs and Volvos all looked the same to the untrained eye.
@@vincentburrowes9243 probably why they lasted so long in service. They took off quick as well. Dept of Interior Canberra, later ACTION had the shorter 33 foot AEC Swifts with AH505 diesels and Volvo B58 mid engine buses that carried the same body style as each other as well, the Smithfield series 70. They got way better service out of the Volvos and withdrew the Swifts much earlier as they proved troublesome throughout their short service careers in Canberra. Jeffrey, you have plenty of Australian capital cities to cover yet, then theirs the vehilces of family run suburban private operators plus country operators!
@@jamesfrench7299 Two of the ACT swifts caught fire - one was a total write off - the second fire was contained by a quick acting driver using a fire extinguisher. The cause of the fire was the failure of a fuel return line. Leyland / AEC implemented a campaign on the ACT and MTT Swifts to rectify the pipe / clamp design. My TAFE Diesel teacher told me that the Adelaide Swift's had a bad habit of breaking camshafts. The Adelaide B59 Volvo's completed 25 years' service, and one was sent to Sweden in the early days for testing at Volvo's Gothenburg factory.
Another excellent video Jeffry, keep them coming. There were 11 in Bournemouth 51-58 KRU51F and 59-61 NRU59G. I can remember seeing some of the first batch in Mallard Road depot and they must have just been delivered as they still had protection on the floor. Were they noisy, a kind of high pitch buzz which is very hard to describe but I can still hear then today! I often travelled on them late on a Saturday evening from Bear Cross to Charminster Road on the route 7. I always sat up the back to listen to the engine as it was like nothing I had ever heard before. Every bump was hit with a hard thud, the suspension was non existent. In neutral they shook like mad. I had a soft spot for them though and it is sad to hear of their terrible reputation. Living on Charminster Road, close to the Royal Blue depot, I often saw the Black and White Roadliners and they were very smart with their Plaxton bodywork. Also I was happy to see the ex Bournemouth Fleetline 40 still in existence although in Belfast colours.
Hello! Thanks for all of these memories of the Roadliners in Bournemouth! Wow, very interesting! I guess they didn't opt for the air suspension, LOL! Thanks for watching!!
In 1970-1971, I attended the University of Alberta in Edmonton. I lived on the north side of the river so I had to transfer downtown and then take another bus through the river valley to the U of A. The Cummins with the Allison automatic gear box was great for this as it had lots of power and could climb out of the river valley far better than the GMCs or the CCF buses. Edmonton transit also tried some Japanese buses too. Compared to the Canadian and US buses, the Daimler and the Japanese buses had a lot of vibration in the bodies.
Hello! Thanks for your memories of the Roadliner in Canada! Very interesting to read, and the comparison to the North American buses! Thank you very much for watching!!
In the late 60s I lived on the edge of West Riding Automobile territory in East Leeds. Although I had the pleasure (?) of the occasional trip on a Wulfrunian, their Roadliners (10 was it?) passed me by, as did their later Leyland Lynx buses. Imagine being a West Riding fitter, struggling to keep the Wulfrunians on the road, getting some Roadliners as well. Unlucky or what!
Hello! OH, that must have been a sight! First dealing with all those Wulfs, and then the Roadliners. What was it about West Riding that made them buy these?? LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
Jeffery, over there in the USA, has got very close to (my) home in several of his videos, but with this one he has arrived on our doorstep, with photos of two buses used here in Chesterfield! Indeed, the Chesterfield Roadliner, number 80, is pictured on the very spot where I often catch buses today! I also see in the comments that I am not the only Chesterfield-connected Jeffrey fan!
As a long standing bus enthusiast I remember the introduction of the Roadliner. You mention that the Cummins V6 was basically a marine engine which actually speaks volumes. A marine engine wouldn't have to go through the speed cycling of a service bus and maybe that's why the coach bodied versions fared better, as they don't do much stop/ start work. Black and White Motorways the Cheltenham based express coach operator, from memory kept theirs for a normal operational time and so maybe the Roadliner V6 was better suited for constant speed use.
The Cummins V6 engine range was a general purpose diesel engine used in many different applications. The engine was an extremely popular truck and bus engine in the USA for many years. The marine version of this engine was just one of may applications, which also included stationary power, industrial usage and electrical generators, just to name a handful.
Rough and noisy, refusing to start when hot \ cold, refusing to start in general sounds just like the Scania Omnilink CNG ( Compressed natural gas 👎) buses we have here in Sweden, aswell as constant breakdowns and engine replacements every 60 000 miles. All CNG buses are unreliable here in Sweden, but the Scanias and the Mercedes Citaro CNG buses are the worst. The Scanias use a Scania made 9 liter 5 cylinder CNG engine and the Citaros a Mercedes CNG engines. The older Diesel powered Scania buses had done 600 000 + miles on their original 9 liter inline 6 cylinder engines.
Panther Cubs and Panthers had severe problems with their semi automatic gearboxes, but for some reason, the same problems weren't as bad with the double decker versions. We in Manchester were 'treated' to Panther Cubs and Panthers by the mid to late 1960s, but after 10 years or less, they'd all been withdrawn by the mid 1970s. In contrast, the double door/double decker Mancunians, introduced in 1968, were still running well into the early 1980s, over a decade after their introduction.
Hello! Oh, I've received numerous comments on the Panther....thanks for the info, could be a good subject for a future video! Thanks for watching!!
3 месяца назад+1
You would think when they designed the chassis, they would have first determined that the available engines would fit. I was born and raised in Coventry, England. Coventry Corporation Transport bus fleet was heavy with Daimlers, no doubt because the Daimler factory was in Coventry.
In the 1950s and 1960s, due to the prevailing design of single decker buses, the engine was almost invariably mounted under the floor, near the back. In Manchester, UK, the local Corporation had Leyland Panther Cub and Panther single deckers, introduced between 1965 and 1967. Their mechanical unreliaibility, with a semi automatic gearbox, was legendary. After only around a decade of service, by the mid 1970s, barely a decade after introduction (in some cases less), they had all been withdrawn from service. For the next decade and more, single decker buses were a rarity in the Greater Manchester areas, indeed my local route was modified to allow double deckers to run on it.
Well it sure sounds like it as plaqed with a lot of problems or plenty of ideas that do not work out in real world working conditions, Learn something new in every video, lots of research for a bus line they probobly wanted to sweep under the rug and be forgotten about, great video, thanks for bringing us along
Sorry for commenting again (a month later), but I've just watched this video again and it makes me smile to see a bus pictured in the town where I live show just above Jeffrey's head!
Hi Jeffrey, many thanks for this video. Great content as always. As you mentioned, here in Belfast we had 18 Roadliners and they were awful! Flexing of the bodies caused all sorts of problems including a very roughrife for passengers!
Cummins is on my personal black list since I rode the DB Class 612 (Engine: QSK19-R). No other DMU engine makes such a terrible noise, and no other DMU engine has those short strange surprising lags in power output.
@@JeffreyOrnstein Yes it does, literally xD The weirdest thing on mentioned DMUs is the tilting mechanism. Everyone who knows the Pendolino tilting technology loves it. That's what came out after the the concept of the british APT was sold to Italy. That's the standard, and it was sold to orher companies as well, for instance the ICE-T uses it. But then there are also military companies that want to sell their products in a peaceful environment, so they thougth "What if we built the turret stabiliser from the Leopard2 tank under at train to make it tilt?" It will throw the railcar rudely from one side to the other, and always a little too late. In contrast the Pendolino tilting mechanism always tilts the car gently and smoothly right on time. If the tilting mechanism is switched off and the motor is idling downhill, then one can feel that DB Class 612 has really good suspension and is running on really good bogies. It's indeed a really good railcar, ruined by the noise of the engine and the rudeness of the tilting mechanism.
Interesting video and thanks for posting. You say that the Roadliner was the first low entrance bus but didn’t the RE come out at much the same time? How many times have we heard of something being rushed to market before it was ready or being ordered of the drawing board - with the inevitable results?
Hello! Good question about the first low-floor bus...there may be several that claim that distinction. And yes, rushing things to market just to rush it to market often ends badly. Thanks very much for watching!!
The Bristol RE was launched in the same year as the Roadliner but needed a step into the saloon just behind the cab. The Roadliner could have a bus body without any steps, and 6000EH, the bus prototype was so configured.
In its later years, stolid Albion Motors produced several lightweight bus models, including the Albion Nimbus, Albion Aberdonian, and Albion Viking. I don't know about the latter two, but the Nimbus was a pretty disastrous chassis.
I was only 6 or 7 when the last coach was produced so I can't say I ever travelled in one but they certainly looked to be at least the equal if not better than the rivals, just a shame that under the skin they were troublesome.
@@JeffreyOrnstein There used to be a rather large prison there (I don't know if that's still the case), not quite as bad as the 'Bar L', Barlinnie, the notorious prison in Glasgow. I always thought that nickname resembled some sort of ranch in a US TV Western series, which was no doubt intended. It was rumoured to be one of the most violent prisons in the whole of the UK.
The engine reminds me of that on a lot of American city buses. Totally unorthodox for British buses. Cummins were put off selling engines in Britain for years, but in the late 80s, the Leyland Lynx was produced with a Cummins 6 cylinder inline engine, and they have produced bus engines for the UK ever since.
I have to wonder if the body was a problem, I don't see a lot of ventilation for the rear engines here. VW Transporter-style slats if not ZAZ 968A/B style scoops might be called for (the scoops might've been hard to implement on a bus already at the legal or practical width limit though - the ZAZ is a very small car.)
@@JeffreyOrnsteinAs I said in my Main reply Wythall also has the ex Walsall CRC6-36, which is basically a Fleetline / Roadliner cross with the engine hidden under the second staircase. These are the only two Cummins-powered Daimlers still running in the UK.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the coach used for a school excursion I went on that had serious engine issues and could barely climb hills. We got overtaken by a bee.
That sounds as if your school trip was more likely to have been on board a Bedford, after a lifetime of driving buses, coaches and trucks, i feel qualified to say that Bedfords were so underpowered, they had dead flies on back window. It has to be remembered that in the 60,s we were transitioning from front engined coaches and buses, where the driver was intimately acquainted with the engine speed, and manual crash gearboxes that could not be rushed when gearchanging. To then arrive in a coach or bus with a rear engine, that you could hardly hear, and have a semi automatic gearchange, Drivers would snap the gearchange, because they could, and that action, meant that because the Cummins engine took a relatively long time to die down from its high engine speed, resulted in extra stress on the gearbox and frequent failures. I seem to remember that some of the Black and White versions had a two speed back axle fitted , giving them in effect an eight speed box. I do remember that with a sympathetic and empathic driver they gave a very smooth fast comfortable ride, and performed marvellously compared to Leyland Leopards, which with a five speed semi automatic box, needed a downhill slope to overcome the total lack of power, when trying to accelerate above 47 through to 53 mph, when the power came back in. In my view as a driver, the best British built coach chassis was the Bristol RELH, when fitted with the superb Gardner 6HLX engine. If you had one of those you were king of the road ,until the Volvo B58 and its successor the B10M arrived. The Scottish Bus Group replaced their Bristol REMH fleet with these, and when you saw their distinctive lights coming up behind you, you new that you were about to be passed and left standing by one of their Volvos. They should have had Catch me if you can! As a strapline on the rear end along with the Scottish Saltaire and the words Go Scottish. But I digress, thank you for the videos Geoffrey. Please do one on the Renault FR1, I drove literally several million kilometres in these , and I rate them very highly indeed, from the design, the performance, the economy, the comfort and the very idiosyncratic design, I commend them to you
Hello! I agree that the bodies looked very nice, with a good amount of variety to the Roadliners. Too bad the mechanicals weren't as good! Thanks for watching!!
Good post. Cummins always had a great reputation for smaller diesels, used in cars and vans. Nice mention of the semi-automatic gearbox system (epicyclic?) here, similar problems with the single decker Leyland Panther models of the same era. Also those with double doors tended to suffer cracks in the bodywork over a period of time. Nice to see the Leyland Panther Cub as the 3rd worst bus ever, I'm surprised the Leyland Panther didn't make the list. I'll be visiting Manchester Transport Museum next month, they still have 1965 Leyland Panther Cub on display, sadly no Panthers, many of which were later exported to Australia after their short service in the Manchester area.
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Maybe I'll do a video on the Panther Cub in the future, LOL. I also did a video on the Australian Panthers that operated in Brisbane. Thanks for watching!!
Well this pithy series, with its great period pics is highly informative and remarkably, allows me not to rant about the finer points of pronunciation of Coventry. Keep up the goid work.
There were many design innovations for buses in Britain. Where to put the engine seemed a priority in the late 50s and early 60s. rendering some designs as odd, such as the Wulfrunian. The Roadliner certainly looks nice, shame for the unreliabilty. Like the video.
It's interesting to know that Chrysler was connected to Cummins even back then. There's a saying that the worst part of a Cummins is the Dodge Ram pickup it comes with.
Chrysler has never had any association with Cummins other than buying engines from them to use in various trucks over the years. Cummins is, and always has been an independent manufacturer of engines and power systems which they have sold to dozens of companies for a huge range of applications.
Scammell Motors fitted Detroit 8V71 engines in many export Crusaders but would not fit them in general haulage trucks for the UK market as they considered them unsuitable. When Bedford started selling their larger TM series trucks they were initially fitted with the newer 6V92 and the larger 8V92 engines but later switched to Cummins 10 and 14 litre units.
I enjoyed this video, but was more than a little surprised to see three of my pictures used as illustrations. They were taken off my Flickr photostream without my knowledge or consent. Clearly they were screengrabs as I have disabled downloading. I do say on my Flickr site that I am happy to consider the matter if anyone wants to use my pictures for any reasonable purpose. Had I been asked I would have given my consent...but as you haven't I must ask you to remove them. The pictures are: East Midlands Atlantean, South Shields single deck Fleetline and similar West Midlands Fleetline. Note that I am trying to be nice about this. I could have contacted RUclips direct and asked them to take down the video for copyright infringement.
Perhaps if looking at the reliability of them and poor fuel economy, they were worse for operators buy for passengers, those bloody awful Little Nipper and Eager Beaver branded minivans used by SYPTE were the worst by a country mile. Thanks for another video though. Very interesting.
The Cummins V6 and V8 engines are the worst Engines ever. These engines were in the Dodge and Ford D1000 trucks and were always in the shop for burnt holes in the cylinder liners, causing piston hydraulicking lockups. Compared to Gardner, Cummins needed strict coolant testing for every service. Cummins came out with a DCA additive to the coolant to help prevent these cylinder liner holes, where the Gardener did not. I worked on these boat anchors, which were as useful as a glass eye. Cummins today are one of the least reliable engines on the road.
The mistake with motor type was made by the NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen ) with their seresi NS 2600 as well. That was a mainline Diesel locomotive and had a marine based engine in it. These type of engines weren't made for start stop usage. And therefor meant to fail in those applications. Stupid choihe from the ones who buy it. Mostly large companies that should know better, and demand another solution to their needs. In the 50's though things didn't work that way, so we got these failures from which we learned.
I recall an occasion on the A217 in Surrey when the bus driver advised the passengers to move to the raised rear of the bus as the front door area was about to get immersed in flood water. It eventually drained out on the next downgrade.
Shotts is just off the A8/M8 between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Years ago, I used to do service work at a plastic factory there, doing the water treatment on a compressor cooling system. They made plastic cases for things like watches and other gifts.
What common-sense engineer hangs a large weight far out on a limb, like a dumbell? Ditto, for putting an engine in a badly ventilated box at the back of a bus?
As a very longtime CUMMINS stockholder, I feel I need to apologize for that lousy engine. No excuse. However Jeffery, I need to make a correction for you. CHRYSLER never owned CUMMINS. CUMMINS was always an independent engine builder. Many people think because they supplied the Diesel engine for RAM pickups forever that they must own them but that’s only an exclusive agreement. There was also a rumor that FORD owned them too. Indeed, not a very good bus even though it makes for another interesting video.
Hello! LOL, I wonder if Cummins ever apologized! In the video, I mentioned Chrysler-Cummins because the new plant in Darlington, UK was a joint venture between Chrylser and Cummins. So....that's why I mentioned them together. Whether I should have....I dunno. Thanks for the clarification and thanks for watching again!!
oh i am intrigued! let us see this excavation of nightmare long burried. i am hoping for vastly underpowered engine so overtuned that it became horrifically unreliable, the worst layout and maybe even made by germans (before 44)! awww apparently wrong Daimler, and exact opposite of underpowred? hmmm i never expected that too much power would cause problems. why didn't the chasis maker just get more appropriate gearbox or something? (yes obviously would not resolve the in city opeations but sounds like it could have been sorted with few relatively easy changes) Right i am no technical type what is Tappet please? (the first cited reliability issue) oh boy i get the jest with list but the refusal to start when hot could've also used refusal start when too cold (like in winter) for rule of 3 to be preserved for the refusal to start portion. i mean it is fascinating but i am sure we can find worse ones... say that fridge factory that made trabants did they evr did busses for example? maybe one two for worst car and bus ever is possible. but i do still firmly believe that there is nothing worse than vastly undepowered engine overtuned to point where it will just break the bloc of the engine. not that i am bus driver i just think overclocking any machine is mad.
Hello! Interesting analysis!! Yeah, overclocking sounds like a good idea, but often has serious consequences in the end! Thanks very much for watching!!
Hi.ive just watched your vid about the guy wulfrunian very interesting. I did ride on one with father who was a bus driver .you may already have been informed about the Indians head on the guy bus.it came from a guy wagon I believe called a guy chieftain.i worked on the buses for 40yrs were we had guy Arabs but still had a chiefon the radiator. I find your vids very interesting please post more...
Hello! Thank you for the very nice comment about my videos, and the info about the Guy logo! Yes, more videos coming!! Thank you very much for watching!!
my family bus bussiness bought the daimler roadliner demonstrator from MTT/transperth in western australia,it had already been converted into a mobile promotions office as it was not reliable,this one had the rubber block suspension,it constantly blew head gaskets,the main gearbox issue it had was due to the EP unit normally mounted on the chassis was mounted to the side of the gearbox resulting in oil getting on the contacts and it not selecting gears,the V6 is in fact a cut down VT903 V8,uses same injectors and PT pump,it was sold to a fencing contrator who converted it to mobile home ,he had contstant issues with it cracking injector cups,and he pulled out the v6 and semi auto and fitted a 6v53 detroit diesel and allison auto after veiwing our similarly converted hino RC320 buses cos the hino DK20 motor was even worse LOL,MTT/transperth ran jet engine oil in the fluid flywheels because it was the only oil the drivers couldnt cook
@@JeffreyOrnstein yes i actually drove it as a teenager on a private road in yanchep western australia,alot of engines had problems as a result of the wilson semi automatic,drivers could jam it into any gear inc reverse at any speed,there was no protection at all,the leyland 680 motors were so overengineered they could take huge overevs and i saw one got right off the end of a 3000rpm tacho when an idiot was being assessed as a driver
Sorry but had to turn off the video because sound quality is so poor. I have problems hearing and therefore have to turn up the volume. the speaker is close to being destroyed, with your "P" pronunciations few minutes in.
I worked for National Bus in the early 70s, we only used these on local routes because they were so unreliable, after getting them started on a morning you left the engine running because they were so hard to start, the Daimler Fleetlines were not much better, they were fitted with hard, choppy suspension, had very vague steering, and brakes that were absolutely dire, the Bristol VR that eventually replaced the Fleetline was not much better, but at least you could stop it.
Gardner certainly didn't subscribe to the motto 'Customer is King', refusing to increase production to meet demand. No wonder British manufacturing went down the crapper, with an attitude like that.
Well, to answer your question, I checked Wikipedia before I did the recording. Wikipedia has Daimler pronounced with a "long A" as in the word "face" as they state. So....if you think I'm pronouncing it wrong, you may want to take this up with the Wikipedia page on Daimler. Sorry you didn't like the video.
Hello! Oh, my mistake!!! I And additionally, I didn't even know there was a Columbus, Indiana. But I caught that one, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
![Harrington Legionnaire: The 3-Axle Motorcoach That Became a Movie Star [UK Bus History]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tY5zRiDW1zM/mqdefault.jpg)
I think it's a bit unfair to call the Roadliner the worst bus ever. Problems with body flexing were common to all the early 36 ft saloons, and were more attributable to the coachbuilders' failure to appreciate the stresses at play than to the chassis designers. The Roadliner, with the ability to tuck the engine neatly under the back seat, was a very advanced design for the day, but it was badly let down by the poor Cummins engine. By all accounts, the fundamental weakness of the engine was that Cummins had decided, as a cost-cutting measure, to adopt the same V-angle for their V6 and V8 engines, the result being that the V6 was inherently unbalanced and prone to vibration which was exacerbated by the cut-and-thrust of bus work with its constant cycle of acceleration and deceleration. The Perkins worked well enough in the Roadliner, though it was always a thirsty and noisy unit, and one can understand that Daimler customers, used to the economy and reliability of the Gardner, deserted in droves until the Fleetline became available in single-deck form.
Points taken ! I can't forget the
E C W. B 51 offering in 1981/82
Hello! Oh, I'm sure there are other buses just as bad or even worse, but I was just going by what was voted on by Classic Bus mag. Thanks for watching!!
I remember this bus from my childhood. I lived in Chesterfield and this type of bus in it's Corporation green livery was occasionally used as a substitute for the usual one on the route past my house. I always knew when the Daimler was in service as it emitted a very loud and distinctive throbbing roar from the exhaust as it accelerated away from the bus stop . It always fascinated me at the time why this particular make of bus was so noisy. Your video has helped me understand why.
Hello! Glad you liked the video and found it informative! The Roadliner was certainly kind of different! Thanks very much for watching!!
"For the want of a Gardner engine, a kingdom was lost."
LOL, that just about sums it up! Thanks very much for watching!!
Gardner made engines for engineers to play with in their retirement. 6HLX is a torque monster ERG56 !
It's arguable that Gardners did themselves no favours in the longer term by refusing to expand production. Long-stroke, slow-revving diesels worked well in the pre-motorway age, but it was becoming clear that more revs plus turbocharging was the way forward. That required a ground-up redesign, and Gardners didn't have the revenue to fund development.
In the end, the LX engine died of commercial irrelevance, and it took the company with it.
@@bobwalsh172 Very good point, one use of the magnificent 6HLX is direct drive onto an alternator. When optimised for fixed load they are remarkably efficient engine, with the price of electricity being where it is a Gardner thumping away in the shed sounds to me to be a wonderful compromise. Don't tell Gretta Thurnburg she is a bit touch about this.
Shotts is in Lanarkshire, Scotland. The town is close to Glasgow.
Hello! Oh, now I know...my error. Like I didn't know there was a Columbus, Indiana. But caught that one, LOL. Thanks very much for watching!!
If you keep these great vids coming Jeffrey you’ll soon be invited to become an honorary Brit
@@tango22ah LOL, anything is possible!!
During my apprenticeship I worked on the assembly line producing these, great fun taking the bare chassis out for a road test !
Hello! Oh, that must have been quite interesting driving that chassis around!! Thank you very much for watching!!
I remember seeing the Leyland chassis caining it down the M6 with no cab and the driver wrapped up warm wearing goggles, look fun but bloody dangerous. That was in the 80's I doubt if you can do this now without some snowflake snitching on you to the HSE.
Had a lot of experience with the coach version, as a driver with Black and White. The workshop foreman told me once that the Roadliners gave him "bad Dreams"!! I enjoyed driving them, and never had a breakdown with one in service. But I belive I was the exception.
Hello! LOL, that was quite funny about the bad dreams! I guess you lucked out! Thanks for watching!!
Hi Jeffrey, bit of a ramble this post, I live in Darlington and passed my bus test with Darlington Corporation Transport in 1985 on a Daimler Decker and was then introduced to the Roadliner which was used for driver training, mainly to get used to having the wheels behind the driver, a few kerbs were killed in a two day rampage by myself !!! The corpy as we knew at, had the Fleetliners with Gardner engines. Sorry I cannot be more subjective about the Roadline, I was just happy it had a semi-automatic rather than having a crash gearbox. The drivers would tell me, on a morning, the Roadliners were all touching roofs as the air suspension had them leaning like the tower at Pisa !! As a side note, I also worked at Cummins before my bus test, I am still in the bus industry but as an Instructor.
Hello! Wow, great comment, lots of very interesting information here!! It's really interesting to read about your experience in the bus industry!!! Thank you very much for watching!!
I remember them in Belfast they shared the same attractive body with Alexander Y frames with 18 AEC SWIFT and 30 single deck Damiler Fleetline SRC . I loved those buses as a kid. I bought a photo off a Belfast Corporation Transport Roadliner in the Isle of man in June a Transport fan shop . Thank you for the Fleetline picture in BCH livery I have travelled in it a few times my favourite buses off all time. I had a big collection off Transport stuff but moved to a smaller flat and now mainly concentrate on Irish subjects. Your videos are fantastic.
Hello! I was looking for a Belfast Roadliner for the video, but oddly, could not find any, no matter how much I searched! I believe the bodies were fabricated locally. I really like the history of Belfast transport, especially the tram and trolleybus era, I have a number of books on the subject! Thanks very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Potters was the company a Belfast company it later was taken over by Alexander's for many years there was Alexander's Belfast now they are only in Scotland. We still have Wright's in Ballymena. If you can get the Colour Point books Buses in Ulster they will give you information sadly out off print. But MDS in England are selling the Belfast City bus book for £8 they are probably old stock. The Isle of man had a mobile church in an old Belfast Roadliner it's illustrated in the City Bus book. I miss named the Fleetline model they were SINGLE DECK REAR GARDER ore SRG . My bed time now it's 2325 in Ireland now. I will soon be catching my Metro Gemini bus to my morning job good night sir keep up the good work please.
Good looking BET bodyshell, went like stink, when not broken down, cornered like a 2cv, what's not to like .
Our local company PMT had a large fleet, the prototype 6000 EH for the pmt batches that followed, was a fantastic sight as a school kid, the Newcastle bus station was behind my town centre primary school.
KEH D, KVT E, initial batch was followed up by WEH G.
I think a senior PMT official had been high up at Daimler previously, PMT probably got these at a good discount.
PMT also had a few coach versions, the 1968 deliveries had very attractive Duple Commander bodywork.
A few years ago an Ex Bournemouth example was locally based, had a ride on it during a local bus rally, sat at the back, where else🤣, it sounded like an AC Cobra Le Mans.
The Marshall bodied examples were better detailed and finished than the Plaxton bodied ones at PMT .
Roadliner, a glorious failure, when replaced after only about 6 years, Bristol RE and Nationals turned up.
Hello! Thanks for all of that info! I agree it looked better than it worked, it seems! Thank you very much for watching!!
Hi i'm viatron from Sheffield, but there is an experimental Daimler Fleetline CRV6 dual entrance/exit rear engined double deck bus demonstrator built for Walsall Corporation via being preserved at the Midland Bus Museum at Wythall near Birmingham & it was very unusual of having a Cummins V6 6-cylinder diesel engine & a Daimatic 4-speed semi-automatic gearbox with fluid flywheel. This was 33ft long via having a front entrance for boarding & a rear exit plus having two staircases & that is very strange back in the day of the mid-60s when Northern Counties of Wigan had constructed it as a one off at the time & also includes a C.C.T.V. built in. Thank you for your co-operation on this very strange blunder bus subject from David Viatron Esquire of crookes in Sheffield.
Hello David! I will look up that bus you mention, it may be a good subject for a future video!! Thank you for the suggestion and thanks for watching!!
I used to live in Crookes Sheffield. I’m hopeful that Jeffrey does to videos featuring Sheffield, Rotherham and Doncaster fleets.
@@JeffreyOrnstein the CRC6-36 is 36ft long, most of them went to Johannesburg but one was built for Walsall, it is now fully restored, Wythall also have a fully restored Cummins powered Roadliner new to Wolverhampton.
I never knew this story of the Daimler Roadliner, thanks for an interesting video Jeffery.
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Thanks for watching!!
The Roadliner only lasted about 10 years in Edmonton while ETS was also testing Japanese makes. Near their end they were used for short runs or split shifts. ETS save one for ETS promotion purposes was finally let go sometime in the early 2000’s.
Hello! Thanks for the info on the Edmonton Roadliners! They looked nice, though! Thanks for watching!!
The yellow Roadliner chassis cab was not a Daimler experimental vehicle but was a test vehicle by the Uk Government Transport and Road Research Laboratory (TRRL) A moped or motorcycle could be fixed at the side within the wheelbase and used to study the behaviour under test. The other blue painted single deck bus was either a guided bus or a battery powered bus or both. It has Road Research Laboratory on the destination screen as it was demonstrated at the Road research Laboratory, predecessor of TRRL at a symposium. I think the plastic sheets in front of the headlights are part of the guidance sensors. I saw both vehicles in my time working at RRL and TRRL.
Hello! Thanks for the clarification on the Roadliner test vehicles! Thank you for watching!!
MTT Adelaide took delivery of 35 Daimler Roadliners in 1969 with Cummins Diesel and Allison gearboxes. They were the first with the then new 2 door overwidth 8' 6" body.
This was followed by 292 AEC Swifts with AH691 engines and ZF gearboxes built with the same body between 1970 and 1972. The chassis of these Swifts were shipped in CKD form from the UK and put together by MTT's workshops before being sent off to Denning to be bodied. Another 66 AEC Swifts were built with a slightly revised version of this body in 1978 done by Pressed Metal of Adelaide. These chassis came from the Leyland plant in Durban South Africa and had the bigger AH760 engine with ZF 2 speed automatic.
Sta as it was called by then also took delivery of 307 Volvo B59s with this same body at the same time.
The Daimlers, AECs and Volvos all looked the same to the untrained eye.
The STA Volvo B59's had an excellent reputation for reliability.
Hello! Thanks for the info on the MTT buses, very interesting, I may do more Australian videos in the future. Thanks for watching!!
@@vincentburrowes9243 probably why they lasted so long in service.
They took off quick as well.
Dept of Interior Canberra, later ACTION had the shorter 33 foot AEC Swifts with AH505 diesels and Volvo B58 mid engine buses that carried the same body style as each other as well, the Smithfield series 70.
They got way better service out of the Volvos and withdrew the Swifts much earlier as they proved troublesome throughout their short service careers in Canberra.
Jeffrey, you have plenty of Australian capital cities to cover yet, then theirs the vehilces of family run suburban private operators plus country operators!
@@jamesfrench7299 Two of the ACT swifts caught fire - one was a total write off - the second fire was contained by a quick acting driver using a fire extinguisher. The cause of the fire was the failure of a fuel return line. Leyland / AEC implemented a campaign on the ACT and MTT Swifts to rectify the pipe / clamp design. My TAFE Diesel teacher told me that the Adelaide Swift's had a bad habit of breaking camshafts. The Adelaide B59 Volvo's completed 25 years' service, and one was sent to Sweden in the early days for testing at Volvo's Gothenburg factory.
Another excellent video Jeffry, keep them coming. There were 11 in Bournemouth 51-58 KRU51F and 59-61 NRU59G. I can remember seeing some of the first batch in Mallard Road depot and they must have just been delivered as they still had protection on the floor. Were they noisy, a kind of high pitch buzz which is very hard to describe but I can still hear then today! I often travelled on them late on a Saturday evening from Bear Cross to Charminster Road on the route 7. I always sat up the back to listen to the engine as it was like nothing I had ever heard before. Every bump was hit with a hard thud, the suspension was non existent. In neutral they shook like mad. I had a soft spot for them though and it is sad to hear of their terrible reputation. Living on Charminster Road, close to the Royal Blue depot, I often saw the Black and White Roadliners and they were very smart with their Plaxton bodywork. Also I was happy to see the ex Bournemouth Fleetline 40 still in existence although in Belfast colours.
Hello! Thanks for all of these memories of the Roadliners in Bournemouth! Wow, very interesting! I guess they didn't opt for the air suspension, LOL! Thanks for watching!!
In 1970-1971, I attended the University of Alberta in Edmonton. I lived on the north side of the river so I had to transfer downtown and then take another bus through the river valley to the U of A. The Cummins with the Allison automatic gear box was great for this as it had lots of power and could climb out of the river valley far better than the GMCs or the CCF buses. Edmonton transit also tried some Japanese buses too. Compared to the Canadian and US buses, the Daimler and the Japanese buses had a lot of vibration in the bodies.
Hello! Thanks for your memories of the Roadliner in Canada! Very interesting to read, and the comparison to the North American buses! Thank you very much for watching!!
A bus titled PMT may have periodic hassles, so someone told me.
Potteries Motor Traction, I believe, serving the Stoke on Trent area.
LOL, sounds like that may be true!! Thanks for watching!!
Good bus, poor engine.
Apparently so! Thank you very much for watching!!
In the late 60s I lived on the edge of West Riding Automobile territory in East Leeds. Although I had the pleasure (?) of the occasional trip on a Wulfrunian, their Roadliners (10 was it?) passed me by, as did their later Leyland Lynx buses. Imagine being a West Riding fitter, struggling to keep the Wulfrunians on the road, getting some Roadliners as well. Unlucky or what!
Hello! OH, that must have been a sight! First dealing with all those Wulfs, and then the Roadliners. What was it about West Riding that made them buy these?? LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
Jeffery, over there in the USA, has got very close to (my) home in several of his videos, but with this one he has arrived on our doorstep, with photos of two buses used here in Chesterfield! Indeed, the Chesterfield Roadliner, number 80, is pictured on the very spot where I often catch buses today! I also see in the comments that I am not the only Chesterfield-connected Jeffrey fan!
Hello Melanie! LOL, I knew I'd finally get there somehow, in my videos!! I'm so glad you like my videos and thanks so much for watching again!!
The Bristol VRT was surely the worst ever!
OK, I'll look that one up! Thanks for watching!!
No I would have said the earlier Bristol VRL or the guy wulfrunian
Jeff you've got to do a video on the MCW Metrobuses.
I HAS SPENT MANY HOURS ON MCW PROTOTYPE VEHICLES
Hello! I'll look into the MCW! Thanks very much for watching!!
As a long standing bus enthusiast I remember the introduction of the Roadliner. You mention that the Cummins V6 was basically a marine engine which actually speaks volumes. A marine engine wouldn't have to go through the speed cycling of a service bus and maybe that's why the coach bodied versions fared better, as they don't do much stop/ start work. Black and White Motorways the Cheltenham based express coach operator, from memory kept theirs for a normal operational time and so maybe the Roadliner V6 was better suited for constant speed use.
Hello! Oh yes, and it should have been a coach-only chassis!! Thank you very much for watching!!
The Cummins V6 engine range was a general purpose diesel engine used in many different applications. The engine was an extremely popular truck and bus engine in the USA for many years. The marine version of this engine was just one of may applications, which also included stationary power, industrial usage and electrical generators, just to name a handful.
Nice seeing the pictures inside the Gardner factory. I live quite close to where it was. Now it's just a small industrial estate 😢
Hello! Glad you found the video interesting! Thank you very much for watching!!
Rough and noisy, refusing to start when hot \ cold, refusing to start in general sounds just like the Scania Omnilink CNG ( Compressed natural gas 👎) buses we have here in Sweden, aswell as constant breakdowns and engine replacements every 60 000 miles.
All CNG buses are unreliable here in Sweden, but the Scanias and the Mercedes Citaro CNG buses are the worst.
The Scanias use a Scania made 9 liter 5 cylinder CNG engine and the Citaros a Mercedes CNG engines.
The older Diesel powered Scania buses had done 600 000 + miles on their original 9 liter inline 6 cylinder engines.
West Riding owned Roadliners and Wulfrynian! No wonder they went bust
LOL, good point, wonder what happened there. Thanks for watching!!
As a proud ex-Leyland Motors man I always thought that our Panther was pretty useless with its floppy super-flexible frame, but like the Roadliner…
Panther Cubs and Panthers had severe problems with their semi automatic gearboxes, but for some reason, the same problems weren't as bad with the double decker versions. We in Manchester were 'treated' to Panther Cubs and Panthers by the mid to late 1960s, but after 10 years or less, they'd all been withdrawn by the mid 1970s. In contrast, the double door/double decker Mancunians, introduced in 1968, were still running well into the early 1980s, over a decade after their introduction.
Hello! Oh, I've received numerous comments on the Panther....thanks for the info, could be a good subject for a future video! Thanks for watching!!
You would think when they designed the chassis, they would have first determined that the available engines would fit. I was born and raised in Coventry, England. Coventry Corporation Transport bus fleet was heavy with Daimlers, no doubt because the Daimler factory was in Coventry.
Hello! What you said certainly makes sense...but the real world doesn't always turn out that way, LOL! Thanks for watching again!!
In the 1950s and 1960s, due to the prevailing design of single decker buses, the engine was almost invariably mounted under the floor, near the back. In Manchester, UK, the local Corporation had Leyland Panther Cub and Panther single deckers, introduced between 1965 and 1967. Their mechanical unreliaibility, with a semi automatic gearbox, was legendary. After only around a decade of service, by the mid 1970s, barely a decade after introduction (in some cases less), they had all been withdrawn from service. For the next decade and more, single decker buses were a rarity in the Greater Manchester areas, indeed my local route was modified to allow double deckers to run on it.
Hello! Thanks for the info on the Panther/Panther Cubs. May be a good subject for a future video. Thanks for watching!!
Well it sure sounds like it as plaqed with a lot of problems or plenty of ideas that do not work out in real world working conditions, Learn something new in every video, lots of research for a bus line they probobly wanted to sweep under the rug and be forgotten about, great video, thanks for bringing us along
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Someone had to do a video on the Roadliner, LOL!! Thanks very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein It was another coach builder that i had not heard of, you hear Daimler and think the Chrysler partner in cars of today,
Sorry for commenting again (a month later), but I've just watched this video again and it makes me smile to see a bus pictured in the town where I live show just above Jeffrey's head!
Hell Melanie, I'm really glad I had that picture above me of the bus in your town!!! Makes me very happy! Thanks very much for watching again!!
Hi Jeffrey, many thanks for this video. Great content as always. As you mentioned, here in Belfast we had 18 Roadliners and they were awful! Flexing of the bodies caused all sorts of problems including a very roughrife for passengers!
Hello! I'm glad you liked the video - yes, could not leave out mention of the Belfast Roadliners! Thank you very much for watching!!
Cummins is on my personal black list since I rode the DB Class 612 (Engine: QSK19-R). No other DMU engine makes such a terrible noise, and no other DMU engine has those short strange surprising lags in power output.
Hello! Wow, that DMU sounds pretty awful (literally)! Maybe a video on it someday. Thanks very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Yes it does, literally xD
The weirdest thing on mentioned DMUs is the tilting mechanism. Everyone who knows the Pendolino tilting technology loves it. That's what came out after the the concept of the british APT was sold to Italy. That's the standard, and it was sold to orher companies as well, for instance the ICE-T uses it.
But then there are also military companies that want to sell their products in a peaceful environment, so they thougth "What if we built the turret stabiliser from the Leopard2 tank under at train to make it tilt?" It will throw the railcar rudely from one side to the other, and always a little too late. In contrast the Pendolino tilting mechanism always tilts the car gently and smoothly right on time.
If the tilting mechanism is switched off and the motor is idling downhill, then one can feel that DB Class 612 has really good suspension and is running on really good bogies. It's indeed a really good railcar, ruined by the noise of the engine and the rudeness of the tilting mechanism.
Interesting video and thanks for posting. You say that the Roadliner was the first low entrance bus but didn’t the RE come out at much the same time? How many times have we heard of something being rushed to market before it was ready or being ordered of the drawing board - with the inevitable results?
Hello! Good question about the first low-floor bus...there may be several that claim that distinction. And yes, rushing things to market just to rush it to market often ends badly. Thanks very much for watching!!
The Bristol RE was launched in the same year as the Roadliner but needed a step into the saloon just behind the cab. The Roadliner could have a bus body without any steps, and 6000EH, the bus prototype was so configured.
In its later years, stolid Albion Motors produced several lightweight bus models, including the Albion Nimbus, Albion Aberdonian, and Albion Viking. I don't know about the latter two, but the Nimbus was a pretty disastrous chassis.
Hello! I actually did a separate video on the Albion Nimbus. Thank you for watching!!
I was only 6 or 7 when the last coach was produced so I can't say I ever travelled in one but they certainly looked to be at least the equal if not better than the rivals, just a shame that under the skin they were troublesome.
Hello! Yes, they did have some stylish bodywork...too bad the mechanicals didn't match!!
Shotts is in Lanarkshire (Scotland), not Lancashire.
Oh yes, I now know that! Thank you very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein There used to be a rather large prison there (I don't know if that's still the case), not quite as bad as the 'Bar L', Barlinnie, the notorious prison in Glasgow. I always thought that nickname resembled some sort of ranch in a US TV Western series, which was no doubt intended. It was rumoured to be one of the most violent prisons in the whole of the UK.
The roadliner was a good bus,it was the body builders who did not use the correct strengthening of the body options
Hello! I guess you are right about the bus bodies! Thanks for watching!!
love it.
Hello! Really glad you liked the video! Thank you very much for watching!!!
The engine reminds me of that on a lot of American city buses. Totally unorthodox for British buses. Cummins were put off selling engines in Britain for years, but in the late 80s, the Leyland Lynx was produced with a Cummins 6 cylinder inline engine, and they have produced bus engines for the UK ever since.
Hello! Yes, there is a significant difference between US and UK buses! Thanks for the added engine info and thanks for watching!!
I have to wonder if the body was a problem, I don't see a lot of ventilation for the rear engines here. VW Transporter-style slats if not ZAZ 968A/B style scoops might be called for (the scoops might've been hard to implement on a bus already at the legal or practical width limit though - the ZAZ is a very small car.)
Hello! You may be right about the lack of body ventilation! Thank you very much for watching!!
THE WYTHALL BUS MUSEUM HAS A RESTORED CUMMINS ROAD LINNER, MCW IN 1981 INSTALLED THE FIRST CUMMINS INLINE L10 IN METROBUS DEMONSTRATOR TOJ 592S
Hello! Oh, yes I think I saw a picture of that one in the museum. Should have added a section on preserved examples. Thanks very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnsteinAs I said in my Main reply Wythall also has the ex Walsall CRC6-36, which is basically a Fleetline / Roadliner cross with the engine hidden under the second staircase. These are the only two Cummins-powered Daimlers still running in the UK.
You should do an episode on the AM General transit bus in the American market during the 1970s
Hello! Oh yes, that IS a good subject that I want to eventually do! Thanks for watching!!
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the coach used for a school excursion I went on that had serious engine issues and could barely climb hills.
We got overtaken by a bee.
it was leyland coaches that could be slow
Hello! LOL, sounds like it could have been that Roadliner! Thanks very much for watching!!
That sounds as if your school trip was more likely to have been on board a Bedford, after a lifetime of driving buses, coaches and trucks, i feel qualified to say that Bedfords were so underpowered, they had dead flies on back window.
It has to be remembered that in the 60,s we were transitioning from front engined coaches and buses, where the driver was intimately acquainted with the engine speed, and manual crash gearboxes that could not be rushed when gearchanging. To then arrive in a coach or bus with a rear engine, that you could hardly hear, and have a semi automatic gearchange, Drivers would snap the gearchange, because they could, and that action, meant that because the Cummins engine took a relatively long time to die down from its high engine speed, resulted in extra stress on the gearbox and frequent failures. I seem to remember that some of the Black and White versions had a two speed back axle fitted , giving them in effect an eight speed box. I do remember that with a sympathetic and empathic driver they gave a very smooth fast comfortable ride, and performed marvellously compared to Leyland Leopards, which with a five speed semi automatic box, needed a downhill slope to overcome the total lack of power, when trying to accelerate above 47 through to 53 mph, when the power came back in.
In my view as a driver, the best British built coach chassis was the Bristol RELH, when fitted with the superb Gardner 6HLX engine. If you had one of those you were king of the road ,until the Volvo B58 and its successor the B10M arrived. The Scottish Bus Group replaced their Bristol REMH fleet with these, and when you saw their distinctive lights coming up behind you, you new that you were about to be passed and left standing by one of their Volvos. They should have had Catch me if you can! As a strapline on the rear end along with the Scottish Saltaire and the words Go Scottish. But I digress, thank you for the videos Geoffrey. Please do one on the Renault FR1, I drove literally several million kilometres in these , and I rate them very highly indeed, from the design, the performance, the economy, the comfort and the very idiosyncratic design, I commend them to you
Hi ,if you get time look up the Foden NC it was built by northern counties bodybuilders with Foden chassis ,I enjoyed this video all the best
Mark 😊😊
Hello! Ok, I will look into it, thanks! Thank you very much for watching!!
Regardless of some production problems these vehicles are stylish and classic Art even. Thanks! All the busses featured thus far as a matter of fact.
Hello! I agree that the bodies looked very nice, with a good amount of variety to the Roadliners. Too bad the mechanicals weren't as good! Thanks for watching!!
@JeffreyOrnstein And will continue and tell you how much your passion and hard work is appreciated!
Good post. Cummins always had a great reputation for smaller diesels, used in cars and vans. Nice mention of the semi-automatic gearbox system (epicyclic?) here, similar problems with the single decker Leyland Panther models of the same era. Also those with double doors tended to suffer cracks in the bodywork over a period of time. Nice to see the Leyland Panther Cub as the 3rd worst bus ever, I'm surprised the Leyland Panther didn't make the list. I'll be visiting Manchester Transport Museum next month, they still have 1965 Leyland Panther Cub on display, sadly no Panthers, many of which were later exported to Australia after their short service in the Manchester area.
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Maybe I'll do a video on the Panther Cub in the future, LOL. I also did a video on the Australian Panthers that operated in Brisbane. Thanks for watching!!
Excellent video Jeff 😊 keep up the good work 👏 👍
Hello! I'm really glad you liked this video!!! Thanks for watching again!!
None of the buses or coaches looked bad but the chassis sounds like a massive disaster!
Hello! Yes, the bodywork looked quite stylish on some of them....but the mechanicals were bad, LOL! Thanks for watching!!
We love you Jeffrey :o)
Hello! Thank you, thank you! Much appreciated! I love all of you, too! Thanks so much for watching!
Well this pithy series, with its great period pics is highly informative and remarkably, allows me not to rant about the finer points of pronunciation of Coventry. Keep up the goid work.
LOL, I appreciate that the rest of the video offsets the pronunciation error, and that you like my videos! Thanks for watching!!
Another cracking vid
Thank you very much and thanks for watching again!!
Worst Bus ever, unless an even worse one comes😂
LOL! I'm sure there's going to be lots of those!!! Thank you very much for watching!
There were many design innovations for buses in Britain. Where to put the engine seemed a priority in the late 50s and early 60s. rendering some designs as odd, such as the Wulfrunian. The Roadliner certainly looks nice, shame for the unreliabilty.
Like the video.
Hello! Yes, some of the bodywork looked quite stylish. Too bad the mechanicals didn't match. Thanks very much for watching!!
It's interesting to know that Chrysler was connected to Cummins even back then. There's a saying that the worst part of a Cummins is the Dodge Ram pickup it comes with.
LOL, that's funny about the Dodge Ram! Thank you very much for watching!!
Chrysler has never had any association with Cummins other than buying engines from them to use in various trucks over the years. Cummins is, and always has been an independent manufacturer of engines and power systems which they have sold to dozens of companies for a huge range of applications.
Shotts is in Lanarkshire, a county in Scotland, not Lancashire, which is an English county.
Oh yes, my error. Comment No. 3,247 about this LOL. Thanks for watching!!
Snould have used a Detroit diesel.
Oh yes, maybe it should have! Thanks for watching!!
Scammell Motors fitted Detroit 8V71 engines in many export Crusaders but would not fit them in general haulage trucks for the UK market as they considered them unsuitable. When Bedford started selling their larger TM series trucks they were initially fitted with the newer 6V92 and the larger 8V92 engines but later switched to Cummins 10 and 14 litre units.
I enjoyed this video, but was more than a little surprised to see three of my pictures used as illustrations. They were taken off my Flickr photostream without my knowledge or consent. Clearly they were screengrabs as I have disabled downloading. I do say on my Flickr site that I am happy to consider the matter if anyone wants to use my pictures for any reasonable purpose. Had I been asked I would have given my consent...but as you haven't I must ask you to remove them. The pictures are: East Midlands Atlantean, South Shields single deck Fleetline and similar West Midlands Fleetline. Note that I am trying to be nice about this. I could have contacted RUclips direct and asked them to take down the video for copyright infringement.
Hello Mr. Flett,
I absolutely apologize for this - I have sent you a message through Flickr. Hopefully I will hear back from you.
Thank you.
Perhaps if looking at the reliability of them and poor fuel economy, they were worse for operators buy for passengers, those bloody awful Little Nipper and Eager Beaver branded minivans used by SYPTE were the worst by a country mile. Thanks for another video though. Very interesting.
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video and found it interesting! Thanks very much for watching!!
A lack of proper engine developement! Great video 👍
Very glad you liked the video!!! Thanks for watching!!
The Cummins V6 and V8 engines are the worst Engines ever. These engines were in the Dodge and Ford D1000 trucks and were always in the shop for burnt holes in the cylinder liners, causing piston hydraulicking lockups. Compared to Gardner, Cummins needed strict coolant testing for every service. Cummins came out with a DCA additive to the coolant to help prevent these cylinder liner holes, where the Gardener did not. I worked on these boat anchors, which were as useful as a glass eye. Cummins today are one of the least reliable engines on the road.
Hello! Thanks for the info on the Cummins engines! Very interesting!!! Thanks for watching!!
Great video as always. I look forward to the next one. Thanks 👍
Hello! I'm really glad you like my videos!!! Thanks very much for watching!!
The mistake with motor type was made by the NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen ) with their seresi NS 2600 as well.
That was a mainline Diesel locomotive and had a marine based engine in it. These type of engines weren't made for start stop usage. And therefor meant to fail in those applications. Stupid choihe from the ones who buy it. Mostly large companies that should know better, and demand another solution to their needs. In the 50's though things didn't work that way, so we got these failures from which we learned.
Hello! Interesting analysis comparing to the NS diesel locomotive! Thank you very much for watching!
Ah yes. the engine was basically NBG for bus use, but a lot better as a coach. Do the Dennis Dominator, when very good wasn't quite good enough.
Hello! Ok, will look at the Dennis Dominator! Thanks very much for watching!!
Talking of buses, we have sustained very heavy rain here and my bus home had to ford flooding and took on water😬
Hello! Oh my gosh, that does not sound too good, hopefully you made it home ok! Thanks very much for watching!!
I recall an occasion on the A217 in Surrey when the bus driver advised the passengers to move to the raised rear of the bus as the front door area was about to get immersed in flood water. It eventually drained out on the next downgrade.
@@robt2151 A driver who cared about his passengers!
Shotts is in Scotland not Lancashire. Jeffery, your videos are very good always, I enjoy all I have watched.
Shotts is just off the A8/M8 between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Years ago, I used to do service work at a plastic factory there, doing the water treatment on a compressor cooling system. They made plastic cases for things like watches and other gifts.
Hello! Yes, now I know, after many comments, LOL. Very happy you like my videos! Thanks for watching!!
What common-sense engineer hangs a large weight far out on a limb, like a dumbell? Ditto, for putting an engine in a badly ventilated box at the back of a bus?
LOL, yes, you do have to wonder what were they thinking??? Thanks for watching!!
As a very longtime CUMMINS stockholder, I feel I need to apologize for that lousy engine. No excuse. However Jeffery, I need to make a correction for you. CHRYSLER never owned CUMMINS. CUMMINS was always an independent engine builder. Many people think because they supplied the Diesel engine for RAM pickups forever that they must own them but that’s only an exclusive agreement. There was also a rumor that FORD owned them too. Indeed, not a very good bus even though it makes for another interesting video.
Hello! LOL, I wonder if Cummins ever apologized! In the video, I mentioned Chrysler-Cummins because the new plant in Darlington, UK was a joint venture between Chrylser and Cummins. So....that's why I mentioned them together. Whether I should have....I dunno. Thanks for the clarification and thanks for watching again!!
Roadliner vs Transbus the worst of the worst,tough choice!
LOL, Transbus looked nice but yeah, it didn't work too well. Thanks for watching!!
oh i am intrigued!
let us see this excavation of nightmare long burried. i am hoping for vastly underpowered engine so overtuned that it became horrifically unreliable, the worst layout and maybe even made by germans (before 44)!
awww apparently wrong Daimler,
and exact opposite of underpowred? hmmm i never expected that too much power would cause problems. why didn't the chasis maker just get more appropriate gearbox or something? (yes obviously would not resolve the in city opeations but sounds like it could have been sorted with few relatively easy changes)
Right i am no technical type what is Tappet please? (the first cited reliability issue)
oh boy i get the jest with list but the refusal to start when hot could've also used refusal start when too cold (like in winter) for rule of 3 to be preserved for the refusal to start portion.
i mean it is fascinating but i am sure we can find worse ones... say that fridge factory that made trabants did they evr did busses for example? maybe one two for worst car and bus ever is possible.
but i do still firmly believe that there is nothing worse than vastly undepowered engine overtuned to point where it will just break the bloc of the engine. not that i am bus driver i just think overclocking any machine is mad.
Hello! Interesting analysis!! Yeah, overclocking sounds like a good idea, but often has serious consequences in the end! Thanks very much for watching!!
The tappet is a rod that taps a spring loaded valve or (in the Cummins PT system) an injection pump. These can break if the engine is run too fast
@@StephenAllcroft Ah yes that makes sense given later mentioned problems with no engine braking.
thank you very kindly!
The Leyland Tiger was a pig to work on.
LOL, that bus must have been fun! Thanks for watching!!
Hi.ive just watched your vid about the guy wulfrunian very interesting. I did ride on one with father who was a bus driver .you may already have been informed about the Indians head on the guy bus.it came from a guy wagon I believe called a guy chieftain.i worked on the buses for 40yrs were we had guy Arabs but still had a chiefon the radiator. I find your vids very interesting please post more...
Hello! Thank you for the very nice comment about my videos, and the info about the Guy logo! Yes, more videos coming!! Thank you very much for watching!!
Oh dear
LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
More worse!!
Yup! Thank you very much for watching!!
Could you please cut out the annoying music? I am fine with just listening to you talking. Thank you.
Ok, thanks for the feedback!
@JeffreyOrnstein Music not too distracting, it's your channel, do as you like !
my family bus bussiness bought the daimler roadliner demonstrator from MTT/transperth in western australia,it had already been converted into a mobile promotions office as it was not reliable,this one had the rubber block suspension,it constantly blew head gaskets,the main gearbox issue it had was due to the EP unit normally mounted on the chassis was mounted to the side of the gearbox resulting in oil getting on the contacts and it not selecting gears,the V6 is in fact a cut down VT903 V8,uses same injectors and PT pump,it was sold to a fencing contrator who converted it to mobile home ,he had contstant issues with it cracking injector cups,and he pulled out the v6 and semi auto and fitted a 6v53 detroit diesel and allison auto after veiwing our similarly converted hino RC320 buses cos the hino DK20 motor was even worse LOL,MTT/transperth ran jet engine oil in the fluid flywheels because it was the only oil the drivers couldnt cook
Hello! Wow, all of that is really interesting to read! Thank you very much for watching!!
@@JeffreyOrnstein yes i actually drove it as a teenager on a private road in yanchep western australia,alot of engines had problems as a result of the wilson semi automatic,drivers could jam it into any gear inc reverse at any speed,there was no protection at all,the leyland 680 motors were so overengineered they could take huge overevs and i saw one got right off the end of a 3000rpm tacho when an idiot was being assessed as a driver
Sorry but had to turn off the video because sound quality is so poor. I have problems hearing and therefore have to turn up the volume. the speaker is close to being destroyed, with your "P" pronunciations few minutes in.
Sorry you didn't like the video and for your unfortunate hearing issue.
I worked for National Bus in the early 70s, we only used these on local routes because they were so unreliable, after getting them started on a morning you left the engine running because they were so hard to start, the Daimler Fleetlines were not much better, they were fitted with hard, choppy suspension, had very vague steering, and brakes that were absolutely dire, the Bristol VR that eventually replaced the Fleetline was not much better, but at least you could stop it.
Hello! Wow, very interesting!! Thanks for your memories of the Roadliner and the other buses! Thanks for watching!!
Worst bus ever surely the Bristol VR😅😊😅
LOL, maybe it's good subject for a future video!!! Thanks very much for watching!!
Faust! ;)
Hello! Yes, you are! Thanks very much for watching!!
CUMMINS ENGINE GREAT POWER, “HOT RESTART” AND COOLING PROBLEMS.
LOL, that explains the engine, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
Seams like the Brits couldn't do much of anything right in the post WW2 era! WOW
Seriously??
Leyland Titan PD2 or 3??
Also Leyland Atlantean, Bristol RE and AEC Routemaster.
@@rolandharmer6402 Very true.
LOL, thanks for watching!!
Gardner certainly didn't subscribe to the motto 'Customer is King', refusing to increase production to meet demand. No wonder British manufacturing went down the crapper, with an attitude like that.
Why can't Americans pronounce British words properly?! Daimler is pronounced: dime-ler.
Well, to answer your question, I checked Wikipedia before I did the recording. Wikipedia has Daimler pronounced with a "long A" as in the word "face" as they state. So....if you think I'm pronouncing it wrong, you may want to take this up with the Wikipedia page on Daimler. Sorry you didn't like the video.
Jeffrey. Excellent but Shotts is in North Lanarkshire, not Lancashire.
Different country, mate.
Hello! Oh, my mistake!!! I And additionally, I didn't even know there was a Columbus, Indiana. But I caught that one, LOL! Thanks very much for watching!!
@JeffreyOrnstein You are welcome Jeffrey. Your efforts are well researched, well presented and well received and appreciated.
Cheers.