A stock muscle car setup is not good for track handling past a certain point. That’s after all the upgrades and tuning the t bar in the box and size of steering wheel for feel. That said, that point is far beyond what I need with an eight inch all season tire. Also, the cruising or touring ability of a 12 to one ratio, starts to suck because it constantly needs driver attention and tends to react instantly to input, wether from the road and wind or the driver. This makes it harder to keep straight in a drag race. It just starts to feel like work after a while. The original setup while bad for g’s was extremely comfortable to drive and was a compromise that was just too cushy on the steering effort and more than a twelve to one ratio. With taller ball joints and a longer upper A arm I’m in a decent compromise between a performance setup and a soccer mom setup. A smaller steering wheel with variable 12:1 box that the ss came with works great for me with a big ass sway bar to finish it off. Modern springs and shocks take off the sharp edges . I was completely unhappy dragging or cruising with the rack and pinion setup. Same with giant race brakes. I went from a manual Wilwood setup that worked extremely well on the track but in stop and go cold brake cruising or drag racing they kinda sucked. I then switched over to ls disc brakes up front with the s-10 blazer rears with hydro boost and they have way better cold performance but will fade on the track. I’m more into doing what these cars were built for originally now. It’s a muscle car. Not a sports car. My 68 Chevelle has a 12:1 varia
The biggest issue with rack & pinion conversions, regardless of generation or chassis, is the companies selling them aren't having racks built for the specific application. They are adapting racks designed for other cars that they deem to be "close enough". This often results in an insufficient turning radius and the tie rods never accurately match the arc of the suspension. It's not until you get into a full aftermarket chassis, such as those built for C1-3 Corvettes utilizing C4+ suspension, that you actually get a system that is designed to work together. If you're building a big tire drag car that doesn't need a lot of front end travel, the conversions cut some weight and work OK. If you're going to that extent though just do a Mustang II or similar front clip and save a ton of weight. For anything else, update and upgrade the factory style steering system.
Definitely part of the issues related to these rack conversions. If you're going to an aftermarket frame, designed around the system, you're good to go. Adapting it to factory frames is not typically the best idea.
The only "thought" I would add, is my 3rd gen F body's steering box is well forward of the motor / exhaust, and there are no "full size" sub frames, additionally, I have mine on a diet, trying to loose any / all weight I can. With modern K member options, i think the "bump steer" issue can be engineered out. Full disclosure, I do not have one in stalled yet, but it is on the list. Very good video and thoughts. Thanks
There are always certainly considerations that would need to be made based on your goal. My information here is more for 1st generation cars because they are rear steer instead of front steer. When GM changed the F-body to front steer with the 2nd generation, that changes a lot.
All these years. I always wanted to learn about steering and ways to improve it on the f-body. There is. Company making full f-body frames today. I wonder about the steering on that frame. Thankyou for this knowledge so invaluable.
Yes there are several full chassis frames and sub-frames available for the first generation f-body. They are typically better in every measurable way to the factory sub-frame. Their packaging makes use of a rack and pinion the better option vs a box with the factory sub-frame.
So true ,good video ,just because its newer design does not make it better ,the s,l,a front end system is a good suspension system, I've seen rack system put in Camaros and it just does not have a good feel, to me it makes your ride steering worse ,plus you have to customize your headers to make them work & it tells you on the box you can't use headers on the conversion, good video finally someone put out the facts on some of these so called factory upgrades .
I am not as well versed in the A-body cars, but my understanding is that the bump steer issue when going to a rack on the factory A-body frame is actually a worse deal than the first gen F-body.
I keep arguing with people that cars steered perfectly fine in the 60's. Once you put new parts into the steering, you don't have the "wander" that many old cars now have. I have seen cars with 4" of play, and that never was normal.
Absolutely. Cars didn’t steer terribly in the 60’s. Most boxes do have a dead spot on center, but they didn’t wander or track improperly. That’s the result of 50+ year old bushings, tie rods etc.
Thanks for your video! I have a 69 Firebird with an LS2 6.0 (2005 corvette) with headers, mated to a T-56, and full coilover suspension upgrade. I understand what you’re saying in this video and appreciate the insight, but wondering if your opinion would be different considering my setup?
If you are still running the factory sub-frame, my opinion doesn't change. The steering system doesn't know what engine and transmission is in the car and a coil-over upgrade doesn't change the relationship of the steering pickup points that are dictated by the steering knuckle and the attached steering arms. The packaging on a stock sub-frame just doesn't work well. Once you go to an aftermarket sub-frame that is designed around a rack and pinion, then absolutely run one. But on the stock sub-frame you end up with "better feel" at the price of actual handling performance. Many of the rack and pinion conversions are as much or more than a good Lee Power Steering or Turn 1 box. The only "bolt on" rack and pinion for stock sub-frame cars that may be worth its salt is the Smith Racecraft conversion here. smithracecraft.com/product-categories/rack-pinion-steering/bolt-on-rack-pinion-kit-new. It completely transforms the car to a front steer package. To do so requires that you cut out large sections of the frame however. You cut out most of the front crossmember and bolt in a new bar, while discarding the longitudinal crossmember support. You also end up cutting a large oval in the K member for steering shaft clearance. All of this structurally weakens the frame. The k-member cut out should be gusseted to retain some strength, but nothing is provided for that. This kit likely does what it claims, but it takes a lot to get there. It sacrifices torsional rigidity in the frame, clearance for large sway bars and increases turning radius. They do claim to have different steering arms to cure this however. Based on the claims made and how this is designed, I get the feeling this is aimed at drag racers, where turning radius isn't as big of an issue and losing some torsional rigidity up front isn't as big of an issue. If the car is being built to handle, I don't think I would really recommend it.
I appreciate the advice Im going to stick with gear box. As far as the higher torsion bar valve what do I need to ask for when ordering the new gear box and which brand is the better choice. Would I be able to get it through NPD? It's the closest to me. Your video really put it into perspective for me, thank you again
Hey William, glad this was helpful for you. As far as torsion bar valving, most of the off the shelf stuff you find doesn't really have options for changing this. You kind of get what you get. The Lares box I have doesn't appear to be in production any longer, so a budget minded box I would recommend a Borgeson. You can get those from many different suppliers. If you believe you want to customize the steering to your liking, I would call up Lee Power Steering and talk with them. They can custom build you a box based on your needs. The price is of course, quite a bit higher however.
@@WilliamMorrison-nq6ev Lee Power Steering’s number is 661-568-9170. They don’t generally work on torsion bar size specifically, but valving as well. They are very knowledgeable and will help you get a box that fits your actual needs and feel vs simply selecting a larger torsion bar for the box. You may want to consider them building a pump specific to your combination as well.
Love the info very informative and helpful in fact you made enough sense im not going to install a rack but man hold the camera still. I cant watch it only listen.
@@williammorrison1433 I have a power steering box. I've had two sets of headers on this car, a very old set of Hedman 3 tubes headers and most recently a set of 1 3/4" Dougs Headers. both clear the power steering gear box without issue. I can't comment on other headers beyond the two I've run. In general the power and manual box will have the same clearance issues. It's the worm gear housing that causes interference and they will both be roughly the same size and in roughly the same location.
@@williammorrison1433 the 3 tube headman headers are small primary, cheap and don’t fit particularly well. I would only ever recommend them where there is a significant budget constraint. The Doug’s are well made and fit very well. I would buy a set of those. I think they run right around $1000 currently.
Love your content. I've been researching steering systems for my 1967 Firebird. What do you think about the front rack conversions available for the stock subframe?
On a stock subframe, spend your money on a nice box. The packaging of the racks in the stock firebird subframe worsen bumpsteer and will typically have exhaust clearance issues, especially with a Pontiac engine. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze. You end up sacrificing actual performance in the name of feel. Instead, my advice is to take the 1000-1500 you're spending on the rack, and put that towards a quality box from somebody like Lee or TurnOne.
No, I use traditional coil springs in my suspension. That said for street use I would start almost full soft on compression and near the center of your adjustment range for rebound. That type of setting should give you decent ride quality while getting rid of any floatiness. Tune to your liking from there.
@@pontiacontap thanks. Ill keep playing with them. Your power steering video is what brought me to your vid. Around 60mph or above my steering gets scary. One little nudge and I'm across the street. Cought me off guard one day when I jumped on the interstate.
Cool video, I have a 68 firebird with a 496ci pontiac motor and Kauffman hiport heads, I order the hedman husler round port headers and the power steering box won't work, it looks like I have to go with an manual steering box, do you know of a quick steering box that would work?
Hi Raul, thanks for the comment. I am not as well versed in the manual steering boxes. I did a little research however and I don't know if changing to the manual box is actually going to help you out at all. Both the manual and power steering box show to be 7" wide, which is where your contact with the header is coming in to play. I do also know that the manual box would require at minimum a pitman arm change, but may also need the drag link and idler arm as well. In this situation it is common to dimple the headers to get them to fit around the power steering box. I don't know if the exhaust ports on the High Ports are raised like the intake ports, but if so, that is also working against you, moving your exhaust tubes closer to the frame rails. Given the extent of modification from original dimensions of the KRE high ports, it's plausible you may have to have some custom fabrication of your driver's side header for clearance. If money was no object, and I was looking at solutions to handle what will surely be a 600+hp build with even as cast High Ports, I'd be looking at an aftermarket subframe with a front steer rack and pinion setup, as opposed to the rear steer components of the factory subframe.
Unfortuantely, the specific box I have, which is a Lares Corp 10972 has been on perpetual back-order for some time now. If you need an immediate replacement, I would look at a Borgeson box as an entry level offering. If your budget allows it, a Lee Power Steering or Turn 1 box is the best that I know of right now.
@@pontiacontap Thanks for quick reply! I got a 68 camaro and im knee deep in a ls swap. I need to replace my steering box and heatcore as well. I'll take a look at all these.
Howdy Billybob, thanks for stopping by. I am not as well versed on the 2nd gens, so I would still advise seeking out some information from somebody more familiar with that platform. That said, the 2nd gen cars move to a front steer system vs. the rear steer system found on 1st gen F-bodies. It my understanding that the suspension system on the 2nd gen is closer to that of an A body. That being the case it's possible that a rack may actually be even worse in a 2nd gen than in a 1st gen. I did a bit of research and it appears that the kits made for the 2nd gen include bracketry that relocations the rack to a more favorable position. However that seems to coincide with a good amount of increased cost. I've seen anywhere from $1500.00 to $2300.00. Given that, I like the KISS method. You can go all out on a Lee Power Steering box that will give you 90% of the steering feel with the potential to save as much as $1000.00. You can put that money back into the car elsewhere.
@@billybobbubbawubba9457 the Guldtrand mod is proven on the first gen’s. My understanding is that the 2nd Gen still benefits from it but that you don’t target the negative camber gain, but the additional caster. The slightly taller spindle of the second Gen helps the negative camber gain in bump. That said I believe that even the typical g-mod on the 2nd gen is likely beneficial. Although there is such thing as too much negative camber gain, I don’t believe you’d achieve that with early GM SLA architecture and even if you could, you’d be able to overcome it through a static alignment change.
This is solely based on factory subframes. If you are going to an aftermarket subframe, they are almost universally designed around a front steer geometry with a rack and pinion. In that configuration, it fixes the geometry issues associated with running a rack in the stock subframe. There are some subframes that are oriented strictly towards drag racing that may accommodate a manual box. Because the car doesn't do nearly as much turning, most of these issues become moot in a front half drag car.
Sounds like you have a properly performing suspension system! The idea that these cars had poor steering isn't really accurate. It's probably the characterization of people that have been driving 30-50 year old cars that never had a box rebuilt and have the original bushings and joints in their steering arms and control arms.
I purchased my box from FirebirdCentral.com. Unfortunately they no longer carry it. The box is a Lares unit, so I would contact them directly and check on dealers that may have it available. I have also heard good things about the Borgeson boxes. You might give one of those a try if your budget doesn't allow for a Lee or Turn 1 box.
ok so i actually build race cars and muscle cars for a living. i own more than i should too. this guy is full of bullshit. feeding you horseshit. as a pro im calling the fake newb tuber out. 1 bump steer lol that comes from the positioning of the steering arms. 2 when you put a rack in you make it a front steer. the arms are infront of the engine eliminating bump steer myth. gives you all the room. turns easier as a manual so you dont need power. is lighter. better response. contact autofab. not a lubetuber.
What types of race cars do you build? If you are building cars that focus on turning, you're aware that bump steer is caused by the tie rods moving in an arc circle larger or smaller than the arc circle that the control arms are moving in. Changing from a rear steer setup, to a front steer setup doesn't magically mean that bump steer is no longer an issue. As a race car builder, you are also aware that the considerations for a race car can be quite different from the considerations of a street car. The stock subframe on a first generation F-body has very little room to move a rack in front of the steering knuckles. The K member has a reses that makes mounting a rack without significant amounts of cutting difficult, degrading torsional strength if not done correctly. The sway bar additionally runs the span between the K member and the front torsional support where a rack would typically live. Most street cars will not be able to run the types of spring rates necessary to eliminate the front sway bar all together. I try not to work in absolutes and I've never said a box is inherently better in every circumstance as a rack. There is a reason OEM's use racks. But, when it comes to a first gen F-body with a factory subframe, in my opinion the juice is not worth the squeeze on a car that predominantly is driven on the street. If you're building a purpose built race car, especially one that is meant for drag racing, or have an aftermarket subframe, the rack becomes a better option.
“Autofab”?🕵🏽♂️ So you try to sell us something... Missed the whole point. Ours are “STREET CARS”🇺🇸 We are NOT racing. Where frame options & funding are limitless. My steering doesn’t tire me out, as is. Proper camber & refreshing it, is all I need. But respect to your knowledge.
A stock muscle car setup is not good for track handling past a certain point.
That’s after all the upgrades and tuning the t bar in the box and size of steering wheel for feel.
That said, that point is far beyond what I need with an eight inch all season tire.
Also, the cruising or touring ability of a 12 to one ratio, starts to suck because it constantly needs driver attention and tends to react instantly to input, wether from the road and wind or the driver.
This makes it harder to keep straight in a drag race.
It just starts to feel like work after a while.
The original setup while bad for g’s was extremely comfortable to drive and was a compromise that was just too cushy on the steering effort and more than a twelve to one ratio.
With taller ball joints and a longer upper A arm I’m in a decent compromise between a performance setup and a soccer mom setup.
A smaller steering wheel with variable 12:1 box that the ss came with works great for me with a big ass sway bar to finish it off.
Modern springs and shocks take off the sharp edges .
I was completely unhappy dragging or cruising with the rack and pinion setup.
Same with giant race brakes. I went from a manual Wilwood setup that worked extremely well on the track but in stop and go cold brake cruising or drag racing they kinda sucked.
I then switched over to ls disc brakes up front with the s-10 blazer rears with hydro boost and they have way better cold performance but will fade on the track.
I’m more into doing what these cars were built for originally now. It’s a muscle car. Not a sports car.
My 68 Chevelle has a 12:1 varia
The biggest issue with rack & pinion conversions, regardless of generation or chassis, is the companies selling them aren't having racks built for the specific application. They are adapting racks designed for other cars that they deem to be "close enough". This often results in an insufficient turning radius and the tie rods never accurately match the arc of the suspension. It's not until you get into a full aftermarket chassis, such as those built for C1-3 Corvettes utilizing C4+ suspension, that you actually get a system that is designed to work together.
If you're building a big tire drag car that doesn't need a lot of front end travel, the conversions cut some weight and work OK. If you're going to that extent though just do a Mustang II or similar front clip and save a ton of weight. For anything else, update and upgrade the factory style steering system.
Definitely part of the issues related to these rack conversions. If you're going to an aftermarket frame, designed around the system, you're good to go. Adapting it to factory frames is not typically the best idea.
The only "thought" I would add, is my 3rd gen F body's steering box is well forward of the motor / exhaust, and there are no "full size" sub frames, additionally, I have mine on a diet, trying to loose any / all weight I can. With modern K member options, i think the "bump steer" issue can be engineered out. Full disclosure, I do not have one in stalled yet, but it is on the list. Very good video and thoughts. Thanks
There are always certainly considerations that would need to be made based on your goal. My information here is more for 1st generation cars because they are rear steer instead of front steer. When GM changed the F-body to front steer with the 2nd generation, that changes a lot.
putting rack and pinion in my nova this year along with electronic steering assist. I hate the look of that old 50 year old box.
All these years. I always wanted to learn about steering and ways to improve it on the f-body. There is. Company making full f-body frames today. I wonder about the steering on that frame. Thankyou for this knowledge so invaluable.
Yes there are several full chassis frames and sub-frames available for the first generation f-body. They are typically better in every measurable way to the factory sub-frame. Their packaging makes use of a rack and pinion the better option vs a box with the factory sub-frame.
So true ,good video ,just because its newer design does not make it better ,the s,l,a front end system is a good suspension system, I've seen rack system put in Camaros and it just does not have a good feel, to me it makes your ride steering worse ,plus you have to customize your headers to make them work & it tells you on the box you can't use headers on the conversion, good video finally someone put out the facts on some of these so called factory upgrades .
You just saved me about $2,000! Subscribed!!
Glad you found that helpful! Appreciate the comment and the sub!
Floating down the road is all part the adrenaline,,,,the faster you go the better it is
My 72’ Chevelle says thx!
Wanna stay original as possible.😎
I am not as well versed in the A-body cars, but my understanding is that the bump steer issue when going to a rack on the factory A-body frame is actually a worse deal than the first gen F-body.
I keep arguing with people that cars steered perfectly fine in the 60's. Once you put new parts into the steering, you don't have the "wander" that many old cars now have. I have seen cars with 4" of play, and that never was normal.
Absolutely. Cars didn’t steer terribly in the 60’s. Most boxes do have a dead spot on center, but they didn’t wander or track improperly. That’s the result of 50+ year old bushings, tie rods etc.
Thanks for your video! I have a 69 Firebird with an LS2 6.0 (2005 corvette) with headers, mated to a T-56, and full coilover suspension upgrade. I understand what you’re saying in this video and appreciate the insight, but wondering if your opinion would be different considering my setup?
If you are still running the factory sub-frame, my opinion doesn't change. The steering system doesn't know what engine and transmission is in the car and a coil-over upgrade doesn't change the relationship of the steering pickup points that are dictated by the steering knuckle and the attached steering arms. The packaging on a stock sub-frame just doesn't work well. Once you go to an aftermarket sub-frame that is designed around a rack and pinion, then absolutely run one. But on the stock sub-frame you end up with "better feel" at the price of actual handling performance. Many of the rack and pinion conversions are as much or more than a good Lee Power Steering or Turn 1 box.
The only "bolt on" rack and pinion for stock sub-frame cars that may be worth its salt is the Smith Racecraft conversion here. smithracecraft.com/product-categories/rack-pinion-steering/bolt-on-rack-pinion-kit-new. It completely transforms the car to a front steer package. To do so requires that you cut out large sections of the frame however. You cut out most of the front crossmember and bolt in a new bar, while discarding the longitudinal crossmember support. You also end up cutting a large oval in the K member for steering shaft clearance. All of this structurally weakens the frame. The k-member cut out should be gusseted to retain some strength, but nothing is provided for that. This kit likely does what it claims, but it takes a lot to get there. It sacrifices torsional rigidity in the frame, clearance for large sway bars and increases turning radius. They do claim to have different steering arms to cure this however.
Based on the claims made and how this is designed, I get the feeling this is aimed at drag racers, where turning radius isn't as big of an issue and losing some torsional rigidity up front isn't as big of an issue. If the car is being built to handle, I don't think I would really recommend it.
Well filmed, wellspoken.
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words.
Great explanation! That firebird has A plus body and paint!
Thanks for the kind words!
I appreciate the advice Im going to stick with gear box. As far as the higher torsion bar valve what do I need to ask for when ordering the new gear box and which brand is the better choice. Would I be able to get it through NPD? It's the closest to me. Your video really put it into perspective for me, thank you again
Hey William, glad this was helpful for you. As far as torsion bar valving, most of the off the shelf stuff you find doesn't really have options for changing this. You kind of get what you get. The Lares box I have doesn't appear to be in production any longer, so a budget minded box I would recommend a Borgeson. You can get those from many different suppliers. If you believe you want to customize the steering to your liking, I would call up Lee Power Steering and talk with them. They can custom build you a box based on your needs. The price is of course, quite a bit higher however.
Is there a phone # or web site for them
What size torsion bar valve do I ask for, is it the size torsion bar I upgraded to with the kit I bought.
@@WilliamMorrison-nq6ev Lee Power Steering’s number is 661-568-9170. They don’t generally work on torsion bar size specifically, but valving as well. They are very knowledgeable and will help you get a box that fits your actual needs and feel vs simply selecting a larger torsion bar for the box. You may want to consider them building a pump specific to your combination as well.
Thank you
Love the info very informative and helpful in fact you made enough sense im not going to install a rack but man hold the camera still. I cant watch it only listen.
I'm glad you found that helpful. Thanks for taking a view and your constructive feedback.
Forgot to mention, I am restoring a 69 Firebird as well
Awesome, another '69 making it back to the road!
Did you have any problems with the fit of your headers that is if you went with a power steering gear box or did you go with manual
@@williammorrison1433 I have a power steering box. I've had two sets of headers on this car, a very old set of Hedman 3 tubes headers and most recently a set of 1 3/4" Dougs Headers. both clear the power steering gear box without issue. I can't comment on other headers beyond the two I've run. In general the power and manual box will have the same clearance issues. It's the worm gear housing that causes interference and they will both be roughly the same size and in roughly the same location.
@@pontiacontap which one of the two brands would you recommend and how much , if you know, ?
@@williammorrison1433 the 3 tube headman headers are small primary, cheap and don’t fit particularly well. I would only ever recommend them where there is a significant budget constraint. The Doug’s are well made and fit very well. I would buy a set of those. I think they run right around $1000 currently.
Love your content. I've been researching steering systems for my 1967 Firebird. What do you think about the front rack conversions available for the stock subframe?
On a stock subframe, spend your money on a nice box. The packaging of the racks in the stock firebird subframe worsen bumpsteer and will typically have exhaust clearance issues, especially with a Pontiac engine. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze. You end up sacrificing actual performance in the name of feel. Instead, my advice is to take the 1000-1500 you're spending on the rack, and put that towards a quality box from somebody like Lee or TurnOne.
Do you have coil overs? Iv got viking coilovers in my 71 nova. Trying to figure best settings for street. Rebound est...
No, I use traditional coil springs in my suspension. That said for street use I would start almost full soft on compression and near the center of your adjustment range for rebound. That type of setting should give you decent ride quality while getting rid of any floatiness. Tune to your liking from there.
@@pontiacontap thanks. Ill keep playing with them. Your power steering video is what brought me to your vid. Around 60mph or above my steering gets scary. One little nudge and I'm across the street. Cought me off guard one day when I jumped on the interstate.
Cool video, I have a 68 firebird with a 496ci pontiac motor and Kauffman hiport heads, I order the hedman husler round port headers and the power steering box won't work, it looks like I have to go with an manual steering box, do you know of a quick steering box that would work?
Hi Raul, thanks for the comment. I am not as well versed in the manual steering boxes. I did a little research however and I don't know if changing to the manual box is actually going to help you out at all. Both the manual and power steering box show to be 7" wide, which is where your contact with the header is coming in to play. I do also know that the manual box would require at minimum a pitman arm change, but may also need the drag link and idler arm as well. In this situation it is common to dimple the headers to get them to fit around the power steering box. I don't know if the exhaust ports on the High Ports are raised like the intake ports, but if so, that is also working against you, moving your exhaust tubes closer to the frame rails. Given the extent of modification from original dimensions of the KRE high ports, it's plausible you may have to have some custom fabrication of your driver's side header for clearance. If money was no object, and I was looking at solutions to handle what will surely be a 600+hp build with even as cast High Ports, I'd be looking at an aftermarket subframe with a front steer rack and pinion setup, as opposed to the rear steer components of the factory subframe.
I've got a 68 chevelle, what do you recommend? What's a good performance steering box?
For a real nice performance box I would look at Lee Power Steering or Turn 1. For a more budget friendly modern box I’d recommend the Borgeson boxes.
Do you have a link to your steering box? I'm looking to replace mine.
Unfortuantely, the specific box I have, which is a Lares Corp 10972 has been on perpetual back-order for some time now. If you need an immediate replacement, I would look at a Borgeson box as an entry level offering. If your budget allows it, a Lee Power Steering or Turn 1 box is the best that I know of right now.
@@pontiacontap Thanks for quick reply! I got a 68 camaro and im knee deep in a ls swap. I need to replace my steering box and heatcore as well. I'll take a look at all these.
I have a 2nd gen. Camaro, and am considering a R&P. Does this car have the same issues as 1st gen.?
Howdy Billybob, thanks for stopping by. I am not as well versed on the 2nd gens, so I would still advise seeking out some information from somebody more familiar with that platform. That said, the 2nd gen cars move to a front steer system vs. the rear steer system found on 1st gen F-bodies. It my understanding that the suspension system on the 2nd gen is closer to that of an A body. That being the case it's possible that a rack may actually be even worse in a 2nd gen than in a 1st gen. I did a bit of research and it appears that the kits made for the 2nd gen include bracketry that relocations the rack to a more favorable position. However that seems to coincide with a good amount of increased cost. I've seen anywhere from $1500.00 to $2300.00. Given that, I like the KISS method. You can go all out on a Lee Power Steering box that will give you 90% of the steering feel with the potential to save as much as $1000.00. You can put that money back into the car elsewhere.
@@pontiacontap Thank you, I'll stick with the reciprocating ball. Right now I need a new HVAC system. Never fails!
What do you know about the G-mod (Guildstrand) for adding caster?
@@billybobbubbawubba9457 the Guldtrand mod is proven on the first gen’s. My understanding is that the 2nd Gen still benefits from it but that you don’t target the negative camber gain, but the additional caster. The slightly taller spindle of the second Gen helps the negative camber gain in bump. That said I believe that even the typical g-mod on the 2nd gen is likely beneficial. Although there is such thing as too much negative camber gain, I don’t believe you’d achieve that with early GM SLA architecture and even if you could, you’d be able to overcome it through a static alignment change.
I went with a full UMI system. Big improvement, but not enough! Went cheap with a 12:1 Cardonne rebuilt. Mistake! Very notchy feel.@@pontiacontap
Is this still true for a modern sub frame
This is solely based on factory subframes. If you are going to an aftermarket subframe, they are almost universally designed around a front steer geometry with a rack and pinion. In that configuration, it fixes the geometry issues associated with running a rack in the stock subframe. There are some subframes that are oriented strictly towards drag racing that may accommodate a manual box. Because the car doesn't do nearly as much turning, most of these issues become moot in a front half drag car.
I have a box and my car reacts to any movement at the wheel.
Sounds like you have a properly performing suspension system! The idea that these cars had poor steering isn't really accurate. It's probably the characterization of people that have been driving 30-50 year old cars that never had a box rebuilt and have the original bushings and joints in their steering arms and control arms.
Where can I get the gear box you have
I purchased my box from FirebirdCentral.com. Unfortunately they no longer carry it. The box is a Lares unit, so I would contact them directly and check on dealers that may have it available. I have also heard good things about the Borgeson boxes. You might give one of those a try if your budget doesn't allow for a Lee or Turn 1 box.
ok so i actually build race cars and muscle cars for a living. i own more than i should too. this guy is full of bullshit. feeding you horseshit. as a pro im calling the fake newb tuber out. 1 bump steer lol that comes from the positioning of the steering arms. 2 when you put a rack in you make it a front steer. the arms are infront of the engine eliminating bump steer myth. gives you all the room. turns easier as a manual so you dont need power. is lighter. better response. contact autofab. not a lubetuber.
What types of race cars do you build? If you are building cars that focus on turning, you're aware that bump steer is caused by the tie rods moving in an arc circle larger or smaller than the arc circle that the control arms are moving in. Changing from a rear steer setup, to a front steer setup doesn't magically mean that bump steer is no longer an issue. As a race car builder, you are also aware that the considerations for a race car can be quite different from the considerations of a street car. The stock subframe on a first generation F-body has very little room to move a rack in front of the steering knuckles. The K member has a reses that makes mounting a rack without significant amounts of cutting difficult, degrading torsional strength if not done correctly. The sway bar additionally runs the span between the K member and the front torsional support where a rack would typically live. Most street cars will not be able to run the types of spring rates necessary to eliminate the front sway bar all together. I try not to work in absolutes and I've never said a box is inherently better in every circumstance as a rack. There is a reason OEM's use racks. But, when it comes to a first gen F-body with a factory subframe, in my opinion the juice is not worth the squeeze on a car that predominantly is driven on the street. If you're building a purpose built race car, especially one that is meant for drag racing, or have an aftermarket subframe, the rack becomes a better option.
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“Autofab”?🕵🏽♂️
So you try to sell us something...
Missed the whole point.
Ours are “STREET CARS”🇺🇸
We are NOT racing.
Where frame options & funding are limitless.
My steering doesn’t tire me out, as is.
Proper camber & refreshing it, is all I need.
But respect to your knowledge.