I'm seeing a lot of comments to the effect of "but Legion X has a unit which can do that one specific thing better". This is not a logical argument to make gang, because the strength in this legion lies in versatility, they do not suck in any area, be it Warlord Traits, Legion Traits, Rites of War, Characters, Special Units or Wargear. There are legions that come close to the Imperial Fists, like Iron Warriors, who so utterly dominate the shooting phase, or combat legions like Space Wolves and Emperors Children (who I really rate for versatility too), but no legion can lay claim to as much just working outside the box as this legion. Take Salamanders, they have a legion trait that only affects flame, melta, volkite and plasma weapons, and it doesn't affect the instant death threshold, the key thing you want to effect on many of those weapons. Their special wargear is a stronger template in an edition which does everything to make templates weaker. Take Raven Guard, Infiltrate (one-off start of battle gimmick) and shrouded (6+) for their infantry, or rerolling 1's to wound on the charge for their big boy units. Their wargear allows night fighting at the expense of blind checks at initiative 1, and their special weapon is a lightning claw that rends a smidge easier. Take Thousand Sons, who have to roll each turn in a risky attempt to get a legion trait, and if the squad sergeant dies, the unit loses access to legion traits outright. On top of that, they have poor weapons and specialist units. Take White Scars, they have a flat +1" movement. That's it, so make the most of that on Heavy Weapons teams in a shooting game.... Take World Eaters, first turn of close combat, they get an additional attack. Now compare those, the more typical level of legion strength, to the Imperial Fists. They have +1 to hit on the most common weapon groups in the game. +1 to hit on Boltguns? Who cares, but +1 to hit on Assault Cannons, Punisher Cannons and Nemesis Bolters? Yeah, that's rock hard. Access to storm shields in bulk? You can take 15 Storm Shield Tartarus or Cataphractii with power fists for the same cost as 10 Firedrakes, think they can hold the line vs Khenetai Blades? Heck, the Templar Brethren would slaughter Khenetai Blades. Imagine Imperial Fists Tartarus vs Red Butchers, there's only one legion getting butchered in that fight, and they don't wear yellow. Imperial Fists are overpowered, not because they have an "I win" button strapped to them, they are overpowered because they have a tool for the job in every single category, that always works, no thought involved. As an excessive example, try this 1750 point list on for size, Armoured Rite of War, Sicaran Battle tank HQ with three Assault Cannons, and either 2 squads of 5 or 3 squads of 3 Predator Tanks as troops, with 3 assault cannons each. Total Army firepower is 182 shots per turn, all hitting on 2's, with a 30" threat radius, that's 132 Assault cannon shots per turn with max predators, 40 predator cannon shots, 6 accelerator autocannon shots and 4 heavy bolter shots. Enjoy that fun and engaging battle, use your reactions wisely.
Yeah but that sort of maximizing is exactly the reason we got out of 40k and into HH. Nobody will play that sort of list, nor against it... And I am fairly sure DA are far more OP than IF while we're at it
While you make a fair point with the suggested list; that kind of warhammer player, regardless of rules as written or faction, is a pain in the ass to play against anyways. You might see it at tournaments, but it's going to be unpopular at your local store.
Seems a bit juvenile to degrade imperial fists players, most of whom were before the new rules, simply based on their new rules, doesn't it? Not sure where the "fedora wearing mouth breather", or "smooth brained" comments were warranted.
ok a few thoughts for the wardens, as you say they are "very good" in CC. yes they get WS5 but 1 Attack per model (seargent 2) wardens dont do damage they just survive.
and tbh vs mass bolt fire they can still crumble. If they are doing the ROW not hitting their invulns is better than using higher ap. I played vs a shooty UM army and they just gunned them down with lots of tac fire.
@@nukethenatelore this is very true, I think the wardens are a terrible unit. Its locked to a rite of war and only in this setup they are good vs certain weapons. Compared to other special units they are very weak 1 attack and 1 wound. Players who lack strategical understanding they feel overpowered, hence they got nerfed hard during playtesting.
@@3v3rhard yea you are paying 50 more than normal warders to give them +1ld, axes, and their abilities. Tbh without the row they are an ok sidegrade to breachers. And the row is only crazy op if you abuse it. Tbh running 2-3 min sized squads of breachers and warders with no apothecaries isn't busted. But if you mid max it with fuck tons of warders with apothecaries then yea it's busted
For the Close Combat purpose only. I believe that they would be good in Stone Gaunlet, They get free ap2 axe, fit them with boarding shield and reroll invul is superb if you fields them 14+ guys in one blob unit to push the board with they invul 4 to save twice. I made a mistake before; WS4 7Terminators+warlords paragon blade and Contemptor Dreanought with fist charge at them and Phalanx can hold both of them for 3-4 turns and axed my terminator down to 2. the fact that they have 1 wound make it so questionable because they could die like 3 wounds at most from average high ap 7 wounds save from Termie fist and 5-6 save from contemptor fist in one turn and with high number of them would overhelm a pack of termie as they would deal enought damage to get the draw fight with termie, They are MADLAD in combat. You deploy 2 of these guys and high number model and let one wrap on dreadnought that would stuck 4 turns with WS5 unit and do nothing else.
For my imperial fists i have just a bunch of tactical squads, a heavy support squad with missiles and a kratos.... just a "nothing special" list tbh and i do that intentionally.
Miss my old legion traits. Bolters only for the extra BS and re roll 1s in challenges. Thank you. Capture both aspects of the legion in two short rules.
Thank you for doing this. Can't wait for Iron Warriors one. I'd love to see you expand the series with more "unconventional" yet thematic force ideas (like guerilla Iron Warriors or Scars seeking redemption for their sins). Something between hobby, lore and army building.
Late comment don’t know if you’ll see this, phalanx Warders are good. But they are overrated as hell. Outside their rite of war they are okay, even in it 3+ armor save is fine but it’s not 2+ for a specialist unit. 1 attack at unwieldy + they have no ranged firepower. Exact same problem with the amazing huscarls. Yeah on the charge they get HoW (1) but shooting units don’t care about that your out of range. They will get shot to pieces with lascannons multi melt as and hell, mass bolter fire will do it. Absolutely insane defensive unit with the ability to have 3++, 4++ FNP, and 4++ INVL saves is really really tough as hell, but they don’t have the killing power that the other special units do. Thunder hammers are insane, but the entire unit is already striking last. S tier for sure, but overrated at the same time. Huscarls on the other hand…yeah they are what they are.
Fists are good, probably A tier, but are not broken. The only broken thing they have is the stone gauntlet, and it only gets broken if you are playing vs an ass who spams max units, give each and everyone apothecaries, and spends all his points on warders. That person is not fun to play with so dont. Mid maxing HH players are the worst and should be shunned. The rest of their rules are GOOD, not great. Assault cannons cost a good amount and only have 24" range, power gauntlets cost as much as hammers and are arguably worse, 3++ is good but pricey, deep strike is ok, and their +1 to hit doesn't even really affect their unit specific units, both of which are only really good in their respective ROWs. templar only have powerswords and sure warders have power axes but only have one attack. They can take hits but they dont do a lot of dmg for their points. The fists are a jack of all trades master of none. Every specific aspect of fighting some other legion does better in some way, IW have better shooting, tons of armies have better melee, ect. Fists just lack a huge downside, which makes sense cause thats what fists are. Stable and soil. (Except for gauntlet. stone gauntlet needs to be nerfed imo and phalanx warders would be perfect if they dropped the chars bonus)
This is just a general question regarding boarding shields, i didn’t see any mention of them getting heavy, only that they get a 5 up invuln. I just wanted to know where you are getting that from.
I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall when this legion was being created and if this was down to mere gross incompetence or willful overpowering. I can't decide which is worse!
Time will tell if they really are broken. It is interesting to see such a contrast of opinions on 2.0 legion power levels. Take a look at this ruclips.net/video/xhGyOocffSI/видео.html
I dont think these rules would be as frustrating if we had the same care and effort put into the other elgion rules, I am mostly restricting myself to the stock rites of war and mostly tacticals with no dreads. I have been playing IF since HH1.0 and i feel like the stacking of just benefits with no downsides is really over the top.
Your bitterness about Imperial Fists rules is way over the top. I wonder if there is someone in your local gaming group who exclusively spams Warders in the rite of war with the rerolling invulns. Yes they are a jack of all trades, but they are also master of none (Except the stone gauntlet). Their wargear is all good, and their special units are good, but neither are best in class (again with the exception of warders in the stone gauntlet). Storm Shields are awesome, I understand the value of 3++, but they only have regular terminators to put them on, as opposed to Salamanders who can bring 3++ on an elite Legion specific terminator unit, or other legion specific terminators who don't have 3++ but who are better for other reasons. Again not saying that Salamanders are better than fists cause of Firedrakes, but just that the fist units are not individually overpowered. Its just that every singe one has value and is good in some way. Assault cannons are very good, especially with the +1 to hit from the fist legion trait, but they have 24in range. Many things can strike at an assault cannon heavy support squad without getting shot back at. You just shoot them from afar. If you're not taking assault cannons on heavy support squads they are still good, but they are also 20 points a cannon, or 25 if you have to upgrade to heavy flamer first (looking at you contemptors). When you are paying 10pts more for an Illiastus Assault cannon on your dread compared to a kheres assault cannon, I would not call that cheap. The legion trait and reaction are both very good, though again, there are other legion reactions and traits that are arguably better; It's just that the imperial fists get it all. All of this is to say that I agree with your assessment that Imperial fists may be the best legion overall, and its because everything they have across the board is good. BUT, I think the salt is undeserved because when you play against imperial fists on the table top they cannot bring everything they have in their arsenal, and furthermore, each individual thing they can bring is not cancerous in it's own rite. In highly competitive settings where people are really optimizing lists, I can see the fists coming out ahead for all the reasons you outlined in the video, but if it's your average Joe going up against fists at his Local gaming store and the fists are not running stone gauntlet then there is no need to get salty. It will be a good game with plenty of back and forth. Conversely if you are the fist player, just don't bring stone gauntlet in friendly games. As long as you don't do that you won't be "that guy"
The imperial fists have a bunch of "good" rules but nothing broken (cept stone gauntlet), mainly because its really hard to leverage ALL their rules. Templar are really only good if you take the ROW, and then you need to spend a ton on land raiders for each unit. +1 to his with bolt weapons is good, but basically useless on all the legion unique units. And the 3++, assault, and solarite all cost a good amount. Like 20p per gun is no cheep change. His "super pred' he was talking about costs 40p more just to get two 24" cannons more. That range is SO tiny for a heavy support shooty tank.
@@nukethenatelore I agree completely. Just to chime in on templars specifically, they are good and perfectly usable, but compared to other elite melee infantry they are nothing special (Invictarus Suzerains are substantially better for example). And even with the rite of war rage(2) buff the enemy just has to do the disordered charge reaction to negate all the templar buffs. Very easy to counter them. And just like you said you have to pay that land raider tax in the rite of war to get any use out of it anyway. Stone Gauntlet is aids but other than that fists are fine.
@@soccernerd27 Basically all templar are good for is having a 5 man squad with a banner run into a tac squad and try and sweeping advance them. But thats in a competitive sense, I take some cause they look cool
Im a imperial fists fan too the death, i have a 40k Imperial fists army, a 30k imperial fists army, a 40k black templars army and a crimsons fist kill team......my point being i love them. I did not want my legion to be over powered, and im salty about it because now im THAT guy... Literally i would have taken anything i dont care, give us the 6+ extra shot on bolters like in 40k and call it a day... Edit: what sucks is i also have an iron warriors army....
Don’t worry about it just enjoy your favourite legions you can always nerf yourself by taking weapons that don’t get benefits from their trait and not spamming great units things like that. I’ve played a few games against IW and IF with my WE and had good fun games.
but you arent "that guy" you didnt just get into fists because they have the best rules. you like the faction and have dedicated years to painting and playing them and now youre at the top of the tier list for once. if anyone gives you a hard time over it then they are childish. enjoy being strong. its not something to be upset about lol. i have a buddy who played necrons for years. when they finally got strong in the recent 40k edition we were all happy for him because he had been at the bottom tables for years.
After playing many games of 2.0 there not that good. In practice there not as strong. Dark angels are the top dog of 2.0. snipers can kill the sarge's and anyone else of note. A 20 man unit of gray hunters and a speaker of the dead will eat everything. +1 to hit is good till you need a Las cannon to kill tanks. From the way your speaking it seams you have not played that many games of 2.0 yet. And not many against the IF
What can Dark Angels do better? Imperial Fists spamming nemesis bolters are very strong, with scoring heavy weapons and solid walls of shields/storm shields available to them. I don't rate Dark Angels that highly, I rate them in the middle of the legions, with two strong legion specific units, a questionable one, and a lot of middling traits with ways of becoming strong vs a legion with all the tools required to excel.
@@TheOuterCircle there's storm wing that can get +1 to bolter, Combi, and bolt pistols. Iron wing can reroll 1s when shooting at vehicles. Vehicles get snap shoot at BS 2. Death wing gets +1 to hit with all swords. Plasma flamers for days. There imperial fist+ the way to kill phalanx is lots of bolters. There at the end of the day just a marine. +1 with 20 tacs will kill a lot of dudes. I run rotor cannons at 20 strong and rip marines to shreds. 20 dispoilers with a speaker of the dead will walk right through a phalanx squad.
@@ashlevrier I'm all over the Dark Angels rules, we spent 3 hours in the brains trust last night going over every single legion trait and working out what was best and for what application. Dark Angels are good at everything, but there's other legions who are BETTER at everything, I'd call Dark Angels an almost perfectly written legion if not for one or two overpowered things.
Been playing fists for years, was kinda frustrated with how broken the rules were when I saw them cause I didnt want to be "that guy". Warders dont output too much pain but they do take it like champs, the inclusion of "Auto" on the legion trait was completely not needed, the storm shield rules and costs havent really changed between editions, full assault cannon heavy weapon teams are kinda cringe as are some of the pics ive seen of basically full assault cannon tanks. We used to be the "precision" shooting legion and now it feels like we're the BRRRRRRRRT legion.
My guess is that they wanted to push the Fists as a way to help push the Siege of Terra narrative that the Age of Darkness trailer started. Makes me wonder why the Sons of Horus got so shafted (sorry Macca but I disagree with your vid about them, you need to go back and re analysis them) as the opposite side to that trailer.
They are not broken at all. Just good. Broken stuff: suzerain, raven guard mordayton with volkite combi, fulminator/siege tyrants, dawnbreakers. General OP stuff : lascannon heavy weapon teams and contemtors with fist and graviton.
RIP fists, its a bit hard to bring them to the table now until toned down a bit. I painted up two sicaran punishers thinking they look cool in 1.0 and those weren't oppressive or anything.
I do enjoy most of your content. I tend to forget your strong bias against Fists though. Couldn't get through your video without getting distracted by your constant whinging about Fists being powerful, instead of showcasing their strengths and weaknesses (You say they have none...THey have a few, and my World Eaters friend exploits them. They exist.) You bitch about everything they can do is blatantly overpowered. Yes, it's very powerful that Fists get a +1 to hit when shooting bolt AND auto weapons. Other legions get crazy things as well, unfortunately not all legions, but a lot do. I feel you strawmanned hard with your pinned comment, describing a fraction of other legions capabilities as if that's all they get, while explaining in detail if one were to abuse Imperial Fist abilities (Not one have I sought to run "OOPS all Phalanx Warders!" or "Oops I brought all bolt and auto weapons on my tank list!") that the faction is broken. The Advanced Reaction is gimmicky. You seriously believe it's broken and unfair and overpowered? You have to move within 10 inches of me, and then I have to rely on a D6 roll to see if I can lock that unit in melee. It's only ever happened once in the two plus years I've been playing Fists. That's once per game, too. At least the Emperors Children one is far more fun. The World Eaters one is pretty good in comparison. Ultramarines can be pretty punishing. They all have their place. Fists almost force you to have a melee element in your army to make the most out of that RoW, otherwise you're wasting that RoW. All in all there's waays to make the Legion busted, but you cannot say it's alone in being busted as cheese. I feel you're a bit too biased, though I can understand some of the salt given GW keeps giving them stuff and made them the poster boys of the Loyalist side when...Arguably the Blood Angels, or any of the 3 Initial legions who got squashed on Istvaan should have gotten the spotlight. Shitting on them throughout the video and letting your hate and bias ooze all over it puts a bad taste in my mouth, simply trying to see what tactics are ones to avoid and others to enjoy with my army. People like you and others who've shit on the army I picked before 2.0 came out just because I wanted to try painting yellow really kills the fun.
@Marbles Exactly. It's modifying your odds of hitting, not the ballistic skill of the model firing. Pedantic? Sure. But it's how it was played in the last edition and when FAQ's they confirmed that interpretation last edition.
I was afraid that they would be strong, but not to the level laid out here. I really will need to limit myself otherwise it won't be fun for me or my opponent to play...
Hey ! We still have to massively paint yellow you know, I think it makes up for the rules. :P On a more serious note, yes, it's a bit OP. You have to be really careful to avoid being "that guy". But I like them, the strong legion trait means you are tempted to try others things: armoured assault ? Why not, our predator are nice with stock weapon. flyers ? Yes please, gimme that fire raptor... etc.
GW must be trying to make up for years of Ultramarines stanning with this bathroom handy for the Imperial Fists. Hoping the most thematically unloved boys in hazard stripes get some love from macca.
The downside to playing Imperial Fists is that I won't be able to run these broken OP units because they'll be perpetually out of stock because meta-chasers are hopping onto the bandwagon. Also, I'm going to be judged pretty fucking hard for playing my preferred Legion, thanks to this BS power boost. This is actually why I picked Alpha Legion, btw. Once I heard of how broken Imperial Fists were I decided against playing them because I'm afraid of being the asshole who meta-chases and brings in the most OP BS in the world.
Yup. Lotta things were out of stock for well over four months on both the regular website and Forge World. It’s a meme how terrible GW is at anticipating stock loss
How to get started with Imperial Fists: don't. They are clearly the small-pp-needs-to-win faction. 100% lore-unfriendly (unless you count the worse novels of the Horus Heresy, which are little more than fan-fiction). EDIT: The Imperial Fists should have been forced to take fortifications. Also, their special rules should only activate if they base-camp like always, uh...I mean remain stationary in their own deployment zone.
Shame the sons of dorn are so broken, loved them since I got into warhammer many years ago. Lord knows the GW knee jerk balance response will kneecap them back being boring soon enough
I dont really mind their strong unique units, other faction have those. The flat bonus to some of the most popular, and best, weapons in the game is a flat damage bonus. It just makes them better than their peers, and negates a lot negatives like night fighting for the fists. It's just worlds better than other armies traits.
I'm seeing a lot of comments to the effect of "but Legion X has a unit which can do that one specific thing better". This is not a logical argument to make gang, because the strength in this legion lies in versatility, they do not suck in any area, be it Warlord Traits, Legion Traits, Rites of War, Characters, Special Units or Wargear. There are legions that come close to the Imperial Fists, like Iron Warriors, who so utterly dominate the shooting phase, or combat legions like Space Wolves and Emperors Children (who I really rate for versatility too), but no legion can lay claim to as much just working outside the box as this legion.
Take Salamanders, they have a legion trait that only affects flame, melta, volkite and plasma weapons, and it doesn't affect the instant death threshold, the key thing you want to effect on many of those weapons. Their special wargear is a stronger template in an edition which does everything to make templates weaker.
Take Raven Guard, Infiltrate (one-off start of battle gimmick) and shrouded (6+) for their infantry, or rerolling 1's to wound on the charge for their big boy units. Their wargear allows night fighting at the expense of blind checks at initiative 1, and their special weapon is a lightning claw that rends a smidge easier.
Take Thousand Sons, who have to roll each turn in a risky attempt to get a legion trait, and if the squad sergeant dies, the unit loses access to legion traits outright. On top of that, they have poor weapons and specialist units.
Take White Scars, they have a flat +1" movement. That's it, so make the most of that on Heavy Weapons teams in a shooting game....
Take World Eaters, first turn of close combat, they get an additional attack.
Now compare those, the more typical level of legion strength, to the Imperial Fists. They have +1 to hit on the most common weapon groups in the game. +1 to hit on Boltguns? Who cares, but +1 to hit on Assault Cannons, Punisher Cannons and Nemesis Bolters? Yeah, that's rock hard. Access to storm shields in bulk? You can take 15 Storm Shield Tartarus or Cataphractii with power fists for the same cost as 10 Firedrakes, think they can hold the line vs Khenetai Blades? Heck, the Templar Brethren would slaughter Khenetai Blades. Imagine Imperial Fists Tartarus vs Red Butchers, there's only one legion getting butchered in that fight, and they don't wear yellow.
Imperial Fists are overpowered, not because they have an "I win" button strapped to them, they are overpowered because they have a tool for the job in every single category, that always works, no thought involved. As an excessive example, try this 1750 point list on for size, Armoured Rite of War, Sicaran Battle tank HQ with three Assault Cannons, and either 2 squads of 5 or 3 squads of 3 Predator Tanks as troops, with 3 assault cannons each. Total Army firepower is 182 shots per turn, all hitting on 2's, with a 30" threat radius, that's 132 Assault cannon shots per turn with max predators, 40 predator cannon shots, 6 accelerator autocannon shots and 4 heavy bolter shots. Enjoy that fun and engaging battle, use your reactions wisely.
Wait... you can get Predators as Troops? Where do I sign up?
@@DarkKnightCuron on the dotted line, in blood.
@@TheOuterCircle I'm sure this will have absolutely 0 consequences whatsoever.
Yeah but that sort of maximizing is exactly the reason we got out of 40k and into HH. Nobody will play that sort of list, nor against it... And I am fairly sure DA are far more OP than IF while we're at it
While you make a fair point with the suggested list; that kind of warhammer player, regardless of rules as written or faction, is a pain in the ass to play against anyways. You might see it at tournaments, but it's going to be unpopular at your local store.
I find it hilarious that it was your 1.0 getting started video that made me start a Fists army and now they’re broken in 2.0.
The drawback is you have to paint yellow.
Imperial Fists it is!!! What can yellow do for you? LOL
Seems a bit juvenile to degrade imperial fists players, most of whom were before the new rules, simply based on their new rules, doesn't it?
Not sure where the "fedora wearing mouth breather", or "smooth brained" comments were warranted.
It's not directed at existing players, it's directed at the person who picks up the list simply to play the force to win game and kick dicks.
very juvenile. stopped listening. can't take someone seriously who is just whining and degrading a subset of players.
With the power of Boxart and Loyalist combined!
Dark angels are leagues above fists and are actually overpowered whereas fists are just stronger than average
Dark angels, when used by a good player are so unbelievably broken it’s insane
This world will break before the imperial fists!
This makes up for imperial fists in 9e
ok a few thoughts for the wardens, as you say they are "very good" in CC. yes they get WS5 but 1 Attack per model (seargent 2) wardens dont do damage they just survive.
and tbh vs mass bolt fire they can still crumble. If they are doing the ROW not hitting their invulns is better than using higher ap. I played vs a shooty UM army and they just gunned them down with lots of tac fire.
@@nukethenatelore this is very true, I think the wardens are a terrible unit. Its locked to a rite of war and only in this setup they are good vs certain weapons. Compared to other special units they are very weak 1 attack and 1 wound. Players who lack strategical understanding they feel overpowered, hence they got nerfed hard during playtesting.
@@3v3rhard yea you are paying 50 more than normal warders to give them +1ld, axes, and their abilities. Tbh without the row they are an ok sidegrade to breachers. And the row is only crazy op if you abuse it. Tbh running 2-3 min sized squads of breachers and warders with no apothecaries isn't busted. But if you mid max it with fuck tons of warders with apothecaries then yea it's busted
For the Close Combat purpose only. I believe that they would be good in Stone Gaunlet, They get free ap2 axe, fit them with boarding shield and reroll invul is superb if you fields them 14+ guys in one blob unit to push the board with they invul 4 to save twice. I made a mistake before; WS4 7Terminators+warlords paragon blade and Contemptor Dreanought with fist charge at them and Phalanx can hold both of them for 3-4 turns and axed my terminator down to 2. the fact that they have 1 wound make it so questionable because they could die like 3 wounds at most from average high ap 7 wounds save from Termie fist and 5-6 save from contemptor fist in one turn and with high number of them would overhelm a pack of termie as they would deal enought damage to get the draw fight with termie, They are MADLAD in combat. You deploy 2 of these guys and high number model and let one wrap on dreadnought that would stuck 4 turns with WS5 unit and do nothing else.
For my imperial fists i have just a bunch of tactical squads, a heavy support squad with missiles and a kratos.... just a "nothing special" list tbh and i do that intentionally.
Miss my old legion traits. Bolters only for the extra BS and re roll 1s in challenges. Thank you. Capture both aspects of the legion in two short rules.
Thank you for doing this. Can't wait for Iron Warriors one. I'd love to see you expand the series with more "unconventional" yet thematic force ideas (like guerilla Iron Warriors or Scars seeking redemption for their sins). Something between hobby, lore and army building.
So fists get +1 to hit on overwatch (with bolter/assault/auto canon) too or am I missing something?
So ahhh i want to play IF only because i played Crimson Fists in 40K and I've had Alexis Polex on my shelf for nearly 5yrs. I am not a fedora wearer
Late comment don’t know if you’ll see this, phalanx Warders are good. But they are overrated as hell. Outside their rite of war they are okay, even in it 3+ armor save is fine but it’s not 2+ for a specialist unit. 1 attack at unwieldy + they have no ranged firepower. Exact same problem with the amazing huscarls. Yeah on the charge they get HoW (1) but shooting units don’t care about that your out of range. They will get shot to pieces with lascannons multi melt as and hell, mass bolter fire will do it. Absolutely insane defensive unit with the ability to have 3++, 4++ FNP, and 4++ INVL saves is really really tough as hell, but they don’t have the killing power that the other special units do. Thunder hammers are insane, but the entire unit is already striking last. S tier for sure, but overrated at the same time. Huscarls on the other hand…yeah they are what they are.
Thank you
You forgot the auto bolter-bolter
Fists are good, probably A tier, but are not broken. The only broken thing they have is the stone gauntlet, and it only gets broken if you are playing vs an ass who spams max units, give each and everyone apothecaries, and spends all his points on warders. That person is not fun to play with so dont. Mid maxing HH players are the worst and should be shunned. The rest of their rules are GOOD, not great. Assault cannons cost a good amount and only have 24" range, power gauntlets cost as much as hammers and are arguably worse, 3++ is good but pricey, deep strike is ok, and their +1 to hit doesn't even really affect their unit specific units, both of which are only really good in their respective ROWs. templar only have powerswords and sure warders have power axes but only have one attack. They can take hits but they dont do a lot of dmg for their points. The fists are a jack of all trades master of none. Every specific aspect of fighting some other legion does better in some way, IW have better shooting, tons of armies have better melee, ect. Fists just lack a huge downside, which makes sense cause thats what fists are. Stable and soil. (Except for gauntlet. stone gauntlet needs to be nerfed imo and phalanx warders would be perfect if they dropped the chars bonus)
This is just a general question regarding boarding shields, i didn’t see any mention of them getting heavy, only that they get a 5 up invuln. I just wanted to know where you are getting that from.
Shields don't have heavy, certain units using them do, such as Warders.
@@TheOuterCircle thank you for the heads up.
Alright, sorry for my comment on the IF rant video, don't have the book and honestly didn't know they were this broken
How are Emperor's Children in 2.0? I just started 30k and finished painting my army today.
They are quite good.
I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall when this legion was being created and if this was down to mere gross incompetence or willful overpowering. I can't decide which is worse!
Wouldn't be so bad if every legion had broken rules. But then I guess it wouldn't be so broken if the others could counter.
Valrak culture
a little from column A, a little from column B..
Time will tell if they really are broken. It is interesting to see such a contrast of opinions on 2.0 legion power levels. Take a look at this ruclips.net/video/xhGyOocffSI/видео.html
I dont think these rules would be as frustrating if we had the same care and effort put into the other elgion rules, I am mostly restricting myself to the stock rites of war and mostly tacticals with no dreads. I have been playing IF since HH1.0 and i feel like the stacking of just benefits with no downsides is really over the top.
Do you know if IF Contemptor dreadnough can take two Close combat weapons with inbuilt illuis assault cannon?
Yes, yes you can.
Do templar brethren with shields get a +1 attack as well? Sorry new to 30k.
The end should have been 'Overall Legion Ranting"! :D
Ah, to that's where my Night Lords teleport transponder went, the new fist players took needed them
Does this mean autocannon sabre light tanks are gonna be O.P
Not really, they are faster than some land speeders tho, which is hilarious.
Your bitterness about Imperial Fists rules is way over the top. I wonder if there is someone in your local gaming group who exclusively spams Warders in the rite of war with the rerolling invulns. Yes they are a jack of all trades, but they are also master of none (Except the stone gauntlet). Their wargear is all good, and their special units are good, but neither are best in class (again with the exception of warders in the stone gauntlet). Storm Shields are awesome, I understand the value of 3++, but they only have regular terminators to put them on, as opposed to Salamanders who can bring 3++ on an elite Legion specific terminator unit, or other legion specific terminators who don't have 3++ but who are better for other reasons. Again not saying that Salamanders are better than fists cause of Firedrakes, but just that the fist units are not individually overpowered. Its just that every singe one has value and is good in some way. Assault cannons are very good, especially with the +1 to hit from the fist legion trait, but they have 24in range. Many things can strike at an assault cannon heavy support squad without getting shot back at. You just shoot them from afar. If you're not taking assault cannons on heavy support squads they are still good, but they are also 20 points a cannon, or 25 if you have to upgrade to heavy flamer first (looking at you contemptors). When you are paying 10pts more for an Illiastus Assault cannon on your dread compared to a kheres assault cannon, I would not call that cheap. The legion trait and reaction are both very good, though again, there are other legion reactions and traits that are arguably better; It's just that the imperial fists get it all.
All of this is to say that I agree with your assessment that Imperial fists may be the best legion overall, and its because everything they have across the board is good. BUT, I think the salt is undeserved because when you play against imperial fists on the table top they cannot bring everything they have in their arsenal, and furthermore, each individual thing they can bring is not cancerous in it's own rite. In highly competitive settings where people are really optimizing lists, I can see the fists coming out ahead for all the reasons you outlined in the video, but if it's your average Joe going up against fists at his Local gaming store and the fists are not running stone gauntlet then there is no need to get salty. It will be a good game with plenty of back and forth. Conversely if you are the fist player, just don't bring stone gauntlet in friendly games. As long as you don't do that you won't be "that guy"
The imperial fists have a bunch of "good" rules but nothing broken (cept stone gauntlet), mainly because its really hard to leverage ALL their rules. Templar are really only good if you take the ROW, and then you need to spend a ton on land raiders for each unit. +1 to his with bolt weapons is good, but basically useless on all the legion unique units. And the 3++, assault, and solarite all cost a good amount. Like 20p per gun is no cheep change. His "super pred' he was talking about costs 40p more just to get two 24" cannons more. That range is SO tiny for a heavy support shooty tank.
@@nukethenatelore I agree completely. Just to chime in on templars specifically, they are good and perfectly usable, but compared to other elite melee infantry they are nothing special (Invictarus Suzerains are substantially better for example). And even with the rite of war rage(2) buff the enemy just has to do the disordered charge reaction to negate all the templar buffs. Very easy to counter them. And just like you said you have to pay that land raider tax in the rite of war to get any use out of it anyway. Stone Gauntlet is aids but other than that fists are fine.
@@soccernerd27 Basically all templar are good for is having a 5 man squad with a banner run into a tac squad and try and sweeping advance them. But thats in a competitive sense, I take some cause they look cool
bananas are best when they have spots!
A bit less salt would be nice xD but anyway good overview video! Probably best out there
Im taking some fists with my alpha legion
Yea they hit, but bolters don't really kill anything
That being said, bolters are the best way to kill Warders. So, yea....
My conspiracy theory is they are overcompensating for how much they suck in 40k lol
If you think primarch duels last forever try breaking imperial fist shield lines…
I think they need a buff tbh
You have totally sold me on Imperial Fists!
Please do Space Wolves next.
I don't know who was in charge of this edition, but whoever it was they are a big fan of fists and were just stroking themselves as they made this.
That weapons list is comical.
Im a imperial fists fan too the death, i have a 40k Imperial fists army, a 30k imperial fists army, a 40k black templars army and a crimsons fist kill team......my point being i love them.
I did not want my legion to be over powered, and im salty about it because now im THAT guy...
Literally i would have taken anything i dont care, give us the 6+ extra shot on bolters like in 40k and call it a day...
Edit: what sucks is i also have an iron warriors army....
how unfortunate..
Don’t worry about it just enjoy your favourite legions you can always nerf yourself by taking weapons that don’t get benefits from their trait and not spamming great units things like that.
I’ve played a few games against IW and IF with my WE and had good fun games.
but you arent "that guy" you didnt just get into fists because they have the best rules. you like the faction and have dedicated years to painting and playing them and now youre at the top of the tier list for once. if anyone gives you a hard time over it then they are childish. enjoy being strong. its not something to be upset about lol. i have a buddy who played necrons for years. when they finally got strong in the recent 40k edition we were all happy for him because he had been at the bottom tables for years.
Who hurt you to make you so mad at imperial fist?
After playing many games of 2.0 there not that good. In practice there not as strong. Dark angels are the top dog of 2.0. snipers can kill the sarge's and anyone else of note. A 20 man unit of gray hunters and a speaker of the dead will eat everything. +1 to hit is good till you need a Las cannon to kill tanks.
From the way your speaking it seams you have not played that many games of 2.0 yet. And not many against the IF
I agree 1000%
What can Dark Angels do better? Imperial Fists spamming nemesis bolters are very strong, with scoring heavy weapons and solid walls of shields/storm shields available to them. I don't rate Dark Angels that highly, I rate them in the middle of the legions, with two strong legion specific units, a questionable one, and a lot of middling traits with ways of becoming strong vs a legion with all the tools required to excel.
@@TheOuterCircle there hexagramcracker. When I get home I will list them for you.
@@TheOuterCircle there's storm wing that can get +1 to bolter, Combi, and bolt pistols. Iron wing can reroll 1s when shooting at vehicles. Vehicles get snap shoot at BS 2. Death wing gets +1 to hit with all swords.
Plasma flamers for days.
There imperial fist+ the way to kill phalanx is lots of bolters. There at the end of the day just a marine. +1 with 20 tacs will kill a lot of dudes. I run rotor cannons at 20 strong and rip marines to shreds. 20 dispoilers with a speaker of the dead will walk right through a phalanx squad.
@@ashlevrier I'm all over the Dark Angels rules, we spent 3 hours in the brains trust last night going over every single legion trait and working out what was best and for what application. Dark Angels are good at everything, but there's other legions who are BETTER at everything, I'd call Dark Angels an almost perfectly written legion if not for one or two overpowered things.
Been playing fists for years, was kinda frustrated with how broken the rules were when I saw them cause I didnt want to be "that guy". Warders dont output too much pain but they do take it like champs, the inclusion of "Auto" on the legion trait was completely not needed, the storm shield rules and costs havent really changed between editions, full assault cannon heavy weapon teams are kinda cringe as are some of the pics ive seen of basically full assault cannon tanks. We used to be the "precision" shooting legion and now it feels like we're the BRRRRRRRRT legion.
My guess is that they wanted to push the Fists as a way to help push the Siege of Terra narrative that the Age of Darkness trailer started. Makes me wonder why the Sons of Horus got so shafted (sorry Macca but I disagree with your vid about them, you need to go back and re analysis them) as the opposite side to that trailer.
It should have been fists and iron lads considering both of them are like number 1 and 2 in terms of potency
IF discipline doesn't affect snap shots, Macca.
Why not? They are resolving a shooting attack, and it affects all shooting attacks.
Well.... at least thier magic is bad....
Oh wait TS arnt better casters than they are for some stupid reason?
Its a shame they are broken, the yellow boys are my favourite
They are not broken at all. Just good. Broken stuff: suzerain, raven guard mordayton with volkite combi, fulminator/siege tyrants, dawnbreakers. General OP stuff : lascannon heavy weapon teams and contemtors with fist and graviton.
RIP fists, its a bit hard to bring them to the table now until toned down a bit.
I painted up two sicaran punishers thinking they look cool in 1.0 and those weren't oppressive or anything.
I do enjoy most of your content. I tend to forget your strong bias against Fists though. Couldn't get through your video without getting distracted by your constant whinging about Fists being powerful, instead of showcasing their strengths and weaknesses (You say they have none...THey have a few, and my World Eaters friend exploits them. They exist.) You bitch about everything they can do is blatantly overpowered. Yes, it's very powerful that Fists get a +1 to hit when shooting bolt AND auto weapons. Other legions get crazy things as well, unfortunately not all legions, but a lot do.
I feel you strawmanned hard with your pinned comment, describing a fraction of other legions capabilities as if that's all they get, while explaining in detail if one were to abuse Imperial Fist abilities (Not one have I sought to run "OOPS all Phalanx Warders!" or "Oops I brought all bolt and auto weapons on my tank list!") that the faction is broken.
The Advanced Reaction is gimmicky. You seriously believe it's broken and unfair and overpowered? You have to move within 10 inches of me, and then I have to rely on a D6 roll to see if I can lock that unit in melee. It's only ever happened once in the two plus years I've been playing Fists. That's once per game, too. At least the Emperors Children one is far more fun. The World Eaters one is pretty good in comparison. Ultramarines can be pretty punishing. They all have their place. Fists almost force you to have a melee element in your army to make the most out of that RoW, otherwise you're wasting that RoW.
All in all there's waays to make the Legion busted, but you cannot say it's alone in being busted as cheese. I feel you're a bit too biased, though I can understand some of the salt given GW keeps giving them stuff and made them the poster boys of the Loyalist side when...Arguably the Blood Angels, or any of the 3 Initial legions who got squashed on Istvaan should have gotten the spotlight.
Shitting on them throughout the video and letting your hate and bias ooze all over it puts a bad taste in my mouth, simply trying to see what tactics are ones to avoid and others to enjoy with my army. People like you and others who've shit on the army I picked before 2.0 came out just because I wanted to try painting yellow really kills the fun.
Pretty shure you don't get the +1 hit on snapshots since it doesn't specifically say snapshots.
It says on all to-hit rolls with shooting. That's a blanket ruling.
@@TheOuterCircle Snapshots say they can only be modified by things that specifically say snapshots.
@Marbles That's rules lawyering if I ever heard it. The intent is clear.
@Marbles Exactly. It's modifying your odds of hitting, not the ballistic skill of the model firing. Pedantic? Sure. But it's how it was played in the last edition and when FAQ's they confirmed that interpretation last edition.
I was afraid that they would be strong, but not to the level laid out here. I really will need to limit myself otherwise it won't be fun for me or my opponent to play...
Rerollable 4++. Thats like a 2.5++. Their basic troops have a better invuln than some primarchs. Broken, stupidly so.
yea give them a medic and put them on a objective for another 4+fnp... but they cost points and their damage output is very limited.
The only drawback to IF is that you have to have an ugly banana collection.
Underrated comment
aahahahahah
Meh, just use an alternate paint scheme.
Commenting again just to say I hate the Imperial Fists and want to punch Rogal Dorn. Awful lore, awful rules. They weaponize boringness.
Hey ! We still have to massively paint yellow you know, I think it makes up for the rules. :P
On a more serious note, yes, it's a bit OP. You have to be really careful to avoid being "that guy".
But I like them, the strong legion trait means you are tempted to try others things: armoured assault ? Why not, our predator are nice with stock weapon. flyers ? Yes please, gimme that fire raptor... etc.
Yeah but you can cheat and paint them black with a little yellow.
GW must be trying to make up for years of Ultramarines stanning with this bathroom handy for the Imperial Fists.
Hoping the most thematically unloved boys in hazard stripes get some love from macca.
The downside to playing Imperial Fists is that I won't be able to run these broken OP units because they'll be perpetually out of stock because meta-chasers are hopping onto the bandwagon.
Also, I'm going to be judged pretty fucking hard for playing my preferred Legion, thanks to this BS power boost. This is actually why I picked Alpha Legion, btw. Once I heard of how broken Imperial Fists were I decided against playing them because I'm afraid of being the asshole who meta-chases and brings in the most OP BS in the world.
Yup. Lotta things were out of stock for well over four months on both the regular website and Forge World.
It’s a meme how terrible GW is at anticipating stock loss
This sucks, I loved Fists in 1.0 even though they kinda sucked, I just wanted us to get better, not get busted
Start playing and you ll find they are very decent and not too strong at all.
How to get started with Imperial Fists: don't. They are clearly the small-pp-needs-to-win faction. 100% lore-unfriendly (unless you count the worse novels of the Horus Heresy, which are little more than fan-fiction).
EDIT: The Imperial Fists should have been forced to take fortifications. Also, their special rules should only activate if they base-camp like always, uh...I mean remain stationary in their own deployment zone.
Shame the sons of dorn are so broken, loved them since I got into warhammer many years ago. Lord knows the GW knee jerk balance response will kneecap them back being boring soon enough
I dont really mind their strong unique units, other faction have those. The flat bonus to some of the most popular, and best, weapons in the game is a flat damage bonus. It just makes them better than their peers, and negates a lot negatives like night fighting for the fists. It's just worlds better than other armies traits.