Look I get you're trying to make an interesting video and all, but it seems like you're reaching a bit if I'm being objective. Your initial concerns were they called themselves "disciples"? The word christian is only the bible 3 times. Nowadays it definitely has a connotation with being a nominal, passive christian. Disciple is an active word, meaning follower/ student. Way better term to describe yourself if you take your faith seriously imo. Your second concern was that they thought 'the modern church was bad'... you genuinely disagree with this? Jesus constantly warns about false teachers/false doctrine. He even made statements about false christians - read Matthew 6:21-23. I see no problem here. Next, "Malcolm" was asking you about sin in your life and trying to help you with it? Read 1 John 1:9 Your fourth concern was they said "no one outside of the icoc was saved". I've been in the church 20 years and only heard people preach against this. Your fifth concern was they reached out to people by getting into their interests, Paul literally did this. Read 1 Corinthians 9:20-22. Your sixth concern was "it was a main thing to try and bring new people into the group" - yeah, it's called making disciples and we're all commanded to do it as Christians. Matthew 28:18-20. I'm sure some of these young guys made mistakes/sinned, but this happens in every church... I'm honestly asking here with an open heart, what did you see/ experience that was unbiblical or false doctrine?
I didn't try to make the video interesting; I just wanted to share my story. Before I respond to your points, let me explain about the wrong teachings in the group: The main false doctrine they taught was rejecting the significance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Instead of promoting salvation through faith, they pressured the group to lie to people on campus by falsely claiming they had shared interests with people on campus to convince them to join our group. While followers of Jesus naturally share their faith, ICOC explicitly taught that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was just a topic of discussion, and salvation wasn't secured by it. Instead, salvation was contingent upon performing good works. This undermines the essence of Jesus' sacrifice; if salvation isn't attained through faith, then Jesus' sacrifice becomes meaningless. Once saved by His grace, transformation occurs, and good works naturally follow. However, preaching salvation through good works contradicts the Gospel and distorts Jesus' teachings and actions. Now, to address your responses: 1. I don’t care about the worldly connotation associated with the term 'Christian'. The word literally means to profess Christianity, being baptized, or believing in Christianity, not in the definitions imposed by the world. Don’t get the world power to make you run from the word “Christian”. 2. The modern church isn't lost; despite its flaws, Jesus continues to guide and use His church in significant ways. Read the Gospel. 3. Malcolm's focus wasn't on addressing sin or genuine care for people like myself; it was primarily about reporting back to Ricky with a checklist of 'good deeds' performed. That’s not what 1 John 1:9 is saying. Read the Gospel. 4. The false doctrine was consistently reiterated in every Bible talk. 5. Paul, in his missionary efforts, adapted his approach depending on his audience, but he never compromised the truth of the Gospel. Lying, as practiced by the ICOC, contradicts Jesus and the Gospel. Read the Gospel. 6. It's weird to attend a college class with the sole purpose of lying to people by saying their interests are yours with the goal of them attending your unbiblical group later that week, especially when the main objective, as seen in Malcolm's case, wasn't centered on genuine faith but rather on pleasing Ricky. True discipleship is anchored in Jesus, not in personal agendas. This situation wasn't about Jesus; it was about fulfilling Ricky's desires. Read the Gospel. I hope you'll leave the ICOC and find a church that focuses on genuine faith and true discipleship, centered on what Jesus has done for us. True faith changes us, making us eager to share the joy of knowing Jesus with others, without resorting to lies, deception, and manipulative behavior.
@@JordanKranda oh boy. Here we go. 😂 Jesus called belief a work. James says faith without deeds is dead. Give one example of someone praying Jesus into their heart as an act of salvation - you won’t find any. You need to dig A LOT deeper into why baptism is ESSENTIAL for salvation - and the work is one in God working - NOT the water working. Just like your prayer is a work in Jesus working not your prayer (which is a work). I don’t have time to dig into all the scriptures to prove my point. Your mind is already made up as is mine. If a person isn’t a baptized disciple they are not making it to heaven. Sorry if that upsets you - but truth is truth. All the best.
Hey Jordan, watched your video, you seem like a genuine dude and it was very interesting to watch your video to say the least. While I am not in the ICOC I am in the ICC the current movement of churches, that Kip leads. There was a split in 2001-2002 (Unrelated to your video, but just so you know where I am coming from). Only thing I wanted to bring up on here is that the bible does teach that we must be Jesus's disciple, referring to yourself as a Christian (If you are a disciple) isn't bad, but we must be disciples. Here's why: " To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32. We see In order to know the truth, we must be Jesus's disciple, but in order to be his disciple we must hold to Jesus's teachings. At the end of the day, I can't speak for how your experience was, but the bible does say we have to be disciples to be saved. I pray and hope you see where this message is coming from - Praying for you and wish you the best.@@JordanKranda
That's awesome that you've taken the step to leave. I'm praying that God gives you strength and encouragement throughout that process. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
the sad thing about that Brandon is that, that is done deliberately. There's a degree of isolation in the group making it harder for members to leave. it's like when Peter asked Christ where shall we go. Whatever you chose just know that God has your back. Godspeed
@@user-hp3di8sz9d Thanks everybody for your prayers and advice! Hey, yes I left. I told them I didn't believe what they believed about salvation, them believing that you need faith in Jesus plus physical water baptism to be saved, and I cut ties. I didn't realize how much of a burden the cult was on me, but God in His grace empowered me to leave and now I'm resting in His freedom from that, and recovering as well. You have no allegiance to anyone there, only to Christ upon you believing in Him. I pray God simply empowers you by His Spirit to leave, and He will, I can attest. God bless.
Recently gone through some of these Bible “studies/talks” and the main point that really messed me up was when the leader of the study had said you aren’t saved unless you were a disciple and that my baptism was not of God. One night before there was another study I had prayed asking for discernment of their spirits and if it is good for me and I also asked the Lord to take away anyone and everyone that was not supposed to be in my life. The next morning I continued to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me and as I went to the study, they began to talk about the importance of being a disciple to save my life and that all my family members are not saved. I told him about my grandfather being a pastor and he stated my grandpa is not saved because he never told me about what they were teaching. As I left and throughout the rest of the day I just had a deep conviction that this was so wrong and I immediately cut ties. They really do know how to misuse scripture to back their claims. Praise God I was led away! And I pray many become aware of their deception.
I'm truly sorry you went through that, but it's amazing how God guided you through the entire experience. I'm thankful you had the courage and clarity of mind to let God lead you through it.
This is continually happening in Boston and in ministries all across the US. I became a bible talk leader and got a glimpse into the leadership ideology and learned very quickly that it isn’t healthy. Its unhealthy from the top down. Many leaders are generational and carry over the mispractices of their parents. Claims that this church is “different” than it used to be are false. My advice is to find another local church that clearly teaches the bible and is very transparent about leadership and beliefs. Avoid the ICOC and ICC.
Had the same experience, when you objective ask questions using the Bible to disagree with them they start saying focus on this verse stop mentioning that verse. If we are talking about the bible you can't tell me your interpretation is the truth and the rest ignore it. Well happy to say the kicked me out of the study and said I wasn't humble enough to learn
@@BrandonYoungMusic, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! Just like a mind-controlled cultist, telling a total stranger what they’re REALLY thinking and feeling! First of all, piss all the way off with that shit! I determine my happiness, not your imaginary apocalyptic blood cult god. Secondly, I well and truly pity you, and hope you someday understand the truth of your folly.
@BrandonYoungMusic He is a part of God's church. First and foremost, the Church is a body of believers. Point out where in the Bible it says the ICC or ICOC. Secondly, he is in the church and actually in a good healthy one. How you treat him as not being in a church because he isn't ICC or ICOC is perfect example of how they are. And if you listen fully, he is actually sad for the lost in those garbage dumpster cults.
I was a member of this group from 1995 - 2006. I was essentially the perfect prey - fresh out of high school, about to start college, parents recently divorced, moving around, desperate for some sense of family and belonging. I also dealt with ADHD (though not knowing about it at the time), as well as major depression & anxiety. Given all of this, I desperately wanted to please people. It was such a dark period in my life - and I haven't been able to commit to a church since, and it took a long time before I felt I could trust another person again.
I almost joined the ICOC. I had the same experiences and at one point, when they got what I call "gangster" with me. My mind and body knew I was in trouble and I started having fevers head aches, panic attacks and a host of other reaction synonymous with trauma. I'm glad I got away. It was horrible, really horrible.
@@JordanKranda Okay.. It was all smiles, hugs and warmth until they took me through that bible study of theirs. It was a small house next to a university and there were something like 20 male college students living in a tiny house. That right there was a red flag. About 5 members sat me down at a table in a dark kitchen and it was set up like an intense interrogation. They took me through versus like 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 28, 19-20 and whole host of other scripture designed to put the human mind in a panic about the potential consequence of going to hell. We would read versus and in a very sharp business like manner would ask me; "What do you think of that..." and would use vivid examples to illustrate what those passages mean by their churches standards adding their own embellishments to the word. I even remember their leader ripping my bible out of my hand and having me read his because my bible was a Catholic Bible and they of course use the NIV. I remember 2 of them drove me home one time and they both got into a HEATED argument. One was accusing the other of not believing enough in the return on Christ. One said in an intense tone to the other "SO IF HE CAME BACK TOMMOROW! WOULD YOUR SOUL BE READY!" I have a few more examples but it's like I said. One minute smiles the next minute serious intensity.
Thank you so much for sharing this. I almost joined Kip Mckean's new movement, "ICC" but I am grateful that I ended up not joining them. I won't go into detail, but a couple of the ladies ended up ambushing and confronting me in 2021 in a public space and it really scared me, so I've never been able to bring myself to be apart of them since. I'm the happiest I've ever been, I've grown in my faith, I have a solid Christian community now and I'm in such a great place holistically too!😊
Oh wow. I love hearing how Jesus brought you to the place you're in now. What a blessing. Praise Jesus for that. I'm really sorry you had to go through what you did, but it's amazing to hear where you're at now. Thanks for sharing a part of your story!
Love Hearing This! I never joined the ICC/ICOC but went to a few attended a few events over a month with this cult mistakenly thinking it was another evangelical Christian group when I decided to cut off all contact afyer seeing what they did. I did go to a few events a month later trying to rescue two moron friends who had been manipulated into participation and to ask out a girl who had fallen into this garbage cult. Some toxic and bullshit I saw were: I.) They would take the Bible verse where Jesus explains how believers must place Him above family & friends. They falsely implied your willingness to do this could be proved by joining the ICC/ICOC and isolating from friends & family who weren't members. They additionally implied loyalty to the ICC/ICOC above everything as a good way to demonstrate this. II.) They would imply themselves as the only true church and accuse every other church of being lukewarm. Furthermore, they would find the slightest flaw or stereotype to rail against any other church as evil without even genuine consideration and while turning a blind eye to ICC/ICOC members having the same problems. III.) They would praise themselves as a diverse church which was often a result of mostly recruiting disenfranchised, lesser educated, minorities, and vulnerable people. The ICC/ICOC took advantage of them and their leadership at the very top didn't reflect any of their members. IV.) They emphasized baptism into their church as necessity for acceptance. V.) Speaking out against any aspect of their church is often met with accusations of being a very negative person and that the person has some spiritual shortcomings. VI.) Members are encouraged to do anything for the purpose of recruiting other members. They are asked to be overly friendly and essentially lovebomb others who are prospective members or visitors. Anyone rejecting or leaving the church are portrayed as infidels and many members will slowly break off all contact. Much testimony exists from those who left after being longtime members; and how virtually all of their relationships ended shortly afterwards. VII.) The ICC/ICOC discourages members from dating non-members. Their leadership has sort of a certification and endorsement process of this. VIII.) Leaders are often paraded around as quasi-celebrities or cults of personality. Those who don't treat them as such are implied as ignorant or lacking.
As a Christian on my own at college, my biggest fear is accidently joining a cult, and I know that may sound silly but it truly is. Thank you for the video, sharing some red flags to look out for and for sharing your experience.
in Matthew 9;36 the crowd wants healing and financial blessing and that is not what ici offers. This church offers is to be a true disciple, talk about Jesus Christ and be meek and humble and love your enemies and pray for your friends. If you are willing to do this, go back to ICI or come to ICI, particularly they showed me the truth of being a follower of Jesus Christ. And it's not easy because I have to deny myself. And Christ calls us to do this. Luke 9;23 Jesus said to everyone: - If anyone wants to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me.
Never doubt the Holy Spirit. I'm so glad you listened to the Holy Spirit in you and left the group. You're so blessed to have a caring older brother who watches out for you, too.
ICOC not only teaches that they are the only way to heaven, but that water baptism is a requirement for membership and therefore also for salvation. I grew up in the "old" Church of Christ. Similar beliefs, just not as culty,
I didn't get further enough in to the learn that, so thanks for sharing that. Was Kip McKean over the church you grew up in or was that a different one?
The early Christians did use full immersion. Christ himself was water baptised in the Jordan River. John the Baptist baptised in water. Later baptisms included acceptance of Holy Spirit and the redeeming power of Christ's death and subsequent resurrection. Jesus commanded baptism at Matthew 28: 19, 20
I almost joined the ICOC in 1999. Freshman in college. Like many who had these same stories, the encounter was simple enough - inviting, welcoming, nice. Went to a few Bible talks. Had the same weird observations (except they didn’t mind being called Christians). The first red flag was when they told me my baptism wasn’t valid. The studies continued, (the one-on-ones), the Bible Talks, weekend service. But same weird vibes (calling me a guest and saying one day I would be family), and that’s not how church went in my life. The breaking point was the “sin study,” and it felt too invasive (what stopped them from using my sins to blackmail me, ridicule me, gaslight me?). I decided there would be no more studies, and told a member (who was the only girl in the group and would have been my discipler) that I was out. It had to have been about 3-4 weeks or so.
Thanks for sharing your story! It’s really interesting to me how similar and dissimilar your story is from my story. I’m happy to hear that you got out and that it didn’t take you long to figure out something was wrong. That’s great to hear.
Have you ever once been objective enough to consider the possibility that your baptism might not be valid? Like even once considered it from a purely objective lens. Ultimately we submit to scripture and not our own opinions or feelings. Be guided by his words, not your feelings or lived experience.
@@BrandonYoungMusic maybe your baptism is incorrect? the problem is that you guys always believe every baptism outside your church is incorrect! Satan get thee behind me!
They are a cult for sure. I had gone to one of the ICOC churches for a few years. I loved their worship sessions with a focus on participation and their use of what I consider to this day rather good hymns. I did notice they were a bit weird, the pastor seems like he was just there to preach on Sundays but didn't really have any leadership in the church. They also spent a lot of time calling out people in the congregation for their positive things, which is not a bad thing but I later realized it was a way of positively reinforcing total commitment to their church. I did find it odd they stressed baptism and just chalked it up to a quirk (as most churches have). Boy when I started going through the membership is when it started coming together for me. They were cherry picking verses, and carefully avoiding scriptures in the same paragraphs. I remember asking them "Do you not believe people in other churches are save?" to which they gave me a long-winded answer that avoided saying 'no' or yes for that matter. They then didn't accept my baptism at other churches which I don't mind doing, but realistically is not how Christians are saved, it is an after the fact kinda thing. I had already a very strong understanding of the bible so their arguments fell apart pretty quickly. I left and never went back. Some tried to reach out to me but they got tired of me preaching to them. They are people who are wolves in their congregations but my experience was that there are many more people who just want to do the right thing, they are just doing it for the wrong people/reasons. "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." -Matthew 9:36
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. It makes sense that they want to encourage good behavior by mentioning people. That's really interesting. I'm happy you knew the Bible well, so they couldn't change your mind like they did with me at first. Let's be glad that God helped you through it. Thanks again for telling your story.
Contradictory what you say! Why do they care about our lives in ICI, formerly Icoc. I always had someone to show me the truth in the Bible. To this day, I have someone who helps me with the Bible, not with beautiful words to please my heart, but to bring me closer to God and not closer to my bad human desires, which satisfy us, but are misleading.
This is almost identical to my experience! I was approached by the ICC in 2021 when I was looking into Christianity and religion seriously for the first time and also dealing with some painful things. I spent around a month with them as well as going to another Church, until I eventually stopped going to the ICC meetings altogether after one of their Bible studies where they told me my grandmother was going to hell or something of the sort. They said other things that didn't sit right with me as well and eventually I broke down and my friends and family made me realise what was going on.
@@parker9163 imo nobody knows for sure who’s going to hell and who isn’t, and I’m almost 100% sure God wouldn’t want us going around telling people they’re going to hell. If you’re Christian, the only “criteria” afaik is believing in Jesus. Not sure why you commented this.
I’m sorry you had to experience this. SMH I almost joined in college as well. But I left because the doctrine did not sit well with me. I was fighting to let their doctrine in. I left after 3 months. That’s also when the love bombing started to decline which made me feel alone and furthered my will to leave.
I'm really happy you ended up leaving. It's interesting that we both left after about 3 months. I bet it's been something to process for you after leaving, as it was for me, but I'm glad we both got out.
@@JordanKranda WHO'S ORDAINED TO PREACH?? (Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God (Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord (Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets (Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER (Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord (☝️why are you attempting to preach God's word - why??)
I was SO close to getting baptized in the ICC and becoming a full member but through deep prayer God immediately told me the truth about this “church” and revealed their lies to me through videos/posts like this!! I’m very glad you were able to get out and still retain your faith, “churches” like these can be really detrimental to one’s faith and can cause one to walk away from the faith entirely, but I’m very glad you were still able to maintain your relationship with Christ as that is the most important thing of all.
That's amazing to hear how Jesus provided for you! Thank you for sharing. Your kind words really encouraged me. Jesus has been so faithful to me throughout that whole situation, and I'm grateful to still be following Him. Thank you for your comment.
So true and Amen to that! I believe that it was a test in my case and I believe that I passed the test because I could have walked away from the faith but if anything it made me want to search other communities and it did strengthen my faith. I was originally going to balance this church with my current Church but now that I went to my current church I immediately knew that I had to quit the other one because I just felt a huge difference because it felt more loving accepting and positive. Nobody being overly nosy or passive-aggressive or making assumptions that I left the faith because I left their Church. Then I also started seeing videos like this and as well as researching COC I found out so many people who left the cult on Facebook support group and also on here and I found that my experiences were very similar even though it wasn't severe but it was severe enough for me to leave!
I attended a few events over a month with this cult mistakenly thinking it was another evangelical Christian group when I decided to cut off all contact. I did go to a few events a month later attempting to rescue two friends who had been manipulated into participations and ask out a girl who had fallen into this garbage cult. Some toxic and bullshit I saw were: I.) They would take the Bible verse where Jesus explains how believers must place Him above family & friends. They falsely implied your willingness to do this could be proved by joining the ICC/ICOC and isolating from friends & family who weren't members. They additionally implied loyalty to the ICC/ICOC above everything as a good way to demonstrate this. II.) They would imply themselves as the only true church and accuse every other church of being lukewarm. Furthermore, they would find the slightest flaw or stereotype to rail against any other church as evil without even genuine consideration and while turning a blind eye to ICC/ICOC members having the same problems. III.) They would praise themselves as a diverse church which was often a result of mostly recruiting disenfranchised, lesser educated, minorities, and vulnerable people. The ICC/ICOC took advantage of them and their leadership at the very top didn't reflect any of their members. IV.) They emphasized baptism into their church as necessity for acceptance. V.) Speaking out against any aspect of their church is often met with accusations of being a very negative person and that the person has some spiritual shortcomings. VI.) Members are encouraged to do anything for the purpose of recruiting other members. They are asked to be overly friendly and essentially lovebomb others who are prospective members or visitors. Anyone rejecting or leaving the church are portrayed as infidels and many members will slowly break off all contact. Much testimony exists from those who left after being longtime members; and how virtually all of their relationships ended shortly afterwards. VII.) The ICC/ICOC discourages members from dating non-members. Their leadership has sort of a certification and endorsement process of this. VIII.) Leaders are often paraded around as quasi-celebrities or cults of personality. Those who don't treat them as such are implied as ignorant or lacking. IX.) They would claim that other churches were lukewarm in rebuking bad behavior and such wasn't them. Funny thing is that from hearing ex-members who've left they are more concerned with how that rebuke is delivered than actual effectiveness; used to test & breakdown healthy boundaries with others; not realize the context of rebuking others or asking who is the one delivering rebukes; claim such was intended with love when it was more for the ICC/ICOC organization ultimately. Just some of what I saw and would love to hear your perspectives on....
I agree with everything you say here. I was in this church too back in 1989 to 1992. I even moved into a 'sisters flat'. Dating was only allowed with other established members, no outsiders, if you owned a property, they wanted to turn it into a sisters or brothers flat, if youndidnt have enough money for the weekly quote - meeting. Always belittling and made to feel low and how we are disappointing God, If we didnt reach our ratio of people to evangelise to - meeting. No new converts? - meeting. If you spend too much time with your physical family - meeting. In the sermons, to prove points of Godliness, they would publicly embarrass other members for their failings. It didn't feel right after 3 years there, living with them and commiting my life there. Controlling what we do and how we say things was like living with narcissists. The church was on the telly alot in a negative cult way, the doors were locked and no one allowed in after the sermon started. Very defensive people. I got out. 25 years Later I found my way to God, I repented my sins, and guess what? God blesses me everyday. My faith in the Lord never wavered, he gave me the strength to get out, being a child of God is not woe on woe, its repentance and forgiveness and Love and learning Gods word. Thats just my memories on this from 30 years ago. May The Lord bless you and guide you always. Amen 🙏
Good thing you got out before you literally went all the way (being baptized and an official member). I was a member for 8 1/2 months in a campus ministry in the mid 90's and boy do I wish a close family member or friend would've gave me a heads up, I would've never wasted almost a year of my life on this toxic cult. I salute your older brother for researching, advising, and being there for you.
Yea, I'm really blessed to have my brother give me a heads up on this. And, if I may, what made you finally leave the group after almost 9 months? I'm glad you didn't stay in for much longer. Thanks for sharing a part of your story.
Just remember, if you love Jesus you will obey his commands. Read the New Testament it’s clear what sacrifices must be made to be saved. You can’t remain wicked and also be saved.
@@JordanKrandaAmen! Glad I missed out as well. Feel sorry for those manipulated enough to experience! Part of me sees how foolish and idiotic such is; but how vulnerable they must have been for the ICOC & ICC to take advantage.
Thank you for your story. I share a very similar story when one of the cult elders chewed me out as "blasphemous" when I transitioned from ICOC to Presbyterianism. These guys have no idea what the Word needs to be spoken in love and not self-righteousness. This Ricky guy clearly advocates Kip McKean's toxic "one true church" theology and thinks like a true Pharisees condemning anyone not like them. Romans 14:3-44: The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
I really appreciate you sharing part of our story. I'm sorry that you had to hear them call you blasphemous. That must have been hard, but I'm glad to hear that Jesus led you out of their cult. That's great news. And yes, that Ricky guy was definitely advocating that terrible theology. Have a blessed day.
I have been in this Church in South Africa for 11 years! Raised 3 kids and true very very destructive I still have Subconscious beliefs that holds me back in life and I am 55 years old now. Never never let anyone get into your mind like that! Especially when you are young and vulnerable. But, today I see it as part of my life purpose and path as I learnt to love and accept myself just as I am. A loooong story and very difficult road, as I went through 2x divorces but do not miss one friend I that church. If I look back now I was happier when I left the church the best years of my life even though my marriage did not make it because we built it on the most Rediculous and old fashioned teachings it wrecked us. There were also suicides at that time. My sister is still in the church and she is happy but. I never had time to focus on something for myself as I had 3 kids and with all the church activities so never learnt how to survive in the world out here. Even my kids cannot understand me today. They have no idea. But anyway it is the past now and all we have is now! Today I do not want anything to do with religion. I run!! 😂 But I am a very sensitive empathic person and this is why I experienced it as very traumatic and spiritual abuse. But everyone has there own experience I guess. My parents died when I was young and I believed (as I was thought) that they are in hell 😪 so I was always crying and never felt good enough when I was a "disciple'. Thanks for sharing! ❤❤
Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate your openness. It’s clear you faced a lot of hardship in that church. While I wish you’d stayed with Christianity, I’m glad you got out of that tough situation. Thanks again for sharing-I'm happy you moved on from them.
Thank you, Jordan, for sharing your experiences with us. I encourage you to be faithful to our Lord. Unfortunately, we will rub shoulders with people who are being misled and who, unwittingly perhaps, are misleading others. Through it all, I encourage you to follow Jesus. He alone will be our judge. This is coming from a Christian who is almost 70 and have seen a lot in my life and have, through friends who left this movement, gotten to know a little about them. May God bless you, Miles.
I’m glad more people are opening up about this. Very similar story nearly 3 decades ago now. Same tactics, what a mind job. And in the name of Christ. Doubly horrible.
I was a member of this so called "church" quite a long time ago. At the end of the 80ies the came ober to Europe to "missionare" he ppl. over here. I'vr met Kip and his younger brother Randy, personaly, back then... It took me more than to yesrs to realisiert what this Group intents were all about: mindgames, Manipulation and at least, but mainly getting after your MONEY!
Hey So i was baptized when i was 16 and i met this girl she's a member of icc in Sweden. So she asked me for Bible study and i said yes. So i started going but the problem was like i started doing disciplining Bible study. So it was like they don't expect another baptism unless it with them. I grew up in very religious home so i went and asked my dad coz i kinda lost my way when i moved out. So he told me i don't need to get baptized again. All i need is to repent etc but the girl was saying other things. And the love bomb is real 😅😅. So i left efter
I was attending their bible talks and going to their weekly group events (which was exhausting as an introvert but I really wanted to give it my all and be a part of their family-like dynamic). I started studying the bible for myself and seeking truth and started feeling more and more weird about them. I also noticed if I missed church for something they got really really inquisitive/almost judgmental (even though one of those times was to go to a friends church for just that weekend...) Sure enough when I told my partner in the group that I was feeling really overwhelmed and needed to stop going (after being pressured to get baptized and tell all my secrets and live ONLY the way they TELL me to) she became noticeably angry. Not caring like I expected. Angry. I felt like she was trying to give a demeanor of being caring but thats really hard to pull of when youre super frustrated like she was. In all honesty I was only going to take a break from the group to sort my feelings and beliefs out from a more distant perspective, but seeing how she flipped like a switch made me run from that cult. I think I still would have left the group because the more I researched the Bible, the more I saw how they twist scripture - but she certainly launched me forward into the decision xD Being a Bible believing Christian now, I feel really bad and pray for them. They don't appear to have been doing their works because they were living out their faith and love of God. They seemed to be doing it out of fear and to avoid hell. Its sad too because what I thought was potentially friendships in Christ ended up being false. I was suspicious that their friendship was being faked from their side but chalked it up to my own social anxiety. But when I think back on my interactions, after now having real friendships based in Christ, they were just saying what they could to keep me around. I was genuinely putting in efforts to be a friend. Cults like this really really mess people up. Luckily I was only apart of their group for a few months. Not years like many of the members.
I'm really sorry you had to go through that, but it's really incredible how the Holy Spirit guided through the whole process. I'm happy at least you saw that girl's reaction as a sign to run away from the cult. Thanks for sharing your story. I know it must not always be easy to share or think about but I appreciate hearing your story.
Came from the ICC and it seems the central leadership stepped down but who knows how true that is. He originally came from ICOC. 😢 sad stuff I’ve experienced there
I'm really sorry to hear that you experienced really sad stuff. I'm glad that it sounds like you are no longer there, but I'm sure it can still be hard to think about that time. Praying for Jesus to continue to heal and lead you throughout your life.
Wow, that's interesting. I'm glad you got out when you did. Were the leaders as harsh in how they treated people, similar to my experience, or was yours different in any way?
I left the ICOC as well but I'm not baptized with them thank god for real they told me I needed to let go of my family idk but I left as soon as I felt that I was getting closer to being on their chain
I fucked around in community college for 5 years finally got my associates and get into a local 4 year school and met one of these groups of course as a 24 year old I was very skeptical I really wanted to trust them but something seemed off. They were very similar to what you described and part of me still wanted friends. I never allowed myself to get to do deep and at that point I just wanted to graduate and I was there to take care of business. I didn’t mean to ditch them on purpose really what ultimately drove me away from them is when I was struggling with Accounting and I was desperate to pass so I just kept going to tutoring instead of hanging out with them. I can understand why people fall into this because it’s presented like friendship and not a hate group. I didn’t think cult until I talked to my mom about it.
@@JordanKranda I had a friend in college who got involved with this group. We were both in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship together, but when she got involved with the ICOC she pretty much abandoned her IV friends and we rarely saw her. They were actually banned from my campus
Many of the abusive methodologies of this church still exist today. I just left the Boston Church of Christ. They have an unwelcome presence on college campuses here. Please do your mental health and your relationship with Jesus a favor and AVOID this church. It is systematically unhealthy in many ways.
Thank you for sharing your story. Kip McKean was asked to resign and step down from leadership in the ICOC in 2002. Then he went and started the ICC, which from the outside looks like it is refusing to evolve. I joined an ICOC in Irvine CA in 2005. I have had many positive and negative experiences, mostly positive. But that’s just my individual story. I respect yours. The older I get the more I understand what I need for my spiritual health. So I know when to say No to commitments. I don’t experience manipulation or isolation. But fellowship is complicated. I have deep friendships where we support each other through tough times. We don’t always have the right things to say to encourage eachother. But we just give each other a lot of grace. But there are immature people and leaders in this and every church that I look into. There are both legalistic people and wise people in my fellowship. I’m striving to be the latter, and I’m learning a lot about wisdom from voices outside my church, especially Catholics like Henri Nouwen and Richard Rohr. The ICOC is actually having a teacher conference at a Catholic Seminary next year. So unfortunately, it’s complicated. I wish everyone’s experience in this church was like mine. If they were all like yours, then I would take my family and go find another church. Few things are that black and white…
I have been to this group a couple of times but, I questioned some of their practices no musical instruments started to get me to question their practices. I asked if they’re born again by asking Jesus into their lives. I noticed that the people in their flesh. They cussed and listened to ungodly music. The flesh and the spirit war against another. I knew right away something was wrong with them and I never returned.
Good Stuff! Interesting story I have. I was asked how their music was after the first service I attended. Told them it was alright with the songs being meaningful and how happy it made me. This was met by people asking me what could be so wrong with the music; using the situation to state I perhaps cared too much about the music; told the music here was the most mellow; "talked down"; etc. Thought the overreactions were a bit weird but this is how the ICC was in everything. Finding reasons to critique churches as lukewarm or coming short while claiming an excuse for everything they did.
I grew up in this group- that’s so interesting what you mentioned about the “pairs”. I had never seen it that way so it was interesting to hear it put this way, but I had definitely seen it from the other perspective- the way we were taught to love bomb and focus on someone who we would “make a disciple” & then train up sounds just like what Malcom may have been trying to do with you. Where did you get the stat about ICOC being only second to Scientology for claims of being a cult? I’m just curious- grew up in it and only recently left so doing a lot of hearing peoples stories :)
It's interesting you said "love bomb", since I now remember hearing about that term after I left. And I don't remember where I read that stat from, but it was something I read right after I left them.
They currently go by the name “Thrive”. Before that, they went by the name "Dream". All part of the Int'l Church of Christ. Yes, very wise to steer clear.
Dude this is hilarious because I was there when this was all going down. I knew Ricky personally and remembered him leading that campus ministry. What was the year if you can remember when this was? Like 2008? Or after?
Hi. Thank you for sharing. I’m a seminary student at Azusa Pacific and I’d love to do an interview with you with regards to your experience for my ICOC report if you are interested. Please let me know. Thank you.
I was approached by them and went to a few "Bible talks" and events over a month before I saw their legalism & control and left! Many insights I have and would love to contribute!
@@JordanKranda I’m not sure if this is something you can answer but how can I tell JW’s about the immortal soul which they don’t believe in? We’ve been meeting at my house for months and they call it a Bible study, which it’s not.
I had a very similar, albeit short story with the ICC (a splinter church of the ICOC founded by Kip). They have a chapter at SJSU; they call themselves THRIVE now. I was with them for two weeks (I attended three of their Bible talks and a couple of their devotional services) until 1. they denied that they were a cult and claimed other churches were persecuting them during that second and last devo i went to and 2. I told my dad my "friends" were trying to push me into going to their church instead of my own. After that, I wanted to focus on my schoolwork (I was falling behind in classes) but they were so pushy on trying to get me to meet up with them that I had to block them on my phone and socials. Just my experience and definitely be careful who you hang out with.😅😅
I joined the ICOC back in 1991. Yeah, shit times. Also approached on a college campus in California by shiny happy people. Didn't feel good about it from day one, but I mostly joined to get them off my back (that didn't work) ultimately they kicked me out. They kept my husband until he left later.
I'm glad you're not involved with them anymore. It's good you got away. I'm praying you find a church community focused on Jesus and that you're doing well.
Been out of the ICOC for four years I did nine years with the organization and man the things I witnessed and saw and felt. I talk it about on my channel even after leaving
I'm really glad you could escape from that situation. It's fantastic that you're sharing your experience. Raising awareness about their harm is important.
I was baptized in 2008, left in 2021. The authoritarian, harsh, bullying practices and lack of love for the lost still persists today in some leaders, and it happened in my congregation. I had visited mainline Churches of Christ before I officially left, and they were nothing like the ICOC. I've been writing a book about all of it that experience. But long story short, there are people who want to know who Jesus is and then end up in a place where they find out just who Jesus isn't...and in the ICOC, their discipling practices are certainly not what Jesus had in mind
You were in the church for a long time. I'm glad you finally got out and that you are writing a book to help others. That's really great to hear. I'm sorry that you had to endure what you had to endure. Glad you came out the other side.
@@JordanKranda I knew nothing of the ICOCs past before I left. only vague terminologies like "after "the letter" which came out in 2003 and basically was supposed to reform the church. and, it in fact did! for some...not all. "this is how we've always done it, so this is how we will" stuck in the hearts of some, including in my own lead evangelist, but he wasn't (believe it or not) as bad as some others ive seen. IPI is now the publishing arm (DPI is no longer there anymore) and I am going to approach them about the book first, because I do have a hunch many will be on board with it...but others in IPI may not be, we'll see. Book 1 (the examination, close to 145 pages) should be done in a week or 2, and I'll be doing book reviews on my channel. book 2 (the autobiography) is way too long (584 pages) so I gotta edit that thing
I was part of the later ICOC. I had mainly good experiences, but ultimately I left. There were good things but like most churches, it wasn't perfect. It did take up your whole life though, literally 7 days a week.
@JordanKranda yea, it turned me off right away and cut all contact, i am an older student, 29. I could see how social manipulation would work on young adults.
Thank you for your video. While I am part of the ICOC and there were good things that happened to me (met my wife 😁), there were also other bad experiences too, since my regional church at the time was very diverse and I didn’t end up with the right group of ppl, I also had my share of hurt unfortunately. For example, I study medicine and am passionate about it, also on my way to become a physician but was repeatedly told that that seeking doctors is not trusting god and that medicine is sinful, and that I should give up especially it takes up so much time away from God on top of it being “sinful”. In a way I can relate and I’m glad that you were able to leave behind a group of people trapped in toxic mentalities. Nevertheless, I pray you will find peace and happiness in another church and that you can also heal. Best wishes to you.
I appreciate your comment. Your words were encouraging. It's wonderful that you met your wife there. I'm sorry to hear about the hurt you experienced. It's great that you were studying medicine. The Church needs physicians like you and Luke (the author of the Gospel of Luke). I hope and pray that you are doing well!
I’ve been in the the ICOC in Boston since 1987 and though there have been many issues throughout the years - I wouldn’t be the person I am today without the impact the church had on my heart & mind - preaching Jesus (and my own daily, personal walk). read about the 1sf century church in 1 and 2nd Corinthians- talk about a mess. However, I don’t mean to diminish the negative impact that people in the ICOC have had on you. I’m saying my journey has been life changing over these many years. I don’t believe that we are the ONLY church - but I do believe we are THE Church. God bless! Thanks for sharing your heart.
@@JordanKranda I stepped to take a leader role in my last year. I began to connect the dots and tried to ask questions, but was always deflected. There was deception,manipulation, and a lot of other things in the system that I thought were weird when I had first joined, but made a lot of sense after I had left.
This is sad. My only question is when Ricky challenged you with using something from the Bible, you said you didn't know that much about the Bible. If you were active in 2 separate churches and invested that much time, how did you not know 1 example from the Bible is my only question?
What is sad is that this happened and you legitimately thought it was a great group. Then bam, they blind sighted you and I can't imagine how betrayed you must have felt.
I actually watch through your entire video, and could not fins any reason why you call them a cult. In my conviction, if i call someone false or cult, have to prove it from the scripture why they are so. Acts 17:11 NIV [11] Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. But sadly i just don't see a single scripture reference from you. I only see that you love yourself and your opinion more than anything else.
They do lie and deceive a lot. They were so hateful to people when I was around them. Still hurts to think about it. Glad that we have hope in Jesus though.
I think you miss understood. Its not bad to be “called” a Christian, its just that word came much later. The word disciple is much more prevalent. Secondly, a disciple implies deeper devotion, a learner. Where christian, which was not invented by the church, means a Christ follower. Its just in today modern culture everyone wants to be called “christian” but their life does not demonstrate it.
"much later" you mean in Antioch, in Acts 11, in 34 AD? God you people are so ignorant. You claim to be the remnant of the first century church and yet you know nothing about it. You claim to be ancient yet your whole theology rides on a thoroughly modern, contrived/perceived distinction between two synonyms. This is cultish semanticism
you don’t know your word. Prior to Jesus, there were animal sacrifices that reconciled the Jews to God, Jesus was that sacrifice. Both groups of people that were reconciled should be good depending on what they did to be right with God.
JOHN 8 V 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Interesting video. One useful scripture for anyone in the same situation as you were, hope it helps. Acts 15: 15- 17 states that God will take a people for His name called by His name. They will be imitating Christ to the best of their ability, since this is what being a Christian means. However not many religions choose to use the Father's name, indeed it is actually banned in some organisations ! Jesus however used it , we know this from his statement at John 17: 25, 26. Here he connected the use of the Father's name with his followers having love among themselves. This love would be international, rather than national.
No one is trying to “isolate from family” or control. That is a false accusation. There is numerous scriptures and personal examples of what happens when young Christian still participate with their non believer friends. Many get swayed back to their old ways, leaving the faith. Many get mocked, ridiculed by friends and family which leads to them, again leaving the faith. Ill be fair yes, back in 2000-2006 things were much more heavy handed. Those have been long changed. But all in all, this is a far cry from calling ICOC a cult. We just live in a individualistic society, its “my wants” its “don’t let anyone tell you what you can’t do”, etc. so the word “cult” is thrown around so easily. Its more of a cope out to deflect personal responsibility.
One thing you can't deny!!!! everything that ICOC teaches is in the word of God and Paul did it; He exhorted, corrected and that is care and love. That's what ICI does. Always willing to know whether we are doing the will of Jesus Christ or our fallen human nature. A church that does not speak out about sin may not have the holy spirit acting. In James it says confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. James 5;15-16
A lot of what you shared friend is something we as followers of Jesus must do. We need to find a dear close brother in Christ that will hold us accountable, yes some of the things you shared are concerning. It will be good to have a friend in your life you walk with, as scripture says “as iron sharpens iron, so one man does another”. Also from one last encouragement, I hope that wasn’t their names… Anyways thanks for the video.
I agree that on the surface, certain practices like accountability partners, consistent Bible reading, community, and preaching repentance seemed positive. But their motives were wrong. They weren't doing it for Jesus; they were doing it to impress their leaders, themselves, or to boast later. Just like the Pharisees Jesus encountered, who did good things on the surface but for the wrong reasons, most of the people I met in this cult were the same.
The International Churches of Christ (which was a schism off the Mainline Churches of Christ) is significantly more legalistic and problematic. They took the Mainline Churches of Christ theology and tossed on a lot more requirements and demands (a.k.a. "added teeth").
I’m sorry that you had a negative experience with the particular group you joined. True disciples shouldn’t act hateful, cause dissension or discord, or judge others for their unbelief (which is completely hypocritical). Also, the ICOC is lukewarm, this is why the ICC was created.
As a current member of the ICOC, some of my fellowship are lukewarm. Others are passionate and are actually biblically based. So saying that the ICOC as a whole is lukewarm is flatly incorrect…
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 The ICC, ICOC, and even many Campbellism Churches Of Christ are toxic. I would further add John MacArthur's church to almost being on this list due to their authoritarian ways!
I can’t speak for the people and how they interacted with you, But when people become disciples its common to confess to one another. Maybe at this point you were young and still hadn’t gotten to the trust point. Or maybe that one person approached to strong. James 5:16 NIV [16] Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. Galatians 6:2 NIV [2] Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. This is not uncommon or unique to ICOC. What I believed happened is you interpreted the person’s good intentions as bad. The person you met up with was trying to look out for you, but maybe they were bad at doing it. This is not unique.
You should really try reading that in context of that starting in verse 14 and keep in mind the little titles your used to seeing in your bible that break up the text into paragraphs are not present in the original Greek. Your actually supposed to confess to the presbyters/elders (these are the guys directly under the Bishop) - some would say the Priest... Unfortunately under the Kip McKean model of discipleship, you'll end up getting garbage advice to do with sin as the guy discipling you is likely a spiritual child barely further along the walk then you are. If it's something your really struggling with the best advice you're likely to get is to "just be more fired up" or "you're spiritually weak and need to repent".
@HOSPlTALLER Appreciate the context you bring into our discussions and you are largely correct. Some key points to think about: A.) Paul is speaking for a certain church and situation and issues. Getting legalistic on how confessions and vulnerability should be shown is both not genuine and not Biblical. B.) The ICC & ICOC often claim other churches are lukewarm and they are the only ones who call out which is largely false. C.) Just calling out sins itself isn't the point of these verses; but they're also about challenging all of us to see hypocrisy. Everyone can find reasons to callout everyone! D.) Many ICC & ICOC members get put under this system and only end up hiding things better from leadership or end up leaving more.
I am part of the international Church of Christ in Salvador-BA-BR and everything that is taught comes from the word of God. To speak ill of a biblical church is to sin against the Holy Spirit of God.
@anitaferreira Many churches and organizations claim everything they teach is from the Word Of God. The ICC & ICOC are often the ones who claim other churches are lukewarm and not emphasizing or teaching from the Word Of God while they use many Bible verses in wrong context to justify control over members. Also they may not say this much but emphasize loyalty to the organization even more than Christ effectively!
I was part of the ICOC church in Richmond, Virginia, USA for 12 years. I can say with certainty that the leaders are mostly narcissistic, the d-times and Bible "study series" are designed to make/keep you emotionally dependent, and the hierarchical leadership structure is there to control members, not to teach them. They are dedicated more to the opinions of their pantheon of "evangelists" than the Bible or morality. I genuinely hope you learn that as I have and escape, and find the courage to be yourself, because they stripped that from me and it was so hard to find it.
Look I get you're trying to make an interesting video and all, but it seems like you're reaching a bit if I'm being objective.
Your initial concerns were they called themselves "disciples"? The word christian is only the bible 3 times. Nowadays it definitely has a connotation with being a nominal, passive christian. Disciple is an active word, meaning follower/ student. Way better term to describe yourself if you take your faith seriously imo.
Your second concern was that they thought 'the modern church was bad'... you genuinely disagree with this? Jesus constantly warns about false teachers/false doctrine. He even made statements about false christians - read Matthew 6:21-23. I see no problem here.
Next, "Malcolm" was asking you about sin in your life and trying to help you with it? Read 1 John 1:9
Your fourth concern was they said "no one outside of the icoc was saved". I've been in the church 20 years and only heard people preach against this.
Your fifth concern was they reached out to people by getting into their interests, Paul literally did this. Read 1 Corinthians 9:20-22.
Your sixth concern was "it was a main thing to try and bring new people into the group" - yeah, it's called making disciples and we're all commanded to do it as Christians. Matthew 28:18-20.
I'm sure some of these young guys made mistakes/sinned, but this happens in every church... I'm honestly asking here with an open heart, what did you see/ experience that was unbiblical or false doctrine?
I didn't try to make the video interesting; I just wanted to share my story. Before I respond to your points, let me explain about the wrong teachings in the group:
The main false doctrine they taught was rejecting the significance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Instead of promoting salvation through faith, they pressured the group to lie to people on campus by falsely claiming they had shared interests with people on campus to convince them to join our group. While followers of Jesus naturally share their faith, ICOC explicitly taught that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was just a topic of discussion, and salvation wasn't secured by it. Instead, salvation was contingent upon performing good works. This undermines the essence of Jesus' sacrifice; if salvation isn't attained through faith, then Jesus' sacrifice becomes meaningless. Once saved by His grace, transformation occurs, and good works naturally follow. However, preaching salvation through good works contradicts the Gospel and distorts Jesus' teachings and actions.
Now, to address your responses:
1. I don’t care about the worldly connotation associated with the term 'Christian'. The word literally means to profess Christianity, being baptized, or believing in Christianity, not in the definitions imposed by the world. Don’t get the world power to make you run from the word “Christian”.
2. The modern church isn't lost; despite its flaws, Jesus continues to guide and use His church in significant ways. Read the Gospel.
3. Malcolm's focus wasn't on addressing sin or genuine care for people like myself; it was primarily about reporting back to Ricky with a checklist of 'good deeds' performed. That’s not what 1 John 1:9 is saying. Read the Gospel.
4. The false doctrine was consistently reiterated in every Bible talk.
5. Paul, in his missionary efforts, adapted his approach depending on his audience, but he never compromised the truth of the Gospel. Lying, as practiced by the ICOC, contradicts Jesus and the Gospel. Read the Gospel.
6. It's weird to attend a college class with the sole purpose of lying to people by saying their interests are yours with the goal of them attending your unbiblical group later that week, especially when the main objective, as seen in Malcolm's case, wasn't centered on genuine faith but rather on pleasing Ricky. True discipleship is anchored in Jesus, not in personal agendas. This situation wasn't about Jesus; it was about fulfilling Ricky's desires. Read the Gospel.
I hope you'll leave the ICOC and find a church that focuses on genuine faith and true discipleship, centered on what Jesus has done for us. True faith changes us, making us eager to share the joy of knowing Jesus with others, without resorting to lies, deception, and manipulative behavior.
@@JordanKranda oh boy. Here we go. 😂 Jesus called belief a work. James says faith without deeds is dead. Give one example of someone praying Jesus into their heart as an act of salvation - you won’t find any. You need to dig A LOT deeper into why baptism is ESSENTIAL for salvation - and the work is one in God working - NOT the water working. Just like your prayer is a work in Jesus working not your prayer (which is a work). I don’t have time to dig into all the scriptures to prove my point. Your mind is already made up as is mine. If a person isn’t a baptized disciple they are not making it to heaven. Sorry if that upsets you - but truth is truth. All the best.
Such a weird comment. It's all over the place, but, regardless, thanks for watching the view and sharing your perspective. @@gainknowledgeandinsight
@@JordanKranda study your Bible and it will make sense. 😂 take care.
Hey Jordan, watched your video, you seem like a genuine dude and it was very interesting to watch your video to say the least. While I am not in the ICOC I am in the ICC the current movement of churches, that Kip leads. There was a split in 2001-2002 (Unrelated to your video, but just so you know where I am coming from). Only thing I wanted to bring up on here is that the bible does teach that we must be Jesus's disciple, referring to yourself as a Christian (If you are a disciple) isn't bad, but we must be disciples. Here's why: " To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32. We see In order to know the truth, we must be Jesus's disciple, but in order to be his disciple we must hold to Jesus's teachings. At the end of the day, I can't speak for how your experience was, but the bible does say we have to be disciples to be saved. I pray and hope you see where this message is coming from - Praying for you and wish you the best.@@JordanKranda
I’m in the process of leaving. It’s hard to cut ties because I’ve known these people for a while, but for my spiritual health, I need to.
That's awesome that you've taken the step to leave. I'm praying that God gives you strength and encouragement throughout that process. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
the sad thing about that Brandon is that, that is done deliberately. There's a degree of isolation in the group making it harder for members to leave. it's like when Peter asked Christ where shall we go. Whatever you chose just know that God has your back. Godspeed
Run as fast as you can!
Hey have you left now?im one of them and been wanting to leave
@@user-hp3di8sz9d Thanks everybody for your prayers and advice! Hey, yes I left. I told them I didn't believe what they believed about salvation, them believing that you need faith in Jesus plus physical water baptism to be saved, and I cut ties. I didn't realize how much of a burden the cult was on me, but God in His grace empowered me to leave and now I'm resting in His freedom from that, and recovering as well. You have no allegiance to anyone there, only to Christ upon you believing in Him. I pray God simply empowers you by His Spirit to leave, and He will, I can attest. God bless.
Recently gone through some of these Bible “studies/talks” and the main point that really messed me up was when the leader of the study had said you aren’t saved unless you were a disciple and that my baptism was not of God. One night before there was another study I had prayed asking for discernment of their spirits and if it is good for me and I also asked the Lord to take away anyone and everyone that was not supposed to be in my life. The next morning I continued to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide me and as I went to the study, they began to talk about the importance of being a disciple to save my life and that all my family members are not saved. I told him about my grandfather being a pastor and he stated my grandpa is not saved because he never told me about what they were teaching. As I left and throughout the rest of the day I just had a deep conviction that this was so wrong and I immediately cut ties. They really do know how to misuse scripture to back their claims. Praise God I was led away! And I pray many become aware of their deception.
I'm truly sorry you went through that, but it's amazing how God guided you through the entire experience. I'm thankful you had the courage and clarity of mind to let God lead you through it.
Hey MoochieMan15 -- Did they follow a lot of this sequence?
docs.google.com/document/d/1yOTpWmd1RIodW_M6gQXFUX03hgBNNlpvST8Lg1k-wdU/edit?usp=sharing
This is continually happening in Boston and in ministries all across the US. I became a bible talk leader and got a glimpse into the leadership ideology and learned very quickly that it isn’t healthy. Its unhealthy from the top down. Many leaders are generational and carry over the mispractices of their parents. Claims that this church is “different” than it used to be are false. My advice is to find another local church that clearly teaches the bible and is very transparent about leadership and beliefs. Avoid the ICOC and ICC.
The exact same thing had happened to me. I can’t believe how similar our stories are. God gave me a dream that gave me all the answers I need ❤
Had the same experience, when you objective ask questions using the Bible to disagree with them they start saying focus on this verse stop mentioning that verse. If we are talking about the bible you can't tell me your interpretation is the truth and the rest ignore it.
Well happy to say the kicked me out of the study and said I wasn't humble enough to learn
Thanks for sharing! I was in the cult for 14 years in North Carolina. I've been free for almost 20 years now, and I've never been happier!
Oh wow. That's awesome that you was able to get out of the group. Any tips or advice for people who are looking to do the same thing you've done?
That is deception for you. Thinking you are happier now apart of God’s church is delusion and deception.
@@BrandonYoungMusic, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! Just like a mind-controlled cultist, telling a total stranger what they’re REALLY thinking and feeling! First of all, piss all the way off with that shit! I determine my happiness, not your imaginary apocalyptic blood cult god. Secondly, I well and truly pity you, and hope you someday understand the truth of your folly.
@@BrandonYoungMusic dang your fully brainwashed! Gods church is bigger than the ICOC or ICC!
@BrandonYoungMusic He is a part of God's church. First and foremost, the Church is a body of believers. Point out where in the Bible it says the ICC or ICOC. Secondly, he is in the church and actually in a good healthy one. How you treat him as not being in a church because he isn't ICC or ICOC is perfect example of how they are. And if you listen fully, he is actually sad for the lost in those garbage dumpster cults.
A ICC on my campus almost got me last year,was lucky to wake up and get out
Really glad you woke up and got out! Praise God for that!
I was a member of this group from 1995 - 2006. I was essentially the perfect prey - fresh out of high school, about to start college, parents recently divorced, moving around, desperate for some sense of family and belonging. I also dealt with ADHD (though not knowing about it at the time), as well as major depression & anxiety. Given all of this, I desperately wanted to please people. It was such a dark period in my life - and I haven't been able to commit to a church since, and it took a long time before I felt I could trust another person again.
I almost joined the ICOC. I had the same experiences and at one point, when they got what I call "gangster" with me. My mind and body knew I was in trouble and I started having fevers head aches, panic attacks and a host of other reaction synonymous with trauma. I'm glad I got away. It was horrible, really horrible.
Oh wow. I'm really sorry to hear what you had to endure. If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean that they got "gangster" with you?
@@JordanKranda Okay.. It was all smiles, hugs and warmth until they took me through that bible study of theirs. It was a small house next to a university and there were something like 20 male college students living in a tiny house. That right there was a red flag. About 5 members sat me down at a table in a dark kitchen and it was set up like an intense interrogation. They took me through versus like 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 28, 19-20 and whole host of other scripture designed to put the human mind in a panic about the potential consequence of going to hell. We would read versus and in a very sharp business like manner would ask me; "What do you think of that..." and would use vivid examples to illustrate what those passages mean by their churches standards adding their own embellishments to the word. I even remember their leader ripping my bible out of my hand and having me read his because my bible was a Catholic Bible and they of course use the NIV. I remember 2 of them drove me home one time and they both got into a HEATED argument. One was accusing the other of not believing enough in the return on Christ. One said in an intense tone to the other "SO IF HE CAME BACK TOMMOROW! WOULD YOUR SOUL BE READY!" I have a few more examples but it's like I said. One minute smiles the next minute serious intensity.
@@robertoacevedo3805That sounded more like a military interrogation. And like a military guy screaming at the recruit.
The way they act they may as well have been.@@pcpxbotendorastermace9948
It's horrible to hide sins and have relationships that don't please God and to have a friend to show us the biblical truth. Proverbs 17;17
Thank you so much for sharing this. I almost joined Kip Mckean's new movement, "ICC" but I am grateful that I ended up not joining them. I won't go into detail, but a couple of the ladies ended up ambushing and confronting me in 2021 in a public space and it really scared me, so I've never been able to bring myself to be apart of them since. I'm the happiest I've ever been, I've grown in my faith, I have a solid Christian community now and I'm in such a great place holistically too!😊
Oh wow. I love hearing how Jesus brought you to the place you're in now. What a blessing. Praise Jesus for that. I'm really sorry you had to go through what you did, but it's amazing to hear where you're at now. Thanks for sharing a part of your story!
Love Hearing This!
I never joined the ICC/ICOC but went to a few attended a few events over a month with this cult mistakenly thinking it was another evangelical Christian group when I decided to cut off all contact afyer seeing what they did. I did go to a few events a month later trying to rescue two moron friends who had been manipulated into participation and to ask out a girl who had fallen into this garbage cult.
Some toxic and bullshit I saw were:
I.) They would take the Bible verse where Jesus explains how believers must place Him above family & friends. They falsely implied your willingness to do this could be proved by joining the ICC/ICOC and isolating from friends & family who weren't members. They additionally implied loyalty to the ICC/ICOC above everything as a good way to demonstrate this.
II.) They would imply themselves as the only true church and accuse every other church of being lukewarm. Furthermore, they would find the slightest flaw or stereotype to rail against any other church as evil without even genuine consideration and while turning a blind eye to ICC/ICOC members having the same problems.
III.) They would praise themselves as a diverse church which was often a result of mostly recruiting disenfranchised, lesser educated, minorities, and vulnerable people. The ICC/ICOC took advantage of them and their leadership at the very top didn't reflect any of their members.
IV.) They emphasized baptism into their church as necessity for acceptance.
V.) Speaking out against any aspect of their church is often met with accusations of being a very negative person and that the person has some spiritual shortcomings.
VI.) Members are encouraged to do anything for the purpose of recruiting other members. They are asked to be overly friendly and essentially lovebomb others who are prospective members or visitors. Anyone rejecting or leaving the church are portrayed as infidels and many members will slowly break off all contact. Much testimony exists from those who left after being longtime members; and how virtually all of their relationships ended shortly afterwards.
VII.) The ICC/ICOC discourages members from dating non-members. Their leadership has sort of a certification and endorsement process of this.
VIII.) Leaders are often paraded around as quasi-celebrities or cults of personality. Those who don't treat them as such are implied as ignorant or lacking.
As a Christian on my own at college, my biggest fear is accidently joining a cult, and I know that may sound silly but it truly is. Thank you for the video, sharing some red flags to look out for and for sharing your experience.
in Matthew 9;36 the crowd wants healing and financial blessing and that is not what ici offers. This church offers is to be a true disciple, talk about Jesus Christ and be meek and humble and love your enemies and pray for your friends. If you are willing to do this, go back to ICI or come to ICI, particularly they showed me the truth of being a follower of Jesus Christ. And it's not easy because I have to deny myself. And Christ calls us to do this. Luke 9;23 Jesus said to everyone: - If anyone wants to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me.
Never doubt the Holy Spirit. I'm so glad you listened to the Holy Spirit in you and left the group. You're so blessed to have a caring older brother who watches out for you, too.
Amen. My brother really allowed himself to be led by the Holy Spirit. I'm grateful to have him as my older brother.
ICOC not only teaches that they are the only way to heaven, but that water baptism is a requirement for membership and therefore also for salvation. I grew up in the "old" Church of Christ. Similar beliefs, just not as culty,
I didn't get further enough in to the learn that, so thanks for sharing that. Was Kip McKean over the church you grew up in or was that a different one?
@@JordanKranda It was the traditional CofC dating back to Alexander Campbell. Kip came out of this tradition.
Yes. Baptism is essential. Just read John 3:5. Don’t ignore the truth.
@@BrandonYoungMusic baptism is essential not water baptism. The water itself is a symbol 1 Peter 3:21-22
The early Christians did use full immersion.
Christ himself was water baptised in the Jordan River.
John the Baptist baptised in water.
Later baptisms included acceptance of Holy Spirit and the redeeming power of Christ's death and subsequent resurrection.
Jesus commanded baptism at Matthew 28: 19, 20
I almost joined the ICOC in 1999. Freshman in college. Like many who had these same stories, the encounter was simple enough - inviting, welcoming, nice. Went to a few Bible talks. Had the same weird observations (except they didn’t mind being called Christians). The first red flag was when they told me my baptism wasn’t valid. The studies continued, (the one-on-ones), the Bible Talks, weekend service. But same weird vibes (calling me a guest and saying one day I would be family), and that’s not how church went in my life. The breaking point was the “sin study,” and it felt too invasive (what stopped them from using my sins to blackmail me, ridicule me, gaslight me?). I decided there would be no more studies, and told a member (who was the only girl in the group and would have been my discipler) that I was out. It had to have been about 3-4 weeks or so.
Thanks for sharing your story! It’s really interesting to me how similar and dissimilar your story is from my story. I’m happy to hear that you got out and that it didn’t take you long to figure out something was wrong. That’s great to hear.
Have you ever once been objective enough to consider the possibility that your baptism might not be valid? Like even once considered it from a purely objective lens. Ultimately we submit to scripture and not our own opinions or feelings. Be guided by his words, not your feelings or lived experience.
@@BrandonYoungMusic maybe your baptism is incorrect? the problem is that you guys always believe every baptism outside your church is incorrect! Satan get thee behind me!
No, Brandon. And even if I did, that should be for me to decide, not for someone else to judge on. It was manipulative and I didn’t fall for it.
@@nellyb.9744 you’re very perceptive. I wish I didn’t fall for it when they told me that
They are a cult for sure.
I had gone to one of the ICOC churches for a few years. I loved their worship sessions with a focus on participation and their use of what I consider to this day rather good hymns. I did notice they were a bit weird, the pastor seems like he was just there to preach on Sundays but didn't really have any leadership in the church. They also spent a lot of time calling out people in the congregation for their positive things, which is not a bad thing but I later realized it was a way of positively reinforcing total commitment to their church. I did find it odd they stressed baptism and just chalked it up to a quirk (as most churches have). Boy when I started going through the membership is when it started coming together for me. They were cherry picking verses, and carefully avoiding scriptures in the same paragraphs. I remember asking them "Do you not believe people in other churches are save?" to which they gave me a long-winded answer that avoided saying 'no' or yes for that matter. They then didn't accept my baptism at other churches which I don't mind doing, but realistically is not how Christians are saved, it is an after the fact kinda thing. I had already a very strong understanding of the bible so their arguments fell apart pretty quickly. I left and never went back. Some tried to reach out to me but they got tired of me preaching to them. They are people who are wolves in their congregations but my experience was that there are many more people who just want to do the right thing, they are just doing it for the wrong people/reasons. "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." -Matthew 9:36
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. It makes sense that they want to encourage good behavior by mentioning people. That's really interesting. I'm happy you knew the Bible well, so they couldn't change your mind like they did with me at first. Let's be glad that God helped you through it. Thanks again for telling your story.
Contradictory what you say! Why do they care about our lives in ICI, formerly Icoc. I always had someone to show me the truth in the Bible. To this day, I have someone who helps me with the Bible, not with beautiful words to please my heart, but to bring me closer to God and not closer to my bad human desires, which satisfy us, but are misleading.
This is almost identical to my experience! I was approached by the ICC in 2021 when I was looking into Christianity and religion seriously for the first time and also dealing with some painful things. I spent around a month with them as well as going to another Church, until I eventually stopped going to the ICC meetings altogether after one of their Bible studies where they told me my grandmother was going to hell or something of the sort. They said other things that didn't sit right with me as well and eventually I broke down and my friends and family made me realise what was going on.
Anyone who isn’t saved, according to the criteria set by the Lord himself in the Bible, will be judged and sent to hell
@@parker9163 imo nobody knows for sure who’s going to hell and who isn’t, and I’m almost 100% sure God wouldn’t want us going around telling people they’re going to hell. If you’re Christian, the only “criteria” afaik is believing in Jesus. Not sure why you commented this.
@@irinaimme They told that, given the many scriptures describing who goes and doesn’t go to hell, she is.
Not trying to be harsh or rude but that’s the truth, take it up with God.
@@parker9163 are you part of the ICC?
I’m sorry you had to experience this. SMH I almost joined in college as well. But I left because the doctrine did not sit well with me. I was fighting to let their doctrine in. I left after 3 months. That’s also when the love bombing started to decline which made me feel alone and furthered my will to leave.
I'm really happy you ended up leaving. It's interesting that we both left after about 3 months. I bet it's been something to process for you after leaving, as it was for me, but I'm glad we both got out.
@@JordanKranda
WHO'S ORDAINED TO PREACH??
(Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God
(Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord
(Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets
(Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER
(Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord
(☝️why are you attempting to preach God's word - why??)
@@READOBADIAH give it a rest! take youre cherry picked out of context proof text somewhere else
I was SO close to getting baptized in the ICC and becoming a full member but through deep prayer God immediately told me the truth about this “church” and revealed their lies to me through videos/posts like this!! I’m very glad you were able to get out and still retain your faith, “churches” like these can be really detrimental to one’s faith and can cause one to walk away from the faith entirely, but I’m very glad you were still able to maintain your relationship with Christ as that is the most important thing of all.
That's amazing to hear how Jesus provided for you! Thank you for sharing. Your kind words really encouraged me. Jesus has been so faithful to me throughout that whole situation, and I'm grateful to still be following Him. Thank you for your comment.
@@JordanKranda Amen!
So true and Amen to that! I believe that it was a test in my case and I believe that I passed the test because I could have walked away from the faith but if anything it made me want to search other communities and it did strengthen my faith. I was originally going to balance this church with my current Church but now that I went to my current church I immediately knew that I had to quit the other one because I just felt a huge difference because it felt more loving accepting and positive. Nobody being overly nosy or passive-aggressive or making assumptions that I left the faith because I left their Church. Then I also started seeing videos like this and as well as researching COC I found out so many people who left the cult on Facebook support group and also on here and I found that my experiences were very similar even though it wasn't severe but it was severe enough for me to leave!
I attended a few events over a month with this cult mistakenly thinking it was another evangelical Christian group when I decided to cut off all contact. I did go to a few events a month later attempting to rescue two friends who had been manipulated into participations and ask out a girl who had fallen into this garbage cult.
Some toxic and bullshit I saw were:
I.) They would take the Bible verse where Jesus explains how believers must place Him above family & friends. They falsely implied your willingness to do this could be proved by joining the ICC/ICOC and isolating from friends & family who weren't members. They additionally implied loyalty to the ICC/ICOC above everything as a good way to demonstrate this.
II.) They would imply themselves as the only true church and accuse every other church of being lukewarm. Furthermore, they would find the slightest flaw or stereotype to rail against any other church as evil without even genuine consideration and while turning a blind eye to ICC/ICOC members having the same problems.
III.) They would praise themselves as a diverse church which was often a result of mostly recruiting disenfranchised, lesser educated, minorities, and vulnerable people. The ICC/ICOC took advantage of them and their leadership at the very top didn't reflect any of their members.
IV.) They emphasized baptism into their church as necessity for acceptance.
V.) Speaking out against any aspect of their church is often met with accusations of being a very negative person and that the person has some spiritual shortcomings.
VI.) Members are encouraged to do anything for the purpose of recruiting other members. They are asked to be overly friendly and essentially lovebomb others who are prospective members or visitors. Anyone rejecting or leaving the church are portrayed as infidels and many members will slowly break off all contact. Much testimony exists from those who left after being longtime members; and how virtually all of their relationships ended shortly afterwards.
VII.) The ICC/ICOC discourages members from dating non-members. Their leadership has sort of a certification and endorsement process of this.
VIII.) Leaders are often paraded around as quasi-celebrities or cults of personality. Those who don't treat them as such are implied as ignorant or lacking.
IX.) They would claim that other churches were lukewarm in rebuking bad behavior and such wasn't them. Funny thing is that from hearing ex-members who've left they are more concerned with how that rebuke is delivered than actual effectiveness; used to test & breakdown healthy boundaries with others; not realize the context of rebuking others or asking who is the one delivering rebukes; claim such was intended with love when it was more for the ICC/ICOC organization ultimately.
Just some of what I saw and would love to hear your perspectives on....
I agree with everything you say here. I was in this church too back in 1989 to 1992.
I even moved into a 'sisters flat'. Dating was only allowed with other established members, no outsiders, if you owned a property, they wanted to turn it into a sisters or brothers flat, if youndidnt have enough money for the weekly quote - meeting.
Always belittling and made to feel low and how we are disappointing God,
If we didnt reach our ratio
of people to
evangelise to - meeting.
No new converts? - meeting.
If you spend too much time with your physical family - meeting.
In the sermons, to prove points of Godliness, they would publicly embarrass other members for their failings.
It didn't feel right after 3 years there, living with them and commiting my life there.
Controlling what we do and how we say things was like living with narcissists.
The church was on the telly alot in a negative cult way, the doors were locked and no one allowed in after the sermon started. Very defensive people.
I got out.
25 years Later I found my way to God, I repented my sins, and guess what? God blesses me everyday. My faith in the Lord never wavered, he gave me the strength to get out, being a child of God is not woe on woe, its repentance and forgiveness and Love and learning Gods word.
Thats just my memories on this from 30 years ago.
May The Lord bless you and guide you always. Amen 🙏
Good thing you got out before you literally went all the way (being baptized and an official member). I was a member for 8 1/2 months in a campus ministry in the mid 90's and boy do I wish a close family member or friend would've gave me a heads up, I would've never wasted almost a year of my life on this toxic cult. I salute your older brother for researching, advising, and being there for you.
Yea, I'm really blessed to have my brother give me a heads up on this. And, if I may, what made you finally leave the group after almost 9 months? I'm glad you didn't stay in for much longer. Thanks for sharing a part of your story.
Just remember, if you love Jesus you will obey his commands. Read the New Testament it’s clear what sacrifices must be made to be saved. You can’t remain wicked and also be saved.
@@parker9163 Jesus commands us not to join demonic cults like the ICOC or ICC because they are blasphemous to his power and nature
Too bad you missed out! You almost had an opportunity to experience a healthy dose of guilt, shame, trauma, and potentially anxiety and depression. 😂
hahah. I'm grateful i missed out, since that sounds terrible. haha.
@@JordanKrandaAmen! Glad I missed out as well. Feel sorry for those manipulated enough to experience! Part of me sees how foolish and idiotic such is; but how vulnerable they must have been for the ICOC & ICC to take advantage.
Great sharing brother. I joined as a college freshmen and stayed 21 years. Finally out. Figuring it all out. Proud of you. ❤️❤️❤️
I really appreciate your encouragement. I'm glad you ended up getting out yourself. I'm really happy for you. Congrats.
@thegolfbois1350 ❤❤❤ Amen!
I was getting into the bible study with my wife and I got out as fast as I could. They are toxic and inhuman
Glad you and your wife were able to get out really fast. That's great to hear.
I was in it for a few years. Glad I got out!
So basically nothing has changed. Noted. Thanks for the video.
Were you at one time in this group?
Were you also in the group or attended events and or "Bible talks" they hosted?
Thank you for your story. I share a very similar story when one of the cult elders chewed me out as "blasphemous" when I transitioned from ICOC to Presbyterianism. These guys have no idea what the Word needs to be spoken in love and not self-righteousness. This Ricky guy clearly advocates Kip McKean's toxic "one true church" theology and thinks like a true Pharisees condemning anyone not like them.
Romans 14:3-44: The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
I really appreciate you sharing part of our story. I'm sorry that you had to hear them call you blasphemous. That must have been hard, but I'm glad to hear that Jesus led you out of their cult. That's great news. And yes, that Ricky guy was definitely advocating that terrible theology. Have a blessed day.
I have been in this Church in South Africa for 11 years! Raised 3 kids and true very very destructive I still have Subconscious beliefs that holds me back in life and I am 55 years old now.
Never never let anyone get into your mind like that! Especially when you are young and vulnerable. But, today I see it as part of my life purpose and path as I learnt to love and accept myself just as I am. A loooong story and very difficult road, as I went through 2x divorces but do not miss one friend I that church. If I look back now I was happier when I left the church the best years of my life even though my marriage did not make it because we built it on the most Rediculous and old fashioned teachings it wrecked us. There were also suicides at that time.
My sister is still in the church and she is happy but. I never had time to focus on something for myself as I had 3 kids and with all the church activities so never learnt how to survive in the world out here. Even my kids cannot understand me today. They have no idea. But anyway it is the past now and all we have is now! Today I do not want anything to do with religion. I run!! 😂 But I am a very sensitive empathic person and this is why I experienced it as very traumatic and spiritual abuse. But everyone has there own experience I guess. My parents died when I was young and I believed (as I was thought) that they are in hell 😪 so I was always crying and never felt good enough when I was a "disciple'.
Thanks for sharing! ❤❤
ruclips.net/video/OAkGXKxDU0E/видео.htmlsi=8TzMSptqQQmERr3i
Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate your openness. It’s clear you faced a lot of hardship in that church. While I wish you’d stayed with Christianity, I’m glad you got out of that tough situation. Thanks again for sharing-I'm happy you moved on from them.
So true man. They shipwrecked my faith, I’m glad God got me out of there.
Thank you, Jordan, for sharing your experiences with us. I encourage you to be faithful to our Lord. Unfortunately, we will rub shoulders with people who are being misled and who, unwittingly perhaps, are misleading others. Through it all, I encourage you to follow Jesus. He alone will be our judge. This is coming from a Christian who is almost 70 and have seen a lot in my life and have, through friends who left this movement, gotten to know a little about them. May God bless you, Miles.
I’m glad more people are opening up about this. Very similar story nearly 3 decades ago now. Same tactics, what a mind job. And in the name of Christ. Doubly horrible.
I'm also glad to be hearing more people open up to this, too. I'm glad you got out when you did 3 decades ago. Thanks for your comment!
@madimakes I am blessed many people are opening up and speaking on this! So blessed you got out of that dumpster cult!
I was a member of this so called "church" quite a long time ago. At the end of the 80ies the came ober to Europe to "missionare" he ppl. over here. I'vr met Kip and his younger brother Randy, personaly, back then... It took me more than to yesrs to realisiert what this Group intents were all about: mindgames, Manipulation and at least, but mainly getting after your MONEY!
Hey
So i was baptized when i was 16 and i met this girl she's a member of icc in Sweden. So she asked me for Bible study and i said yes. So i started going but the problem was like i started doing disciplining Bible study. So it was like they don't expect another baptism unless it with them. I grew up in very religious home so i went and asked my dad coz i kinda lost my way when i moved out. So he told me i don't need to get baptized again. All i need is to repent etc but the girl was saying other things. And the love bomb is real 😅😅. So i left efter
I'm glad you left and yea, they also talked to me about getting baptized again, as well. Thanks for sharing a part of your story!
I was attending their bible talks and going to their weekly group events (which was exhausting as an introvert but I really wanted to give it my all and be a part of their family-like dynamic). I started studying the bible for myself and seeking truth and started feeling more and more weird about them. I also noticed if I missed church for something they got really really inquisitive/almost judgmental (even though one of those times was to go to a friends church for just that weekend...)
Sure enough when I told my partner in the group that I was feeling really overwhelmed and needed to stop going (after being pressured to get baptized and tell all my secrets and live ONLY the way they TELL me to) she became noticeably angry. Not caring like I expected. Angry. I felt like she was trying to give a demeanor of being caring but thats really hard to pull of when youre super frustrated like she was.
In all honesty I was only going to take a break from the group to sort my feelings and beliefs out from a more distant perspective, but seeing how she flipped like a switch made me run from that cult. I think I still would have left the group because the more I researched the Bible, the more I saw how they twist scripture - but she certainly launched me forward into the decision xD
Being a Bible believing Christian now, I feel really bad and pray for them. They don't appear to have been doing their works because they were living out their faith and love of God. They seemed to be doing it out of fear and to avoid hell.
Its sad too because what I thought was potentially friendships in Christ ended up being false. I was suspicious that their friendship was being faked from their side but chalked it up to my own social anxiety. But when I think back on my interactions, after now having real friendships based in Christ, they were just saying what they could to keep me around. I was genuinely putting in efforts to be a friend. Cults like this really really mess people up. Luckily I was only apart of their group for a few months. Not years like many of the members.
I'm really sorry you had to go through that, but it's really incredible how the Holy Spirit guided through the whole process. I'm happy at least you saw that girl's reaction as a sign to run away from the cult. Thanks for sharing your story. I know it must not always be easy to share or think about but I appreciate hearing your story.
Came from the ICC and it seems the central leadership stepped down but who knows how true that is. He originally came from ICOC. 😢 sad stuff I’ve experienced there
I'm really sorry to hear that you experienced really sad stuff. I'm glad that it sounds like you are no longer there, but I'm sure it can still be hard to think about that time. Praying for Jesus to continue to heal and lead you throughout your life.
I was in the ICOC cult in the 90s. People were nice until I became a leader and learned about their recruitment tactics. I ran and never looked back
Wow, that's interesting. I'm glad you got out when you did. Were the leaders as harsh in how they treated people, similar to my experience, or was yours different in any way?
I left the ICOC as well but I'm not baptized with them thank god for real they told me I needed to let go of my family idk but I left as soon as I felt that I was getting closer to being on their chain
I fucked around in community college for 5 years finally got my associates and get into a local 4 year school and met one of these groups of course as a 24 year old I was very skeptical I really wanted to trust them but something seemed off. They were very similar to what you described and part of me still wanted friends. I never allowed myself to get to do deep and at that point I just wanted to graduate and I was there to take care of business. I didn’t mean to ditch them on purpose really what ultimately drove me away from them is when I was struggling with Accounting and I was desperate to pass so I just kept going to tutoring instead of hanging out with them. I can understand why people fall into this because it’s presented like friendship and not a hate group. I didn’t think cult until I talked to my mom about it.
Good job heeding your brother’s advice.
Thank you. Yea, it was a good idea to leave
@@JordanKranda I had a friend in college who got involved with this group. We were both in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship together, but when she got involved with the ICOC she pretty much abandoned her IV friends and we rarely saw her. They were actually banned from my campus
I did two years in it between 95 to 97 so glad to be out.
Oh wow. Glad you got out. Was your experience similar to mine?
@fourpaws329 Praise God! Was your experience similar to the story or mine?
Thanks for sharing your story!
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Many of the abusive methodologies of this church still exist today. I just left the Boston Church of Christ. They have an unwelcome presence on college campuses here. Please do your mental health and your relationship with Jesus a favor and AVOID this church. It is systematically unhealthy in many ways.
Thank you for sharing your story. Kip McKean was asked to resign and step down from leadership in the ICOC in 2002. Then he went and started the ICC, which from the outside looks like it is refusing to evolve.
I joined an ICOC in Irvine CA in 2005. I have had many positive and negative experiences, mostly positive. But that’s just my individual story. I respect yours. The older I get the more I understand what I need for my spiritual health. So I know when to say No to commitments. I don’t experience manipulation or isolation. But fellowship is complicated. I have deep friendships where we support each other through tough times. We don’t always have the right things to say to encourage eachother. But we just give each other a lot of grace. But there are immature people and leaders in this and every church that I look into. There are both legalistic people and wise people in my fellowship. I’m striving to be the latter, and I’m learning a lot about wisdom from voices outside my church, especially Catholics like Henri Nouwen and Richard Rohr. The ICOC is actually having a teacher conference at a Catholic Seminary next year. So unfortunately, it’s complicated. I wish everyone’s experience in this church was like mine. If they were all like yours, then I would take my family and go find another church. Few things are that black and white…
best take i've heard from a current ICOC members. Sounds like you're not brainwashed like some of the others
I have been to this group a couple of times but, I questioned some of their practices no musical instruments started to get me to question their practices. I asked if they’re born again by asking Jesus into their lives. I noticed that the people in their flesh. They cussed and listened to ungodly music. The flesh and the spirit war against another. I knew right away something was wrong with them and I never returned.
That's great that you were able to sense something pretty quickly and get out. Thanks for sharing
Good Stuff! Interesting story I have. I was asked how their music was after the first service I attended. Told them it was alright with the songs being meaningful and how happy it made me. This was met by people asking me what could be so wrong with the music; using the situation to state I perhaps cared too much about the music; told the music here was the most mellow; "talked down"; etc. Thought the overreactions were a bit weird but this is how the ICC was in everything. Finding reasons to critique churches as lukewarm or coming short while claiming an excuse for everything they did.
I grew up in this group- that’s so interesting what you mentioned about the “pairs”. I had never seen it that way so it was interesting to hear it put this way, but I had definitely seen it from the other perspective- the way we were taught to love bomb and focus on someone who we would “make a disciple” & then train up sounds just like what Malcom may have been trying to do with you. Where did you get the stat about ICOC being only second to Scientology for claims of being a cult? I’m just curious- grew up in it and only recently left so doing a lot of hearing peoples stories :)
It's interesting you said "love bomb", since I now remember hearing about that term after I left. And I don't remember where I read that stat from, but it was something I read right after I left them.
They currently go by the name “Thrive”. Before that, they went by the name "Dream". All part of the Int'l Church of Christ. Yes, very wise to steer clear.
Wow! Sounds a lot like the Jehovah's Witnesses....
Dude this is hilarious because I was there when this was all going down. I knew Ricky personally and remembered him leading that campus ministry. What was the year if you can remember when this was? Like 2008? Or after?
Hi. Thank you for sharing. I’m a seminary student at Azusa Pacific and I’d love to do an interview with you with regards to your experience for my ICOC report if you are interested. Please let me know. Thank you.
I was approached by them and went to a few "Bible talks" and events over a month before I saw their legalism & control and left! Many insights I have and would love to contribute!
“To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” Cardinal John Henry Newman
Thanks for the comment!
@@JordanKranda I’m not sure if this is something you can answer but how can I tell JW’s about the immortal soul which they don’t believe in? We’ve been meeting at my house for months and they call it a Bible study, which it’s not.
Have you ever been involved in a cult or come close to joining one? I'm genuinely interested in hearing your story. Please share your story below!
ICoC has a chapter here at Berkeley. They call themselves DREAM. I linked Reddit threads but RUclips deleted that comment.
I had a very similar, albeit short story with the ICC (a splinter church of the ICOC founded by Kip). They have a chapter at SJSU; they call themselves THRIVE now. I was with them for two weeks (I attended three of their Bible talks and a couple of their devotional services) until 1. they denied that they were a cult and claimed other churches were persecuting them during that second and last devo i went to and 2. I told my dad my "friends" were trying to push me into going to their church instead of my own. After that, I wanted to focus on my schoolwork (I was falling behind in classes) but they were so pushy on trying to get me to meet up with them that I had to block them on my phone and socials. Just my experience and definitely be careful who you hang out with.😅😅
I joined the ICOC back in 1991. Yeah, shit times. Also approached on a college campus in California by shiny happy people. Didn't feel good about it from day one, but I mostly joined to get them off my back (that didn't work) ultimately they kicked me out. They kept my husband until he left later.
@@estherfu6288please read the Bible
Kip’s church is the ICC, not the ICOC.
Was in this cult for two years, thanks for sharing your story plan to share mine so. What kind of camera are you using?
I'm glad to hear that you are no longer in that cult. Please do share your story. And I'm using a Sony FX3!
Wow!! Sounds a lot like Jehovah's Witnesses....
Yea, exactly! This is why I'm really interested in JW's.
Not even close..
Man yes it a sad world too but since I couldn’t come to her church she hasn’t been talking to me lately side eye
I'm glad you're not involved with them anymore. It's good you got away. I'm praying you find a church community focused on Jesus and that you're doing well.
So glad i found your video. Im Having the same experience. Redflag city. Time to move on to another church. What a creepy experience 😳 😬 😐
Ricky looked at you like that because you were hurting his pocket its all about the money for this group
Been out of the ICOC for four years I did nine years with the organization and man the things I witnessed and saw and felt. I talk it about on my channel even after leaving
I'm really glad you could escape from that situation. It's fantastic that you're sharing your experience. Raising awareness about their harm is important.
Yeah they suck. 'Don't say ICOC!' Anyone that's makes God exclusive is going down🔥🔥🔥
I was baptized in 2008, left in 2021. The authoritarian, harsh, bullying practices and lack of love for the lost still persists today in some leaders, and it happened in my congregation. I had visited mainline Churches of Christ before I officially left, and they were nothing like the ICOC. I've been writing a book about all of it that experience. But long story short, there are people who want to know who Jesus is and then end up in a place where they find out just who Jesus isn't...and in the ICOC, their discipling practices are certainly not what Jesus had in mind
You were in the church for a long time. I'm glad you finally got out and that you are writing a book to help others. That's really great to hear. I'm sorry that you had to endure what you had to endure. Glad you came out the other side.
@@JordanKranda I knew nothing of the ICOCs past before I left. only vague terminologies like "after "the letter" which came out in 2003 and basically was supposed to reform the church. and, it in fact did! for some...not all. "this is how we've always done it, so this is how we will" stuck in the hearts of some, including in my own lead evangelist, but he wasn't (believe it or not) as bad as some others ive seen. IPI is now the publishing arm (DPI is no longer there anymore) and I am going to approach them about the book first, because I do have a hunch many will be on board with it...but others in IPI may not be, we'll see. Book 1 (the examination, close to 145 pages) should be done in a week or 2, and I'll be doing book reviews on my channel. book 2 (the autobiography) is way too long (584 pages) so I gotta edit that thing
I was part of the later ICOC. I had mainly good experiences, but ultimately I left. There were good things but like most churches, it wasn't perfect. It did take up your whole life though, literally 7 days a week.
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it. Yea, they love to take up your time . I remember that sentiment amongst my group, as well.
Lol i just went through this the leader asked me how much i would be tithing before the baptism.
Oh wow. That’s crazy. I’m assuming you’re no longer going through with the training?
@JordanKranda yea, it turned me off right away and cut all contact, i am an older student, 29. I could see how social manipulation would work on young adults.
@JordanKranda also felt like a multi-level marketing scheme. The leader even studied marketing in college.
@adsffdaaf4170 Spot On!
Thank you for sharing.
My pleasure and I appreciate your comment!
Thank you for your video. While I am part of the ICOC and there were good things that happened to me (met my wife 😁), there were also other bad experiences too, since my regional church at the time was very diverse and I didn’t end up with the right group of ppl, I also had my share of hurt unfortunately. For example, I study medicine and am passionate about it, also on my way to become a physician but was repeatedly told that that seeking doctors is not trusting god and that medicine is sinful, and that I should give up especially it takes up so much time away from God on top of it being “sinful”. In a way I can relate and I’m glad that you were able to leave behind a group of people trapped in toxic mentalities. Nevertheless, I pray you will find peace and happiness in another church and that you can also heal. Best wishes to you.
I appreciate your comment. Your words were encouraging. It's wonderful that you met your wife there. I'm sorry to hear about the hurt you experienced. It's great that you were studying medicine. The Church needs physicians like you and Luke (the author of the Gospel of Luke). I hope and pray that you are doing well!
You adopted the icoc, I was born in it, molded by it
haha. Nice movie reference. Were you really born into the ICOC?
@@JordanKranda
Yes, back in the kipp era
I have many of the songs memorized
You have a good brother there.
I’ve been in the the ICOC in Boston since 1987 and though there have been many issues throughout the years - I wouldn’t be the person I am today without the impact the church had on my heart & mind - preaching Jesus (and my own daily, personal walk). read about the 1sf century church in 1 and 2nd Corinthians- talk about a mess. However, I don’t mean to diminish the negative impact that people in the ICOC have had on you. I’m saying my journey has been life changing over these many years. I don’t believe that we are the ONLY church - but I do believe we are THE Church. God bless! Thanks for sharing your heart.
Great to hear your story, thanks for sharing
"Christ Rescued Me from the Church of Christ" by Lee Anne Ferguson
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Great video, thanks for sharing your story!! Praise be to King Jesus!
Thanks so much! I appreciate it! And I'm grateful for Jesus
Was in the “new movement” ICC for 4 years, such a waste and very traumatic
Oh. I'm really sorry to hear that. If I may ask, what caused you to finally leave? Regardless, I'm happy you ended up getting out of it.
@@JordanKranda I stepped to take a leader role in my last year. I began to connect the dots and tried to ask questions, but was always deflected. There was deception,manipulation, and a lot of other things in the system that I thought were weird when I had first joined, but made a lot of sense after I had left.
This is sad. My only question is when Ricky challenged you with using something from the Bible, you said you didn't know that much about the Bible. If you were active in 2 separate churches and invested that much time, how did you not know 1 example from the Bible is my only question?
What particularly do you find sad? Just curious.
What is sad is that this happened and you legitimately thought it was a great group. Then bam, they blind sighted you and I can't imagine how betrayed you must have felt.
I actually watch through your entire video, and could not fins any reason why you call them a cult.
In my conviction, if i call someone false or cult, have to prove it from the scripture why they are so.
Acts 17:11 NIV
[11] Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
But sadly i just don't see a single scripture reference from you.
I only see that you love yourself and your opinion more than anything else.
You honestly sound like you're part of this cult and don't like me sharing my experience. Are you or have you ever been a part of the ICOC cult?
And they said they love everyone 😂😂 lies they say
They do lie and deceive a lot. They were so hateful to people when I was around them. Still hurts to think about it. Glad that we have hope in Jesus though.
I think you miss understood. Its not bad to be “called” a Christian, its just that word came much later. The word disciple is much more prevalent. Secondly, a disciple implies deeper devotion, a learner. Where christian, which was not invented by the church, means a Christ follower. Its just in today modern culture everyone wants to be called “christian” but their life does not demonstrate it.
"much later" you mean in Antioch, in Acts 11, in 34 AD? God you people are so ignorant. You claim to be the remnant of the first century church and yet you know nothing about it. You claim to be ancient yet your whole theology rides on a thoroughly modern, contrived/perceived distinction between two synonyms. This is cultish semanticism
judas was a disciple
if they are the ONLY church saved they are saying that before this church was founded NOBODY made it to heaven.......almost funny
you don’t know your word. Prior to Jesus, there were animal sacrifices that reconciled the Jews to God, Jesus was that sacrifice. Both groups of people that were reconciled should be good depending on what they did to be right with God.
@@BrandonYoungMusic Answer this simple question. In modern times is the ICOC the one true church?
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 crickets...
They are trying to recruit me lol idk what to do
Don't be recruited. They can really put the pressure on you, so I pray you don't feel that from them.
@@JordanKranda You think itd be safe to troll them / waste their time?
I wouldn't. haha. I would rather use my time getting plugged into a local church or even play a video game haha.@@dawi
@@JordanKrandafeel very sorry for you
Just say no
JOHN 8 V 44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Love that verse. What made you share that verse?
Interesting video.
One useful scripture for anyone in the same situation as you were, hope it helps.
Acts 15: 15- 17
states that God will take a people for His name called by His name.
They will be imitating Christ to the best of their ability, since this is what being a Christian means.
However not many religions choose to use the Father's name, indeed it is actually banned in some organisations !
Jesus however used it , we know this from his statement at John 17: 25, 26.
Here he connected the use of the Father's name with his followers having love among
themselves.
This love would be international, rather than national.
No one is trying to “isolate from family” or control. That is a false accusation. There is numerous scriptures and personal examples of what happens when young Christian still participate with their non believer friends. Many get swayed back to their old ways, leaving the faith. Many get mocked, ridiculed by friends and family which leads to them, again leaving the faith.
Ill be fair yes, back in 2000-2006 things were much more heavy handed. Those have been long changed. But all in all, this is a far cry from calling ICOC a cult.
We just live in a individualistic society, its “my wants” its “don’t let anyone tell you what you can’t do”, etc. so the word “cult” is thrown around so easily. Its more of a cope out to deflect personal responsibility.
One thing you can't deny!!!! everything that ICOC teaches is in the word of God and Paul did it; He exhorted, corrected and that is care and love. That's what ICI does. Always willing to know whether we are doing the will of Jesus Christ or our fallen human nature. A church that does not speak out about sin may not have the holy spirit acting. In James it says confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. James 5;15-16
I was in icc for almost a decade, wasn’t that bad I used to frequent the Fullerton campus and met decent people there
Oh wow. That's pretty wild we both were there.
A lot of what you shared friend is something we as followers of Jesus must do. We need to find a dear close brother in Christ that will hold us accountable, yes some of the things you shared are concerning. It will be good to have a friend in your life you walk with, as scripture says “as iron sharpens iron, so one man does another”.
Also from one last encouragement, I hope that wasn’t their names…
Anyways thanks for the video.
I agree that on the surface, certain practices like accountability partners, consistent Bible reading, community, and preaching repentance seemed positive. But their motives were wrong. They weren't doing it for Jesus; they were doing it to impress their leaders, themselves, or to boast later. Just like the Pharisees Jesus encountered, who did good things on the surface but for the wrong reasons, most of the people I met in this cult were the same.
@@JordanKranda sounds good. May God continue to bless you in your growth and devotion to Him.
💙
Are they all the same? For example the Choctaw Church of Christ?
They're not the same. ICOC has problems. I also wouldn't want to be involved with anything connected to Kip McKean.
The International Churches of Christ (which was a schism off the Mainline Churches of Christ) is significantly more legalistic and problematic. They took the Mainline Churches of Christ theology and tossed on a lot more requirements and demands (a.k.a. "added teeth").
🙏❤️
Thanks for the comment!
🙌❤️🙏❤️🤗
Thank you!
I’m wondering what a saddleback has to do with a Christian church. And what is a saddleback anyway?
If you're curious, I'd suggest looking it up.
@@JordanKranda Ok 👍
Hi Jordan. Thank you for sharing your story. Just wondering Was it Ricky Challinor you talking about?
I’m sorry that you had a negative experience with the particular group you joined. True disciples shouldn’t act hateful, cause dissension or discord, or judge others for their unbelief (which is completely hypocritical). Also, the ICOC is lukewarm, this is why the ICC was created.
Yeah, it was a really bad experience, but I appreciate your kind words!
As a current member of the ICOC, some of my fellowship are lukewarm. Others are passionate and are actually biblically based. So saying that the ICOC as a whole is lukewarm is flatly incorrect…
Lmaooo the ICC is even more toxic.
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 The ICC, ICOC, and even many Campbellism Churches Of Christ are toxic. I would further add John MacArthur's church to almost being on this list due to their authoritarian ways!
I can’t speak for the people and how they interacted with you, But when people become disciples its common to confess to one another. Maybe at this point you were young and still hadn’t gotten to the trust point. Or maybe that one person approached to strong.
James 5:16 NIV
[16] Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Galatians 6:2 NIV
[2] Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
This is not uncommon or unique to ICOC. What I believed happened is you interpreted the person’s good intentions as bad. The person you met up with was trying to look out for you, but maybe they were bad at doing it. This is not unique.
You should really try reading that in context of that starting in verse 14 and keep in mind the little titles your used to seeing in your bible that break up the text into paragraphs are not present in the original Greek. Your actually supposed to confess to the presbyters/elders (these are the guys directly under the Bishop) - some would say the Priest...
Unfortunately under the Kip McKean model of discipleship, you'll end up getting garbage advice to do with sin as the guy discipling you is likely a spiritual child barely further along the walk then you are. If it's something your really struggling with the best advice you're likely to get is to "just be more fired up" or "you're spiritually weak and need to repent".
@HOSPlTALLER Appreciate the context you bring into our discussions and you are largely correct. Some key points to think about:
A.) Paul is speaking for a certain church and situation and issues. Getting legalistic on how confessions and vulnerability should be shown is both not genuine and not Biblical.
B.) The ICC & ICOC often claim other churches are lukewarm and they are the only ones who call out which is largely false.
C.) Just calling out sins itself isn't the point of these verses; but they're also about challenging all of us to see hypocrisy. Everyone can find reasons to callout everyone!
D.) Many ICC & ICOC members get put under this system and only end up hiding things better from leadership or end up leaving more.
I am part of the international Church of Christ in Salvador-BA-BR and everything that is taught comes from the word of God. To speak ill of a biblical church is to sin against the Holy Spirit of God.
😂😂😂😂😂. Spread your fear somewhere else Anita
@anitaferreira Many churches and organizations claim everything they teach is from the Word Of God. The ICC & ICOC are often the ones who claim other churches are lukewarm and not emphasizing or teaching from the Word Of God while they use many Bible verses in wrong context to justify control over members. Also they may not say this much but emphasize loyalty to the organization even more than Christ effectively!
I was part of the ICOC church in Richmond, Virginia, USA for 12 years. I can say with certainty that the leaders are mostly narcissistic, the d-times and Bible "study series" are designed to make/keep you emotionally dependent, and the hierarchical leadership structure is there to control members, not to teach them. They are dedicated more to the opinions of their pantheon of "evangelists" than the Bible or morality. I genuinely hope you learn that as I have and escape, and find the courage to be yourself, because they stripped that from me and it was so hard to find it.
Reality check you're still in a cult