The Ribble bus in the river was one belonging to their Blackburn depot. It was 457 NTC 637M and was travelling to Rochdale on their 244 Preston to Rochdale service on the afternoon of the 16th November 1984. The accident occurred very close to Rawtenstall town centre when it ran through a wall and belly flopped into the river due to excessive speed, which the driver couldn't correct. To prove the Nationals strength, no windows were broken, and the engine was still running when the rescue services arrived. It was recovered to Ribble's Burnley depot for damage assessment. It was deemed a repairable project, but due to it being nearly eleven years old, it was withdrawn from service and stripped for usable parts. Hope this is of interest.
It's probably one of the best designs of buses at its time. One of the first buses to use air suspension all round, a turbo charged engine, low floor design and consideration into the drivers ease of use. Rust protection was second to none, as was build quality. Yes the 510 engine wasn't the greatest option to go for but that was it's biggest flaw. It paved the way for a new generation of bus designs used by other manufacturers and to date the only bus built in its own amazing, automated factory. I'm not biased, I look after and run 3 Mk1s and 3 Mk2s.
@JeffreyOrnstein it's biggest flaw was 1) the engine choice. 2) it was so forward-thinking and radical in design that bus operators didn't know how to look after them. The 6 we own, most of the original spec engine still in them, and one managed 30 years in service! New buses won't get anywhere near a service life of 30 years. We're based at lillyhall literally round the corner from the original factory and still have contact with ex leyland plant workers and management.
@@JeffreyOrnsteinIn honesty the 510 wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. The fixed head scared mechanics, but it rarely gave trouble. The bottom bearings, ends and mains, were easy to change but were often neglected. I own a MK1 and have been involved with them since the year 2000 in preservation. I travelled on them from the age of 0 to 17 almost daily. They proved themselves to be a very reliable, durable and long lasting design - once operators got used to them.
I ran a few of these in Perth Western Australia. You had to hold the wheel tight. They would lean terribly dropping into a sweeping bend but the airbags would pump themselves up through the corner. Then, leaving the corner, they would flop the other way. I fitted 'NuWay' level valves which were much faster acting and the National went into corners like a go-kart. They had a flared fan-like exhaust and would blow clouds of black smoke at take-off. I never cured that. The rivets were a sod to drill out. The tyres had too little clearance around the wheel arch causing the tyres to get excessively hot on freeways causing regular tyre issues. The motors hung together well but the injection pumps would die. Injection pumps killed my buses off eventually. I ran out of injection pumps. They were a very good looking bus. The removeable skirts were magic. Just swap a panel with a screwdriver to repair. The door operating mechanism was problematic.
A footnote to the Leyland National story - the modular body design was promoted for rail use in the UK and abroad. A number of prototype vehicles were built, leading to several fleets of (moderately unpopular) trains operating in the UK, some of which were only taken out of use relatively recently. Search for the BRE-Leyland Railbus for more information on the prototypes (including at least one that ran in the USA), British Rail Classes 140, 141 and 142 which used Leyland National body parts, and the related Classes 143 and 144 that used a similar construction but with bodies sourced from another bus manufacturer. I grew up near Leyland and still remember seeing empty bus chassis being driven around the roads in the area, with a very cold looking driver sitting atop the frame with no bodywork to protect him from the elements! Thanks for the interesting video! :)
Hello! Thank you for the very interesting info about the National - those open chassis driving around must have been a sight to see! Yes - there were a couple of railbuses based on the National that made it to the USA - in fact, I've done a video about LEV-2, which ended up being scrapped a few years ago after suffering at a trolley museum in Connecticut! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Yes, these railbus units in the UK, was known as Pacers, having only the past few years been discontinued, and it did amaze me some of them actually ended up State Side. They did have quite a poor ride rep, and if I remember right, one is in preservation at The Midland Railway, in Ripley, Derbyshire. I absolutely hated them, when I had to use them on my many trips in to Yorkshire (Northern Rail). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail)
Brought back a lot of memories from my childhood in 1970s-80s Britain, did this video - thank you! Particular memories for me was visiting my Grandma on Saturdays in this bus. Unlike the big double-deckers I took everywhere else, her house on the distant new-build outskirts of Sheffield was only serviced by Nationals. I remember sitting near the front and, as a bus-obsessed kid, being rather frustrated by the very high window line - pointedly and very aptly highlighted here. A small kid sitting on those seats had no chance of seeing any street-level action through the window. Sit towards the back of the bus, you say? In the early 80s, that was where the smokers sat, and the secondhand-smoke-induced nausea from B&H chain-smokers in the rear stains yellow my memories of my regular trips to Mosborough to this day. Smoking was only banned on South Yorkshire buses - along with the rest of the UK - in 1992. The second memory trigger was the photo of the articulated buses. As a kid, going on one of these "bendy buses" in Sheffield town centre was the highlight of a trip to town - although this probably only occurred for me a couple of times before these buses were disappeared. Only later when the idea was reintroduced (I was on such a bus just yesterday in Brussels!) did I learn that the versions you mentioned were quickly retired for very dodgy engineering whose source you explain well. As soon as I saw the first photo you show - taken in Sheffield near the Midland Railway station with the University of Sheffield Student Union's "Nelson Mandela" building in the background (a name that was still a controversial political statement in Thatcher's sanctions-resistant early-80s Britiain - and that's why they used it!) immediately brought the memories flooding back. Thatcher, of course, would have her revenge on South Yorkshire Transport's socialist mindset" of frequent and affordable public transportation, with its subsidised cheap fares and technical innovations (not all successes, as we can see), but that's a story for another day and has nothing to do with engineering. Thank you for this video, Sir!
My experience of the Leyland National in Australia, purchased in used condition by my employer. A Leyland National, fully imported, British manufacture, Headless 500ci rear engine laying on its side, it ran well but problems soon surfaced. The air filter was positioned in such a way that it could not be serviced!! It looked to me like it had never been serviced since new, also its connection to the body was never right and a gap of 25mm was present right behind the rear wheels where dirt and water could enter the filter. The engine soon began using oil so we dropped it out for repair. As I began taking it apart I could see that this motor was designed to be put together in several different ways, ie in the bus it lay on its side, in a cabover truck the exhaust manifold would be away from the driver, in a boat the flywheel would be at the other end, a brilliant design. But, they used 17mm nuts on M10 bolts making it difficult to get a spanner onto many of the bolts, but why? When the Japanese proved beyond all doubt that 14mm was sufficient to do the job!!! There was a problem with the cooling also, maybe it is OK in Britain to recycle the warm air from the rear of the bus, through the radiator and back to the engine bay but in our climate, this is not ‘best practice’. The rear engine Bedford and the Nissan had a semicircular guard between the engine and the radiator, bringing air in through a side vent, through the radiator and out through screens in the back panels. We did the same with this one fitting a fan with the opposite pitch. This bus was used while # 5 was off the road, the driver approached me about a strange noise that occurred on a Left turn, “Take me out and show me,” I said, so we drove around the Redbank Railway Workshops, all Left turns. Nothing happened, she was about to go Right and back to our shop, “No, go around again,” She had to brake a little harder and swung Left at such late notice, I was standing on the step with the door open listening for this noise, looking down at the front wheel that was not turning, not even on the road, as the bus righted after the turn we got this, ‘Aeroplane touchdown noise’, arrk “That’s it,” she said. The problem, on the Left rear an Air suspension control rod had broken pushing that Air Bag fully up, while on the Right rear one of the tires was flat, at the front an anti roll bar 50mm thick was simply picking the wheel right up off the road. Ted from down under.
In the mid 1980s I used to ride home from school by bus. It would usually be either an Eastern Counties Bristol VR, Bristol RE or Leyland National Mk1. The Nationals were R & S registration with short roof pods most of the time. On only a couple of occasions an early National wirh long roof pod on an L registration ran the bus service I used to get. On rare occasions did a National Mk2 with no roof pod run. The National Mk1 with the short roof pod was my favourite. As a 10 to 13 year old I was taken by the crisp and well thought out design of the interior of the phase 2 Mk1. The long pod version had an older look to it inside I found. The noise of the Leyland 510 engine was the other thing I remember fondly. The 510 had a very distinctive clatter at idle and a memorable whirring whooshing noise as the bus pulled away. The only other bus that came close in terms of distintive engine noise for me was the London Transport MCW Metrobus double deckers I used to ride to and from university in the early 1990s. It's the National though that's my alk time favourite bus.
I had to double check the name above this comment to check, this could've been typed by me. Exactly the same sentiments regarding both the National and also the Metrobus... what a sound!!
From 1969 to 1975 I worked in the Leyland Truck and Bus Central Engineering design office on various projects which included the National Bus so I feel that I must congratulate you on producing a very well informed video which includes a number of items about which even I was not aware. Nice work! I will just add that the original styling was carried out by David Bache of Rover but, at the last minute, Sir Donald Stokes the CEO decided to call in Michelotti instead to give the bus a revised look. The initial vehicle design was for three length of 10, 11 and 12 metres but, for the Michelotti redesign, these were replaced by two lengths of approximately10.3 and 11.3 metres to better match the seating pitch. The later 10.9 metre was, as you said, a hybrid of the two. The bus was originally designed to take the 680 engine and the mistaken decision to change this to the less refined 510 is suitably described in some of the other comments. The overhead heating system inevitably lead to warm heads and cold feet: a strange decision aimed at simplifying the floor design but not the best one.
Hello! Great to hear from someone who worked on the National! Interesting info on the original design of the bus. Wish I knew that when I was making the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The 500 series engine was the brainchild of Albert Fogg who had come to chief engineer at Leyland from directorship of the Motor Industry Research Association, the charitable view is he was an original thinker. Higher output Leyland 680s and 400s as well as examples with experimental turbocharger fitments had problems with cylinder head gasket failure. Dr Fogg's decision was to replace them with an engine with no cylinder head. The 500 series was controversial in buses but disastrous in lorries. An early 700 cu in fixed head engine had worked well on the test benches and delivered the desired 260bhp with relatively light pressure turbocharging, but the Marketing people demanded a 1000kg weight for the engine coupled to a pneumocyclic gearbox, so it was downsized from 11.9 litres to 8.2. The 260 hp 511 version was at the limits of material science in regards to the environment in the combustion chambers, under certain circumstances pistons would melt. This was at the time Volvo and Scania had just started importing lorries into the UK. Volvo's F88 had a new design of turbocharged engine, taking the opposite tack to Dr Fogg, with six individual cylinder heads, each with its own gasket. the move from 10 11 and 12m was due to a recommendation from an international conference of city operators for a minimum width of 1421mm for doorways. this meant the longest envisaged bay made the bus 300mm too long to operate legally in the UK and most other places at the time.
@@StephenAllcroft As I recall, the 500 engine was mainly the brainchild of the then Chief Engineer for engines (I forget his name) who had previously designed a headless production petrol engine for Leyland in the 1930's. Given the horsepower-per-litre that was being demanded from the downsized 500 engine, it was an understandable route to go down since it not only removed the head gasket problem but also improved the cooling water flow around the heads and the upper cylinders. But as always, the devil was in the details and, as with the AEC V8 diesel which was developed alongside the 500, the details were bedevilled in a few areas.
One thing that helped the National last as long as it did, was that whilst not "low floor" by modern standards (due to the step inside), they were still low by the standards of many other single deckers of the period and later, and therefore gave good access even at a time true low floor buses were coming along. Add in that the air suspension could be retrofitted for kneeling, along with the wide entrance, and you've got a bus that whilst not accessible by modern standards (or even standards of the newest buses at the time) was still more accessible compared to many newer buses that were still around in the late 90s and early 2000s (and remember that for every person in a wheelchair who needs a totally flat floor and ramp, there many older or walking disabled people who will benefit from a lower step even without full wheelchair access). A company where I live ran some heavily refurbished Nationals calling them "easy access" and it's hard to dispute compared to the more modern Dennis Darts (with a higher floor) that they were running in competition with. Even when the Darts were replaced by Low Floor versions, these still lacked the wheelchair ramps found on modern buses, so by todays standards their accessibility was not perfect. The heating system issues with the National are something that have plagued British buses for a long time, keeping them warm in winter and cool in summer, and many radical ideas have failed. Most recently the issue has been more about cooling in summer, where there has been a tendency to remove opening windows in favour of "air cooling" which can't cope on hot days. Ultimately though the approach taken with the National, combined with old school floor level radiators, has proven to be pretty effective and has seen widespread use by many manufacturers. Perhaps the most obvious was Optare, who pretty much revived and improved the National's original system to good effect, giving their Delta (and variants) and replacement Excel, the same iconic rear pod as the National. Finally, towards the end of their lives, there were a number of programs to update and life extend older Nationals. The two most common upgrades were replacing the original Leyland 510 engines with Volvo power units, and also replacement of things like bell pushes, flooring and step edges along with painting grab poles to bring them up to the latest DPTAC (pronouned "dip-tak") standards for accessibility (as said above, the National was already pretty good in that regard). Fitting better heating systems was also common. Some also included bodywork changes, particularly updated headlight clusters. The most radical was the "Greenway" from East Lancs Coachbuilders, which as well as new engines, stripped them down to the shell and replaced the body panels, giving a modern appearance (usually combined with an "Irish Plate" which unlike standard UK number plates doesn't have an obvious year, so to most people it looks like a new bus). These were particularly common in London, the two biggest operators being London Transport for their "Red Arrow" services in central London, and Greenline who operated in the suburbs and beyond. One of my local operators, Midland Fox (now Arriva Midlands) gained quite a number of the old Greenline Greenways and kept them well into the 2000s.
Hi Jeffrey, As an American making a video about a British bus you did very well, but you probably were not aware of the National's biggest flaw, the awful Leyland 510 engine, which was probably the worst engine ever produced by Leyland. The Mark 2 had the Leyland 680 engine , which was one of Leyland's best engines or the TL11 which was developed from the 680. The National was one of the first buses in the UK to have full air suspension and it did lean alarmingly on bends and corners, yet another flaw. They were easy to drive with a good driving position. .
Hello! Thank you for the extra information on the National!! Unfortunately, I wasn't really aware of the 510 engine....an oversight on my part, I guess. Well, I tried. Additionally, I do recall that one National was fitted with a Detroit Diesel engine in a test, and it sounded just like an American GM New Look bus....I once saw a video of it, but can't recall which bus company did this test. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein you might be interested to learn that Perth Western Australia ran several Leyland B21s with GM 6-71s which were all sold off to a family run bus operator in Sydney which enabled me to ride in a couple. They were withdrawn and sold early by TransPerth due to high fuel consumption!
Hi Jeffrey, Just as a matter of interest, as a bus mechanic I worked on one of the very first Leyland National's when working for Cumberland Motor Services in the 1970's. Reg. No. ERM35K. 😊
I love the sound of the National 1s the "Clack Clack Clack Clack" sound and I swear Some of the East Kent Drivers would wait until people were walking behind the bus then put their foot down and Napalm them LoL! The amount of times I was covered in exhaust from a national I've lost count! If you want to learn about more British Buses there is another channel on RUclips called JakeSCOC he does loads of stuff from Classic Bus Histories to different "Bus Bits"! Loved this video thanks
@@edbridges1164 I would not say they had a clack clack clack sound more a phut phut phut due to the weird injrctor sealing on the 510 engine. That was if they could start from cold as the cold start rarely worked and the air throttle meant cold stargting at idle throttle was the norm.
@@AlunDutfield true I've watched a video of a bunch of South Riding Nationals starting from cold and let's just say the sky around them certainly wasn't clear! LoL! The National 2s were an Oddity to East Kent they had the ex Demonstrator "Q255GRW" and Stagecoach bought one in I think a "JCK" the National 2s seemed to not smoke as much! The National 1s could be Heavy Smokers! I believe the "Clack Clack" sound was the Fan Belt at the back
When I was going out with a girl who lived three miles away from me, I used to hope there was a National on the last Blackwood. I could hear the turbo whine in time to get onto the bus stop.
As a former NBC manager I well remember the horror with which many of us greeted the National. In its early days the engineers were terrified by its complexity and fuel consumption, the drivers unnerved by how light it was to drive and the passengers alarmed by how fast it could be thrown around by thoughtless drivers. However, everyone could see that it was a quantum leap in terms of ergonomic design, the engineers soon tamed its worst design faults, the drivers soon adapted, and it set the standard for a generation of new buses. It was originally intended to last 12 years, but in the event, many ran for 25 years, often retrofitted with DAF, Volvo or Gardner engines. The real reason it failed to gain wide acceptance outside NBC, or in export markets, is that many operators prefer to support local coachbuilders, and many countries specify a minimum percentage of local content (usually the body), which was not available with an integral vehicle.
A lot of the early development ended up being done in the field by NBC engineers rather than by Leyland. The phase 2 largely copied the revisions on Northern General 4441.
Very well done feature. The shorter roof pod was introduced in 1975 during the first National's production run ready for the phase 2 of the National 1 in 1976 which addressed issues like weight distribution by relocating the batteries in the front overhang under the driver. Four gearbox options were offered. Four or five speed electro - pneumatically operated semi automatic gearbox or a fully automatic version of those. A ZF two speed full automatic transmission was also offered but rarely taken up, Melbourne with 30 ZF examples.
The bus of my childhood, I lived in Midland Red territory and my local garage had quite a few, I can still hear the clatter of the 510 engine, the buses went on to live long lives with the Greenaway project by East Lancs, where a bus was stripped to its main skeleton then re-panelled to update it, also you forgot to mention the B21 which was basically a National Chassis which could be bodied by other body builders, once again a fantastic video, well presented, thank you
Hello! Thanks for the additional info! If there's something interesting abou the Greenway or B21, it may make a good video in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember these! I also recall the Leyland Lynx, which was the successor to this and the window issue was quite cleverly designed with the same length all the way from front to back but with added decals at the back, so the windows could be lower at the front. They also sounded very distinct! I remember when they were replaced and still miss them as they were kind of amazing vehicles. The ones I used to ride were Cardiff Bus/Bws Caerdydd, and some were Rhondda and Caerphilly Transport. My father used to drive these for Cardiff Bus and later Bebbs, along with Optare Clippers and Leyland Olympians & Titans. :D
@@jamesfrench7299 That is very cool! :D I also remember that when I lived in the Ffynon Taff area, there was a company called IBT, or Islwyn Borough Transport, and they used to run Leyland Leopards. They were a baby blue/white combination and although a bit of a nightmare to get onto as a kid, they were literally coaches, so they were ridiculously comfortable. I also recall the engine on those was very unique in that it sounded amazing! And the Leyland Olympian was also one of my favourites as they had some amazing turbo-whine. Absolutely amazing old beasts. :D
Thank you for your informative and interesting analysis of our quaint little bus. I'm quite personally touched that anyone from overseas would not only give this most unusual of vehicles "the time of day", but do so with a fondness and respect that you clearly did. Flawed... yes, most certainly. British automotive history is littered with such examples of "flawed" automotive products. The Leyland National. The Rover SD1. The Austin Allegro.... I could go on... The thing is, whilst these vehicles and their like were all a bit... well, rubbish... they were OUR rubbish and we loved them. They were part of our lives, our families. I still remember that on Sundays, the kitchen table would be used for Sunday lunch then a quick tidy-up so my dad could finish the cylinder head rebuild and get to work in the morning. I still carry WD40 in my car to this day because my dad did to blow out the distributor when it rained heavily. We have a car with a name and it's part of our family... I've repaired it far more times than most ordinary people would have, but that car has memories with our children. It's in family photographs. These vehicles, whilst being a bit rubbish take on an almost human quality and I think that the National could be qualified in this too. It has faults like a human. Boring bland machines don't have faults, they get on with doing their job, day after day... relentlessly... But, you take an old Austin Allegro or mid range Austin Maestro and it's almost like owning a pet with learning difficulties. It's not particularly "good" at anything, but you love it all the same and enjoy spending time with it. My current daily is a Range Rover P38, the family jalopy is a Rover 75 Tourer and I have a Range Rover Classic which is perpetually broken and occasionally works for fun. Long live rubbish vehicles, and all who sail in them 😅
Hello! Thank you for your very nice comment, it is much appreciated! I always like the way the original Nationals looked! So I really wanted to do this video. And thank you for all of the memories! Very interesting. Thank you so much for watching!!
I remember as a child born in the 1970s that the yellow version, as shown in the pics in the beginning of the video, was used for a short time in The Hague region (Holland, Europe). They seemed very solid to me compared to the noisy and wobbly, but comfortable dutch standard busses. I read that a big problem were slipping wheels, it could be an excuse to protect the Dutch bus industry which was flourishing in those days. But very nice to see your video Jeffrey! The Dutch standard busses had their own distinguished designs, like the British and American had. In Europe the designs have evolved to a boring standard windtunnel design, the same as has happened with cars.
Hello! Glad you liked the video, and thanks very much for the added info on Dutch buses! If you think European bus designs have become boring, just look at the American designs - nothing like the older GM New Look "Fishbowl" buses, or even the RTS are designed today - and today's buses are not very inspiring at all! Thanks very much for watching!!
Dude, I drove both the semi-auto Mk 1 around 1978/9, and the Mk 2 fully auto when it first came out, for Bristol Omnibus (publicly owned corporation run bus company, I learned on a Bristol FLF with a 'crash box', great fun). The Mk 1 was weird to drive; the steering was assisted, but not self-centring, in fact it often felt harder to pull back from full lock than getting there in the first place. It took some adjusting to. The engine was SMALL, with a turbo, the idea being that it would be economical to run. Sadly, as little as 4 mpg (Imperial, of course!) meant they were often governed down to where the turbo hardly spun up, with 6 mpg, but terrible acceleration. They crashed and rattled a lot, the older Bristol REs were much nicer to drive (and less 'crashy') even with no power steering. The Mk 2 was not much better. They had a slightly larger engine, but were also governed quite hard, so that on certain hills - Rownham Hill, plus one in Portishead - left in auto they surged ahead in 2nd, lurched into 3rd, but the torque couldn't pull it and so it dropped straight back to 2nd. For about half a mile... You could hold it back in 2nd, but it was so slow. Nobody liked them much. Sometime later one or two were adapted to run on railway tracks! They were really rubbish then!! But thanks for the memory prompt (-:)~
Hello! Wow, thanks for all of that info...kind of justifies the video, LOL. Too bad I didn't know these details, I would have added it to the video. Thanks for watching!!!
You've echoed what I've said elsewhere, the REs were much nicer to drive. They also reminded me of the Royal Blue coaches we used to catch to Bournemouth in the 60s with their evocative sound. Ours still had the £, s, d markings on the money tray. I also passed my manual test on an FLF. My instructor on W&D showed us how to change gear once on the move without using the clutch by getting the revs right. Also that even in top gear, with your foot off the pedal, they will still chug along at a very low speed on the flat due to the torque of the engine. Lovely, purring tickover sound.
The National was the first UK bus product to have roll-over and frontal impact testing - there were no rules, no equivalent of NCAP or Euro NCAP. Some of the research was done with ECW bodied Bristol RE's a lighter single decker than the Leyland National. The work was carried out by the Cranfield Impact Centre (located in what is now Cranfield University), using early forms of finite element analysis. This work was fed into the Leyland National design, as well as other Leyland bus designs in the 1970s. Roof collapse in roll over had been a growing issue, causing this work to be commissioned. Of course, this was part of the government funded bus programme, a system that Leyland and the brands it owned by the late 1960s - it's own name plus AEC, Bristol, Daimler and so on - which was removed in the early 1980s in a move to 'free market economics'. An operator in effect had to pay more to buy a non-approved body / chassis combination under the previous system. The Leyland National competed with the Bristol RELL and RELH in the UK market, but then in 1980 Leyland decided to close the Bristol factory. The sole product - the double deck Olympian - was transferred to Lillyhall. The Leyland National also had the infamous '500' engine with monolock design, which had huge potential but was put into mass production before durability testing was complete. The result was huge warranty costs right across the Leyland empire - it was superceded by more reliable Leyland designs. This approach to product development was the primary reason for some of the mistakes.
I remember this bus with affection. I caught the bus to school in the early '70s and it replaced what seemed like ancient stock. When one appeared, everyone at the bus stop was much happier to see it rather than an old bus. This was quiet, quick, comfortable and felt roomy without being too stuffy, even when full. The biggest difference was how smooth it felt with a lovely engine sound and seamless gearchanges. Modern buses really don't seem that different from it over 50 years later, but it was a step change from what came before it.
One of those lovely memories to chuckle at ! These remind me of the Dennis dart a little, soon there will only be quiet clean low emission and electrics, I know that's good but it was nice to have louder raucous diesel engines, very soon we won't have the old Renault diesels anymore , the new electrics are very nice though ! .
It is fascinating and refreshing to hear a person in North America talking about British buses with such enthusiasm and authority. Jeffrey sounds like my husband with an American accent!
Hi. As I said the other day my dad worked at Leyland motors in the 40s and 50s. It employed over 30.000 people all those years ago. Now about 1200. The main factory is in Farington just outside Leyland. Then there was the North works where Morrissons supermarket is now. Chassis assembly where my dad worked. The South works which is now a big car park and the Leyland museum. There was a massive works canteen on Thurston Road which linked the South and North works together. The shopping street. Hough Lane was built between the North and South works. The canteen has long gone and now houses. The spurrier works in Farington and a new factory is now Leyland motors. There was another site off Pilling Lane Chorley which is now a housing estate with the roads named after Leyland trucks and buses. Fishwick buses was based on Tuer Street for over a hundred years. Quarter of mile away from the North works. Which part of the USA are you from?
Hello! Very interesting to hear about Leyland - I always like to hear about the history of these manufacturers. Would make a good video! I'm in New York City. Thanks for watching!
A very interesting video, the National was forced on the fleets of the National Bus Company with a choice of red or green livery. In the 90s quite a lot of Nationals were re bodied by a company called Willowbrook using the original frames, replacing steel outside panels with aluminium. The National 2 was a much better bus but it came too late. I much appreciate the time and trouble you take to make these videos. 🏴
Yes! The National made its debut not too long after the NBC came into being. It's unfortunate that all those great liveries were replaced with either poppy red or leaf green. I think the Lynx had replaced the National, from what I have read. Thanks again for your informative comments!!
Willowbrook never touched Nationals. It was East Lancs who did the Nationals, known as the Greenway. Willowbrook were more well known for rebodying Leopards, mostly with the Warrior for bus work, but also the Crusader as a Coach. Unlike the Greenways which were pretty successful, Willowbrook's rebuilds didn't last long since Willowbrook bodies were rustbuckets, and the Leopard wasn't great for bus work due to it's high floor. Funnily I actually work on the site of the former Willowbrook factory, now a retail park.
As a former bus driver, i had the pleasure of driving the Leyland National for 3 years. They were a bus drivers dream. Always had to bear in mind the long overhang at the back. They were a very comfortable bus to drive. The power steering made it a dream. In fact, sometimes, the steering was just a bit too light at times. The only real problem with them, was the thermostat. They would often fail. Heating on in the summer, heating off in the winter. Nothing as a driver you could do about it. The gearbox was first class. The setup we had, was that we could leave the gearbox in fully automatic, or we could change manually. Passengers used to love travelling on these buses, as they were very smooth, with a nice soft suspension.
When the National first came out I remember a driver (probably transferred from a Bristol RE) complaining that "It goes very well in a straight line, especially when you don't want it to!" The RE had a Rear Engine as the name suggests, but the gearbox was mounted ahead of the axle, which gave a much better weight balance. The National had the engine and gearbox behind the axle and without many passengers it could lift its front wheels and lose steering. As a passenger they were very smooth and refined except for the clouds of black smoke, but I preferred the REs especially with Gardner engines. Excellent buses, no wonder Leyland bought them and closed them down. My all-time favourite was the RE coach with the high floor, high speed axle and air suspension, like running down the M1 on a magic carpet.
As I live in Leyland who's Father-in-law worked on the National, this was a very interesting watch. During the late 80s, 90s and 2000s I used to see JS Fishwick Nattionals across Leyland on 111 and 113 service to Preston after marrying a Leyland girl, good memories, thank you.
In the West Midlands county, we still had the Leyland National on several local routes here well into the 1990s, and I think early 2000s. I loved riding them. Enjoyed this great perspective of our buses from an overseas enthusiast! Very enlightening, interesting & educational! Thanks for sharing!
And there was the infamous Pacer - a commuter train based on a National bus body on a chassis based on what had been a 4-wheeled rail research chassis. Developed in the 1980s as a cheap stop gap for British Rail - still in service in the early 2020s. So bad that many people ended up 'loving' it - uncomfortable, noisy, but it worked. Formally known as the class 140 to 144s.
Great video. In the early '70s, I used to take the bus to school and back. One afternoon, I was waiting at the bus stop when a 'Midland Red' Leyland National appeared. I had never seen anything like it. Compared with the BMMO S17 (single-decker) or D9 (double-decker) buses that I was used to, this was like a space-ship.
Hi everyone, just to let you know the Jamaica 🇯🇲 Omnibus Service (JOS) purchased 160 Leyland National (MK1) buses back in the 70's (1973-1976 approximately) These were the N buses from N1 to N160. The first 10 units were semiautomatic and the rest were full automatic. However from the start, those buses were not suitable for the tough and hot Jamaican conditions. Furthermore the mechanics had a hard time maintaining them and parts were hard to come by. Therefore they had to change to a different brand of buses. They bought Albion Clydesdale and Guy Victory(approximately 100 units).
Hi Jeff, thanks for your reply. There's one more thing I left out about those buses. Because of the vandalism in that country, the passenger seats were being cut up. Therefore JOS had no choice but to order those 160 units with TOUGH FIBREGLASS seats.
I loved Leyland Nationals as a kid - the seemed so much faster than the other ones, or at least certainly sounded faster! I think the irony of their design is that BL did loads of testing in extreme environments - the arctic and deserts, plus wind tunnels etc, but the one thing they didn't do was to test the prototypes in real- life day to day bus operation! So there were lots of snags, and the engine choice of the 501 engine was probably a mistake. On the plus side, the body design probably was a complete success. The mk2 version with the 0680 engine and lots of issues fixed was a seriously impressive bus, but it came too late and they didn't sell very many.
An interesting addition to the National's story, Jeffrey - thanks. These buses were a regular feature throughout my childhood in North-West England in the 70s, taking me to and from school, out and about in and around the town I grew up in, excursions out into the countryside with my parents, etc, so I'll always have a soft spot for them 😊
6:22 a Canberra ACTION bus. They were already phasing them out in '86. I remember they had semi automatic gearshift to the right of the steering wheel. I always thought they were quirky and interesting busses.
Great insight in the development of the model, I have fond memories in the late 80's and into the mid 90's of travelling on Leyland Nationals on a regular basis as a kid. Yorkshire Traction who where based in South Yorkshire had a fleet of them and they served our village from Stocksbridge to Barnsley. Remember the semi-auto gearbox and the battle the drivers had getting up Lowe Lane to Stainborough, We sat at the back and there would be smoke coming up through the panel in the floor where the engine was. There was a Leyland National that crashed in Sheffield into the Ponds Forge swimming baths when they where under construction in the early 90's, Some pictures can be found online showing the bus and the damage done to it.
If you were going to travel in a single deck bus, during the 1970's and 1980's, then you know that it was most likely to be a Leyland National. During the 1980's Crosville converted some of their Nationals, by replacing the Leyland engine for a Gardener engine.
We had these in Canberra, Australia back in the 70s. 17 built in the UK and 54 built in Australia. Our bus service, ACTION, had three covered bus depots for overnight parking but these buses could only park in one because the air-con unit was too high for two depots.
@@JeffreyOrnstein Here is a link to the ACTION operating manual for the Leyland Nationals: www.archives.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/562595/Leyland_bus_manual.pdf
The very first Nationals had a serious flaw, the body would suddenly roll on the suspension when cornering, the sudden redistribution of weight made life very interesting for the driver, especially in the wet, the Goodyear Unisteel tyres they came fitted with were poor in the wet and would let go very quickly and without warning. This flaw was soon rectified by returning them to British Leyland to be retrofitted with body dampers, the front tyres were changed in the depot to Michelin Radials which made them much better in the wet, (The Goodyear tyres remained on the rear) the second-generation buses were much better, But it was only when the Mk 2 came along did we get a bus that was warm, powerful and good to drive, it was a vast improvement on the first efforts and was really a very good bus.
I liked the National They were very noisy and smoked a lot but never got stuck in snow unlike the other busses in the fleet. There was a 1 in 7 hill ( 14% ) going to work and one year the gritters were on strike. The driver said he was not sure we would make it with about a foot of snow but would try in low gear. We pushed our way through with snow up to the windscreen and made it with no problem. In later years the doors caused problems and the centre door ones had them removed, a micro switch on the engine bay door used to need a kick on the door before they would start, also the air suspension got none existent, they were pretty old by then so overall outlasted many other busses.
I was a passenger on a National that got stuck in a deep snow once. The driver put it in gear and floored it. Nothing happened and after 5 mins I got fed up and got up to tell him that merely flooring the throttle and spinning the wheels will never work. I got within a few feet of the platform when I realised how wrong I was. It came out of that drift at warp 8! Just like a kids pushalong toy when you set the wheels spinning and drop it on the ground! The driver explained that the combined effort of the wheels digging down and the heat and weight of the engine meant they acted like giant milling cutters, cutting through the snow and ice until they touched something solid. As a driver a few years ago I too got my Enviro 400 bus stuck in snow and used this technique to free it.
@@chrislee5981 Great to hear it worked. I had a driver try that with a leopard and it just burnt the tread off the tyres, with no weight of the engine over the back end, other drivers had asked eveyone to move to the back and that had worked too
Great video Jeffrery my Dad worked at the Lillyhall factory near Workington for 20 years so many happy working years there a big employer for the town of Workington still talks about his time there now at 81 years old so sad it closed in the early 1990's
Absolutely, I was about to make the same comment. The 510 engine had an unmistakeable sound, like no other. I also remember watching them start from cold, they would crank for minutes on end (there are videos of them being started on YT). I took a journey on a MK1 one recently at a bus show and the engine sound took me right back to my school days. The MK2 buses did sound more powerful and throaty, somehow less strained.
An excellent video which I thoroughly enjoyed. Good memories of these buses from my childhood in Berkshire and Buckinghamshire. It was a treat if a driver had rolled up the blind behind the cab seat so the passenger on the bench seat behind could see what was going on! Great sounding engine if incredibly smokey, wouldn't be welcome in a low emission zone today! Most had been replaced by the time I came to drive buses but I enjoyed driving a preserved example a friend owned. The rail bus equivalent has only recently been retired although some other older bus-derived classes built in the 1980s can still be found on the UK rail network. If you haven't got a copy Beyond Reality by Doug Jack is well worth a read from a Leyland insiders perspective. Other books are of course a available! I was also a great fan of the National's intended successor the 'B60' Lynx. But that's another story I guess! Keep up the good work and thank you for posting the video. Matt (from the UK)
Hello! Glad you liked it and thanks for your memories! Yes, I actually do have a copy of Beyond Reality! Great book! Maybe a video should be made of it!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hi. I live in Chorley which is 4 miles away from Leyland. I was a Taxi driver in Leyland for 23 years. My dad worked at Leyland motors which made the buses and lorries in the 1940s and 1950s. My wife's dad worked at the Leyland motors for 30 years plus and was on the team who designed and built the National. I have a friend who lives in Leyland was a mechanic at Fishwick buses for around 26 to 27 years
Being born in Leyland and raised in Lostock Hall, I remember very fondly Fishwicks' buses especially the 111 (pictured at 16.20) and 109 service from Leyland to Preston, always well presented with friendly-ish drivers! I am sure a couple of them used to play pinball with us younger passengers setting off before we were seated!!!
About the bus in the river- can't take the credit but found this comment online: The Ribble bus in the river was one belonging to their Blackburn depot. It was 457 NTC 637M and was travelling to Rochdale on their 244 Preston to Rochdale service on the afternoon of the 16th November 1984. The accident occurred very close to Rawtenstall town centre when it ran through a wall and belly flopped into the river due to excessive speed, which the driver couldn't correct. To prove the Nationals strength, no windows were broken, and the engine was still running when the rescue services arrived. It was recovered to Ribble's Burnley depot for damage assessment. It was deemed a repairable project, but due to it being nearly eleven years old, it was withdrawn from service and stripped for usable parts.
I’m not surprised the SBG (Scottish Bus Group) used the older and more reliable Leyland Leopard Alexander Y type as the default single deck bus in Scotland although some municipal bus companies such as GGPTE (Greater Glasgow Passenger Transport Executive) and LRT (Lothian Regional Transport) in Edinburgh bought some National 1s It wasn’t until the introduction of the National 2 we began to see SBG buying them. Barrhead (small town near Glasgow) independent operator McGill’s had a sizeable fleet of National 1 & 2s, even a Danish built articulated National 2 which was a partnership between Leyland & Danish coach builder DAB.
In Australia, Brisbane City Council bought about six of them around 1975/76, but never went back for more, and the small batch didn't last long. Surfside Buses on the Gold Coast was a much more satisfied customer, making the type the mainstay of their fleet from the late seventies into the eighties.
@@JeffreyOrnstein Surfside ran 39 at their peak use of the type from a handful they purchased new in 1976 and the rest second hand ones they aquired from various operators in Sydney (including ones I caught to and from school as a kid) from the mid 1980s. They scrapped most of them by 1994, selling off a few. They were the biggest privately run operator of the type in Aust. ACTION in Canberra had the largest fleet of about 70 units (20 1974 long pod ones and the rest 50 1975 build short pod ones). 20 recieved MAN motor and Voith 3 speed gearbox transplants in the late 80s as hand me downs from MAN Sl200 buses in their fleet recieving higher HP engine upgrades!
My dad was a bus driver for most of his adult life, working for the Hants & Dorset bus company. He was based in Southampton, UK and drove buses from the late 1960s to the early 2000s. The Leyland National was a big part of his bus driving story when it arrived. My brother also drove these and they both thought highly of them. I think that it was a National that my brother did a lot of damage to once. He had driven into a place that I think terminated the outbound part of his route. It involved swinging the bus in between two large stone piers, then stopping and reversing out again. During the reverse, he just kept the steering lock exactly where it was when he swung in and floored it (the Nationals were quite spritely). Unfortunately this didn't work at all. Somehow the exit swing was different to the entry. The front of the bus hit the pier very hard, right by the folding door. This ripped the entire front coachwork off the bus. The first thing he noticed was that the glass fell vertically down leaving him with more than one way to exit the vehicle. Needless to say, he was in big trouble over this.
My understanding is that the Leyland National failed in London because the rear engine design overheated badly in standing traffic, kinda a no-no in central London. London Transport had purchased or had options on a huge fleet, which was passed on to other operators. The mid to late seventies I lived in Redditch in Midland Red territory. You could certainly sense how light the steering was even as a passenger. Redditch was a "new town" and had dedicated bus highways covering half the town. Nationals seemed in their element and were really nippy on the dedicated roads, and the drivers would really push them.
Not so. London Transport had taken 633 AEC Swift 691 and 833 Swift 505, their shortcomings became legendary, in 1973 with the last Swift 505 a mere 18 months old LT took six Metro-Scania and six Leyland Nationals (both short wheelbase) for evaluation. The eventual new-purchased fleet of Nationals was 502, with the last 46(the National IIs) replacing the last Swift 691s. Unlike the AEC single decks the National did well in London and 43 were converted by East Lancs into Greenways to update the Red Arrow commuter services. LT also bought three long Nationals second hand, one became a Greenway while the other two were used on mobility services, with a wheelchair ramp at the centre door.
Oh nice. I used to drive them when I first started driving coaches. We had some second hand ones our company bought. They were ok, a bit noisy, but that's why they put the engine at the back nearer the passengers! Not sure about the heating as you mentioned in the video, it never seemed to work if I remember right. The engines used to explode though, throwing piston rods out the side, resulting in a trail of oil down the road. Someone told me way back, it was because they designed it with the engine laying on it's side to keep the floor height low, but the oil used to pool to one side going round corners. Also the simple riveted construction enabled them to be repaired quickly in a bus garage so they didn't need to go away to a specialist bodyworks place, quick and simple keeping the vehicle on the road earning money. Anyway a nice look back at these numerous buses. All the best Dave.
Hello! Thank you for your interesting comment on your experience driving the Nationals! Guess it had both good points and...not so good. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Early examples had a problem as the oil sump was wrongly designed , feeding oil through the turbocharger on left turns. Revised baffles from mid-1973 put an end to that though.
I’ve just found this video. What the heck is an American doing being interested in this thing, which were so ubiquitous in the 70s and 80s and made so many of us feel travel sick on hot days, being swung about on the back seats, with that rumbling engine beneath? United Counties Number 29 Luton Bus Station to Dunstable via Marsh Farm, or 31 Leagrave to Luton Airport via Marsh Farm. The memories are flooding back. Thanks for a great video.
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video! If you think this is odd, wait until you see my next video....an American doing a topic on a British bus so obscure, it sure will be even stranger. Hopefully you'll stay tuned! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
They were a pretty decent modern bus in the day and while the engine carried on a bit noise wise, it was actually a very smooth running unit which hummed through the cabin rather than vibrate. I always found them impressive in person.
I remember these in Brighton, as a kid in the 70s. A kind of turqouise blue. Older friends would rock up at the bus depot in Lewis Road to try and get a free, inflated, tyre inner tube to take down the beach as a floating ring. Such great memories. How have I become 53!!!!
Belgrade, Yugoslavia, use to have Leyland buses. They were known as having misterious semi-automatic transmission with no clutch. They also were had to kept running in the winter over night, as if engine drops to low temperature, it would not start.
I remember them being trialled by SELNEC. They were numbered in the EX series along with some Metro-Scanias and a couple of Mercedes. The National became the standard single decker for SELNEC and GMT.
Yeah, and they were absolute sheds. Worked on them in the 80s and hated them. My biggest memory of them was the windscreens jumping up and down by an inch or so. The door shear pins were another pain in the arse job, and probably one of the worst manifold systems for getting them sealed properly. Anti roll bar bushes were another part we were constantly replacing.
JYO751N was originally one of the Midland Bank mobile banks, later converted for passenger use and re-engined with a Volvo unit. I drove it in the late 90s and it was unusual for having a fully automatic gearbox, compared to the usual semi-automatic. It felt like a new bus, so tight and little clatter.
When i was a coachbuilder in the 80.s i used to repair smashed up Nationals quite often.They are literally like a Meccano kit and were so easy compared to other buses in our company like Bristols and Daimlers.
Mate, I tell Ya: talking about the heating brought back so many bad winter memories in a popsicle called bus. Although we rode only M.A.N(Büssing), Mercedes or Kässbohrer Setras to school. But they were all old and worn (in the 80´s) exept that one guy with his Setra. That bus was top class, it had carpet and was actually warm(!) inside. The buses used for us school kids were all wrecks back in the days... One MAN lost its steering in the turn circle. Hydraulic broke, it lost all its oil. Two hours later the driver, our vickar and a tech from the shop next door got it working enough to do the tour. The bus ended as an office on a used car lot, it was rusted thru all the way... Today buses look like shit. Thanks a lot for a trip down memory lane!
Leyland National Green Crosville buses in Wrexham. We lived on a bus route in a village on the outskirts of the town. The sound of this bus I heard every hour I was at home when I was growing up. Getting on the bus in Southsea Wrexham to go to Rhyl was £1 day return. 👍👍👍
I remember the very distinctive sound these buses made and I remember they used to vibrate a fair bit when idling in traffic or at stops. Thanks for the film.
I remember regularly travelling in those Nationals when commuting to college with my fellow students. Our preferred raised section at the rear was right over the engine and it would get really hot there during the summer.
i did my apprenticeship working on leyland buses in perth western australia,there was only one national delivered to perth,it had the 510 turbo and the experimantal/prototypre analog computer comtrolled hydraulically shifter wilson box,it was later converted to a standard semi auto,the MTT instead chose the B21 with the 2 stroke detroit diesel and allison auto
Great video Jeff 😊 I can remember riding on these buses as a child 😀 and the transport museum in Leyland is well worth a visit 😀 keep up the great work 👍
One of the last uses of these in Lincoln UK, and with 'Roadcar' of the time (now Stagecoach) was the 'Economy Link' busses. Nearly 30 years ago I used to catch them into town to go to school. 30 pence for a return ticket! It only had one front entrance so was maybe the B model. Recognised the lights and shape instantly. They were noisey and smelled of diesel and machinery and also smelled damp lol. Proper bus.
Here in South Africa I remember riding in a Leyland Kudu in the 70's. The bus was designed for the conditions - high chassis and 68 seated and 17 standing passenger's. No coach style seats here - just bench seats.
I hated driving the National. The 501 engine was very unreliable and noisy. The heating system was poor blowing warm air down from the roof, hot air rises doesn't it? They were overcomplicated, we often had to kick the engine cover to get the engine to start. There was a cheap and nasty safety switch behind the cover that often failed. I am glad I have a 1963 front engined double decker, a superb bus that does 10mpg.
Hello! Thank you so much for your experience with the National! Very interesting!!! I guess it really was a flawed design, LOL. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The ventilation system was designed so that a curtain of warm air would keep the windows free of condensation, and is much less fierce than floor mounted radiators. Modern air conditioning systems are always ceiling mounted after all
@@AndreiTupolev The heating was crap. I well remember being too hot and cold at the same time. And the basic bus seats had no padding and a stupid bar that dug in your back.
Was staring at that bendy bus thinking....is that Sheffield? It was....they were still in use into early 2000s I think. Flawed but interesting pretty much sums up Leyland! Thanks for the bus trip down memory lane.
I remember these as a child, the national 2 looked out of this world compared to the buses they replaced by my local operator which came from the 1950s .Great video
From what i can recall, the National was not helped by the fact that it's main customer, the National Bus Company, apparently did not want them! They would have preferred to continue buying the Bristol RE. The National was considerably heavier and cost more to run (if I recall correctly, it was also heavier than the VR double decker). However, they were prevented from buying the RE, due to a policy that they would be export only ( apart from Northern Ireland, due to a job creation requirement that buses would have locally made bodies, which ruled out the National, because of it's unit construction). By this time Bristol was pretty much owned by Leyland and the decision was made to encourage sales of their new bus. Even so, I remember that my local bus company initially bought very few Nationals, instead tending to buy the Bristol LH, though they did buy more later.
Fascinating. As a school kid I used to take buses every day and Fishwick were the best because they drove faster than the competition, Ribble. The sight of the green bus when I was waiting at the bus stop was always great because it would be an exciting ride.
As I born in Hong Kong and I always took the bus built by UK on that time before I came to US in 1996, even though Leyland National had never been served in this city and never had a chance to have a ride on it, I still think that it is one of the classical buses build by Leyland, along with Lynx and Olympian.
I remember going to school on these when they were introduced - brand new. The back seats were definitely preferred for us kids as it was difficulty to see out of the front ones!
Great video, well done. The National was a horrible bus to ride on as a passenger. It was OK if you sat at the back, but as this was usually for smoking passengers you would have other issues to worry about. I didn't mind having one on a short hop in to town, but if I was going on a longer trip and a National appeared I would always find something else to do for 20 or 30 minutes and hope the next service produced a Bristol VR or Leyland Leopard. The coach seated variants were more acceptable, but they lacked the plastic shield between the lower and upper decks which was present on the bus seated ones in order to stop the flying passenger issues discussed in your video. Most operators at the time really wanted a full air-suspension version of the Bristol RE, but as Leyland owned Bristol, they saw to it that the Bristol RE was put out of production to force operators hands. The only exception to this being in Northern Ireland where they flat refused to buy anything but RE's for suburban use and so a limited production run had to be kept open for them to stop losing that business. The National's also had a tendency to twist when going around sharp corners, most notable when looking in your wing mirrors... I've always liked Leyland vehicles, the Leopard (even though brakes appeared to be option...) and the Olympian which was a lovely smooth bus to drive. However I was glad to see the back of Nationals.
I"m very glad you liked the video! Very interesting to hear your experience with the National!! And yes, the RE was a great bus! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Re the Ribble National in the river. From the buildings etc. I believe the photo is taken in Rawtenstall (Lancashire). To the right, the building with the curved window is on the right side of Bury Rd., with the railway station just out of shot nearer the camera on the same side. The wooden building is still there (now 'Bread Shed') as is the footbridge. To the left of the footbridge is a supermarket (now Tesco). Check out what it looks like now on Google Street View!
Hello! Thank you for the information!!! There was another comment on the location, and I've added it to the description. I'll check what is written, and may add this if it gives more description to it, and I'll give you credit. If that's ok with you. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I forgot to mention in my previous post. Some more information came to light re my request for information on the National in the river. A reply stated "I have it written down as 16th November 1984,fleet number 457 (NTC437M)" Someone else also put a colour photo of it as well.
I used to ride these crosville buses as a kid in the 70s and 80s. Most buses were replaced by smaller Mercedes in the early 80s, but some of these, plus double deckers still operated for longer routes here in North Wales, Britain.
I remember well travelling on the Leyland National as a young man and was struck by it's modern design and the smoothness of its transmission and engine. The pod on the rear of the early versions was to draw in air for cooling the engine and for heating of the interior. It was a shame it didn't continue as a passenger bus but continued as a train in the north of the UK known as a Pacer train using the same body and engine but with a redesigned transmission and a twin axle boggie at either end of the carriage.
Avdel rivets (Avdeloks) were used extensively in the Leyland commercial vehicles and in the military Landrover 1Tonne body. There are still a common feature in commercial body builds. The bendy bus experiments were enabled by a change in the Construction & Use Regulations around 1980 which allowed for longer and articulated single deck buses. Buses got progressively longer throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s culminating in todays 13.6m bodies with articulation acceptable. Early articulated buses had to remain able to move with the 'trailer' sectio removed. This was later amended and most recent design push from the rear section.
So what were the 'amazing flaws'? You seem to have skipped over that! I remember these busses as a kid and they seemed very modern (at the time) and comfortable.
I used to get one to school in the 70s… I would sometimes miss the first bus so I could get a National… which were brand new at the time! 😂 Owen in the UK. Very informative video… thanks
I grew up when the national were in use, and when I got my psv license I got to drive one. However, the one I drove was greenway national. These apparently were rebodied as this was a cheaper option and a testament to how good the chassis must have been. Personally I wasn’t keen on them to drive. It was possible to run out of air very quickly, meaning breaking could be challenging. More so when shunting. I think the ones we had in our yards had Volvo b10 engines too
Another great video Jeffery. Unless I missed something here, wouldn’t it have made sense to build a single deck bus based on the long proven double deckers that were being built in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
Glad you liked it - I think the concept of the National was different than the standard double deck chassis of the day, being modular...different construction methods used for variation, would be one reason why they didn't go for a more proven type of a bus. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein There had been single deck Daimler Fleetlines, performance was pedestrian, drivers disliked them as the driving position was too low and bodybuilderws failed to engineer a durable enough structure. The Leyland Panther and AEC Swift used Leopard and Reliance units in a frame and with a front axle derived from the Atlantean, Panthers you have covered already.
Peter Wyngard had a pretty extraordinary life. He actually grew up in a Japanese concentration camp during the war, which was more than what Jason King could claim...
Hello! Yes, it is the body used for the Pacers. I've actually done a video on LEV-2, a railbus that had a National body that was tested in the USA. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Thanks for this, one of the most informative videos I've found on the National so far. Great job. Sure, the National gets criticism, what doesn't, but it does have it's band of followers over here in the UK. I love riding them at meets when possible, and enjoy that characteristic diesel knock "crackle".
That you for this insight into these busses, I remember them on our local services, replacing the AEC Merlin/Swifts (SM) and even RF's on some routes. They had a very distinctive sound especially when sitting in the back and the ride in the seats behind the rear wheels could be quite violent on sharp corners.
I used to go to school on one of these in germany as part of the british forces on rhine. They were much beloved by all of us except when we broke down at least once a week and they were replaced by shiny new volvo busses. We much preferred the old leylands.
This is new to me. I wonder if you will do a UK failure of a bus - but one I am very fond of, being from the area that some of them ran in (Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, UK). I ask for the... Albion Lowlander! The first bus I remember from my childhood (Closely followed by Leyland Atlantean's with the infamous "Kissing" Roe bodies - they genuinely looked like they wanted to kiss you! - and WYPTE'S Scania Metropolitan's). The Lowlander was a low-height variant of the highly successful Leyland Titan. The driver compartment was slightly too small, everything was inaccessible for mechanics, the gearboxes could be temperamental and were prone to bodywork damage. But in two companies, they were loved - my native Yorkshire Woollen, where they were liked as a solid all-rounder and East Midlands, who adored them for their SUPERLATIVE hill climbing ability.
Hello! Thank you for your very interesting comment with some nice ideas! I have a few more British bus ideas myself, but I'll look into these that you mention - if I can find enough information and and if there's a really crazy angle to the story, I'll try to do it in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@highpath4776 Yes! The Wulfrunian is a bus I want to do a video on soon! I do know about it. I know I've read about the Roadliner, but have to look into it more. Thanks.
@@JeffreyOrnstein West Riding in Yorkshire had Wulfunians. They removed 4 seats from the upstairs front because the drivers complained the steering was too heavy with people sitting ahead of the front wheels. They rolled about as well and my scariest ever bus ride was on one that almost overturned on a road junction with adverse camber. It went so far over the body panels scraped the road on the drivers side and left a gouge in the road. It was caused by almost everyone being on that side of the bus. I got off the bus at the stop just after the junction and saw the damage.
@@cedarcam Thanks for this account!! I might like to use it in the video, just as a first-hand experience of riding in a Wulf. I will give you credit if you want. I only see "cedarcam", but if you want your actual name used, let me know. Or if you do not want this used, it's ok too, and I won't!
At the National Bus launch at the CV Motor Show in Earl's Court, they had a version for use in major disasters. It included several stretchers lying flat which could enter and leave via the opening rear window. It included various medical facilities, and a CCTV camera on a pole. I remember my dad reaching over and using the camera to zoom in on a woman working an adjacent stand.
Yes, you are right! It was called the Lifeliner. Didn't realized I missed that until after uploading, unfortunately. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
spent many a morning in 1986 bouncing along in packed standing room only green john fishwick & sons on my way to college from chorley to leyland. Interesting to see the 'Chorley via Euxton Lane'....that was my bus!!!
I used to ride Nationals in the Stoke-on-Trent area, operated by PMT. They replaced the old Bristol RE series. Then when I moved north they had the class 142 trains which were based on Nationals and were rickety and bounced all over the place.
I used to drive Leyland Nationals during my bus driving career. In dry conditions they were great but in wet weather they slipped and slided all over. In the early 90's Idrove a National mk 1 demonstrater which had been retro fitted with a Volvo engine and compleatly refurbished inside. Unfortuatly it was a wet day and it just spun its wheels all the time. But I think the engine was just too powerful. Great buses though,.
![The Guy Wulfrunian Story: The Edsel of British Buses? [UK Bus History]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w4W-6MkAoZE/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Guy Wulfrunian Story: The Edsel of British Buses? [UK Bus History]](/img/tr.png)
![Leyland Lynx B60 Story: The Bus in the Shadow of the Leyland National [UK Bus History]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KxU7vlow4qw/mqdefault.jpg)
The Ribble bus in the river was one belonging to their Blackburn depot. It was 457 NTC 637M and was travelling to Rochdale on their 244 Preston to Rochdale service on the afternoon of the 16th November 1984. The accident occurred very close to Rawtenstall town centre when it ran through a wall and belly flopped into the river due to excessive speed, which the driver couldn't correct. To prove the Nationals strength, no windows were broken, and the engine was still running when the rescue services arrived. It was recovered to Ribble's Burnley depot for damage assessment. It was deemed a repairable project, but due to it being nearly eleven years old, it was withdrawn from service and stripped for usable parts. Hope this is of interest.
Ah, thank you for that great info!!! Much appreciated. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnsteinI can remember seeing bits of bus parts in the river afterwards
You forgot to mention that Leyland National body side panels and roofs went into British Rail’s Class 140, 141 and 142 ‘Pacer’ rail buses
It's probably one of the best designs of buses at its time. One of the first buses to use air suspension all round, a turbo charged engine, low floor design and consideration into the drivers ease of use. Rust protection was second to none, as was build quality. Yes the 510 engine wasn't the greatest option to go for but that was it's biggest flaw. It paved the way for a new generation of bus designs used by other manufacturers and to date the only bus built in its own amazing, automated factory. I'm not biased, I look after and run 3 Mk1s and 3 Mk2s.
Hello! Thank you for your experience with the National - very interesting to hear the extra detail! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@JeffreyOrnstein it's biggest flaw was 1) the engine choice. 2) it was so forward-thinking and radical in design that bus operators didn't know how to look after them. The 6 we own, most of the original spec engine still in them, and one managed 30 years in service! New buses won't get anywhere near a service life of 30 years. We're based at lillyhall literally round the corner from the original factory and still have contact with ex leyland plant workers and management.
@@IanDunn-i8s Thanks for the info! Yes, I'm now aware of the 510 and its shortcomings...I wasn't aware of it when I made the video. So now I know!
@@JeffreyOrnsteinIn honesty the 510 wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. The fixed head scared mechanics, but it rarely gave trouble. The bottom bearings, ends and mains, were easy to change but were often neglected. I own a MK1 and have been involved with them since the year 2000 in preservation. I travelled on them from the age of 0 to 17 almost daily. They proved themselves to be a very reliable, durable and long lasting design - once operators got used to them.
It was also very noisy and spewed out black clouds, awful things really
I ran a few of these in Perth Western Australia. You had to hold the wheel tight. They would lean terribly dropping into a sweeping bend but the airbags would pump themselves up through the corner. Then, leaving the corner, they would flop the other way. I fitted 'NuWay' level valves which were much faster acting and the National went into corners like a go-kart. They had a flared fan-like exhaust and would blow clouds of black smoke at take-off. I never cured that. The rivets were a sod to drill out. The tyres had too little clearance around the wheel arch causing the tyres to get excessively hot on freeways causing regular tyre issues. The motors hung together well but the injection pumps would die. Injection pumps killed my buses off eventually. I ran out of injection pumps. They were a very good looking bus. The removeable skirts were magic. Just swap a panel with a screwdriver to repair. The door operating mechanism was problematic.
Hello! Wow, that is some experience you had with the Nationals! Thank you very much for watching!
even though they had their problems, many had long lives lasting over 25 years, a coach company in scotland ran them right up untill 2017
Hello! Interesting to hear how long some have lasted!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Yes they were very popular with second hand operators. Guess because they were easy to maintain.
The Scottish Prison Service ran three, converted into cellular accommodation for prisoner transport.
We had them in the South Wales Valley Lines until very recently 2021?, up until Transport For Wales took over the trains..
Many… meaning those that didn't have any quality problems.
A footnote to the Leyland National story - the modular body design was promoted for rail use in the UK and abroad. A number of prototype vehicles were built, leading to several fleets of (moderately unpopular) trains operating in the UK, some of which were only taken out of use relatively recently. Search for the BRE-Leyland Railbus for more information on the prototypes (including at least one that ran in the USA), British Rail Classes 140, 141 and 142 which used Leyland National body parts, and the related Classes 143 and 144 that used a similar construction but with bodies sourced from another bus manufacturer.
I grew up near Leyland and still remember seeing empty bus chassis being driven around the roads in the area, with a very cold looking driver sitting atop the frame with no bodywork to protect him from the elements! Thanks for the interesting video! :)
Hello! Thank you for the very interesting info about the National - those open chassis driving around must have been a sight to see! Yes - there were a couple of railbuses based on the National that made it to the USA - in fact, I've done a video about LEV-2, which ended up being scrapped a few years ago after suffering at a trolley museum in Connecticut! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I was going to point you to that!
The 155 and 153 Super Sprinters were also built by Leyland and use quite a bit of National construction techniques.
Duh, of course! I blame the hypnotic effect of the Pacer's 4-wheel underframes on jointed track for the memory lapse! ;)
@@JeffreyOrnstein Yes, these railbus units in the UK, was known as Pacers, having only the past few years been discontinued, and it did amaze me some of them actually ended up State Side.
They did have quite a poor ride rep, and if I remember right, one is in preservation at The Midland Railway, in Ripley, Derbyshire.
I absolutely hated them, when I had to use them on my many trips in to Yorkshire (Northern Rail).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail)
Brought back a lot of memories from my childhood in 1970s-80s Britain, did this video - thank you! Particular memories for me was visiting my Grandma on Saturdays in this bus. Unlike the big double-deckers I took everywhere else, her house on the distant new-build outskirts of Sheffield was only serviced by Nationals. I remember sitting near the front and, as a bus-obsessed kid, being rather frustrated by the very high window line - pointedly and very aptly highlighted here. A small kid sitting on those seats had no chance of seeing any street-level action through the window. Sit towards the back of the bus, you say? In the early 80s, that was where the smokers sat, and the secondhand-smoke-induced nausea from B&H chain-smokers in the rear stains yellow my memories of my regular trips to Mosborough to this day. Smoking was only banned on South Yorkshire buses - along with the rest of the UK - in 1992.
The second memory trigger was the photo of the articulated buses. As a kid, going on one of these "bendy buses" in Sheffield town centre was the highlight of a trip to town - although this probably only occurred for me a couple of times before these buses were disappeared. Only later when the idea was reintroduced (I was on such a bus just yesterday in Brussels!) did I learn that the versions you mentioned were quickly retired for very dodgy engineering whose source you explain well. As soon as I saw the first photo you show - taken in Sheffield near the Midland Railway station with the University of Sheffield Student Union's "Nelson Mandela" building in the background (a name that was still a controversial political statement in Thatcher's sanctions-resistant early-80s Britiain - and that's why they used it!) immediately brought the memories flooding back. Thatcher, of course, would have her revenge on South Yorkshire Transport's socialist mindset" of frequent and affordable public transportation, with its subsidised cheap fares and technical innovations (not all successes, as we can see), but that's a story for another day and has nothing to do with engineering.
Thank you for this video, Sir!
Wow, great comment, very detailed with lots of memories and info. Glad you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
My experience of the Leyland National in Australia, purchased in used condition by my employer. A Leyland National, fully imported, British manufacture, Headless 500ci rear engine laying on its side, it ran well but problems soon surfaced. The air filter was positioned in such a way that it could not be serviced!! It looked to me like it had never been serviced since new, also its connection to the body was never right and a gap of 25mm was present right behind the rear wheels where dirt and water could enter the filter. The engine soon began using oil so we dropped it out for repair. As I began taking it apart I could see that this motor was designed to be put together in several different ways, ie in the bus it lay on its side, in a cabover truck the exhaust manifold would be away from the driver, in a boat the flywheel would be at the other end, a brilliant design. But, they used 17mm nuts on M10 bolts making it difficult to get a spanner onto many of the bolts, but why? When the Japanese proved beyond all doubt that 14mm was sufficient to do the job!!!
There was a problem with the cooling also, maybe it is OK in Britain to recycle the warm air from the rear of the bus, through the radiator and back to the engine bay but in our climate, this is not ‘best practice’. The rear engine Bedford and the Nissan had a semicircular guard between the engine and the radiator, bringing air in through a side vent, through the radiator and out through screens in the back panels. We did the same with this one fitting a fan with the opposite pitch.
This bus was used while # 5 was off the road, the driver approached me about a strange noise that occurred on a Left turn, “Take me out and show me,” I said, so we drove around the Redbank Railway Workshops, all Left turns.
Nothing happened, she was about to go Right and back to our shop, “No, go around again,” She had to brake a little harder and swung Left at such late notice, I was standing on the step with the door open listening for this noise, looking down at the front wheel that was not turning, not even on the road, as the bus righted after the turn we got this, ‘Aeroplane touchdown noise’, arrk “That’s it,” she said. The problem, on the Left rear an Air suspension control rod had broken pushing that Air Bag fully up, while on the Right rear one of the tires was flat, at the front an anti roll bar 50mm thick was simply picking the wheel right up off the road. Ted from down under.
Wow, thanks for all of this info on your experience with the National in Australia! Very interesting!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
You can’t say the vehicle wasn’t rigid.
That's awesome. I know the PTC Vic had them but they kept one which doesn't come out.
Sydney never went near the National, preferring the Leopard
@@gregrudd6983the 0305 ran rings around them. The PTC had been looking at them when the last of the Leopards were being built.
In the mid 1980s I used to ride home from school by bus. It would usually be either an Eastern Counties Bristol VR, Bristol RE or Leyland National Mk1. The Nationals were R & S registration with short roof pods most of the time. On only a couple of occasions an early National wirh long roof pod on an L registration ran the bus service I used to get. On rare occasions did a National Mk2 with no roof pod run.
The National Mk1 with the short roof pod was my favourite. As a 10 to 13 year old I was taken by the crisp and well thought out design of the interior of the phase 2 Mk1. The long pod version had an older look to it inside I found. The noise of the Leyland 510 engine was the other thing I remember fondly. The 510 had a very distinctive clatter at idle and a memorable whirring whooshing noise as the bus pulled away. The only other bus that came close in terms of distintive engine noise for me was the London Transport MCW Metrobus double deckers I used to ride to and from university in the early 1990s. It's the National though that's my alk time favourite bus.
Hello! Thank you for your experience with the National. Very interesting! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I had to double check the name above this comment to check, this could've been typed by me. Exactly the same sentiments regarding both the National and also the Metrobus... what a sound!!
From 1969 to 1975 I worked in the Leyland Truck and Bus Central Engineering design office on various projects which included the National Bus so I feel that I must congratulate you on producing a very well informed video which includes a number of items about which even I was not aware. Nice work! I will just add that the original styling was carried out by David Bache of Rover but, at the last minute, Sir Donald Stokes the CEO decided to call in Michelotti instead to give the bus a revised look. The initial vehicle design was for three length of 10, 11 and 12 metres but, for the Michelotti redesign, these were replaced by two lengths of approximately10.3 and 11.3 metres to better match the seating pitch. The later 10.9 metre was, as you said, a hybrid of the two. The bus was originally designed to take the 680 engine and the mistaken decision to change this to the less refined 510 is suitably described in some of the other comments. The overhead heating system inevitably lead to warm heads and cold feet: a strange decision aimed at simplifying the floor design but not the best one.
Hello! Great to hear from someone who worked on the National! Interesting info on the original design of the bus. Wish I knew that when I was making the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The 500 series engine was the brainchild of Albert Fogg who had come to chief engineer at Leyland from directorship of the Motor Industry Research Association, the charitable view is he was an original thinker. Higher output Leyland 680s and 400s as well as examples with experimental turbocharger fitments had problems with cylinder head gasket failure. Dr Fogg's decision was to replace them with an engine with no cylinder head.
The 500 series was controversial in buses but disastrous in lorries. An early 700 cu in fixed head engine had worked well on the test benches and delivered the desired 260bhp with relatively light pressure turbocharging, but the Marketing people demanded a 1000kg weight for the engine coupled to a pneumocyclic gearbox, so it was downsized from 11.9 litres to 8.2. The 260 hp 511 version was at the limits of material science in regards to the environment in the combustion chambers, under certain circumstances pistons would melt.
This was at the time Volvo and Scania had just started importing lorries into the UK. Volvo's F88 had a new design of turbocharged engine, taking the opposite tack to Dr Fogg, with six individual cylinder heads, each with its own gasket.
the move from 10 11 and 12m was due to a recommendation from an international conference of city operators for a minimum width of 1421mm for doorways. this meant the longest envisaged bay made the bus 300mm too long to operate legally in the UK and most other places at the time.
@@StephenAllcroft As I recall, the 500 engine was mainly the brainchild of the then Chief Engineer for engines (I forget his name) who had previously designed a headless production petrol engine for Leyland in the 1930's. Given the horsepower-per-litre that was being demanded from the downsized 500 engine, it was an understandable route to go down since it not only removed the head gasket problem but also improved the cooling water flow around the heads and the upper cylinders. But as always, the devil was in the details and, as with the AEC V8 diesel which was developed alongside the 500, the details were bedevilled in a few areas.
One thing that helped the National last as long as it did, was that whilst not "low floor" by modern standards (due to the step inside), they were still low by the standards of many other single deckers of the period and later, and therefore gave good access even at a time true low floor buses were coming along. Add in that the air suspension could be retrofitted for kneeling, along with the wide entrance, and you've got a bus that whilst not accessible by modern standards (or even standards of the newest buses at the time) was still more accessible compared to many newer buses that were still around in the late 90s and early 2000s (and remember that for every person in a wheelchair who needs a totally flat floor and ramp, there many older or walking disabled people who will benefit from a lower step even without full wheelchair access). A company where I live ran some heavily refurbished Nationals calling them "easy access" and it's hard to dispute compared to the more modern Dennis Darts (with a higher floor) that they were running in competition with. Even when the Darts were replaced by Low Floor versions, these still lacked the wheelchair ramps found on modern buses, so by todays standards their accessibility was not perfect.
The heating system issues with the National are something that have plagued British buses for a long time, keeping them warm in winter and cool in summer, and many radical ideas have failed. Most recently the issue has been more about cooling in summer, where there has been a tendency to remove opening windows in favour of "air cooling" which can't cope on hot days. Ultimately though the approach taken with the National, combined with old school floor level radiators, has proven to be pretty effective and has seen widespread use by many manufacturers. Perhaps the most obvious was Optare, who pretty much revived and improved the National's original system to good effect, giving their Delta (and variants) and replacement Excel, the same iconic rear pod as the National.
Finally, towards the end of their lives, there were a number of programs to update and life extend older Nationals. The two most common upgrades were replacing the original Leyland 510 engines with Volvo power units, and also replacement of things like bell pushes, flooring and step edges along with painting grab poles to bring them up to the latest DPTAC (pronouned "dip-tak") standards for accessibility (as said above, the National was already pretty good in that regard). Fitting better heating systems was also common. Some also included bodywork changes, particularly updated headlight clusters. The most radical was the "Greenway" from East Lancs Coachbuilders, which as well as new engines, stripped them down to the shell and replaced the body panels, giving a modern appearance (usually combined with an "Irish Plate" which unlike standard UK number plates doesn't have an obvious year, so to most people it looks like a new bus). These were particularly common in London, the two biggest operators being London Transport for their "Red Arrow" services in central London, and Greenline who operated in the suburbs and beyond. One of my local operators, Midland Fox (now Arriva Midlands) gained quite a number of the old Greenline Greenways and kept them well into the 2000s.
Hello! Thank you for your detailed comment on the features of the National - very interesting info. Thanks for watching!
Hi Jeffrey, As an American making a video about a British bus you did very well, but you probably were not aware of the National's biggest flaw, the awful Leyland 510 engine, which was probably the worst engine ever produced by Leyland. The Mark 2 had the Leyland 680 engine , which was one of Leyland's best engines or the TL11 which was developed from the 680. The National was one of the first buses in the UK to have full air suspension and it did lean alarmingly on bends and corners, yet another flaw. They were easy to drive with a good driving position.
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Hello! Thank you for the extra information on the National!! Unfortunately, I wasn't really aware of the 510 engine....an oversight on my part, I guess. Well, I tried.
Additionally, I do recall that one National was fitted with a Detroit Diesel engine in a test, and it sounded just like an American GM New Look bus....I once saw a video of it, but can't recall which bus company did this test.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein you might be interested to learn that Perth Western Australia ran several Leyland B21s with GM 6-71s which were all sold off to a family run bus operator in Sydney which enabled me to ride in a couple.
They were withdrawn and sold early by TransPerth due to high fuel consumption!
@jamesfrench7299 not many full size buses around with good fuel consumption lol
@@jamesfrench7299 An American engine guzzling fuel? LOL.
@@JeffreyOrnstein not helped by the Allison gearboxes which had lots of slip on takeoff.
Hi Jeffrey, Just as a matter of interest, as a bus mechanic I worked on one of the very first Leyland National's when working for Cumberland Motor Services in the 1970's. Reg. No. ERM35K. 😊
Hello! Very interesting to hear your experience with the National! Thanks for watching!
I love the sound of the National 1s the "Clack Clack Clack Clack" sound and I swear Some of the East Kent Drivers would wait until people were walking behind the bus then put their foot down and Napalm them LoL! The amount of times I was covered in exhaust from a national I've lost count! If you want to learn about more British Buses there is another channel on RUclips called JakeSCOC he does loads of stuff from Classic Bus Histories to different "Bus Bits"! Loved this video thanks
Thanks for your experience with the Nationals! Will check out that channel! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@edbridges1164 I would not say they had a clack clack clack sound more a phut phut phut due to the weird injrctor sealing on the 510 engine. That was if they could start from cold as the cold start rarely worked and the air throttle meant cold stargting at idle throttle was the norm.
That noise was mint
@@AlunDutfield true I've watched a video of a bunch of South Riding Nationals starting from cold and let's just say the sky around them certainly wasn't clear! LoL! The National 2s were an Oddity to East Kent they had the ex Demonstrator "Q255GRW" and Stagecoach bought one in I think a "JCK" the National 2s seemed to not smoke as much! The National 1s could be Heavy Smokers! I believe the "Clack Clack" sound was the Fan Belt at the back
When I was going out with a girl who lived three miles away from me, I used to hope there was a National on the last Blackwood. I could hear the turbo whine in time to get onto the bus stop.
As a former NBC manager I well remember the horror with which many of us greeted the National. In its early days the engineers were terrified by its complexity and fuel consumption, the drivers unnerved by how light it was to drive and the passengers alarmed by how fast it could be thrown around by thoughtless drivers. However, everyone could see that it was a quantum leap in terms of ergonomic design, the engineers soon tamed its worst design faults, the drivers soon adapted, and it set the standard for a generation of new buses. It was originally intended to last 12 years, but in the event, many ran for 25 years, often retrofitted with DAF, Volvo or Gardner engines. The real reason it failed to gain wide acceptance outside NBC, or in export markets, is that many operators prefer to support local coachbuilders, and many countries specify a minimum percentage of local content (usually the body), which was not available with an integral vehicle.
Great to hear from a former NBC manager and your experience with the Nationals! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A lot of the early development ended up being done in the field by NBC engineers rather than by Leyland. The phase 2 largely copied the revisions on Northern General 4441.
Very well done feature.
The shorter roof pod was introduced in 1975 during the first National's production run ready for the phase 2 of the National 1 in 1976 which addressed issues like weight distribution by relocating the batteries in the front overhang under the driver.
Four gearbox options were offered. Four or five speed electro - pneumatically operated semi automatic gearbox or a fully automatic version of those. A ZF two speed full automatic transmission was also offered but rarely taken up, Melbourne with 30 ZF examples.
Thanks for the info, very interesting details!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The bus of my childhood, I lived in Midland Red territory and my local garage had quite a few, I can still hear the clatter of the 510 engine, the buses went on to live long lives with the Greenaway project by East Lancs, where a bus was stripped to its main skeleton then re-panelled to update it, also you forgot to mention the B21 which was basically a National Chassis which could be bodied by other body builders, once again a fantastic video, well presented, thank you
Hello! Thanks for the additional info! If there's something interesting abou the Greenway or B21, it may make a good video in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember these! I also recall the Leyland Lynx, which was the successor to this and the window issue was quite cleverly designed with the same length all the way from front to back but with added decals at the back, so the windows could be lower at the front.
They also sounded very distinct! I remember when they were replaced and still miss them as they were kind of amazing vehicles. The ones I used to ride were Cardiff Bus/Bws Caerdydd, and some were Rhondda and Caerphilly Transport.
My father used to drive these for Cardiff Bus and later Bebbs, along with Optare Clippers and Leyland Olympians & Titans. :D
Wow, nice memories of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Cardiff had some ZF Nationals!
@@jamesfrench7299 That is very cool! :D
I also remember that when I lived in the Ffynon Taff area, there was a company called IBT, or Islwyn Borough Transport, and they used to run Leyland Leopards. They were a baby blue/white combination and although a bit of a nightmare to get onto as a kid, they were literally coaches, so they were ridiculously comfortable. I also recall the engine on those was very unique in that it sounded amazing!
And the Leyland Olympian was also one of my favourites as they had some amazing turbo-whine. Absolutely amazing old beasts. :D
Thank you for your informative and interesting analysis of our quaint little bus. I'm quite personally touched that anyone from overseas would not only give this most unusual of vehicles "the time of day", but do so with a fondness and respect that you clearly did.
Flawed... yes, most certainly. British automotive history is littered with such examples of "flawed" automotive products.
The Leyland National. The Rover SD1. The Austin Allegro.... I could go on...
The thing is, whilst these vehicles and their like were all a bit... well, rubbish... they were OUR rubbish and we loved them. They were part of our lives, our families.
I still remember that on Sundays, the kitchen table would be used for Sunday lunch then a quick tidy-up so my dad could finish the cylinder head rebuild and get to work in the morning. I still carry WD40 in my car to this day because my dad did to blow out the distributor when it rained heavily. We have a car with a name and it's part of our family... I've repaired it far more times than most ordinary people would have, but that car has memories with our children. It's in family photographs.
These vehicles, whilst being a bit rubbish take on an almost human quality and I think that the National could be qualified in this too. It has faults like a human. Boring bland machines don't have faults, they get on with doing their job, day after day... relentlessly...
But, you take an old Austin Allegro or mid range Austin Maestro and it's almost like owning a pet with learning difficulties. It's not particularly "good" at anything, but you love it all the same and enjoy spending time with it.
My current daily is a Range Rover P38, the family jalopy is a Rover 75 Tourer and I have a Range Rover Classic which is perpetually broken and occasionally works for fun.
Long live rubbish vehicles, and all who sail in them 😅
Hello! Thank you for your very nice comment, it is much appreciated! I always like the way the original Nationals looked! So I really wanted to do this video. And thank you for all of the memories! Very interesting. Thank you so much for watching!!
I remember as a child born in the 1970s that the yellow version, as shown in the pics in the beginning of the video, was used for a short time in The Hague region (Holland, Europe). They seemed very solid to me compared to the noisy and wobbly, but comfortable dutch standard busses. I read that a big problem were slipping wheels, it could be an excuse to protect the Dutch bus industry which was flourishing in those days. But very nice to see your video Jeffrey! The Dutch standard busses had their own distinguished designs, like the British and American had. In Europe the designs have evolved to a boring standard windtunnel design, the same as has happened with cars.
Hello! Glad you liked the video, and thanks very much for the added info on Dutch buses! If you think European bus designs have become boring, just look at the American designs - nothing like the older GM New Look "Fishbowl" buses, or even the RTS are designed today - and today's buses are not very inspiring at all! Thanks very much for watching!!
Dude, I drove both the semi-auto Mk 1 around 1978/9, and the Mk 2 fully auto when it first came out, for Bristol Omnibus (publicly owned corporation run bus company, I learned on a Bristol FLF with a 'crash box', great fun). The Mk 1 was weird to drive; the steering was assisted, but not self-centring, in fact it often felt harder to pull back from full lock than getting there in the first place. It took some adjusting to. The engine was SMALL, with a turbo, the idea being that it would be economical to run. Sadly, as little as 4 mpg (Imperial, of course!) meant they were often governed down to where the turbo hardly spun up, with 6 mpg, but terrible acceleration. They crashed and rattled a lot, the older Bristol REs were much nicer to drive (and less 'crashy') even with no power steering. The Mk 2 was not much better. They had a slightly larger engine, but were also governed quite hard, so that on certain hills - Rownham Hill, plus one in Portishead - left in auto they surged ahead in 2nd, lurched into 3rd, but the torque couldn't pull it and so it dropped straight back to 2nd. For about half a mile... You could hold it back in 2nd, but it was so slow. Nobody liked them much. Sometime later one or two were adapted to run on railway tracks! They were really rubbish then!! But thanks for the memory prompt (-:)~
Hello! Wow, thanks for all of that info...kind of justifies the video, LOL. Too bad I didn't know these details, I would have added it to the video. Thanks for watching!!!
You've echoed what I've said elsewhere, the REs were much nicer to drive. They also reminded me of the Royal Blue coaches we used to catch to Bournemouth in the 60s with their evocative sound. Ours still had the £, s, d markings on the money tray.
I also passed my manual test on an FLF. My instructor on W&D showed us how to change gear once on the move without using the clutch by getting the revs right. Also that even in top gear, with your foot off the pedal, they will still chug along at a very low speed on the flat due to the torque of the engine.
Lovely, purring tickover sound.
The National was the first UK bus product to have roll-over and frontal impact testing - there were no rules, no equivalent of NCAP or Euro NCAP. Some of the research was done with ECW bodied Bristol RE's a lighter single decker than the Leyland National. The work was carried out by the Cranfield Impact Centre (located in what is now Cranfield University), using early forms of finite element analysis. This work was fed into the Leyland National design, as well as other Leyland bus designs in the 1970s. Roof collapse in roll over had been a growing issue, causing this work to be commissioned.
Of course, this was part of the government funded bus programme, a system that Leyland and the brands it owned by the late 1960s - it's own name plus AEC, Bristol, Daimler and so on - which was removed in the early 1980s in a move to 'free market economics'. An operator in effect had to pay more to buy a non-approved body / chassis combination under the previous system.
The Leyland National competed with the Bristol RELL and RELH in the UK market, but then in 1980 Leyland decided to close the Bristol factory. The sole product - the double deck Olympian - was transferred to Lillyhall.
The Leyland National also had the infamous '500' engine with monolock design, which had huge potential but was put into mass production before durability testing was complete. The result was huge warranty costs right across the Leyland empire - it was superceded by more reliable Leyland designs. This approach to product development was the primary reason for some of the mistakes.
Wow, thanks for all of the information and thanks for watching!!
I remember this bus with affection. I caught the bus to school in the early '70s and it replaced what seemed like ancient stock. When one appeared, everyone at the bus stop was much happier to see it rather than an old bus. This was quiet, quick, comfortable and felt roomy without being too stuffy, even when full. The biggest difference was how smooth it felt with a lovely engine sound and seamless gearchanges. Modern buses really don't seem that different from it over 50 years later, but it was a step change from what came before it.
Hello!! Thanks for the memories of the National, very interesting!!!! Thanks for watching!
I went school on these buses in Canberra Australia through the late 70's .Always remember the huge cloud of exhaust smoke as they took off.
LOL, must have not been healthy, either. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
One of those lovely memories to chuckle at ! These remind me of the Dennis dart a little, soon there will only be quiet clean low emission and electrics, I know that's good but it was nice to have louder raucous diesel engines, very soon we won't have the old Renault diesels anymore , the new electrics are very nice though ! .
It is fascinating and refreshing to hear a person in North America talking about British buses with such enthusiasm and authority. Jeffrey sounds like my husband with an American accent!
Thank you so much, Melanie!! I very much appreciate your nice comment!!! Thank you for watching!!
Hi. As I said the other day my dad worked at Leyland motors in the 40s and 50s. It employed over 30.000 people all those years ago. Now about 1200. The main factory is in Farington just outside Leyland. Then there was the North works where Morrissons supermarket is now. Chassis assembly where my dad worked. The South works which is now a big car park and the Leyland museum. There was a massive works canteen on Thurston Road which linked the South and North works together. The shopping street. Hough Lane was built between the North and South works. The canteen has long gone and now houses. The spurrier works in Farington and a new factory is now Leyland motors. There was another site off Pilling Lane Chorley which is now a housing estate with the roads named after Leyland trucks and buses. Fishwick buses was based on Tuer Street for over a hundred years. Quarter of mile away from the North works. Which part of the USA are you from?
Hello! Very interesting to hear about Leyland - I always like to hear about the history of these manufacturers. Would make a good video! I'm in New York City. Thanks for watching!
A very interesting video, the National was forced on the fleets of the National Bus Company with a choice of red or green livery.
In the 90s quite a lot of Nationals were re bodied by a company called Willowbrook using the original frames, replacing steel outside panels with aluminium.
The National 2 was a much better bus but it came too late.
I much appreciate the time and trouble you take to make these videos.
🏴
Yes! The National made its debut not too long after the NBC came into being. It's unfortunate that all those great liveries were replaced with either poppy red or leaf green. I think the Lynx had replaced the National, from what I have read. Thanks again for your informative comments!!
your thinking of east lancs coachbuilders & the leyland national greenway
@@kaolla1000 Yes, old age getting to me.
Willowbrook never touched Nationals. It was East Lancs who did the Nationals, known as the Greenway. Willowbrook were more well known for rebodying Leopards, mostly with the Warrior for bus work, but also the Crusader as a Coach. Unlike the Greenways which were pretty successful, Willowbrook's rebuilds didn't last long since Willowbrook bodies were rustbuckets, and the Leopard wasn't great for bus work due to it's high floor. Funnily I actually work on the site of the former Willowbrook factory, now a retail park.
As a former bus driver, i had the pleasure of driving the Leyland National for 3 years. They were a bus drivers dream. Always had to bear in mind the long overhang at the back.
They were a very comfortable bus to drive. The power steering made it a dream. In fact, sometimes, the steering was just a bit too light at times. The only real problem with them, was the thermostat. They would often fail. Heating on in the summer, heating off in the winter. Nothing as a driver you could do about it. The gearbox was first class. The setup we had, was that we could leave the gearbox in fully automatic, or we could change manually.
Passengers used to love travelling on these buses, as they were very smooth, with a nice soft suspension.
Hello! Thanks very much for your experience in driving the National - very interesting!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
When the National first came out I remember a driver (probably transferred from a Bristol RE) complaining that "It goes very well in a straight line, especially when you don't want it to!" The RE had a Rear Engine as the name suggests, but the gearbox was mounted ahead of the axle, which gave a much better weight balance. The National had the engine and gearbox behind the axle and without many passengers it could lift its front wheels and lose steering. As a passenger they were very smooth and refined except for the clouds of black smoke, but I preferred the REs especially with Gardner engines. Excellent buses, no wonder Leyland bought them and closed them down. My all-time favourite was the RE coach with the high floor, high speed axle and air suspension, like running down the M1 on a magic carpet.
As I live in Leyland who's Father-in-law worked on the National, this was a very interesting watch. During the late 80s, 90s and 2000s I used to see JS Fishwick Nattionals across Leyland on 111 and 113 service to Preston after marrying a Leyland girl, good memories, thank you.
Hello! Thank you very much for your memoris of the National! And thank you very much for watching!!
In the West Midlands county, we still had the Leyland National on several local routes here well into the 1990s, and I think early 2000s. I loved riding them.
Enjoyed this great perspective of our buses from an overseas enthusiast! Very enlightening, interesting & educational!
Thanks for sharing!
Hello! I'm really happy you enjoyed the video!!! Thanks so much for watching!!!
And there was the infamous Pacer - a commuter train based on a National bus body on a chassis based on what had been a 4-wheeled rail research chassis. Developed in the 1980s as a cheap stop gap for British Rail - still in service in the early 2020s. So bad that many people ended up 'loving' it - uncomfortable, noisy, but it worked. Formally known as the class 140 to 144s.
Oh yes, the Pacer! Maybe a subject for another video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
They were awful but on the other hand quite spacious and light.
Great video.
In the early '70s, I used to take the bus to school and back.
One afternoon, I was waiting at the bus stop when a 'Midland Red' Leyland National appeared. I had never seen anything like it. Compared with the BMMO S17 (single-decker) or D9 (double-decker) buses that I was used to, this was like a space-ship.
Glad you liked it!! Thanks for your memory of the Nationals! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
The BMMO S17 and D9 Midland Red were like old friends to me. For UK people take a visit to Wythall Bus Museum and wallow in nostalgia!!
Hi everyone, just to let you know the Jamaica 🇯🇲 Omnibus Service (JOS) purchased 160 Leyland National (MK1) buses back in the 70's (1973-1976 approximately) These were the N buses from N1 to N160. The first 10 units were semiautomatic and the rest were full automatic. However from the start, those buses were not suitable for the tough and hot Jamaican conditions. Furthermore the mechanics had a hard time maintaining them and parts were hard to come by. Therefore they had to change to a different brand of buses. They bought Albion Clydesdale and Guy Victory(approximately 100 units).
Hello! Thank you for the additional info about the Jamaican Leyland Nationals! Didn't know how many they had!
Hi Jeff, thanks for your reply. There's one more thing I left out about those buses. Because of the vandalism in that country, the passenger seats were being cut up. Therefore JOS had no choice but to order those 160 units with TOUGH FIBREGLASS seats.
I believe some of the Clydesdales had Leyland National bodies adapted to fit them.
I loved Leyland Nationals as a kid - the seemed so much faster than the other ones, or at least certainly sounded faster! I think the irony of their design is that BL did loads of testing in extreme environments - the arctic and deserts, plus wind tunnels etc, but the one thing they didn't do was to test the prototypes in real- life day to day bus operation! So there were lots of snags, and the engine choice of the 501 engine was probably a mistake. On the plus side, the body design probably was a complete success. The mk2 version with the 0680 engine and lots of issues fixed was a seriously impressive bus, but it came too late and they didn't sell very many.
Wow, that's very interesting to hear about their testing practices!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
An interesting addition to the National's story, Jeffrey - thanks. These buses were a regular feature throughout my childhood in North-West England in the 70s, taking me to and from school, out and about in and around the town I grew up in, excursions out into the countryside with my parents, etc, so I'll always have a soft spot for them 😊
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Thanks for your memory of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
6:22 a Canberra ACTION bus. They were already phasing them out in '86. I remember they had semi automatic gearshift to the right of the steering wheel. I always thought they were quirky and interesting busses.
Thanks for the info on the Canberra bus! Thanks for watching!
Great insight in the development of the model, I have fond memories in the late 80's and into the mid 90's of travelling on Leyland Nationals on a regular basis as a kid.
Yorkshire Traction who where based in South Yorkshire had a fleet of them and they served our village from Stocksbridge to Barnsley. Remember the semi-auto gearbox and the battle the drivers had getting up Lowe Lane to Stainborough, We sat at the back and there would be smoke coming up through the panel in the floor where the engine was.
There was a Leyland National that crashed in Sheffield into the Ponds Forge swimming baths when they where under construction in the early 90's, Some pictures can be found online showing the bus and the damage done to it.
Hello! Glad you liked the video!! Thanks for the Leyland National memories! Thanks for watching!
If you were going to travel in a single deck bus, during the 1970's and 1980's, then you know that it was most likely to be a Leyland National. During the 1980's Crosville converted some of their Nationals, by replacing the Leyland engine for a Gardener engine.
Hello! Thank you for relaying your experience with the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
In England yes, but until de regulation in Scotland it was mostly Alexander Y types on leyland aec albion seddon Bristol ford or Bedford chassis
We had these in Canberra, Australia back in the 70s. 17 built in the UK and 54 built in Australia. Our bus service, ACTION, had three covered bus depots for overnight parking but these buses could only park in one because the air-con unit was too high for two depots.
Interesting info about the Nationals in Canberra! Thanks for watching!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Here is a link to the ACTION operating manual for the Leyland Nationals: www.archives.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/562595/Leyland_bus_manual.pdf
The very first Nationals had a serious flaw, the body would suddenly roll on the suspension when cornering, the sudden redistribution of weight made life very interesting for the driver, especially in the wet, the Goodyear Unisteel tyres they came fitted with were poor in the wet and would let go very quickly and without warning.
This flaw was soon rectified by returning them to British Leyland to be retrofitted with body dampers, the front tyres were changed in the depot to Michelin Radials which made them much better in the wet, (The Goodyear tyres remained on the rear) the second-generation buses were much better, But it was only when the Mk 2 came along did we get a bus that was warm, powerful and good to drive, it was a vast improvement on the first efforts and was really a very good bus.
Hello! Thank you for the additional information on the Nationals!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I liked the National They were very noisy and smoked a lot but never got stuck in snow unlike the other busses in the fleet. There was a 1 in 7 hill ( 14% ) going to work and one year the gritters were on strike. The driver said he was not sure we would make it with about a foot of snow but would try in low gear. We pushed our way through with snow up to the windscreen and made it with no problem. In later years the doors caused problems and the centre door ones had them removed, a micro switch on the engine bay door used to need a kick on the door before they would start, also the air suspension got none existent, they were pretty old by then so overall outlasted many other busses.
Hello! Thank you for relaying your interesting experience with the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I was a passenger on a National that got stuck in a deep snow once. The driver put it in gear and floored it. Nothing happened and after 5 mins I got fed up and got up to tell him that merely flooring the throttle and spinning the wheels will never work. I got within a few feet of the platform when I realised how wrong I was. It came out of that drift at warp 8! Just like a kids pushalong toy when you set the wheels spinning and drop it on the ground! The driver explained that the combined effort of the wheels digging down and the heat and weight of the engine meant they acted like giant milling cutters, cutting through the snow and ice until they touched something solid. As a driver a few years ago I too got my Enviro 400 bus stuck in snow and used this technique to free it.
@@chrislee5981 Great to hear it worked. I had a driver try that with a leopard and it just burnt the tread off the tyres, with no weight of the engine over the back end, other drivers had asked eveyone to move to the back and that had worked too
Great video Jeffrery my Dad worked at the Lillyhall factory near Workington for 20 years so many happy working years there a big employer for the town of Workington still talks about his time there now at 81 years old so sad it closed in the early 1990's
Hello! I'm really happy you liked the video!! Your Dad must have some great stories about Leyland factory!! Thanks for watching!
One of the best sounding and distinctive engine sounds ever , the mk2 sounded nice as well with its deep growl
Interesting! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Absolutely, I was about to make the same comment. The 510 engine had an unmistakeable sound, like no other. I also remember watching them start from cold, they would crank for minutes on end (there are videos of them being started on YT). I took a journey on a MK1 one recently at a bus show and the engine sound took me right back to my school days. The MK2 buses did sound more powerful and throaty, somehow less strained.
An excellent video which I thoroughly enjoyed. Good memories of these buses from my childhood in Berkshire and Buckinghamshire. It was a treat if a driver had rolled up the blind behind the cab seat so the passenger on the bench seat behind could see what was going on! Great sounding engine if incredibly smokey, wouldn't be welcome in a low emission zone today! Most had been replaced by the time I came to drive buses but I enjoyed driving a preserved example a friend owned. The rail bus equivalent has only recently been retired although some other older bus-derived classes built in the 1980s can still be found on the UK rail network. If you haven't got a copy Beyond Reality by Doug Jack is well worth a read from a Leyland insiders perspective. Other books are of course a available! I was also a great fan of the National's intended successor the 'B60' Lynx. But that's another story I guess! Keep up the good work and thank you for posting the video. Matt (from the UK)
Hello! Glad you liked it and thanks for your memories! Yes, I actually do have a copy of Beyond Reality! Great book! Maybe a video should be made of it!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hi. I live in Chorley which is 4 miles away from Leyland. I was a Taxi driver in Leyland for 23 years. My dad worked at Leyland motors which made the buses and lorries in the 1940s and 1950s. My wife's dad worked at the Leyland motors for 30 years plus and was on the team who designed and built the National. I have a friend who lives in Leyland was a mechanic at Fishwick buses for around 26 to 27 years
Hello! Thank you for your memories of your experiences with the Leyland National! Thanks for watching!!
Being born in Leyland and raised in Lostock Hall, I remember very fondly Fishwicks' buses especially the 111 (pictured at 16.20) and 109 service from Leyland to Preston, always well presented with friendly-ish drivers! I am sure a couple of them used to play pinball with us younger passengers setting off before we were seated!!!
Thanks for your memories! Thanks for watching!
About the bus in the river- can't take the credit but found this comment online:
The Ribble bus in the river was one belonging to their Blackburn depot. It was 457 NTC 637M and was travelling to Rochdale on their 244 Preston to Rochdale service on the afternoon of the 16th November 1984. The accident occurred very close to Rawtenstall town centre when it ran through a wall and belly flopped into the river due to excessive speed, which the driver couldn't correct. To prove the Nationals strength, no windows were broken, and the engine was still running when the rescue services arrived. It was recovered to Ribble's Burnley depot for damage assessment. It was deemed a repairable project, but due to it being nearly eleven years old, it was withdrawn from service and stripped for usable parts.
Hello! Thank you for the added information about the National in the river, very interesting! Thank you very much for watching!!
I’m not surprised the SBG (Scottish Bus Group) used the older and more reliable Leyland Leopard Alexander Y type as the default single deck bus in Scotland although some municipal bus companies such as GGPTE (Greater Glasgow Passenger Transport Executive) and LRT (Lothian Regional Transport) in Edinburgh bought some National 1s It wasn’t until the introduction of the National 2 we began to see SBG buying them. Barrhead (small town near Glasgow) independent operator McGill’s had a sizeable fleet of National 1 & 2s, even a Danish built articulated National 2 which was a partnership between Leyland & Danish coach builder DAB.
Interesting to read about the Nationals in Scotland! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I personally loved this type of bus and always feel nostalgic when I see one in a video like this
That's nice to hear! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
In Australia, Brisbane City Council bought about six of them around 1975/76, but never went back for more, and the small batch didn't last long. Surfside Buses on the Gold Coast was a much more satisfied customer, making the type the mainstay of their fleet from the late seventies into the eighties.
Hello! Very interesting to read your comment about the Australian Nationals! Thank you for watching from Australia and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Surfside ran 39 at their peak use of the type from a handful they purchased new in 1976 and the rest second hand ones they aquired from various operators in Sydney (including ones I caught to and from school as a kid) from the mid 1980s. They scrapped most of them by 1994, selling off a few.
They were the biggest privately run operator of the type in Aust. ACTION in Canberra had the largest fleet of about 70 units (20 1974 long pod ones and the rest 50 1975 build short pod ones).
20 recieved MAN motor and Voith 3 speed gearbox transplants in the late 80s as hand me downs from MAN Sl200 buses in their fleet recieving higher HP engine upgrades!
My dad was a bus driver for most of his adult life, working for the Hants & Dorset bus company. He was based in Southampton, UK and drove buses from the late 1960s to the early 2000s. The Leyland National was a big part of his bus driving story when it arrived. My brother also drove these and they both thought highly of them. I think that it was a National that my brother did a lot of damage to once. He had driven into a place that I think terminated the outbound part of his route. It involved swinging the bus in between two large stone piers, then stopping and reversing out again. During the reverse, he just kept the steering lock exactly where it was when he swung in and floored it (the Nationals were quite spritely). Unfortunately this didn't work at all. Somehow the exit swing was different to the entry. The front of the bus hit the pier very hard, right by the folding door. This ripped the entire front coachwork off the bus. The first thing he noticed was that the glass fell vertically down leaving him with more than one way to exit the vehicle. Needless to say, he was in big trouble over this.
Hello! Wow, that's some story about the National accident!! Thanks for relaying it and thanks for watching!!
My understanding is that the Leyland National failed in London because the rear engine design overheated badly in standing traffic, kinda a no-no in central London. London Transport had purchased or had options on a huge fleet, which was passed on to other operators. The mid to late seventies I lived in Redditch in Midland Red territory. You could certainly sense how light the steering was even as a passenger. Redditch was a "new town" and had dedicated bus highways covering half the town. Nationals seemed in their element and were really nippy on the dedicated roads, and the drivers would really push them.
Hello! Thanks for your very interesting comment on the Nationals! Thank you for watching!!!
Not so. London Transport had taken 633 AEC Swift 691 and 833 Swift 505, their shortcomings became legendary, in 1973 with the last Swift 505 a mere 18 months old LT took six Metro-Scania and six Leyland Nationals (both short wheelbase) for evaluation. The eventual new-purchased fleet of Nationals was 502, with the last 46(the National IIs) replacing the last Swift 691s. Unlike the AEC single decks the National did well in London and 43 were converted by East Lancs into Greenways to update the Red Arrow commuter services. LT also bought three long Nationals second hand, one became a Greenway while the other two were used on mobility services, with a wheelchair ramp at the centre door.
Oh nice. I used to drive them when I first started driving coaches. We had some second hand ones our company bought. They were ok, a bit noisy, but that's why they put the engine at the back nearer the passengers! Not sure about the heating as you mentioned in the video, it never seemed to work if I remember right. The engines used to explode though, throwing piston rods out the side, resulting in a trail of oil down the road. Someone told me way back, it was because they designed it with the engine laying on it's side to keep the floor height low, but the oil used to pool to one side going round corners. Also the simple riveted construction enabled them to be repaired quickly in a bus garage so they didn't need to go away to a specialist bodyworks place, quick and simple keeping the vehicle on the road earning money. Anyway a nice look back at these numerous buses. All the best Dave.
Hello! Thank you for your interesting comment on your experience driving the Nationals! Guess it had both good points and...not so good. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I saw one explode in a bus station. A tyre fitter for the bus company had just said to me that engines about to go and it did in a big way.
Early examples had a problem as the oil sump was wrongly designed , feeding oil through the turbocharger on left turns. Revised baffles from mid-1973 put an end to that though.
Born in '74 I loved this bus' styling as growing lad. Great video Jeffrey👍
I'm really glad you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I’ve just found this video. What the heck is an American doing being interested in this thing, which were so ubiquitous in the 70s and 80s and made so many of us feel travel sick on hot days, being swung about on the back seats, with that rumbling engine beneath? United Counties Number 29 Luton Bus Station to Dunstable via Marsh Farm, or 31 Leagrave to Luton Airport via Marsh Farm. The memories are flooding back. Thanks for a great video.
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video! If you think this is odd, wait until you see my next video....an American doing a topic on a British bus so obscure, it sure will be even stranger. Hopefully you'll stay tuned! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
They were a pretty decent modern bus in the day and while the engine carried on a bit noise wise, it was actually a very smooth running unit which hummed through the cabin rather than vibrate. I always found them impressive in person.
I remember these in Brighton, as a kid in the 70s. A kind of turqouise blue. Older friends would rock up at the bus depot in Lewis Road to try and get a free, inflated, tyre inner tube to take down the beach as a floating ring. Such great memories. How have I become 53!!!!
LOL, thanks for relating your experience with this bus! And thanks for watching!!
Belgrade, Yugoslavia, use to have Leyland buses. They were known as having misterious semi-automatic transmission with no clutch.
They also were had to kept running in the winter over night, as if engine drops to low temperature, it would not start.
Hello! Wow, that's really interesting to hear about the Leylands in Belgrade! Thanks for watching!
I recently learned that diesel engines are happy to tick over for hours on end, so that makes sense.
I remember them being trialled by SELNEC. They were numbered in the EX series along with some Metro-Scanias and a couple of Mercedes.
The National became the standard single decker for SELNEC and GMT.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Yeah, and they were absolute sheds. Worked on them in the 80s and hated them. My biggest memory of them was the windscreens jumping up and down by an inch or so. The door shear pins were another pain in the arse job, and probably one of the worst manifold systems for getting them sealed properly. Anti roll bar bushes were another part we were constantly replacing.
JYO751N was originally one of the Midland Bank mobile banks, later converted for passenger use and re-engined with a Volvo unit. I drove it in the late 90s and it was unusual for having a fully automatic gearbox, compared to the usual semi-automatic.
It felt like a new bus, so tight and little clatter.
Hello! Thanks for the extra info on the Midland Bank National - very interesting to hear! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
When i was a coachbuilder in the 80.s i used to repair smashed up Nationals quite often.They are literally like a Meccano kit and were so easy compared to other buses in our company like Bristols and Daimlers.
LOL, that sounds quite interesting on how it was to work with the Nationals. Thanks for watching!!
Mate, I tell Ya: talking about the heating brought back so many bad winter memories in a popsicle called bus. Although we rode only M.A.N(Büssing), Mercedes or Kässbohrer Setras to school. But they were all old and worn (in the 80´s) exept that one guy with his Setra.
That bus was top class, it had carpet and was actually warm(!) inside. The buses used for us school kids were all wrecks back in the days...
One MAN lost its steering in the turn circle. Hydraulic broke, it lost all its oil. Two hours later the driver, our vickar and a tech from the shop next door got it working enough to do the tour. The bus ended as an office on a used car lot, it was rusted thru all the way...
Today buses look like shit. Thanks a lot for a trip down memory lane!
Hello! Wow, what a story about the MAN bus!! Glad you liked the video! Thanks for watching!
Leyland National Green Crosville buses in Wrexham. We lived on a bus route in a village on the outskirts of the town. The sound of this bus I heard every hour I was at home when I was growing up.
Getting on the bus in Southsea Wrexham to go to Rhyl was £1 day return. 👍👍👍
Hello! Thanks for your memories of riding the Leyland Natinoal!! Thanks for watching!
I remember the very distinctive sound these buses made and I remember they used to vibrate a fair bit when idling in traffic or at stops. Thanks for the film.
Glad you liked it!!! Thanks for watching!
I remember regularly travelling in those Nationals when commuting to college with my fellow students. Our preferred raised section at the rear was right over the engine and it would get really hot there during the summer.
Hello! Thank you for your own experience with the National!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
i did my apprenticeship working on leyland buses in perth western australia,there was only one national delivered to perth,it had the 510 turbo and the experimantal/prototypre analog computer comtrolled hydraulically shifter wilson box,it was later converted to a standard semi auto,the MTT instead chose the B21 with the 2 stroke detroit diesel and allison auto
Hello! Thanks for your recollections of the National in Perth! Thanks for watching!!!
Great video Jeff 😊 I can remember riding on these buses as a child 😀 and the transport museum in Leyland is well worth a visit 😀 keep up the great work 👍
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video!! Thanks so much for watching!!
One of the last uses of these in Lincoln UK, and with 'Roadcar' of the time (now Stagecoach) was the 'Economy Link' busses. Nearly 30 years ago I used to catch them into town to go to school. 30 pence for a return ticket! It only had one front entrance so was maybe the B model. Recognised the lights and shape instantly. They were noisey and smelled of diesel and machinery and also smelled damp lol. Proper bus.
Hello! LOL, thanks for the memories of the National! Thanks for watching!
Great video Jeffrey, found it really interesting as I used to go to school on these back in the day - Hotspur! Brought back good memories, thanks
Hello! I'm glad you liked the video!! Thanks for watching!
Here in South Africa I remember riding in a Leyland Kudu in the 70's. The bus was designed for the conditions - high chassis and 68 seated and 17 standing passenger's. No coach style seats here - just bench seats.
Hello! That's interesting...maybe a South African bus would make a good video! Thanks for watching!
I hated driving the National.
The 501 engine was very unreliable and noisy. The heating system was poor blowing warm air down from the roof, hot air rises doesn't it?
They were overcomplicated, we often had to kick the engine cover to get the engine to start. There was a cheap and nasty safety switch behind the cover that often failed.
I am glad I have a 1963 front engined double decker, a superb bus that does 10mpg.
Hello! Thank you so much for your experience with the National! Very interesting!!! I guess it really was a flawed design, LOL. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Should have suited Brisbane passengers with air conditioning
The ventilation system was designed so that a curtain of warm air would keep the windows free of condensation, and is much less fierce than floor mounted radiators. Modern air conditioning systems are always ceiling mounted after all
@@AndreiTupolev The heating was crap. I well remember being too hot and cold at the same time. And the basic bus seats had no padding and a stupid bar that dug in your back.
Well I for one loved the sound of them and drove them and National 2's which were OK but didn't have the nice sound.
Was staring at that bendy bus thinking....is that Sheffield? It was....they were still in use into early 2000s I think. Flawed but interesting pretty much sums up Leyland! Thanks for the bus trip down memory lane.
Thanks for watching!
I remember these as a child, the national 2 looked out of this world compared to the buses they replaced by my local operator which came from the 1950s .Great video
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
From what i can recall, the National was not helped by the fact that it's main customer, the National Bus Company, apparently did not want them! They would have preferred to continue buying the Bristol RE. The National was considerably heavier and cost more to run (if I recall correctly, it was also heavier than the VR double decker). However, they were prevented from buying the RE, due to a policy that they would be export only ( apart from Northern Ireland, due to a job creation requirement that buses would have locally made bodies, which ruled out the National, because of it's unit construction). By this time Bristol was pretty much owned by Leyland and the decision was made to encourage sales of their new bus. Even so, I remember that my local bus company initially bought very few Nationals, instead tending to buy the Bristol LH, though they did buy more later.
Hello! Thanks for the additional info on the National - very interesting! Thanks for watching!!
I think the Leyland National was ahead of it's time and a great looking bus.Great piece by the way!
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Fascinating. As a school kid I used to take buses every day and Fishwick were the best because they drove faster than the competition, Ribble. The sight of the green bus when I was waiting at the bus stop was always great because it would be an exciting ride.
Thanks for your memories of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Happy late 4th, Jeffery. Thanks as always
Hello Jason!! Happy 4th of July to you, too!! And as always, thank you for watching!!!
As I born in Hong Kong and I always took the bus built by UK on that time before I came to US in 1996, even though Leyland National had never been served in this city and never had a chance to have a ride on it, I still think that it is one of the classical buses build by Leyland, along with Lynx and Olympian.
Hello! Oh yes, the National is a real classic in design! Thank you very much for watching!!
I remember going to school on these when they were introduced - brand new. The back seats were definitely preferred for us kids as it was difficulty to see out of the front ones!
LOL! They must have fought over those back seats! Thanks for watching!
Great video, well done. The National was a horrible bus to ride on as a passenger. It was OK if you sat at the back, but as this was usually for smoking passengers you would have other issues to worry about. I didn't mind having one on a short hop in to town, but if I was going on a longer trip and a National appeared I would always find something else to do for 20 or 30 minutes and hope the next service produced a Bristol VR or Leyland Leopard. The coach seated variants were more acceptable, but they lacked the plastic shield between the lower and upper decks which was present on the bus seated ones in order to stop the flying passenger issues discussed in your video. Most operators at the time really wanted a full air-suspension version of the Bristol RE, but as Leyland owned Bristol, they saw to it that the Bristol RE was put out of production to force operators hands. The only exception to this being in Northern Ireland where they flat refused to buy anything but RE's for suburban use and so a limited production run had to be kept open for them to stop losing that business. The National's also had a tendency to twist when going around sharp corners, most notable when looking in your wing mirrors... I've always liked Leyland vehicles, the Leopard (even though brakes appeared to be option...) and the Olympian which was a lovely smooth bus to drive. However I was glad to see the back of Nationals.
I"m very glad you liked the video! Very interesting to hear your experience with the National!! And yes, the RE was a great bus! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Re the Ribble National in the river. From the buildings etc. I believe the photo is taken in Rawtenstall (Lancashire). To the right, the building with the curved window is on the right side of Bury Rd., with the railway station just out of shot nearer the camera on the same side. The wooden building is still there (now 'Bread Shed') as is the footbridge. To the left of the footbridge is a supermarket (now Tesco). Check out what it looks like now on Google Street View!
Hello! Thank you for the information!!! There was another comment on the location, and I've added it to the description. I'll check what is written, and may add this if it gives more description to it, and I'll give you credit. If that's ok with you. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I forgot to mention in my previous post. Some more information came to light re my request for information on the National in the river. A reply stated "I have it written down as 16th November 1984,fleet number 457 (NTC437M)" Someone else also put a colour photo of it as well.
I used to ride these crosville buses as a kid in the 70s and 80s. Most buses were replaced by smaller Mercedes in the early 80s, but some of these, plus double deckers still operated for longer routes here in North Wales, Britain.
Thanks for your memories of this bus! And thank you for watching!!!
I remember well travelling on the Leyland National as a young man and was struck by it's modern design and the smoothness of its transmission and engine. The pod on the rear of the early versions was to draw in air for cooling the engine and for heating of the interior. It was a shame it didn't continue as a passenger bus but continued as a train in the north of the UK known as a Pacer train using the same body and engine but with a redesigned transmission and a twin axle boggie at either end of the carriage.
Thanks for the extra info on the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Used to use these buses to get to school in the early 90’s. The noise it made as it approached a gear change was tremendous
Thanks for your memories of the National!! Thanks for watching!
Avdel rivets (Avdeloks) were used extensively in the Leyland commercial vehicles and in the military Landrover 1Tonne body. There are still a common feature in commercial body builds.
The bendy bus experiments were enabled by a change in the Construction & Use Regulations around 1980 which allowed for longer and articulated single deck buses. Buses got progressively longer throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s culminating in todays 13.6m bodies with articulation acceptable. Early articulated buses had to remain able to move with the 'trailer' sectio removed. This was later amended and most recent design push from the rear section.
Hello! Thanks for the additional bus information, very interesting!!! And thanks for watching!!
So what were the 'amazing flaws'? You seem to have skipped over that! I remember these busses as a kid and they seemed very modern (at the time) and comfortable.
Hello....sorry you didn't like the video. Thanks for watching.
@JeffreyOrnstein was thinking the same... the video is great, but the title is daft...
Maybe Jeffrey miss spelt flawed and meant Floored, as the floor was nice and low for the era.
Chris
I used to get one to school in the 70s… I would sometimes miss the first bus so I could get a National… which were brand new at the time! 😂
Owen in the UK.
Very informative video… thanks
I'm happy you liked the video! Thanks for watching!
I grew up when the national were in use, and when I got my psv license I got to drive one. However, the one I drove was greenway national. These apparently were rebodied as this was a cheaper option and a testament to how good the chassis must have been. Personally I wasn’t keen on them to drive. It was possible to run out of air very quickly, meaning breaking could be challenging. More so when shunting. I think the ones we had in our yards had Volvo b10 engines too
Hello! Thanks for relaying your experience with the Nationals! Thanks for watching!
Another great video Jeffery. Unless I missed something here, wouldn’t it have made sense to build a single deck bus based on the long proven double deckers that were being built in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
Glad you liked it - I think the concept of the National was different than the standard double deck chassis of the day, being modular...different construction methods used for variation, would be one reason why they didn't go for a more proven type of a bus. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein There had been single deck Daimler Fleetlines, performance was pedestrian, drivers disliked them as the driving position was too low and bodybuilderws failed to engineer a durable enough structure. The Leyland Panther and AEC Swift used Leopard and Reliance units in a frame and with a front axle derived from the Atlantean, Panthers you have covered already.
Peter Wyngard had a pretty extraordinary life. He actually grew up in a Japanese concentration camp during the war, which was more than what Jason King could claim...
Wow, didn't know that about Wyngard. Thanks for watching!
Perhaps the "Business Computer" would have been better marketed as "the probably bigest Limousine in the World"😂
LOL, yes, maybe that would have worked! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I had no Idea there were so many versions of this, however they were being phased out when I was a kid. Great video. Enjoyed watching.
I'm really glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Isn't this the ones used for the pacer trains? You gotta cover that now 😅 Great video bud 👍🏼
Hello! Yes, it is the body used for the Pacers. I've actually done a video on LEV-2, a railbus that had a National body that was tested in the USA. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein oh that's true you did do that one 👌🏽
Thanks for this, one of the most informative videos I've found on the National so far. Great job. Sure, the National gets criticism, what doesn't, but it does have it's band of followers over here in the UK. I love riding them at meets when possible, and enjoy that characteristic diesel knock "crackle".
Hello! Glad you liked the video!! Must be fun to ride a restored National at rallies and meets! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Missed out on the National at yesterday's event, but came away happy after a decent journey in a Cummins engined Olympian instead.
That you for this insight into these busses, I remember them on our local services, replacing the AEC Merlin/Swifts (SM) and even RF's on some routes. They had a very distinctive sound especially when sitting in the back and the ride in the seats behind the rear wheels could be quite violent on sharp corners.
I'm really glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I used to go to school on one of these in germany as part of the british forces on rhine. They were much beloved by all of us except when we broke down at least once a week and they were replaced by shiny new volvo busses. We much preferred the old leylands.
Interesting story! Thanks for watching!
I grew up with these. By far my favourite model
Thanks for watching!
This is new to me. I wonder if you will do a UK failure of a bus - but one I am very fond of, being from the area that some of them ran in (Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, UK). I ask for the... Albion Lowlander! The first bus I remember from my childhood (Closely followed by Leyland Atlantean's with the infamous "Kissing" Roe bodies - they genuinely looked like they wanted to kiss you! - and WYPTE'S Scania Metropolitan's). The Lowlander was a low-height variant of the highly successful Leyland Titan. The driver compartment was slightly too small, everything was inaccessible for mechanics, the gearboxes could be temperamental and were prone to bodywork damage. But in two companies, they were loved - my native Yorkshire Woollen, where they were liked as a solid all-rounder and East Midlands, who adored them for their SUPERLATIVE hill climbing ability.
Hello! Thank you for your very interesting comment with some nice ideas! I have a few more British bus ideas myself, but I'll look into these that you mention - if I can find enough information and and if there's a really crazy angle to the story, I'll try to do it in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein THE crazy one of course has to be the Guy Wulfrainian , followed by the Daimler Roadliner.
@@highpath4776 Yes! The Wulfrunian is a bus I want to do a video on soon! I do know about it. I know I've read about the Roadliner, but have to look into it more. Thanks.
@@JeffreyOrnstein West Riding in Yorkshire had Wulfunians. They removed 4 seats from the upstairs front because the drivers complained the steering was too heavy with people sitting ahead of the front wheels. They rolled about as well and my scariest ever bus ride was on one that almost overturned on a road junction with adverse camber. It went so far over the body panels scraped the road on the drivers side and left a gouge in the road. It was caused by almost everyone being on that side of the bus. I got off the bus at the stop just after the junction and saw the damage.
@@cedarcam Thanks for this account!! I might like to use it in the video, just as a first-hand experience of riding in a Wulf. I will give you credit if you want. I only see "cedarcam", but if you want your actual name used, let me know. Or if you do not want this used, it's ok too, and I won't!
At the National Bus launch at the CV Motor Show in Earl's Court, they had a version for use in major disasters. It included several stretchers lying flat which could enter and leave via the opening rear window. It included various medical facilities, and a CCTV camera on a pole. I remember my dad reaching over and using the camera to zoom in on a woman working an adjacent stand.
Yes, you are right! It was called the Lifeliner. Didn't realized I missed that until after uploading, unfortunately. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
spent many a morning in 1986 bouncing along in packed standing room only green john fishwick & sons on my way to college from chorley to leyland. Interesting to see the 'Chorley via Euxton Lane'....that was my bus!!!
Thanks for relaying your experience with those buses and thanks for watching!!!
I used to ride Nationals in the Stoke-on-Trent area, operated by PMT. They replaced the old Bristol RE series. Then when I moved north they had the class 142 trains which were based on Nationals and were rickety and bounced all over the place.
Thanks for your experiences with this bus and the class 142! And thanks for watching!!
I used to drive Leyland Nationals during my bus driving career. In dry conditions they were great but in wet weather they slipped and slided all over. In the early 90's Idrove a National mk 1 demonstrater which had been retro fitted with a Volvo engine and compleatly refurbished inside. Unfortuatly it was a wet day and it just spun its wheels all the time. But I think the engine was just too powerful. Great buses though,.
Thanks for relaying your experience with the Nationals! Thanks for watching!