Even as an HSR nut, it is hard to justify this one. Even if it capture all of the air passengers, plus an equal amount of road passengers, and they all paid $100 a trip, then over a 10 year period you'd raise $3 billion in fares.
It would also be worthwhile building a new connection in Missouri off the Burlington line up past the airport and using the old 90 MPH Kansas City, Clay County, and St. Joseph Railway interurban routing up past the large airport mentioned here at Ferrelview. It would also be worth extending the Streetcar line parallel as far as that airport. As some of you may know, Kansas City also a downtown airport that pilots hate due to the steep flight approaches to it.
I think this is a line that would only work as part of a national network not in isolation. That way it could be used as a night train destination which could be a popular thing for tourism would give an extra 8 or 10 hours of travel.
I agree. I think the situation will also change in the future. Both metros are growing steadily. Colorado front range is growing steadily. Could be a different demographic situation in 30 years time when a couple more million people are involved or perhaps if Front Range Passenger Rail is in place.
Agreed, though I keep thinking about the potential if KC ever gets more major sports teams, say like a NBA team. The diehard fans of each sport more than likely would opt to use it to travel for big rivalry games between the two cities and back again. They in theory could do it all as a day trip, or even less than a full day, too. a average of a 9-10 hour day for them. A cool, relatively viable experience to say the least.
Seems like a good route. I also like your suggestions as to how to make the route useful for regional services as well. As for suggestions, it might be nice to see how you would extend this line to St Louis, as that is another major destination within reasonable rail distance, and the existing service is far too slow.
@@danielhutchinson6604 From KC to StL, it's 9 stops total, with a runtime of 5 hrs 40 min, no delays. For reference, the car route from station to station is about 4 hrs. Looking at HSR, I'd almost try and put it in the I70 right of way, which would change the route alot, but likely speed it up.
@@Trigm The Front Range might disagree? I have been over that trail many times. The Union Pacific went across Wyoming for a reason. The Cowboy line across Nebraska and over South Pass appears to be a more reasonable route to get to Utah. The route from Chicago through northern Iowa seems to be more favorable for promoting fast traffic. I believe your cost estimates are a bit optimistic..... But the ability to promote Passenger Traffic on the ground is gaining support.
As seemingly the only person in Kansas City who loves HSR, you made this specifically for me, whether you knew it or not. Thank you so much I loved every second.
Nebraska Furniture Mart is literally a giant furniture and appliance store. Honestly, it's pretty sweet. I've bought most of my furniture there, because you can get a lot of it with 0% interest for anywhere from 6-36 months. The whole development, including the Kansas Speedway and other attractions, is called The Legends. Kansas issues special development incentives called STAR Bonds for major attractions, and this is probably the largest example of a project built with STAR Bonds. Fun fact for roadgeeks: The first Buc-ee's in Kansas will be built soon at I-70 and Village West Parkway, just west of I-435!
@@LucidStew It's an amazing story, featuring Belorussian immigrant Rose Blumkin (Mrs. B) who founded it in Omaha in 1937. She sold it in 1983 to Warren Buffett in a handshake deal worth $60 million. She kept working at the store until her death at 102. Currently in my house I have two beds and a couch from NFM.
The KC lightrail project was abandoned in 2008. There are still rumblings about trying to build a true light rail system, but there's nothing other than extensions to the streetcar in the works at the moment.
@@qjtvaddict Stop building cars that need roads, that need Oil based products to continue to support the Investors in Fossil Fuel industries. The demise of the United States was hastened by the removal of the Mail from the rails. That happened as Muscle Cars appeared on Small Town Streets. Now the Small Towns are gone.
Nice! As a KC native, it saddens me a bit when you realize just how little traffic there is across the plains, though the idea of the getting to Denver in 3.5! hours is *really* attractive. Another really interesting route in the area I'd love to see is a continuation from KC on to Chicago, esp given the possibility of a stop in St. Louis (smth I think Amtrack fails at with it's current route setup)
Yeah, I used to live in the STL area and a friend of mine lives in the Denver area, so I've driven that in a day a couple of times. Its definitely a long, lonely drive. BUT, these ARE growth areas, so I don't think the situation between the two areas is static. Especially with the west filling up and becoming unaffordable, people are going to continue migrating back toward the Midwest where they can actually afford a place to call their own.
Really interesting concept but yeah it definitely would not be a priority, like you said I imagine a lot of the air traffic demand is connecting flight which makes me even more doubtful. Still really cool especially with such high speeds being achievable!
Agreed, and if other lines are built and shown to be successful, the will to invest could rise. Plus the network effects created when/if the Front Range line gets built, etc. Not a priority, but it'd be smart to start putting in safeguards from likely sections of the needed right of way getting built on in the mean time.
I was just in Denver for a convention downtown. The A-Line was fantastic. About a 35 minute ride. Every 15 minutes. On the airport end it drops you right at the security gates. If you are pre-checked in, a shorter distance then from a car drop off. On the downtown it is about one mile to the convention center. Many of the restaurants are between the convention center and Union Station so you end up walking half back every evening for dinner. Nicely done Denver.
This line would get way more ridership if it could be extended up into the ski areas like near Breckinridge. 14 million ski visitors to Colorado last year and if they didn’t have to get out at the Denver airport and drive another 2 hours up would be huge. That 2-3 hr saving would justify taking HSR from St Louis and probably even Chicago to go skiing. Would be make a great future video.
The cost to do anything like HSR would be astronomical. It would require tunnels that would make the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 look like child's play and the Glenwood Canyon I-70 construction seem trivial. There has been talk of some kind of "rail" service in the I-70 median (where there is one) for years simply to increase the capacity of the corridor, not go faster. I lived in Colorado for 41 years and made maybe 200 trips from Denver to Grand Junction (and back) and I can't see HSR in the mountains unless you have truly unlimited resources (time, money, labor).
@@kenglover2690 I’m sure it would be pricey but if it draws even half of the ski visitors at a similar price to an airline ticket that’s 7 million x $200 so $1.4 billion yearly revenue just from those passengers. Could payoff a pretty big loan with that.
It's funny, I actually saw a study of I-70 rapid transit arguing that medium-speed *maglev* would be the cheaper technology than HSR because it can handle 10% grades (no wheels to lose traction) and the increased tilt through curves allows higher speeds without tunneling. Of course, we're not building that either, but it illustrates how bad the terrain is for HSR.
It isn't just the current population served or current point to point demand, it is also the value of future development along the route, provided by efficient transportation. If you build it, they will come, more or less.
Love the video. I started working on a similar route in NIMBY rails, and got to Topeka. I think staying on the slower speed near Junction City and heading north into Manhattan is worth the detour for KSU. This also means as well that you would come into Topeka from the north, where UP has a very straight alignment. The existing amtrak station could certianly still be reached, however theres a beautiful historic rail station on the north side of the river, called the Great Overland Station. Theres pics on google maps and its lovely. Then from there to Lawrence you can continue on the same line past Perry. Again in Lawrence theres an old UP depot station that could be brought back into use.
Of all of the places outside of the Northeast and Chicago, Denver is the ONE city that has electrified commuter rail (until CalTrain EMUs start running later this year)
I've got two questions for you, Stew. First, could you do Chicago to Minneapolis/Saint Paul? I'm from the Twin Cities, and it'd be interesting to see how our only realistic HSR line would turn out (I guess Kansas City and St. Louis are also possibilities, but Chicago is the only one I could see happening in the foreseeable future). Second, have you considered doing routes outside of the U.S.? Lines like Toronto-Montreal, Calgary-Edmonton and Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane would be interesting videos.
Yeah, I'll do Chicago-Minn/St. Paul eventually. I'm giving the region some space after my Chicago-Milwaukee video tanked. While I'm dedicated to the idea, I also have to maintain some viable channel momentum. The less popular ideas will probably be sprinkled in among more popular ones. I'm not saying Chicago-Minn/St. Paul WILL do badly, but I have that fear now. I'm going to cover Detroit to Montreal at some point as it theoretically connects 3 U.S. HSR corridors. Being that this is a U.S.-aimed channel I do not have plans to branch out globally, but I may be able to be persuaded to do international render videos that are light on research, at some point. Part of that would be determined by how good the Google Maps data is in certain areas. Like with this video, the middle part is all 3d terrain-only(no 3d building data), hence no renders for those areas. I'd look for something like that more next year, if its going to happen.
@@LucidStew when you do that Min-Chi vid should def include the Mayo Clinic and the Wisconsin Dells as stops. Rochester is only 120k but serves at least twice that many patients plus their families every year and Dells is tiny but gets 4-5 million visitors per year.
@@LucidStew I wonder if a new catchier title and/or thumbnail could help the Chicago-Milwaukee video. I have been following you for a while, and I live near Chicago, but I was not suggested that video and was not aware of it. Just went and watched it now.
@@bunchifybunch I've no idea. I gave up on trying to figure out how RUclips works a while back. :) Some of it has to do with momentum. Some of it supposedly has to do with what you're watching at the time. Some of it has to do with what's going on in the world and what people are searching for. There are a lot of factors. Some videos don't do well, some do. L.A.-Phoenix for instance, I was expecting about half as many views. 🤷
CNW had a train running to Souix City from Minneapolis at one time. That is one of UP's big connecting routes to Wisconsin. But there is not so much traffic. They did do a lot of upgrades on the line after a few wrecks.
Great video, I was very excited when you announced it and you delivered. A few notes from me: 1. A line like this would eventually need to be extended to St. Louis to get connected to the broader Chicago network (bypassing River Runner) so it might make sense to tunnel under KC Union Station, instead of using freight RoW, to allow for express service to St. Louis without having to slow in KC. The same could be said for Topeka about tunneling since the station would already need a lot of work so you might want to just build a new station in a better location anyway and allow for high-speed express service but obviously, that would balloon the cost for a not huge city so it's pretty iffy. 2. As someone else has pointed out, Kansas politics is dominated by the rural central and western areas so, in my mind, a line like this would go one of two ways. Either none of those areas want anything to do with it so it'd be hard to get any state funding for, or every mayor and their mom wants a station put in their town to boost economic development so you end up having higher costs from the increased amount of stations. In both scenarios you can try to appease with the regional rail idea you proposed but who knows if that'll work well enough or not. 3. I live in the KC area and nearly everyone I know has some connection to Denver/Colorado and go there regularly, whether it be for work, a second home, or friends and family, or for vacations. All of those people make the drive every time instead of flying. So while air travel is the main competitor to HSR, from my experience a lot more people go between KC and Denver daily than the flights might make it appear. 4. This will be my delusional "convincing myself this should happen immediately" section so beware. Even though this line is at the very top end of distances considered for HSR, I believe this would be a good line to build sooner rather than later for a couple reasons. First, its a relatively simple route that wouldn't require a significant amount of viaducts so it wouldn't get stuck in bridge hell like CAHSR has, where for years and years the only progress is empty bridges. If it can get to track laying and testing faster, then it would be overall good for HSR in the US because it would increase the public's confidence that large HSR projects can actually get built. No shade to Brightline West but its a pretty short route compared to this and CAHSR. Additionally, it would be able to show that projects like this are feasible in "red" states like Kansas which could spur development in other "red" states like much of the South. And finally, I just want to be able to work on it and eventually ride it myself lol.
I live in Lawrence and I agree with you 100%. I think a great solution for not wanting to have as many stations would be to have a slower speed train that can use the HSR right of way and make local stops kinda similar to how Cal-Train and CAHSR will work in the Bay Area. In general though I think the KC area desperately needs a heavy rail system and I think that the system Brisbane, Australia has would be a great model to follow.
Between KC and Chicago there is alreadly a very straight shot NE alignment on trackage the Southwest Chief uses, IMO some upgrades to HSR standards there would be a better deal and lower cost for Denver travelers looking to connect to Chicago rather than running ESE to St. Louis then NNE to Chicago.
@@cattornado The idea was less about Denver to Chicago and more about St. Louis to Denver and KC to the rest of the Midwest. Denver to Chicago will probably remain dominated by air travel because of the distance. Even with HSR, it would probably be better served by a California Zephyr routing than Southwest Chief.
It still has its challenges. However, it is more flat in the regard that when you get into trouble its nowhere near like the trouble that say Brightline West faces. Example would be through the Junction City area. The grade there is 4%, but the elevation difference is only 270 feet. 50 foot viaduct on one end and 50 foot cut on the other and problem solved. Can't do that in Cajon Pass.
As someone with a lot of connections in both KC and Denver (as well as Topeka and Lawrence), I would really *like* for HSR from 303 to 816 to make sense. But until we've got other corridors actually running, such a line would need to be deprioritized. It's much more important to get lines like LA-LV up and running.
As the large Urban Centers lose value as an attraction for Citizens, the ability to develop any transportation plans that do not consume vast quantities of Fuel, are not promoted by the facilitators of Funding. The Commercial Real Estate Bust is their current issue to deal with. A Economic meltdown appears to be something that will promote transit ridership? That reduces the funds available for High Speed Facilities. But the Riders might be more willing to participate?
Honestly, I live in Colorado Springs, CO and having train between KC and Denver would be extremely useful especially for tourists and college students. I could easily see students from KU grabbing a train to Denver to catch a show at Red Rocks or visit the CO region for a weekend. The biggest issues I can see though are the winter blizzards in Kansas and the Colorado Eastern Plains… white conditions, and extremely high winds.
@@LucidStewOh?! You have my certainly intrigued what more can be done. I really appreciate your analysis and you've helped convince me that US HSR is NOT a pipedream and actually doable. Ofc, the current big projects are the first proverbial big bites of the apples, in terms of cost and potential impact... but the societal benefits could be staggering! In your opinion is that a non-point when arguing US rail infrastructure, for terms of advocacy?
@@Gnefitisis I look at it three ways. I look at it as a resident, a taxpayer, and as a user. As a resident, it would be nice to have fewer planes making noise, and electric trains are much quieter. Less overall pollution as well. Also issues of land use, which airports tend to be poor on. And better land use, which transit tends to promote. As a taxpayer I'd like projects to make sense, be inexpensive to build and inexpensive to maintain. I don't want to pay more taxes than necessary, and I prefer my taxes not going toward buying things that aren't needed or useful. As a user, I just want good options, so if its moderately competitive on time and price, that works for me. Doesn't mean I'll use it all the time, but nice to know the option is there if I want to use it.
It's a reach, but maybe America becomes HSR-crazy-like we're Hwy-crazy-and can get it done. I was really hoping the flat terrain and cheap land would reduce the cost by half (~$20 B). As it stands, it's a lot of money for a small population and despite the high average speed, it's a long way so it's not that fast time wise. Great stuff though and love the potential regional rail tie-in! Even though other countries-namely in Asia-like their HSR-only rail corridors. I think for us, we're gonna have to be more creative in how we use such infrastructure if we build it.
PLEASE do one of these down the Rockies. I’ve always wondered about Denver/Albuquerque/El Paso. Denver going south would hit a huge domestic population, but this rout is special because it could feature access for 1.6 million people in Ciudad Juarez. I would love to see something like this, even if it only ever gets to RUclips.
I'm a little less motivated to do Front Range since they're moving toward actually building conventional rail there. However, I will eventually do it for fun. I can foresee El Paso being included in a San Antonio-Phoenix video. We can look at any pair of cities, but below certain thresholds of population and distance its not worth investigation. Denver-KC was already on the extreme edge of that.
@@LucidStew I get that. Thanks for the reply. This is asking a lot to remember when you do that, but being a Las Cruces native, I would love for said San Antonio/Phoenix video to address/change that the current Amtrak route through El Paso skips us and goes straght to Deming (the audacity!) Also, if you're looking to not focus on the Front Range, maybe make it a tiny skippable portion of a North American mega line that goes from Alberta all the way down to Mexico City.
I think what holds the Midwest back in terms of growth is its lack of easy transportation to other regions. Flights are expensive and car travels takes way too long. It might help the region economically should it become more interconnected. This would be magnified by its relative low cost of living, especially if this portion were connected to a larger national grid of HSR. Howdy from Wichita btw!
I used to live in the St. Louis area and would fly back home for holidays. VERY expensive, and for regional jets with connections at either DEN or DFW. Part of the reason I was amenable to doing more HSR videos after my initial 2 about CAHSR was because on two different occasions, due to delays and other problems, HSR would have been faster even at 1800 miles. And you KNOW it would have been way more comfortable than 2X3 coach with a tiny little aisle.
A former Rock Island Line map shows a Denver - Omaha - Chicago route that may be useful for a HS Rail right-of-way. Not sure of the current status, but it went: Denver - Limon - Burlington - Goodland (in Colorado) then in Kansas: Colby - Norton - Phillipsburg - Smith Center - Mankato - Belleville, then continuing NE into Nebraska. Another former Rock Island Line route (Chicago -Tucumcari) included a Kansas City - Lawrence - Topeka - McFarland, KS segment. There was also a former CB&Q rail line connecting Denver & K.C. that was mostly routed just north of the Kansas - Nebraska border, before dipping south via Napier & St. Joseph, MO to K.C.. However, my first priority preference for new HSR would probably be L.A. - Phoenix, or "Higher speed" (< 125 Mph): Las Vegas - Phoenix.
For 550 miles of the route, there are not enough people to make it worthwhile. The important tie in would be the possibility of connecting through St. Louis to the Memphis/Nashville/Roanoke corridor and the Ohio River valley connection on the east, and connecting on the west to Salt Lake City and points west like Las Vegas, San Francisco and Seattle/Portland. When you get 300+ miles with almost no population in the segment, you are already milking the hind tit on a dry cow. St. Louis to Denver needs passenger rail, high speed or not, as does Dallas to Denver. Maybe if the freight railroads got a local tax break for running HSR on their rights of way, they would be more inclined to participate.
The Passenger traffic that requests High speed trains is not needing local trains that get in the way. If You assume the traffic that local riders would support are going to produce any profit, you are barking up the wrong sewer.
@@danielhutchinson6604 You are entirely correct. However, if there is no benefit to the locals, you are never going to get the political buy-in necessary to procure right of way, and support for the project funding will be sorely lacking.
@@oldgandy5355 The USA is now at the end of the Economic rope. The Government now is aware that they are incapable of paying the Debts that have accumulated from dominating Eastern Europe and now attempting to attack Russia. I have been working for 30 years to promote a return of the Rail Infrastructure we had. We may not get the 1920 levels of service, but something that served the Small Towns that shriveled up after the Mail was removed from the Rails in 1967. I am aware, and I have danced with some of the Gandy Shovel Company Girls before..... There are ways to convince people.
@@davidjackson7281 There are several Right of way routes that have been abandoned. The ability to upgrade them to handle some speed is not beyond the capacity of the industry. The idea of plain old passenger traffic over the freight routes are not impossible to develop more Passenger traffic. A lot of Humans are not willing to get into airplanes. Boeing seems to be attempting to scare off some of that traffic. The idea of creating Passenge traffic that is delivered to the High Speed routes, does seem to have some additional benefits.
Would it be possible to create a map of all the theoretical HSR corridors you've done videos on? I'm just curious what it would look like on a map and I feel like it would be pretty easy, since you already have them all mapped out separately and it's just combining them. I just think it would be cool to see.
I am working toward a theoretical national HSR map once I'm done with the federal HSR corridor videos. I have 2 more to go. These city pair videos will also help inform that. I'll probably get another 3 or 4 city pairs in beforehand. Part of the reason for this video was to test the plains, since the western edge coming from the east in this area seemed like Kansas City at best.
I key part of building an HSR network is the network effect - so this leg isn't as practical as others but might make more sense in a larger east/west line. Plus, if you added a few stops in Limon and Hays, and connect DIA - it would be more useful overall.
I'm biased because I used to live there and have both driven and flown between these cities. What I would say is politically, just two Kansas stops is not nearly enough even for an express. You're probably gonna have to add at least Hays (Fort Hays State U, large-ish school serving western KS+eastern CO) and Manhattan (K-State), and more likely than not add a station in Salina, even for an express. This would probably be enough to assuage political resistance especially if you added infill stops for less-express trains (like how the Shinkansen does it). But great video. Maybe some day. The other thing too is... this could be the start of a connection to Chicago via St. Louis. Go through Missouri, hit Jefferson City, St. Louis, then on up through Illinois.
@@LucidStewI did and I understand the argument I just mean if you tried to actually get the local politicos to back this they’d fight for their cities to have stops. But I totally get why you did what you did and it’s completely valid. Diesel electric branch and locals are fine but I still think folks will feel left out
@@0xEA61E But they do get stops. For the small towns the stations on the trunk would be in bad locations. On a secondary regional, the locations would be good, and they'd still use portions of the trunk.
I have driven this route way too many times. "Lew-Stew", I don't know how you come up with these, but man, you are definitely a person someone should take note of. Spot on with your suggestions, and like someone said below, what if you could continue this route to St. Louis?
I've driven it a couple times myself. I used to live in the STL area and will eventually be doing STL-KC as well as STL-Chicago. There are a lot of Chicago Hub Network pairs to cover, but I want to space them out a little.
@@LucidStew It's good to see another ex-Show-Me Stater. I grew up in Sedalia and was used to the M-K-T and MO-Pac trains on a regular. Will be looking for your next video, and yes i am a subscriber. Wishing you green signals on the "High Iron."
I would like to see Salt Lake City to Las Vegas. If it would connect with Brightline, you could include Los Angeles* as a destination too. I know the route would be difficult because of the terrain, especially areas like the Virgin River Gorge, but it would still be interesting. Speaking of the gorge, would it be better to bypass it through the still difficult, but probably better old highway 91? According to Google Maps, highway 91 adds 24 minutes and 10 miles to a car journey versus Interstate 15 through the gorge. If the gorge is chosen, I would assume blasting would be the way forward. I think that's what they had to do for the 15.
If you're looking at a national HSR network this would be the better route to connect the eastern & western sides of the network across the Great Plains.
@@nathanbrandli6827, yes. The current primary routes across the Great Plains connect the Twin Cities & Montana, Omaha and Denver, KC & Albuquerque, and San Antonio & El Paso. These largely follow older 19th century routes. The centers of population have grown differently in this region than was anticipated. I think Amtrak’s proposed routes are sound, yet they are missing a strong link between KC & Denver which are closer together than most other major cities in this region. I connect it in part to of Kansas lacking a strong state passenger rail plan.
I'd love to see this happen as a Denverite (we're very isolated here :/) but realistically there's plenty of other HSR lines that should be prioritized since they serve way more people. Denver is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. That being said, we are growing quite a bit so maybe something like this will become more realistic in the future.
Also being from Denver, I've heard it said that we are the largest metro area 500+ miles away from another major city, excluding SLC which is only about 1.2 million, but is under 400 straight line miles. Many people here are concerned with a 'low' population base for this route, but perhaps the distance between the two cities is the greater hindrance at approximately 600 miles. For HSR to work it needs to compete with air travel, so connections between cities need to be 600 or fewer miles apart without stops in between.
Honestly, I can see the main HSR station in Denver being at the airport as it has a second set of unused platforms there. The platforms at Union station are already pretty congested with local trains and standard Amtrack rail.
To me, this assists in KDEN (DIA to locals) being an even more likely international/long distance air hub as major HSR routes can have the main Denver stop there.
Perfect, I wish you could add a station near Lawrence development at the KU campus as well as adding another station in Manhattan the home of the KSU Wildcats.
IF we spent the time and money developing HSR the way we developed the Interstate Highway system, then YES, it would be no different than the money we spent to construct I-70 between those same two cities. And wow would it be FAST. However, we need HSR in so many other places, this would be one of the last to get it in the grand scheme of things. But I enjoyed the video, I always enjoy all your videos. Thank you!
As someone in western kansas, the SW Cheif is the only thing we have and i would LOVE to have some more public options for inter-town transit. Sadly it will probably never happen in my lifetime. However, Even tho it might not be even as feasible as this, I feel a Whichita to Kansas City or even a Whichita to Denver line could prove useful as well. Given part of the latter would be able to share trackage rights with the SW Cheif and going through less populated areas so fewer slowdown areas.
the cost is worth it, there's gonna be a base cost of any new hsr line with acquiring row and laying track and at least some bridges and probably new station infrastructure, and this is probably one of the closest per mile costs to the base bc nearly all of it is at-grade and in the freeway row
You could also add another possibilities such as Phoenix to El Paso; Fort Worth to Oklahoma City/Wichita; Las Vegas to Santa Fe via 4 Corners; El Paso to San Antonio; Dallas to Little Rock etc.
Most of those sound likely at some point. In particular I'm interested in the validity of something like an HSR transcon. Looks like the only possible one is San Antonio to Phoenix via El Paso. I think it's fairly well established that a set of regional systems makes sense on some level, so the more interesting question in my mind is if it makes sense to connect them to each other.
By the time this train route through the high plains is complete it will mostly be powered by wind energy. Therefore, I propose calling it the Amtrak High Wind.
I bet it would be an interesting route. You might want to think about a Kansas City to St Louis route. Maybe have some regional feeders Kansas City to omaha. You want to have a high-speed rail from Kansas City to chicago. Some feeder service from Kansas City down to Tulsa oklahoma. Maybe have Lincoln Nebraska figure into that somehow. You know once you start feeding it it might work itself out
A whole bunch of individual initiatives like this could quite easily be knitted together into a future High Speed Transcon - at that point, it'd be worth running nonstop end-to-end services on sectors like this - I'd guess those would be closer to an even 3hrs or even lower \m/
Hmmm. Some one needs to hire this man. Imagine what he could do from inside Amtrak or the FRA. In more serious terms, this would be best as part of a larger network of hsr, by itself it isn't worth it, at least not right now.
One good thing about thie route is that this respects the actual travel that people do. The only other travel folks do in the area is to Wichita, which i get is way too far south
I think it makes sense *once* other links (like Kansas City - St. Louis, Kansas City - Oklahoma City, maybe Kansas City - Omaha, etc) get built. It would be a good way to connect up a regional network, the only other routing I really see being El Paso - Dallas which is also pretty questionable
While doing research for a RUclips video of my own, I looked at the corridor between Denver and Kansas City. High speed rail could be interesting, but I think we should get intermediate speed rail on the corridor first, at least from KC to Hays, and possibly to Denver. You have large universities with built-in demand because college students are less likely to own cars than most other populations (Kansas State and Fort Hays State), as well as some smaller cities that would otherwise not get any service at all like Salina and Junction City.
Other than fun, the main drive for looking at the idea is pace. Since it's going to take many decades and many billions to get to 110mph, the idea is why not just leap-frog that? Of course politics is an issue, but given the time scale we're talking about, dreaming a little doesn't hurt.
12:11 lol I just got back from a Nebraska Furniture Mart and it obviously sells furniture and offers interior design but it also sells gaming computers, toys like Lego and hot wheels (pretty good deals too I might add), kitchen aid appliances, electric bikes, etc. Think of this like a Furniture Store meets Best Buy meets a Homegoods store. 100% reccomend if you can go to one. Most of the building is a warehouse that you can't access but the inside portion you can access is bigger than any Furniture store I know of
Dude, sounds awesome. We used to have something similar to that called Fry's. More centered on electronics, but they kind of sold everything, too. Each one had a different themed, too. Like space or steampunk or medieval. It was great. One of those place where you go to window shop from the inside.
I think it's worth it, especially as part of a mid-to-late stage in a national buildout of highspeed rail. If you could continue to Chicago or further East via an existing high speed rail network I think this project easily becomes a no brainer. Continuing West will be a trickier situation...
The interesting thing about this video is that it shows a couple of things: 1. Travel time, not distance, is the real measurement of the HSR sweet spot. Even though 500 mi is a long distance, the fact there's fuck-all damn near the entire length keeps speeds up and travel time down quite a shocking amount compared to many other city pair corridors. 2. While city pairs are popular in American transportation planning, this corridor pushes the philosophy to its absolute limit. City pairs are useful for aviation planning, because the costs of taking off and landing are so high that it makes sense to minimize them via point-to-point travel (something Southwest has historically been very successful at). I wanted to find out how much ridership this corridor was likely to have, and so I plugged it into a Northeast-trained ridership model I've been working on. Even in the most wildly optimistic scenario of HSR capturing *half* of the corridor's demand space, I only found it achieving 16,000 riders a day. Much more likely would it being on an even footing with the airlines, about 3,000 riders a day, capturing 10% of ridership demand. The problem here is that, compared to a plane, the stopping penalty for rail--even high-speed rail--is trivial, as long as it is constrained to one stop per metropolitan area or so, which means that the larger a network a given corridor is embedded in, ceterus paribus, the more ridership it is likely to generate. In particular--and this is my guess, since I didn't want to spend another hour remodeling the system to account for the larger network--Denver-KC HSR will only be viable with a fully built out, fast Chicago-St. Louis-KC HSR line and a Front Range corridor to act as a collector/distributor for various trips to and from the Midwest. Even then, even with how fast your proposed line is, I think it'll be important to bring the linespeed up to 350 kph or so to reduce travel time such that the Front Range spokes sit at the edge of the HSR sweet spot relative to Chicago.
This would be fantastic. Getting across that High Plains empty(ish) quarter is the hard thing though. Network effects would help, but from the perspective of a network, would it be better to cross the desert elsewhere? E.g. along the S. Platte/Platte Rivers like the Zephyr partially does. That leads me to wonder if the leading alternative to this project is speeding up the Zephyr between Denver and Omaha while connecting Omaha to KC. Then connect KC to OKC via the Heartland Flyer while you’re at it. Basically, use N-S rail (maybe HSR is viable?) to knit together the wet eastern border of the desert like the Front Range Rail would knit together the western end. Then speed up the existing river-tracing E-W lines like the Zephyr and the Chief.
@LucidStew - this would be a great series if you look at what people perceive to be "marginal" connections to existing proposals or likely good extensions of existing or proposed lines and crunched the numbers a bit to see what is actually feasible or not. For example: Portland to Eugene? Sacramento to Chico & Redding? Fort Collins to Cheyenne and maybe Rapid City? Chicago - Cedar Rapids - Des Moines - Omaha? DFW/Texas HSR extension to OKC? Cascadia HSR to Bend, Yakima, Spokane? Memphis - Nashville - Chattanooga - Knoxville all connecting to ATL somehow? Flagstaff - Phoenix - Tucson - Nogales And so on...?
We're looking at a situation where it's going to be 4-8 years before either CAHSR or BLW are carrying passengers. At a pace of roughly 3 videos a month, there are going to be a LOT of looks at iffy ideas. I'm willing to look at fringe ideas, but it will need to be anchored by two major metros unless its completely tongue in cheek, like Lincoln, NE to Omaha.
Looking forward to your southeast corridor video. DFW to Little Rock amtrak service is awful. Scheduled run time is something like 10 hrs. It's a 5.5 hr drive... Little Rock won't even be the largest metro area in Arkansas anymore, Northwest Arkansas is taking that title. Our airport has a decent amount of connections but plenty of people still drive to Tulsa for additional connections. Tulsa having HSR connection would make me more interested in using HSR to get to Dallas vs. flying. It's hard to beat total flight ET but the flying experience has gotten so poor over the last 5 years that I'm looking for any alternatives.
Once I get this South Central HSR Corridor video done, it's going to unlock some good city pairs. I'm not sure if I'll do Dallas-Denver direct, but probably Dallas-OKC, and then OKC-KC. or something like Front Range HSR, and then Dallas to Pueblo via OKC. It's about 700 miles, so you need quite a few stops to make it work. That was one of the issues with this one.
I’ll take highway medians & R.O.W. to make it financially viable, but the best views are away from the interstate, which may not seem like much as they’re plains, but each has their intrinsic beauty. I wonder how reasonable a route shared with the CA Zephyr east of Denver to mid Nebraska before going SE to KC, picking up the secondary stops would be. Could make the CA Zephyr HSR more feasible without sacrificing a new connection with Denver.
Nebraska Furniture Mart has a really sizable area of computers and appliances and non-furniture items. It really is several stores in one. The larger Legends area is quite impressive with the KS Speedway, Children’s Mercy Park, the casino, and Legends Field all there. If the area were to get a regional rail network (I’ve only heard of this possibly, one day happening in the Missouri side of the Metro since KCMO got World Cup games and they then woke up the next morning and realized how terrible the transit is in the area and how monumental an effort it will be to get people from where most of the hotels are to Truman Sports Complex) then this would be a great area for a stop. I like the idea of Denver to KC rail because it can be a great part of a larger national HSR network, especially since KC is already connected to St. Louis and Chicago. But I think KC needs to be in the next video. IIRC, Kansas officials have been working with Amtrak (and OK) to get Wichita and Newton (and possibly KC) connected in an extension of the Heartland Flyer. If there’s going to be HSR all the way to OKC/Tulsa, why not connect it all the way to Kansas City? I’d be really interested in how you’d use I-35 in Kansas and Missouri to accomplish this.
OKC-KC or OKC-STL are both definitely on the list. I would guess off-hand there are probably at least 50 of these city pair videos worth doing over all. I'll try to cover as many as possible without getting silly. Denver-KC was kind of on the low end. While I wouldn't chose to build it myself, I still found it interesting and surprising that it was reasonably competitive with flying, given the distance. The real problem is demand, imo. That's kind of the idea of the series, though, to flesh these out and see if they make any sense.
Ha! My company usually books rooms at Crowne Center for corporate events; it really is like an island from the rest of downtown KC that could benefit from a subway/rail system. I hate flying, so I wish this was an actual thing.
While we're talking about some less popular corridors, I'd really love your thoughts/proposed route for Alberta's high speed rail between Calgary and Edmonton. It might help us build momentum as the province is exploring passenger rail with a Calgary Grand Central Station adjacent to a new 4 St SE Green Line LRT station. CPKC's ROW is pretty good most of the way, except it gets complicated near Red Deer, of which I'd probably put a station at the southern end of Red Deer, near either the college or Westerner Park (exhibition/rodeo grounds) and then follow Highway 2 until the north end of Red Deer (near Blackfalds) where you can reconnect to the CPKC ROW.
I really like this because you can have Shinkansen style multiple layer of Super Expresses, Express, Local Express trains and interweaving meaning you can stuff through a lot more trains. The utility would be generally even better if Kansan City had corridor on its way to Chicago. Also fuck $45B is cheap af, just build this instead of ordering two F-35s.
This would definitely work. The thing about the midwest is that most neighboring cities are 4+ hours away if you drive and usually the only alternative is to fly. Furthermore, flying is often far more expensive than it would be to just drive it and that's without factoring the need to rent a car upon arrival in most midwest cities due to a lack of good public transportation, the additional cost of flying a family, and the limits that places on what you can take with you. So for those reasons when most midwest families go on a trip they pack up the car and drive and we often do not bat an eye at driving 8+ hours in a single day. The Gulf, East, or West Coast, Florida, the Rockies, it doesn't matter. Driving is often choice number one for most people to save money. However, just because we are willing to spend so long driving to save a buck doesn't mean we don't wish for better options. If something cheaper and affordable came along that would also save us time and allow us to take most of the things we need for our trip all at little to no extra cost came along, well then people around here could definitely be swayed. As an advocate for public transportation and high speed rail I know this would work and meet all of those needs. I cannot count the number of times I've heard people say they wished there was a high speed train connecting A to B, but since it doesn't exist they drive instead. So this on it's own would almost certainly work, especially with the regional stops. However, if it were also linked to St. Louis and elsewhere as well as part of a national network, the I guarantee you it would succeed. You would have people taking this line all the way from Indianapolis, Columbus, or Louisville so there's no doubt in my mind that it would be worth it.
i would argue it is worth the cost: Before the inevitable explosion of HSR in north america over the next 50 years, it would help to have some initial projects with low cost/mile to practice and learn on, and for the market to observe and develop technilogies for. This in conjuction with LA-PHX would be a testing ground for policies and procedures, the AZ one would cover building HSR in the desert, and the Denver-KCMO line would inform any other HSR projects built in the Plains or midwest. one extra point High Plains has in its favor is serving 3 states instead of just 2, meaning a couple extra senators and reps who could advocate for it and HSR in general in Washington.
It’s a good route, just very little demand which makes it unlikely to ever be built. Denver is just way too remote to be economically connected to a HSR network
Yeah, why not, even though, just looking at the map, it seems like the middle part, prolonging it in the east to St. Louis and in the west to Salt Lake City (Now here , I would say, begins the most costly part...but just thinking about it...Winnemucca-Reno-Sacramento, where you're connected to this California High Speed), might not be that wrong...so, even Los Angeles would be reachable by train in somewhat, don't know,12 hours?
I can see this route maybe, MAYBE, making sense once both the Front Range and the Midwest regional networks are complete. It should be built with the feds picking up the whole bill, and serve as the rail equivalent of a worm hole, feeding trains in from one region and spitting them out into the other as fast as the technology will allow. I had looked at the possibility of a route like this before, mostly using the right-of-way of the Kyle Railroad, which, I believe is the route of the old Rock Island Line that was used for the Rocky Mountain Rocket.. The line split at Limon; one line to Denver, the other to Colorado Springs. Do you also envision the possibility of also running trains from Omaha into this route, the way the Rock Island fed trains from Omaha and connecting to this HSR line somewhere near Belleville?
It certainly wouldn't be one of the first additions to a new nationwide HSR network, but maybe later on. Is it possible to make it any faster without blowing out cost wise?
I watched this yesterday, and while I’m as much of an advocate for passenger service as you’ll find, this simply is not based in reality. If anything, what’s possible is a state(s)-sponsored train on a route like you’re talking about that runs on an upgraded KP. If/when the US goes HSR-crazy we can consider this route, but in the interim, I’d love to simply have AN option, and one that serves Ft. Riley, Junction City, Abilene, Hays, etc., that can garner political support from the leaders along the way in the process.
In reality, I know it isn’t practical, but as someone who just drove that two days ago and it took eight hours, I would love to have it.
Done it a couple times myself. Definitely one of those drives where a coffee or two comes in handy.
Sounds fairly practical to me with a price tag of less than $43 billion!
Even as an HSR nut, it is hard to justify this one.
Even if it capture all of the air passengers, plus an equal amount of road passengers, and they all paid $100 a trip, then over a 10 year period you'd raise $3 billion in fares.
never thought I would see the day Kansas City would be represented in a hsr video, so thank you so much
Extend it to STL Lucid
Same with Denver!
Seconded. @@themidweekfixture5059
It would also be worthwhile building a new connection in Missouri off the Burlington line up past the airport and using the old 90 MPH Kansas City, Clay County, and St. Joseph Railway interurban routing up past the large airport mentioned here at Ferrelview. It would also be worth extending the Streetcar line parallel as far as that airport. As some of you may know, Kansas City also a downtown airport that pilots hate due to the steep flight approaches to it.
I think this is a line that would only work as part of a national network not in isolation. That way it could be used as a night train destination which could be a popular thing for tourism would give an extra 8 or 10 hours of travel.
I agree. I think the situation will also change in the future. Both metros are growing steadily. Colorado front range is growing steadily. Could be a different demographic situation in 30 years time when a couple more million people are involved or perhaps if Front Range Passenger Rail is in place.
@@LucidStew l love how you love hsr but this is a case for cheaper higher speed diesel rail averaging 85 mph.
Agreed, though I keep thinking about the potential if KC ever gets more major sports teams, say like a NBA team. The diehard fans of each sport more than likely would opt to use it to travel for big rivalry games between the two cities and back again. They in theory could do it all as a day trip, or even less than a full day, too. a average of a 9-10 hour day for them. A cool, relatively viable experience to say the least.
@@davidjackson7281 this area is the best use case for the highest speed rail because of the flat terrain between the two citiy area.
@@fasdaVT Not enough demand from population density.
Seems like a good route. I also like your suggestions as to how to make the route useful for regional services as well. As for suggestions, it might be nice to see how you would extend this line to St Louis, as that is another major destination within reasonable rail distance, and the existing service is far too slow.
How slow is too slow?
How many Stations are served?
@@danielhutchinson6604 From KC to StL, it's 9 stops total, with a runtime of 5 hrs 40 min, no delays. For reference, the car route from station to station is about 4 hrs.
Looking at HSR, I'd almost try and put it in the I70 right of way, which would change the route alot, but likely speed it up.
@@Trigm The Front Range might disagree?
I have been over that trail many times.
The Union Pacific went across Wyoming for a reason.
The Cowboy line across Nebraska and over South Pass appears to be a more reasonable route to get to Utah.
The route from Chicago through northern Iowa seems to be more favorable for promoting fast traffic.
I believe your cost estimates are a bit optimistic.....
But the ability to promote Passenger Traffic on the ground is gaining support.
@@danielhutchinson6604 I think you replied to the wrong person?
@@Trigm Sorry it looked like you were discussing Salt Lake City.
That I-70 route is not a high speed area.
Forgive my failing eyesight?
As seemingly the only person in Kansas City who loves HSR, you made this specifically for me, whether you knew it or not. Thank you so much I loved every second.
Nebraska Furniture Mart is literally a giant furniture and appliance store. Honestly, it's pretty sweet. I've bought most of my furniture there, because you can get a lot of it with 0% interest for anywhere from 6-36 months. The whole development, including the Kansas Speedway and other attractions, is called The Legends. Kansas issues special development incentives called STAR Bonds for major attractions, and this is probably the largest example of a project built with STAR Bonds. Fun fact for roadgeeks: The first Buc-ee's in Kansas will be built soon at I-70 and Village West Parkway, just west of I-435!
oh....my....god.....
@@LucidStewThe Nebraska Furniture Mart in Omaha is sick af they got everything there fr
@@mintberrycrunch1752 Wish I would have known about this place when I lived in STL. I would have made the drive.
@@LucidStew It's an amazing story, featuring Belorussian immigrant Rose Blumkin (Mrs. B) who founded it in Omaha in 1937. She sold it in 1983 to Warren Buffett in a handshake deal worth $60 million. She kept working at the store until her death at 102.
Currently in my house I have two beds and a couch from NFM.
The KC lightrail project was abandoned in 2008. There are still rumblings about trying to build a true light rail system, but there's nothing other than extensions to the streetcar in the works at the moment.
If the High Voltage Power lines are a part of the plan,
the idea could be economical.
You do need some imagination......
Stop building streetcars
I’d take that over BRT
@@qjtvaddict Stop building cars that need roads, that need Oil based products to continue to support the Investors in Fossil Fuel industries.
The demise of the United States was hastened by the removal of the Mail from the rails.
That happened as Muscle Cars appeared on Small Town Streets.
Now the Small Towns are gone.
@@danielhutchinson6604 The sky is falling.
Arrived here via Greater Denver Transit. Damn, this is a lot of effort to map this all out; nice production 👍
Amazing video! Glad to see Denver featured in one of your videos!
Nice! As a KC native, it saddens me a bit when you realize just how little traffic there is across the plains, though the idea of the getting to Denver in 3.5! hours is *really* attractive.
Another really interesting route in the area I'd love to see is a continuation from KC on to Chicago, esp given the possibility of a stop in St. Louis (smth I think Amtrack fails at with it's current route setup)
Yeah, I used to live in the STL area and a friend of mine lives in the Denver area, so I've driven that in a day a couple of times. Its definitely a long, lonely drive. BUT, these ARE growth areas, so I don't think the situation between the two areas is static. Especially with the west filling up and becoming unaffordable, people are going to continue migrating back toward the Midwest where they can actually afford a place to call their own.
Really interesting concept but yeah it definitely would not be a priority, like you said I imagine a lot of the air traffic demand is connecting flight which makes me even more doubtful. Still really cool especially with such high speeds being achievable!
Have read it’s about 40% of flights into Denver are connecting flights so that does drop the number quite a bit.
Agreed, and if other lines are built and shown to be successful, the will to invest could rise. Plus the network effects created when/if the Front Range line gets built, etc. Not a priority, but it'd be smart to start putting in safeguards from likely sections of the needed right of way getting built on in the mean time.
Imagine if at Denver, there is another high speed line south, to Albequeque, then to Deming, then to Phoenix-Tuscon.
I was just in Denver for a convention downtown. The A-Line was fantastic. About a 35 minute ride. Every 15 minutes. On the airport end it drops you right at the security gates. If you are pre-checked in, a shorter distance then from a car drop off. On the downtown it is about one mile to the convention center. Many of the restaurants are between the convention center and Union Station so you end up walking half back every evening for dinner. Nicely done Denver.
This line would get way more ridership if it could be extended up into the ski areas like near Breckinridge. 14 million ski visitors to Colorado last year and if they didn’t have to get out at the Denver airport and drive another 2 hours up would be huge. That 2-3 hr saving would justify taking HSR from St Louis and probably even Chicago to go skiing. Would be make a great future video.
The cost to do anything like HSR would be astronomical. It would require tunnels that would make the Eisenhower tunnel on I-70 look like child's play and the Glenwood Canyon I-70 construction seem trivial. There has been talk of some kind of "rail" service in the I-70 median (where there is one) for years simply to increase the capacity of the corridor, not go faster. I lived in Colorado for 41 years and made maybe 200 trips from Denver to Grand Junction (and back) and I can't see HSR in the mountains unless you have truly unlimited resources (time, money, labor).
@@kenglover2690 I’m sure it would be pricey but if it draws even half of the ski visitors at a similar price to an airline ticket that’s 7 million x $200 so $1.4 billion yearly revenue just from those passengers. Could payoff a pretty big loan with that.
It's funny, I actually saw a study of I-70 rapid transit arguing that medium-speed *maglev* would be the cheaper technology than HSR because it can handle 10% grades (no wheels to lose traction) and the increased tilt through curves allows higher speeds without tunneling.
Of course, we're not building that either, but it illustrates how bad the terrain is for HSR.
@@kenglover2690you need to tunnel regardless of mode 😅
@@morat242BINGO
Nebraska Furniture mart is basically a massive furniture store with literally anything you can think of. It's honestly a blast
It isn't just the current population served or current point to point demand, it is also the value of future development along the route, provided by efficient transportation. If you build it, they will come, more or less.
Interesting idea, but money would be better spent on other projects already highlighted on this channel. Houston-Dallas would serve many more riders
Love the video. I started working on a similar route in NIMBY rails, and got to Topeka. I think staying on the slower speed near Junction City and heading north into Manhattan is worth the detour for KSU. This also means as well that you would come into Topeka from the north, where UP has a very straight alignment. The existing amtrak station could certianly still be reached, however theres a beautiful historic rail station on the north side of the river, called the Great Overland Station. Theres pics on google maps and its lovely. Then from there to Lawrence you can continue on the same line past Perry. Again in Lawrence theres an old UP depot station that could be brought back into use.
Of all of the places outside of the Northeast and Chicago, Denver is the ONE city that has electrified commuter rail (until CalTrain EMUs start running later this year)
Have they already tested one in California.
I saw some pictures.
I've got two questions for you, Stew.
First, could you do Chicago to Minneapolis/Saint Paul? I'm from the Twin Cities, and it'd be interesting to see how our only realistic HSR line would turn out (I guess Kansas City and St. Louis are also possibilities, but Chicago is the only one I could see happening in the foreseeable future).
Second, have you considered doing routes outside of the U.S.? Lines like Toronto-Montreal, Calgary-Edmonton and Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane would be interesting videos.
Yeah, I'll do Chicago-Minn/St. Paul eventually. I'm giving the region some space after my Chicago-Milwaukee video tanked. While I'm dedicated to the idea, I also have to maintain some viable channel momentum. The less popular ideas will probably be sprinkled in among more popular ones. I'm not saying Chicago-Minn/St. Paul WILL do badly, but I have that fear now.
I'm going to cover Detroit to Montreal at some point as it theoretically connects 3 U.S. HSR corridors. Being that this is a U.S.-aimed channel I do not have plans to branch out globally, but I may be able to be persuaded to do international render videos that are light on research, at some point. Part of that would be determined by how good the Google Maps data is in certain areas. Like with this video, the middle part is all 3d terrain-only(no 3d building data), hence no renders for those areas. I'd look for something like that more next year, if its going to happen.
@@LucidStew when you do that Min-Chi vid should def include the Mayo Clinic and the Wisconsin Dells as stops. Rochester is only 120k but serves at least twice that many patients plus their families every year and Dells is tiny but gets 4-5 million visitors per year.
@@HawkFan6789I’d be curious how a route would catch both & be viable!
@@LucidStew I wonder if a new catchier title and/or thumbnail could help the Chicago-Milwaukee video. I have been following you for a while, and I live near Chicago, but I was not suggested that video and was not aware of it. Just went and watched it now.
@@bunchifybunch I've no idea. I gave up on trying to figure out how RUclips works a while back. :) Some of it has to do with momentum. Some of it supposedly has to do with what you're watching at the time. Some of it has to do with what's going on in the world and what people are searching for. There are a lot of factors. Some videos don't do well, some do. L.A.-Phoenix for instance, I was expecting about half as many views. 🤷
This is a very interesting idea
I would love to see a Minneapolis/St Paul video at some point! I may be biased but MSP to Omaha and Kansas City would be sick
CNW had a train running to Souix City from Minneapolis at one time.
That is one of UP's big connecting routes to Wisconsin.
But there is not so much traffic.
They did do a lot of upgrades on the line after a few wrecks.
Speaking of the Front Range Rail project, I'd be interested in seeing a video about that!
Great video, I was very excited when you announced it and you delivered. A few notes from me:
1. A line like this would eventually need to be extended to St. Louis to get connected to the broader Chicago network (bypassing River Runner) so it might make sense to tunnel under KC Union Station, instead of using freight RoW, to allow for express service to St. Louis without having to slow in KC. The same could be said for Topeka about tunneling since the station would already need a lot of work so you might want to just build a new station in a better location anyway and allow for high-speed express service but obviously, that would balloon the cost for a not huge city so it's pretty iffy.
2. As someone else has pointed out, Kansas politics is dominated by the rural central and western areas so, in my mind, a line like this would go one of two ways. Either none of those areas want anything to do with it so it'd be hard to get any state funding for, or every mayor and their mom wants a station put in their town to boost economic development so you end up having higher costs from the increased amount of stations. In both scenarios you can try to appease with the regional rail idea you proposed but who knows if that'll work well enough or not.
3. I live in the KC area and nearly everyone I know has some connection to Denver/Colorado and go there regularly, whether it be for work, a second home, or friends and family, or for vacations. All of those people make the drive every time instead of flying. So while air travel is the main competitor to HSR, from my experience a lot more people go between KC and Denver daily than the flights might make it appear.
4. This will be my delusional "convincing myself this should happen immediately" section so beware. Even though this line is at the very top end of distances considered for HSR, I believe this would be a good line to build sooner rather than later for a couple reasons. First, its a relatively simple route that wouldn't require a significant amount of viaducts so it wouldn't get stuck in bridge hell like CAHSR has, where for years and years the only progress is empty bridges. If it can get to track laying and testing faster, then it would be overall good for HSR in the US because it would increase the public's confidence that large HSR projects can actually get built. No shade to Brightline West but its a pretty short route compared to this and CAHSR. Additionally, it would be able to show that projects like this are feasible in "red" states like Kansas which could spur development in other "red" states like much of the South. And finally, I just want to be able to work on it and eventually ride it myself lol.
I live in Lawrence and I agree with you 100%. I think a great solution for not wanting to have as many stations would be to have a slower speed train that can use the HSR right of way and make local stops kinda similar to how Cal-Train and CAHSR will work in the Bay Area. In general though I think the KC area desperately needs a heavy rail system and I think that the system Brisbane, Australia has would be a great model to follow.
Between KC and Chicago there is alreadly a very straight shot NE alignment on trackage the Southwest Chief uses, IMO some upgrades to HSR standards there would be a better deal and lower cost for Denver travelers looking to connect to Chicago rather than running ESE to St. Louis then NNE to Chicago.
@@cattornado The idea was less about Denver to Chicago and more about St. Louis to Denver and KC to the rest of the Midwest. Denver to Chicago will probably remain dominated by air travel because of the distance. Even with HSR, it would probably be better served by a California Zephyr routing than Southwest Chief.
I feel like this is one of the high-speed rail routes in America that should be the easiest ones to do, because it’s all flat basically
It still has its challenges. However, it is more flat in the regard that when you get into trouble its nowhere near like the trouble that say Brightline West faces. Example would be through the Junction City area. The grade there is 4%, but the elevation difference is only 270 feet. 50 foot viaduct on one end and 50 foot cut on the other and problem solved. Can't do that in Cajon Pass.
@@LucidStew Oh Yeah of course, there will still be some challenges regardless
@@LucidStew Kansas and Nebraska do have a reputation for being Flat.
Ask any Custom Cutter.
But there are a few hills and valleys.
@@danielhutchinson6604 northeast Kansas is most definitely not flat. I've been there several times to visit family.
@@ChrisJones-gx7fc Try hauling Grain from Fields to Elevators with a 5X4 transmission.
0:46 I can see my apartment!
We could definitely use some intercity rail service here
As someone with a lot of connections in both KC and Denver (as well as Topeka and Lawrence), I would really *like* for HSR from 303 to 816 to make sense. But until we've got other corridors actually running, such a line would need to be deprioritized. It's much more important to get lines like LA-LV up and running.
As the large Urban Centers lose value as an attraction for Citizens, the ability to develop any transportation plans that do not consume vast quantities of Fuel, are not promoted by the facilitators of Funding.
The Commercial Real Estate Bust is their current issue to deal with.
A Economic meltdown appears to be something that will promote transit ridership?
That reduces the funds available for High Speed Facilities.
But the Riders might be more willing to participate?
I suspect it would also form part of a longer journey onto St. Louis and Chicago.
Gotta think of it as part of a bigger picture, the main E-W HSR line across the country
Honestly, I live in Colorado Springs, CO and having train between KC and Denver would be extremely useful especially for tourists and college students. I could easily see students from KU grabbing a train to Denver to catch a show at Red Rocks or visit the CO region for a weekend.
The biggest issues I can see though are the winter blizzards in Kansas and the Colorado Eastern Plains… white conditions, and extremely high winds.
Stew, at this point your videos cover the whole US and most every US megapolis. Amazing. You are the boss!
There are still lots of city pairs to go, but most of this is in aid of an eventual national HSR video.
@@LucidStewOh?! You have my certainly intrigued what more can be done. I really appreciate your analysis and you've helped convince me that US HSR is NOT a pipedream and actually doable. Ofc, the current big projects are the first proverbial big bites of the apples, in terms of cost and potential impact... but the societal benefits could be staggering! In your opinion is that a non-point when arguing US rail infrastructure, for terms of advocacy?
@@Gnefitisis I look at it three ways. I look at it as a resident, a taxpayer, and as a user.
As a resident, it would be nice to have fewer planes making noise, and electric trains are much quieter. Less overall pollution as well. Also issues of land use, which airports tend to be poor on. And better land use, which transit tends to promote.
As a taxpayer I'd like projects to make sense, be inexpensive to build and inexpensive to maintain. I don't want to pay more taxes than necessary, and I prefer my taxes not going toward buying things that aren't needed or useful.
As a user, I just want good options, so if its moderately competitive on time and price, that works for me. Doesn't mean I'll use it all the time, but nice to know the option is there if I want to use it.
It's a reach, but maybe America becomes HSR-crazy-like we're Hwy-crazy-and can get it done. I was really hoping the flat terrain and cheap land would reduce the cost by half (~$20 B). As it stands, it's a lot of money for a small population and despite the high average speed, it's a long way so it's not that fast time wise.
Great stuff though and love the potential regional rail tie-in! Even though other countries-namely in Asia-like their HSR-only rail corridors. I think for us, we're gonna have to be more creative in how we use such infrastructure if we build it.
Great video! As a Denver resident I would love to see this constructed. Would love to see a video on extended CO front range rail from MT to NM!
I'm still thinking about how I want to do that video. Might do Pueblo-Fort Collins, but I might also sneak Cheyenne in there.
My original thought was Cheyenne to El Paso, TX. Didn't think about adding MT.
I’ve always dreamt of a St. Louis-Kansas City -> Denver HSR line.
When I lived out in boulder I would have done this a few times. I had events I wanted to go to Kansas City and I drove and it always took so long
PLEASE do one of these down the Rockies. I’ve always wondered about Denver/Albuquerque/El Paso.
Denver going south would hit a huge domestic population, but this rout is special because it could feature access for 1.6 million people in Ciudad Juarez.
I would love to see something like this, even if it only ever gets to RUclips.
I'm a little less motivated to do Front Range since they're moving toward actually building conventional rail there. However, I will eventually do it for fun. I can foresee El Paso being included in a San Antonio-Phoenix video. We can look at any pair of cities, but below certain thresholds of population and distance its not worth investigation. Denver-KC was already on the extreme edge of that.
@@LucidStew I get that. Thanks for the reply. This is asking a lot to remember when you do that, but being a Las Cruces native, I would love for said San Antonio/Phoenix video to address/change that the current Amtrak route through El Paso skips us and goes straght to Deming (the audacity!) Also, if you're looking to not focus on the Front Range, maybe make it a tiny skippable portion of a North American mega line that goes from Alberta all the way down to Mexico City.
If this was actually built, most of its ridership would be new demand induced by putting Denver and Kansas City within day trip distance.
I'd be down for a regional service that has a stop at Kansas Speedway. Maybe it'd have increased services whenever a race happens.
Plus weekly trips to Outdoor World and Nebraska Furniture Mart.
I think what holds the Midwest back in terms of growth is its lack of easy transportation to other regions. Flights are expensive and car travels takes way too long. It might help the region economically should it become more interconnected. This would be magnified by its relative low cost of living, especially if this portion were connected to a larger national grid of HSR. Howdy from Wichita btw!
I used to live in the St. Louis area and would fly back home for holidays. VERY expensive, and for regional jets with connections at either DEN or DFW. Part of the reason I was amenable to doing more HSR videos after my initial 2 about CAHSR was because on two different occasions, due to delays and other problems, HSR would have been faster even at 1800 miles. And you KNOW it would have been way more comfortable than 2X3 coach with a tiny little aisle.
Real ones remember that bass pro shops outdoor world used to be a Cabela's with a restaurant where you could get elk burgers
A former Rock Island Line map shows a Denver - Omaha - Chicago route that may be useful for a HS Rail right-of-way. Not sure of the current status, but it went: Denver - Limon - Burlington - Goodland (in Colorado) then in Kansas: Colby - Norton - Phillipsburg - Smith Center - Mankato - Belleville, then continuing NE into Nebraska. Another former Rock Island Line route (Chicago -Tucumcari) included a Kansas City - Lawrence - Topeka - McFarland, KS segment. There was also a former CB&Q rail line connecting Denver & K.C. that was mostly routed just north of the Kansas - Nebraska border, before dipping south via Napier & St. Joseph, MO to K.C..
However, my first priority preference for new HSR would probably be L.A. - Phoenix, or "Higher speed" (< 125 Mph): Las Vegas - Phoenix.
For 550 miles of the route, there are not enough people to make it worthwhile. The important tie in would be the possibility of connecting through St. Louis to the Memphis/Nashville/Roanoke corridor and the Ohio River valley connection on the east, and connecting on the west to Salt Lake City and points west like Las Vegas, San Francisco and Seattle/Portland. When you get 300+ miles with almost no population in the segment, you are already milking the hind tit on a dry cow. St. Louis to Denver needs passenger rail, high speed or not, as does Dallas to Denver. Maybe if the freight railroads got a local tax break for running HSR on their rights of way, they would be more inclined to participate.
The Passenger traffic that requests High speed trains is not needing local trains that get in the way.
If You assume the traffic that local riders would support are going to produce any profit,
you are barking up the wrong sewer.
@@danielhutchinson6604 You are entirely correct. However, if there is no benefit to the locals, you are never going to get the political buy-in necessary to procure right of way, and support for the project funding will be sorely lacking.
@@oldgandy5355 The USA is now at the end of the Economic rope.
The Government now is aware that they are incapable of paying the Debts that have accumulated from dominating Eastern Europe and now attempting to attack Russia.
I have been working for 30 years to promote a return of the Rail Infrastructure we had.
We may not get the 1920 levels of service, but something that served the Small Towns that shriveled up after the Mail was removed from the Rails in 1967.
I am aware, and I have danced with some of the Gandy Shovel Company Girls before.....
There are ways to convince people.
What good would a tax break do when HSR must be separated from freight traffic anyway?
@@davidjackson7281 There are several Right of way routes that have been abandoned.
The ability to upgrade them to handle some speed is not beyond the capacity of the industry.
The idea of plain old passenger traffic over the freight routes are not impossible to develop more Passenger traffic.
A lot of Humans are not willing to get into airplanes.
Boeing seems to be attempting to scare off some of that traffic.
The idea of creating Passenge traffic that is delivered to the High Speed routes,
does seem to have some additional benefits.
Would it be possible to create a map of all the theoretical HSR corridors you've done videos on? I'm just curious what it would look like on a map and I feel like it would be pretty easy, since you already have them all mapped out separately and it's just combining them. I just think it would be cool to see.
I am working toward a theoretical national HSR map once I'm done with the federal HSR corridor videos. I have 2 more to go. These city pair videos will also help inform that. I'll probably get another 3 or 4 city pairs in beforehand. Part of the reason for this video was to test the plains, since the western edge coming from the east in this area seemed like Kansas City at best.
I key part of building an HSR network is the network effect - so this leg isn't as practical as others but might make more sense in a larger east/west line. Plus, if you added a few stops in Limon and Hays, and connect DIA - it would be more useful overall.
An excellent and well developped plan !!!
Can we get a video about a high speed rail project from Windsor to Quebec City?
I'm biased because I used to live there and have both driven and flown between these cities. What I would say is politically, just two Kansas stops is not nearly enough even for an express. You're probably gonna have to add at least Hays (Fort Hays State U, large-ish school serving western KS+eastern CO) and Manhattan (K-State), and more likely than not add a station in Salina, even for an express. This would probably be enough to assuage political resistance especially if you added infill stops for less-express trains (like how the Shinkansen does it). But great video. Maybe some day.
The other thing too is... this could be the start of a connection to Chicago via St. Louis. Go through Missouri, hit Jefferson City, St. Louis, then on up through Illinois.
Yeah I was surprised he didn't add Manhattan.
Did you see the part of the video where I addressed this?
@@LucidStewI did and I understand the argument I just mean if you tried to actually get the local politicos to back this they’d fight for their cities to have stops. But I totally get why you did what you did and it’s completely valid. Diesel electric branch and locals are fine but I still think folks will feel left out
@@0xEA61E But they do get stops. For the small towns the stations on the trunk would be in bad locations. On a secondary regional, the locations would be good, and they'd still use portions of the trunk.
I have driven this route way too many times.
"Lew-Stew", I don't know how you come up with these, but man, you are definitely a person someone should take note of. Spot on with your suggestions, and like someone said below, what if you could continue this route to St. Louis?
I've driven it a couple times myself. I used to live in the STL area and will eventually be doing STL-KC as well as STL-Chicago. There are a lot of Chicago Hub Network pairs to cover, but I want to space them out a little.
@@LucidStew It's good to see another ex-Show-Me Stater. I grew up in Sedalia and was used to the M-K-T and MO-Pac trains on a regular. Will be looking for your next video, and yes i am a subscriber. Wishing you green signals on the "High Iron."
This is what we need!
I would like to see Salt Lake City to Las Vegas. If it would connect with Brightline, you could include Los Angeles* as a destination too. I know the route would be difficult because of the terrain, especially areas like the Virgin River Gorge, but it would still be interesting.
Speaking of the gorge, would it be better to bypass it through the still difficult, but probably better old highway 91? According to Google Maps, highway 91 adds 24 minutes and 10 miles to a car journey versus Interstate 15 through the gorge. If the gorge is chosen, I would assume blasting would be the way forward. I think that's what they had to do for the 15.
A Brightline Siemens diesel train averaging 80 mph would be the way to go.
3:02 *Topeka* & *Lawrence* are also served daily by *Amtrak's Southwest Chief*
If you're looking at a national HSR network this would be the better route to connect the eastern & western sides of the network across the Great Plains.
Are you saying better than the current Amtrak routes or the proposed routes released this year?
@@nathanbrandli6827, yes. The current primary routes across the Great Plains connect the Twin Cities & Montana, Omaha and Denver, KC & Albuquerque, and San Antonio & El Paso. These largely follow older 19th century routes. The centers of population have grown differently in this region than was anticipated. I think Amtrak’s proposed routes are sound, yet they are missing a strong link between KC & Denver which are closer together than most other major cities in this region. I connect it in part to of Kansas lacking a strong state passenger rail plan.
I'd love to see this happen as a Denverite (we're very isolated here :/) but realistically there's plenty of other HSR lines that should be prioritized since they serve way more people. Denver is pretty much in the middle of nowhere.
That being said, we are growing quite a bit so maybe something like this will become more realistic in the future.
Also being from Denver, I've heard it said that we are the largest metro area 500+ miles away from another major city, excluding SLC which is only about 1.2 million, but is under 400 straight line miles. Many people here are concerned with a 'low' population base for this route, but perhaps the distance between the two cities is the greater hindrance at approximately 600 miles. For HSR to work it needs to compete with air travel, so connections between cities need to be 600 or fewer miles apart without stops in between.
I just wish you’d ropes Manhattan into the line. The traffic for big XII sports would help.
Honestly, I can see the main HSR station in Denver being at the airport as it has a second set of unused platforms there. The platforms at Union station are already pretty congested with local trains and standard Amtrack rail.
To me, this assists in KDEN (DIA to locals) being an even more likely international/long distance air hub as major HSR routes can have the main Denver stop there.
Your whistling was surprising
Perfect, I wish you could add a station near Lawrence development at the KU campus as well as adding another station in Manhattan the home of the KSU Wildcats.
I go with a T-shape system, with a north-south branch connecting to Oklahoma City and Dallas, that would give you a lot more demand.
IF we spent the time and money developing HSR the way we developed the Interstate Highway system, then YES, it would be no different than the money we spent to construct I-70 between those same two cities. And wow would it be FAST. However, we need HSR in so many other places, this would be one of the last to get it in the grand scheme of things. But I enjoyed the video, I always enjoy all your videos. Thank you!
I agree
As someone in western kansas, the SW Cheif is the only thing we have and i would LOVE to have some more public options for inter-town transit. Sadly it will probably never happen in my lifetime. However, Even tho it might not be even as feasible as this, I feel a Whichita to Kansas City or even a Whichita to Denver line could prove useful as well. Given part of the latter would be able to share trackage rights with the SW Cheif and going through less populated areas so fewer slowdown areas.
the cost is worth it, there's gonna be a base cost of any new hsr line with acquiring row and laying track and at least some bridges and probably new station infrastructure, and this is probably one of the closest per mile costs to the base bc nearly all of it is at-grade and in the freeway row
Love the renders! Ever think of a doing a tutorial? 🚄
There's really not much me in the mix. I'm mostly just using and adapting things other people have done.
You could also add another possibilities such as Phoenix to El Paso; Fort Worth to Oklahoma City/Wichita; Las Vegas to Santa Fe via 4 Corners; El Paso to San Antonio; Dallas to Little Rock etc.
Most of those sound likely at some point. In particular I'm interested in the validity of something like an HSR transcon. Looks like the only possible one is San Antonio to Phoenix via El Paso. I think it's fairly well established that a set of regional systems makes sense on some level, so the more interesting question in my mind is if it makes sense to connect them to each other.
By the time this train route through the high plains is complete it will mostly be powered by wind energy. Therefore, I propose calling it the Amtrak High Wind.
I bet it would be an interesting route. You might want to think about a Kansas City to St Louis route. Maybe have some regional feeders Kansas City to omaha. You want to have a high-speed rail from Kansas City to chicago. Some feeder service from Kansas City down to Tulsa oklahoma. Maybe have Lincoln Nebraska figure into that somehow. You know once you start feeding it it might work itself out
A whole bunch of individual initiatives like this could quite easily be knitted together into a future High Speed Transcon - at that point, it'd be worth running nonstop end-to-end services on sectors like this - I'd guess those would be closer to an even 3hrs or even lower \m/
Hmmm. Some one needs to hire this man. Imagine what he could do from inside Amtrak or the FRA.
In more serious terms, this would be best as part of a larger network of hsr, by itself it isn't worth it, at least not right now.
Stew when you get time perhaps you can do one of these for Adelaide to Melbourne
One good thing about thie route is that this respects the actual travel that people do. The only other travel folks do in the area is to Wichita, which i get is way too far south
I think it makes sense *once* other links (like Kansas City - St. Louis, Kansas City - Oklahoma City, maybe Kansas City - Omaha, etc) get built. It would be a good way to connect up a regional network, the only other routing I really see being El Paso - Dallas which is also pretty questionable
While doing research for a RUclips video of my own, I looked at the corridor between Denver and Kansas City. High speed rail could be interesting, but I think we should get intermediate speed rail on the corridor first, at least from KC to Hays, and possibly to Denver. You have large universities with built-in demand because college students are less likely to own cars than most other populations (Kansas State and Fort Hays State), as well as some smaller cities that would otherwise not get any service at all like Salina and Junction City.
Other than fun, the main drive for looking at the idea is pace. Since it's going to take many decades and many billions to get to 110mph, the idea is why not just leap-frog that? Of course politics is an issue, but given the time scale we're talking about, dreaming a little doesn't hurt.
12:11 lol I just got back from a Nebraska Furniture Mart and it obviously sells furniture and offers interior design but it also sells gaming computers, toys like Lego and hot wheels (pretty good deals too I might add), kitchen aid appliances, electric bikes, etc. Think of this like a Furniture Store meets Best Buy meets a Homegoods store. 100% reccomend if you can go to one.
Most of the building is a warehouse that you can't access but the inside portion you can access is bigger than any Furniture store I know of
Dude, sounds awesome. We used to have something similar to that called Fry's. More centered on electronics, but they kind of sold everything, too. Each one had a different themed, too. Like space or steampunk or medieval. It was great. One of those place where you go to window shop from the inside.
@LucidStew that too sounds awesome, I wish I could've seen those stores.
I think it's worth it, especially as part of a mid-to-late stage in a national buildout of highspeed rail. If you could continue to Chicago or further East via an existing high speed rail network I think this project easily becomes a no brainer. Continuing West will be a trickier situation...
The interesting thing about this video is that it shows a couple of things:
1. Travel time, not distance, is the real measurement of the HSR sweet spot. Even though 500 mi is a long distance, the fact there's fuck-all damn near the entire length keeps speeds up and travel time down quite a shocking amount compared to many other city pair corridors.
2. While city pairs are popular in American transportation planning, this corridor pushes the philosophy to its absolute limit. City pairs are useful for aviation planning, because the costs of taking off and landing are so high that it makes sense to minimize them via point-to-point travel (something Southwest has historically been very successful at).
I wanted to find out how much ridership this corridor was likely to have, and so I plugged it into a Northeast-trained ridership model I've been working on. Even in the most wildly optimistic scenario of HSR capturing *half* of the corridor's demand space, I only found it achieving 16,000 riders a day. Much more likely would it being on an even footing with the airlines, about 3,000 riders a day, capturing 10% of ridership demand.
The problem here is that, compared to a plane, the stopping penalty for rail--even high-speed rail--is trivial, as long as it is constrained to one stop per metropolitan area or so, which means that the larger a network a given corridor is embedded in, ceterus paribus, the more ridership it is likely to generate. In particular--and this is my guess, since I didn't want to spend another hour remodeling the system to account for the larger network--Denver-KC HSR will only be viable with a fully built out, fast Chicago-St. Louis-KC HSR line and a Front Range corridor to act as a collector/distributor for various trips to and from the Midwest. Even then, even with how fast your proposed line is, I think it'll be important to bring the linespeed up to 350 kph or so to reduce travel time such that the Front Range spokes sit at the edge of the HSR sweet spot relative to Chicago.
This would be fantastic. Getting across that High Plains empty(ish) quarter is the hard thing though. Network effects would help, but from the perspective of a network, would it be better to cross the desert elsewhere? E.g. along the S. Platte/Platte Rivers like the Zephyr partially does.
That leads me to wonder if the leading alternative to this project is speeding up the Zephyr between Denver and Omaha while connecting Omaha to KC.
Then connect KC to OKC via the Heartland Flyer while you’re at it.
Basically, use N-S rail (maybe HSR is viable?) to knit together the wet eastern border of the desert like the Front Range Rail would knit together the western end. Then speed up the existing river-tracing E-W lines like the Zephyr and the Chief.
I'd love to see Manhattan, Kansas and St. Louis added.
I love this idea, but folks in Denver look West for business and other connections. I just can't imagine there is enough demand to justify this route.
@LucidStew - this would be a great series if you look at what people perceive to be "marginal" connections to existing proposals or likely good extensions of existing or proposed lines and crunched the numbers a bit to see what is actually feasible or not. For example:
Portland to Eugene?
Sacramento to Chico & Redding?
Fort Collins to Cheyenne and maybe Rapid City?
Chicago - Cedar Rapids - Des Moines - Omaha?
DFW/Texas HSR extension to OKC?
Cascadia HSR to Bend, Yakima, Spokane?
Memphis - Nashville - Chattanooga - Knoxville all connecting to ATL somehow?
Flagstaff - Phoenix - Tucson - Nogales
And so on...?
We're looking at a situation where it's going to be 4-8 years before either CAHSR or BLW are carrying passengers. At a pace of roughly 3 videos a month, there are going to be a LOT of looks at iffy ideas. I'm willing to look at fringe ideas, but it will need to be anchored by two major metros unless its completely tongue in cheek, like Lincoln, NE to Omaha.
@@LucidStew That'd be great!
Looking forward to your southeast corridor video. DFW to Little Rock amtrak service is awful. Scheduled run time is something like 10 hrs. It's a 5.5 hr drive... Little Rock won't even be the largest metro area in Arkansas anymore, Northwest Arkansas is taking that title. Our airport has a decent amount of connections but plenty of people still drive to Tulsa for additional connections. Tulsa having HSR connection would make me more interested in using HSR to get to Dallas vs. flying. It's hard to beat total flight ET but the flying experience has gotten so poor over the last 5 years that I'm looking for any alternatives.
It would look good and they need to be running tests for said line right now!
I would love a Dallas to Denver route... But that's very highly unlikely.
Once I get this South Central HSR Corridor video done, it's going to unlock some good city pairs. I'm not sure if I'll do Dallas-Denver direct, but probably Dallas-OKC, and then OKC-KC. or something like Front Range HSR, and then Dallas to Pueblo via OKC. It's about 700 miles, so you need quite a few stops to make it work. That was one of the issues with this one.
@@LucidStew sweet, thank you
I’ll take highway medians & R.O.W. to make it financially viable, but the best views are away from the interstate, which may not seem like much as they’re plains, but each has their intrinsic beauty. I wonder how reasonable a route shared with the CA Zephyr east of Denver to mid Nebraska before going SE to KC, picking up the secondary stops would be. Could make the CA Zephyr HSR more feasible without sacrificing a new connection with Denver.
Nebraska Furniture Mart has a really sizable area of computers and appliances and non-furniture items. It really is several stores in one.
The larger Legends area is quite impressive with the KS Speedway, Children’s Mercy Park, the casino, and Legends Field all there. If the area were to get a regional rail network (I’ve only heard of this possibly, one day happening in the Missouri side of the Metro since KCMO got World Cup games and they then woke up the next morning and realized how terrible the transit is in the area and how monumental an effort it will be to get people from where most of the hotels are to Truman Sports Complex) then this would be a great area for a stop.
I like the idea of Denver to KC rail because it can be a great part of a larger national HSR network, especially since KC is already connected to St. Louis and Chicago. But I think KC needs to be in the next video. IIRC, Kansas officials have been working with Amtrak (and OK) to get Wichita and Newton (and possibly KC) connected in an extension of the Heartland Flyer. If there’s going to be HSR all the way to OKC/Tulsa, why not connect it all the way to Kansas City? I’d be really interested in how you’d use I-35 in Kansas and Missouri to accomplish this.
OKC-KC or OKC-STL are both definitely on the list. I would guess off-hand there are probably at least 50 of these city pair videos worth doing over all. I'll try to cover as many as possible without getting silly. Denver-KC was kind of on the low end. While I wouldn't chose to build it myself, I still found it interesting and surprising that it was reasonably competitive with flying, given the distance. The real problem is demand, imo. That's kind of the idea of the series, though, to flesh these out and see if they make any sense.
Nebraska furtiniture mart is the greatest furniture store on the planet
Ha! My company usually books rooms at Crowne Center for corporate events; it really is like an island from the rest of downtown KC that could benefit from a subway/rail system. I hate flying, so I wish this was an actual thing.
While we're talking about some less popular corridors, I'd really love your thoughts/proposed route for Alberta's high speed rail between Calgary and Edmonton. It might help us build momentum as the province is exploring passenger rail with a Calgary Grand Central Station adjacent to a new 4 St SE Green Line LRT station.
CPKC's ROW is pretty good most of the way, except it gets complicated near Red Deer, of which I'd probably put a station at the southern end of Red Deer, near either the college or Westerner Park (exhibition/rodeo grounds) and then follow Highway 2 until the north end of Red Deer (near Blackfalds) where you can reconnect to the CPKC ROW.
I really like this because you can have Shinkansen style multiple layer of Super Expresses, Express, Local Express trains and interweaving meaning you can stuff through a lot more trains. The utility would be generally even better if Kansan City had corridor on its way to Chicago. Also fuck $45B is cheap af, just build this instead of ordering two F-35s.
This would definitely work.
The thing about the midwest is that most neighboring cities are 4+ hours away if you drive and usually the only alternative is to fly. Furthermore, flying is often far more expensive than it would be to just drive it and that's without factoring the need to rent a car upon arrival in most midwest cities due to a lack of good public transportation, the additional cost of flying a family, and the limits that places on what you can take with you.
So for those reasons when most midwest families go on a trip they pack up the car and drive and we often do not bat an eye at driving 8+ hours in a single day. The Gulf, East, or West Coast, Florida, the Rockies, it doesn't matter. Driving is often choice number one for most people to save money.
However, just because we are willing to spend so long driving to save a buck doesn't mean we don't wish for better options.
If something cheaper and affordable came along that would also save us time and allow us to take most of the things we need for our trip all at little to no extra cost came along, well then people around here could definitely be swayed.
As an advocate for public transportation and high speed rail I know this would work and meet all of those needs.
I cannot count the number of times I've heard people say they wished there was a high speed train connecting A to B, but since it doesn't exist they drive instead.
So this on it's own would almost certainly work, especially with the regional stops. However, if it were also linked to St. Louis and elsewhere as well as part of a national network, the I guarantee you it would succeed. You would have people taking this line all the way from Indianapolis, Columbus, or Louisville so there's no doubt in my mind that it would be worth it.
i would argue it is worth the cost:
Before the inevitable explosion of HSR in north america over the next 50 years, it would help to have some initial projects with low cost/mile to practice and learn on, and for the market to observe and develop technilogies for. This in conjuction with LA-PHX would be a testing ground for policies and procedures, the AZ one would cover building HSR in the desert, and the Denver-KCMO line would inform any other HSR projects built in the Plains or midwest. one extra point High Plains has in its favor is serving 3 states instead of just 2, meaning a couple extra senators and reps who could advocate for it and HSR in general in Washington.
Two words: low priority. Sure it'll work, sure it'll be cheap, but is it really the thing we want to be putting our efforts towards?
It’s a good route, just very little demand which makes it unlikely to ever be built. Denver is just way too remote to be economically connected to a HSR network
First! 😂 Great renders. Cool to see the cars moving ❤
I would like to see this complete before hovercars are invented.
Cost should be compared with the amount of Essential Air Service subsidies Nebraska and Kansas are getting.
plus just before covid the airline prividing most of the itra- kansa and local modwestern local air srvice when belly up.
Yeah, why not, even though, just looking at the map, it seems like the middle part, prolonging it in the east to St. Louis and in the west to Salt Lake City (Now here , I would say, begins the most costly part...but just thinking about it...Winnemucca-Reno-Sacramento, where you're connected to this California High Speed), might not be that wrong...so, even Los Angeles would be reachable by train in somewhat, don't know,12 hours?
I can see this route maybe, MAYBE, making sense once both the Front Range and the Midwest regional networks are complete. It should be built with the feds picking up the whole bill, and serve as the rail equivalent of a worm hole, feeding trains in from one region and spitting them out into the other as fast as the technology will allow.
I had looked at the possibility of a route like this before, mostly using the right-of-way of the Kyle Railroad, which, I believe is the route of the old Rock Island Line that was used for the Rocky Mountain Rocket.. The line split at Limon; one line to Denver, the other to Colorado Springs.
Do you also envision the possibility of also running trains from Omaha into this route, the way the Rock Island fed trains from Omaha and connecting to this HSR line somewhere near Belleville?
It certainly wouldn't be one of the first additions to a new nationwide HSR network, but maybe later on. Is it possible to make it any faster without blowing out cost wise?
I watched this yesterday, and while I’m as much of an advocate for passenger service as you’ll find, this simply is not based in reality. If anything, what’s possible is a state(s)-sponsored train on a route like you’re talking about that runs on an upgraded KP.
If/when the US goes HSR-crazy we can consider this route, but in the interim, I’d love to simply have AN option, and one that serves Ft. Riley, Junction City, Abilene, Hays, etc., that can garner political support from the leaders along the way in the process.