An interesting idea I just had: Broad categories like that Kickapoo coffee and also something like a scratch-off bit at the back with more specific flavours. So you get some idea about the coffee when you buy it and after you've tasted the best the coffee has to offer, you can scratch off that bit to see what notes the roasters and graders tasted.
So for people who want that specific notes, they can choose to see it first through that scratch-off or maybe even a QR code or weblink with those details and for everyone else discover it after they've tried it.
@@Sprometheus Yeah . I think it's a best of both worlds scenario , plus the consumer can get better at tasting more niche notes, if they turn out to be accurate.
This is perfect. I'm so sick of reading the complicated tasting notes on the bag. Especially those that are cultural or regional specific. Roasters should know, not all their customers have the same life experience. It also posting a bit of obnoxious in the label. I seriously doubt if most of us can 100% replicate it in home environment. If they want to claim such notes, they should come and make it for us LOL
I love this rant! The coffee industry has been getting away with hype for too long. Who made the infamous "Andean Red Custard Rambutan" peaberry coffee? That was my favorite. It tasted like coffee.
Thank you for making this video, I’ve been starting to think either my sense of taste is off or my brew method isn’t where it should be as I can rarely taste the flavour notes on a bag. As someone that’s fairly new to specialty coffee, I find flavour notes both appealing (peach notes sounds good) and disappointing (I can’t taste any peach!). You’ve restored some confidence in me, I’ll definitely be taking those notes with a bigger pinch of salt!
You’re welcome! Happy to help and restore some confidence. Keep at it, and from time to time you’ll have a coffee that will blow you away with the flavors. But it’s the exception, and not the rule. Thanks for watching!
So I have had a similar experience but I learnt that changing the drink based on coffee taste notes help a lot. Case 1: orange juice, raspberry, dates- depending on how much I extract it it feels like raspberry or dates(if a little sugar is added) added sparkling water to my Aeropress brew and felt like orange juice. Case 2: found a coffee with banana taste notes never felt it in an Aeropress brew but then I make a bon bon using an expresso shot, tasted like a frickkin banana milkshake coffee!!
Thanks for making this video and it describes what I have been thinking for the last few years now. I have been a coffee enthusiast for more than a decade, always experimenting with different sources and brewing methods. For the first few years I tried very hard to "find" the flavour notes as suggested by the roasters and probably failed to taste 70% of them. I blamed it on my lackluster tastebuds. I've now come full circle and believe those are mostly marketing tactics and more often than not do nothing to enhance my experience and enjoyment of my cup of coffee!
Thank you! As home barista that's been really into coffee for 20 years I thought I was a failure. I mean I never tasted these crazy flavours at really good cafes either, but I thought if I just kept tweaking I'd be able to taste these odd flavours but I never could. I think this lets me relax and just appreciate good coffee! Once in a while I make a cup that seems perfect to me, I can ignore now that I didn't get any hints of clementine orange peel coming through ...
"At night, when the jasmine blooms, a pretty deck of playing cards dissolves into layers of petals. The petals lie on a table in a tropical grove of papaya and pinapple. Mimosas are served."
IMO, body depends on how you brew it. It's the oils and non soluble solids that provide the body and those are filtered away when you use paper filters giving lighter body. French press doesn't filter them and will yield heavy, more syrupy coffee.
@@psychadeliq of course but different beans/roasts have different amounts of oils and so on that add to the body so the system indicates the body potential regardless of Brew method
I really like Sweet Maria's approach where they use a rose chart for this. Gives you a visual idea of the rough flavors to expect without getting specific to the point of making stuff up.
I can definitely see the value of this kind of scale. But like one of the comments mentioned these things can vary widely on how you prepare it. And things like acidity, sweetness, and body are kind of nebulous and not really defined in a way all people can understand or measure against. But such is the beauty of coffee.
@@Urtlesquirt I like Sweet Maria's scales as well. I think they are a good amount of detail, while still being pretty simple. And I've found them to be accurate.
One concept not mentioned in the video is the roasters using the phrase "this coffee reminds us of...". I really like this style of listing the notes, as it doesn't force the consumer to feel a certain way about their own experience, but rather presents a simple opinion of the roaster, and can lead the consumer in the right direction when purchasing coffee Great video!
I used to be turned down by some creative notes that I couldn’t taste. I thought it was because of my dumb taste buds or my awful brewing methods. Thanks for your video! Now I think what really matters by the end of the day is whether you like this coffee or not. The notes are just there to guide you to choose your favorite coffee!
This just in: the diner down the street that says "worlds best diner" isn't actually the worlds best diner. Everything about coffee packaging is a marketing ploy. I totally agree with the points you're making.
I really like Detour Coffee in Hamilton Ontario. They have a label art system where the shapes and colours on the bag roughly represent what the coffee tastes like. Sharper shapes are brighter and brighter colours are more acidic etc
I recently had some coffee from Kickapoo and appreciated the more general descriptions. After dialing it in I went on their website out of curiosity to find more specific flavor notes and it was fun to see how they compared with what I tasted. At the end of the day, I think general notes are pretty easy to agree upon and beyond that it comes down to personal experiences & memories for the super specific things.
That's a cool idea! Have notes on the bag, and then direct people to a website with more specific notes and more details about that specific roasting batch. Tell people who made the more specific tasting notes. Aficionados (of any sort of food or beverage) love this sort of thing. Not so much, the casual consumer--but the real lovers of whatever the product is. Perhaps even offer a short video from the roaster about roasting that batch of that particular coffee!
When I brew at home, I try to find the flavor notes before I look at the bag because I CAN NEVER TELL WHAT A GRAPEFRUIT OR GRAPES tastes like in an espresso or a pour-over. Because if I look at the flavor notes before I taste the coffee I brewed, I would either try to find that note so hard that it frustrates me or I would just lie to myself and be like, yeah, that tasted like watermelon. lol. Thanks so much for this video, sir.
Agree with this SO MUCH. It is like being told that a movie (you haven't seen yet) is the BEST EVER. Your expectations are set so high that you can hardly help but be disappointed. (Odds are, anyway). Also, people don't all have the taste sensitivity, so what a Q Grader might taste and what I might taste are definitely two different things. I think some roasters do what they do on their labels just because they see somebody else doing it and copy it, without thinking it through. Or they mimic the green coffee sellers notes - which may be highly dependent upon the degree of roast. My coffee label (Cottage Food microroastery) is very minimalist. I'd like people to taste it and decide for themselves what they are tasting. The ultimate compliment is when they come back and order more!
I actually find them useful when picking coffee. I prefer more tropical fruit forward coffees and looking at the tasting notes helps me in deciding which to pick. I’m aware that I’m not going to be able to taste everything described but the main flavors are usually there.
I'm frustrated when I can't taste the fruity notes as written on the package, so out of curiosity I added a little orange zest during extraction, and it works superbly well, although I'm breaking the rules but the end result is amazing. Anyway I only use it to salvage coffee that had slightly lost its freshness.
I’m much the same and that’s good advice really. I will often use flavour notes to choose a coffee to buy, but then do my best to forget them before the first time I brew it. This is usually pretty easy if it’s being shipped to me and doesn’t arrive for a couple of days. I then always try the coffee at least once before going back to check the descriptors on the bag and sometimes I might get through a whole bag without referring to them. It’s interesting to compare, but I never get hung up on it If I don’t taste the same qualities in my cup.
Interesting considerations! Many times I've seen labels on the bag that "go too far". It's hard to be so specific when every customer has personal, cultural, and geographical perceptions for something that's supposed to be the same taste, but they don't feel that on the same coffee.
Great video!!!! I think I've had 5 bags of coffee that I've clearly tasted the notes described on the bag in the last 2 years. One of them was yours of course. Great vid
Very honest video! I agree with you entirely. When I do taste the coffee notes indicated on the bag, it is because I have added a small quantity of cream and sugar...... Otherwise, the only thing I would taste would be burnt wood and Greek olives. I kid you not. It is a horrible experience ! Extraction has to be bang-on and have the exact amount of cream and sugar. I also find the espresso has to be at about 35 degrees Celsius, not steaming hot or heaven forbid with steamed milk. Steamed milk gives the beverage the impression that someone has added pressed linen in it.
Amen!!! I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I often buy coffee beans with appealing flavor profiles. Then get disappointed by not tasting them. I'm beginning to just enjoy a good cup of coffee for what it should be.
Love this video, it's so true, there should be more of a guidance or general agreed upon industry notes to describe flavour notes, what we have right now is helping yes, but also misleading a lot of times
I think that semi-general tasting notes are helpful. Like: floral, chocolate, fruity etc. And maybe a more general directions for example: wich kind of fruit is it: red fruits, citrus. That's enough. Besides, I dislike when coffee becomes too hipster-oriented, with weird names, colorful package arts, very specific and long tasting descriptions. Just like with craft beer. It feels infantile
So glad you are talking about this. I'm new to roasting and have been upset that i just can't reach the notes on the bag. Started thinking that I'm off... Well i am. But not in a bad way.
Great video! I think you took the topic and made it super digestible. My introduction to fresh coffee was through roasting which I started as a money saver. When I first started I really tried to taste the notes they put on the greens. It can certainly be frustrating if you can’t. I started looking at flavor charts, and thought about home cupping... It’s a skill you need to learn and I feel like it’ll make me judge coffee even more harshly. No thanks! I may not taste pineapple, but this Costa Rica is definitely silky and that’s good enough for me. -Joe
thanks Joe! Roasting for those green notes can be quite an experience. I tend to get one or two sometimes, but not all the time. It varies quite a bit. But yeah, the flavor note experience is just so broad and changes quite a bit. But glad you’re enjoying the coffee!
was using Lavazza espresso supreme creama, finally dialed it to dark, chocolate and smooth tasting. saw a local roaster avertising amazing coffee with all of these specific notes. before pulling the trigger went to their coffee shop and tried 3 types (espresso, cold pourover, slow pourover) yes, there was a slight difference, as all three were a bit more acidic than i liked. however, this saved me many $$ as i would never buy these specialty coffee as my palette is not so refined and i am truly thankful for that. thank you lavazza for making cofee affordable. also thank you for the rant, i am on the same boat.
Harken Cafe in Vancouver has a colour bar on their bags. It's useful. Dark brown is a more traditional espresso, peaches and pinks tend to be brighter and fruitier. They throw some flavour notes in there too, but I let the colours be my primary guide. I think we should narrow it down to more general notes, as Prometheus suggests. Jammy, rounded, sharp, smooth, chocolate, fruity, etc.
I’ve bought a bag on notes alone on many occasions. I’m not ashamed of that and i find the notes, like you said, helpful in guiding me towards a bag I’d enjoy. I did recently buy a bag with the WILD listed note of “watermelon jolly rancher..” While I admit the coffee when cooled had a fun and refreshing watermelon rind taste to it. I didn’t experience the candy aspect of it and honestly feel like they went over the edge and at that point it was just for marketing. Nice video btw, really enjoy your stuff Man!
Oh yeah. It seems like when they taste a flavor like watermelon it doesn’t seem like it’s popping enough for a bag. So add jolly rancher to it and you’re all set, haha. Thanks for watching, I appreciate the support and the kind words!
Thanks for doing this! I'm newbie on my coffee journey and started out as a person who loved coffee smell but cared little for the taste. 20 years, a coffee shop ownership and an ongoing career in the food industry later, I have arrived at this aspiration. I buy a coffee based on the appealing fragrance of the bean (yes, I learned that term from your cupping tutorial) and am extremely happy if I can achieve a taste in my espresso or americano that matches that fragrance. Having said this, I continue to strive to pick out the exotic flavors that are usually called out on the packaging.
I started the rabbit hole early this year. What I found was that the notes are a false marketing technique to make you want to purchase. I think the best way to choose coffee is go off what you like. So kind of what you stated, if you like fruity coffee go for those and use the tasting notes as a guide rather than something that is absolute. Personally I would go for coffee flavors that I can recognize as in I know what chocolate taste like, I know what honey taste like, etc. If I felt adventurous I would try it first, so I would ask the coffee shop to make me a shot of espresso if the coffee I want to buy. If I like it then I go for it.
Another great video. I've always thought it was a bit over the top. Toning it down a bit (or using broader notes as you suggest) sounds like a good place to start.
One tip I found that has actually really helped me is when seeing flavor notes on a bag, sometimes it is saying “I taste peach” but other times it’s referring to “sweetness like of a peach” so I tend to let flavor notes more guide me in is this coffee going to have heavier flavors or brighter and sweeter flavors vs specific flavors as listed on the bag
I made 7 cups of fresh dark bean at 196 degrees espresso today back to back. All with different grind settings seeking different pull times while maintaining same output volume. It’s amazing to taste the differences. None of the tastes matched the bag description and I’ve got great equipment. I agree with your perspective. Good video.
I think the sca flavor wheel pictures you show in the video are extremely helpful vernacular for purchasers and sellers to use. This clarifies the expected taste which is a complicated mix of origin, processing, and roast. Not everyone will taste every flavor note. Explore and understand your palette. Once you find several you like and dislike you will find it much easier to buy new coffees that you will like. Personally i love coffees with blueberry, lemon, or lime notes. Grape and winey notes I avoid. I agree more flowery descriptions such as your mango white claw are indeed marketing junk.
You've pretty much nailed my opinion on flavor notes. First and foremost, they should (and usually) guide consumers into purchasing a coffee that they'll enjoy. Second, I believe the notes should be used as a general guideline for dialing in the coffee. Third, I think it's a combination of the power of suggestion and marketing. I tend to trust companies more that offer "generic" tasting notes. I'd prefer to buy a bag of coffee that claims tropical fruit tasting notes over dried mango (using one of your examples). I think it is a coffee company's duty to go a step forward or a step back on the tasting notes. Either simplify the notes to allow for more individualistic experience (and if you want crazy notes, the company could blog about the coffee tasting experience for each coffee), or the company should claim these notes and then provide a guideline on brewing. I love buying coffees with espresso parameter suggestions; although I don't always follow their parameters, I find them helpful in the dialing in process, and I believe their notes to be more authentic as opposed to mere marketing. Obviously, any parameters would have to be adapted according to whatever brewing scenario you use (water, machine differences, etc.)--for instance, I have an Expobar Brewtus with a vibratory pump, where you have the La Marzocco Linea Mini. I find my pressure ramps up slower, so I typically end up with longer brew times to achieve similar extraction. Anyway, that's my rant; keep up the good work!
Certainly flavor notes are part of the coffee experience - coffee is a food 🥘 and a after all and can take on characteristics of the environment in which it’s cultivated. Beyond that many of the descriptors used seem reflective of a desire to attain the status, respectability and yes, pretentiousness of wine culture. Success ensures a class system of expert, hobbyist, and truck driver. It’s the one aspect of coffee I don’t enjoy. Thanks for shedding light on this. Oh and yes it’s All driven by marketing from the bean to the water to the equipment to the method. There’s always something else to buy so that your coffee will be a little better or to help you be a better brewer. Marketing is geared to direct us along the quest for the holy grail.
This was so helpful!! This has bothered me for years. I'll get excited about certain notes and then it's a let down if I don't taste the specific note. I've always appreciated when roasters offer an in depth description of what they taste. Instead of just lemon, they say lemon-like acidity. It implies an element of the tasting experience rather than the cup tasting like lemonade (which sometimes it does). It's also funny to see roasters like Vibrant use words such as "relaxed" or "comforting." Or Onyx's traditional-modern scale.
Evan Garner I’m happy to help! I saw this video as a possible risk but it’s been surprisingly positive in terms of response. Clearly a lot of people have been feeling the same. I agree that I being more clear in terms of how that note hits, like a flavor, acidity, or texture. The weird notes like “luxurious” to me sound like a tactile mouthfeel thing, unless it’s leather. Leather tastes luxurious, haha.
Very solid opinion piece, and very funny. I agree wholeheartedly. My family refuses to drink coffee if it has flavor notes that are floral in any way, and I can't convince them how different they all are!
Thank God I found this video. As a beginner home brewer, it's very frustrating when I don't get the right notes. The first bag of beans I bought says "dried berries, green apple" but all I can taste are hints of chocolate with raisins plus some pleasant acidity. The 2nd bag (different beans) I bought from the same roaster tastes the same as the first one. The notes include this one fruit but I can only smell it (from the whole beans) but I don't taste it :/ Getting kinda discouraged until I saw this video. For now, at least I know what my coffee shouldn't taste like.
What we do is we have tasting notes in the description on the website, but leave them off of the bag. That way customers can use the notes to make purchasing decisions and promptly forget those notes by the time they actually taste the coffee :)
I think it's a nice and weir way to connect with roasters... I mean, even though they're not with you when you're brewing and/or extracting your best shot. It's really fun to compare if you get those notes and which one may be missing (from their side) depending on your prep method. The key thing here is to not follow those notes as written in stone but as a nice cupping friend who share his/her thoughts.
It’s a bit ridiculous, as are the tasting notes that a lot of booze aficionados claim they can taste. Yes, tell me more about that fan-assisted oven baked chutney flavour
I feel like everyone has to do their job well in order for tasting notes to land. Roasters have to be able to bring the natural flavors of the coffee forward and brewer's have to know how to brew that coffee well in order for the coffees flavors to shine and on top of all that we all have to taste the same. The reality is we don't all taste the same and not everyone making coffee at home early in the morning is dialing in. I agree with you, tasting notes are still a guide and can help us dial in our brews a little better. For me though, I found learning how to taste for a well balanced, well rounded cup has done more for me than trying to pay attention to specific flavors. learning to pay attention to broader yet more foundational things like texture, body, sweetness, acidity, bitterness, sourness and how all those things interact with each other has done more for me than chasing flavor notes right off the bat. Once I feel a brew is balanced (or getting close to it) then I start to pay attention to flavor notes to maybe fine tune a little bit and bring forward certain aspects of that coffee I prefer more or just to enjoy in the cup. Cheers
I definitely relate to what’s said at 7 minutes! I recently took a dive into roasting so I can begin to truly blind test and check my pilate. I feel my palate is slightly guided by tasting notes stated on bags, but feel they should still be there and each person decides what type of coffee drinker they want to be regardless. Those that want to strive and taste all those notes will, while those that just want to enjoy “good” coffee will be guided simply by what they like
If you enjoy blind cupping I recommend checking out the Angel’s Cup subscription. It’s a blind cupping coffee subscription that has a tasting app that allows you to get brewing tips from the roaster then you taste it, make your origin and processing guesses and then it will reveal the roasters notes as well as all the others who tasted it. It’s a lot of fun. I plan on doing a video about it soon.
The Real Sprometheus thanks for the recommendation! I will look into it in the near future as I continue to progress. I definitely want to train/refine my palate. I look forward to your video on it!
Nice as Always! I got a coffee for my birthday that tastes really like watermelon and grapefruit. Even though it was a honey procest coffee from brasil.
The Real Sprometheus Yeah it was amazing...very balanced with bright acidity and molasses like sweetness and cinnamon like spicyness with a very pronounced watermelon and grapefruit note. Very untypical for a honey procest brasil.
Once I bought a bag of coffee because it was described as condensed milk flan and mint notes. It was a medium-light roast, which tasted a little bit of fermented, in my opinion. From that, I couldn't even decide if I enjoyed it or not. But, a remarkable experience, since I never forgot it.
I think there's a huge difference between how we brew/drink our coffee and how that same coffee is being tested in a cupping session by experts. I think if most people drink coffee in an Indonesian traditional brewing method (Tubruk) they might taste some notes, but I agree that it's not the best way for us coffee lovers to make it just about the notes. Thanks for the content, and best of luck 👍🏻
I normally start with do I like the coffee or not! Then I'm looking at the sweetness, acidity, bitterness and the mouth feel, is it silky, smooth, lingering and then I see about what can I find, but trying to keep it as basic as possible. When I go by coffee I more look for origin and process, then I normally look for some acidity or complexity description on the back, and then most cups I'll just enjoy and some I'll look for some flavors popping out.
I feel this recently, I don't mind specific tasting notes that i feel are just going over my head, but sometimes I scratch my head or even scoff when i see a tasting note that seems..unlikely (mentions of candy or baked goods). I do as you said, and look for nut- or wood-related tasting notes and ignore the specifics.
These are great points. I agree. But I think the problem here is in QUALITY. If you have a 90pt coffee.. there is no doubt that the flavor notes will be distinctive and clear. I once pulled a Finca Nuguo natural gesha in 4 different parameters and no matter what I did, it tasted like blueberries. I brewed it on Aeropress and espresso with milk and whatever. The notes were still distinctive and clear. The problem is when we get to low 80 pt coffees, where its still specialty coffee but the flavors wont be as clear. It will be muddled and harder to identiy. Perhaps the solution is we should be specific with a very high quality coffee and more broad with a lower quality coffee.
I can see what you’re saying. But those 90 point coffees are just so expensive and really aren’t accessible to most people, nor are they realistic for most farms to produce. I think it’s an interesting points, and coffee grading may be another great topic for a video in the future. But to be honest I’ve had about 10-15 90+ coffees in my life, none of which were as memorable as some of the 85-88 pointers I’ve had also. I think that it’s more dependent on who’s doing the tasting.
After watching this video I got gifted a bag of beans so I decided to put what I learned to the test. The beans said "Raisins and malt, Floral and chocolate notes, and brown sugar". This time I held back my expectations, normally I'd wholeheartedly assume that the roaster meant that the coffee tasted exactly like raisins, and that I was incompetent for not being able to find those notes... but instead I figured that I would just taste something along the lines of 'raisin-like"..... Lo and behold, the coffee literally tasted like raisins with a strong aftertaste of brown sugar. So surprised! First time that ever worked for me. I think it was because I set reasonable expectations this time around and finally felt proud when I could taste something along those lines! (unlike being constantly disappointed that my other coffee with "black forest fruitcake with biscotti undertones" that was nowhere near that description).
Mango White Claw though. I purchased a bag of coffee once and was able to get blueberry muffin notes, I know very specific. The flavor notes on the bag said "fruity, milk chocolate, syrupy." I liked it so much I got another bag but was never able to recreate the blueberry muffin notes. Maybe it was a "bad batch," ha! Coffee I use was the Counter Culture Coffee | Hologram
Honestly I don't want orange, caramel or leather in my coffee in the first place. I want coffee that tastes like coffee with accents of coffee and a hint of coffee notes. I'm done wasting my 5 minutes of drinking trying to find hidden treasures when the most obvious is the only I want and enjoy. Great video.
The SCA has attributes that correspond to the flavor wheel e.g strawberry related to dole strawberries. This helps narrow down issues where strawberries can be entirely different tastes in different parts of the world
Spot on. I think unfortunately a lot of the misconceptions around flavor notes in coffee are due to actual flavored coffees existing. Whether it's some caramel mocha sugar indused coma from Sbux or some hazelnut flavored French roast that made the coffee isle smell sooo good as a kid. This has made people approach flavor notes as more of a prescription than a general guide. They see raspberry on the bag, they're expecting to taste a blue jollyrancher when they drink it. If people would instead view them like they do in wine or whiskey, as an element of highly calibrated tasting, we wouldn't have such an issue. Once your palate is developed, those flavor notes tend to jump off the bag a lot more readily. I also have always advocated for comparative side-by-side tastings for anyone who has trouble tasting the nuances in a coffee. Comparing two very different coffees like a natural Ethiopian to a washed Guatemalan will make any differences really stand out. Of course, sometimes those notes (mango white claw) are pure marketing BS, but if it is from a reputable roaster, and a very special varietal like a Gesha, you'll likely taste that mango nuance potentially accomoanied by a seemingly sparkling acidity, where you can ALMOST agree with the sentiment.
For sure. I think there are some confusions out there about the difference of flavor vs flavored. They are two very distinct differences. That coffee is from a reputable roaster, but it’s definitely a marketing ploy. It could likely have some mango flavors, but tacking on white claw is just kind of..meh to me.
As someone who enjoys coffee and has recently gone deeper into the coffee rabbit hole by buying a grinder, all I want (for now) is a solid cup of coffee when I wake up. The biggest hurdle is making it correctly so tasting it is more troubleshooting sometimes and less about weird descriptions that I can't begin to relate to. Hell I'm just trying to figure out if the beans I just bought at the local rosters is actually fresh or if I'm doing something wrong. I don't care if they keep the descriptions but give a simple, efficient version of the main attributes of coffee. Someone else in the comments section said there was a star rating system for each so body*** acidity** and so on. It's frustrating not tasting what's on the bag and then wondering where you screwed up. This new world of specialty coffee is a bit intimidating and having these ridiculous descriptions doesn't help. You almost get the feeling it's a cabal full of pretentious jack offs that determine what's good and what's bad, like coffee is an exclusive club. I like what I like, get f*cked. How's that for a rant? lol
Nice video! in my opinion, there’s nothing wrong in putting those specific notes as long as they are not complicated, legit in that coffee or they make sure that consumers will taste what u put on the description. Yes it’s a marketing strategy but it’s also a guide for the consumers. When you are new to artisanal coffee you will need those guide to have an idea on what flavors to expect. It is not guaranteed that you will taste those note descriptions because some might not be familiar to you or your palate is not that developed yet, but some people might. I would suggest they stick to SCA flavor wheel when describing flavor notes, I mean those are also specific notes but not complicated because it can be relatable to majority of coffee consumers. I am a barista, roaster and a licensed Q grader. In our q class they trained us to develop our tasting skill thru cupping sessions. And in order for a specific note to be accepted as legit, we must be calibrated or come up with the same taste description. Ofcourse we are not allowed to talk during cupping sessions to avoid bias.. My point is as long as those flavor notes they put on the coffee bags are described by atleast 3 people who are calibrated and not just 1 person which can lead to bias descriptions, then it can be highly reliable. Just my opinion.
I think that sticking to the flavor wheel is a solid idea. The marketing of these wild notes creates a nearly unreachable peak for people that will result in at the very least disappointment and buyers remorse. I’m not a Q grader, but it’s on my to-do list for the future. I definitely see the benefit of not talking. Bias is real. It’s just as suggestive as flavor notes on the bag. Leading can take the accuracy right out of the equation. Thanks for watching and your informed opinion.
Ritual Coffee Roasters here in the Bay Area is probably the biggest offender of outlandish notes lol. It was for laughs but one time they had the note of “freedom” for a seasonal blend around July
I cupped a couple coffees at home without looking at the tasting notes while I did. Towards the end I grabbed the bags and sipped the coffees while reading the notes to see if I was picking up the flavors they listed. The coffees were particularity different but I don't have the refined skill of isolating flavors other than the broad strokes. I was impressed how most of the bags seemed to define the flavors I was tasting but in a way that I had trouble putting into words, Or that was until I realized one of the bags I was reading from wasn't the right bag for the coffee. I grabbed the right bag and realized how I was embracing the suggestive power of the flavor notes. I don't think its a bad thing to let the flavor notes push you in the right direction but there are some times that they seem to need more context. I had a bag with "grape" as a tasting note for a medium roast coffee, the best way I was able to describe how that translated AT ALL to my roommate who I made a cup was the tartness of a green grape is the same kind of tartness in the cup, which felt like a stretch, but it didn't taste of the fruit at all.
potatotr33 it’s definitely all good to look at the notes, and everyone has their own processes I’m sure. The note of grape seems vague. There’s lots of grapes out there. Like the ones that taste like cotton candy. I can definitely see a the tartness being part of it. I also don’t think notes on bags go specifically into acidity comparisons more so than tasting notes. There needs to be a bridge over that gap too.
I'm fine(*insert Ross being fine here) with them putting (weird) tasting notes in there. As long as they put the specific steps or techniques on how to brew to have that (weird) tasting notes. For me, that's a win-win.
Good point! What is the relationship between enjoyment of a very well brewed cup of coffee and the impact of tasting notes for individuals not highly trained as tasters?
I agree with the need to move away from obscure, specific notes and towards broader, more general notes- but I think it's an uphill battle, if not already lost. As with wine and beer, when people's palettes got more refined, there was an explosion of one-upsmanship with tasting notes: cut grass, tennis balls, pencil lead... It's bound to happen with coffee too. The public likes to feel like they can taste things that others cannot, and that will lead coffee roasters labeling bags like wine stores clerks placard their bottles.
hopelesshindu yeah I’m not sure we can go that direction, or if the general coffee buying public would be into it. I do think there is a level of one-upsmanship in the case of some flavor notes. It’s an interesting blend of coffee and psychology.
I’m pleased someone spoke out about this. I’ve always felt it is purely marketing and apes the wine industry. Yep, too often I buy based on those notes. I’m starting to pay attention to country, variety and altitude. I need to stop buying Geisha all the time though!
I agree with everything you said, except for the title. Flavor notes shouldn't be stopped, because as you said it's something that occurs natural in the bean and not added. I completely agree with removing these ridiculous notes like "breakfast cereal", "Nerds candy" and WTF? "Road Trips"? I've never seen such stupidity. I personally enjoy flavor notes and I'm pretty surprised to discover notes myself especially on coffees that don't have the notes listed. I recently had a Colombian coffee and found to have caramel and wine notes and was amazed when I read a review and listed the same notes.
I loved this video. And yes, I have bought coffee because of the flavor notes on the bag. I also have bought wine because of the label and beer because of the cool brewery name.
In general I like flavour notes, sure I often look at the box but I’m usually able to get 1-2 notes, but the 3rd one and later I usually don’t... In general I’m not sure I’m much more concerned about the notes than being happy with “red berries”... Personally I hate when coffee packages show tasting notes outside the flavour wheel. Otherwise I like them for the purpose of showing me whether the tasting notes are in the right general direction... I bought a coffee a few months back that said blackberry crumble, lime and sugarcane and didn’t love it, therefore I now get a little skeptical about flavour notes close to blueberry. And that’s good to know 👍🏻 Also lately I’ve had a couple of coffees that have had flavour notes like papaya, mango, pineapple and having flavour notes have helped me locate other coffees with a similar taste profile 😁
I'm on board here...tasting notes are a double edged sword. On one hand, they are generally useful for identifying the roast and profile of a cup if the roaster doesn't provide any guidance. They also provide some good guidance if you're keen on CHASING that flavor through cupping. I've been to a lot of public cuppings and done some of my own, too...but I still REALLY struggle to get to the level where I can capture those notes through cupping. It is really really hard, and even when I use good water and am methodical, I can't get them. It makes me 1) Frustrated and 2) want to expand my skills in tasting. So for now, I'll keep practicing but definitely won't get down if I don't taste them, ya know?
Nothing wrong with wanting to expand your tasting ability that’s for sure. I love tasting as many coffees as possible. One of the most fun things I get to do as a roaster is sampling tons of a coffee per month.
Awesome content. I definitely bought some coffee because of the tasting notes. Not so long ago I bought some Dark roasted Kenyan AA beans form a local roaster with tasting notes of Dark chocolate, dark fruits and ashes (!).. it tasted great, some of the best drip coffee I’ve had. Did I really get the tasting notes ? Well dark chocolate I would say yes, and it didn’t taste like ashes but for me it was a way to say it tasted kind of smoky, like many dark roasts.
When I received your first coffee, the yirgacheffe, I saw Jasmine and was confused. I've had jasmine tea and thought maybe the coffee would be tea like? The most pronounced flavor for that coffee was the mandarin by far in my opinion. If I think hard about it, maybe there's some jasmine in the aroma haha. I agree that it should be a guide.
@@Sprometheus sadly I think most of the flavor from coffee comes from the aroma and doesn't transfer to the taste. Still great that we can smell it but it'll be even better if the flavor was there too.
@@Sprometheus by the way, have you been using the Kruve glass cups since your video? I'm considering picking them up. I'd like to hear your long term thoughts on them.
This has been my most recent struggle. I most commonly go Blaming myself, thinking that I have no talent or sensibility on tasting at all, or that my pouring technique is awful, or not having a burr grinder for not finding those "white petals" on a 60% gesha blend. I totally feel like a looser for not going beyond dark or light chocolate, seeds or nut, fresh fruit o dried fruit, herbs or wood flavors... but thanks again for giving us some "light" at the end of the road for this topic.
I agree with most. However, if you cant taste the flavors even after youve read the notes… dont worry about flavors. You likely cant distinguish it. Just think about it as coffee
While some are certainly a marketing ploy, sometimes I buy a bag or two for my parents and my mom wants to know which bean will go best with the breakfast we plan on having. So it's a been a genuinely useful thing for me, occasionally, with generic flavors such as "stonefruit" or "blueberry" or "chocolate", for examples. We've definitely rolled our eyes at some of the notes though.
I kind of like those specific notes. I find chasing certain flavors quite enjoyable and part of the whole experience. In Berlin we have a couple of awesome specialty roasters (such as The Barn) and I love their floral and fruity notes. One can really taste certain fruits (e.g. strawberry, orange peel, etc.). Of course, I learned to be realistic about my expectations and be ok with failing to achieve certain flavors.
For sure! I get you. I too enjoy the chase, and it’s kind of a game. Like I mentioned in the video. But I think that game should have clear lines and rules so those new to coffee may not think that these should be obvious flavors. I think just an open discussion like what we’re having now about expectation vs reality, is key to future success in keeping those hyper specific notes on the bag.
Very solid video! As a beginner I'm still beginning to even know what notes are. But I have some thoughts on this. It seems to me that brewing methods are like Photoshop filters, they can augment things, can reduce or even distort features in a photo. So if we think of brewing methods in this way, maybe using a more "neutral" method and recipe should at least put me in the right direction, no? For example, I just learned that SCA has a ratio for cupping, along with some instructions for waiting X minutes, do this, do that, drink. So maybe using cupping, or French Press with the same ratio and instructions from SCA cupping, that should help, no? Thanks!
I think instead of hyper specific like lime peel or cherry we could use things like citrus fruit or dark fruit. Let them be guide stones but not specific sites to be seen, or tasted as it were.
What's a next step for an air popcorn poper roaster to do to increase flavoring profile? Modify the popper? Get an actual home roaster? Is there a device I can integrate into my popper to control temperature?
Excellent video! I think roasters should cover flavor notes with some tape so that people who want to try and guess notes by themselves would be allowed to do so.
I had an Ethiopian natural process coffee that when I first tried it tasted literally like wild blueberries (and was terribly overextracted because I didn't dial it in yet) and I was completely baffled. When I dialed in the coffee to a much more reasonable extraction, most of those notes disappeared, and I only really noticed them again when I overextracted the grounds again as a sanity check. I feel like some roasters are more reliable than others in trying to convey the flavor of the coffee in the flavor notes, but I wonder if at least some of it has to do with cupping vs other methods of brewing the coffee?
Oh yeah I love those blueberry forward Ethiopians! Definitely an amazing experience to have, over extracted or not. I do think there is a huge difference in cupping vs brewing coffees so the flavors can be significantly different.
I have tasted raspberry in coffee that is supposed to be chocolately, before. The one time however, when I really hit the advertised notes was an 100% Robusta that tasted like licorice and marzipan. That one was really really good... sadly, a limited offer.
You made some valid points. Will I start judging the coffee or the brew by those notes alone? (which could easily send me down a rabbit hole looking for the correct brew ratios if those notes don't show up..) Also will I not pick a bag because it has notes I don't want?
I like your comments and thoughts. I would go further and say there, more often than less, tends to be a positive correlation between as pricier the coffee as more odd flavor notes are attached to it. More of a foul marketing method to justify the means. I do not like it especially in cases flavor notes are contradictory. E.g. if the coffee is described as highly acidic, citric is it possible that there is also a 'black tea like taste note?? I do not think so.
An interesting idea I just had: Broad categories like that Kickapoo coffee and also something like a scratch-off bit at the back with more specific flavours. So you get some idea about the coffee when you buy it and after you've tasted the best the coffee has to offer, you can scratch off that bit to see what notes the roasters and graders tasted.
So for people who want that specific notes, they can choose to see it first through that scratch-off or maybe even a QR code or weblink with those details and for everyone else discover it after they've tried it.
I think that’s a great idea. Definitely something worth flushing out. Could be a fun way to test yourself against the roasters and cuppers.
@@Sprometheus Yeah . I think it's a best of both worlds scenario , plus the consumer can get better at tasting more niche notes, if they turn out to be accurate.
That's so weird I was literally about comment the exact same thing lmao
I like it!
This is perfect. I'm so sick of reading the complicated tasting notes on the bag. Especially those that are cultural or regional specific. Roasters should know, not all their customers have the same life experience. It also posting a bit of obnoxious in the label. I seriously doubt if most of us can 100% replicate it in home environment. If they want to claim such notes, they should come and make it for us LOL
I love this rant! The coffee industry has been getting away with hype for too long. Who made the infamous "Andean Red Custard Rambutan" peaberry coffee? That was my favorite. It tasted like coffee.
Thank you my friend! Glad you enjoyed the video, and I haven’t had that coffee but that sounds like quite a specific note!
Thank you for making this video, I’ve been starting to think either my sense of taste is off or my brew method isn’t where it should be as I can rarely taste the flavour notes on a bag. As someone that’s fairly new to specialty coffee, I find flavour notes both appealing (peach notes sounds good) and disappointing (I can’t taste any peach!). You’ve restored some confidence in me, I’ll definitely be taking those notes with a bigger pinch of salt!
You’re welcome! Happy to help and restore some confidence. Keep at it, and from time to time you’ll have a coffee that will blow you away with the flavors. But it’s the exception, and not the rule. Thanks for watching!
So I have had a similar experience but I learnt that changing the drink based on coffee taste notes help a lot. Case 1: orange juice, raspberry, dates- depending on how much I extract it it feels like raspberry or dates(if a little sugar is added) added sparkling water to my Aeropress brew and felt like orange juice. Case 2: found a coffee with banana taste notes never felt it in an Aeropress brew but then I make a bon bon using an expresso shot, tasted like a frickkin banana milkshake coffee!!
When I worked at a cafe / roaster in Vancouver, we had a coffee with the note, “Burgundian forest floor” hahahahaha
That doesn’t even sound like it would taste good! Haha
All due respect if you guys cant taste terroir. Its on you.
A fancy way of saying "it tastes like musty dirt" :)
Lol yeah that one’s gonna be earth 😂😂
I think that some flavor notes are really clear in the coffee such as grapes or berries. But some are really just to get our attention
That’s for sure! A mix of education and marketing.
Thanks for making this video and it describes what I have been thinking for the last few years now. I have been a coffee enthusiast for more than a decade, always experimenting with different sources and brewing methods. For the first few years I tried very hard to "find" the flavour notes as suggested by the roasters and probably failed to taste 70% of them. I blamed it on my lackluster tastebuds. I've now come full circle and believe those are mostly marketing tactics and more often than not do nothing to enhance my experience and enjoyment of my cup of coffee!
Thank you! As home barista that's been really into coffee for 20 years I thought I was a failure. I mean I never tasted these crazy flavours at really good cafes either, but I thought if I just kept tweaking I'd be able to taste these odd flavours but I never could. I think this lets me relax and just appreciate good coffee! Once in a while I make a cup that seems perfect to me, I can ignore now that I didn't get any hints of clementine orange peel coming through ...
"At night, when the jasmine blooms, a pretty deck of playing cards dissolves into layers of petals. The petals lie on a table in a tropical grove of papaya and pinapple. Mimosas are served."
Jb Oby that made me want to drink coffee.
If Apple made coffee.......
I have seen a roaster that uses stars as a guide
Sweet ******
Acidity *******
Bitter **
Body *
That so far was my favorite way of coffee description
IMO, body depends on how you brew it. It's the oils and non soluble solids that provide the body and those are filtered away when you use paper filters giving lighter body. French press doesn't filter them and will yield heavy, more syrupy coffee.
@@psychadeliq of course but different beans/roasts have different amounts of oils and so on that add to the body so the system indicates the body potential regardless of Brew method
I really like Sweet Maria's approach where they use a rose chart for this. Gives you a visual idea of the rough flavors to expect without getting specific to the point of making stuff up.
I can definitely see the value of this kind of scale. But like one of the comments mentioned these things can vary widely on how you prepare it. And things like acidity, sweetness, and body are kind of nebulous and not really defined in a way all people can understand or measure against. But such is the beauty of coffee.
@@Urtlesquirt I like Sweet Maria's scales as well. I think they are a good amount of detail, while still being pretty simple. And I've found them to be accurate.
One concept not mentioned in the video is the roasters using the phrase "this coffee reminds us of...". I really like this style of listing the notes, as it doesn't force the consumer to feel a certain way about their own experience, but rather presents a simple opinion of the roaster, and can lead the consumer in the right direction when purchasing coffee
Great video!
I used to be turned down by some creative notes that I couldn’t taste. I thought it was because of my dumb taste buds or my awful brewing methods. Thanks for your video! Now I think what really matters by the end of the day is whether you like this coffee or not. The notes are just there to guide you to choose your favorite coffee!
This just in: the diner down the street that says "worlds best diner" isn't actually the worlds best diner. Everything about coffee packaging is a marketing ploy. I totally agree with the points you're making.
Haha this reminds me of Elf. I may have to find a way to work that meme into a video in future
I really like Detour Coffee in Hamilton Ontario. They have a label art system where the shapes and colours on the bag roughly represent what the coffee tastes like. Sharper shapes are brighter and brighter colours are more acidic etc
I recently had some coffee from Kickapoo and appreciated the more general descriptions. After dialing it in I went on their website out of curiosity to find more specific flavor notes and it was fun to see how they compared with what I tasted. At the end of the day, I think general notes are pretty easy to agree upon and beyond that it comes down to personal experiences & memories for the super specific things.
That's a cool idea! Have notes on the bag, and then direct people to a website with more specific notes and more details about that specific roasting batch. Tell people who made the more specific tasting notes. Aficionados (of any sort of food or beverage) love this sort of thing. Not so much, the casual consumer--but the real lovers of whatever the product is. Perhaps even offer a short video from the roaster about roasting that batch of that particular coffee!
When I brew at home, I try to find the flavor notes before I look at the bag because I CAN NEVER TELL WHAT A GRAPEFRUIT OR GRAPES tastes like in an espresso or a pour-over. Because if I look at the flavor notes before I taste the coffee I brewed, I would either try to find that note so hard that it frustrates me or I would just lie to myself and be like, yeah, that tasted like watermelon. lol.
Thanks so much for this video, sir.
Agree with this SO MUCH. It is like being told that a movie (you haven't seen yet) is the BEST EVER. Your expectations are set so high that you can hardly help but be disappointed. (Odds are, anyway). Also, people don't all have the taste sensitivity, so what a Q Grader might taste and what I might taste are definitely two different things. I think some roasters do what they do on their labels just because they see somebody else doing it and copy it, without thinking it through. Or they mimic the green coffee sellers notes - which may be highly dependent upon the degree of roast. My coffee label (Cottage Food microroastery) is very minimalist. I'd like people to taste it and decide for themselves what they are tasting. The ultimate compliment is when they come back and order more!
I actually find them useful when picking coffee. I prefer more tropical fruit forward coffees and looking at the tasting notes helps me in deciding which to pick. I’m aware that I’m not going to be able to taste everything described but the main flavors are usually there.
Hey, you could just buy a pineapple.
I just bought a gesha from a world renowned roaster...and the first flavor note is Hubba Bubba
The only 2 notes that i managed to pick up were fruity and spicy. I still have no clue what chocolate or floral is.
I'm frustrated when I can't taste the fruity notes as written on the package, so out of curiosity I added a little orange zest during extraction, and it works superbly well, although I'm breaking the rules but the end result is amazing. Anyway I only use it to salvage coffee that had slightly lost its freshness.
I’m much the same and that’s good advice really. I will often use flavour notes to choose a coffee to buy, but then do my best to forget them before the first time I brew it. This is usually pretty easy if it’s being shipped to me and doesn’t arrive for a couple of days. I then always try the coffee at least once before going back to check the descriptors on the bag and sometimes I might get through a whole bag without referring to them. It’s interesting to compare, but I never get hung up on it If I don’t taste the same qualities in my cup.
Interesting considerations! Many times I've seen labels on the bag that "go too far". It's hard to be so specific when every customer has personal, cultural, and geographical perceptions for something that's supposed to be the same taste, but they don't feel that on the same coffee.
Great video!!!! I think I've had 5 bags of coffee that I've clearly tasted the notes described on the bag in the last 2 years. One of them was yours of course. Great vid
Azza thank you my friend! It’s an honor to be on that short list of accurate flavor notes!
Very honest video! I agree with you entirely. When I do taste the coffee notes indicated on the bag, it is because I have added a small quantity of cream and sugar...... Otherwise, the only thing I would taste would be burnt wood and Greek olives. I kid you not. It is a horrible experience ! Extraction has to be bang-on and have the exact amount of cream and sugar. I also find the espresso has to be at about 35 degrees Celsius, not steaming hot or heaven forbid with steamed milk. Steamed milk gives the beverage the impression that someone has added pressed linen in it.
Amen!!! I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I often buy coffee beans with appealing flavor profiles. Then get disappointed by not tasting them. I'm beginning to just enjoy a good cup of coffee for what it should be.
Yes fruit, nut, choocolate, herbs, earthy, is enough!
Love this video, it's so true, there should be more of a guidance or general agreed upon industry notes to describe flavour notes, what we have right now is helping yes, but also misleading a lot of times
I think that semi-general tasting notes are helpful. Like: floral, chocolate, fruity etc. And maybe a more general directions for example: wich kind of fruit is it: red fruits, citrus. That's enough.
Besides, I dislike when coffee becomes too hipster-oriented, with weird names, colorful package arts, very specific and long tasting descriptions. Just like with craft beer. It feels infantile
So glad you are talking about this. I'm new to roasting and have been upset that i just can't reach the notes on the bag. Started thinking that I'm off... Well i am. But not in a bad way.
Great video! I think you took the topic and made it super digestible. My introduction to fresh coffee was through roasting which I started as a money saver. When I first started I really tried to taste the notes they put on the greens. It can certainly be frustrating if you can’t. I started looking at flavor charts, and thought about home cupping... It’s a skill you need to learn and I feel like it’ll make me judge coffee even more harshly. No thanks! I may not taste pineapple, but this Costa Rica is definitely silky and that’s good enough for me.
-Joe
thanks Joe! Roasting for those green notes can be quite an experience. I tend to get one or two sometimes, but not all the time. It varies quite a bit. But yeah, the flavor note experience is just so broad and changes quite a bit. But glad you’re enjoying the coffee!
was using Lavazza espresso supreme creama, finally dialed it to dark, chocolate and smooth tasting. saw a local roaster avertising amazing coffee with all of these specific notes. before pulling the trigger went to their coffee shop and tried 3 types (espresso, cold pourover, slow pourover) yes, there was a slight difference, as all three were a bit more acidic than i liked. however, this saved me many $$ as i would never buy these specialty coffee as my palette is not so refined and i am truly thankful for that. thank you lavazza for making cofee affordable. also thank you for the rant, i am on the same boat.
You nailed it. The notes are a guide, but also often pure marketing. We tend to use colors and emotions instead. Great video!
In some ways, I think this is your best video yet. Looking forward to the next ones already.
Harken Cafe in Vancouver has a colour bar on their bags. It's useful. Dark brown is a more traditional espresso, peaches and pinks tend to be brighter and fruitier. They throw some flavour notes in there too, but I let the colours be my primary guide. I think we should narrow it down to more general notes, as Prometheus suggests. Jammy, rounded, sharp, smooth, chocolate, fruity, etc.
I’ve bought a bag on notes alone on many occasions. I’m not ashamed of that and i find the notes, like you said, helpful in guiding me towards a bag I’d enjoy. I did recently buy a bag with the WILD listed note of “watermelon jolly rancher..” While I admit the coffee when cooled had a fun and refreshing watermelon rind taste to it. I didn’t experience the candy aspect of it and honestly feel like they went over the edge and at that point it was just for marketing. Nice video btw, really enjoy your stuff Man!
Oh yeah. It seems like when they taste a flavor like watermelon it doesn’t seem like it’s popping enough for a bag. So add jolly rancher to it and you’re all set, haha. Thanks for watching, I appreciate the support and the kind words!
Thanks for doing this! I'm newbie on my coffee journey and started out as a person who loved coffee smell but cared little for the taste. 20 years, a coffee shop ownership and an ongoing career in the food industry later, I have arrived at this aspiration. I buy a coffee based on the appealing fragrance of the bean (yes, I learned that term from your cupping tutorial) and am extremely happy if I can achieve a taste in my espresso or americano that matches that fragrance. Having said this, I continue to strive to pick out the exotic flavors that are usually called out on the packaging.
I love how it’s dried mango and not mango
I started the rabbit hole early this year. What I found was that the notes are a false marketing technique to make you want to purchase. I think the best way to choose coffee is go off what you like. So kind of what you stated, if you like fruity coffee go for those and use the tasting notes as a guide rather than something that is absolute. Personally I would go for coffee flavors that I can recognize as in I know what chocolate taste like, I know what honey taste like, etc. If I felt adventurous I would try it first, so I would ask the coffee shop to make me a shot of espresso if the coffee I want to buy. If I like it then I go for it.
Another great video. I've always thought it was a bit over the top. Toning it down a bit (or using broader notes as you suggest) sounds like a good place to start.
One tip I found that has actually really helped me is when seeing flavor notes on a bag, sometimes it is saying “I taste peach” but other times it’s referring to “sweetness like of a peach” so I tend to let flavor notes more guide me in is this coffee going to have heavier flavors or brighter and sweeter flavors vs specific flavors as listed on the bag
This is a fantastic video. It's clear and easy to understand your explanations. Thank you for providing this information.
I made 7 cups of fresh dark bean at 196 degrees espresso today back to back. All with different grind settings seeking different pull times while maintaining same output volume. It’s amazing to taste the differences. None of the tastes matched the bag description and I’ve got great equipment. I agree with your perspective. Good video.
The same "problem" exists with wine tasting, I suppose.
I stopped caring about them, most of the time my taste buds perceived such different notes from the bags.
I think the sca flavor wheel pictures you show in the video are extremely helpful vernacular for purchasers and sellers to use. This clarifies the expected taste which is a complicated mix of origin, processing, and roast. Not everyone will taste every flavor note. Explore and understand your palette. Once you find several you like and dislike you will find it much easier to buy new coffees that you will like. Personally i love coffees with blueberry, lemon, or lime notes. Grape and winey notes I avoid. I agree more flowery descriptions such as your mango white claw are indeed marketing junk.
You've pretty much nailed my opinion on flavor notes. First and foremost, they should (and usually) guide consumers into purchasing a coffee that they'll enjoy. Second, I believe the notes should be used as a general guideline for dialing in the coffee. Third, I think it's a combination of the power of suggestion and marketing. I tend to trust companies more that offer "generic" tasting notes. I'd prefer to buy a bag of coffee that claims tropical fruit tasting notes over dried mango (using one of your examples). I think it is a coffee company's duty to go a step forward or a step back on the tasting notes. Either simplify the notes to allow for more individualistic experience (and if you want crazy notes, the company could blog about the coffee tasting experience for each coffee), or the company should claim these notes and then provide a guideline on brewing. I love buying coffees with espresso parameter suggestions; although I don't always follow their parameters, I find them helpful in the dialing in process, and I believe their notes to be more authentic as opposed to mere marketing. Obviously, any parameters would have to be adapted according to whatever brewing scenario you use (water, machine differences, etc.)--for instance, I have an Expobar Brewtus with a vibratory pump, where you have the La Marzocco Linea Mini. I find my pressure ramps up slower, so I typically end up with longer brew times to achieve similar extraction. Anyway, that's my rant; keep up the good work!
Certainly flavor notes are part of the coffee experience - coffee is a food 🥘 and a after all and can take on characteristics of the environment in which it’s cultivated. Beyond that many of the descriptors used seem reflective of a desire to attain the status, respectability and yes, pretentiousness of wine culture. Success ensures a class system of expert, hobbyist, and truck driver. It’s the one aspect of coffee I don’t enjoy. Thanks for shedding light on this. Oh and yes it’s All driven by marketing from the bean to the water to the equipment to the method. There’s always something else to buy so that your coffee will be a little better or to help you be a better brewer. Marketing is geared to direct us along the quest for the holy grail.
Excellent video idea dude.
I ordered the same green bag of Geshe a few days ago and I've seen it everywhere online since then. That's solid marketing
michalis9 for sure. I feel like it’s all marketing. It works.
"hot tire and burning clutch near the gas station car wash with a hint of sweet mellow brandy" is preferable to "taste of summer"
or just "rubber, petroleum and hint of brandy"
This was so helpful!! This has bothered me for years. I'll get excited about certain notes and then it's a let down if I don't taste the specific note. I've always appreciated when roasters offer an in depth description of what they taste. Instead of just lemon, they say lemon-like acidity. It implies an element of the tasting experience rather than the cup tasting like lemonade (which sometimes it does). It's also funny to see roasters like Vibrant use words such as "relaxed" or "comforting." Or Onyx's traditional-modern scale.
Evan Garner I’m happy to help! I saw this video as a possible risk but it’s been surprisingly positive in terms of response. Clearly a lot of people have been feeling the same.
I agree that I being more clear in terms of how that note hits, like a flavor, acidity, or texture. The weird notes like “luxurious” to me sound like a tactile mouthfeel thing, unless it’s leather. Leather tastes luxurious, haha.
Very solid opinion piece, and very funny. I agree wholeheartedly. My family refuses to drink coffee if it has flavor notes that are floral in any way, and I can't convince them how different they all are!
Thank God I found this video. As a beginner home brewer, it's very frustrating when I don't get the right notes. The first bag of beans I bought says "dried berries, green apple" but all I can taste are hints of chocolate with raisins plus some pleasant acidity.
The 2nd bag (different beans) I bought from the same roaster tastes the same as the first one. The notes include this one fruit but I can only smell it (from the whole beans) but I don't taste it :/
Getting kinda discouraged until I saw this video. For now, at least I know what my coffee shouldn't taste like.
What we do is we have tasting notes in the description on the website, but leave them off of the bag. That way customers can use the notes to make purchasing decisions and promptly forget those notes by the time they actually taste the coffee :)
love this approach
I do this with my own home roasts. I forget what’s on the label entirely by the time I drink a cup
I think it's a nice and weir way to connect with roasters... I mean, even though they're not with you when you're brewing and/or extracting your best shot. It's really fun to compare if you get those notes and which one may be missing (from their side) depending on your prep method. The key thing here is to not follow those notes as written in stone but as a nice cupping friend who share his/her thoughts.
It’s a bit ridiculous, as are the tasting notes that a lot of booze aficionados claim they can taste. Yes, tell me more about that fan-assisted oven baked chutney flavour
I feel like everyone has to do their job well in order for tasting notes to land. Roasters have to be able to bring the natural flavors of the coffee forward and brewer's have to know how to brew that coffee well in order for the coffees flavors to shine and on top of all that we all have to taste the same. The reality is we don't all taste the same and not everyone making coffee at home early in the morning is dialing in. I agree with you, tasting notes are still a guide and can help us dial in our brews a little better. For me though, I found learning how to taste for a well balanced, well rounded cup has done more for me than trying to pay attention to specific flavors. learning to pay attention to broader yet more foundational things like texture, body, sweetness, acidity, bitterness, sourness and how all those things interact with each other has done more for me than chasing flavor notes right off the bat. Once I feel a brew is balanced (or getting close to it) then I start to pay attention to flavor notes to maybe fine tune a little bit and bring forward certain aspects of that coffee I prefer more or just to enjoy in the cup. Cheers
That's what I like about Counter Culture coffee. They use general descriptions like fruity, floral, citrus, chocolate, smoky, nutty, etc.
I definitely relate to what’s said at 7 minutes! I recently took a dive into roasting so I can begin to truly blind test and check my pilate. I feel my palate is slightly guided by tasting notes stated on bags, but feel they should still be there and each person decides what type of coffee drinker they want to be regardless. Those that want to strive and taste all those notes will, while those that just want to enjoy “good” coffee will be guided simply by what they like
If you enjoy blind cupping I recommend checking out the Angel’s Cup subscription. It’s a blind cupping coffee subscription that has a tasting app that allows you to get brewing tips from the roaster then you taste it, make your origin and processing guesses and then it will reveal the roasters notes as well as all the others who tasted it. It’s a lot of fun. I plan on doing a video about it soon.
The Real Sprometheus thanks for the recommendation! I will look into it in the near future as I continue to progress. I definitely want to train/refine my palate. I look forward to your video on it!
Nice as Always!
I got a coffee for my birthday that tastes really like watermelon and grapefruit. Even though it was a honey procest coffee from brasil.
Marc Mädler thanks Marc, and that coffee sounds amazing!
The Real Sprometheus Yeah it was amazing...very balanced with bright acidity and molasses like sweetness and cinnamon like spicyness with a very pronounced watermelon and grapefruit note. Very untypical for a honey procest brasil.
I have never tasted a lot of these supposed flavours in coffee, I always thought it was my palate.
Tony Lawlor it may be partly your palate, but it’s the worth blaming yourself. Just keep tasting new coffees and growing that experience.
Once I bought a bag of coffee because it was described as condensed milk flan and mint notes. It was a medium-light roast, which tasted a little bit of fermented, in my opinion. From that, I couldn't even decide if I enjoyed it or not. But, a remarkable experience, since I never forgot it.
I think there's a huge difference between how we brew/drink our coffee and how that same coffee is being tested in a cupping session by experts. I think if most people drink coffee in an Indonesian traditional brewing method (Tubruk) they might taste some notes, but I agree that it's not the best way for us coffee lovers to make it just about the notes.
Thanks for the content, and best of luck 👍🏻
I normally start with do I like the coffee or not! Then I'm looking at the sweetness, acidity, bitterness and the mouth feel, is it silky, smooth, lingering and then I see about what can I find, but trying to keep it as basic as possible.
When I go by coffee I more look for origin and process, then I normally look for some acidity or complexity description on the back, and then most cups I'll just enjoy and some I'll look for some flavors popping out.
Joey Neubert Pedersen that’s a good way to go. Origin and process can definitely tell you quite a bit.
I feel this recently, I don't mind specific tasting notes that i feel are just going over my head, but sometimes I scratch my head or even scoff when i see a tasting note that seems..unlikely (mentions of candy or baked goods). I do as you said, and look for nut- or wood-related tasting notes and ignore the specifics.
These are great points. I agree. But I think the problem here is in QUALITY. If you have a 90pt coffee.. there is no doubt that the flavor notes will be distinctive and clear. I once pulled a Finca Nuguo natural gesha in 4 different parameters and no matter what I did, it tasted like blueberries. I brewed it on Aeropress and espresso with milk and whatever. The notes were still distinctive and clear. The problem is when we get to low 80 pt coffees, where its still specialty coffee but the flavors wont be as clear. It will be muddled and harder to identiy. Perhaps the solution is we should be specific with a very high quality coffee and more broad with a lower quality coffee.
I can see what you’re saying. But those 90 point coffees are just so expensive and really aren’t accessible to most people, nor are they realistic for most farms to produce. I think it’s an interesting points, and coffee grading may be another great topic for a video in the future.
But to be honest I’ve had about 10-15 90+ coffees in my life, none of which were as memorable as some of the 85-88 pointers I’ve had also. I think that it’s more dependent on who’s doing the tasting.
After watching this video I got gifted a bag of beans so I decided to put what I learned to the test. The beans said "Raisins and malt, Floral and chocolate notes, and brown sugar". This time I held back my expectations, normally I'd wholeheartedly assume that the roaster meant that the coffee tasted exactly like raisins, and that I was incompetent for not being able to find those notes... but instead I figured that I would just taste something along the lines of 'raisin-like"..... Lo and behold, the coffee literally tasted like raisins with a strong aftertaste of brown sugar. So surprised! First time that ever worked for me. I think it was because I set reasonable expectations this time around and finally felt proud when I could taste something along those lines! (unlike being constantly disappointed that my other coffee with "black forest fruitcake with biscotti undertones" that was nowhere near that description).
Mango White Claw though.
I purchased a bag of coffee once and was able to get blueberry muffin notes, I know very specific. The flavor notes on the bag said "fruity, milk chocolate, syrupy." I liked it so much I got another bag but was never able to recreate the blueberry muffin notes. Maybe it was a "bad batch," ha!
Coffee I use was the Counter Culture Coffee | Hologram
Honestly I don't want orange, caramel or leather in my coffee in the first place. I want coffee that tastes like coffee with accents of coffee and a hint of coffee notes. I'm done wasting my 5 minutes of drinking trying to find hidden treasures when the most obvious is the only I want and enjoy. Great video.
The SCA has attributes that correspond to the flavor wheel e.g strawberry related to dole strawberries. This helps narrow down issues where strawberries can be entirely different tastes in different parts of the world
Spot on. I think unfortunately a lot of the misconceptions around flavor notes in coffee are due to actual flavored coffees existing. Whether it's some caramel mocha sugar indused coma from Sbux or some hazelnut flavored French roast that made the coffee isle smell sooo good as a kid. This has made people approach flavor notes as more of a prescription than a general guide. They see raspberry on the bag, they're expecting to taste a blue jollyrancher when they drink it. If people would instead view them like they do in wine or whiskey, as an element of highly calibrated tasting, we wouldn't have such an issue. Once your palate is developed, those flavor notes tend to jump off the bag a lot more readily. I also have always advocated for comparative side-by-side tastings for anyone who has trouble tasting the nuances in a coffee. Comparing two very different coffees like a natural Ethiopian to a washed Guatemalan will make any differences really stand out. Of course, sometimes those notes (mango white claw) are pure marketing BS, but if it is from a reputable roaster, and a very special varietal like a Gesha, you'll likely taste that mango nuance potentially accomoanied by a seemingly sparkling acidity, where you can ALMOST agree with the sentiment.
For sure. I think there are some confusions out there about the difference of flavor vs flavored. They are two very distinct differences.
That coffee is from a reputable roaster, but it’s definitely a marketing ploy. It could likely have some mango flavors, but tacking on white claw is just kind of..meh to me.
As someone who enjoys coffee and has recently gone deeper into the coffee rabbit hole by buying a grinder, all I want (for now) is a solid cup of coffee when I wake up.
The biggest hurdle is making it correctly so tasting it is more troubleshooting sometimes and less about weird descriptions that I can't begin to relate to. Hell I'm just trying to figure out if the beans I just bought at the local rosters is actually fresh or if I'm doing something wrong.
I don't care if they keep the descriptions but give a simple, efficient version of the main attributes of coffee. Someone else in the comments section said there was a star rating system for each so body*** acidity** and so on. It's frustrating not tasting what's on the bag and then wondering where you screwed up.
This new world of specialty coffee is a bit intimidating and having these ridiculous descriptions doesn't help. You almost get the feeling it's a cabal full of pretentious jack offs that determine what's good and what's bad, like coffee is an exclusive club. I like what I like, get f*cked.
How's that for a rant? lol
Nice video! in my opinion, there’s nothing wrong in putting those specific notes as long as they are not complicated, legit in that coffee or they make sure that consumers will taste what u put on the description. Yes it’s a marketing strategy but it’s also a guide for the consumers. When you are new to artisanal coffee you will need those guide to have an idea on what flavors to expect. It is not guaranteed that you will taste those note descriptions because some might not be familiar to you or your palate is not that developed yet, but some people might. I would suggest they stick to SCA flavor wheel when describing flavor notes, I mean those are also specific notes but not complicated because it can be relatable to majority of coffee consumers.
I am a barista, roaster and a licensed Q grader. In our q class they trained us to develop our tasting skill thru cupping sessions. And in order for a specific note to be accepted as legit, we must be calibrated or come up with the same taste description. Ofcourse we are not allowed to talk during cupping sessions to avoid bias..
My point is as long as those flavor notes they put on the coffee bags are described by atleast 3 people who are calibrated and not just 1 person which can lead to bias descriptions, then it can be highly reliable. Just my opinion.
I think that sticking to the flavor wheel is a solid idea. The marketing of these wild notes creates a nearly unreachable peak for people that will result in at the very least disappointment and buyers remorse.
I’m not a Q grader, but it’s on my to-do list for the future. I definitely see the benefit of not talking. Bias is real. It’s just as suggestive as flavor notes on the bag. Leading can take the accuracy right out of the equation.
Thanks for watching and your informed opinion.
The Brita filter reference got me lol’ing. We’ve all been there!
Ritual Coffee Roasters here in the Bay Area is probably the biggest offender of outlandish notes lol. It was for laughs but one time they had the note of “freedom” for a seasonal blend around July
I cupped a couple coffees at home without looking at the tasting notes while I did. Towards the end I grabbed the bags and sipped the coffees while reading the notes to see if I was picking up the flavors they listed. The coffees were particularity different but I don't have the refined skill of isolating flavors other than the broad strokes. I was impressed how most of the bags seemed to define the flavors I was tasting but in a way that I had trouble putting into words, Or that was until I realized one of the bags I was reading from wasn't the right bag for the coffee. I grabbed the right bag and realized how I was embracing the suggestive power of the flavor notes.
I don't think its a bad thing to let the flavor notes push you in the right direction but there are some times that they seem to need more context.
I had a bag with "grape" as a tasting note for a medium roast coffee, the best way I was able to describe how that translated AT ALL to my roommate who I made a cup was the tartness of a green grape is the same kind of tartness in the cup, which felt like a stretch, but it didn't taste of the fruit at all.
potatotr33 it’s definitely all good to look at the notes, and everyone has their own processes I’m sure.
The note of grape seems vague. There’s lots of grapes out there. Like the ones that taste like cotton candy. I can definitely see a the tartness being part of it. I also don’t think notes on bags go specifically into acidity comparisons more so than tasting notes. There needs to be a bridge over that gap too.
@@Sprometheus Agreed, quite vague but not in a good vague way. I prefer "fruity" to "grape" but "citrus" is too vague to be helpful generally.
I'm fine(*insert Ross being fine here) with them putting (weird) tasting notes in there. As long as they put the specific steps or techniques on how to brew to have that (weird) tasting notes. For me, that's a win-win.
Good point! What is the relationship between enjoyment of a very well brewed cup of coffee and the impact of tasting notes for individuals not highly trained as tasters?
I agree with the need to move away from obscure, specific notes and towards broader, more general notes- but I think it's an uphill battle, if not already lost. As with wine and beer, when people's palettes got more refined, there was an explosion of one-upsmanship with tasting notes: cut grass, tennis balls, pencil lead... It's bound to happen with coffee too. The public likes to feel like they can taste things that others cannot, and that will lead coffee roasters labeling bags like wine stores clerks placard their bottles.
hopelesshindu yeah I’m not sure we can go that direction, or if the general coffee buying public would be into it. I do think there is a level of one-upsmanship in the case of some flavor notes. It’s an interesting blend of coffee and psychology.
I’m pleased someone spoke out about this. I’ve always felt it is purely marketing and apes the wine industry. Yep, too often I buy based on those notes. I’m starting to pay attention to country, variety and altitude. I need to stop buying Geisha all the time though!
I agree with everything you said, except for the title. Flavor notes shouldn't be stopped, because as you said it's something that occurs natural in the bean and not added. I completely agree with removing these ridiculous notes like "breakfast cereal", "Nerds candy" and WTF? "Road Trips"? I've never seen such stupidity. I personally enjoy flavor notes and I'm pretty surprised to discover notes myself especially on coffees that don't have the notes listed. I recently had a Colombian coffee and found to have caramel and wine notes and was amazed when I read a review and listed the same notes.
I loved this video. And yes, I have bought coffee because of the flavor notes on the bag. I also have bought wine because of the label and beer because of the cool brewery name.
In general I like flavour notes, sure I often look at the box but I’m usually able to get 1-2 notes, but the 3rd one and later I usually don’t... In general I’m not sure I’m much more concerned about the notes than being happy with “red berries”... Personally I hate when coffee packages show tasting notes outside the flavour wheel. Otherwise I like them for the purpose of showing me whether the tasting notes are in the right general direction... I bought a coffee a few months back that said blackberry crumble, lime and sugarcane and didn’t love it, therefore I now get a little skeptical about flavour notes close to blueberry. And that’s good to know 👍🏻 Also lately I’ve had a couple of coffees that have had flavour notes like papaya, mango, pineapple and having flavour notes have helped me locate other coffees with a similar taste profile 😁
I'm on board here...tasting notes are a double edged sword. On one hand, they are generally useful for identifying the roast and profile of a cup if the roaster doesn't provide any guidance. They also provide some good guidance if you're keen on CHASING that flavor through cupping.
I've been to a lot of public cuppings and done some of my own, too...but I still REALLY struggle to get to the level where I can capture those notes through cupping. It is really really hard, and even when I use good water and am methodical, I can't get them. It makes me 1) Frustrated and 2) want to expand my skills in tasting. So for now, I'll keep practicing but definitely won't get down if I don't taste them, ya know?
Nothing wrong with wanting to expand your tasting ability that’s for sure. I love tasting as many coffees as possible. One of the most fun things I get to do as a roaster is sampling tons of a coffee per month.
Awesome content. I definitely bought some coffee because of the tasting notes. Not so long ago I bought some Dark roasted Kenyan AA beans form a local roaster with tasting notes of Dark chocolate, dark fruits and ashes (!).. it tasted great, some of the best drip coffee I’ve had. Did I really get the tasting notes ? Well dark chocolate I would say yes, and it didn’t taste like ashes but for me it was a way to say it tasted kind of smoky, like many dark roasts.
When I received your first coffee, the yirgacheffe, I saw Jasmine and was confused. I've had jasmine tea and thought maybe the coffee would be tea like? The most pronounced flavor for that coffee was the mandarin by far in my opinion. If I think hard about it, maybe there's some jasmine in the aroma haha.
I agree that it should be a guide.
Ricky Ng for sure. There’s lots of subtle flavors and they change all the time based on all kinds of factors.
@@Sprometheus sadly I think most of the flavor from coffee comes from the aroma and doesn't transfer to the taste. Still great that we can smell it but it'll be even better if the flavor was there too.
Ricky Ng aroma is a huge part of taste as well. They are definitely connected in a huge way.
@@Sprometheus by the way, have you been using the Kruve glass cups since your video? I'm considering picking them up. I'd like to hear your long term thoughts on them.
This has been my most recent struggle. I most commonly go Blaming myself, thinking that I have no talent or sensibility on tasting at all, or that my pouring technique is awful, or not having a burr grinder for not finding those "white petals" on a 60% gesha blend. I totally feel like a looser for not going beyond dark or light chocolate, seeds or nut, fresh fruit o dried fruit, herbs or wood flavors... but thanks again for giving us some "light" at the end of the road for this topic.
I agree with most. However, if you cant taste the flavors even after youve read the notes… dont worry about flavors. You likely cant distinguish it. Just think about it as coffee
While some are certainly a marketing ploy, sometimes I buy a bag or two for my parents and my mom wants to know which bean will go best with the breakfast we plan on having. So it's a been a genuinely useful thing for me, occasionally, with generic flavors such as "stonefruit" or "blueberry" or "chocolate", for examples. We've definitely rolled our eyes at some of the notes though.
I kind of like those specific notes. I find chasing certain flavors quite enjoyable and part of the whole experience. In Berlin we have a couple of awesome specialty roasters (such as The Barn) and I love their floral and fruity notes. One can really taste certain fruits (e.g. strawberry, orange peel, etc.). Of course, I learned to be realistic about my expectations and be ok with failing to achieve certain flavors.
For sure! I get you. I too enjoy the chase, and it’s kind of a game. Like I mentioned in the video. But I think that game should have clear lines and rules so those new to coffee may not think that these should be obvious flavors. I think just an open discussion like what we’re having now about expectation vs reality, is key to future success in keeping those hyper specific notes on the bag.
Very solid video! As a beginner I'm still beginning to even know what notes are. But I have some thoughts on this.
It seems to me that brewing methods are like Photoshop filters, they can augment things, can reduce or even distort features in a photo. So if we think of brewing methods in this way, maybe using a more "neutral" method and recipe should at least put me in the right direction, no? For example, I just learned that SCA has a ratio for cupping, along with some instructions for waiting X minutes, do this, do that, drink. So maybe using cupping, or French Press with the same ratio and instructions from SCA cupping, that should help, no? Thanks!
I think instead of hyper specific like lime peel or cherry we could use things like citrus fruit or dark fruit. Let them be guide stones but not specific sites to be seen, or tasted as it were.
What's a next step for an air popcorn poper roaster to do to increase flavoring profile? Modify the popper? Get an actual home roaster?
Is there a device I can integrate into my popper to control temperature?
Excellent video! I think roasters should cover flavor notes with some tape so that people who want to try and guess notes by themselves would be allowed to do so.
I had an Ethiopian natural process coffee that when I first tried it tasted literally like wild blueberries (and was terribly overextracted because I didn't dial it in yet) and I was completely baffled. When I dialed in the coffee to a much more reasonable extraction, most of those notes disappeared, and I only really noticed them again when I overextracted the grounds again as a sanity check.
I feel like some roasters are more reliable than others in trying to convey the flavor of the coffee in the flavor notes, but I wonder if at least some of it has to do with cupping vs other methods of brewing the coffee?
Oh yeah I love those blueberry forward Ethiopians! Definitely an amazing experience to have, over extracted or not.
I do think there is a huge difference in cupping vs brewing coffees so the flavors can be significantly different.
I have tasted raspberry in coffee that is supposed to be chocolately, before.
The one time however, when I really hit the advertised notes was an 100% Robusta that tasted like licorice and marzipan. That one was really really good... sadly, a limited offer.
That's exactly what i said to my friend, when i see some weird flavour in the bag. The guy who wrote the flavour have an insane tongue. 😂
You made some valid points.
Will I start judging the coffee or the brew by those notes alone? (which could easily send me down a rabbit hole looking for the correct brew ratios if those notes don't show up..)
Also will I not pick a bag because it has notes I don't want?
I like your comments and thoughts. I would go further and say there, more often than less, tends to be a positive correlation between as pricier the coffee as more odd flavor notes are attached to it. More of a foul marketing method to justify the means. I do not like it especially in cases flavor notes are contradictory. E.g. if the coffee is described as highly acidic, citric is it possible that there is also a 'black tea like taste note?? I do not think so.