White-Merrill Experimental Model 1911 Pistol
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- In the aftermath of their rejection in the US 1907 pistol trials, Joseph White and Samuel Merrill continued working on handgun designs. In 1911, Merrill wrote to the Ordnance Department to inquire about whether they would be interested in testing his new design. While the Department was willing, Merrill and White never ended up submitting the gun - probably because of a combination of fine-tuning problems and the formal adoption of the Colt/Browning Model 1911 as the new US service pistol.
This 1911 model White-Merrill was a complete mechanical departure from their previous 1907 trials pistol. It uses a delayed blowback mechanism, relying on a heavy mechanical disadvantage when cocking the hammer to delay the opening of the slide. The patent for this pistol (patentimages.s...) describes several different mechanisms for an action that would function equally well without regard to the pressure of the cartridge, but these claims seem dubious to me - rather like the theoretical principle of the Blish lock in the Thompson.
At any rate, it is very interesting to be able to examine the gun - it is the only example made by White and Merrill. Their handguns designs would find no commercial success, but White would go on to submit several interesting rifle designs to compete with the Garand in the late 1920s.
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Steadily increasing my knowledge of the 1907 pistol trials
1911 must have been a shitty year to be a pistol developer if you were not colt
I went back and watched the old videos on the George Wilson Match 45. Auto target pistols. What was interesting was that at the time Ian remarked in the video that since it was one of three it was the rarest pistol he had held. I'm happy to know that barrier has been broken like 100 times now.
I believe that Wilson pistol remains the rarest thing I have actually fired, FWIW.
Forgotten Weapons Hmm, hadn't thought of that but I think you're right. Every little one off prototype is usually in an unfinished state or requires unobtanium ammo or the consigner simply isn't having it with you shooting it. I think your reputation precedes you Mr. Gun Jesus; you ought to be able to fire damn near anything as far as a consigner is to be concerned.
I just taken a look at the patent,then I realized something unique.
Actually,the locking mechanism of the White-Merrill 1911 pistol is "gas-delayed blow back".
In patent drawing fig.5,White clearly demonstrated this mechanism.
When the pistol fire,the pressure from the bottom of the cartridge shell push the breech lock D,which is moving independently in receiver,slightly rearward.
At the moment,d',which is the shoulder of the breech lock D,engaging with the shoulder e26 of the arm e25,preventing the hammer from rolling and keeping it engaging with the abutment a,thus delay the slide action.
Once the bullet leave the barrel,since the pressure apply to the breechlock D is relatively low,the recoil energy affecting on abutment a could overcome the friction made by the breechlock-hammer engagement,so the slide eventually start moving forward.
This is definitely not the Blish Lock.
Three videos in two days? Thank you gun Jesus.
NoMoFoSho1000 I heard he was able to turn water into gun oil
He chased both gimmick-peddlers and historical forgers and from the gun show temples, and then to give his flock the gift of his knowledge, he explained the natures of those gimmicks and frauds in detailed and easily understood terms. We are not worthy
Fascinating, and another handsome looking pistol (to my eyes, anyway)
This makes one really appreciate the genius of John Browning
Jesus Christ! How often do you make these? I've watched ~10/day for the last almost 2 years, and I'm getting nowhere to the end!
Nice work, you make awesome videos!
Almost surreal seeing such a unique and one of a kind pistol so long ago
There seem to be an awful lot of experimental or prototype examples in this auction. Are they all from the same collection, or is it just by chance? (if from one collection, it would be interesting to know the history on amassing such a collection)
i think it is probable that an elderly collector has sadly passed away, and the wealth of knowledge of the guns in his collection died with him.
I like the hammer design. I think I will log that in my little inventory of mechanical bits.
This channel is amazing, you learn a bunch of history.
I always look forward to your uploads sir. Thanks for sharing.
'Hammer-delayed blowback'. How neat, and it's a nifty rotary hammer design in its own right. I just wished it looked as bonkers as the 1907.
thank you for another excellent video :)
Just a quick question, but what happened to your Nambu video you posted yesterday? Just wanted to know why it was taken down.
Scribe Hammar my guess was it was an accidental upload due to the upload time being more mid-day/evening.
Echo Rabbit Possibly.
being that for me most FW uploads go up at 12pm and the one from yesterday went up just after midnight would imply to me that the wrong time had been put in for a scheduled upload. Glad I got to watch it before it went down however
Scribe Hammar
So it did exist, I saw it just before going to bed and thought I would watch it when I woke up but now I can't find it so I was beginning to doubt my sanity :p
Rhian Hunt it wasn't just a Nambu, it was a Baby Nambu; a microsized ceremonial sidearm for higher rank and rear-echelon Imperial officers.
It is interesting to see the "failures" after knowing what DID win/pass.
Good info for aspiring gun designers.
#FREEBABYNAMBU
Same.
When you're Already watching a FW video and a New one pops up.
The 1911 we don't talk about
"that's not actually how physics works"
The case delayed patent reminds of the system the FN 5.7 and pmr-30 uses more than the blish lock and it seems he had the spark of the idea but either didn't flesh it out further or failed to connect the dots. The lever delaying hammer mechanism is very clever though and it makes me wonder what could have been if he used it in the 1907 trials. Unfortunately lever delayed actions seem to come a few years too late. Looking at you Korobov, you cosmoline huffing madman.
liju40 korobov! I wish his designs were adapted. Or at least produced in limited number.
Kind of makes one wonder how things would be pistol wise if the 1907 trials went differently
Ian, please post your bio. I want to know how you become an expert on this subject. I like the tons of information you put in your videos.
I think it's on his website, forgottenweaponsDOTcom
I searched his site, Wikipedia, Google and found nothing. He is a modest person, I guess.
So, he is a mechanical engineer by trade. I googled this pistol (the White-Merrill) and there only a mention in "Gun Digest Book of Classic Combat Handguns". All the other references comes from Ian itself.
Ian has the original report (1907 trials) in his website (www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf) so it seems that he uses first hand documentation for this (and probable others) videos.
I'm impressed by the care he took to get first rate information. He looks like a very dedicated man.
I think he mentioned once that his father was also into militaria / history
www.forgottenweapons.com/how-to-become-a-professional-gun-nerd/
I just wanted to make a threefold shoutout. Firstly, to Ian for making the video. Second, to all the inventors who created these wonky pieces of history, and thirdly to the collectors who recognized their importance and coveted them away for future generations!
That's a weird way to use "covet."
If I had a absurd amount of money I'd love the 1907 I like the cocking lever thing
When you talk about friction, i remember another video where you go into real detail about how this misinformation stemmed from battleship guns? I might very well be mistaken.
Yes, the Blish principle. Used in the Thompson SMG.
Is that a Stripper-Clip-Guide I see there? (When the gun is locked open)
Hope someone answers that question - also: Great video once again, very interesting one of a kind gun :)
Ian,
In your studies have you ever come across any explanation of why firearms designers would submit weapons for testing that would then fail the trials so badly (as in the example of the predecessor of the firearm in this video)? Were the testing methods secret? Wishful thinking on the part of the designers? The military at the time was just as likely to accept some concept they liked as the military of today is and accept substandard equipment and then spend a small fortune on trying to fix it?
I think it is mostly a combination of wishful thinking and deadlines (plus the occasional times when the testing ammo was substantially different from what the designer had expected). There was not an unlimited time to develop the guns, and you would be better off submitting a not-quite-finished design than submitting nothing.
And unfortunately (edit: for them), these designers were all going up against John Moses Browning.
seems like someone put their 190- trials collection up for auction
Pretty darn cool - thanks Ian!
That's a lot of screws holding that thing together, I counted 28 on the outside alone, not counting the dozen holding the magazine together. I couldn't imagine trying to disassemble this pistol
where is the nambu video?
White was sort of right in his patent, case pressure would increase the friction between the case and the cylinder walls, but that increase is linear with the increase in pressure and almost certainly not significant enough to lock the gun under pressure
i actually love this guy, just so cool
Interesting ideas, but i would have a lot of concerns about durability. Of course, further refinement would have been needed to go through the military testing, which they seemed to realize. I wonder if a diff delaying mechanism would be more efficient? Some type of sliding wedge or roller lock maybe, neither of which were probably invented yet at that time? I'm not an engineer, just a gun aficionado, but it seems logical. Great video as always. Does a gun with that straight of a grip angle point properly? Seems like it would be a little off.
So did White and Merrill ever produce anything that got approved?
+Forgotten Weapons could you make a video about surface to air shoulder launched missiles? like the stinger or the igla
P.S. also a video on other disposable single shot launchers would be nice
THANK YOU FOR THE FANTASTIC CONTENT AS ALWAYS!!
what you do is amazing thank you
how about those british smg's? still waiting
did the nambu video fail , like the nambu itself?
Jonathan dalton well,nambu pistols didn't even nearly to fail.At least they're proved on battlefields,much better than most of the pistols.
I must've mistaken it for that other one.
It will be back, on the day it was supposed to publish in the first place.
If this was a experimental model how did it end up of the civilian market instead of some vault or scrapped
W.. wait... Is the patent effectively saying, that high pressure exerted by an object will stop the object where low pressure won't, because the friction will be higher? How could anyone capable of designing a gun possibly believe that?
Not every gun designer knows how physics work, evidently :|
Admittedly, the kinks of how exactly this sort of physics worked weren't well worked out and publicized then, and most of these people were self taught with little education on such things.
Also from what i remember, there was an older video with some sort of gun that was supposed to work on this principle, the physics of course didnt work, but the gun still somehow worked, so in cases like that they would assume that the friction thing is real.
Tauras Mil Only other well known one I can think of was the thompson, but this came first
Well the best I can come up with is like, suppose you shoot a can out of a plastic tube, the propulsion coming from some device behind the tube, now suppose you shoot it off with basically near too much power the tube could handle, I suppose I could imagine the can sort of ricocheting around in the tube and then after a micro delay popping out "with a huff and a puff", but this would probably all be due to flexibility of the tube. But honestly, it almost sounds like one of those troll physics memes from a while back
Ian love your videos, would you have any opportunity to cover some vehicle or aircraft mounted weapons?
I dunno if you noticed, Ian, but that slide lock looks a LOT like they "borrowed" it from a Colt 1902 Military model. Coincidence?
Then again, i don´t know if Colt bothered to patent something of so little significance as the shape of their slide release lever.
DarkestVampire92 colt didn't invent the slide lock, did they?
3:29, Mama Merrill, Little Girl Merrill...
And what happened to Baby Nambu?
Whether it is any better than a 1911 or not is irrelevant to me in this case just because it looks so damn sexy. She belongs in a game. Someone call Bethesda!
Am I mistaken, or does it have (maybe the beginning of) a stripper clip guide?
ProjectD13X it certainly looks that way. Pretty sure the 1907 had that so it would make sense they'd put it on their 1911 model.
What you are describing at 6:01 is called "inertia".
"Some rounds are loaded too hot, some are loaded too weak, and it would be good to have a pistol that can just digest any of those safely." So, a revolver, then. But no, no, early-20th-century autoloader designers all thought they had a better idea. :)
ZGryphon that's .... a good point actually.
Then again, where do I buy a 9 shot revolver which isn't enormous?
And once double-stack was a thing, where do I get a 15 or 18 shot revolver to start with?
Not Pulverman That would be a LeMat revolver which also had a shotgun in the as the central pivot for the cylinder....
Oh, well... At least with this version, you wouldn't have to worry about it falling apart while shooting.
IAN I messaged u on Facebook today is the Centennial of the US entering WW1
a "hammer-delayed" blowback??
Thank you gun jesus!
As in Merell shoes?
i would dub this the rolling block automatic pistol
“I dont have much information on how it works” *shows blueprint*
Those were the patent drawings, not blueprints. Patents generally contain a lot of features that aren't actually in the final product (such as the combined extractor/ejector in this case) because they are usually written early on in development and are written to cover a lot of alternatives. So you can't rely on them as accurate depictions of the product.
so its like a famas? but for pistols
Yes, in a way.
that's an interesting idea
Wait. Could I be related?
I would end up not sending it too. Not even because of quality or anything.
Is it shootable?
IF I could afford the gun, I would. I dont ever buy a gun I dont intend to shoot.
FlymanMS I would definitely shoot it.
Christopher amen. A gun that can't be fired is of no use to me.
Blish lock.
Yo are we still on LoL
battlefield 1 material?
Matt Fereday No
What? No it failed the tests that were required by the army in order for it to be put into production
pyrotechNick That's like half the guns in bf1...
crashandburnbirner No most if not all of the guns were use in the war.
firing pin* ruclips.net/video/wgk2hkZeZrI/видео.htmlm3s
FYI, i'm not the one individual who deemed it necessary to dislike this video. idk how anyone could dislike this. keep up the amazing work!
This gun is too old and prototypey to take apart but...grah! There it goes lemme just yank this thing into oblivion
As far as i been able to tell, thats not how physics works 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 i didnt know this was a comedy channel