SM vs JYP: A Lesson in Identity of K-pop Groups
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- Опубликовано: 11 дек 2024
- this might become a little mini tiny series if this episode does well. next episode i might talk about performance and compared SM with HYBE or smth like that idk, we'll see.
oh and i'd like to hear what you think about all this :)
about video -
• intro - 90's Love by NCT U
• outro - Back Door by Stray Kids
• thumbnail - Yeji of ITZY, Karina of aepsa
about me -
• 19, he/him
• rv, svt, stayc, izone, fromis, loona
• kim chaewon of le sserafim
• twt • / wntrosy
• spotify • open.spotify.c....
applications -
• final cut pro x
• adobe photoshop
• picsart
credits -
• Stray Kids - Back Door...
• GOT7 - NOT BY THE MOON...
• GOT7 - Never Ever (99%...
• Video
• aespa 'Thirsty' (Offic...
• Video
• Red Velvet - Automatic...
• RED VELVET - DUMB DUMB...
• [Clean Inst.] Red Velv...
• TWICE (트와이스) - TT (Ins...
tags -
#jyp #sm #kpop #korean #challenge #versus #battle #identity #koreanmusic #music #comeback #release #album #itzy #exo #got7 #straykids #twice #redvelvet #aespa #nct #tiktok #hybe #yg #smtown #yeji #karina #winter #ryujin #baekhyun #bts #seventeen #straykids #missa #snsd #chen #suho #do #jb #jinyoung #irene #wendy #seulgi #jihyo #nayeon #tzuyu #dahyun #chaeyoung #album #fyp #shorts #2023 #2019 #2016
this is why u’ll never see me stan a jype group
@@emosheeransupremacy5046exactly
@@emosheeransupremacy5046fromis best kpop group ever made
oh nmixx get up on the floor
who are you?
@@nika-fs3qqbefore Feel Good they didn’t have an identity too
sm is not a good company by any means but they just know how to make groups that won't just be forgotten in this mass of kpop groups, they know how to create them with strong and visible identities, something that will comeback after comeback have you thinking "wow this is what exo is" "this is so aespa". what stray kids has that the other jype groups perhaps lack is the ability to shape the group into what they want it to be by themselves. stray kids' identity has always been very clear and no matter how many genres or concepts they do it will be there as long as the members feel it and want to show it and i think that their biggest strength is the fact that they have some power over jype since the start of their career, they always knew what they wanted to do and they proved it to everyone including jype
this comment hits the mark.
you're so right gosh
Totally agree. I still listen to Twice and follow their instagrams, but I haven’t listened to really any of their music post 2021. I’ve listened to maybe one or two title tracks once or twice. But I mainly gravitate to their from 2016-2020. As I feel like they’ve sorta lost their once pronounced identity. Yeah it was the cute concept. But it really was their best music. Idk I just haven’t found it too interesting when you consider feel special and fancy you are songs they’ve released.
However this isn’t really the case for exo, red velvet or Aespa and maybe NCT. I’ve been a kpop fan since I was probably 7 or 8 and I was listening to shinee with my sister and cousins. And exo has kinda just always released good music that has recognizable voices. Maybe they aren’t as famous anymore red velvet and Exo but their sound and personality are still there after all these years.
Also I’d like to say that choosing the wrong concept is definitely possible. itzy had probably one of the best first couple songs released but after wannabe struggled to make something similar yet different. I literally haven’t listened to Itzys music in years as well.
However Day6 are very refined compared to the other groups imo. All of their music throughout the years are songs I’ve listened to over and over again. And shows that you need to really find your own concept that works.
They’re a good company in terms on artistry music, creating and forming but they suck at managing and marketing
exo and rv's musical mark on the industry can never ever be done again it is just historic and they just embody third gen kpop for me
I hope next cb they go for dark side. I still every yr on Halloween watch Pee Ka Boo, Bad Boy , Psycho. The creepy, uncanny, something is terribly wrong vibe - I absolutely love it! The Witchy atmosphere is perfect!!
I hope they release an album based on Halloween or Korean supernatural horror. It will be epic!!
exacltyyyy we need it likeee so bad@@Vor567tez
The biggest fumble from both companies will always be Miss A and F(x). Both groups released a similar amount of title tracks and both had heavy focus on one or two members. Both released there last song in 2015 and both promoted around the same time and debut in the shadows of there older sisters wonder girls and SNSD. The only diffrence is while it took a bit for f(x) to find there sound and niche sm started only giving them one comeback a year by the time they had carved out a full blown identity and started Promoting each member individually. As for Miss A they had huge exposure and won rookie awards and gained mega exposure at the start but by the time we reached 2015 the only member the public and general kpop fan knew from miss a was suzy. This is where i see SM and JYP both did terrible jobs with there groups and there groups where only a few months apart in age and also member age was quite similar.
Miss A ended their career with the song "Only You" getting multiple PAKs. This narrative that Suzy crazy popularity (basically once in a lifetime case) somehow destroyed Miss A music popularity is just factually incorrect. Miss A comebacks were successful until the very end.
We probably wouldn't have some of these groups if they were still around probably not just some of these groups they could have changed the course of music period both would have 🌬 blew up internationally ppl knew about electric shock in America when I first got into kpop in 2017 and they didn't even know what kpop was 😅 #rvontop ❤
This made me cry.
@@vivianlight- yes as a song it was a high charting song but all over colours as a ep was there lowest charting and selling album. Also there where long hiatus and periods of other members doing nothing between the release of hush and only you. 2 years with no sign of a comeback and 3 of the 4 members doing nothing only 4 years after debut in 2014 when this is the point where all the members should be doing things to build there brand as miss a. At the very start of miss a Jia and Fei where on a lot of variety shows but as time went on those role where only ever offered to suzy and yes she did her best sadly because of JYP only ever pushing Suzy to the front she's the only relevant member from miss a. While im trying to be as subjective as possible miss a could have 100 percent been handled better by JYP, it's one of the main reasons we are only just starting to get twice solos because JYP definitely dose not want a repeat where the group falls by the side because they pushed 1 idol instead of focusing on the group as a whole.
@@kaleidoscopekingdom you are very much correct we might not have had red velvet and twice debut tbh and kpop definitely would look very different.
i feel like nmixx is another example of jyp struggling with group identity. recently im struggling to figure out what they’re even trying to do with them😭
at least with twice and itzy it started happening a few years after their debut but nmixx only had ONE comeback (dice) that truly felt like nmixx and everything after that has been feeling like they’re a cover group.
people say that nmixxs concept was just copied from aespa but i think there is a lot of potential to do something unique and fresh with mixxpop/mixxtopia but jype really isn’t trying a lot.
currently nmixx feels like if red velvets concept was sloppily excecuted when they could be something amazing
tldr: nmixxs group identity started off well but jype fucked it up after ONE comeback
They definitely did that because of the backlash that they got for their style and I agree I hate their new sound, especially without jinni. The whole group just makes me angry now, not because of the girls but because of such wasted potential in their lore
@@amibae9157I really like their most recent songs, but it does make me angry that jyp folded so easily under pressure.
If it had been SM you know they would’ve just kept going and playing around with the idea of mix pop
@@LaurenPebble I agree with you, though I loved Nmixx's 1st EP, I wished they continued with the mix pop direction, I LOVED Dice, that song is a BOP!!
@@amibae9157 whats more frustrating is that you can see bits and pieces of their lore and og concept in their recent comebacks but clearly jype is too scared to fully dive into them in order to avoid any kind of backlash
but all that has resulted in is nmixx barely standing out as a group among 4th gen ggs except for their vocals
@@tolanisimpson5360I enjoy nmixx’s earlier releases, but def don’t find myself listening to them as much as basically anything else I enjoy.
There was totally a good idea there with mixpop but JYP didn’t have the perseverance to see it through and find the best version of it.
I think what makes SM groups stand out is the production. I am no company stan (I don't understand them) but when it comes to the production of both the music and concept, I fear no one is beating SM.
Out of BIG 3, SM easily take the cake of having *actually* interesting production!
I don't get "company stan" like people like that really exist?😂
@@MarkJasonTaguigit’s people who defend and act like one company is better (as if they ‘stan’ the company)
It’s weird asf 😭 esp considering how bad most companies are
@@stayville-connections its f*cking funny like how can a person stan a company🤣
We're here for music and the artist
@@MarkJasonTaguig fr
imo a factor that gives a group a solid identity is being one of the first to fill a niche or one that popularises it.
Yess and it's so sad when a group that popularizes a concept doesn't get as much attention as when a big4 group uses it later on
@@marymin808 true, but for example weki meki didn't necessarily start teen crush but they popularized it enough for jyp to notice its potential and give it to ITZY, who then got lots of popularity partially because of that concept if you know what i mean
@@marymin808 Weki Meki were absolutely very popular in Korea after releasing Picky Picky, lots of people knew the song and other companies capitalized on the popularity by using the same concept and ITZY just so happened to outgrow Weki Meki
I agree, with lots of kpop groups debuting left and right, a very specific/niche concept is what they need to stand out.
Twice had the advantage of starting from cute concept to mature. Which is perceived as growth but Itzy began with hard-core rebel but suddenly went to cute concept. Which is unfortunately seen as downgrade.
But I think the issue is them too quickly and suddenly changing the direction of their concept especially the sound.
it’s started with a teen crush concept they just changed too quickly into their careers
I don't think Itzy has a cute image or concept recently, Sneakers was very cute but Cheshire and even Cake a little have very adult themes and concepts and before that Itzy did a lot of Teencrush, the only "hard-core" rebel concept I could think about is mafia in the morning, other than that they're usually too campy to really associate with rebellion
its also that people WANTED twice to evolve, it was really exciting to see them grow up along with their music. with itzy though, no one really asked for this massive switch up. they should've done it later on in their careers.
@@aster9051 exactly
Itzy has just bad quality music. If a group is popular whatever concept they'll do will go well as long as the music is good. Itzy has problems with production and vocal rearranging.
I feel like Stray Kids being so self-produced had been the greatest benefit to them having a sold sound and identity.
They produced and write the majority of their music without input from JYPE so they can do what they like and that makes it so that they can make consistent music.
P.S. them being so self produced was a double edged sword because there was almost no help from the company to promote them at the beginning. Only once they “proved” themselves did they get more support from the company. And now they’ve grown to have a solid identity and fan base.
I feel like "proving yourself" is something that jype does idk
I disagree about Twice, I feel like they're the only current JYP girl group that has stayed consistent with their identity, their identity evolved with Fancy and the more adult concepts, but their core has stayed the same. And they still have a huge audience that's just getting bigger, they are the first kpop group besides bts to have been able to perform in SOFI stadium in the US this year when just a few years ago that would've been impossible for them. I do agree their identity evolution changed their core audience from being primarily men who love cute gg concepts to being a more even mix of male and female fans, but I think the size of their fanbase has grown, especially internationally.
Their international fanbase has grown due to the type of music they release now. Their identity is not the same
How can you go from Taste of Love to ... 2013 American Music...
@@maxwell6445but that’s ur opinion 😭😭
As a once, almost everything after Feel Special has been retro or vintage that I'm thinking that the identity of TWICE is literally retro and everything retro. M&M had hippie vibes, retro. ICSM, the definition of retro. Kura Kura with that disco. Alcohol-Free was Bossa Nova. The Feels, disco pop. Doughnut is literally retro JP ballad music. TTT was Y2k. And now Set Me Free, another disco song with retro-futuristic vibes.
I think their concept and identity is anything under the scope of "Retro and Vintage". I have a feeling this was due to the massive success of FANCY.
Quality of music has nothing to do with selling out stadiums. What are you even on
I think the reason why stray kids is a jyp group that the identity didn't change and probably never will, is because they're self produced.
As an ahgase, everything you said about GOT7 was so valid. They’re a group that had all the potential to be bigger, but were snuffed by their company. I still remember how upset I was at their “Breath of Love” promotions being one week long in comparison to other groups that promoted for weeks or months. Great video!
exo had barely any promotions after 2017 with their latest comeback getting no more than one week but they are still relevant
@@kyooongie genuine question but what is the point of this comment? OP was talking about got7’s situation, not exo
I know this is about SM and JYP but I also agree that iKON, EXO and Got7 all could've all been much bigger and reached a higher level in the west. But overall the company that promoted their group the best was Bighit and that's why BTS is the biggest group and the reason why HYBE has surpassed the Big 3 overall.
exo is not as relevant as they once were. consequence of an sm fumble @@kyooongie
I also like how you acknowledged all the people behind the scenes making sure the group has an identity. I feel like people don’t realize the people affected by poor management are the other employees too
Sm is the only company that has groups that actually have longevity concepts and sounds. They might switch it up every once and a while but all in all they will always have that feel that’s they always had since the beginning
NMIXX is easily the group JYP could most easily capitalize on given their strong identity with good vocals and choreo, like early ITZY but weirder, sure their first two releases were a mess even as someone who adores DICE, but they had an audience, the attention, and the distinct nature. Even with LMLT, while they dropped the mixxpop, it showcased the group's chaotic musical nature in a slightly more relaxed track that a lot of people liked. Party o'clock and Roller coaster got similarly good reception from what I can tell, and I'm going to NEED jyp to stick the landing with this group because thats just too much talent going to waste otherwise.
i really don’t think there’s a distinct chaotic nature to party o clock or lmlt. i love nmixx and also hope jyp let’s fhem excel because they’re insanely talented. but i think the identity built with o.o and dice, while not very well received it was an identity, and it’s been dropped. i think the music remains being good, but their situation is already looking rocky. party o’clock didn’t chart well and most people preferred rollercoaster, but they’re both pretty generic. so any identity of weird, chaotic mixxpop is pretty much out the window unless jyp suddenly decides to return to that style (which was never very liked by kpop community)
I hard disagree on this one. There's nothing chaotic or different in Lmlt and Party O'clock/Roallercoaster. They went from having a strong identity with O.O and Dice, to becoming just like any other generic girl group. Such a pity honestly. Dice was amazing. Also, While Lmlt charted really well in SK, Party O'clock/Roallercoaster did not chart at all. Sigh.
What I find funny about Stray Kids is that they don’t even feel like “stray kids” anymore. How do I explain this? I think their earlier works really presented this idea of a bunch of kids that didn’t really have a home and were strays. They were looking for some meaning/purpose. “Levanter” era was the transition era where they felt like they had found where they belonged. And from “God’s Menu” to present day, they’ve had a sense of self. They’re like a group of heroes, armed with their music, fighting to protect the home they’ve found. I just find it cool/bizarre how they set out to have one identity but found something almost completely opposite that works so much better for them.
ikr i also personally rlly like the diversity in their discography even tho most of their title tracks are noisy ( in a good way i love their titles ) theyre discography in general has so many different types of songs and it always works for them it also just feels like their own
@@prettylife6086My issue with their discography is that the diversity hasn’t felt consistent to me. I want it to not just be delegated to sub-units, solos, and B-sides. “Back Door” and even “Case 143” are great examples in my opinion of when their post-Levanter title tracks can be diversified! But “God’s Menu”, “Thunderous”, “Maniac”, “S-Class”, etc are too similar and don’t do any justice to the group and what they’re capable of. Heck, give us a title track like “Get Cool” again lol
@@Nameless_mixes Get Cool is such a great song and its concept is kind of refreshing(?) in my opinion.
I think one of the big parts of this is that they produce their own music, and were somewhat able to decide their own concepts for themselves, and they chose talking about their own issues navigating through life and adulthood. So essentially, the identity of the group Stray Kids is literally based on the members' experiences and journey through life, which doesnt make it jarring even if they "change" concepts, because the core of their identity as a groups remains the same, which is their own members' identity.
For most other groups, the "identity" is given by the company (itzy self confidence identity or aespas futuristic ae identity). Sm just does a better job at being consistent with maintaining their identity, but if they acted like jype and decided changing their groups' whole shebang midway they'd have the exact same result as what those jype groups are going through (meaning their "downfall").
@@Nameless_mixes what do you mean too similar? Thunderous and 5 star have a COMPLETELY different vibe. One is traditional and the other is a hard hip hop influenced song. The only thing in common is the power in them which is what skz is known for right now
The thing about ITZY is that JYP did not understand who the fans were. Dalla Dalla+ICY were considered appealing because they were unabashedly fun. JYP equated that with being kid-friendly and childlike. Which is why we now have Sneakers and Cake.
no cause for me as a stay regardless of what anyone else says about their music one of the main things that attracts me to skz's craft is their identity. even when they deliver it in unexpected ways, they deliver stuff that sounds just so incredibly skz that I can't get my fix anywhere else which is why they're one of my ults!
ME TOO. I like the loud vibe which is sometimes contrasted by the bsides. I love the fact that they can establish their ideas freely
Maybe this is the reason why so many ppl ult RV, even is the music isn't their cup of tea, no one can deny that Red Velvet pull their concepts so great, is because their strong identity
There are so many times where I feel like Itzy and NMIXX’s discographies went to the wrong group. I think NMIXX would’ve done amazing with “Not Shy” and “Cake” whereas “Love Me Like This” could’ve been awesome for Itzy! Not to mention how I think JYPE should’ve taken the upbeat and lighthearted section of “O.O”, given it to Itzy and left the more intense part for NMIXX. JYPE is a company with so many ideas and zero sense of direction. They know where they want to go. They just don’t know how to get there.
i dont think itzys vocals are strong enough to pull off love me like this lol
@@miikapm2There would definitely need to be adjustments to the vocal arrangements (like nobody on Itzy can handle the adlibs and runs that NMIXX can do). But the song has a well composed, laid-back vibe and has that messaging of (self) love, which is Itzy’s signature. Definitely would’ve been a better choice in my opinion than “Cake”.
Where they want to go is where SM and HYBE were 6 - 12 months ago.
@@sana-cm7oc More like where HYBE is now and where SM was back in 2021
@@Chrono_topher I agree. They are trying to copy the recent past.
I actually believe that ITZY is a rare case of a group that can pull of any concept while still feeling very much like themselves
Actually though, being loud and confident IS their concept and something they’ve always had, even in Cheshire imo
Something about SM groups is that they still kept the same concepts, but they make it better and they continue to make music to make everyone enjoy. But, JYP groups are also good with their dancing skills and they also have multiple concepts and strong stage presence with the choreography. But I think they both are strong at a vocals.
Yes some of the idols aren’t strong with their vocals, but again, they are powerful when it comes to their singing.
SM is yhe blueprint and the founder of kpop , their groups are top notch and their concepts are a chef's kiss , the only company that produces real music .
@@benedettaaaaa_ they truly are the founders , groups wouldn't be anything without the company, this company is indeed a musical genius , slaying since the 90's releasing bops and national anthems.
I agree only saying only company releasing real music is the dumbest thing I have heard most nct songs are EARBLEADING!!! and your biased
@@benedettaaaaa_huh lee soo man literally invented kpop. The industry wouldn’t exist without him
@@DA_Aldpersonal opinion.
I find most ateez songs ear bleeding, while I love NCT
@@benedettaaaaa_like you said seo taiji and boys isn’t exactly kpop. They’re not kpop. Kpop didn’t exist until H.O.T. They are considered the first kpop group. I haven’t seen anyone say seo taiji and boys was. They were just what was popular in Korea before kpop existed.
You know it was *that bad* when aghases cheered and celebrated when GOT7 left JYP
They literally had Armys, Blinks, Carats and fucking everyone congratulating them for finally being free
it's specifically a&r (artists and repertoire) which SM has down to a science and employs the best. reacttothek has interviewed some SM a&r which really goes into all that behind the scenes work.
the group vs. group analysis is awesome and detailed. i especially appreciate how you put all of these cases in context.
Whats the video called?
@@sabiaakthar1613 ruclips.net/video/T97pOOU3vdA/видео.htmlsi=2HPPClpad5zsrySK this is their interview with michelle cho who did a&r for SM
the saddest thing of ITZY is that they are in the same label as got7 used to be
*division2, they just got jackpot when itzy debuted, but they cant maintain that and after some years their incompatibility showed
me who coincidently started stanning all jyp groups 👁️👄👁️
You have a bad taste of music
@@ndj9576 me when I lie
@@ndj9576music is subjective, you can’t just tell someone they have bad taste in music just cause you don’t like it, straight up sounds like a narcissist to me
I love JYP groups.. you'll never go wrong
@@ndj9576oh pls shut up
Despite red velvet being incredible, sm fumbled them so hard. They could be even SO MUCH BIGGER if sm gave a flying f about them. And now they might disband next year. ugh. kpop will not be the same without them
sm never disbands a group though? 😭😭😭 correct me if im wrong
@@iveluvz ig you're right cuz girls generation just released an album last year TT even exo...BUT SM SUCKS AT PROMOTING they only promoted DRAMA really well and look at the succes
you explained rv's velvet side sooo well 😭 personally i mostly like artistic music and rnb/ballads so unfortunately i don't like their red side as much, but their velvet side is exactly my style and i love it. i can even say that rv has the best gg discography even tho i kinda only listen to the velvet songs. their next comeback better be velvet i stg.
their comeback will be on november so there’s a chance that it will be a velvet concept
Sm literally has quality compared to any others .from skill to music production everything is 1000x better in terms of quality .
SM has a clear concept and solid production, but JYPE is just a bit...all over the place. something about JYPE groups just doesn't catch my eye or have the hold on me that other groups do.
I honestly think JY Park tries to be executive producer over every JYPE group, but it is too much for any 1 person. He does not know how to delegate - is a bad manager.
Sm has an estbalished identity, I didn't find myself struggling with connecting the dots, although people say they're now connecting to aespa's lore but nct as a whole and their concept? I can follow that as well as aespa's. Even their musical identity, its still there. From 1st generation to 5th (riize is kind of like H.O.T)
And each generation has a distinct vibe as well.
They always debut an S.E.S., H.O.T., and since 2nd gen, a Morning Musumeish group.
S.E.S. - The Grace - F(x) - Red Velvet - AESPA
H.O.T. - S - Shinhwa - Blackbeat - TVXQ - SHINee - NCT Dream - WAYV - RIIZE
Super Junior - Girls' Generation - EXO - NCT 127 - SUPERM - Girls On Top
I've followed SM during almost 2 decades now, It's always another iteration of SM OG
hello.
here to say
stan billlie
and thank you winterosy
Stan billlie indeed‼️
what i'm excited for is aespa's future. i think my world was a nice transition from kwangya to real world. and as smcu crumbles i am so curious to see what's ahead... so far im counting on better things and hold on tight as the musical direction cos we knew they gonna nail the r&b side as an sm group. really really excited for the full length album
SM has tons of issues but the one thing you can't blame them for is being lazy with their music. Their idols are so well-trained, songs are vocally challenging, music is experimental and concepts are new and interesting. I admire that they are willing to be trendsetters at the cost of popular appeal.
Twice's biggest game is concept. They don't stay with one concept. They show versatility and imo that's more important than just sticking to one thing. Otherwise whatever happened to blackpink would happen to twice that they're being hated for years for putting out the exact same concept from day one. They never step out of girl crush and are rightfully hated for it
I'm sorry but this feels like a dig at blackpink '' They never step out of girl crush and are rightfully hated for it'' It kind of feels like your saying that blackpink members DESERVE the hate they get when and if they did progress to a different sound then people would have made snarky remarks like they make to twice nowadays ( I'm not saying that they deserve rude remarks) such as ''They don't feel the same or Their sound is boring''. If you don't think that these remarks should be made for Twice then how can you say that Blackpink are rightfully hated and are deserving of the rude comments made about them. If you don't think such comments should be made about one group for doing something then don't be a hypocrite and go around claiming that another group deserves the hate for doing the opposite. None of these groups deserve hate and there was no reason to bring Blackpink into this.
Similarities between Twice and SNSD, aka Girls’Generation:
1) SNSD’s Kissing You / Twice’s lightstick -> both are lollipops
2) SNSD’s TaeTiSeo / Twice’s MiSaMo -> both are trio subunit, both groups’ names are the combination of members’ name.
2) SNSD’s Oh / Twice ‘s Cheer up -> cheerleading
3) SNSD’s Gee / Twice’s TT -> similar sounding to their group’s name (G=Girls’ Generation, T=Twice)
4) SNSD’s Gee / Twice’s What is love -> white top + blue jeans
5) SNSD’s Say Yes / Twice’s Yes or Yes -> opening of the both songs sound almost identical.
6) SNSD’s Oh and Run Devil Run / Twice’s I can’t stop me -> each member have their own doppelgänger.
7) SNSD’s Party / Twice’s Alcohol-Free -> similar concepts! Both filmed as having party at the beach, both songs have a part that mentions different types of drinks in the lyrics.
8) SNSD’s Lion Heart / Twice’s Signal -> both fall in love with an inhuman creature.
9) Tiffany’s Just wanna dance / Twice’s Dance the night away -> similar lyrics and both have the phrase “dance the night away”
10) Taeyeon’s Spark / Twice’s One Spark
11) and many more.
Although JYP previously stated that he would like to create another group like SNSD, Twice has been copying SNSD's concepts extensively since the beginning without giving any credit. Since SNSD gained significant popularity from these concepts, the same goes for Twice.
@@sonexcarat99 im sorry if im wrong but since when has snsd been doing cutesy
@@sonexcarat99 these are such stupid ways to say they copied them. Twice have doppelgangers in other mv's too like heartshaker. Like its something thats used so often. And alcohol free is a summer concept it has a beach party always. Please these are such stupid allegations
@@ABROAD91 by rightfully hated i mean theyre rightfully boxed in the one trick pony catagorie. Yg rarely gives em anything but girlcrush and they dont like anything but girlcrush. Theyre known for girlcrush and for the fact that they do nothing but girlcrush. This is not a dig at the members just at the fact that thry never step outta their comfort zones and explore more genres. I mean they did as if its your last and that was such a bop bcuz it was refreshing from their usual thing. Stay is usually overlooked since gloomy songs dont do great on charts otherwise its a good song.
Sm groups are such guaranteed quality groups, so I always end up leaning towards them. If you ask me to show you what kpop really is, sm music is what I'll show you. Kpop is supposed to be unique and jaw dropping, not just another Hollywood music in a different language. I think SM lasted that long cuz they have good foundation on every aspect of making idols and music. youll see me listening a lot from other company idols but i never always end up sticking to them for a long period of time. Been a longest fan of EXO and music/discography (just overall) wise no one has beaten them yet (at least for me). You're right they're very consistent, sm knows what to do with their idols so its rare to see an sm group fall off.
that itzy to aespa transition is crazy pls
as a die heart once and reveluv, literally stan winterosy because although imo set me free and feel my rhythm ate the groups kinda died down because of relevance and sm and jyp is refusal to lose their main money makers during third generation, with 5th generation starting soon I would think both companies are gonna fuck up both groups identities since both companies wanna have their group have relevant identities as newer groups and the same thing would happen with earlier 4th generation groups when 5th generation starts.
I’m not really sure about red velvet since they’ve been in the industry for 9 years yet they’re still the red velvet everyone knows and loves
part two should be
Wonder Girls vs SNSD
Miss A vs F(x)
Stray Kids vs NCT
I'll try to give unbiased opinions on this case (since I stan some of the groups I mentioned here), and also mention other groups that weren't in this video to amplify and fill my statements.
TWICE - They matured their concept at the right time and they did well, not only for the group, but also as individuals. They aged like fine wine. TWICE's main identity has always been the cute concept, they didn't not have a specific "aesthetic", but when the word "cute" is mentioned, TWICE must be there as well. They cultivated their image for years, and were extremely consistent in it, even when some people got tired of it, they kept going with it and attracted more people. FANCY era was obviously the start of them finally telling the public they were growing out of the cute concept they were known for. The aesthetics might have changed and became more mature, however their sound didn't. I feel like some people seem to forget that TWICE's bubblegum pop sound contributed a lot to their identity. Even with "darker" concepts, TWICE were still able to make their bubblegum pop sound in their rookie era, and were still able to maintain it when they started to mature their image too. Their most recent songs still have some touches of bubblegum pop (I'd recommend checking their bsides too). Because of TWICE (and some other groups like BTS, etc) I noticed that many fans are not ready to see their faves grow out of an image/sound and pursue a new one that perfectly adapts to their current selves. Groups whose image is a cute one, are bound to grow out of it when they grow up, whether people like it or not. GFRIEND also matured up their image, and just like TWICE, people were not really happy about the fact they "abandoned" what made them famous, but if you look closely, both of the groups NEVER did. They both still kept their sounds while they spiced up their images. TWICE has built up a very strong and loyal fandom, and as far as they keep making songs ONCEs will love and appreciate, they are fine. Also, as they keep growing as individuals, TWICE seems to have more in-put in what to put out nowadays, and them not being solid in charts, won't change anything. They are still one of the top and relevant groups out there. Their current identity is them exploring their adulthood while having fun by taking a look back at their rookie days.
ITZY - In contrast with TWICE, ITZY matured their image way too early. Like, people are forgetting they are just one year older than aespa. Five talented individuals started with what would settle them as the promising leaders of the newer generation, DALLA DALLA, then proceeded to release a song that magically grew on people despite the initial responses, ICY. They had a massive positive response with the release of WANNABE that literally made them attract a lot of fans, while the style of the music video was different, it was still very itzy-esque thanks to the SOUND, amazing instruments executed fantastically together. Then went back to claim their summer queens title with NOT SHY. Here, people started to complain about them sounding the same: loud and complex instrumental like their previous tracks. GUESS what happened after it? MITM, which received very different and mixed opinions, but still had the ability to make people look forward to performances. You might be like "well, everything is going well so far", but when you realize ITZY was just a barely two year old group, you will see where JYPe made a mistake. MITM is a song they should be releasing now, not on their second year of career. ITZY needed more time to cultivate their image/sound, and not jump on another one way too early. Tracks like LOCO, Sneakers and CAKE, should have been released after NOT SHY. MTIM and CHESHIRE would have hit bigger if they got released this year, which is their fourth year. All of the members are now young adults and by releasing those now, it could have been the start of a new wave for them. ITZY has built up their identity around being the "self love" group, so seeing tracks like MITM and CHESHIRE after Sneakers, with CAKE after it, makes me wish they continued in their self love theme before jumping into another one a bit early. You might mention LOCO not being a self-love song, but if you look closely to the lyrics, it actually is tho. Just like TWICE, ITZY's main identity has always been mainly found in the sound and their message, not really the aesthetic. ITZY are still on track, JYPe just needs to push the correct songs and promote them well, like why promote tracks like "None Of My Business", when Psychic Lover and Killshot are there? I have faith in ITZY, JYPe just needs to push the right tracks for them.
NMIXX - JYPe gave up too quickly on their MIXXPOP genre: they were obviously one of the most anticipated 2022 girl groups and while their debut was not really appreciated on a large scale, they were still able to attract people that would look forward to the "new" wave that the company was trying to push, although we have heard this "concept"/"genre" from another company, which in this case is SMe. They gave no chance for NMIXX to grow and explore the genre by listening to the public, but I can't blame them for that: usually when groups' concepts and sounds are not well received by general public, companies tend to look at the international one and see whether the opinion is the same or different and in this case, during O.O era, both reacted negatively on a general scale. Which makes me feel that JYPe had no option and decided to dive into other concepts, by making the group go for a trendier route. However, due to the lack of creative direction, their image is very confusing. JYPe had a vision and couldn't execute it well. "O.O" should have been the beginning of them exploring mixxpop, but stopped right after it. No, DICE, LMLT, and POC are NOT mixxpop. MIXXPOP is putting two or more music genres together by making evident when one starts and one ends: "O.O" starts with a trap intro, proceeds with "baile funk", after the "NMIXX~" teen pop combined with pop rock dominates the middle part of the chorus until the last part of the song which concludes with baile funk again. THAT'S MIXXPOP. This whole concept would have been amazing if JYPe was consistent in it and tried to "adjust" in a friendly way, while keeping its roots, if they really wanted to steal the hearts of the listeners. NMIXX is one of the most talented groups out there: vocals, rap, dance, stage presence, personality; they lack nothing. NMIXX, just like ITZY, is not a group JYPe should be making experiments on frankly speaking. Their vocals are too good to be wasted on songs that don't really showcase them. While I love listening to their songs, I also listened to their covers, and let me tell y'all, JYPe literally has gold in its hands. While I wish they still kept pursuing this genre, I can see they are happier now, knowing they mentioned how their confidence lowered during the O.O era. NMIXX doesn't necessarily need a concept, but an fixed identity, something people will know them for apart from their vocals and overall performance. IVE doesn't have a specific concept, but elegance and self love are their core identity. (G)I-DLE doesn't have a specific concept too, but made self love, self acceptance and confidence are their core identity (they actually have more things they are known for tho). IZ*ONE didn't really have a specific concept too, but you seriously couldn't mention elegance without mentioning them back when they were active. Their identity was mainly found in their loud sparkly, crystal-like, flowery sound (and their outfits too tho). In NMIXX case, things are kinda all over the place; they don't have an actual sound (which is fine since it can take time to build one), they don't have a specific message they are conveying as part of their identity (yeah, I know they have a lore, but people outside of the NSWER fandom don't know that). As a whole, JYPe seems to not know what to do with NMIXX' concept at the moment. If they really wanted them to have a lore, a creative director is a must. What I'm very sure of is that they will keep experimenting until they find their own identity, which is also great as well, but seeing them like this is an era where stans tend to give up on girl groups the moment they don't "deliver" makes me kinda worried for them, especially knowing the amount of insults they have received to so far, however, I'm truly glad, as a fan, that the fandom is loyal and willing to wait for them. I pray for them to have a successful comeback next year. This may be off topic, but Roller Coaster should have been pushed as a title track instead of Party O'Clock; RC was way more well received both in KR and internationally.
Roller Coaster is absolutely the track they shoulda pushed
Totally agree
The only thing Twice is not doing as well in then before is Korean charts. THIS year, their 8th year, they have the highest sales from their latest album., 1.7 million. They have the highest sales in the US of any girl group. Last year they were the most streamed girl group on spotify. They are literally doing so much better in all aspects other than korean charts, because koreans love to jump on the new popular and young trend. Let's also not forget Twice has sold out stadiums all around the world this year totaling 1.3 million tickets sold and still counting. Their last tour was not even half of that. Twice is getting bigger and more popular worldwide. This video is invalid.
Lack of identity is Cubes major problem. BTOB is a top ballad group, GIDLE being a bag ass girl crush group is something the group itself built for themselves not something Cube made for them that's why they're successful. But most cube groups do not have popularity (to me) because they lack identity - like Pentagon, clc and lightsum. Which is so unfortunate because the groups are so talented. 😊
In this lesson we have learned sm>jyp when it comes to musical identity. However sm is currently failing with riize but it remains to be seen
Spot on. Top level editing and content. Thank you for using Thirsty!!! I love that song! JYPE has good groups and terrible producers. JYPE are followers, not innovators. I think JYP tries to be the executive producer of every group but it is too much for any one person. JYP does not know how to delegate.
Honestly, The fall off / changes for so many of these groups is a reason I stopped keeping up. Change and versatility is amazing, But if the change is sudden and very drastic, its not good.
Comparing the groups, I just feel like SM always gets it down pact quickly, whether it be at debut or within a year or two after debut, such as groups like Red Velvet, it took them a little, but after Ice Cream Cake, they really found a sound that blew them up, and would continue to be branched out through releases such as The Red, Rookie, Russian Roulette, and of course flowing to the other side with The Perfect Velvet, and the whole Reve Festival series. While the group has done some sort of basic concepts, Red Velvet’s identity fully has been set and stone since debut, and they’ve continued to expand on such a concept and identity that makes the group so unique. SM has been doing such a powerful move for years, from Girls Generation to Red Velvet to aespa and whoever may be next. Even going into their boy groups, while unique and different, NCT is one that has continued a core identity despite the different sound that was being put on by groups around the time of NCT’s unit debuts throughout the years. JYP just seems to struggle a lot finding that identity for his groups, and either it’s set in stone at debut, and changes later, or it takes years for the group to find that style. Usually JYP groups do go through them finding their style at debut, but then slowly began to change, even while keeping the sound. Twice is the best example, from the cute sound to songs that still had that Twice feel despite the difference in releases with releases such as Fancy and Feel Special. One of their groups that didn’t really have a style at debut, but found it later was Stray Kids. Their discography seemed unique but messy, with Stray Kids trying a lot of new sounds to test it out, but then the solidified their sound following God’s Menu, slowly forming up the basis to the concept we know today that has been shown through releases like Thunderous, Maniac, Case 143, and S-Class, where Stray Kids have developed, grown and explored to be unique while remaining to their sound.
I think the overall video is solid, but i personally think that the Twice vs Red Velvet section is the worst one and the one where subjectivity is the only leading parameter imho. If we are being honest, there isn't a real way to say that Twice hasn't a set vision anymore while Red Velvet still has it, considering that nowadays Red Velvet has almost completely abandoned their dual concept... Red Velvet haven't been doing "red" and "velvet" concepts since coming back from their hiatus, and this is particularly evident with both Queendom and Feel My Rhythm (and started already with Umpah Umpah, which I like, but it probably was the beginning of this). They are doing a safest mix of the two concepts, which isn't bad at all, but I think we should be honest with it because it definitely isn't how they started 😂 Red Velvet absolutely abandoned their initial direction: they toned down what could be considered a "red" concept while at the same time not going into a real "velvet" concept during any of the korean comebacks since the hiatus.
In that sense, Birthday was a semi-return to that more drastic vision.
With that being said, such senior groups already have an identity per se even "just" by their visuals and vocals, which is why Red Velvet could release Queendom and we all still were happy to recognise Red Velvet in such a comeback despite it not being... well, nothing like Red Velvet original direction. At the end of the day, unless they do something completely incoherent, we will always find a way to "connect the pieces" of any Red Velvet piece of their string of comebacks.
About Twice, I haven't much to say: to me they seem one of the most easily recognisable and coherent groups in their overall journey, with a commendable ability to branch out from the initial "colorpop" direction without never losing it completely. I mean, Talk That Talk has a lot in common with a song like What Is Love, they keep being extremely coherent. It's also interesting how they basically incorporated retro as one of their main concepts since 2020 at the point that it is one of the things they can consider as characteristics - alongside the general brightness and poppy vibe. Overall, they just have a very solid identity so I i think I strongly disagree here.
completely agree. the video is purely subjective
Well, if we're going that route, then RV dropped the dual sided thing since Russian Roulette, which makes sense. I've always seen the Red and Velvet side not as binary, but like a scale. Some comebacks lean more towards the Red side, and vice versa. Their timeline makes a lot more sense like this.
@@Luna-rl5wu I get this but at the same time I think that, if you make it a scale, it basically isn't a dual concept anymore. Not more than (example) Itzy substantially going from total fun/camp (Icy/Sneakers/Cake as extremes) to the opposite dark (MITM, Kill Shot) while also having things in between in a "scale" (Wannabe more fun, Loco more dark)... and we know that Itzy is considered (in my opinion, way too much, but I also get and agree with the overall complaint) as "bouncing " from concept to concept without a fixed trajectory (at least after the first big change with MITM).
I still see a lot of bias and will to "justify a concept" if we consider Red Velvet dual concept as a scale while also criticizing Itzy or even saying that Twice is bouncing from concept to concept. I mean, sure, for Red Velvet it factually became a scale (as 90% of groups which move on a scale between 2 favourites extremes), but it's because they abandoned their original direction. Not because SM stayed loyal to a peculiar original direction.
I want to stress that I have exactly 0 problems with this. I just think that "coddling" these changes with SM groups is due to confirmation bias: you already decided that SM groups have a solid identity so you try to bend the factual changes that happened when they aren't aligned with it, while at the same time enlightening as a problem when other groups do the exact same. (I think most groups move on a scale btw, so it isn't a penalty for RV)
(You= generic you. Not you OP)
what do you mean red velvet hasn’t done any velvet concept when they released wildside last year
@@vivianlight- no, but I actually agree with you. It is sort of bias to criticise Twice on this regard but give it a pass with Red Velvet, mostly due to them being seen as being flexible in their essence. They always have been since the beginning, but Twice not as much. But I still agree with your point.
I honestly PREFER their sides to be a scale because it allows for more subjectivity and interpretation. Certain releases may be seen as pure Velvet for some, but Red Velvet by others. This type of discourse is why they're my favorite group.
LOOSSEMBLE SENSITIVE OUT NOW!!!
JINI DEBUT AND PRE RELEASE 10.04 AND 10.11!!!
CHUU REDEBUTNATION 10.18!!
‼️‼️
Vivi main vocal era ‼️‼️
are you guys still streaming LOONA mv's? I only stream their songs on gallery after they left BBC
@@ryanlee3514 we aren’t streaming anything officially loona, bbc still gets money from it which they’re using to sue the members
Is THIS why I'm such SM trash??? 🤔😂
You hit the nail on the head, I think SM is the absolute best at building into their group concepts the expectation for change and experimentation. That you never really know what they're going to come back with, but you know it'll be something totally new yet somehow totally them, and typically something that no other group could pull off. Also, while obviously the title tracks may show the strongest part of their various groups identity, they never shy away from having true versatility in their b-sides... which is always my personal bar for stanning a group.
there was a video, i believe it was by mera (idk if you ever watched her videos) but it was how twice had grown up with their concept, like they did with their audience, so the cute -> mature change was more of an evolution rather than an actual change. also i agree jyp did completely screw itzy over. i got into kpop in 2019 and always viewed itzy as this chic group, and loved their concept, and i think sneakers may have ruined them. great video as always :)
Sorry but this just screams favoritism to me. And listen, I don't think that this video is completely invalid. It raises excellent points about how entertainment companies put a lot or little thought into their groups and how wisely chosen concepts at the beginning can serve a group in a long run. But for a comparison video that is supposed to objectively evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of the groups presented it falls short of the impartiality and just goes to show which group you as a listener have developed a deeper emotional connection with. I'm gonna focus on the Twice vs. Red Velvet discourse here because these are the primary groups I listen to and whom I love with all my heart. But some of the arguments bashing Twice in this video are just ridiculous. First of all is the so called Twice downfall. The "people are just not as excited for Twice music anymore" might as well be replaced with "I don't care for their newer stuff anymore" because I have seen so many people praising set me free, talk that talk, cry for me, i can't stop me. Ttt and scientist were trending on tiktok, more and more was one of the most successful songs in korea in 2020, ready to be entered the top five of bb 200 and stayed there for an unmatched period of time for ggs. So you mean to tell me we will just ignore all of that and say twice fell flat? And we're just going to collectively have amnesia about how people were saying that rv fell off with releases such as birthday queendom and rbb?? Heck, some even went as far as to criticise feel my rhythm although it's undeniably a masterpiece. And why did all that happen? Because music is subjective, a simple truth that you somehow just dont get. Saying that groups like ive billlie and newjeans have more interesting releases, but somehow applying it to only one of the two? Who exactly did you ask for that, except yourself? Would the kpop community collectively place the get up album over ready to be? Over birthday? No! Of course the groups with more popularity will sway more audience but let's stop deluding ourselves into thinking that talent and music is all that matters in getting a song or group to hit. If that was the case, super shy would have been buried under the success of eta or cool with you. But no, super shy was just marketed like crazy, which is the same with rv and twice. No they dont snag as many music show wins anymore, but that doesnt mean one or another group's quality fell off. And are we really gonna crucify twice for leaving their bright and bubbly sound? Really? Nayeon is in her late 20s, heck even Tzuyu that was 16 upon debut is now an adult. If they stay in the same genre they're boring and immature and should just grow up, if they branch out, they're losing their identity and sound and fans are bound to be disappointed. It is impossible for them to win. I concede that jyp played a vital role in giving them an identity and direction that wouldnt be able to last for 5 and 10 years, because their message in their literal group name is "touch fans hearts twice, through ears and eyes". From the very beginning they were forced to look and sound pretty. That's it. But their hard work, their progress, their dedication to their art helped them create memorable works lyrically and sonically. Jihyo writing about her battle with insomnia and mental health issues, Dahyun writing IN TWO LANGUAGES about female empowerment and basically about how they were cheated out of a childhood to become trainees, Chaeyoung writing about accepting your insecurities and so many more. A surface analysis like this only discredits the immense work they put in for the sake of music. While Red Velvet was always positioned as diverse artists with the ability to tackle different concepts, Twice had to pave their own way to leave the sound that was shackling them, and we will bash them for it? No sir. It's so easy to judge a group you have no connection to, it's easy to overlook and ignore the hard work they're putting by just saying they fell off cuz their music isnt up to your tastes anymore. But at the end of the day, that simply isn't the truth. If you compare the group's progress against themselves, not the other groups, you will see how Twice went from a bubbly pop group with optimistic dance anthems to full fledged women with exceptional songwriting and messages to convey to the world. Red Velvet did need to break the mold to continue existing and staying true to their sound, Twice just doesnt have the same privilege. Again, I fully agree that jype fumbled their identity from the very beginning, but this video gave a rather shallow and a hypocritical analysis on their art.
Correction: red velvet didn't need to breal the mold* sorry if that didnt make sense in the original comment
THANK YOU
I agree with you, when ppl talk about twice's "downfall" because they are not as "Hyped" as new gg (aespa, ive, lesserafim, newjeans), it's stupid, i mean beside of G-idle, no other "old" gg can match them. But TWICE are doing a successful world tour so that's good and fans still liked their latest releases. for me, the "identity" point from the video doesn't hurt them because they are still releasing good music, which is not the case for itzy.
And about the comparison with RV, I do think they are bigger than RV and no matter what, Twice will stay (in my opinion) the second greatest gg of all time (not talking about music, just greatness).
Clock the tea 👏
@@mathieuteushi999 second these points and also I feel that once groups have reached a certain point in popularity and age, the same marketing/amount of content etc also doesn't need to be as pushed as say, younger groups, because they don't need the same 'hype' to still be successful. also I feel that as groups get older their fanbase is also getting older and that also reflects in how companies will market them eg. more concerts as fans can afford these as adults etc.
something you surprisingly didn't mention is that jype focus on fanservice, that's why the art they make will never be top 1 quality because they don't see it as art to begin with, the music is an excuse to make videos of pretty girls to attract lonely men (i am a 19yo female once but i know the fandom). sm know focus on art, concepts, identity, lore etc, and it pays off
i think someone in jype noticed that relying on these fans would never work long-term in the music industry because if we look at the groups:
twice: mid/good vocal skills, mid/good dance skills
itzy: mid vocal skills but dance!!!
nmixx: they're realllyy talented in singing AND dancing. + the music concept or identity whatever you wanna call it stayed consistent
i think for twice it's too late but i'm pretty sure someone realized that i started advocating for debuting actually talented girlgroups. lmao that's pronbably not how this works but it looks like a shift occured somewhere between these debuts
There is a reason why JYP has multiple groups that actually do well outside of Korea, It's called adaptability. SM has failed in that area badly.
Yet sm groups r the one that last the longest .release solo content .they r stable domestically and internationally
Failed? SNSD was the first group to tour outside of South Korea.
Sure, they’re not as big as some other groups in the US right now, but sm groups don’t need to be adaptable to the western market when they have such solid fan bases that they can survive in the industry for 18 years (suju).
@@QuestionableK-I don’t agree with the whole like SM can’t adapt, or have groups that do well internationally, expect superM and th US, but like pipe down nct Stan cuz that last comment about jyp groups not being able to last 14 years (cough twice, day6, 2pm renewed their contracts so they will last 14 years cough) was like so unnecessary and outta pocket, you are a toxic Kpop Stan, don’t deny what you are. Like you say your not an sm Stan, but this person said a sentence and you responded with a paragraph.
I still can’t wrap my head around how your arguing why SM is popular internationally then provide both mediocre evidence, and throw in a back hand comment before wrapping up the comment in a bow. Maybe just don’t debate anyone, ever.
Edit: hmm honestly reading it back mediocre evidence is an overstatement, 80% of y’a comment is not even useful.
@@QuestionableK-lmaooo Straykids has the most streamed album for a boygroup this year not only 4th gen and the seconde most stream boygroup and you say the stream don’t match they’re also the most liked mv in 24hour on RUclips and the seconde most viewed mv on RUclips and the longest charting on RUclips Korea for a 4th gen boygroup and you deny their success 😭😭😭also the most streamed on RUclips the only group with BTS and blackpink to spend 365day on Spotify global omggg theyre are flopping so bad 😢
I forgot to say the most steamed in youtube for a 4th gen and the 4th overall same with the stream after twice balckpink and bts
after getting into kpop in summer of 2021 (butter carried icl) there was a group which caught my attention at first. i decided to check out aespa's savage title track and was blown away by the production and uniqueness of it. i think all sm groups are just so strong music wise and everything group has their own thing going for them.
Not going to lie when I saw this video dropped, I thought I wasn't going to like what you have to say based on my personal preference between the two agencies. But as usual your points prevailed and I agree with what you pointed out. Very well explained and edited. I'll always appreciate your content and hope the best for you!
I wanna say thank you to sm's production team😭🙏
Your points are so well articulated in here. I think so it all narrows down as to why the fans started stanning a particular group, may it be music or concept. I stanned red velvet because of bad boy. And then i saw their great variety in concept. Their comebacks are gonna bring something new to the plate. That's what i expect and that's what i am used to. As for itzy, i expect them to send something that screams rebellious confidence. But in their newer songs, i am not seeing. I want the type of music that itzy has established from the get go. I want that rebellious youth. That's why i am not feeling it. It narrows down to identity crisis
I am so freaking in love with the way u montaging videos. They all give so powerful energy and I am also very satisfied
Bro! This analysis is excelent! Thank you so much for your hard work
BABE WAKE UP, A NEW WINTEROSY VIDEO JUST DROPPED
Okay but like as a JYP stan, fr Jyp management SUCKS. The only reason skz is so big right now and has such a strong identity is because they're basically self managed by the members 😂
I hate div1 so much, they barely promote them and even their performance at the vma gave them more exposure than what they got during 5 star era. It’s like they don’t even care about one of the most successful kpop groups for no reason and it makes me mad
@stephanie1026 no, both suck, div1 can’t promote at all while div2 just doesn’t know how to deal with promotions, kill my doubt is still being promoted as of right now😭
@stephanie1026 it is but they’re still not promoted enough
@stephanie1026 if you aren’t a stay it’s understandable if you think so, but trust me they’ve been mismanaged for years and they still are.
@stephanie1026 they really aren’t but whatever helps you sleep at night
While Spicy is by no means a bad comeback, the fact it's such a sharp change compared to their previous comebacks definitely has me a bit worried on what SM is planning for aespa concept wise. If they return to their previous concept they could risk losing fans made during Spicy, and if they don't they might lose fans that really liked the future concept they had.
I'm not a huge fan of aespa's sound and I know that I'm likely not the target listener, but I really don't want to see a group with such potential end up in the same situation we've already seen with more than one group already.
stop this video is a masterpiece THE TRANSITIONS AND EDITING AND MUSIC MASHUP HELLOOOO?
Identity is definitely a big factor in the success a group has. However, overall its the actual music that dictates everything. All it takes is one bop to change the narrative.
mt good lord the intro broke my ears
amazing video btw
ITZY is iconic. many new groups take things from itzy's older releases and use it. people criticize any new itzy release, only to appreciate it years later. ( mafia being the first thing that comes to my mind)
They are insane live, no current gg has their presence and power. They wikl always remain iconic, they had one of the biggest debuts ever and wannabe will always be legendary. One day haters will see the light.
I feel too thankful somebody is on ITZY's side. Seriously, i don't actually care what people talk they will always be the most iconic 4th gen girl group. I must say i am heartly dissapointed for few new comebacks because they aren't satisfactory enough...but i hope they get something they deserve fr.
Also many producers and songwriters want to work with sm artists because they knew that sm artists could make experimental songs turned listenable and also they knew that they could make them work.
AESPA IS SOOO GOOD PLSS 😭omg they are literally the only 4th gen group im impressed with. like i been waitinggg for a vocal group in this gen n we finally got one. sm needs to quit sabotaging them bc to me, they are the group that should be on top. and they improved so much since debut. cant wait fot their full album
omg wait wdym sm is sabotaging them??!😭
@@cezaricacumatrenco2037 they postponed their comebacks so many times, hasn't gave them a full album yet, and theres many opportunities they miss out on. despite all this they are still really successful its just they could be bigger. sm already has a history of sabotaging their own groups once they start to gain too much popularity
i think the only recent jyp group that has potential for a strong identity is xdinary heroes. they debuted with happy death day which is a song that i dont think the industry has seen before. they truly had established their sound AND concept in a really short time. their comebacks stuck with the punk rock sound but still branched out, making each title track and album really unique. imo the reason for their consistancy is the fact they make their own music. btw this isnt shade to anyone im just saying that bc they participate in songwriting and composing they can, as fans of these genres themselves, know what their audiance would love as well and it shows. also one aspect that can be seen as a pro or a con depending on how you look at it is that xh have no real competition in their branch. so it should tehnically be easy for them to carve a spot in the industy. add on to that their virtual reality concept, sound, lore, promotions and target audience i think they have a soild foundation to be huge one day. just hoping stuj doesnt fvck them over....
I like XH but the one thing that will be hard for them is rock music in general is a hard sell in Korea right now. But I love their music.
they are like day6 although i keep listening to thier releases koreans are low compared to thier international fans but at least they have thier identity
they're a band... i didn't understeand your point 😢
I'm super early wow, also interesting concept, I don't often see company battles. Excited to watch this!
your transitions are so damn pleasing to see and hear omg
I really love the editing you put into the video! It's so clean and professional. Thanks for your hard work
people love to complain about concept changes and how they don't have an identity, and then drag BLACKPINK for releasing edm songs 💀💀💀
Blackpink doesn’t have much of an identity outside of their formulaic songs either.
@@LaurenPebbleand yet millions of people eat that up.
@@justdb4okay and?
Like winterosy says in the video, none of the jyp groups they use as examples are failures, but they don’t have a strong identity.
Blackpink’s success has nothing to do with me saying they don’t have a strong identity. What’s the point of your response? Saying millions of people still eat up their music doesn’t magically give them a stronger identity.
Fact is they don’t really have an identity outside their style of music. Which hasn’t impacted their success since they just haven’t done anything but that one incredibly formulaic style. But if they did try something new it would be glaring obvious that their whole existence as a group relies on that one very specific song structure and sound. And despite millions of people eating it up there are still those that are dissatisfied.
No, at the end of the day me saying this isn’t going to effect their success. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid critique or not worth saying.
@@justdb4this video isn’t about the song itself it’s about the identity of groups so what kind of songs they never said they hate jyp music and there is a reason jyp gets the most views after yg(who’s getting carried by BP)
The transitions at 5:26, 6:39 and 11:11
had me going back to watch again.
I feel like the video is a little too biased towards SM. It seems to me that Red Velvet has a hard time making waves internationally since Queendom (probably because of the lack of Velvet concepts), their fanbase is not expanding anymore and their last comeback, Birthday, didn't really make an impact on the industry (their B-sides are still amazing tho). As for Aespa, a lot of fans were a tired of the sci-fi concept and "kwangya lyrics" with 'Girls' and SM really toned it down with 'Spicy' which means that there was a problem with the group's identity and the public reception
Nothing was toned down for Spicy! Their recent comeback took place in the REAL WORLD which they have repeatedly shown multiple times like in Forever, Life’s too short, etc.
Naevis was literally featured in Welcome To MY World and the æs are touring with them (behind the big screens obv)
@@scitwistuddybuddy7800 To be fair, it is their first comeback set in the real world so if their next comeback makes references to the virtual world, my argument won't stand. On the other hand, Welcome to my world isn't the title track of the album, Spicy is. Spicy is the song in charge of representing the comeback to the general public and it is, as you said, set in the real world. Overall, I still think that SM chose to go a more traditional route with Spicy because people didn't like Girls and how similar it felt to their previous title tracks in terms of visuals and lyrical themes.
@@minale3604most people loved girl what u mean? they literally doubled their savage album sales but also they changed the concept to spicy because in girls they defeated the black mamba what gives them the chance to escape kwangya or the flat or something (i don't really know where they were in) and they decided to bring naevis with them. but my point is probably next 1 or 2 comebacks something is probably gonna occur in their storyline for them to have to go back to the futuristic world and defeat another monster
Actually, one of the members of aespa (I think Karina), mentioned they have been listening to "Spicy" for years, in fact, she is also the one that pushed it to be a title track for this album. It's literally part of their lore. So, nothing was "toned-down" for this comeback, in fact, some believed that one of the potential title tracks was "Salty & Sweet", due to it being very aespa 2021 coded (it could literally fit their "Savage" mini album). Also, people actually like "Girls", at least MYs and some non-MYs; what people were complaining about was the length of the song, and it's funny how the same ones are complaining about kpop songs being short nowadays. Until their next comeback, we can't really say much.
And to add something: people have been complaining about the Kwangya lyrics since Black Mamba era, but SM still proceeded with their concept by releasing Next Level, Savage and Girls.
Red velvet fan base is still growing birthday was there highest selling album
15:23 the way the monster instrumental slowly creeps in.... shivers down my spine.
i love this editing i love the commentary its just a great video.
this is the kinda stuff that inspires me to start my own ktube channel but i dont have enough time cuz of school for at least the next year until i graduate...
but boy do i have things to say and boy do i have visions on how to portray/edit it all
I love every artist in Sm, i wish you could talk about NCT and how they create their own sub gender of music who influence groups before 2016
As a Twice fan, I loved watching this video! One thing that JYP is bad at is marketing/promoting their artists. Once a group of theirs becomes popular, they just fumble the bag. ITZY were monster rookies, then the Sneakers situation happened and they lost fans (at least just international fans). NMIXX, despite the massive hate train they got during the start, released songs that got people's attention then eventually released Love Me Like This, which I think derailed NMIXX's entire concept.
I apologize if the comment is a but too long, just wanted to rant a bit. To whoever's reading this, I hope you have a great day.
The fact that the only active artists in JYP that have a strong identity imo (Stray Kids, Day6 and Xdinary Heroes) are the ones that are heavily involved in their music really says something about JYP as a company...
u saved my day im not just saying this u actually did tysm 😭
Twice was, and I guess still is, JYP's most successful and stable venture ever. Their concept and sound are the most recognizable overall, and even in their solos and unit ventures, you can tell it's still twice related.
Sadly, it took quite a lot of takes for JYP to get there, and it seems that at least for their Korean ventures, it will take a lot of new tries to repeat that success. NIZIU works because they are under a Japanese company and translate TWICE ideals into a Morning Musumeish concept quite fluently.
When of successful ventures in KPOP we talk, SM is the best example, not only because they know what they are doing but also because they emulate stuff from other successful idol companies and industries a lot. As you said, Building a strong, quality-driven identity just works better.
stan red velvet💗💛💙💚💜
oh btw what a great video mr. winterosy, respect for ur hardworking for this video🤗
ahgase here: jype definitely failed got7, and i think one of the biggest problems was middle child syndrome. they were the follow up to 2pm's massive success, so they got saddled with a hip hop sound that didn't necessarily suit them. of course then their sound changed over time to find what fit. then twice debuted with a built in audience, so more promo went to them. but got7 were still winning music shows, end of year awards... they weren't "flops" or "falling off" or anything, and they were HUGE on variety programming. while i hate that we only got like one week of promo for the last few albums, they were kind of like exo and didn't NEED huge promo to still get the sales. got7 has the name recognition to get the sales without the promo.
at the time skz debuted, i think a lot of ahgases and fans in general saw jype giving them more freedom in production kind of like "okay well it can't hurt anything." because at that point, jype already had three successful groups up and running (twice, got7, day6), so skz was an experiment at the start of 4th gen. other fans (largely stays) always seem to forget that got7 and 2pm also produced their own music, but weren't allowed the freedom of self production until later in their careers. even groups like shinee exo bigbang weren't allowed to have hands on their own productions until they'd established themselves. seems like a 2nd / 3rd gen thing.
i also wouldn't say it's accurate to say got7 has faded from the industry when jackson mark bambam youngjae and yugyeom are actively releasing projects and selling out tours and fan meetings,,,,, idk the math isn't mathing (we cannot forget the big ol' jyp stock drop when got7 announced they were ALL leaving the company). plus being able to come back together as 7 under 7 labels and still put together a full album for fans says a lot about their identity as a group and a team, which is largely what draws people to them and keeps such a strong fanbase after nearly a decade.
tldr: got7 is jyp's middle child, sm clearly has a better BRAND identity for sure, but in terms of groups i think there's more context + subjectivity involved.
Editing immaculate as always
This was an incredibly well edited video i was in awe the whole time
Alternative title: "SM vs JYPe comparison video made by an SM stan"
Someone’s bitter
@@dibidibidis3367 absolutely am. What do u except? A biased video deserves bitter expressions.
They made a biased video disguised as a general video. So naurrr
@@somebodygill8666 No they made a video with valid criticisms while giving examples of more efficient ways to do what jyp was trying to succeed, and your just a bitter company Stan who doesn’t know how to take in any form of negativity towards yours favs 🤷♀️
@@dibidibidis3367 okay.
@@dibidibidis3367preach. At the end, you can’t say that winterosy was wrong in this video
As a diehard midzy this video hurts lol
Kpop is never that deep, stan and listen to whoever you want
Right 💀
Spill!!!! Like whatever you like! Be yourself!
Right? Listen to songs you like despite the group or company.
@@asleep_or_dead and the video never said you can’t like whatever you like? It was a personal take on what they specifically like about sm groups and the flaws they see in jyp groups that make them less inclined to stan.
no one is saying you can't stan and listen to certain groups. this video is not a bashing, but an analysis.
The first 3 koreans comeback that showed a change in twice's sound were Feel Special, More & More and I Can't Stop Me. These songs have NOTHING to do with each other, they don't establish a new sound or style, they completely different. To me, it seems like their management knew they had to change their concept but couldn't create a new identity for the group.
crying because dalla dalla was one of the best debuts ever and then... what happened man
i feel like people started not liking itzy after not shy but for me not shy is one of their best songs. it fits with the self empowerment theme. It's everything after that, that i'm not thrilled with
you always release amazing videos like the quality is TOP TIER
Everything about this is so perfectttt likee you never disapoint 😩
i feel like sometimes JYP copies SM. Maybe not on purpose but like. NMIXX and their MIXX pop? like is that not just the whole of SM. plus Twice and SNSD, i remember them saying Twice was made to be the SNSD of JYP.
Yes!!! i’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed this. Twice is another SNSD, Itzy is F(x), and NMixx is Red Velvet 😂
I need a part two also I need an SM vs hybe version like I've always been waiting for someone to speak on this
Hybe is pretty good with maintaining their group identity..
This video was so interesting and very well made, and I totally agree with you. Obviously having good music and consistency in concepts and quality is very important but identity and knowing what to expect from a group is (in my opinion) the key factor to be a successful group. And when I say successful group, I'm not necessarily talking about having amazing charts and being known by everyone. I'm talking about appearing as real and consistent artists. NCT is in my opinion a good example of that. We never know what form their comeback will take, but their intrinsic substance remains the same because they have a strong identity. Actually, the comparison between JYP and SM was genius because when I think about artists with strong identities and that I personally call "artists", most of the people I can think of are from SM (e.g Taemin, Key, Taeyong). Now that I think about it, I think majority of my ult groups are ones with a strong identity, groups who always try different sounds and concepts but who keep their substance (Ateez, NCT, Xdinary Heroes...). JYP's lack of identity is sad considering the potential of their groups but I agree with your statements. I've never been really interested in a JYP group apart from Xdinary Heroes, which is in my opinion the JYP's group with the strongest identity. But having and developing an identity isn't just about the music, it's about the way a group embodies their core concept. I'll take Boynextdoor as an example, who despite being rookies, have become my ults in a very short space of time. For me, they already have a strong identity, through their music and lyrics, but above all through the way in which the members embody the band's name and concept. Boynextdoor isn't just a name or a concept, it's the very essence of what the band stands for, without necessarily meaning to. But it's little details like that that make up a band's identity, and those details are very complicated to put together.
I think I understand twice in a very different way compared to others. A lot of kpop fans cling around for groups doing either the same concept or switching it around for each comeback. But concepts in themself are not what makes music music, it's the persona. Concepts are made more for marketing, and are meant for starting groups. Concepts are what draws people in and persona is what makes them stay.
Twice's musical journey and persona is unique and during the 8 years of their activity I've seen the most growth personally. For them it has always felt authentic, especially because they do contribute to their own music and image.
For then in contrary, Red Velvet for example. They have a solid concept they've played to, with mixing up it a lot but keeping the horror in it. It's pretty, it's intriguing, but the musical image hasn't grown that much, probably and most likely as they haven't been releasing music as much. In their prime years their somewhat quirky and fun but at times horror concept was really good, but right now their last album wasn't it, with it feeling more like some 4th gen groups 2nd ep.
I view good group persona more important than a concept, when I think of a group I like the best description for it need to be "it's just so x-group name" not "I love their x-concept"
I think similarly for (G)i-dle, who had this darker concept in their early days, but grew like twice, and now can't be really defined that way. And then more negatively for ITZY, who like others started their journey from a more solid concept, and then rather than finding a persona they had an identity crisis.
Similarities between Twice and SNSD, aka Girls’Generation:
1) SNSD’s Kissing You / Twice’s lightstick -> both are lollipops (before twice, lollipop was the icon of SNSD).
2) SNSD’s TaeTiSeo / Twice’s MiSaMo -> both are trio subunit, both groups’ names are the combination of members’ name.
2) SNSD’s Oh / Twice ‘s Cheer up -> cheerleading
3) SNSD’s Gee / Twice’s TT -> shortened sounding of their group’s name (G=Girls’ Generation, T=Twice)
4) SNSD’s Gee / Twice’s What is love -> white top + blue jeans
5) SNSD’s Say Yes / Twice’s Yes or Yes -> opening of the both songs sound almost identical.
6) SNSD’s Oh and Run Devil Run / Twice’s I can’t stop me -> each member have their own doppelgänger.
7) SNSD’s Party / Twice’s Alcohol-Free -> similar concepts! Both filmed as having party at the beach, both songs have a part that mentions different types of drinks in the lyrics.
8) SNSD’s Lion Heart / Twice’s Signal -> both fall in love with an inhuman creature.
9) Tiffany’s Just wanna dance / Twice’s Dance the night away -> similar lyrics in the chorus as both have the phrase “dance the night away”
10) Taeyeon’s Spark / Twice’s One Spark
11) and many more including dance steps, outfits at concerts and in other MVs, photoshoots, etc.
Although JYP previously stated that he would like to create another group like SNSD, Twice has been copying SNSD's concepts extensively since the beginning without giving any credit. Since SNSD gained significant popularity from these concepts, the same goes for Twice.
@@sonexcarat99 this is very much just reaching. A lot of groups use similar sounds, because pop music in general uses a lot of samples and basic rythms.
Summer concept is one of the usual concepts in kpop, with groups like sistar, oh my girl, etc doing it. Same goes for school girl concept, and falling in love with non human concepts, older groups like dia did it too.
Song names are literally just words, dua lipa released dance the night, with the lyric dance the night away right at the chorus, is that copying then too?
At this point you’d call having the same bdm copying too so just step out the keyboard for a while and try to just think positively about what you like and focus on things that make you happy, so your hobby doesn’t have to be hating on people on the internet.
@@quuenbanaana8425 first of all, it is not just concepts that I was talking about but the actual dance steps, outfits, MV scenes, etc. None of Twice’s music videos or outfits look like Sistar so idk why you mentioned them, while there are many references to SNSD’s. There are videos on youtube made about this so you can check those out if you have a moment. Also, I assume you were not aware about this but when Twice’s Dance the night away was out, many people claimed it copied Dua Lipa’s. I know everyone’s life is busy, but if you go through my list and compare one by one, I hope you can see it for yourself.
@@sonexcarat99 if you go that route of ”this specific thing is copying, having the same outfit is copying, doing x is copying”
Everything becomes copying. Kpop concepts are in themselves just concepts that many groups use. In art, everything is already done before, so the only thing you can do is rearrange thoughts, ideas, outfits, concepts into new things.
And by your points of having similar concepts or having a same word in the title that will mean that: EXO, Justin Bieber, ONF, des’ree, solar, clean bandit, mamamoo, lovelyz, celine dion, chopin, avril Lavigne, dove cameron, distirbed, stratovarius, reckless love, IVE, billlie, Ava Max, Camila Cabello, shall i go on? Have ”copied” SNSD.
If i were to dig in to specifics, concepts, outfits, album covers, names I would find the exact reaches you found but with SNSD and another older artist. Because everything, is inherently a copy of another idea, just spun into new and fresh art.
@@quuenbanaana8425 I understand what you mean, but there are numerous visible similarities between Twice and SNSD. I could easily point out over 20, which is concerning. There are many RUclips videos about this that you can refer to which I hope you will check those out in your spare time. Borrowing ideas from others is not wrong per se, but if it’s mainly from one group then it should be considered an issue. Like I said, JYP did say before that he wants to create a replica of SNSD, but I didn’t expect his production team to go this far.
I feel like the strong sense of identity has really helped Ateez in its growth in the past couple of years. They've very much defined the music around a storyline and have a consistent sound. The only thing I worry about is if people get tired of where they are and how they can continue to evolve. Though directly connected to this video, I find it interesting you think Aespa is a great sense of identity. It kind of feels like they've been losing traction and losing their sense of identity in their songs. They aren't my favs but I kind of wish they would go back to more of what they're known for.
Though Twice is not the main talk of the town that's what usually happens to an older group. Most groups and company always look for growing a fanbase that is loyal amd willing to spend money. Twice has acheived that already. Their album sales are doing well and they're doing oretty well on the world charts in different countries. They're also touring very successfully with tons of people attending. And most of all they are earning bank. They're still very profitable and relevant just not the fresh item in the market. Casual listeners will always change groups and parties as time goes by but only actual loyal stans will make a group stay. Twice is releasing great music and their album quality has really improved. They're also selling well so I think overall they're doing pretty well compared to most groups who debuted during and around their time. Most groups of that time are either disbanded already or at the verge of it considering that they're actually better off than most.
you are exactly right. that is something i would say sm has never liked - consistency. and that’s honestly reason why i can’t get behind any jype groups right now.
(i completely agree with everything you said but just want to praise itzy for a sec) i will say, i think Cake was a great release and a great album! i can’t personally say it was enough to redeem themselves but i think it was definitely a step in the right direction. even if their debut concept isn’t as strong as it was, at least the music is good 😔