The Leyland National Bus: Amazingly Flawed Engineering!
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- In 1970, a new type of transport bus was introduced to the press in the UK called the Leyland National. It was to be something different than the typical British Bus.
In 1972, the first production units rolled off the assembly line at a new factory Lillyhall, near Workington. It was specifically built only to mass-produce the Leyland National.
The National was a bus that introduced modular construction, was designed by a famous auto stylist, and took some ideas from the American GM New Look Bus. However, even though it may have had many good intentions, the design and engineering processes that went into developing the National were flawed. Sometimes very flawed. And that is what we look at in this video.
The National was also supposed to have been produced in large numbers for the UK's export markets. However, sales outside the UK were poor and their largest order was for 450 buses for Caracas, Venezuela.
UPDATE - ADDITIONAL INFO:
In the last image of the video, there's a National in a river, but at the time that I made the video, the story of what happened was not known. Someone made a comment providing information on the cirucmstances that led to the bus ending up in the water. Here it is below:
From: @user-zr2zp7ek4p
In response to my post about the Leyland National in the river on the Ribble Buses Facebook group, several people commented on it with the following information. The National was allocated to the Ribble depot at Blackburn, and was working the 244 route from Blackburn to Bury via Rawtenstall. The location is the River Irwell at Bury Rd in Rawtenstall, the driver swerved to avoid an animal in the road. No date has been given, but looking at the photo I would say late '70s.
Thank you to whoever provided this comment!
About 7,000 Leyland National buses were built. Production ceased in 1985.
#leylandbus #buses #british #leylandtruck #transportationhistory #transport #transportation #rapidtransit #vehicles #vehicledesign #engineering #mechanicalengineering #automotivehistory #automotivedesign
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The Ribble bus in the river was one belonging to their Blackburn depot. It was 457 NTC 637M and was travelling to Rochdale on their 244 Preston to Rochdale service on the afternoon of the 16th November 1984. The accident occurred very close to Rawtenstall town centre when it ran through a wall and belly flopped into the river due to excessive speed, which the driver couldn't correct. To prove the Nationals strength, no windows were broken, and the engine was still running when the rescue services arrived. It was recovered to Ribble's Burnley depot for damage assessment. It was deemed a repairable project, but due to it being nearly eleven years old, it was withdrawn from service and stripped for usable parts. Hope this is of interest.
Ah, thank you for that great info!!! Much appreciated. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A footnote to the Leyland National story - the modular body design was promoted for rail use in the UK and abroad. A number of prototype vehicles were built, leading to several fleets of (moderately unpopular) trains operating in the UK, some of which were only taken out of use relatively recently. Search for the BRE-Leyland Railbus for more information on the prototypes (including at least one that ran in the USA), British Rail Classes 140, 141 and 142 which used Leyland National body parts, and the related Classes 143 and 144 that used a similar construction but with bodies sourced from another bus manufacturer.
I grew up near Leyland and still remember seeing empty bus chassis being driven around the roads in the area, with a very cold looking driver sitting atop the frame with no bodywork to protect him from the elements! Thanks for the interesting video! :)
Hello! Thank you for the very interesting info about the National - those open chassis driving around must have been a sight to see! Yes - there were a couple of railbuses based on the National that made it to the USA - in fact, I've done a video about LEV-2, which ended up being scrapped a few years ago after suffering at a trolley museum in Connecticut! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I was going to point you to that!
The 155 and 153 Super Sprinters were also built by Leyland and use quite a bit of National construction techniques.
Duh, of course! I blame the hypnotic effect of the Pacer's 4-wheel underframes on jointed track for the memory lapse! ;)
@@JeffreyOrnstein Yes, these railbus units in the UK, was known as Pacers, having only the past few years been discontinued, and it did amaze me some of them actually ended up State Side.
They did have quite a poor ride rep, and if I remember right, one is in preservation at The Midland Railway, in Ripley, Derbyshire.
I absolutely hated them, when I had to use them on my many trips in to Yorkshire (Northern Rail).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(British_Rail)
It's probably one of the best designs of buses at its time. One of the first buses to use air suspension all round, a turbo charged engine, low floor design and consideration into the drivers ease of use. Rust protection was second to none, as was build quality. Yes the 510 engine wasn't the greatest option to go for but that was it's biggest flaw. It paved the way for a new generation of bus designs used by other manufacturers and to date the only bus built in its own amazing, automated factory. I'm not biased, I look after and run 3 Mk1s and 3 Mk2s.
Hello! Thank you for your experience with the National - very interesting to hear the extra detail! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@JeffreyOrnstein it's biggest flaw was 1) the engine choice. 2) it was so forward-thinking and radical in design that bus operators didn't know how to look after them. The 6 we own, most of the original spec engine still in them, and one managed 30 years in service! New buses won't get anywhere near a service life of 30 years. We're based at lillyhall literally round the corner from the original factory and still have contact with ex leyland plant workers and management.
@@user-ux4ld5ih8x Thanks for the info! Yes, I'm now aware of the 510 and its shortcomings...I wasn't aware of it when I made the video. So now I know!
@@JeffreyOrnsteinIn honesty the 510 wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. The fixed head scared mechanics, but it rarely gave trouble. The bottom bearings, ends and mains, were easy to change but were often neglected. I own a MK1 and have been involved with them since the year 2000 in preservation. I travelled on them from the age of 0 to 17 almost daily. They proved themselves to be a very reliable, durable and long lasting design - once operators got used to them.
My experience of the Leyland National in Australia, purchased in used condition by my employer. A Leyland National, fully imported, British manufacture, Headless 500ci rear engine laying on its side, it ran well but problems soon surfaced. The air filter was positioned in such a way that it could not be serviced!! It looked to me like it had never been serviced since new, also its connection to the body was never right and a gap of 25mm was present right behind the rear wheels where dirt and water could enter the filter. The engine soon began using oil so we dropped it out for repair. As I began taking it apart I could see that this motor was designed to be put together in several different ways, ie in the bus it lay on its side, in a cabover truck the exhaust manifold would be away from the driver, in a boat the flywheel would be at the other end, a brilliant design. But, they used 17mm nuts on M10 bolts making it difficult to get a spanner onto many of the bolts, but why? When the Japanese proved beyond all doubt that 14mm was sufficient to do the job!!!
There was a problem with the cooling also, maybe it is OK in Britain to recycle the warm air from the rear of the bus, through the radiator and back to the engine bay but in our climate, this is not ‘best practice’. The rear engine Bedford and the Nissan had a semicircular guard between the engine and the radiator, bringing air in through a side vent, through the radiator and out through screens in the back panels. We did the same with this one fitting a fan with the opposite pitch.
This bus was used while # 5 was off the road, the driver approached me about a strange noise that occurred on a Left turn, “Take me out and show me,” I said, so we drove around the Redbank Railway Workshops, all Left turns.
Nothing happened, she was about to go Right and back to our shop, “No, go around again,” She had to brake a little harder and swung Left at such late notice, I was standing on the step with the door open listening for this noise, looking down at the front wheel that was not turning, not even on the road, as the bus righted after the turn we got this, ‘Aeroplane touchdown noise’, arrk “That’s it,” she said. The problem, on the Left rear an Air suspension control rod had broken pushing that Air Bag fully up, while on the Right rear one of the tires was flat, at the front an anti roll bar 50mm thick was simply picking the wheel right up off the road. Ted from down under.
Wow, thanks for all of this info on your experience with the National in Australia! Very interesting!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
You can’t say the vehicle wasn’t rigid.
That's awesome. I know the PTC Vic had them but they kept one which doesn't come out.
@@JeffreyOrnstein
even though they had their problems, many had long lives lasting over 25 years, a coach company in scotland ran them right up untill 2017
Hello! Interesting to hear how long some have lasted!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Yes they were very popular with second hand operators. Guess because they were easy to maintain.
The Scottish Prison Service ran three, converted into cellular accommodation for prisoner transport.
We had them in the South Wales Valley Lines until very recently 2021?, up until Transport For Wales took over the trains..
Many… meaning those that didn't have any quality problems.
In the mid 1980s I used to ride home from school by bus. It would usually be either an Eastern Counties Bristol VR, Bristol RE or Leyland National Mk1. The Nationals were R & S registration with short roof pods most of the time. On only a couple of occasions an early National wirh long roof pod on an L registration ran the bus service I used to get. On rare occasions did a National Mk2 with no roof pod run.
The National Mk1 with the short roof pod was my favourite. As a 10 to 13 year old I was taken by the crisp and well thought out design of the interior of the phase 2 Mk1. The long pod version had an older look to it inside I found. The noise of the Leyland 510 engine was the other thing I remember fondly. The 510 had a very distinctive clatter at idle and a memorable whirring whooshing noise as the bus pulled away. The only other bus that came close in terms of distintive engine noise for me was the London Transport MCW Metrobus double deckers I used to ride to and from university in the early 1990s. It's the National though that's my alk time favourite bus.
Hello! Thank you for your experience with the National. Very interesting! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
One thing that helped the National last as long as it did, was that whilst not "low floor" by modern standards (due to the step inside), they were still low by the standards of many other single deckers of the period and later, and therefore gave good access even at a time true low floor buses were coming along. Add in that the air suspension could be retrofitted for kneeling, along with the wide entrance, and you've got a bus that whilst not accessible by modern standards (or even standards of the newest buses at the time) was still more accessible compared to many newer buses that were still around in the late 90s and early 2000s (and remember that for every person in a wheelchair who needs a totally flat floor and ramp, there many older or walking disabled people who will benefit from a lower step even without full wheelchair access). A company where I live ran some heavily refurbished Nationals calling them "easy access" and it's hard to dispute compared to the more modern Dennis Darts (with a higher floor) that they were running in competition with. Even when the Darts were replaced by Low Floor versions, these still lacked the wheelchair ramps found on modern buses, so by todays standards their accessibility was not perfect.
The heating system issues with the National are something that have plagued British buses for a long time, keeping them warm in winter and cool in summer, and many radical ideas have failed. Most recently the issue has been more about cooling in summer, where there has been a tendency to remove opening windows in favour of "air cooling" which can't cope on hot days. Ultimately though the approach taken with the National, combined with old school floor level radiators, has proven to be pretty effective and has seen widespread use by many manufacturers. Perhaps the most obvious was Optare, who pretty much revived and improved the National's original system to good effect, giving their Delta (and variants) and replacement Excel, the same iconic rear pod as the National.
Finally, towards the end of their lives, there were a number of programs to update and life extend older Nationals. The two most common upgrades were replacing the original Leyland 510 engines with Volvo power units, and also replacement of things like bell pushes, flooring and step edges along with painting grab poles to bring them up to the latest DPTAC (pronouned "dip-tak") standards for accessibility (as said above, the National was already pretty good in that regard). Fitting better heating systems was also common. Some also included bodywork changes, particularly updated headlight clusters. The most radical was the "Greenway" from East Lancs Coachbuilders, which as well as new engines, stripped them down to the shell and replaced the body panels, giving a modern appearance (usually combined with an "Irish Plate" which unlike standard UK number plates doesn't have an obvious year, so to most people it looks like a new bus). These were particularly common in London, the two biggest operators being London Transport for their "Red Arrow" services in central London, and Greenline who operated in the suburbs and beyond. One of my local operators, Midland Fox (now Arriva Midlands) gained quite a number of the old Greenline Greenways and kept them well into the 2000s.
Hello! Thank you for your detailed comment on the features of the National - very interesting info. Thanks for watching!
Hi Jeffrey, As an American making a video about a British bus you did very well, but you probably were not aware of the National's biggest flaw, the awful Leyland 510 engine, which was probably the worst engine ever produced by Leyland. The Mark 2 had the Leyland 680 engine , which was one of Leyland's best engines or the TL11 which was developed from the 680. The National was one of the first buses in the UK to have full air suspension and it did lean alarmingly on bends and corners, yet another flaw. They were easy to drive with a good driving position.
.
Hello! Thank you for the extra information on the National!! Unfortunately, I wasn't really aware of the 510 engine....an oversight on my part, I guess. Well, I tried.
Additionally, I do recall that one National was fitted with a Detroit Diesel engine in a test, and it sounded just like an American GM New Look bus....I once saw a video of it, but can't recall which bus company did this test.
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein you might be interested to learn that Perth Western Australia ran several Leyland B21s with GM 6-71s which were all sold off to a family run bus operator in Sydney which enabled me to ride in a couple.
They were withdrawn and sold early by TransPerth due to high fuel consumption!
@jamesfrench7299 not many full size buses around with good fuel consumption lol
@@jamesfrench7299 An American engine guzzling fuel? LOL.
@@JeffreyOrnstein not helped by the Allison gearboxes which had lots of slip on takeoff.
I love the sound of the National 1s the "Clack Clack Clack Clack" sound and I swear Some of the East Kent Drivers would wait until people were walking behind the bus then put their foot down and Napalm them LoL! The amount of times I was covered in exhaust from a national I've lost count! If you want to learn about more British Buses there is another channel on RUclips called JakeSCOC he does loads of stuff from Classic Bus Histories to different "Bus Bits"! Loved this video thanks
Thanks for your experience with the Nationals! Will check out that channel! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@edbridges1164 I would not say they had a clack clack clack sound more a phut phut phut due to the weird injrctor sealing on the 510 engine. That was if they could start from cold as the cold start rarely worked and the air throttle meant cold stargting at idle throttle was the norm.
That noise was mint
@@user-mv6li7fi8e true I've watched a video of a bunch of South Riding Nationals starting from cold and let's just say the sky around them certainly wasn't clear! LoL! The National 2s were an Oddity to East Kent they had the ex Demonstrator "Q255GRW" and Stagecoach bought one in I think a "JCK" the National 2s seemed to not smoke as much! The National 1s could be Heavy Smokers! I believe the "Clack Clack" sound was the Fan Belt at the back
When I was going out with a girl who lived three miles away from me, I used to hope there was a National on the last Blackwood. I could hear the turbo whine in time to get onto the bus stop.
I hated driving the National.
The 501 engine was very unreliable and noisy. The heating system was poor blowing warm air down from the roof, hot air rises doesn't it?
They were overcomplicated, we often had to kick the engine cover to get the engine to start. There was a cheap and nasty safety switch behind the cover that often failed.
I am glad I have a 1963 front engined double decker, a superb bus that does 10mpg.
Hello! Thank you so much for your experience with the National! Very interesting!!! I guess it really was a flawed design, LOL. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Should have suited Brisbane passengers with air conditioning
The ventilation system was designed so that a curtain of warm air would keep the windows free of condensation, and is much less fierce than floor mounted radiators. Modern air conditioning systems are always ceiling mounted after all
@@AndreiTupolev The heating was crap. I well remember being too hot and cold at the same time. And the basic bus seats had no padding and a stupid bar that dug in your back.
Over here in The Netherlands there were several bus companies that got a few for testing. Expectations were high, disapointed all companies were at the end of the trials. Point is, the British automotive industry went through a very rough time. Perhaps you know about the power of the unions and the many strikes that took place around the period the National was developed and introduced. I take the Morris Marina as an example what in fact was the result of failing leadership and an overly powerful union climate in the UK. The Morris Marina probably was the worst ever car produced in the UK. Due to this situation Leyland couldn’t effectively compete anymore with European manufacturers and even upcoming manufacturers from Japan like Toyota, Nissan and Honda. Halfway the 70’s it was too late for BL to survive, even when the company was nationalised. The demise of the company took down all divisions, also those that could have been saved like the bus and truck divisions. These divisions were taken over by DAF (truck division) from Holland and Volvo (bus division) from Sweden, cleverly using Leyland inventions and specialties. As for the car division, BL even used Japanese know how by simply changing the badges on what were essentially Honda products. These Hondas in disguise marked the end of what was once the most brilliant industry in the UK. So sad to see that all happen. I owned three Leyland buses that were used by the Dutch public transport that was more or less owned and controlled by NS, the Dutch railways. These were essentially Leyland Leopards as for the running parts and bodied by local companies like Verheul (temporarily owned by Leyland like DAB from Denmark) and Den Oudsten from Woerden. Both out of business now. Our three Leopards still exist, one is even used on a daily basis. The other two are on static display at the National Bus Museum in Hoogezand. Greetings from Hekelingen, The Netherlands. Bye, Willem.
Hello! Wow, that is a lot of great information about the National and its situation in The Netherlands - very interesting! Thank you for watching from Europe and for your comment!
A very interesting video, the National was forced on the fleets of the National Bus Company with a choice of red or green livery.
In the 90s quite a lot of Nationals were re bodied by a company called Willowbrook using the original frames, replacing steel outside panels with aluminium.
The National 2 was a much better bus but it came too late.
I much appreciate the time and trouble you take to make these videos.
🏴
Yes! The National made its debut not too long after the NBC came into being. It's unfortunate that all those great liveries were replaced with either poppy red or leaf green. I think the Lynx had replaced the National, from what I have read. Thanks again for your informative comments!!
your thinking of east lancs coachbuilders & the leyland national greenway
@@kaolla1000 Yes, old age getting to me.
Willowbrook never touched Nationals. It was East Lancs who did the Nationals, known as the Greenway. Willowbrook were more well known for rebodying Leopards, mostly with the Warrior for bus work, but also the Crusader as a Coach. Unlike the Greenways which were pretty successful, Willowbrook's rebuilds didn't last long since Willowbrook bodies were rustbuckets, and the Leopard wasn't great for bus work due to it's high floor. Funnily I actually work on the site of the former Willowbrook factory, now a retail park.
If you were going to travel in a single deck bus, during the 1970's and 1980's, then you know that it was most likely to be a Leyland National. During the 1980's Crosville converted some of their Nationals, by replacing the Leyland engine for a Gardener engine.
Hello! Thank you for relaying your experience with the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
In England yes, but until de regulation in Scotland it was mostly Alexander Y types on leyland aec albion seddon Bristol ford or Bedford chassis
Very well done feature.
The shorter roof pod was introduced in 1975 during the first National's production run ready for the phase 2 of the National 1 in 1976 which addressed issues like weight distribution by relocating the batteries in the front overhang under the driver.
Four gearbox options were offered. Four or five speed electro - pneumatically operated semi automatic gearbox or a fully automatic version of those. A ZF two speed full automatic transmission was also offered but rarely taken up, Melbourne with 30 ZF examples.
Thanks for the info, very interesting details!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I went school on these buses in Canberra Australia through the late 70's .Always remember the huge cloud of exhaust smoke as they took off.
LOL, must have not been healthy, either. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
One of those lovely memories to chuckle at ! These remind me of the Dennis dart a little, soon there will only be quiet clean low emission and electrics, I know that's good but it was nice to have louder raucous diesel engines, very soon we won't have the old Renault diesels anymore , the new electrics are very nice though ! .
Brought back a lot of memories from my childhood in 1970s-80s Britain, did this video - thank you! Particular memories for me was visiting my Grandma on Saturdays in this bus. Unlike the big double-deckers I took everywhere else, her house on the distant new-build outskirts of Sheffield was only serviced by Nationals. I remember sitting near the front and, as a bus-obsessed kid, being rather frustrated by the very high window line - pointedly and very aptly highlighted here. A small kid sitting on those seats had no chance of seeing any street-level action through the window. Sit towards the back of the bus, you say? In the early 80s, that was where the smokers sat, and the secondhand-smoke-induced nausea from B&H chain-smokers in the rear stains yellow my memories of my regular trips to Mosborough to this day. Smoking was only banned on South Yorkshire buses - along with the rest of the UK - in 1992.
The second memory trigger was the photo of the articulated buses. As a kid, going on one of these "bendy buses" in Sheffield town centre was the highlight of a trip to town - although this probably only occurred for me a couple of times before these buses were disappeared. Only later when the idea was reintroduced (I was on such a bus just yesterday in Brussels!) did I learn that the versions you mentioned were quickly retired for very dodgy engineering whose source you explain well. As soon as I saw the first photo you show - taken in Sheffield near the Midland Railway station with the University of Sheffield Student Union's "Nelson Mandela" building in the background (a name that was still a controversial political statement in Thatcher's sanctions-resistant early-80s Britiain - and that's why they used it!) immediately brought the memories flooding back. Thatcher, of course, would have her revenge on South Yorkshire Transport's socialist mindset" of frequent and affordable public transportation, with its subsidised cheap fares and technical innovations (not all successes, as we can see), but that's a story for another day and has nothing to do with engineering.
Thank you for this video, Sir!
Wow, great comment, very detailed with lots of memories and info. Glad you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
From 1969 to 1975 I worked in the Leyland Truck and Bus Central Engineering design office on various projects which included the National Bus so I feel that I must congratulate you on producing a very well informed video which includes a number of items about which even I was not aware. Nice work! I will just add that the original styling was carried out by David Bache of Rover but, at the last minute, Sir Donald Stokes the CEO decided to call in Michelotti instead to give the bus a revised look. The initial vehicle design was for three length of 10, 11 and 12 metres but, for the Michelotti redesign, these were replaced by two lengths of approximately10.3 and 11.3 metres to better match the seating pitch. The later 10.9 metre was, as you said, a hybrid of the two. The bus was originally designed to take the 680 engine and the mistaken decision to change this to the less refined 510 is suitably described in some of the other comments. The overhead heating system inevitably lead to warm heads and cold feet: a strange decision aimed at simplifying the floor design but not the best one.
Hello! Great to hear from someone who worked on the National! Interesting info on the original design of the bus. Wish I knew that when I was making the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
An interesting addition to the National's story, Jeffrey - thanks. These buses were a regular feature throughout my childhood in North-West England in the 70s, taking me to and from school, out and about in and around the town I grew up in, excursions out into the countryside with my parents, etc, so I'll always have a soft spot for them 😊
Hello! Glad you liked the video! Thanks for your memory of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
It is fascinating and refreshing to hear a person in North America talking about British buses with such enthusiasm and authority. Jeffrey sounds like my husband with an American accent!
Thank you so much, Melanie!! I very much appreciate your nice comment!!! Thank you for watching!!
I’ve just found this video. What the heck is an American doing being interested in this thing, which were so ubiquitous in the 70s and 80s and made so many of us feel travel sick on hot days, being swung about on the back seats, with that rumbling engine beneath? United Counties Number 29 Luton Bus Station to Dunstable via Marsh Farm, or 31 Leagrave to Luton Airport via Marsh Farm. The memories are flooding back. Thanks for a great video.
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video! If you think this is odd, wait until you see my next video....an American doing a topic on a British bus so obscure, it sure will be even stranger. Hopefully you'll stay tuned! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
They were a pretty decent modern bus in the day and while the engine carried on a bit noise wise, it was actually a very smooth running unit which hummed through the cabin rather than vibrate. I always found them impressive in person.
The bus of my childhood, I lived in Midland Red territory and my local garage had quite a few, I can still hear the clatter of the 510 engine, the buses went on to live long lives with the Greenaway project by East Lancs, where a bus was stripped to its main skeleton then re-panelled to update it, also you forgot to mention the B21 which was basically a National Chassis which could be bodied by other body builders, once again a fantastic video, well presented, thank you
Hello! Thanks for the additional info! If there's something interesting abou the Greenway or B21, it may make a good video in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Happy late 4th, Jeffery. Thanks as always
Hello Jason!! Happy 4th of July to you, too!! And as always, thank you for watching!!!
One of the best sounding and distinctive engine sounds ever , the mk2 sounded nice as well with its deep growl
Interesting! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Absolutely, I was about to make the same comment. The 510 engine had an unmistakeable sound, like no other. I also remember watching them start from cold, they would crank for minutes on end (there are videos of them being started on YT). I took a journey on a MK1 one recently at a bus show and the engine sound took me right back to my school days. The MK2 buses did sound more powerful and throaty, somehow less strained.
Great little documentary and as as always well researched and presented.
Kindest regards from London
Hello! I appreciate your very nice comment!!! Thank you for watching from London, and for your comment!
Born in '74 I loved this bus' styling as growing lad. Great video Jeffrey👍
I'm really glad you liked the video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I loved Leyland Nationals as a kid - the seemed so much faster than the other ones, or at least certainly sounded faster! I think the irony of their design is that BL did loads of testing in extreme environments - the arctic and deserts, plus wind tunnels etc, but the one thing they didn't do was to test the prototypes in real- life day to day bus operation! So there were lots of snags, and the engine choice of the 501 engine was probably a mistake. On the plus side, the body design probably was a complete success. The mk2 version with the 0680 engine and lots of issues fixed was a seriously impressive bus, but it came too late and they didn't sell very many.
Wow, that's very interesting to hear about their testing practices!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hi. ONCE I TRAVELLED AND THE BACK WAS ON FIRE. SMOLE COOMING FROM THE MOTORS AND VENTS AT THE BACK.
I used to travel on the leyland national in the 70s and 80s on short local services as a child in Yorkshire. The seating was leather-red on the buses with half doors and orange on those full length. There was backward seating at the front of the bus and a single sideways seat. Some buses had no backwards seats but one long side seat usually orange and a large luggage rack. The half doors had a step up to the back seats for smoking passengers, divided by two glass sheets. Non- smoking at the front. They were spacious and comfortable to ride but the engine noise, particularly on the hills in Yorkshire was extreme and unique. Also, the back of the bus would often get caught as it climbed. I used to enjoy listening to the belt at the back of the bus when it stopped, for passengers. It also had a particular sound.. There was plenty of standing room with leather holders hanging from the ceiling. These buses were painted in the National red colour scheme with large NATIONAL symbol and lettering, They then were painted in the adopted West Yorkshire PTE Green and Cream. Red suited them better. The seats were also changed from leather to a harsher brown and orange chequered uncomfy surface with brown leather trim. The backwards seating , the glass partitions, half doors and non smoking area disappeared.
Hello! Oh my gosh! Very interesting recollection of riding the Nationals, wow! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Hi everyone, just to let you know the Jamaica 🇯🇲 Omnibus Service (JOS) purchased 160 Leyland National (MK1) buses back in the 70's (1973-1976 approximately) These were the N buses from N1 to N160. The first 10 units were semiautomatic and the rest were full automatic. However from the start, those buses were not suitable for the tough and hot Jamaican conditions. Furthermore the mechanics had a hard time maintaining them and parts were hard to come by. Therefore they had to change to a different brand of buses. They bought Albion Clydesdale and Guy Victory(approximately 100 units).
Hello! Thank you for the additional info about the Jamaican Leyland Nationals! Didn't know how many they had!
Hi Jeff, thanks for your reply. There's one more thing I left out about those buses. Because of the vandalism in that country, the passenger seats were being cut up. Therefore JOS had no choice but to order those 160 units with TOUGH FIBREGLASS seats.
Thank you for another great video. I have fond childhood memories of these. Noisy, smokey and a bumpy ride, but they had some sort of character and charm that I always liked!
Glad you liked it!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember these! I also recall the Leyland Lynx, which was the successor to this and the window issue was quite cleverly designed with the same length all the way from front to back but with added decals at the back, so the windows could be lower at the front.
They also sounded very distinct! I remember when they were replaced and still miss them as they were kind of amazing vehicles. The ones I used to ride were Cardiff Bus/Bws Caerdydd, and some were Rhondda and Caerphilly Transport.
My father used to drive these for Cardiff Bus and later Bebbs, along with Optare Clippers and Leyland Olympians & Titans. :D
Wow, nice memories of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Cardiff had some ZF Nationals!
@@jamesfrench7299 That is very cool! :D
I also remember that when I lived in the Ffynon Taff area, there was a company called IBT, or Islwyn Borough Transport, and they used to run Leyland Leopards. They were a baby blue/white combination and although a bit of a nightmare to get onto as a kid, they were literally coaches, so they were ridiculously comfortable. I also recall the engine on those was very unique in that it sounded amazing!
And the Leyland Olympian was also one of my favourites as they had some amazing turbo-whine. Absolutely amazing old beasts. :D
That was a proper geeky synopsis of the Leyland National. Well Done! ;)
LOL, glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I’m not surprised the SBG (Scottish Bus Group) used the older and more reliable Leyland Leopard Alexander Y type as the default single deck bus in Scotland although some municipal bus companies such as GGPTE (Greater Glasgow Passenger Transport Executive) and LRT (Lothian Regional Transport) in Edinburgh bought some National 1s It wasn’t until the introduction of the National 2 we began to see SBG buying them. Barrhead (small town near Glasgow) independent operator McGill’s had a sizeable fleet of National 1 & 2s, even a Danish built articulated National 2 which was a partnership between Leyland & Danish coach builder DAB.
Interesting to read about the Nationals in Scotland! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
An excellent video which I thoroughly enjoyed. Good memories of these buses from my childhood in Berkshire and Buckinghamshire. It was a treat if a driver had rolled up the blind behind the cab seat so the passenger on the bench seat behind could see what was going on! Great sounding engine if incredibly smokey, wouldn't be welcome in a low emission zone today! Most had been replaced by the time I came to drive buses but I enjoyed driving a preserved example a friend owned. The rail bus equivalent has only recently been retired although some other older bus-derived classes built in the 1980s can still be found on the UK rail network. If you haven't got a copy Beyond Reality by Doug Jack is well worth a read from a Leyland insiders perspective. Other books are of course a available! I was also a great fan of the National's intended successor the 'B60' Lynx. But that's another story I guess! Keep up the good work and thank you for posting the video. Matt (from the UK)
Hello! Glad you liked it and thanks for your memories! Yes, I actually do have a copy of Beyond Reality! Great book! Maybe a video should be made of it!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Perhaps the "Business Computer" would have been better marketed as "the probably bigest Limousine in the World"😂
LOL, yes, maybe that would have worked! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Great video.
In the early '70s, I used to take the bus to school and back.
One afternoon, I was waiting at the bus stop when a 'Midland Red' Leyland National appeared. I had never seen anything like it. Compared with the BMMO S17 (single-decker) or D9 (double-decker) buses that I was used to, this was like a space-ship.
Glad you liked it!! Thanks for your memory of the Nationals! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Fishwick's of Leyland probably got their vehicles cheap as being demonstrators (something they had done with many preceding Leyland models). Ribble too were a test bed for Leyland products
Ah, very interesting...didn't know that! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I had no Idea there were so many versions of this, however they were being phased out when I was a kid. Great video. Enjoyed watching.
I'm really glad you liked it! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
At the National Bus launch at the CV Motor Show in Earl's Court, they had a version for use in major disasters. It included several stretchers lying flat which could enter and leave via the opening rear window. It included various medical facilities, and a CCTV camera on a pole. I remember my dad reaching over and using the camera to zoom in on a woman working an adjacent stand.
Yes, you are right! It was called the Lifeliner. Didn't realized I missed that until after uploading, unfortunately. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember regularly travelling in those Nationals when commuting to college with my fellow students. Our preferred raised section at the rear was right over the engine and it would get really hot there during the summer.
Hello! Thank you for your own experience with the National!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
And I'll add, they were running in the late 90s as well
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Oh nice. I used to drive them when I first started driving coaches. We had some second hand ones our company bought. They were ok, a bit noisy, but that's why they put the engine at the back nearer the passengers! Not sure about the heating as you mentioned in the video, it never seemed to work if I remember right. The engines used to explode though, throwing piston rods out the side, resulting in a trail of oil down the road. Someone told me way back, it was because they designed it with the engine laying on it's side to keep the floor height low, but the oil used to pool to one side going round corners. Also the simple riveted construction enabled them to be repaired quickly in a bus garage so they didn't need to go away to a specialist bodyworks place, quick and simple keeping the vehicle on the road earning money. Anyway a nice look back at these numerous buses. All the best Dave.
Hello! Thank you for your interesting comment on your experience driving the Nationals! Guess it had both good points and...not so good. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I saw one explode in a bus station. A tyre fitter for the bus company had just said to me that engines about to go and it did in a big way.
Fascinating. As a school kid I used to take buses every day and Fishwick were the best because they drove faster than the competition, Ribble. The sight of the green bus when I was waiting at the bus stop was always great because it would be an exciting ride.
Thanks for your memories of the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember well travelling on the Leyland National as a young man and was struck by it's modern design and the smoothness of its transmission and engine. The pod on the rear of the early versions was to draw in air for cooling the engine and for heating of the interior. It was a shame it didn't continue as a passenger bus but continued as a train in the north of the UK known as a Pacer train using the same body and engine but with a redesigned transmission and a twin axle boggie at either end of the carriage.
Thanks for the extra info on the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
And there was the infamous Pacer - a commuter train based on a National bus body on a chassis based on what had been a 4-wheeled rail research chassis. Developed in the 1980s as a cheap stop gap for British Rail - still in service in the early 2020s. So bad that many people ended up 'loving' it - uncomfortable, noisy, but it worked. Formally known as the class 140 to 144s.
Oh yes, the Pacer! Maybe a subject for another video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Nationals had a massive floor carrying out exhaust outlet test during overnight shift
Nothing wakes surrounding area of neighbours up faster than a national peak reving through the night
Hello! LOL! Thank you for the additional detail on the national!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember these as a child, the national 2 looked out of this world compared to the buses they replaced by my local operator which came from the 1950s .Great video
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
That you for this insight into these busses, I remember them on our local services, replacing the AEC Merlin/Swifts (SM) and even RF's on some routes. They had a very distinctive sound especially when sitting in the back and the ride in the seats behind the rear wheels could be quite violent on sharp corners.
I'm really glad you liked the video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
JYO751N was originally one of the Midland Bank mobile banks, later converted for passenger use and re-engined with a Volvo unit. I drove it in the late 90s and it was unusual for having a fully automatic gearbox, compared to the usual semi-automatic.
It felt like a new bus, so tight and little clatter.
Hello! Thanks for the extra info on the Midland Bank National - very interesting to hear! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Thanks for the informative video. They were a bus from my childhood and I have a soft spot for them. As mentioned by others, it's fascinating that they were used to produce the Pacer trains too.
Hello! Thank you for your thought on the National! Yes, those Pacers!! A couple of Leyland railbuses made it to the USA for testing. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I liked the National They were very noisy and smoked a lot but never got stuck in snow unlike the other busses in the fleet. There was a 1 in 7 hill ( 14% ) going to work and one year the gritters were on strike. The driver said he was not sure we would make it with about a foot of snow but would try in low gear. We pushed our way through with snow up to the windscreen and made it with no problem. In later years the doors caused problems and the centre door ones had them removed, a micro switch on the engine bay door used to need a kick on the door before they would start, also the air suspension got none existent, they were pretty old by then so overall outlasted many other busses.
Hello! Thank you for relaying your interesting experience with the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I was a passenger on a National that got stuck in a deep snow once. The driver put it in gear and floored it. Nothing happened and after 5 mins I got fed up and got up to tell him that merely flooring the throttle and spinning the wheels will never work. I got within a few feet of the platform when I realised how wrong I was. It came out of that drift at warp 8! Just like a kids pushalong toy when you set the wheels spinning and drop it on the ground! The driver explained that the combined effort of the wheels digging down and the heat and weight of the engine meant they acted like giant milling cutters, cutting through the snow and ice until they touched something solid. As a driver a few years ago I too got my Enviro 400 bus stuck in snow and used this technique to free it.
@@chrislee5981 Great to hear it worked. I had a driver try that with a leopard and it just burnt the tread off the tyres, with no weight of the engine over the back end, other drivers had asked eveyone to move to the back and that had worked too
Thanks always interesting and informative 😊
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Great video, well done. The National was a horrible bus to ride on as a passenger. It was OK if you sat at the back, but as this was usually for smoking passengers you would have other issues to worry about. I didn't mind having one on a short hop in to town, but if I was going on a longer trip and a National appeared I would always find something else to do for 20 or 30 minutes and hope the next service produced a Bristol VR or Leyland Leopard. The coach seated variants were more acceptable, but they lacked the plastic shield between the lower and upper decks which was present on the bus seated ones in order to stop the flying passenger issues discussed in your video. Most operators at the time really wanted a full air-suspension version of the Bristol RE, but as Leyland owned Bristol, they saw to it that the Bristol RE was put out of production to force operators hands. The only exception to this being in Northern Ireland where they flat refused to buy anything but RE's for suburban use and so a limited production run had to be kept open for them to stop losing that business. The National's also had a tendency to twist when going around sharp corners, most notable when looking in your wing mirrors... I've always liked Leyland vehicles, the Leopard (even though brakes appeared to be option...) and the Olympian which was a lovely smooth bus to drive. However I was glad to see the back of Nationals.
I"m very glad you liked the video! Very interesting to hear your experience with the National!! And yes, the RE was a great bus! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
As a former bus driver, i had the pleasure of driving the Leyland National for 3 years. They were a bus drivers dream. Always had to bear in mind the long overhang at the back.
They were a very comfortable bus to drive. The power steering made it a dream. In fact, sometimes, the steering was just a bit too light at times. The only real problem with them, was the thermostat. They would often fail. Heating on in the summer, heating off in the winter. Nothing as a driver you could do about it. The gearbox was first class. The setup we had, was that we could leave the gearbox in fully automatic, or we could change manually.
Passengers used to love travelling on these buses, as they were very smooth, with a nice soft suspension.
Hello! Thanks very much for your experience in driving the National - very interesting!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
When the National first came out I remember a driver (probably transferred from a Bristol RE) complaining that "It goes very well in a straight line, especially when you don't want it to!" The RE had a Rear Engine as the name suggests, but the gearbox was mounted ahead of the axle, which gave a much better weight balance. The National had the engine and gearbox behind the axle and without many passengers it could lift its front wheels and lose steering. As a passenger they were very smooth and refined except for the clouds of black smoke, but I preferred the REs especially with Gardner engines. Excellent buses, no wonder Leyland bought them and closed them down. My all-time favourite was the RE coach with the high floor, high speed axle and air suspension, like running down the M1 on a magic carpet.
Ha, literally bought a GM livery Mk1 short model while on holiday/vacation last week. Love this kind of coincidence. Also great informative video, keep up the great work!
Hello! Glad you liked the video!! Must be an awesome model...I was going to put in a picture of a Manchester Mk1, but didn't get to it. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Isn't this the ones used for the pacer trains? You gotta cover that now 😅 Great video bud 👍🏼
Hello! Yes, it is the body used for the Pacers. I've actually done a video on LEV-2, a railbus that had a National body that was tested in the USA. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein oh that's true you did do that one 👌🏽
Thanks for this, one of the most informative videos I've found on the National so far. Great job. Sure, the National gets criticism, what doesn't, but it does have it's band of followers over here in the UK. I love riding them at meets when possible, and enjoy that characteristic diesel knock "crackle".
Hello! Glad you liked the video!! Must be fun to ride a restored National at rallies and meets! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Missed out on the National at yesterday's event, but came away happy after a decent journey in a Cummins engined Olympian instead.
I think that bus-bank would have been a big boon to bank robbers because they could just hijack the thing at gunpoint and there would be no worries about a getaway car.
LOL, that's funny. Perhaps they were a bit more civilized in the UK at that time, so it may have been a practical idea. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
All the cops would have to do is follow the trail of smoke. 😊
We still have mobile banks here, and they don’t get robbed.
As a former NBC manager I well remember the horror with which many of us greeted the National. In its early days the engineers were terrified by its complexity and fuel consumption, the drivers unnerved by how light it was to drive and the passengers alarmed by how fast it could be thrown around by thoughtless drivers. However, everyone could see that it was a quantum leap in terms of ergonomic design, the engineers soon tamed its worst design faults, the drivers soon adapted, and it set the standard for a generation of new buses. It was originally intended to last 12 years, but in the event, many ran for 25 years, often retrofitted with DAF, Volvo or Gardner engines. The real reason it failed to gain wide acceptance outside NBC, or in export markets, is that many operators prefer to support local coachbuilders, and many countries specify a minimum percentage of local content (usually the body), which was not available with an integral vehicle.
Great to hear from a former NBC manager and your experience with the Nationals! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I use to go on them quite a lot operated by my local National Bus Company subsidy, United.They looked quite modern compared with some of the other buses United had.
Hello! Thank you for your experience with the National! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I think the Leyland National was ahead of it's time and a great looking bus.Great piece by the way!
Hello! I'm really glad you liked the video!!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Another great video Jeffery. Unless I missed something here, wouldn’t it have made sense to build a single deck bus based on the long proven double deckers that were being built in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
Glad you liked it - I think the concept of the National was different than the standard double deck chassis of the day, being modular...different construction methods used for variation, would be one reason why they didn't go for a more proven type of a bus. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
if you're gonna say why you like the Mk1 vs the Mk2, perhaps state the differences and why you like one over the other?
Oh sorry....I liked the Mark 1 better because of its esthetics. Just the way it looked. Sorry it wasn't clear in the video. Thanks for watching.
I actually own a Leyland National. I must be mad!
Wow, you are lucky, LOL. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Re the Ribble National in the river. From the buildings etc. I believe the photo is taken in Rawtenstall (Lancashire). To the right, the building with the curved window is on the right side of Bury Rd., with the railway station just out of shot nearer the camera on the same side. The wooden building is still there (now 'Bread Shed') as is the footbridge. To the left of the footbridge is a supermarket (now Tesco). Check out what it looks like now on Google Street View!
Hello! Thank you for the information!!! There was another comment on the location, and I've added it to the description. I'll check what is written, and may add this if it gives more description to it, and I'll give you credit. If that's ok with you. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I forgot to mention in my previous post. Some more information came to light re my request for information on the National in the river. A reply stated "I have it written down as 16th November 1984,fleet number 457 (NTC437M)" Someone else also put a colour photo of it as well.
The National was the first UK bus product to have roll-over and frontal impact testing - there were no rules, no equivalent of NCAP or Euro NCAP. Some of the research was done with ECW bodied Bristol RE's a lighter single decker than the Leyland National. The work was carried out by the Cranfield Impact Centre (located in what is now Cranfield University), using early forms of finite element analysis. This work was fed into the Leyland National design, as well as other Leyland bus designs in the 1970s. Roof collapse in roll over had been a growing issue, causing this work to be commissioned.
Of course, this was part of the government funded bus programme, a system that Leyland and the brands it owned by the late 1960s - it's own name plus AEC, Bristol, Daimler and so on - which was removed in the early 1980s in a move to 'free market economics'. An operator in effect had to pay more to buy a non-approved body / chassis combination under the previous system.
The Leyland National competed with the Bristol RELL and RELH in the UK market, but then in 1980 Leyland decided to close the Bristol factory. The sole product - the double deck Olympian - was transferred to Lillyhall.
The Leyland National also had the infamous '500' engine with monolock design, which had huge potential but was put into mass production before durability testing was complete. The result was huge warranty costs right across the Leyland empire - it was superceded by more reliable Leyland designs. This approach to product development was the primary reason for some of the mistakes.
Wow, thanks for all of the information and thanks for watching!!
We used to call those the “lesser spotted Midland Red”. It was lucky if you ever saw one 😆👍🏻
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Designed like an aircraft, built like a car
LOL, you are probably right! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
A follow up to the National story are the rebodied examples called the National Greenway. Giving extra life to older vehicles during the 1990s and into the 21st century.
Hello! Yes...the Greenway may be a good topic for a future video if there's an interesting story to it. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
my city had the Leyland National bus for public and school when I was at high school . Do remember them as a fine bus to ride in
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
We often went in these Nationals in Leicester. The 98 Thurnby Lodge (AKA The Bandit Bus) was the well known one. My school bus was one for a while before going back to the Elite II
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Hello from the uk, i used to remember riding on these buses in the early 90s in Manchester :)
Hello! Thank you for watching from the UK and for your comment!
Im pretty certain Fishwick & Son was a subsidiary of Ribble Motor Services, one of the largest independent bus companies in the UK. Along with many bus companies, Ribble was subsumed by the National Bus Company with the National itself designed as a standard bus for the NBC.
Thank you for watching and for your interesting comment!
I often caught one of those on my way to school.. one couldn't help but notice the unusual clatter of that engine!
LOL! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I remember them on routes 61, 126, 227 and the modified "Red Arrow" services from London's mainline stations all under London Transport. The red arrows had faster acceleration and missing the mid section seating plus a turnstile alongside the driver with his cash only drop box. The drop box was a perspex box with a funnel atop you dropped your coins into, the driver could see how much you put in and if all well dropped the coins into his cash box and gave you a ticket.
Hello! Thank you for your memory of the National in London! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I used to go to school on one, and Bristol VRs. Unforgettable sound. I can hear it now 😂😂
LOL, must have been an awesome sound! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I worked for Taff Ely council who had the first production automatìc National. That one was not too bad to drive, but the gearchange could be brutal. On a bus depending on high standing loads it was virtually impossible to get an acceptably comfortable upchange with Z.F. 2speed automatic.
Hello! Thank you for the additional info on the National, and how it was to drive one! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
How did it compare to the Metro Scania ?
@@highpath4776 i don't know.I did not work there when they had Metro. Scanias.They had all gone by my tme, but I did here that th
Sorry I excommunicated myself. Apparently0 no one would drive thhe M S s when it was icy or snowing as they were uncontrollable on slippery hills.
@@user-mv6li7fi8e I once found the hill down to Newport town centre - I was driving a 35 year old Morris Minor (I had avoided the hills in the Bargoed area but got caught out on that one, fortunately I was not fully loaded up and descended with care- and it was a dry summer )
SYPTE had "kneeling nationals" way ahead of their time!
Interesting! Didn't see anything about the kneeling ones. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Some clips I’ve never seen before. Thanks I will check the web site out. Surprised you never mentioned leylands insistance of only fitting the 510 engine which was one of the main disputes of the era due to its headless design. Another video perhaps ? Good work.
Glad you liked the video! Yes, you are right, I didn't mention the 510. But perhaps as you said, maybe for another video. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
We had them in Nottingham they were great to ride in smooth and large inside.
Good to hear! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
And the Mk 2 with the L11 engine was for my money the best single decker until the Volvo B10B
Thanks for the info! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Thanks for another pleasantly dictated and interesting video. You've missed one of the most interesting aspects - look up the Pacer, a train initially based on the Leyland National!
I'm really glad you liked it! Oh, yes, the Pacer...maybe that will be for another video!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
My secondary school bus was a leyland national 252 service , i can still hear that noise to this day , how they used to shake n rattle !!!
I love everything British Leyland!!!!!!
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
This is new to me. I wonder if you will do a UK failure of a bus - but one I am very fond of, being from the area that some of them ran in (Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, UK). I ask for the... Albion Lowlander! The first bus I remember from my childhood (Closely followed by Leyland Atlantean's with the infamous "Kissing" Roe bodies - they genuinely looked like they wanted to kiss you! - and WYPTE'S Scania Metropolitan's). The Lowlander was a low-height variant of the highly successful Leyland Titan. The driver compartment was slightly too small, everything was inaccessible for mechanics, the gearboxes could be temperamental and were prone to bodywork damage. But in two companies, they were loved - my native Yorkshire Woollen, where they were liked as a solid all-rounder and East Midlands, who adored them for their SUPERLATIVE hill climbing ability.
Hello! Thank you for your very interesting comment with some nice ideas! I have a few more British bus ideas myself, but I'll look into these that you mention - if I can find enough information and and if there's a really crazy angle to the story, I'll try to do it in the future! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein THE crazy one of course has to be the Guy Wulfrainian , followed by the Daimler Roadliner.
@@highpath4776 Yes! The Wulfrunian is a bus I want to do a video on soon! I do know about it. I know I've read about the Roadliner, but have to look into it more. Thanks.
@@JeffreyOrnstein West Riding in Yorkshire had Wulfunians. They removed 4 seats from the upstairs front because the drivers complained the steering was too heavy with people sitting ahead of the front wheels. They rolled about as well and my scariest ever bus ride was on one that almost overturned on a road junction with adverse camber. It went so far over the body panels scraped the road on the drivers side and left a gouge in the road. It was caused by almost everyone being on that side of the bus. I got off the bus at the stop just after the junction and saw the damage.
@@cedarcam Thanks for this account!! I might like to use it in the video, just as a first-hand experience of riding in a Wulf. I will give you credit if you want. I only see "cedarcam", but if you want your actual name used, let me know. Or if you do not want this used, it's ok too, and I won't!
Happy 6th of July thumbs up great video figured that the Brits had plenty of single level busses,the double Deckers are just what everyone expects to dee as traditional Brits busses
Hello Jeff...happy belated holiday as well! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Spot the disproportionate influence on design of the transport unions in the 1970s; bus driver survives the crash, everyone else is a mangled mess of bodies or crushed to death.
But, the passengers may spend 10-15-20 mins per day on the bus. The driver may spend 8 hours every day. The chances of him/her being involved in an accident are far greater.
LOL, very interesting to consider! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@nedseagoon5101 OK, so it's ok to sacrifice the lives of your customers, the ones who pay for the business and even the bus itself indirectly because the driver is there more often. The driver is also the only one on the bus who has the ability to cause the crash that kills his/her passengers too.
@@SirKenchalot Yes. It’s all costed. It’s business. It’s not a Leyland thing. Most companies do this. It’s not new. Cost of R&D/modifications V compensation payouts.
@@nedseagoon5101 Says the guy who gets his economic lessons from HollyWood movies. It's not the cost of research versus compensation, it's the aims and outcomes of research and development. They spent money on research but their goal was to save the unionized worker and sacrifice the paying public.I agree it's not a Leyland thing as you'll find similar strategies in place across the West. During the outbreak of a certain virus recently, many unions wouldn't let their drivers drive in case the poor things got the sniffles though the consequential inconvenience or loss of income and provision of services that resulted was of no interest to them.
The Leyland National Bus was not that flawed as it became the standard single Deck bus in al its forms for the National Bus Company in the UK and was purchased by the West Midlands PTE, Mersy Side PTE, Greater Manchester PTE, Isle of Man Transport, the Scottish Bus Company, London Transport, a lot of Council owned and private bus companues in the UK and many companies abroad and operated successfully so not sure why you believe it was flawed
Hello! Well, it was the details in its design that could have made it a much better bus than it was. Plus it was never able to achieve its goal to be produced in large numbers for export. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein The thing is not many British Buses ever got exported abroad in this period the 1970's but where I live in Birmingham the West Midlands both Midland Red a National Bus Company bus company division and the West Midlands PTE purchased hundreds of them including a batch for the West Midlands PTE that had luxury coach seats fitted into a standard Leyland National body for limited stop express bus services and Private Hire duties. When the WMPTE took over parts of the Midland Red area in the West Midlands quite a large number of Midland Red Leyland Nationals transferead to the WMPTE and for some years it was the only single deck bus that UK Bus companies could buy in large amounts as the only other single decker the Metro Cammel built Metro Scannier never caught on and they did not build many
@@peterwilliamallen1063 If I had been midland red I would have transferred all Nationals and kept the S10s.
My friend used to like new buses and thought the Leyland Nationals were great. However when I was working with them the engineers reported that things like the lift pump for the fuel were troublesome- particulary in hilly areas. As NBC had shares in the project the vehicle indeed was forced on subsidaries - many of which would have preferred from a cost perspective Bristol REs. As Nationals were brought in ( at quite high prices) older Reliances and Leopards were sold off - these often ended up with private operators who were able to undercut contract prices for a lot of industrial places - power stations , coal mines with three shifts a day and the "commuter easy boarding" did not really apply to those kind of services.
I think you should have given an honourable mention to the Leyland National train. Other than that this was a fair video
Ok, maybe I should have. I just wanted to focus on the bus. Maybe in another video. Thank you for watching!
Very interesting content. As a bus enthousiast you should look at the Bova Futura, a Dutch bus that was made for decades in its original design. Nowadays there is a new model made by VDL, the VDL Futura. Both original and new model are very popular in the Netherlands and are also seen in many European countries.
Hello! Thank you for the info about the Bova Futura. I will look into it...if there's an interesting, odd angle to its story, it could be a subject for a video! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
Only went on a new Bova Futura coach, the most uncomfortable seats ever I have travelled on (the best a mix of the Bristol RE suburban coach or a touring Leyland Leopard with Plaxton body
@@highpath4776 The bus company who buys the bus chooses the seats they want. I travelled a lot with the old Futura and the seats were varying from very comfortable to awful. The times i sat in the new Futura, the seats were comfortable. It's of course also a personal taste about what is comfortable.
@@rbrouns9569 I did note the seat maker - forgot it now but might find reference in my archives of journals. I think they were a relatively new (to UK??) company trying to sell a "premium" range of seats.
We had these busses in Shrewsbury until the late 90s!
Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I never understood why I was attracted to this bus until I discovered it was designed by Giovanni Michelotti, the man was truly gifted.
Yes, it was a really good design! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Thank you for bringing me up to date.
The very first Nationals had a serious flaw, the body would suddenly roll on the suspension when cornering, the sudden redistribution of weight made life very interesting for the driver, especially in the wet, the Goodyear Unisteel tyres they came fitted with were poor in the wet and would let go very quickly and without warning.
This flaw was soon rectified by returning them to British Leyland to be retrofitted with body dampers, the front tyres were changed in the depot to Michelin Radials which made them much better in the wet, (The Goodyear tyres remained on the rear) the second-generation buses were much better, But it was only when the Mk 2 came along did we get a bus that was warm, powerful and good to drive, it was a vast improvement on the first efforts and was really a very good bus.
Hello! Thank you for the additional information on the Nationals!! Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I was an apprentice at United counties and Luton District in the eighties, we had a lot of them, I liked them, all of ours were 11,3 type
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I hope you can cover two Iconic Scottish designs, The Volvo Ailsa, and the Alexander Y type bus and coach body - which was fitted to many different manufacturers chassis.
Hello! Yes, I really like the Alexander Y. Very stylish. I included one in the beginning. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
It was one of the best buses I drove . Like a wellington bomber it always got you back home to the depot
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In Hull we had Leyland Nationals with no passenger seats in in the lower section in order to allow more standing passengers, and only seating aft of the step....
Wow, that's interesting to hear. Don't think I've seen a picture of one of those. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
I used to drive the national Leyland fantastic bus loved it
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The Leyland National alsohad an incarnations as a train the notorious PACER, 2 buses back to back, each mounted on a wagon chassis. They have only recently been withdrawn from service
Oh yes, that pacer. A variation of which with a full National body was tested in the USA on its railroads. Didn't work out. Thank you for watching and for your comment!
In Australia, Brisbane City Council bought about six of them around 1975/76, but never went back for more, and the small batch didn't last long. Surfside Buses on the Gold Coast was a much more satisfied customer, making the type the mainstay of their fleet from the late seventies into the eighties.
Hello! Very interesting to read your comment about the Australian Nationals! Thank you for watching from Australia and for your comment!
@@JeffreyOrnstein Surfside ran 39 at their peak use of the type from a handful they purchased new in 1976 and the rest second hand ones they aquired from various operators in Sydney (including ones I caught to and from school as a kid) from the mid 1980s. They scrapped most of them by 1994, selling off a few.
They were the biggest privately run operator of the type in Aust. ACTION in Canberra had the largest fleet of about 70 units (20 1974 long pod ones and the rest 50 1975 build short pod ones).
20 recieved MAN motor and Voith 3 speed gearbox transplants in the late 80s as hand me downs from MAN Sl200 buses in their fleet recieving higher HP engine upgrades!
Remember seeing my first one, c 1975/6 in Bridlington 😎
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I remember Leyland Nationals in Tasmania, a long way from the U.K.
Wow, didn't realize they existed there! Thank you for watching and for your comment!