Why Revelation 14:9-11 does not teach eternal torment
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Revelation 14:9-11 is one of the top three or four prooftexts used by traditionalists to attempt to show that the Bible teaches eternal torment for the lost. In this video, I seek to explain why this passage does not teach eternal torment. I do this by setting the passage in the larger context of Revelation 14:9-20 and the still larger context of symbolic language used throughout the Bible. I also mention places where the Bible explicitly teaches annihilationism in plain, straightforward language.
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A video where I discuss the lake of fire in Revelation 20:
• What is the Lake of Fi...
A 10 minute video where I give an overview of the biblical evidence in favor of annihilationism:
• Why I Believe in Annih...
A collection of videos, blog posts, and other resources related to the nature of hell:
parresiazomai....
Thank you for presenting the case for annihilation. I have always held the traditional view, but this message has given me much to think about. I’m going to listen to your other messages on the subject of annihilation. The annihilation doctrine seems to be closer to the character of God, so I will make this a matter of study and prayer.
Loretta, may God guide and bless you as you prayerfully study His Word to seek His truth on this issue!
"5/6/11 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Thus says The Lord: Behold, the corrupt doctrines of the churches of men have crept into every corner; near and far, the doctrine of hell and eternal torment is embraced by the people.
Yet I tell you the truth, this doctrine is a loathsome spot on every garment worn in the name of truth! A detestable wrinkle within the tapestry of My glory! A horrible interwoven thread by which those who call of themselves Christian pollute My name and mar My image before the people, propagating that which came forth from the mouth of the dragon!
THIS DOCTRINE IS EVIL! And must be opposed by all who have received the love of the Truth. For I have indeed spoken to this generation, even as I have spoken in all times past. For I AM THE LORD, The Light in whom there is no darkness at all."
www.thevolumesoftruth.com/A_Blemish_and_a_Stain
Praying for a fast and complete recovery Mark. 🙏🙏🙏
Thanks!
Could you do something on revelation 20:10?
Thanks for asking! I've already made a video on Revelation 20:10. Here is the link to it: ruclips.net/video/Il3DYi7AqJI/видео.html
Hi Mark, thanks for your video. I have spoken to you before on one of your other videos in the comments. My search for the truth about hell started several years ago when someone gifted me a book called 23 Minutes in Hell. I was raised in an Assemblies of God Church and always held the traditional view, but this book was so terrible I couldn't finish reading it. That led me to find out if the bible really teaches everlasting torment as the fate of the wicked.
Your "Burned Up" teachings were some of the first I came across on youtube. The arguments you presented there were some of the same things that I was thinking, that I believe God put in my head. It was confirmation for me. I think it was from God that this book came into my hands and made me start to question these things.
I completely agree with you on this video and on this passage. I'm sure you used the Edom example because it happened in the past and we can look back at it and see that there's no smoke continuing to rise. I'm sure you know that there's another passage in Revelation 18 regarding the destruction of Babylon where it says that the smoke of her will rise forever and ever, as well. I don't think we should understand that her destruction will continue forever and ever because the smoke rises forever and ever. I think it's clear with examples in the Bible that this is symbolic. It's like your examples of backwards interpretation of symbolism.
But like you said, even if it is literal, you still have to make a connection, in the absence of information, to say that smoke rising forever and ever means that the torment lasts forever and ever. We're talking about things that we have very little understanding of. It's very presumptuous of anyone to read this and say we understand it fully. After all, in the vacuum of space smoke would not dissipate. In the eternal world, outside this world, we don't know what the conditions would be to dissipate that smoke even if this were literal.
Off topic, you've done a word study for destroy. I'd like to see you do a word study on eternal, especially in the New testament, since eternal punishment is one of the justifications traditionalists use for everlasting torment. Based on my own searching, I think we're making a lot of mistakes in interpretation based on our misunderstanding of the word eternal. In this world, we think of eternal simply as an unlimited duration of time. But, the Bible uses it in a much broader way. Oftentimes, it has nothing at all to do with duration of time.
When James talks about Sodom and Gomorrah being the example of eternal fire we know that he's not talking about a duration of time. In that instance we could say that eternal means, of the Lord, or not of this world, so to speak. In other words, not subject to the same laws of physics that our world is subject to...not under the curse of death that our world is under.
When Jesus and John the Baptist talk about a fire that can't be quenched, I believe they're talking about a fire like I just explained above, a fire not subject to the laws of physics of this created world that we know. I believe Jesus is making a distinction between what we know and what he's trying to explain to us. The fire that we understand is the one that needs fuel, air, and heat. The fire he's explaining to us is not subject to those things and goes out when it has accomplished what God intended.
When we think in terms of eternal we need to think of time differently. Eternal refers to that which is outside of our created world, which is subject to the curse of death, the laws of physics and time. Once we are outside of this created world, time is nothing like we understand it, or may not exist at all. Something eternal may or may not last forever. It may come into being at God's command to accomplish what God wants and then be gone again. We just don't know. But to limit eternal to a duration of time is misunderstanding the word as it is used in the Bible. I think when we use the word eternal torment, or ETC, we are perpetuating the misunderstanding of the word. I prefer to use everlasting torment.
Sorry for the long comment. I bring all that up simply because I'd like to see you do a word study on eternal. I really like you, Mark. I appreciate your humble spirit. Thanks for your efforts and the research that you do.
I thank God for the way He has been showing you the truth about conditional immortality! I am always encouraged when I hear that God used some of my material to help someone understand His Word.
You ask some good questions about the Bible's use of the word "eternal." Many people have asked similar questions!
I have two resources that I hope might help you with this topic. First, I do have a word study on "aionios," the Greek word usually translated "eternal" in the New Testament. This word study is found in a 3-part blog post. Here is the link to part 1:
parresiazomai.blogspot.com/2017/12/what-does-aionios-mean-in-matthew-2546.html
You may be surprised that I conclude that "aionios" does in fact mean "eternal" in the literal sense of lasting forever in time. But this does not at all undermine conditional immortality. The main verse where this is an issue is Matthew 25:46. I explain why Matthew 25:46 actually teaches conditional immortality in this 10 minute video:
ruclips.net/video/oNmKlOUpo24/видео.html
Thanks again for taking the time to share your comments. Don't hesitate to ask more questions!
Thanks, Mark. I hope you are feeling better by now. I recently got over Covid myself so I understand how the effects can linger.
@@MarkWCorbett1 Hi Mark, thanks for the resources on this subject. I looked at your word study on aionios. I agree with you, for the most part, but I do have some of my own thoughts on the matter. I am not near as well educated on the bible and Greek translation as you are, so my thoughts may be irrelevant. I'm writing to ask you what you think about something else.
Since Jesus uses Gehenna to help people understand the final fate of the wicked (hell), I've been trying to learn everything I can about the Valley of Ben Hinnom and what Jesus' listeners would have associated that with. I have heard that the valley was used as a garbage dump, but not everyone agrees with that. I came across a passage in Jeremiah today (31:40). Do you think he is referring to the Valley of Ben Hinnom here? It would make sense since Josiah desecrated the valley so that no one could sacrifice their children there any longer. It would also strengthen the death association to Gehenna, rather than everlasting torment. Lastly, it lends credence to the interpretation of "worms" and "fire" being agents of destruction rather than agents of torment.
Thanks, Mark!
Does this teaching of eternal torment come from the new king james version?
No it comes from Roman paganism. By the way, you'll notice that the KJV (the original KJV not the new one) supports conditional immortality very well. The newer translations seem to change certain verses to better fit eternal torture, even though the original did not say anything that they claim.
For example, 2 Thess 1:9 KJV says "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" which actually seems to imply that the actual presence of God is what destroys the wicked. That would be extremely understandable considering that's how God's presence is depicted many times especially in the old testament. Think of how God told Moses that no man can see Him in His glory and live. God is a consuming fire and His glory will destroy sin. Now contrast this with the NIV version and you'll see how they change it to sound more like ECT.
2 Thess 1:9 NIV: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"
You'll notice if you look at the Strong's concordance for that verse, that there's no words present for "shut out" or anything resembling that at all. The correct translation is obviously the one that the KJV uses, but the NIV is not inspired by God, and therefore it is subject to fallible humans interpretation of the passages.
Get better buddy. I appreciate your videos.
don't get boosted brother... never ever
Yeah never take those Vs they are pushing out
@@AllInForYahProves he is a fake believer who has NO faith in God who has given us natural immunity. Fake people trust in this fake world and all that it offers.
@@glennrobinson7193 You're probably right. As sad as it is, I got a covid test once and now I hate myself for it... I knew it was all a lie but I still got tested because I did come down sick and after trying to ignore it for a few days because I knew everything was getting blown out of proportion, I finally had to accept that I was sick. I called my mom and she told me to get tested. Why I listened to her? No idea. Unbelievable. I pray every day that God can have mercy on me.
Annihilation is PARTLY true. God is going to annihilate all wickedness and corruption. But the souls he has made he will save and preserve forever. Based on Ezekiel 18:4 that all souls are HIS.
Jesus specifically said that God will destroy both the bodies and souls of the unsaved in hell:
ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
@@MarkWCorbett1 Read that verse properly. It says he is ABLE to, it doesn't say he will. Who have you been listening to, to God, or some man's teaching??
"Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Yes he is able to destroy. Destroy doesn't mean to literally smash to smithereens. A boxer may "destroy" his opponent in the ring. The word destroy is often used in that sense, destroying one's status, position and power. And THAT my friend is what God is going to do with the wicked when their pride and power and status is ashamed and brought to nothing, for he will have no flesh to glory in his presence. Please don't believe this annihilation lie and deception. Verses like Psalm68:2 speak of who the wicked ARE, not the essence of their being, their soul. God has made all creation for his glory and to glorify him in the end ("every knee shall bow").
@@glennrobinson7193 it's funny that you quote Ezekiel 18:4. The verse litteraly says that the soul who sins shall die. lol
@@Kev_Cooper777 Of course, the soul that sins shall die, but ALL souls will be resurrected (John5:28,29). Clear then that death is not a permanent state, especially given that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Corinthians15:26.
@@MarkWCorbett1 Fear meaning have respectful regard for. Destroy can mean ruin, loss. Loss of wicked status, of worldly stature, loss & ruin of wicked character of the soul. Body rots in the ground. Loss of soul and body enough cause to fear God by honoring him. Your delight in your pagan belief that most of mankind will suffer unspeakable agonies in an infernal hell without end proves you do not know the true and living God who is all loving and all merciful. You hell believers are obnoxious and despicably evil.