Rack and Pinion vs steering box pros and cons Episode 337 Autorestomod
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- Rack and pinion steering versus worm and sector steering box. We take a detailed look at what makes a rack & pinion. We look at why steering boxes are now less desirable in the classic car market. We talk about steering road feel. We talk about parts availability.
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Thanks for watching!
Jeff Ford Contact:
Jford@autorestomod.com
Young buck knows his stuff. Well done, sir!!
Thanks for the discussion on this topic. I am debating on a Borgeson 12.7:1 box vs. Flaming River rack. Both are good options, but I will take a harder look at the new box + new column + plus new tie rods, idler arms, pitman arm, etc. Thank you!
They both have their pros and cons. Ball and gear is definitely more "sloppy" from my experience but that slop does tend to help in big (U-haul box truck or something similar) trucks or in off road vehicles where you want to filter some of that wander or roughness out. Another BIG advantage of a steering box is they are very tough, sure they get play but they rarely just flat out fail. I replaced the one on my 98 Jeep Cherokee but it had 230k and it still steered however it wasn't safe on the freeway. Plus it cost me $150 which is dirt cheap for a "new" box. I wouldn't want a tight and responsive rack and pinion system in a solid axle system they wander too much and you would be fighting the wheel in every rut.
Rack and Pinion, without a doubt, is better when it comes to feeling the road (for me that's being able to tell if your' wheels are going to lose traction in a curve). It's also much tighter from my experience with zero play, turn the wheel 1/8 of inch and the tires turn. Turn the wheel 1/8' in a gearbox system and the wheels barely move if they move at all. Works great in a sedan or even a front ifs half ton. I love the rack and pinion in my Grand Marquis it's a perfect balance of road feel and comfort plus it has variable assist. It's fantastic for long road trips too because the steering is light.
This video is purfect because cat and I started with rack and pinion steering I had a crx as my first car and yes u got have muscle to park them and people love there awful leaking power steering boxes some don't leak but I love the feel of a rack and pinion steering in my hands turning corners and steering wheel spins back in your hands as the wheels straighten out the feel is better and yes those Honda Crx cars had slolem awards for this car at 88mph
Just my opinion. And...by the way, I enjoy your videos! Definitely Two Thumbs Way Up! It's Memorial Day weekend, and I just ordered a Borgeson Power Steering Kit for my daughter's 1970 Mustang Convertible. A couple of reasons I went this direction, rather than rack and pinion! I bit the bullet and put one of these on a 1964 1/2 mustang that I owned a few years back. Was a night and day difference, turned the car into an easy to drive vehicle, and took the white knuckle frightening feeling out of California Freeway and Canyon Driving! Really an easy install on the 1968-1970 cars because they don't need the steering column cut down! The entire front suspension, steering, basically everything from rotor to rotor is brand new in my daughter's car! Did anyone say bump steer?! You put a 69-70 Camaro next to a 69-70 Mustang and you can see that Chevy was at least 10 years ahead of Ford! The rack and pinion are much harder to install! But the main reason?! That would be $$$$$$$$$!! For $1000.00 Borgeson puts you safely back on the road! $2500 plus,plus,plus is the cost of Rack and Pinion! I'm a chevy guy, and I've never had a 69-70 Camaro, Chevelle, Corvette, Nova have steering problems! These Ford's use a plunger to push pull the drag link!! The only plunger I want in the garage is the one I use to unclog the toilet! LOL! The Borgeson kit is all GM/Chevy!!! Absolute no-brainer! These are Friday Night, or Weekend get-together Cruise cars! You''d never drive them daily, for fear of having someone steal them the minute they're out of your sight! Take all that money you saved and buy yourself a Holley Stealth Fuel injection unit, and your car will start every time just by turning the key! No waiting for the engine to warm up, no gas smell, just a great car that won't leave you stranded, that drives and acts 100 times better than stock, both in steering and starting/driving! The Stealth adjusts for altitude, so driving to Hot August Night's in Reno is absolutely no problem! Obviously, if you're going to take the car on a racetrack, there are better options! I'm interested in making certain the mustang stays on the road, and in the right lane! My daughter is more valuable to me, than the mustang! By the way, this is what happens when a Chevy Guy names his only daughter, "Shelby"!! My other Shelby, a 1970 GT350 Convertible is on a body dolly in the garage! ( it kinda looks like a 1969 Camaro!)
Good points, thanks so much for the input!
I really like the borgeson conversion box and psc type 2 power steering pump on my 70 XR7. I believe its actually a recirculating ball type steering box rather than a worm and sector and has a 14:1 ratio. It gives me just enough assistance compared to the 16:1 ratio manual steering I was using before, and quicker turn in.
Have to agree that tightening everything up on the original steering really helps. Especially with the slave cylinder system. The bracket that holds the cylinder to the frame had come loose and added about 10 to 15 degrees of slop when I turned the wheel. The Pittman, idler arms and tie-rod ends are possibly original and should be replaced next.
Great tips, guys!
rack and pinion BMW E34 5 series ... still waiting for this dream to happen
Great video guys. Excellent points of view, some of which I hadn't considered. Thank you.
Our pleasure!
Thanks!
The steering gear box he’s referring to is strict mechanical steering correct? Not a hydronic power steering box.
2:14 drawering... was that a Norm Abrams shoutout? New Yankee Workshop?
Enjoyed the video. Surprised at the low viewership. Liked! Recommend to square up the top down camera between you two and if possible, to have the vehicle further behind for something to look over during the convo.
love your programs
I liked your explanation of the differences in steering options. And the awesome artistry. Learned something new. A lot of folks in the F100 world are going to a Crown Vic front end, as I believe you mentioned possibly doing to Col. Mustard. Some folks do a Mustang II. Both are rack & pinion options. I went cheap and rebuilt the Twin I-Beam, changed out the rag joint, and tightened the steering box. I was actually amazed at how much better it was than before. Only thing better would maybe be to add a quick ration gear box (a guy in Arizona makes an F100 box 14:1 !), and add front and rear sway bars. If I had a car though, I would definitely try to upgrade to a rack if possible.
Many folks underestimate what an alignment can do for steering too.
Let me ask you this, do any shops these days KNOW how to align a twin I-beam system?? And is it possible to put 2-3 degrees of positive caster on it?
Yes. Ford Dealerships can do Twin I Beam...the question is, is there a good alignment guy there TO do it? I am pretty sure that the trailing arms control caster on the I-Beams. I'll take a look at it on the Col.
I have a 1970 Ford F100 with manual steering and 3 on the tree. I would like power steering. Can you direct me to parts that will do the job converting a manual to power steering and keeping the three gears on the column? Thanks
Some things I’ve never heard a discussion on was how much force is being applied to the spindle tie-rod arm by each system or how far the stroke should be to get the steering from lock to lock. The reason I’m asking is because sometimes I find a spindle solution ( for a lowered vehicle) that has everything except the correct lever arm length. Older designs appear to have much longer levers, probably because back in the earlier years several models may have had the manual, “Armstrong” steering boxes, and the geometry among the models with power steering remained the same with the same length levers. Newer models almost always, with few exceptions, come with power steering and the considerations of lever lengths and the forces back to the steering wheel are numbed because they will never be a non-power assisted design.
Scenario: lowering spindle has a shorter tie-rod lever, looking for an appropriate R&P steering setup that can work with a 5” spindle tie-rod lever instead of a 7” lever.
There are a couple of solutions in the market. RRS USA has a completely redesigned cast steel steering knuckle (much like the factory spindle) with a completely redesigned tie rod arm that helps with bump-steer and deflection. Gateway Mustang has a near identical system and uses a welded steering knuckle. Both systems mount the strut to the knuckle rather than the lower arm.
Autorestomod Manic Mechanic Gasoline Media Thanks for that. My application, an earlier Dodge D series Pickup, is lacking in aftermarket support, but I’ll shout RRS a contact and see what comes back.
@@EamonnSeoigh any luck ? 91.5 D250 hear all new parts installed now ive got more slop than what than what I consider "Broke Bad Enough To Fix"....
Here's another viewpoint. I have a Ford with column shift manual transmission. I've looked at Borgeson and CPP steering boxes. Neither will work. The Borgeson requires the steering column to be cut to the extent that there is no room for the shift mechanism. The CPP "400" box would move the sector shaft/pitman arm a minimum of 3/4 inch toward the firewall which seriously alters the steering geometry. Therefore, the only choice is R&P or stock power steering.
Oh, to be sure! We went with the slave cylinder style on the Wagon due to just those issues. Keep in mind too that a rack can also impact column shift cars due to the column having to be shortened and a bearing installed.
Road feel IS feedback, no?
I didn't hear any discussion of 'bump steer' issues and it's affect in choosing or defining rack vs.r box.. Especially when your sitting right in front of one of the worst offenders of same. The Ford double I beam
. tfs.
Oddly the aftermarket racks we have installed have had very little bump steer. BUT one could do an episode on bumpsteer issues--just on Ford products. And yes, the F100 I-beam had issues...might even have subscriptions...
I want to convert to rack & pinion on my Maverick (same steering & suspension design as classic Mustang) using a rack for a Chevy Cavalier. It is the center bar mouunt design. So tired of the leaky power-assist,, and want a slightly quicker ratio.
RRS Suspension offers a rack for the Maverick: www.rrs-online.com.au/70-77-maverick-rack---pinion.html
What about the Crown vic front end swap, I was sure you were going to mention it especially since you had the F100 in the background.
This was just discussing the difference between the two types of steering. The Crown Vic swap would be a separate video. We've looked at doing one on a local truck but the owner went in a different direction...
@@AutoRestoMod I wish I was local, my 71 F100could use a better front end. I have front disc and power steering but you know it floats and sways.
thank you for all the info!! Question. I got a 94 ford explorer sport and I was think of upgrading the steering to rack and pinion. After watching this video, I think i will stay with the original steering. I put a new gear box and replace all the tie rod ends and center link. I do however would like to upgrade the suspension to an IFS and IRS. What are your thoughts on the suspension conversion?
Not aware that there is anyone doing an IFS for the Ranger. I think the 4X4 had an IFS setup, but not sure how that would play.
91.5 d250 as a front stear r&p parts recommendations ? I live in the mountains so everyday is a autocross day. Gets more fun on black ice for 75 mi @65-70.
Not happy with the P/S system... in a kick out slide skin correction response rate from me is too fast for the system. Back-end and kicks out make my steering correction halfway through the correction power steering runs out and goes Armstrong finish the movement get the front and back over where it needs to be. Same thing happens on the next phase, it is quite unnerving. Is this an indication of the veins and pump failing or the pump just has to slow of a spin speed at 800 to 1000 RPM engen(cummins gear driven off cam gear)
Well, a D250 at full chat with the Cummins screaming on a mountain road with you looking out the side glass to see where you are going sounds fun. The pump may have two things going on: you make have a slosh issue that is causing the pump to cavitate or it may be that the pump is just worn and needs replacement.
@@AutoRestoMod thanks and yes its a blast looking out the wrong window to see were I'm going... parts quality is an issue with the stock set up aftermarket are sloppy out of the box. What Rack is recommended for a 1st gen ram D250
Hay guys. Have a 70 Mustang 351w stroked to 408. Hooker headers manual with cable. Previous owner installed tcp manual r@p. Globalwest suspension neg roll uppers boxed lowers. Road racer but never raced by previous owner or me. I hate the manual. I cruise and do car shows. Rack is so expensive with the tcp pump alone costing $1,200.00. Been looking at installing borgenson intregal and of course all new steering linkage with roller idler and I'm still under the cost of power rack. Had Spec set up at 2.5 caster, o camber and 1/8 + toe for street. Does it make sense to go the borgenson? I think it would fit between header and frame. Like you said, people would expect rack especially if I sell it. Your opinion please.
I think that the Borgeson box will work fine, but it will not be as responsive. My first rule of thumb is to make me happy. I don't tend worry as much about the future owners LOL. I liked the Boregeson box on the '67 but realized that it will be giving up a little in the cat quick reflexes department when compared to a rack.
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the response
@@AutoRestoMod One other thing if you don't mind. If I do Install a power rack it will be tcp. If I can only find a pump that would work instead of theirs. Tcp`s is adjustable. I don't need that. They spec out 1.8 to 2.2 gpm @ 900psi max. I am having trouble finding that. Borgeson is 2.5 to 3.5 gpm with psi being 950 to 1050. Any suggestions? Thanks.
To my understanding the reason why racks attach to the tie rods in the middle is to control bump steer
Mmm yes and no. Bump steer is something I will be covering in a Manic Mechanic. They place the tie rods on the bar as close to the original position as possible and that controls the bump steer. It could also be controlled with a center steer rack IF the tie rods were in the correct placement for front end geometry.
Just in time, desperately want to chuck that sloppy original box.
So basically, for a 65' L6, are there decent actual decent steering boxes? Or should I just do a rack?
I daily drive this car, but I do like a "sporty" feel at a minimum.
EDIT: KITTY!!!
Well, NPD offers boxes, and you can get the thing to handle pretty well using 2-3 degrees of positive caster. The rack is going to run you in excess of $1000. There is also the Borgeson box which we have used with great success. So keep that in mind.
What about electric steering?
I wonder wat made u draw pics like a bby instead of throwing the actual parts lol🤔🤔🤦🏽♂️
Wonder no more. I didn't want to sped four days cutting cross sections of racks and steering boxes. What makes you write like a 13 year old girl?
This discussion type presentations are boring and a waste of time. Since you know your stuff just enlighten us leaving out the conversation
We do what we do. First complaint we've had about our style.
So do wonder rack and pinion dosen't make a good bar car
Do =no
Hahahahaha, no, not a good day drinking tiller...not that you should be doing that anyway.
@@AutoRestoMod I out grew that
Kitty found today's discussion boring.
If food isn't the topic she finds it boring.